How much is Too much?!

[B2TM little bro]

Okay, I 'm a senior in high school, but I am also taking a math class @ UTK and go there four times a week so anywho, I am driving along today and there is like a big movie truck with something on it and in quotes says "Choice". Well the truck gets close and has something written on the bottom too. The bottom is written, " an aborted fetus after one trimester (10 weeks)," and then I realized that the picture was a bloody premature human with a dime next to it to show proportion of size. I was throughly disgusted by this manner of preventing abortion, it was too much. Certainly if the truck drives by a restuarant or cafe and is stopped by a red light , wouldn't one think it would upset the innoncents satisfying their hunger. Putting such a picture on a billboard or truck is totally manipulative and one way. Just for a simple effect to instill in one's mind, is it that worth it. To make people uncomfortable to make or prove a point. How much is too much?

[Ensign Paris]

That sounds a little too powerful, IMHO Abortion is something that each individual person has to make there mind up over, its a horrible subject to try and work out the correct and final answer, every situation is different.

If I had a pregnant GF (to me or someone else) I wouldn't push them into an abortion, I would leave it up to her but give her as much emotional support as she needs.

Ensign

[Durandal7]

Blech, that sounds disgusting. Do we really need images of corpses (no matter how old) driving around the city.

[Backtothemac]

Well, there are two methods of ideals here. 1) Shock everyone hoping to cause that exact effect so that people will view abortion differently, and the 2) is to offend which is the same effect.

Personally, this is a touchy subject. I am 100% against it unless in cases of rape, insest, or the mothers life is in danger. Otherwise, you play, you accept the reality of being an adult.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Otherwise, you play, you accept the reality of being an adult.

couldn't have said it better...

though the method described is certainly in question...

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


couldn't have said it better...

though the method described is certainly in question...

I agree with the method being a bit much. But, how many people see the reality of abortion? Really only the Dr. and nurse right. Maybe, if more young girls saw the reality of it, they would think the situation through a little better both before pregnancy and afterwards.

[rainman::|:|]

Evidently you guys don't get these nico-nazi "Just Eliminate Lies" anti-smoking ads... they were all over the city here, showed autopsy photos and all kinds of gross ****... finally they just put up black billboards that said "We weren't afraid to cause controvercy, just accidents. Come see what we couldn't show, www..." so i'm guessing people complained. Anyway, to the point. I do indeed think putting up ads like that, whether on billboard or truck, is disgusting. It's inappropriate to show anti-abortion ads in a setting that has nothing to do with abortion. I won't officially state my opinion of abortion, being as i'm a male (gay no less) and therefore can't HAVE an opinion :rolleyes:, but i do think women considering it should have to see that stuff. But i think that of *all* elective surgery. People have no concept of consequences anymore.

:)
pnw

[bousozoku]

There's a group in Los Angeles which owns the trucks. They went through Orlando, FL recently and were hired by Christian fundamentalists.

The only message it drove home is that those Christians are desparate people who lack the means to communicate on their own.

[Taft]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


I agree with the method being a bit much. But, how many people see the reality of abortion? Really only the Dr. and nurse right. Maybe, if more young girls saw the reality of it, they would think the situation through a little better both before pregnancy and afterwards.

Hard to believe, but we disagree again.

I very much believe in personal responsibility, and in general, I don't like the idea of a baby being aborted. But the fact remains that in certain circumstances having a baby can negatively affect a great many people, especially the baby. How many people understand the reality of not having an abortion?? Of the responsibility needed to rear a child?

And this doesn't even touch on the issue of what happens when abortion is made illegal. Did any of you see Cider House Rules??

As with most topics of personal choice, I think education is of the greatest importance in getting people to make informed and responsible decisions. But a climate of understanding and openness is also important. And we don't have either of those right now in this country.

Many anti-abortion groups and religious extremists are lying to women (http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2002/08/23/cpc/index_np.html) to pressure them into having the baby. And many pro-life groups can have just as much of an impact on a woman in the other direction. If I was a woman who was pregnant and uncertain about what to do, I'd be scared witless. These women need information, understanding, and support and should never have to fear the choice they make.

Taft

[Backtothemac]

Taft,
I understand you point completely and it is a vaild point. I would just love to see people give a baby for adoption before aborting. That is my point. Personally I think it is murder to take human life in any form. I don't see how someone could make the choice to end the life of their own child. Give it to someone capable of raising them and providing for them in a positve healthy home.

[B2TM little bro]

i agree with adoption too.....

taft you should write essays.

[B2TM little bro]

and cider house rules, was a very good movie, and i've heard a good book also, but it was disgusting when erykah badu, whom i love as a musician, became pregnant from her father, OKAY thats just wrong .... BLECH!

[jelloshotsrule]

i agree with backdawg in theory

and taft in another way

the thing is, while many pro life folks would vote for bush, saying that he is pro life... ok, makes sense. i voted for nader. because i believe that in the long run it's the changes he'd make (lessening poverty, etc) that are more fundamental and thus would drive the "need" for abortions down.

in other words, i agree that education and such are the roots of the problem, and therefore are more important, though they may not bear the same immediate results as stopping abortions by law... etc



ahh. i'm a goofy type of guy when it comes to politics...

[Taft]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Taft,
I understand you point completely and it is a vaild point. I would just love to see people give a baby for adoption before aborting. That is my point. Personally I think it is murder to take human life in any form. I don't see how someone could make the choice to end the life of their own child. Give it to someone capable of raising them and providing for them in a positve healthy home.

I'd like to see that, too. I personally think its sick that a person would go around having sex without protection or birth control with the thought that they could just have an abortion to solve the "problem." That kind of attitude shows an incredible lack of respect for life and complete lack of reponsibility.

A person needs to really consider what they are doing before getting an abortion. And needs to consider their actions leading up to a pregnancy.

Taft

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by B2TM little bro
and cider house rules, was a very good movie, and i've heard a good book also, but it was disgusting when erykah badu, whom i love as a musician, became pregnant from her father, OKAY thats just wrong .... BLECH!

that was kinda the point...

yeah, was a good movie and book. but i see it less as a movie that touts abortion as a good solution and shows moreso that people have to understand individual situations and such...

a lot of people don't realize that with anything and everything, ideals are situational/circumstantial. people make exceptions for themselves, and that's just how it is. it's not "wrong"..

blah blah blah i know

[Royal Pineapple]

but now that taft has brought up safe sex, there is NO form of birth control that is 100% effective. some come close but none is 100%, which means that there will be some accedental babies, not because of iresponcable parents just due to birth control falure, these people neadent be forced to bring a child into existance.
who am i, who are you to tell a woman what to do with her body? much less who is the government to do it?
i understand that you fell it is murder, but do you have the right to choose?

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Royal Pineapple

i understand that you fell it is murder, but do you have the right to choose?

that's your key right there....

the government tells people they can't murder, right? so for those of us who feel abortion is murder (at least in some cases), then it's the same thing basically


now don't get me wrong, i see your point. and i'm a liberal person when it comes to basically everything else. hence the nader support...

but that is the simple difference between pro choice and pro life. we disagree on when it becomes a life....

now for those who are ok with partial birth abortions.... well... got me..

[Taft]

Originally posted by B2TM little bro
and cider house rules, was a very good movie, and i've heard a good book also, but it was disgusting when erykah badu, whom i love as a musician, became pregnant from her father, OKAY thats just wrong .... BLECH!

Yeah, that was bad. But it underlines the point of abortion as an occasional neccesity.

And on the topic of incest...I think that a lot of people would be surprised at how often that kind of stuff used to go on. From my understanding, in many poorer and uneducated populations there was a very casual attitude towards incest. It wasn't at all uncommon among cousins, siblings and children and their aunts and uncles.

Have any of you ever read One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez? I don't want to misinterpret the meanings behind this astounding work of fiction, but the attitude conveyed throughout the book was that of indifference toward inbreeding. And while there was some concern from the characters in the book about the consequences of those couplings, it was directed towards the consequnces of childbirth and not towards the morality of the situation. And its a recurring theme; the patriarchs of the family in the book are cousins, and it occurs many times after that.

It is fiction, but if it is at all socially accurate, it displays an alarming sense of indifference towards relations with your kin.

And by the way, it is an amazing book, by an amazing author. His work is some of the best I've read.

Taft

[Taft]

Originally posted by Royal Pineapple
but now that taft has brought up safe sex, there is NO form of birth control that is 100% effective. some come close but none is 100%, which means that there will be some accedental babies, not because of iresponcable parents just due to birth control falure, these people neadent be forced to bring a child into existance.


I completely agree. But the problem with this, like any other situation, is that this right will be abused by unthinking and irresponsible people.

Personally, I am willing to risk this in order to give responsible people the right to make their own decisions and to protect those people in extreme circumstances.

I didn't want to bring this up because it is the area of largest contention with abortion.

Taft

[Royal Pineapple]

im gonna bring up another aspect

over population

that being said im gonna mention that we dont need too many more people in this world as it is.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Royal Pineapple
im gonna bring up another aspect

over population

that being said im gonna mention that we dont need too many more people in this world as it is.

i give you that


but there are other things we should do first... by no means would i ever advocate killing/abortion as a solution to that

[Jimong5]

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):

Birth \Birth\ (b[~e]rth), n. [OE. burth, birth, AS. beor[edt],
gebyrd, fr. beran to bear, bring forth; akin to D. geboorte,
OHG. burt, giburt, G. geburt, Icel. bur[eth]r, Skr. bhrti
bearing, supporting; cf. Ir. & Gael. beirthe born, brought
forth. [root]92. See 1st Bear, and cf. Berth.]
1. The act or fact of coming into life, or of being born; --
generally applied to human beings; as, the birth of a son.

Websters basically says that life Begins at birth, so if the abortion is done reasonably before then, I guess its fine. As for Adoption, as it stands, the orphanages are overflowing now, so there is a chance the baby may have a terrible life growing up without any parents.

[jelloshotsrule]

i mean. it's just an opinion based thing, when life begins

i hope you don't leave all your moral decisions up to a definition... ha

i hear what you're saying. it's just a different belief is all... word

[Taft]

Originally posted by Jimong5
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):


OK, while I agree with you, this is ridiculous. First, the definition of birth has very little to do with what is considered life and more importantly a complete human. Second, the people who put this in the dictionary are writers. Its their interpretation of the word and was in no means intended as their commentary on abortion. Because....Third, this is from 1913! In 1913 women were repressed and the idea of legalized abortion was a joke. A bit outdated.

Taft

[Backtothemac]

Well, here is a take for you.

I get my girlfriend pregnant. She decides to have an abortion. What happens. Can I stop her. Should I not have a say in whether my child is born or not. Should I not have any control with regard to my child?

That is the problem with abortion. It is the only absolute right that exists in the US. You see a right is a right up till it invades someone else's right. By allowing a woman to have an abortion when the father is begging not to kill his child, when he wants to raise his child, and be a father. That violates the fathers right does it not?

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Well, here is a take for you.

I get my girlfriend pregnant. She decides to have an abortion. What happens. Can I stop her. Should I not have a say in whether my child is born or not. Should I not have any control with regard to my child?

That is the problem with abortion. It is the only absolute right that exists in the US. You see a right is a right up till it invades someone else's right. By allowing a woman to have an abortion when the father is begging not to kill his child, when he wants to raise his child, and be a father. That violates the fathers right does it not?

As of course, there are ribs with any laws we have. That said, I'd be inclined to think that the percentage of that actually happening is very low. And if it's a 1 or 2%, then i'm all in favor of a couple of men suffering the "loss" of a child they wanted if it helps other women who are the victims of rape, incest, violence, etc., become the best they can be.

It doesn't make sense to me to essentially sacrifice two lives (in the case of a woman with a "child" born unto her by violence). Essentially, you're putting the woman in an intense psychological situation that doesn't allow her to be the best person she can be. She has a child that was born of violence, and the cards begin to stack up against her being a good mother, the child having a good life, etc.

In a population that's becoming more and more crowded (are we headed towards solyent green?), we can't afford to have any one else coasting through life.

My friend Chris, a VERY liberal cat, believes that women should be subsidized for abortion, with the money going to mental healthcare. Moreso than just the "counseling in the first 24hours" stuff.

Anti-abortion ZEALOTS are vicious and generally uneducated. I had a run-in with a few of them about a week ago. (Eye can tell ya all about it). Basically these people are against abortion because the Pope, the same pope who has been ignoring priet's raping kids for the past 30 years, has declared it wrong. Nowhere in the bible does it say that abortion is wrong. It's interpreted from dogma in order to capitalize on people who really don't have faith but are just god-fearing.

I think that, if you bring it down to religious scenarios, any god who would punish one for trying to make the best of their time living is a pretty crappy god, and one I sure as he!! don't wanna "worship" or have "faith" in.

Just like a god who doesn't understand "gays" (according to religion) but says he loves "everyone as equals." Go figure.

In any case, i think 99% of the problem with anti-abortion zealots is that they are usually blind christians. And that's a scary thing. During my run-in with these anti- abortion cats, I brought up very well rationed arguments, and I got yelled at, damned to hell, and eventually spat at.

I gopt out the minolta and decided to do some photojournalism.

The one guy threatened me. so I got in my car and snapped a shot of him, hiding behind his sign.

If one doesn't have the strength to form their own opinion, they'll stand silently and let other people speak for them. Look at Hitler--strong voice, weak countrymen.

These people are the same. And it's the catholics who wanna dissolve free-will!

Check out this pic of a coward. A man with no strength of his convictions. A man so weak he had to have Helvetica talk for him.

All the while, hiding behind his sign, probably subconciously ashamed of his ignorance and narrow-mindedness.

[whfsdude]

<--- pro choice here :)

and it can't be as bad as this http://www.rotten.com/

hehe its so sick to see a kids hang caught in a meat grinder but I just cant help it lol

[eyelikeart]

ooooh mikey...u opened up a HUGE can of fat, nasty worms on that one! :eek:

however, I couldn't agree more with u...

if one cannot back up their claimed convictions without the need to hide behind a mask of some sort...then I don't think they fully believe in their cause...

anyway...good story...I honestly wish I could have witnessed it firsthand... ;)