Honda civic hybrid 2005

[Jdm_rsx]

anyone know anything about them?

actualy gas mileage is that great?

how r they in person?

im lookin to buy one probably 6 months from now or so...

tryin to get as much opinion as i can...

[strider42]

anyone know anything about them?

actualy gas mileage is that great?

how r they in person?

im lookin to buy one probably 6 months from now or so...

tryin to get as much opinion as i can...

A hybrid car is only going to be worth it if you were planning on getting the top of the line vehicle anyway. If the hybrid wasn't there, would you get the top of the line? if not, you'll be spending thousands extra to save gas, and which case it just doesn't make sense from a financial point of view. Take those thousands, put them in a high yield Cd or mutual fund, and you'd probably "save" more money. You could also get a diesel vehicle (if you live in a non california emussions state) from VW that gets better mileage than any hybrid out there (except maybe the insight, but that's a totally impractical vehicle)

My brother has a civic hybrid and they love it. I believe they get in the high 30 to low 40 mpg. Nice, but my old saturn can get in the mid 30s mpg, so how much better is it. its a nice car, but its still a civic, you know. Is a civic, any civic, worth $20k I'd say no, but that's just me.

My personal belief is that hybrids are the best marketing tool the industry has come up with. All the manufacturers are making them for one reason and one reason only: because people will pay an irrational premium for them. When they put a highbrid on a low end model, let me know. There's a reason they only put them on the top of the line models.

[Xtremehkr]

The all new Accord Hybrid. (http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=308792)

I know it's not the civic, hopefully the 2005 Civic will share some of the same features.

[mactastic]

If you buy in the next few days you can claim a $1,500 federal tax rebate on your '04 tax return. Next year the rebate drops to $1,000.

[Mantat]

Note that people also buy hybrid because its the 'good thing' to do in a world so poluted. Its a small contribution to the survival of earth but I guess by your speach that you prefer to live rich in a poluted world...

People cant think ahead more than 5 years away. This is ridiculous how the earth is getting abused, yet we still hurt it even more.

Biggest world poluter are USA, China, Russia and I am not so proud to say Canada. Even here where we are supposed to be greener than south of the border, I am surprise by the stupidity of my neigbours. People cant blame ignorance, polution is talked daily on tv and cant say its because there are no solution, there are now hybrid cars.

As someone pointed out in the serious hybrid car thread, hybrid cars will only take off once they have better performance than 'normal' cars. Until then, idiots will continue to buy poluting cars...

[jeremy.king]

anyone know anything about them?

actualy gas mileage is that great?

how r they in person?

im lookin to buy one probably 6 months from now or so...

tryin to get as much opinion as i can...


Is mileage your only concern or are you in the same utopian boat as Mantat?

I really enjoy my TDI and the mileage is wonderful (43-48 mpg). Not sure of the availability in Hawaii, but I would recommend it to anyone who wants to enjoy their "extreme" commuting. Although I tend to be on the low end of said group.

[Lyle]

The all new Accord Hybrid. (http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=308792)Good grief (he exclaimed at the $30k price tag). I'd been hoping that Honda would come out with a hybrid Accord one of these days, but I hope they'll offer that option in some of the lower-rung Accord models. I don't really need the V-6 and some of the other luxury features, and the MPG for the Accord Hybrid doesn't seem that much better than our 1999 Accord (the 4-cylinder version).

Nevertheless, thanks for the heads-up. I had missed this announcement.

[strider42]

Note that people also buy hybrid because its the 'good thing' to do in a world so poluted. Its a small contribution to the survival of earth but I guess by your speach that you prefer to live rich in a poluted world...

People cant think ahead more than 5 years away. This is ridiculous how the earth is getting abused, yet we still hurt it even more.

Biggest world poluter are USA, China, Russia and I am not so proud to say Canada. Even here where we are supposed to be greener than south of the border, I am surprise by the stupidity of my neigbours. People cant blame ignorance, polution is talked daily on tv and cant say its because there are no solution, there are now hybrid cars.

As someone pointed out in the serious hybrid car thread, hybrid cars will only take off once they have better performance than 'normal' cars. Until then, idiots will continue to buy poluting cars...

Its not about performance, its about price. Hybrids aren't necessarily better for the environment anyway. if they don't get gas mileage that is a lot better, there's no gain. Smaller engines would be the way to make the environment cleaner. They have inherently better mileage. If you buy a hybrid to save the world, you're deluding yourself. If you buy it to save gas, you're deluding yourself. They are fashion statements, political statements and marketing tools, no more no less. In the future they may have more to offer, but I just don't see any practicality in them at this time.

[blackfox]

JDM,

I have seen a few of the Civic Hybrids around, and they look identical to their regular cousins - which is not too bad imo.

I would suggest taking the time to read through this thread, however, to decide if a hybrid might be right for you:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=101254

Since I notice you live in Hawaii, I am curious what your driving habits might be, because depending on the type of hybrid technology you receive, the benefits (ie mileage) vary wildly depending on whether you do mostly city driving (stop and go) or highway cruising. There are other valid points relating to potential costs of hybrids made in the thread also, although it is not necessarily comprehensive.

Personally, I would choose a VW TDI in your shoes...excellent mileage, and quite good-looking. Build-quality seems to be improving, but mostly seems to be little things that break, being merely annoying.

You might also look at a mini. They get pretty good gas mileage for a regular car, are very cool looking and maneuverable. They also have the highest resale value of any car if you change your mind a little down the road...

good luck.

[Mantat]

Its not about performance, its about price. Hybrids aren't necessarily better for the environment anyway. if they don't get gas mileage that is a lot better, there's no gain. Smaller engines would be the way to make the environment cleaner. They have inherently better mileage. If you buy a hybrid to save the world, you're deluding yourself. If you buy it to save gas, you're deluding yourself. They are fashion statements, political statements and marketing tools, no more no less. In the future they may have more to offer, but I just don't see any practicality in them at this time.

Sorry but you are showing a lot of ignorance here. Hybrid car can make you save money, get great MPG and save the planete. How? Well, if you live in a city and almost never have to ride over 30km/h you will never start the fuel engine. When you are stalled in trafic, you will save gas too. Everytime you are in your car, that the engine is working and you arent moving, you are also saving gas... Please, prove me wrong. Tell me how I am deluding myself.

Of course there are still a long way to run before the hybrid / all electric car can be considered a perfect replacement for fuel car but we are getting there and in city transport they pay for themselves.

Thinking that environnement concern are solved by getting higher MPG is flabulation. If the emission pollute more, there is no gain.

[jxyama]

i've heard, though can't remember where, that the gas milage claimed by hybrids are somewhat inflated. i heard that EPA milages aren't really based on road tests but rather, on the exhaust analysis. since hybrids tend to have less exhaust, by applying conventional formula, the milage gets inflated. i could be totally wrong, but there are reports out there that hybrids do not come near their claimed milages...

if you want to save money on gas, get a diesel like kingjr3 said. i have a golf TDI. i've never gotten less than 38 mpg on a full tank of gas - and that's based on daily commute of 5 miles each way in cold michigan winter. during all other time of the year, i easily average 42-45 mpg on commutes. if i get on the highway, i can top 50 mpg. TDI engine costs a bit more, but i imagine two years of driving and you'll make up for that.

if you were serious about environment, i think the best option is to find a way to use public transportation. i agree to a degree that hybrid has, right now, at least, quite a bit of political statement factor in it...

[jxyama]

Sorry but you are showing a lot of ignorance here. Hybrid car can make you save money, get great MPG and save the planete. How? Well, if you live in a city and almost never have to ride over 30km/h you will never start the fuel engine. When you are stalled in trafic, you will save gas too. Everytime you are in your car, that the engine is working and you arent moving, you are also saving gas... Please, prove me wrong. Tell me how I am deluding myself.

Of course there are still a long way to run before the hybrid / all electric car can be considered a perfect replacement for fuel car but we are getting there and in city transport they pay for themselves.

Thinking that environnement concern are solved by getting higher MPG is flabulation. If the emission pollute more, there is no gain.

electric car isn't "clean" either - electricity had to be generated somehow. also, the gas engine has to run to some degree - otherwise, the battery will run out.

if you live in a city, use the public transportation.

by the way, it's another peeve of mine... this planet needs no saving. civilization as we know it may need saving, but not the planet itself. we can nuke ourselves to death and the planet itself will survive just fine without us.

[jeremy.king]

i have a golf TDI

04 Golf TDI here too. Whats your tdiclub handle/nickname? Mine is the same.

[jxyama]

04 Golf TDI here too. Whats your tdiclub handle/nickname? Mine is the same.

ha ha, i didn't know such a place existed... mine's a '01.
(though i don't drive much... 3+ years and i have a little over 25,000 miles on it... when i move to seattle, that'll put 3,000 miles on it...)

[jeremy.king]

ha ha, i didn't know such a place existed... mine's a '01.
(though i don't drive much... 3+ years and i have a little over 25,000 miles on it... when i move to seattle, that'll put 3,000 miles on it...)

http://www.tdiclub.com - great for ANY tdi owner, especially if you require service as many of those members will fix your car for the cost in parts. Really. Watched it happen at the last GTG I attended.

Me on the other hand - bought the car Aug 2, 2004. Already have 14,500 miles. Definitely enjoying the 700 miles tanks :D

[Lyle]

Its not about performance, its about price. Hybrids aren't necessarily better for the environment anyway. if they don't get gas mileage that is a lot better, there's no gain. Smaller engines would be the way to make the environment cleaner. They have inherently better mileage. If you buy a hybrid to save the world, you're deluding yourself. If you buy it to save gas, you're deluding yourself. They are fashion statements, political statements and marketing tools, no more no less. In the future they may have more to offer, but I just don't see any practicality in them at this time.I agree that (based on what I've seen) the current crop of hybrids aren't that much better than non-hybrids, in terms of saving gas, the environment, the world, etc. and they're more of a "fashion statement" at this point. But I might consider buying one anyways in order to encourage Honda (and other automakers) to continue developing hybrid engine technologies. After all, if the Accord Hybrid were to (hypothetically) not sell very well, they (Honda) wouldn't have much motivation to put more R&D into it, would they?

Thinking that environnement concern are solved by getting higher MPG is flabulation.It was worth reading through the posts in this thread just to read this gem. "Flabulation" is my new favorite made-up word.

[Mantat]

electric car isn't "clean" either - electricity had to be generated somehow. also, the gas engine has to run to some degree - otherwise, the battery will run out.

if you live in a city, use the public transportation.

by the way, it's another peeve of mine... this planet needs no saving. civilization as we know it may need saving, but not the planet itself. we can nuke ourselves to death and the planet itself will survive just fine without us.

Please, stop arguing about this, you are just showing a lack of hybrid car education! First of all, an hybrd car can roll without ever starting the engine. Much of the power needed to move the car is taken back when the brakes are used and it recharges the batteries.

I live in Québec, here we have 'clean' energy. Everything (99%) is produced from hydro-electricity dam so its technicaly clean and renewable. Of course we could argue about the climatic changes and ecological destruction of these huge dams. But I have to agree that if the electricity is mainely produced by coal/nuclear powerplants, it just move the problem elsewhere.

As for saving the earth, its a humanization of an unliving object. Its totaly right and correct to treat it as a living thing.

[strider42]

Sorry but you are showing a lot of ignorance here. Hybrid car can make you save money, get great MPG and save the planete. How? Well, if you live in a city and almost never have to ride over 30km/h you will never start the fuel engine. When you are stalled in trafic, you will save gas too. Everytime you are in your car, that the engine is working and you arent moving, you are also saving gas... Please, prove me wrong. Tell me how I am deluding myself.

Of course there are still a long way to run before the hybrid / all electric car can be considered a perfect replacement for fuel car but we are getting there and in city transport they pay for themselves.

Thinking that environnement concern are solved by getting higher MPG is flabulation. If the emission pollute more, there is no gain.

Oh come on. how am I showing ignorance. The hybrid civic costs thousands more than a regular civic. You will use the gas engine, caus ethe battery power isn't infinite and needs to be recharged. The city mileage isn't infinite just because its a hybrid. You will never get the mileage the manufacturers claim, you will not save money, and the mileage isn't so impressive that its going to make a huge difference (and in many cases, ther are more fuel efficient cars available that use regular engines)

Also, you know what hybrids do, they help the manufacturers meet cafe standards, and subsidize the higher poluting vehicles. Maybe not so true with toyota and honda, but definitely a concern overall. Don't believe me. Then tell me why subaru just reclassified the outback as a truck, or the fact that the PT cruiser and other car based tall wagons are classified as trucks. its specifically so they can circumvent the Cafe standards and put higher polluting vehicles on the road without repurcussions. Toyota is coming out with hybrid SUV's, and you can bet it will help their fleet mileage, while suckering people into the top of the line, while making the regular engines less important to clean up.

Its not so simple as "its a hybrid so I save gas and that saves the planet". if you've bought into that, you are exactly what the manufacturers want. They could make more fuel fuel efficient regular engines, they could just produce smaller engines that get the same mileage as the current hybrids (they did in the past, old toyota carollas could get around 40 mpg, my silly saturn used to get 38 when I bought it, about the same as a civic highbrid, and it costs 9 grand less than the civic, and it works out even better when you take insurance costs and financing costs into consideration). If you want to save the planet, get a bike and take the bus. A hybrid won't do much good.

Hybrids and other alternative technologies have a LONG way to go before actually being practical in terms of saving money, gas or the planet. They just aren't that impressive and cost way too much (while suckering you into buying the top of the line when a base model would do you fine). I'll take the 5000 bucks I'll save getting a lower model and put it in the bank. We'll see who comes out ahead in 5 years when you take into account not just the gas, but the higher insurance premiums you'll pay because your car is worth more. What's more, I'll keep my car for longer than most too, meaning I'll pay way lower insurance rates, while not contributing to the environmental problems caused by merely purchasing a new car and all its new plastic and metal.

So you see, its not as simple as you portray. And calling me ignorant just shows your bias. I'm willing to listen to the arguments that contradict my point of view on the subject, but when you revert to an attack on me before you attack my position, it tells more about you than me.

[Xtremehkr]

I know someone who owns a Civic Hybrid, and their results are at least 45mpg, with everything on and passengers. For single commuting they are getting anywhere from 49 to 55.

I rented a Prius on an expedition to Arizona earlier this year, travelling slightly above the speed limit I averaged 56 mpg. That was with everything running.

Diesel technology is an alernative to Hybrid technology, but how are the prices?

A Civic Hybrid is about $20,000 and comes with tax incentives. Being a SULEV vehicle, it's drive train parts are warrantied to 150,000 miles. Does the diesel match that?

[jxyama]

Please, stop arguing about this, you are just showing a lack of hybrid car education! First of all, an hybrd car can roll without ever starting the engine. Much of the power needed to move the car is taken back when the brakes are used and it recharges the batteries.

obviously, you are fairly knowledgeable. i will respect that, but no need to get snobby about it.

a hybrid car cannot roll "without ever starting the engine." the battery will run out at some point, unless you supply energy to it externally. braking cannot physically provide enough energy to keep the battery charged.

also, i will add that the large battery in the hybrid is not without its share of environmental consequences.

[jxyama]

Diesel technology is an alernative to Hybrid technology, but how are the prices?

A Civic Hybrid is about $20,000 and comes with tax incentives. Being a SULEV vehicle, it's drive train parts are warrantied to 150,000 miles. Does the diesel match that?

there are some advantages to diesel, at least to me personally...

1) my diesel engine added about $1,500 to the cost of the car. i do not know how much hybrid adds to the cost, but given the need for a fairly complicated battery, i'm guessing more?
2) diesel engines require less oil changes than regular engines.
3) personally, tax incentives do not matter because i don't itemize.
4) diesel has more torque, which is a concern for some, i imagine.

the stink about diesel engine has been noise and pollution. newer engines are noisier than regular gas engines but are a lot better than before. also, as far as pollution goes, i think introduction of biodiesel will definitely help the cause.

when i was buying a car, i wanted the best milage car as possible. the only hybrid available at the time was honda insight, which was a 2-door semi-sports car. i wanted a 4-door car, preferably a hatch, so TDI golf was a no brainer for me. if the civic hybrid had been out at the time, it would have gotten a strong consideration...

[Xtremehkr]

The batteries used in the Hybrid are simple D Cells from what I have read, and probably won't need to be replaced. Hybrids are only sold as the top of the line model and come with everything you can imagine included. See my link above.

Hondas in general have longer intervals inbetween required oil changes. It's 7500 miles for my current Acura.

Diesels are torquey, but can never hope to match the torque of an electric engine. Hybrids are going to come out in many variations, refer to the link above again. The new Accord is a mild hybrid, it improves both mileage and performance and it is the best performing Accord in the lineup now, while having the fuel efficiency of a Civic.

[jeffy.dee-lux]

4) diesel has more torque, which is a concern for some, i imagine.


whoa! haha, if its torque you want... lol, i'm always bringing this up. Electric Motors have MAD torque! The toyota prius puts out 295 lb-ft from 0-1200rpm. That's more peak torque than a ford expedition (actually i think that comparison will no longer be valid with that SUV getting a new engine this year, whatever, you get the point) and it is immediately available, right off the line. Sure the peak power for the electric motor (the product of torque times engine speed) only works out to about 85hp cause the torque peters out at higher rpms, but that's when the gas engine takes over, hence one of the beauties of hybrid drive trains. If you compare the power bands of electric motors and gas engines, you'll see they compliment eachother very nicely.


Mantat, they're quite right about the gas tank needing to be tapped at some point. If we were able to just charge up the battery once, turn that energy into kinetic energy and then get it all back again when we use the brakes, that would solve a lot of problems in our society. All the energy that a hybrid uses comes from the gas, a hybrid just makes better use of it. Nevertheless, that energy is lost in many ways, and the gas tank still dries up eventually.

Anybody saying that small engines just make more sense than a hybrid doesn't really get it. Sure the current examples don't seem to pay off, they're still expensive and the gains in fuel efficiency don't blow the doors off. Keep in mind, for one thing, that this technology is about 5 years old. Give it some time.
But just think about the concept of a hybrid. All it really means is that its a gas engine accompanied by an electric motor and battery pack. With this set up, for one thing, the engine can automatically shut off when its not needed. So no more idling, makes really great sense no? And second, instead of losing all your kinetic energy as heat in the brakes when you come to a stop sign (happens pretty often eh?), you can recapture this energy and use it again when you come off the stop. That makes sense too, wouldn't you say?

You can apply this concept to anything really, make a tiny little efficient engine even more efficient by having it shut off when not needed and recapturing the braking energy. Same with a diesel. In fact i just heard today that ford is preparing a concept that uses a hybrid diesel PZEV engine, but the link was broken, apparently ford got angry at the leak or something. We should find out about that at NAIAS in january.

Check out this thread from last week about hybrids:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=101254

lol "can destroy humanity but you can't destroy the planet" -- Ian Malcom, Jurassic Park

[jxyama]

um, i was making a comparison to "regular" cars...

electric motor will not provide much torque at higher rpm, as stated, and the gas engine would take over, i guess... that is a nice idea. something i didn't know. but to say electric has more torque at 1200 rpm is not really useful, is it?

please don't get flame-y over this. i don't think hybrid is a waste. i'm just pointing out what i know. there's no need to make condenscending posts or laugh at others in order to prove your point.

VW recommends the oil be changed every 10,000 miles (or once a year) for my diesel, by the way.

[Mantat]

Ah.. typing from work make me say silly things!

Yes, I know that you cant live for ever on batery but they still have a good life. But the most interesting thing when I said that most people wouldnt even have to use fuel is that here (Montréal), and I dont know hwo much it could be translated to other cities, a lot of people drive for less than 20km per day. This means around 10km per trip which is way withing the range of the battery.

Just for kick, I did a mesurement of the distance from my home to my workplace: 16km. During rush hours, its a 45mins drive. Top speed is around 70km/h for about 1min then it will drop to around 40km/h for about 5mins then drop bellow 20 for the rest of the trip. I can clearly see how people in my situation would benefit from an electric car sicne so much of the transportation is done at low speed. I am not even livin in the city, for people in town, it would about about the same amount of time but without ever driving over 30km/h.

Dont take this personal, I didnt state that you were ignorant, just ignorant about hybrid car and your line about torque power clearly pointed that out. For myself, I know almost nothing about car and all I know is about hybrid/electric cars...

Creating more fuel efficient cars isnt the solution, fuel reserve are dropping fast while demand is increasing every months. One day there wont be enough fuel so no matter how efficient your engine is, it will have nothing to feed upon. In a recent conference analyst pointed 2040-2045 as the end of all known fuel reserve.Fuel will be over priced way before that! That is why its important to invest right now in these kind of technology. And I personnaly put my money where my mount is, I bought for 10% of my income in shares of green company (especialy electricity production).

Diesel engines have their merit, they are super resistant and will never let you down, unless you happen to live in Canada where it will freze for half of winter... I was considering buying a Smart (look at its fuel efficiency ;-) ) but the price tag is a bit too high 19k$can and I am scared of all these frozen diesel engines stories, I dont want to be late for work!

Finaly, investing the 5000$ in stock right now is a very bad idea, Unless you pin point some very undervalued company you will lose money in the next year. So I would gladdely take you bet, even more so since the price of fuel here is at around 0,92$can / liter which is ALOT compared to you guys!

[GroundLoop]

obviously, you are fairly knowledgeable. i will respect that, but no need to get snobby about it.

a hybrid car cannot roll "without ever starting the engine." the battery will run out at some point, unless you supply energy to it externally. braking cannot physically provide enough energy to keep the battery charged.

also, i will add that the large battery in the hybrid is not without its share of environmental consequences.

I owned a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid. This car will NEVER roll on electric power alone. So far, only Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive vehicles (Prius, Lexus RX400h, and Ford Escape Hybrid) allow for electric only motion. I am not sure about the hybrid pickup trucks, but I assume you don't really care about them.

As far as mileage, I was consistently getting 48-50mpg (even in the winter where mileage typically drops due to the cold). If you want the best mileage with the most comfort, get a new Prius.

Hickman

[jeffy.dee-lux]

um, i was making a comparison to "regular" cars...

electric motor will not provide much torque at higher rpm, as stated, and the gas engine would take over, i guess... that is a nice idea. something i didn't know. but to say electric has more torque at 1200 rpm is not really useful, is it?

please don't get flame-y over this. i don't think hybrid is a waste. i'm just pointing out what i know. there's no need to make condenscending posts or laugh at others in order to prove your point.

VW recommends the oil be changed every 10,000 miles (or once a year) for my diesel, by the way.

ya sorry dude, i just got a little excited at the mention of torque. that's always my main point in promoting hybrid tech over at the mustang site, cause those guys like torque. Very true, diesel's have better torque than gas cars.
About high torque at low rpms not being useful, you can make good use of that torque simply by using tall gearing.
Anyways, the most important thing is that a diesel cycle can have a higher efficiency than the Otto cycle (thermodynamics exam yesterday...) cause diesels can get a much higher compression ratio. So obviously, the ideal would be a small diesel engine that can automatically shut off and recapture braking energy.
Talk about making a compromise between the various voices in this thread.

Mantat, what was that conference you mentioned about running out of fossil fuels? If its actually legit, that'll surprise a lot of people. Including Michael Crichton who seems to think we're never gonna run out of anything... i always thought he was a smart man, now he just wants to justify his over-indulgence.

and ya, the hybrid pick-ups from GM are mild hybrids and can't roll under electric power alone.

[Abstract]

Hybrids are great. Cameron Diaz has nine Prius' while regular folk who also want to help the world have to wait on the Prius "waiting list" to get theirs. (B**ch.) :mad:

I like hybrids, but I don't like the idea of large hybrid engines or hybrid SUVs. It'll just be used as an excuse for people to justify their SUV purchases, or the purchase of a car with a massive engine that burns gas like some burn Zig-Zags.

I wouldn't buy a hybrid because it saves gas. I'd buy it because it helps mitigate the effects of our (humans) driving around in our huge chunks of metal --- much larger than needed.

[mactastic]

If California legislators would decide whether hybrid drivers could drive solo in the carpool lane it would be one more incentive. My brother-in-law just bought a Civic EX SE, but he probably would have bought the Civic Hybrid if he could have had assurances that he could drive it in the carpool lane solo. He's an outside sales guy in the Bay Area, and being able to drive solo in the carpool lane would have given him an advantage over other salespersons with traditional engines in their cars. It also would have saved him probably 30-60 minutes a day in commute time. It's hard to put that kind of savings into a dollar amount, but how much is your time worth?

Just a thought.

[Mantat]

Mantat, what was that conference you mentioned about running out of fossil fuels? If its actually legit, that'll surprise a lot of people. Including Michael Crichton who seems to think we're never gonna run out of anything... i always thought he was a smart man, now he just wants to justify his over-indulgence.

Cant remember where I saw it, else I would have pointed it out... Stupid memory! I think it was a conference in Montreal or Québec, max 4 months ago. I saw the repport on the news (SRC).

[veedubdrew]

The Civic is a relatively bad example. The Prius is a better use of hybrid technology, IMO. They both use drastically different hybrid systems btw.

The city mileage in my Prius is very high because of the power storage in the battery pack. I commute 13 miles each way every day. Each direction takes me over an hour, so I'm moving at a very slow pace. My Prius spends about 70% of its time in electric mode on my drive to work, getting me well over 60 MPG. It takes very little power to move the car at less than 20 MPH, so the battery drains very slowly and any regenerative braking I can pick up just extends the range.

I have had many cars, and in this type of driving they all did very poorly except for my hybrids (2000 Insight and 2004 Prius) and my electric (1999 GM EV1). My 2000 Golf 2.0 averaged 18.3 MPG during the time I had it. My Prius is quite a bit larger than the Golf and gets 60+ MPG on the same commute. So that's what, 3x the economy? Gas in L.A. is about $2.10 a gallon for the cheap stuff right now. Over 50,000 miles in my situation, the Golf would use 2500 gallons of fuel. At $2.10 a gallon that's $5250 in fuel. The Prius would use ~833 gallons of gasoline over the same 50,000 miles in my situation costing $1750. The Prius has an advantage of $3500 over the Golf in just 50,000 in *my* driving situation. Of course the Golf is a ULEV while the Prius is an AT-SULEV (90% fewer pollutants), so not only is there a savings in a huge volume of gasoline, a huge quantity of cash, but also a huge amount of pollutants.

As for the TDI, it pollutes quite a lot more than even an LEV gasoline engine, let alone an SULEV engine. When I bought my Golf GTI, I thought about getting a TDI instead of the crappy old 2.0, but the $400 timing belt changes every 40,000 miles for the TDI turned me off. Over 120,000 miles that's $1200 of maintenance that if not performed, will ruin the valvetrain of the engine. People always leave that expense out Hybrid/TDI analysis. Hybrid brakes tend to last a very, very long time as well, seeing as the electric motor does most of the braking. My Insight with 70,000 miles had 45% of its brake pads remaining, and it was mostly used for city driving. Brakes aren't cheap and my Golf was gobbling them up.

So my "political statement" is saving me quite a bit of real money (let's not forget the $2,000 deduction on last year's taxes either), reducing my personal pollution by a huge amount, all the while driving an extremely smooth and quiet mid-size sedan loaded up with cool features. I don't have to smell stinky diesel or have a vibrating floorpan/shifter/steering column either.

So while hybrids certainly won't be for everyone, they have a serious potential to save urban dwellers a lot of money and spare the environment the burning of a lot of gasoline. The save the expense of brake wear and provide a superior driving experience. And had I not loaded up my Prius with options, I could have bought it for LESS than the GTI I had, while maintaining the same equipment.

The anti-hybrid arguments here, for the most part, are based on misinformation. I love mine and will continue to buy them so long as they continue to provide the advantages over conventional autos that they do now.

-Drew



Oh come on. how am I showing ignorance. The hybrid civic costs thousands more than a regular civic. You will use the gas engine, caus ethe battery power isn't infinite and needs to be recharged. The city mileage isn't infinite just because its a hybrid. You will never get the mileage the manufacturers claim, you will not save money, and the mileage isn't so impressive that its going to make a huge difference (and in many cases, ther are more fuel efficient cars available that use regular engines)

Also, you know what hybrids do, they help the manufacturers meet cafe standards, and subsidize the higher poluting vehicles. Maybe not so true with toyota and honda, but definitely a concern overall. Don't believe me. Then tell me why subaru just reclassified the outback as a truck, or the fact that the PT cruiser and other car based tall wagons are classified as trucks. its specifically so they can circumvent the Cafe standards and put higher polluting vehicles on the road without repurcussions. Toyota is coming out with hybrid SUV's, and you can bet it will help their fleet mileage, while suckering people into the top of the line, while making the regular engines less important to clean up.

Its not so simple as "its a hybrid so I save gas and that saves the planet". if you've bought into that, you are exactly what the manufacturers want. They could make more fuel fuel efficient regular engines, they could just produce smaller engines that get the same mileage as the current hybrids (they did in the past, old toyota carollas could get around 40 mpg, my silly saturn used to get 38 when I bought it, about the same as a civic highbrid, and it costs 9 grand less than the civic, and it works out even better when you take insurance costs and financing costs into consideration). If you want to save the planet, get a bike and take the bus. A hybrid won't do much good.

Hybrids and other alternative technologies have a LONG way to go before actually being practical in terms of saving money, gas or the planet. They just aren't that impressive and cost way too much (while suckering you into buying the top of the line when a base model would do you fine). I'll take the 5000 bucks I'll save getting a lower model and put it in the bank. We'll see who comes out ahead in 5 years when you take into account not just the gas, but the higher insurance premiums you'll pay because your car is worth more. What's more, I'll keep my car for longer than most too, meaning I'll pay way lower insurance rates, while not contributing to the environmental problems caused by merely purchasing a new car and all its new plastic and metal.

So you see, its not as simple as you portray. And calling me ignorant just shows your bias. I'm willing to listen to the arguments that contradict my point of view on the subject, but when you revert to an attack on me before you attack my position, it tells more about you than me.

[Abstract]

Cant remember where I saw it, else I would have pointed it out... Stupid memory! I think it was a conference in Montreal or Québec, max 4 months ago. I saw the repport on the news (SRC).

Well you say that all fuel reserves will run out by 2045 or so, and I heard that fuel reserves will run out in 50 years.

The point is that we are going to run out of fossil fuels relatively quickly and in our lifetime. With China's population taking in cars at an unprecedented and somewhat unpredictable rate, the exact date is hard to approximate. Just know that it's happening quickly.

Problem is that China isn't worried about pollution. For them, the first step is to get an automobile onto the driveways of a very large number of people. After that, they'll worry about pollution. Just look at how long it took for North America and Europe to catch on, and we've had cars for bloody ages!

[scem0]

Problem is that China isn't worried about pollution. For them, the first step is to get an automobile onto the driveways of a very large number of people. After that, they'll worry about pollution. Just look at how long it took for North America and Europe to catch on, and we've had cars for bloody ages!

Most people haven't caught on. Look at how many hummers you see on the roads. Look at how many SUV's you see.

I've been to China, and it is sad to see how much pollution there is already... There is a constant smog over Beijing and other cities. I hope they don't make it even worse with mass cars, like in the US.

I wish there were more eco-safe methods of transportation.

scem0

[Jdm_rsx]

Hey guys much mahalo's for those posts

anyways, im still trying to figure out what i should do...

i have currently have a 2000 integra ls....temporary car

and my window just got bashed couple days ago...im sick of all the unwanted attention for the 94-01 integras....

insurance on the other hand is just INSANE...for this car...

for the amount of HP that im gettin from this motor....the gas mileage is horrible...somewhere like 20-22 mpg....

thats why i just want to get a better car with better mileage, cheaper insurance, tax isn't really a thing...that im worried about...

i think looks wise...civic is better than the prius....but ill consider both and look into it...

[veedubdrew]

If you can hold out for seven months or so, the Civic is due for a complete redesign next summer. The new Accord Hybrid has a number of advancements over the Civic and Insight hybrids. These advancements are:

Electric A/C that allows the engine to remain off at a stoplight while providing cool air from the battery pack (the lack of this was the biggest mileage killer in my Insight)

More powerful and efficient electric motor

Ability to accelerate the car at highway speeds with electric motor power while leaving half the engine cylinders deactivated for increased economy

Active engine noise cancellation through the car's stereo system

More efficient battery pack

I'd imagine all of these advancements will be integrated into the new 2006 Civic Hybrid, plus whatever advancements they make to the Civic lineup as a whole. Or if you prefer the current model, you'll probably be able to get a better deal when the new car emerges.

Something to think about if you prefer the look of the Civic Hybrid over the Prius (many do).

-Drew

Hey guys much mahalo's for those posts

anyways, im still trying to figure out what i should do...

i have currently have a 2000 integra ls....temporary car

and my window just got bashed couple days ago...im sick of all the unwanted attention for the 94-01 integras....

insurance on the other hand is just INSANE...for this car...

for the amount of HP that im gettin from this motor....the gas mileage is horrible...somewhere like 20-22 mpg....

thats why i just want to get a better car with better mileage, cheaper insurance, tax isn't really a thing...that im worried about...

i think looks wise...civic is better than the prius....but ill consider both and look into it...

[Jdm_rsx]

prius...how much did u buy yours for?

where r u from? out the door price? included tax?

hm...anything you can tell me more about it?

so since im already waitin like another 6 months or so...i should just wait till 2005 october..thats when honda release there new cars?

is it 100% that the 06 civic hybrid will have all these tuneups? or redesign??

thanks a lot

where did you hear this from?

so pretty much more effective motor? something better than 93 HP? which is the current rating...

[veedubdrew]

I'm from Los Angeles. I had to search high and low for four months to get my hands on a Prius, as they're in very high demand. But I got mine in Northern Cal at Visalia Toyota (who I do NOT recommend).

I paid $23,500-ish if memory serves. "Out the door" it was just shy of $26,000. Mine is pretty option-heavy though, and you can get them for around $20,000 if you stick to the standard model. Mine has xenon headlamps, fog lights, side torso and side curtain airbags, vehicle stability control, keyless "smart" entry and keyless ignition, floor mats, etc. The "no option" Prius still comes with power windows/locks/mirrors, cruise, ABS, traction control, CD player, keyless entry, steering wheel climate and audio controls, etc. It's a well-equipped car and is around 20k. If you want the all-out package with navi and homelink and all that stuff, they run about 26k MSRP.

The Civic Hybrid is definitely getting redesigned next summer/fall. There are no official details on the car floating around yet, but it shouldn't be too much longer before word gets out. The advancements that the Accord Hybrid made aren't guaranteed for the Civic, but I would be very surprised to see them left out. When the Civic Hybrid debuted, it advanced the IMA (hybrid) system over the Insight by a great deal. When the Accord emerged, it improved upon the Civic's system. So the new Civic Hybrid is likely to be a "Generation 4" kind of thing, improving on what the Accord has. I'd imagine it'll have quite a bit more power as the Prius, Escape, and Accord are all much much faster.

If you don't like the Prius but are set on a hybrid and can wait, I'd see what Honda has up its sleeve for 2006.

-Drew



prius...how much did u buy yours for?

where r u from? out the door price? included tax?

hm...anything you can tell me more about it?

so since im already waitin like another 6 months or so...i should just wait till 2005 october..thats when honda release there new cars?

is it 100% that the 06 civic hybrid will have all these tuneups? or redesign??

thanks a lot

where did you hear this from?

so pretty much more effective motor? something better than 93 HP? which is the current rating...

[Jdm_rsx]

if u paid 23500 for the prius...and i am from hawaii, im ready to pay 25,000

then again for 25g's, i could be like..i should've bought a is300 LOL!
i know that car has horrible mileage but money well spent? ^^ off-topic anyways..

sometimes i could careless about what it looks as long its a good car you know
however, i do like the looks on civic *undecided*

ur options are very promising...i would love those xenon lamps on the civic hybrid..hopefully the 06...and fog lights as well

how much is ur insurance? monthly? yearly?
btw, im 21, male and good driving record...

anything you dont like about ur car?

i'd probably wait to check out honda first...or wait awhile....i guess it doesnt hurt to save up more money and then do a bigger down payment right?

this time im in no rush..but i'd probably have to do my timing belt soon then
on my integra..which is what im tryin to avoid...

[Hemingray]

If California legislators would decide whether hybrid drivers could drive solo in the carpool lane it would be one more incentive.

Is it just me, or does that scenario seem like an oxymoron? If these vehicles run on gasoline at higher speeds, and you're driving in the carpool lane in order to go faster, doesn't that cancel out the whole point?

[veedubdrew]

I also looked at the IS and the 325i. Both were far more entertaining in the traditional manner, but had such drastically higher insurance, fuel, and maintenance costs to deter me from them. Both are due to be redesigned next year as well, and I didn't want to get stuck with the "old" model for two years.

There are a handful of minor things I don't like about the Prius. They are:

* No manual transmission. This is my first automatic, and I miss shifting. The design of Toyota's hybrid system simply doesn't allow it though. The Prius doesn't really have a transmission, but that's a whole other story. Basically I miss my shifting

* Lack of chassis rigidity. The Prius simply feels "flexier" than my Hondas or my VW. It's not noticeable unless you're really in tune to that kind of stuff though. I rented a Chevy TrailBlazer for a week recently, and that felt like Jell-O compared to the Prius, so it's all relative.

* Screwy option groupings. I would have really liked the JBL audio and the xenon lamps, but to get that combo I'd have to spend an additional $3,000. I miss Honda's three-tier option groups and the Americans' a la carte options.

* Soft suspension. It's simply not a very sporty setup, although it appears TRD is working on the issue for the Prius GT. If/when higher rate springs and anti-roll bars are available, I'll be picking them up. It drives more like a Camry than a Celica, if you get my drift.

Overall I'm extremely pleased with the car. Powerful, quiet, fuel efficient, and absolutely cavernous inside. My insurance runs $110 a month (perfect record, 24yo) and for comparison my Golf GTI was $280 a month in the same neighborhood (LA is pricey on insurance). So it's cheap to insure, although I don't know how much impact my stability control and side airbags have on that.

Hope that helps.

-Drew



if u paid 23500 for the prius...and i am from hawaii, im ready to pay 25,000

then again for 25g's, i could be like..i should've bought a is300 LOL!
i know that car has horrible mileage but money well spent? ^^ off-topic anyways..

sometimes i could careless about what it looks as long its a good car you know
however, i do like the looks on civic *undecided*

ur options are very promising...i would love those xenon lamps on the civic hybrid..hopefully the 06...and fog lights as well

how much is ur insurance? monthly? yearly?
btw, im 21, male and good driving record...

anything you dont like about ur car?

i'd probably wait to check out honda first...or wait awhile....i guess it doesnt hurt to save up more money and then do a bigger down payment right?

this time im in no rush..but i'd probably have to do my timing belt soon then
on my integra..which is what im tryin to avoid...

[solvs]

Is it just me, or does that scenario seem like an oxymoron? If these vehicles run on gasoline at higher speeds, and you're driving in the carpool lane in order to go faster, doesn't that cancel out the whole point?
I'm all for hybrids, but that was a good one.

The point is that they are just at the beginning of what they can do. Soon, we might have cars that get 100mpg, which will be nice considering gas prices seem to creep up faster than they go back down. For now, they are a bit trendy, and don't save you money (unless you have it for a really long time, but even then, it's negligible), and aren't that comparitively as far as their current MPG rating. But for someone who doesn't want to have to fill up their tanks every other day with a lot of city driving and stopping and starting in traffic, it can be a convenience. Plus, though it may not helping the enviroment much, it certainly isn't hurting. And even if you aren't a hippy, we all gotta breath the air and drink the water, so every little bit helps.

The Earth will be around for awhile, but the human race needs to find some alternatives, and I'm happy people like Jdm_rsx are starting now. If you can wait until the 2006 models, and can afford the extra up-front costs, there might be a new Toyota car that isn't as ugly. But do a google search for the Hondas now. There's some good info out there.

[blackfox]

JDM, as I mentioned in a previous post, you might look at the Mini, as it's small form-factor might be great for Hawaii. It is also very smart-looking and has a great resale value. It acheives 28/36 in terms of mileage, which is fairly respectable for a normal tech engine.

fwiw.

[mactastic]

Is it just me, or does that scenario seem like an oxymoron? If these vehicles run on gasoline at higher speeds, and you're driving in the carpool lane in order to go faster, doesn't that cancel out the whole point?

No, the point of a carpool lane is to help reduce congestion. It would be another savings for hybrid owners, as a reward for spending extra money you get to save time. It's not in and of itself a way to reduce emissions.

[jeffy.dee-lux]

There are two other issues i wanted to mention in comparing hybrids to diesels (even though as i've said, there's no reason you couldn't make a hybrid diesel).
One is that diesel fuel produces more CO2 per gallon burned than gasoline. While burning a gallon of gas makes 20 lbs of CO2, while diesel makes 22.5 according to the numbers on this page of the EPA's green vehicle guide:
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/about.htm
I had to sorta turn the numbers inside out for ya, but you get the idea from the table at the bottom of the page.

The other thing is sound. Living in a city, you're basically drowning in the sound of internal combustion engines. Diesels are if anything noisier than gas engines (i know they're improving, but i still wouldn't mistake the sound of a jetta tdi for a regular civic). Meanwhile, that's one of my favourite things about hybrids, the fact that when the car is stopped or driving slowly, its hardly making a noise. The other day i was downtown, looking at 3 lanes of traffic not moving anywhere for blocks, and then i saw a single black prius, surrounded by the likes of infinite fx45's and dodge rams, models that really like to announce their presence audibly. Then i tried to imagine how quiet it would be if all those cars were priuses.

[Jdm_rsx]

hopefully the 2006 prius wont be so "ugly" looking...

not that its horrible and not own able...but i prefer a car with decent looks...

any of you guys here owned integras before? why did you like'em and why not?

if ANY of you guys got any information on the new prius and civic..

please PM me or let me know, ill keep an update for this as well

for those that are interested...

when i do buy this hybrid, its going to keep for at lesat 4-5 years...hence i want a car daily driver and i want a nice family car for my family.

trying to be a homeowner and new car owners is extremely tough...

altho interest rates are low...still = )

thanks for all your time! never had such good opinion before...ppl here are wayyyyy more serious about these posts ^^