OS X Webpage Editors--Any Opinions?

[macktheknife]

I'm looking for an OS X-compatible software to create a webpage, and I am deciding between Macromedia Dreamweaver and Adobe GoLive. I am a novice at HTML, so I want a WYSIWYG editor rather than something like BBEdit. I have heard that Dreamweaver is harder to use than GoLive, so I would appreciate any opinions from current users here.

I would also welcome any other suggestions. Thanks.

[Ensign Paris]

Personally I would advise you try to learn pure HTML before using an WYSIWYG editor because once you have got used to graphical editing its very hard to move to pure coding.

Personally I would advise Golive, even if it does make bad Javascripts, I have only used DreamWeaver twice and found it hard, but I tried to use it as I use Golive :)

Ensign

[Nipsy]

BBEdit and Dreamweaver integrate very well, so you can use Dreamweaver for you WYSIWYG layout, and then use BBEdit to correct the syntactic problems inherent in generated code.

I code everything in BBEdit, and cannot sing its praises loudly enough. After learning HTML, the only thing I use Dreamweaver for is quick generation of complex page shells, which I can then tweak in BBEdit.

I disagree with Ensign Paris about moving from WYSIWYG to hand coding. I actually find that once you understand what you're doing, hand coding is quicker and easier (assuming you're going to exert the effort to make it correct!).

Of course the cost of Dreamweaver or GoLive is much more than the cost of BBEdit, and several O'Reilley books, which would be my actual recommendation.

[macktheknife]

I used to build my webpages using Navigator Gold, and I learned HTML on a trial and error basis as I tried to figure out how to make this go here, etc. I had actually saw some reviews for Dreamweaver and they were very positive. Any former novice Dreamweaver users who could give me their opinions?

Also, about BBEdit: What's the advantage of using BBEdit over say something like a basic text editor?

[Rower_CPU]

I'm a Dreamweaver fan (duh, it's in my sig), but my GoLive experience is somewhere between slim and none.

I've never found DW hard, even when I first learned it 2 years ago.

Basic understanding of HTML is definitely helpful if you ever want to figure out why your page doesn't render correctly in a particular browser.

I've slowly moved to doing more and more of my coding by hand in BBEdit, especially as I've started working on PHP.

[Ensign Paris]

The reason I think its easier to code from scratch is a simple one, using my experience with AppleScript I started by just pure coding AppleScript and then I created an App (in Facespan) that helped he create Apps really quick in kind of a WYSIWYG or a non-coding way, where as with HTML I used WYSIWYG from day one (Claris Homepage) and then PageMill and Finally Golive and BBEdit. BBEdit is great, its a good little App, but I would like a Cocoa version :) I just found it very hard to learn to code in HTML and could easily just run back to my WYSIWYG editor :) I suppose it depends on how strong willed you are. :rolleyes:

Ensign

[Choppaface]

my first editor was claris homepage, then i learned html cuz i wanted to know what was going on, and I wish I had just learned html first. bbedit is excellent, a must have. dreamweaver and golive....well whichever you feel more comfortable with. i find golive easier to use, but i find that dreamweaver has written cleaner and lighter html.

[mnkeybsness]

i love dreamweaver...any graphical based program will take time to get used to though...just have patience and start simple

[kaneda]

Dreamweaver is much better than Golive. I use Dreamweaver for work and home freelance. I used to use Golive...I hate it..

You don't need to learn raw html...just learn how to read it...and you will be fine...

[Chaszmyr]

I do web design professionally, and I prefer not to have to make extensive use of webpage creating programs.. but if i ever do use one its ALWAYS Dreamweaver.

[Sauron1440]

After starting out with Pagemill 1.0, then moving up to BBEdit coding, and now Dreamweaver MX - Dreamweaver is by far the best WYSIWYG editor I have used. (Also tried GoLive - didn't take) I would reccomend at least a working knowledge of HTML code so you can clean up Dreamweaver's JavaScript and CSS.

[macktheknife]

Thanks, guys. I think some themes emerging from this discussion are: Dreamweaver over GoLive, learn HTML first and learn it well, and you can't go wrong with BBEdit.

Well, I'm going to be able to land the academic edition of Dreamweaver for about $100, so price isn't too big of an issue for me. I think that I'll continue tinkering with HTML and get Dreamweaver along with BBEdit later.

However, I still would continue welcoming any comments or suggestions for a webpage authoring newbie.

[SilvorX]

Originally posted by Choppaface
my first editor was claris homepage, then i learned html cuz i wanted to know what was going on, and I wish I had just learned html first. bbedit is excellent, a must have. dreamweaver and golive....well whichever you feel more comfortable with. i find golive easier to use, but i find that dreamweaver has written cleaner and lighter html.
bahhhhhhh i hate claris homepage :(, im stuck with using claris homepage for the school's website (i dont have any other choice) :(

[edesignuk]

Dreamweaver all the way! :D
I can't say enough god things about it, I just love it. I've tried using GoLive 6 (BTW GoLive 6 and Dreamweaver MX are both native OSX Apps) but I just couldn't get on with it, so I stick with Dreamweaver MX.

[awrc]

Either Dreamweaver or GoLive - I've got both and after 6 months still can't decide which of the two is my favorite.

The differences? Well, GoLive has some really nice features for large site development, the Smart Objects are wonderful, and there's a lot of extensibility. Dreamweaver's not (IMHO) quite as powerful, but it's a lot more intuitive.

I'd liken it to the difference between a sports car (Dreamweaver) and a pickup truck (GoLive). Dreamweaver is sleek and nimble and fun to use, but if you plan to haul bags of concrete, go with GoLive.

I guess since you're starting from scratch I'd suggest Dreamweaver. The learning curve is a lot shorter, the UI is friendlier, etc.

Oh, and neither of them support the PHP/PostgreSQL combo for data binding. Nothing to do with your question, I know, but it's a pet peeve of mine that everyone seems to assume that if you're using PHP, you're using it to access MySQL :(

[drastik]

GO with Dreamweaver, its good and easy and makes the better code. The learning curve is very short, and I think that Macomedia is a better software maker at this point. I'm not faulting Adobe, and especialy not Photoshop and Illustrator, but I think they've let themselves get to proud and stop innovating, espcialy on the UI side of things.

[flanders]

I tried them both (golive and dreamweaver) and my all-time favourite is certainly dreamweaver. I purchased the dreamweaver/fireworks 4 studio and never looked back!

[macktheknife]

Wow. The recommendation for Dreamweaver is certainly overwhelming! However, this review from CNET seems to suggest that Dreamweaver isn't for HTML novices:

http://www.cnet.com/software/0-3227860-1205-9814588.html?tag=rev-rev

Can anyone offer their opinion as to the possibility of a HTML novice picking up Dreamweaver? Thanks.

[PyroTurtle]

from personal experiances, i've found most people that have used photoshop or anything lke that prefere GoLive when they start out...when i started i found it much easier to use that Dreamweaver, then again, i was comming from BBEdit 9and text edit before that)....i still find GoLive better for layout grids...
dreamweaver is nice, but i've found it to be alot less stable, and more inacurate with "mozilla" only coding...
you really do want to know at least some html, cause then you can throw in BBedit, change a couple of things, and you're done...otherwise there's lots of clicking and stuff....
basically, you'll learn whichever you get! it's that simple...so, which ever is cheaper and what company do you like more? then go with that...
i use dreamweaver as a last ditch now, only cause i get it for free, othwise i'd use GoLive...of cource, i still do everything in BBEdit essentially...everyone in a while a layout grid gets a little too complex...
and that sports car vs. pickup anology works really well...
oh, and dreamweaver works for the novice, it just has a steeeeeeep learning curve...

[macktheknife]

Thanks for the advice. I'll try Dreamweaver with BBEdit, a good guide, and a ton of patience.

[awrc]

Originally posted by macktheknife
Thanks for the advice. I'll try Dreamweaver with BBEdit, a good guide, and a ton of patience.

As for good guides, the 5th edition of _HTML The Definitive Guide_ from O'Reilly (which is currently titled _HTML & XHTML The Definitive Guide_) is just out. Not a bad place to start, $24.50 on Bookpool (although they don't actually have it in stock yet). This'll be the fifth copy I've owned.

I'm sure others will have their own recommendations on good HTML starter books, but this one (and the companion pocket reference, and the extremely hefty _Dynamic HTML - The Definitive Guide_, which is also due a new edition very shortly) are the only HTML books I've got that I still keep around, and I've got through quite a few HTML books in the past decade.

[macktheknife]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I'd tried the Dreamweaver demo, and I can see why it has such a following. There's definitely alot to learn in using the interface, but it's hardly as complicated as some people make it out to be. I can see, however, why some novices might find the whole program overwhelming since there's so much to learn.

In any case, I think I am going to buy a copy of Dreamweaver MX as well as BBEdit. Thanks for all the advice.

[firewire2001]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
I'm a Dreamweaver fan (duh, it's in my sig), but my GoLive experience is somewhere between slim and none.

I've never found DW hard, even when I first learned it 2 years ago.

Basic understanding of HTML is definitely helpful if you ever want to figure out why your page doesn't render correctly in a particular browser.

I've slowly moved to doing more and more of my coding by hand in BBEdit, especially as I've started working on PHP.

yeah.. im really into dreamweaver also..

many professionals out there actually say that dreamweaver is better than a lotta other editors out there because it produces code almost identical to code that would be hand coded - while golive creates less compatible code often...

ive used golive and it seems a lot less powerful to me..

glad you went with dw! have fun..

[bousozoku]

I've been using GoLive since Adobe bought the company and renamed the product (v3.2->4.0). Version 6.0 is pretty good, but the integration with other Adobe products is great.

Dreamweaver is definitely used by the majority of professionals and should be considered the gold standard, especially when working on Windows.

[macktheknife]

I was originally going to purchase the Dreamweaver MX academic edition for $99, but I discovered that for an additional $100, I could purchase Macromedia Studio MX--Dreamweaver, Flash, Fireworks, and Freehand. This sounds like a great deal.

I was going to spend the other $100 on BBEdit and a how-to HTML book. Even if I do get Studio MX, I will probably buy BBEdit and the book. I don't want to sound greedy or presumptous, but I don't want to be stupid and pass up an opportunity. Anyone with any experience with Macromedia Studio? Is this a good deal for a newbie or an overkill?

[Rower_CPU]

It's a great deal, so long as you use the other apps.

I use Dreamweaver and Flash, so it was worth it to me. If I use Freehand and Fireworks a little, great, I come out ahead.

If you have the money, go for it!

[sphereboy]

one word: DREAMWEAVER

if you like to design use dreamweaver. if you like to program go fidget with html..


dreamweaver is so easy. its fun.

[jante99]

Dreamweaver is by far the best App. Go Live produces so much unneeded code and has a bad interface. Writing HMTL code yourself give you better control, however. Doing a combination is best.

[macktheknife]

Originally posted by awrc


As for good guides, the 5th edition of _HTML The Definitive Guide_ from O'Reilly (which is currently titled _HTML & XHTML The Definitive Guide_) is just out. Not a bad place to start, $24.50 on Bookpool (although they don't actually have it in stock yet). This'll be the fifth copy I've owned.

I'm sure others will have their own recommendations on good HTML starter books, but this one (and the companion pocket reference, and the extremely hefty _Dynamic HTML - The Definitive Guide_, which is also due a new edition very shortly) are the only HTML books I've got that I still keep around, and I've got through quite a few HTML books in the past decade.

I am looking at getting three HTML guides right now: "Learning Web Design" and "Web Design in a Nutshell" both by Jennifer Niederst and "HTML & XHTML: The Definitive Guide." I have tinkered with HTML already and while I am still a novice, I don't need a lesson on how the Internet works, what webpages are, etc. I would like to know how to make cool webpages, the theory behind a good webpage, and creating graphics for my page. Has anyone read any one of these three books who could offer me their advice? Thanks.

[Codemonkey]

Originally posted by macktheknife
I was originally going to purchase the Dreamweaver MX academic edition for $99, but I discovered that for an additional $100, I could purchase Macromedia Studio MX--Dreamweaver, Flash, Fireworks, and Freehand. This sounds like a great deal.
[snip]
Anyone with any experience with Macromedia Studio? Is this a good deal for a newbie or an overkill?

I've been using Studio MX for a little while now and there are some really pleasant surprises:

- Traditionally, we've also had to keep up with upgrades/software from Adobe in order to really have a complete tool kit. Now with Fireworks MX (the feature set still amazes me), Flash MX (although LiveMotion was never a real competitor) and Freehand 10, I've not had to open up our legacy copies of PhotoShop etc. in _months_. From a bugetary perspective this is _huge_: We can now drop the Adobe line completely from our Web Production toolkit.

- Also from a budget p.o.v. we saved close to a grand CDN going with the complete studio (if not more).

Despite all that about saving money and great feature sets, the integration still seems to be a little... loose... between the apps... also the text editor in Dreamweaver, while greatly improved, imho _still_ isn't as good as BBEdit.

HTH!

Chris.

[Gaz]

It would seem everyone here has answered your question incredible well.

Here's what I would do:

1. Make a simple site just using a simple text editor. This way you will learn the syntax and also make lots of stupid mistakes (an ideal way to learn how things work).

2. Find a mag with giving away a free copy of an older version of Dreamweaver. I've seen the odd mag give them away from time to time (it's much cheaper for you this way). Start with Dreamweaver 2-4 (not UltraDev or MX). It's best to make sure you can run before you can walk. Getting to grips with static sites is a big skill. Many people try to jump into dynamic stuff and get lost as it can be a big step depending on how your mind works.

Static to to get your head round should include:
scripting
css
Also try to learn about browser compatibility (page widths, websafe colours, browser support for scripting). This are all excellent things to learn. You'd be better learning this well before moving on to big and more complex things.
Usability, so many people have NO clue about designing for this. Most of the best sites I've seen have excellent usability. Remember the best site is one people can use regardless of the wow factor.

Hope this helps. Also if you want a career in web technologies, become a usability expert, learn XML and get your head round web services (in particular .net and IBM's thingy), that's where the real money is.