Where's the accountability??

[Taft]

This thread is inspired by a few posts on these boards lately where people have just been...well...jerks.

Lets say we had all of the posters in this forum in a big field somewhere and we just started talking. Do you think that there would be as many flames?? As many huge egos? As many people shooting off their mouths? As many people teasing and berating a person for making one tiny little mistake? As many people laughing at a person posing a serious, heartfelt or honestly friendly question?

I doubt it.

The internet is becoming a place where cowards can hide behind the shadow of anonymity. The medium that so easily allows the free exchange of information and ideas is becoming tainted by the frivolousness with which the information's purveyers treat each other.

Does anyone else think that some level of accountability needs to be maintained for real conversation, debate and exchanges of ideas to take place? Is the anonymity through which people defame, debase, attack, accuse, label, and perpetrate all sort of heinous acts going to eventually take its toll on the internet??

I think its going to get worse before it gets better. And I haven't even touched on all of the spam, pr0n, hoaxes, and general trash that is peddled...ok, deep breath...lets not get started on that...

Taft

[jefhatfield]

the internet allows for freedom of speech and sometimes a more honest, less politically correct view is put forward

the most controversial threads indeed have been the ones backtothemac and i have put up on politics

amazingly, all who entered that landmine of a forum were actually quite nice overall to each other yet sometimes the views differed quite a lot and there were some four letter words and personal attacks

i know some of what was said in the name of sex, politics, and religion could not be repeated on daytime television

the early days in the first full year from mid 2000 to mid 2001 were much much worse...things are so much more civil now with the moderators;)

[Backtothemac]

Dear god call Guieness. I actually agree with Taft on this one. I personally cannot stand it when someone starts a flamewar, running their mouth, cursing, being very rude and then you find out the person is 16. Hey I am 32, I have lived. The reason I have the beliefs that I have is because I have experienced life. For 16 year olds to flame me because of things I believe is hillarious. They have never even paid tax ;)

Anyway, to hide behind an IP address and spat off at the mouth is a cowardly thing to do.

[eyelikeart]

Well...if there's one thing I could learn to live without here it would be the zealots. There are quite a number of those out there who simply see one way...never offering up an objective POV...and usually end up starting some sort of flamewar.

I agree with jef here when he says that people are able to hide behind masks here on the internet. As a general rule, most people have a wall or mask that they hold up immediately to the world...and only when they are comfortable with their environment do they let it down to reveal their true self. I hate to sound this way, but I'd almost assume the ones around here who like to start ***** up front are usually some kids getting their rocks off. Yes there are some miserable people out there who feel they should spread the wealth by pissing everyone else off...but if we know this already we should be able to ignore them right?

I dont' know...I've learned to deal with most people. If I don't like someone's comments or attitude, I ignore them...unless I receive a thread report from someone...then I usually voice an opinion.

As far as hiding behind IP's is concerned...whatever...if u want to be a chicken ***** and start trouble then run away once the fuse is lit...u need to get a life :rolleyes:

[buffsldr]

Accountability? You want to know where it is? Well, Taft, I dont know. And why should I? It's not my job to know.

Anonymously,
Buffsldr


PS Why do we have to be in a field somewhere? C'mon, a field? Why cant we meet indoors. I really dont think the second macrumors rally will be fun if it is hosted in a field.


PPS I once made an observation that relates to your point? Do you know where one of the friendliest parking lot in the world is? At a gun shop. I kid you not. Why? Because everybody knows, that everybody else is packin. I have seen it myself. It is almost comical how polite and "best buddy" everyone is in the parking lot and store. Nobody wants to be a jerk and escalate the situation.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by buffsldr


PPS I once made an observation that relates to your point? Do you know where one of the friendliest parking lot in the world is? At a gun shop. I kid you not. Why? Because everybody knows, that everybody else is packin. I have seen it myself. It is almost comical how polite and "best buddy" everyone is in the parking lot and store. Nobody wants to be a jerk and escalate the situation.

that is why the cold war thing worked so well...the usa and russia had nukes so neither side got too aggressive

i don't condone having tons of nukes to keep the peace, but in a strange way, maybe by the grace of the higher power, the two superpowers did not blow each other, and everbody else, up

so far, two people i know about have been stalked on macrumors and an employee of mine had his identity stolen by a bank teller or bank officer so hiding behind masks probably makes sense

[jelloshotsrule]

shut up you whale eating morons!


ahhhhhh. ha

i hear what you're saying. i don't see the point in jumping on people for simple mistakes or not thinking before posting or whatever.

now if someone repeatedly speaks out of his arse or something, that's different.

so my question is.... how does one really create that accountability?

should it be a moderator controlled accountability? or an arn/blakespot controlled situation? or something different entirely?



ps. the first line is a quote from snl... word.

[Taft]

Originally posted by buffsldr

PPS I once made an observation that relates to your point? Do you know where one of the friendliest parking lot in the world is? At a gun shop. I kid you not. Why? Because everybody knows, that everybody else is packin. I have seen it myself. It is almost comical how polite and "best buddy" everyone is in the parking lot and store. Nobody wants to be a jerk and escalate the situation.

Ha! That's too funny.

Maybe computer users should be required to hook themselves up to a device that delivers an electric shock on command by other users. Then payback is just a click away. I bet the internet would a much more polite place then...even if it was feigned.

Taft

[Taft]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule

so my question is.... how does one really create that accountability?

should it be a moderator controlled accountability? or an arn/blakespot controlled situation? or something different entirely?


Thats the tough question. I've seen the issue addressed in newspapers before and they only say that theres a problem, not how to fix it.

I guess this is the nature of the beast. While the internet remains a place where you can go online anonymously, we'll have this problem. And with all of the online privacy advocates out there, I don't think we'll be seeing any more personal information float around on the internet for some time. At least until it gets more secure. And that is probably a very good thing.

But it has its downsides, and this lack of accountability is one of them.

Taft

[Wes]

Originally posted by Taft


Ha! That's too funny.

Maybe computer users should be required to hook themselves up to a device that delivers an electric shock on command by other users. Then payback is just a click away. I bet the internet would a much more polite place then...even if it was feigned.

Taft

CNN 2007:

Newsflash, Bill Gorman, New York City, a suburban 16 year old boy died while getting into an argument on the internet. He was burnt to a singe as somebody clicked to shock him; causing his EIOD (Electric Internet Order Device) to malfunction and send 600 kilowatts (enough to power his house for months) through his body.

[Ifeelbloated]

That's one of the reasons I quit AOL and never looked back. I distinctly remember that day in a chat room where the insults were flying; me, "I'm paying $24.95 a month for this?"
"Yup!" came the answer.
"I must be nuts." my reply.
Next day, cancelled that crap. Hello Earthlink.

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by W-_-W


CNN 2007:

Newsflash, Bill Gorman, New York City, a suburban 16 year old boy died while getting into an argument on the internet. He was burnt to a singe as somebody clicked to shock him; causing his EIOD (Electric Internet Order Device) to malfunction and send 600 kilowatts (enough to power his house for months) through his body.
lol! A scary thought :eek:

[Choppaface]

well at a board I mod, we don't allow flaming, especially not personal insults/confrontations, nor double standards, no spamming, and things get along very well compared to some of the stuff I've seen here. they've still got short tempers, but if they go nuts, we just punt them off the board. the ages are about the same as this board too, although the oldest are a bit younger and the younger are a little older.

[Durandal7]

Actually I'm nastier in real life :D

jef, who was stalked from these boards? :eek: Or are you referring to that weird incident involving eye... :rolleyes:

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by asurace
Actually I'm nastier in real life :D

jef, who was stalked from these boards? :eek: Or are you referring to that weird incident involving eye... :rolleyes:

i know eye said he was stalked but i don't know the details...unless he was joking

i have to admit, he held the number one spot here longer than anybody on macrumors...longer than spikey, kela, john123, mischief, alphatech, dukestreet, or myself...so that made him a target

i wonder what really happened...did someone visit him or harass him at work?:(

[B2TM little bro]

ok im doing this to quit being a newbie, but i think taft should write essays

[bousozoku]

It seems to me that it's like the situation with the SUVs. People who feel overwhelmed by the traffic buy big SUVs or pickups or minivans in order to feel more powerful.

I have always tried to keep things online as they are in real life and I hope that no one mistakes my silliness for berating because I really don't believe in doing that in a hidden manner. If I think something stinks, I say it stinks.

I see a lot of people, especially at MacCentral, who go just to flame others. I also felt it was easier to win someone over if you weren't yelling at them.

Most of the people are so good here and it's amazing, with all the people, that there aren't more difficult situations. :)

[Durandal7]

Originally posted by jefhatfield


i know eye said he was stalked but i don't know the details...unless he was joking

i have to admit, he held the number one spot here longer than anybody on macrumors...longer than spikey, kela, john123, mischief, alphatech, dukestreet, or myself...so that made him a target

i wonder what really happened...did someone visit him or harass him at work?:(

I wonder if anyone will ever overtake duke as #1...

As for eye he was just joking. As far as I know he hasn't been contacted outside of MR, it seems it was just a twisted joke.

[Royal Pineapple]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Dear god call Guieness. I actually agree with Taft on this one. I personally cannot stand it when someone starts a flamewar, running their mouth, cursing, being very rude and then you find out the person is 16. Hey I am 32, I have lived. The reason I have the beliefs that I have is because I have experienced life. For 16 year olds to flame me because of things I believe is hillarious. They have never even paid tax ;)

Anyway, to hide behind an IP address and spat off at the mouth is a cowardly thing to do.
ok Back-man, ill bite this.
personally being a 16 year old i feel that i am old enough to have my own opinions aobut politics, i also see that you have lived for twice the time that i have and your opinions are legit. so there is no nead to flame, just discuss and ocasionally disagree.

now as for the taxes thing;)
i happen to be holding a full time job (40 hours a week) that is paying me $12 an hour so yes I HAVE paid taxes. and i think that you might need to update your genralisation of a 16 year old ;)
if you just picked that number out of the blue because it was half your age than i understand and no hard feilings, in fact no hard feelings eather way:D

[Gaz]

Accountability, that I guess is one of the age old questions of the internet. It's probably a similar argument to guns. Who do you blame? The person who fired the gun, the person who sold them the gun, the person who legalised guns...the list goes on.

I think much of the problem is that it is difficult to imply certain tones in written text. Sure icons help but everyone's interpretation is different. Unfortunately the computer world allows you to do things and not care about your actions and who they might affect others.

I'm pretty new to this forum stuff and it really puts me off seeing people picking through others spelling or laying into them for a slight mis-quote. I though the whole point of a forum was to allow people with common interests to enjoy chatting with people who are similar.

It is a great shame seeing other people making fun of other peoples ideas. There are a couple of people who believe they have this great idea or they know how to solve all of Apple's problems and they get flamed. I think it's good to see people who are keen and you never know they might actually have a really great idea one day but will be put off from past experiences. Everyone here should be looking to help encourage people; if it's not a great idea, tell them how to make it better rather than where to stick it.

Anyway that's enough ranting for today and I hope this might actually make someone think twice. As the saying goes, unless you have something worthwhile to say, don't bother saying anything at all.

Gaz

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Royal Pineapple


i happen to be holding a full time job (40 hours a week) that is paying me $12 an hour

hey, congrats...that is a great job for a 16 year old...is the legal working age in texas 15 1/2 also like in california?

i worked, thru a friend who ran a restaurant, who hired me under the table when i was 14 or just turned 15...best experience of my life...then $3.35 in 77-78 was really good money and a concert with several large name acts was six dollars where one could see pink floyd, kiss, the ramones, zep, deep purple, donna summer, bee gees, stones, kinks, bowie, john denver, neil young...etc...all the big names of their time

but since my parents had a store, i worked there under age ten and now i will be forty next year and in some ways, i feel i have only started working

i guess i will have to have my second 30 years working in a rest home playing grunge classics to the old folk on an acoustic guitar:p

i have a friend that does the rest home circuit and the old people like to rock...it does not really matter what style you play for them...music is music and it's very theraputic...she gives them 60s hippie classics and it gets the old people going:p

[buffsldr]

I disagree with the previous post (edit: I mean Gaz, not Jef...but then I havent read Jef's...maybe I can flame...errrr..... disagree with him too). I think it is okay to challenge another's ideas. I dislike people coming to this site and posting their solution to apples problems without a real understanding of apple's corporate strategy and position in the market place. Apple is not trying to be the big dog in computers. And they dont need to be the big dog to be profitable.

I mean, come on, we all have ideas for how things can be better. As a product development engineer, i understand that you totally need to understand the market into which you are launching products. So... peeps that come to this site and have hollow, poorly thought out suggestions, should be challenged. Ridiculed? No. Flamed? No. But challenged, yes.

As far as who to blame? How about we start with the dude on the keyboard? What was that whole gun analogy about? ISPs dont flame people, people do? To me its clear that the guy typing should be blamed, unless he is not accountable for his actions (eg mentally challenged.... ) Cant you just see that? Some dude with a helmet flaming you over more iWalk posts. Oh, that would suck.

[Durandal7]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Dear god call Guieness. I actually agree with Taft on this one. I personally cannot stand it when someone starts a flamewar, running their mouth, cursing, being very rude and then you find out the person is 16. Hey I am 32, I have lived. The reason I have the beliefs that I have is because I have experienced life. For 16 year olds to flame me because of things I believe is hillarious. They have never even paid tax ;)


Is it okay if the 16 year old agrees with you? ;)

[awrc]

Originally posted by Taft
The internet is becoming a place where cowards can hide behind the shadow of anonymity.

Is becoming?? IS BECOMING?? The Internet has been a place where cowards can hide behind the shadow of anonymity for as long as I've been on it (1989 or so) and I'm sure those who've been around longer can remember it having its fair share of jerks before then too.

The only difference I've seen over the years is the average intelligence of the people we're talking about has dropped as the Internet has become more widely available. Back around 1989-1990 you only got flamed by well-educated college-age or adult jerks. Nowadays anyone who can (barely) type their own name can flame and call people names.

In the old days it was at least entertaining - there was often some wit mixed in with the bile. One way of looking at it is that these people will always be with us, it's just that the dumbing down of the Internet means we have to make do with 2nd rate high school jerks who can't spell rather than quality educated jerks who can.

Not disagreeing that it's undesirable, but I've seen people saying "something must be done" about this for thirteen years. Small battles are won here and there, but overall nothing changes.

Besides, MacRumors already has most of the stuff people deploy to stop this stuff in place - you need to register to post to the forums, there's moderators. There's not much else you can do beyond giving the moderators bigger clue sticks and asking them to wield them more frequently.

[Durandal7]

Originally posted by awrc

The only difference I've seen over the years is the average intelligence of the people we're talking about has dropped as the Internet has become more widely available. Back around 1989-1990 you only got flamed by well-educated college-age or adult jerks. Nowadays anyone who can (barely) type their own name can flame and call people names.


That's why we come to this site. The majority of major posters here are well educated and civil except when provoked by an idiot. At least the idiots who show up leave after a few posts.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by buffsldr
I disagree with the previous post (edit: I mean Gaz, not Jef...but then I havent read Jef's...maybe I can flame...errrr..... disagree with him too). I think it is okay to challenge another's ideas. I dislike people coming to this site and posting their solution to apples problems without a real understanding of apple's corporate strategy and position in the market place. Apple is not trying to be the big dog in computers. And they dont need to be the big dog to be profitable.

I mean, come on, we all have ideas for how things can be better. As a product development engineer, i understand that you totally need to understand the market into which you are launching products. So... peeps that come to this site and have hollow, poorly thought out suggestions, should be challenged. Ridiculed? No. Flamed? No. But challenged, yes.

As far as who to blame? How about we start with the dude on the keyboard? What was that whole gun analogy about? ISPs dont flame people, people do? To me its clear that the guy typing should be blamed, unless he is not accountable for his actions (eg mentally challenged.... ) Cant you just see that? Some dude with a helmet flaming you over more iWalk posts. Oh, that would suck.

you may be an engineer, like me, both with several college degrees and such, but what you bring out on these forums are polite yet personal attacks...mentally challenged???...i think the posters, whether educated like you or me, or young and still in school are actually doing their best

as the oldest and one of the most frequent posters here, i see you as a troll, and one angry person and we don't need your anger to foul macrumors and hurt feelings...go the some other flamewar site and off these thread and arn, close this thread please

[Durandal7]

I agree jef, this thread should be closed. Having been on this forum for a while also I have noticed some trolls as you put it lately. I have been staying out of most of the political discussions and discussions on Apple as a company because of trolls. Several of the users posting here condemning other users are hypocrites as they themselves are the fastest to attack another member. Calling us mentally challenged does not add credit to your opinions and only serves to piss us off...

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by asurace
I agree jef, this thread should be closed. Having been on this forum for a while also I have noticed some trolls as you put it lately. I have been staying out of most of the political discussions and discussions on Apple as a company because of trolls. Several of the users posting here condemning other users are hypocrites as they themselves are the fastest to attack another member. Calling us mentally challenged does not add credit to your opinions and only serves to piss us off...

i agree with you 100 percent, arn or blakspot, please close this thread

[arn]

MacRumors' policy has been to discourage pointless flame wars.

(This conversation, I think is fine... no one is personally attacking one another...)

If you feel certain posters or posts are out of line, "trolls" or otherwise offensive, you should report the post to the admins (use the link on every message). I can't read every message... and unless it gets reported, I may never see it.

The amount of trolls/personal attacks on these forums are in your hands. Report things that bother you. I (or the moderators) may not agree... but in many cases we will, and either warn the user or shut down the thread.

Disagreements and arguements are unavoidable and in fact, essential to a discussion forum... but personal attacks, and flame-bait is not and will be dealt with (if it is reported).

arn

[solvs]

People suck.

And are stupid.

Nothin' you can do but accept it.

[vniow]

Originally posted by solvs
People suck.

And are stupid.

Nothin' you can do but except it.

Glad you could contribute to this otherwise uninformative thread. :rolleyes:

I've been in maybe a couple sorta-flamewars, but nothing really serious. The fake ones are fun, but the genuine ones are a waste of server space. If you want to start a serious flamewar do it in PMs or better yet e-mail, Macrumors is not for this sort of thing. I wholeheartadly agree that we wouldn't do this if we all were in the same room together. Hmmm...maybe that's not a bad idea, maybe once a year we could have a Macrumors meeting event.:p



-V

[solvs]

Originally posted by edvniow

Glad you could contribute to this otherwise uninformative thread. :rolleyes:
-V

That was actually my point.

People are going to b*tch and argue and flame and have nothing better to do on a Saturday night. I think it's kinda fun to hear others opinions on things. As long as they have something to say, preferably imaginative or at least somewhat intelligent (or at least have something constructive to say).

But I've been on the Internet a long time, and people seem to love hiding behind their keyboards. I usually skip over the flame wars here (and to a lesser extent MacCentral, I never really post there), but everyone has their opinions, no matter how uniformed. That's the best thing about a public forum. And sometimes the worst thing.

That being said. I don't support most forms of censorship, but this being more of a privately owned domain (pun not intended), ARN (and the other moderators) have the right to do what they want with this place. Whether someone posts something illegal, immoral, hurtful, or just plain stupid, it's the moderators right (and responsiblity) to delete, filter, block, or edit what they deem inappropriate, and upon signing up here, we are agreeing to this.

Freedom of speech is a right, but with these rights come responsibilty, whatever your age or nationality or intellect may be.

Not everyone realizes this.

(Did that sound better than "people suck, get over it"?)

-insert witty, sarcastic remark here-

[vniow]

Thanx, that does sound a lot better than
People suck

And are stupid

Nothin' you can do but except it.

Thanx for not flaming me. No offense meant. :)

[solvs]

Originally posted by edvniow
Thanx, that does sound a lot better than
People suck

And are stupid

Nothin' you can do but except it.

Thanx for not flaming me. No offense meant. :)

No prob, "it's all cool".

I can't really get away with saying that, can I? If you heard me say that in person, you'd be laughing really hard right now.

Anyway, I'm actually surprised I haven't been flamed more. Unlike most of the "cowards" who hide behind mean (and often idiotic) words, I have no problem putting myself out there, and I have no problem giving my opinions. As you can all see by my signature.

Just warn me if I start getting too personal.

PS: Some people spell really horribly, and use bad grammar. Ease up guys. Unless it's really bad, let it go. Not everyone speaks English good (sic), some are youngins, some speak other languages. Some are really tired. Some people just need to pay more attention, but it's okay unless it's completely unincomprehendidable.

[vniow]

Originally posted by solvs


No prob, "it's all cool".

I can't really get away with saying that, can I? If you heard me say that in person, you'd be laughing really hard right now.



I agree. Sarcasm is very hard to tell in writing. The smileys help it somewhat, but it's still difficult to tell when somebody's being serious or not. :)

[Choppaface]

the problem is most people woud rather get into d*ck measuring contests than report posts to the mods. there are quite a few posters who insult people for asking simple questions, demonstrating insufficient knowledge while making an argument, etc etc. I've been reluctant to report anything because at times the mods even participate in this, and from what I've seen it appears if you buy a mug you can do and say whatever you want on this board and you're behavior will go unchecked....

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by solvs
-insert witty, sarcastic remark here-

Sorry, I tried. For some reason the management doesn't like the general public editing other peoples posts. :(

Guess it's for the best, it probably would have ended up sounding more sarcastic and far less literate than anything you would have dreamed up anyways. ;)

---

As pointed out, yes it's hard to transmit the true feeling behind the responses, sometimes even the smilies fail to evoke the proper feelings behind a post. And the day/life people at the other end have had can affect how they translate poorly worded responses.

Though it does suck that people are more willing to commit to written words -- in a far more permanent medium -- things that they would never say in the meat world.

[Taft]

Why were people suggesting this thread be closed?? Was it what buffsldr said?

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong on this one, that he was saying that the only time a person wouldn't be accountable for their actions would be if they were mentally challenged. The example he gave afterwards was a hypothetical not accusing the people here of being mentally challenged.

And I agree with buffsldr. The people posting should be held accountable unless an extreme circumstance exists (like buffsldr's example of mental deficiencies). And thats why the moderator system is setup here.

My point is that even with moderating, people are still going to be jerks. And the annonymity of the internet makes people feel more comfortable doing that.

I think there was a big misunderstanding on this thread. I'd hate to see animosity between members resulting from a thread I started. :( Lets all just get along!

Taft

[Durandal7]

My advice is not to reveal your e-mail address to the masses :(

[Taft]

Originally posted by B2TM little bro
ok im doing this to quit being a newbie, but i think taft should write essays

Thanks for the plug! I really enjoy writing. These forums often act as a release for me. And as with any release that doesn't involve bodily functions (ick! I mean the creative kind.), an inevitable bit of artistry will begin to form.

Everybody here has their own style. And you eventually come to identify each person with the creative style they exhibit on these forums. We are all crafting our own portfolio of writing wether or not we realize it.

I'm glad someone here likes my style. :)

Taft

And welcome to the land of non-newbies!

[arn]

Originally posted by Choppaface
I've been reluctant to report anything because at times the mods even participate in this, and from what I've seen it appears if you buy a mug you can do and say whatever you want on this board and you're behavior will go unchecked....

Not true. DemiGods hold no special rights to flame/go crazy. Nor do moderators.

The reason that they go "unchecked" is because you didn't report it. I'm serious here. I have a day job. I don't have time to read even 1/2 the threads in here even when I do have free time.

If it's a legitimate complaint, it will be dealt with.

arn

[Gaz]

Originally posted by buffsldr
I disagree with the previous post (edit: I mean Gaz, not Jef...but then I havent read Jef's...maybe I can flame...errrr..... disagree with him too). I think it is okay to challenge another's ideas.

As far as who to blame? How about we start with the dude on the keyboard? What was that whole gun analogy about? ISPs dont flame people, people do? To me its clear that the guy typing should be blamed, unless he is not accountable for his actions (eg mentally challenged.... ) Cant you just see that? Some dude with a helmet flaming you over more iWalk posts. Oh, that would suck.

I have to agree with you on the challenging thing, as long as it's done in a reasonable way (which most people do anyway).

In terms of who's to blame, I was pointing a finger at moderators who should *this is difficult to do realisticly* try to control posts before they get out of hand. It's not uncommon to see people bitching at one another for almost page, this should be caught by moderators and they should try to help mediate things. That's in a perfect world mind where people don't have anything better to do!

Oh yeah, forgot to say. Ultimately the responsibilty is with the poster and the other people. If you see someone getting flamed why not try and just calm it down!

[jelloshotsrule]

i don't see what buffsldr said that got him attacked so hard.... am i missing something?

i think taft's point of "even with moderating, people are still going to be jerks..." is the key

am i the only one who realizes that people in general are jerks? that a lot of people are just selfish pricks?

cause it seems simple to me. just as on here, if you go into a place with a lot of people, many of them are jerks.. no way to really get around that.

that's all there is to it in my opinion

ps. who's durandal? asurance?