Virus Attack!

[Steven1621]

I work for the IT department at my college, and the virus situation is fully out of control at the present moment. This "sasser" virus is everywhere. I have seen it spread to a freshly installed PC within five minutes. It's is the most tedious thing to remove since it is spread over the network so easily. It even disables the installation of SP2 which would correct the issue. All this really shows how great it is to have a mac. You never quite realize it till you have 67 laptops waiting to be fixed. We had one mac in for repairs the other day...someone spilt a beer on it and fried the HD. Man, I love my mac...

[Hodapp]

You must work for a pretty incompitent IT staff or poorly ran college if you're still having issues with Sasser... Good god.

[ChrisBrightwell]

Who the hell puts a fresh and un-patched Windows installation in the wild and forces it to fend for itself?

If you just sat and watched that machine be taken over by Sasser, you have no business working IT.

[virividox]

sasser whoah blast from the past!!! someone better get these unpatched pcs of the network!!!

[Earendil]

Who the hell puts a fresh and un-patched Windows installation in the wild and forces it to fend for itself?

If you just sat and watched that machine be taken over by Sasser, you have no business working IT.

The guy has His college and '08 in his tag, I'm going to assume since my own graduating year is 2008, that he is a freshmen. While I am tempted to apply for the IT department because the department knows jack shiet about Macs, I wouldn't have a clue how to take care of a sassar virus, and would expect the department heads to know what they are doing in that regard. I wouldn't want this board telling me I have no business in the IT department though...To his his own I suppose.

And in case you didn't notice, he said College campus. That means that people do whatever the hell they want with their computers, and bring all kinds of crap in. To an IT department, College campuses have to be Hell.

~Tyler

[Hodapp]

And in case you didn't notice, he said College campus. That means that people do whatever the hell they want with their computers, and bring all kinds of crap in. To an IT department, College campuses have to be Hell.

Right, but there is no way any real college does not have managed switches for 90%+ of the ports on the network. Any IT department that doesn't have its head lodged firmly up its own ass blocks that kind of junk at the port itself. In Sasser's case, you only need to block three ports. There's no excuse for a Sasser infestation anywhere outside of a dorm room's local LAN of two or three computers.

Unbelievable.

[Steven1621]

Right, but there is no way any real college does not have managed switches for 90%+ of the ports on the network. Any IT department that doesn't have its head lodged firmly up its own ass blocks that kind of junk at the port itself. In Sasser's case, you only need to block three ports. There's no excuse for a Sasser infestation anywhere outside of a dorm room's local LAN of two or three computers.

Unbelievable.

Do take into account that everyone has just come back from winter break where they had 37 days to ruin their computers. Never doubt the average PC user's ability to know absolutely nothing about how to tend and update their computer. You're right that it was only on few of the campus LAN's, and the computers were concentrated in those areas. The computers that were sending out sasser were blocked. It's just a slow process to fix them all up.

(note also that the freshly installed PC i mentioned had virus protection on it, and it detected the virus, but it was only a few minutes after it was put on the network. it was being patched while it was detected, so we do know what we're doing.)

I work at the Student Helpdesk, which as the name suggests, is maned by students. We can generally take care of most problems, leaving the pros do handle more important stuff. We didn't really know how to handle this on our own, so the pros had to help us.

[ChrisBrightwell]

[...] And in case you didn't notice, he said College campus. That means that people do whatever the hell they want with their computers, and bring all kinds of crap in. To an IT department, College campuses have to be Hell.
No, I noticed the "college campus" bit -- but it's a friggin' IT dept. They have to have managed switches and such that are capable of detecting and shutting down a machine with malicious intent.

My point is that if they're having problems with Sasser, and he just watched it, he has no business in IT. Any half-ass IT dweeb knows that you do *not* put a fresh XP install on the network -- especially if you read Slashdot or one of the similar sites and see story after story about how fresh XP installs last less than five minutes in the wild.

What IT dept doesn't have an XP "patch" CD w/ all the critical patches on it? What IT dept doesn't have some policy in place to ensure that simple things like firewalls and security patches aren't in place to ensure that trash like this Sasser mess stays contained?

I stand by what I said earlier -- but any "IT dept" that is still dealing with Sasser needs to fire everyone, from the top down, and start over. I know that if my group were still dealing with Windows problems that were patched months ago, I'd be far to embarassed to mention it online, let alone claim to work with/for them.

Then again -- I've been a DOS/Windows user for 15 years. I've only been using Apple's Mac OS for the last two or so. Perhaps I take for granted how easy it is for a Windows machines to be setup, patched, and placed on a LAN w/ no worries of infection.

[Hodapp]

I stand by what I said earlier -- but any "IT dept" that is still dealing with Sasser needs to fire everyone, from the top down, and start over. I know that if my group were still dealing with Windows problems that were patched months ago, I'd be far to embarassed to mention it online, let alone claim to work with/for them.

LOL! My thoughts exactly!

[Steven1621]

LOL! My thoughts exactly!

Yikes. You guys are being rather harsh. Please note my above post and see that we are addressing problems that were created over the winter break as we have been on campus for two days. All you have mentioned is what we have done to address the problem.

[Hodapp]

You don't have any kind of system in place to distribute vital security updates? At a real college with a real IT staff when a major vulnerability is released, they scan their network to see who is vulnerable, then contact those people. Prevention is the key here, it is literally amazing to me that there was no effort to roll out patches to all these people... Sasser was a pretty serious worm.

[Steven1621]

You don't have any kind of system in place to distribute vital security updates? At a real college with a real IT staff when a major vulnerability is released, they scan their network to see who is vulnerable, then contact those people. Prevention is the key here, it is literally amazing to me that there was no effort to roll out patches to all these people... Sasser was a pretty serious worm.

Just because someone is told to update doesn't mean they will...

I get calls from people who say the email is broken because their pop up blocker presents them from opening reply windows....and our average SAT is something like 1420... :)

[Hodapp]

Just because someone is told to update, doesn't mean they will...

This is where you telnet in to the switch and turn off their port. When they call you, you explain that they won't be allowed back on the network until they patch their machine. They'll be at your desk in less than 10 minutes to pick up a disc with the updates on it.

Do you go to some kind of junior college or somewhere that just got access to the internet? I literally cannot fathom how you're still dealing with Sasser.

[Steven1621]

This is where you telnet in to the switch and turn off their port. When they call you, you explain that they won't be allowed back on the network until they patch their machine. They'll be at your desk in less than 10 minutes to pick up a disc with the updates on it.

Do you go to some kind of junior college or somewhere that just got access to the internet? I literally cannot fathom how you're still dealing with Sasser.

and that is exactly what we do, but the unpatched system isn't noticed till infected.

ha ha that assumption is borderline insulting considering i go to one of the best colleges in the country. i'm not sure why it's back. i don't know everything that is going on with our IT. they told me it is a "sasser-like" virus. it's been dealt with, but there certainly was a sudden influx.

[Hodapp]

and that is exactly what we do, but the unpatched system isn't noticed till infected.

Uhh... you can run a simple port scan on ports 5554 and 9996 to see what machines are vulnerable and which aren't. It probably wouldn't take more than 10 minutes to scan your entire junior college network.

...Unpatched systems aren't noticed until the infection, lol, I'm emailing this thread to everyone else I work with, this is hilarious.

I'm starting to think Steven1621 is playing a joke on us.

[ChrisBrightwell]

Yikes. You guys are being rather harsh. Please note my above post and see that we are addressing problems that were created over the winter break as we have been on campus for two days. All you have mentioned is what we have done to address the problem.The problem is that you're being reactive rather than proactive.

You should be pushing updates down to people instead of expecting them to know what to do and expecting them to pull down the udpates.

Their ignorance is your responsibility.

[brap]

Their ignorance is your responsibility.
It's not his responsibility at all. Students, on a helpdesk, are in no position to tell the (full time, salaried) IT department how to do their jobs no matter how incompetent they are.

Look to the chain of command, and give the poor guy a break.

[Steven1621]

Uhh... you can run a simple port scan on ports 5554 and 9996 to see what machines are vulnerable and which aren't. It probably wouldn't take more than 10 minutes to scan your entire junior college network.

I looked into it and found that it isn't sasser we are having a problem with. that was what i thought, but it is completely different. I'm not sure what it is, but i will find out to tell you. and yes, ports are scanned, but as it can only take a few minutes to spread a virus to many computers, there were many computers infected before we could turn them off. when i fix a computer, i have to gives its port access again. recall again that we are all just getting back from break and a lot of this was created without our control. with 1500 students on campus, 60 with this virus isn't that much. but it is a ton when you are fixing them all!

[emw]

Uhh... you can run a simple port scan on ports 5554 and 9996 to see what machines are vulnerable and which aren't. It probably wouldn't take more than 10 minutes to scan your entire junior college network.

...Unpatched systems aren't noticed until the infection, lol, I'm emailing this thread to everyone else I work with, this is hilarious.

I'm starting to think Steven1621 is playing a joke on us.This thread is extremely disconcerting. Someone logs on to proclaim his delight that he doesn't have to fix all the Macs on campus, and all you people can do is jump all over him about how incompetent he is and what a POS IT department he has? He's a student help desk operator at a large university with little or no control over his IT management. He's just stuck cleaning up. Which, I'm sure, has never happened to any of you perfect people.

WTF? You should be ashamed of yourselves. :mad:

[Steven1621]

This thread is extremely disconcerting. Someone logs on to proclaim his delight that he doesn't have to fix all the Macs on campus, and all you people can do is jump all over him about how incompetent he is and what a POS IT department he has? He's a student help desk operator at a large university with little or no control over his IT management. He's just stuck cleaning up. Which, I'm sure, has never happened to any of you perfect people.

WTF? You should be ashamed of yourselves. :mad:

thank you.

BTW, there are only 1500 kids at my school

[emw]

BTW, there are only 1500 kids at my schoolPerhaps, but many IT departments don't support 1500 users...

[Steven1621]

i pointed that out because he said that i went to a large university, when that is not the case.

[emw]

i pointed that out because he said that i went to a large university, when that is not the case.Yup, got that ("he" was me) ;)

[Steven1621]

Ok, I found out what the offical situation happens to be from the IT people. There is one computer on campus that is sending out some sasser-like virus. By means of port scanning, they have a list of 120 computers that it could be. It is their policy to not turn off the ports of massive amounts of computers. They are going through each one to figure out which computer the problem is coming from. Many of the computers I am seeing are being effected by this one infected computer, but don't actually have the virus. It starts a shutdown sequence. An email was issued to students to tell him to be sure their PC is updated to Sp2, which prevents this problem.

I certainly didn't expect to have my IT department attacked by members and to have to defend what I really don't know a whole lot about.

[Mechcozmo]

Our school still is having issues with POZA. Sheesh. The IT department is 3 people at there are ~700 people total mind you, but still. My student account doesn't have enough privileges to get rid of POZA, but I have seen the executable and the registry keys. And I have seen failed infections, because POZA guesses between 2000 and XP and if it fails, "svcost.exe" crashes.

Good luck. At least you can do something about it.

[Mav451]

You guys should adopt the policy at Maryland.

While I'm not the help desk operator here, they pretty much ban you from network access until you have:
1) installed SP2 + McAfee Virus Scanner (free via office).
2) proven you do not have the virus.

When tons of people realize they're getting kicked off/banned from using the internet, that means no more AIM, no more (*ahem other stuff*). People usually get their act together when these extreme measures are taken ;)

[mkrishnan]

While I'm not the help desk operator here, they pretty much ban you from network access until you have:
1) installed SP2 + McAfee Virus Scanner (free via office).
2) proven you do not have the virus.

Hmmm...so is using Linux or MacOS or whatever considered a get-out-of-jail-free card? Or, erm, what if you're on a diff version of Windows than XP? That's an interesting one. We're talking about personally owned computers, right, and not ones the U owns?

[Mav451]

Well OSX is obviously exempt...though I can't say I've seen much more than 2-3 a dorm hall. In terms of Windows, the SP2 rule is strictly enforced. Last year, if you weren't SP1 by Fall semester ('03-'04) you were banned until you updated. Very, very effective.

"Why doesn't AIM work?"

Cuz you're a threat to the entire network (lol). Things like these get people moving/upgrading. If not by themselves, we got a team of students that can go out to the dorms to do it--of course they're paid by the hour too, so people who are looking for money to help pay for books.

[ChrisBrightwell]

[...] In terms of Windows, the SP2 rule is strictly enforced. Last year, if you weren't SP1 by Fall semester ('03-'04) you were banned until you updated. Very, very effective. [...]
So you're essentially forcing every Windows user to upgrade to XP, even if they run a fully-patched install of Windows 2000??

Do you provide a free or low-cost mechanism for them to obtain an XP license?

[mkrishnan]

In terms of Windows, the SP2 rule is strictly enforced.

So if you're running Win2K, or somesuch, you're forced to purchase XP? Or do they provide it? Very interesting. I still think it's a little goofy...my experience has always been the opposite. I haven't had virus problems on my own computers since I had my Amiga. And the virii I did come in contact with, which were immediately identified and neutralized, of course, were invariably caught by using a floppy disk on a managed computer at a university site....

EDIT: Chris, you beat me to it! :) It's funny we chose the same example. Of all the incarnations of Windows, I rather like Win2k.

[Mav451]

Oh my bad. Obviously if you aren't on XP, then the SP1/SP2 doesn't have anything to do with you. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

The OIT office does provide $10 academic copies, but that's another issue.

[Steven1621]

You guys should adopt the policy at Maryland.

While I'm not the help desk operator here, they pretty much ban you from network access until you have:
1) installed SP2 + McAfee Virus Scanner (free via office).
2) proven you do not have the virus.

When tons of people realize they're getting kicked off/banned from using the internet, that means no more AIM, no more (*ahem other stuff*). People usually get their act together when these extreme measures are taken ;)

I agree with you as do several of the IT pros that I work with. Some feel that the preventative measures they take are enough for the size of our network while others want a much stricter banning policy (like something you mentioned). There is a bit of a debate in the department.

[greenmeanie]

i could name alot of schools that have no clue what they are doing in the IT department.

[MacNeXT]

It has been about three years since i've switched. I study computer science but I often avoid Windows problems. All those stories about viruses get boring after a while. I rather discuss real CS issues (programming languages, algorithms, etc. etc.)

A couple of weeks ago a friend of mine called me up. He did a fresh install of Windows XP and it got infected immediately. With my common CS sense i told him that sounded very unlikely to me, but reading this makes me think differently.

It's a shame that the industry has to deal with these issues that are all due to bad products from Microsoft. I think I will refrain myself to comment on ANY Windows problem AT ALL from now on. But I also think that could hurt me in the future. Dealing with Windows is inevitable in the IT industry and I will look incompetent if I'm not up to snuff with these Windows issues.

This makes me feel sad.

[Earendil]

My school only recently this month implemented a client side piece of software (read:Spyware) that checks to make sure the client is running antivirus software. Mac and Linux users are exempt from the having to use the software, but we still have to log into the network now, every 24 hours... It's a pain because now, no matter what you're doing, you get booted off the network 24 hours after you last signed in. It's happened to me while uploading HW, and while playing WC3, it's a pain.

I'm not sure why they can't just log our MAC address and be done with it. Instead we get diverted to a website that asks for user name and pw, then sends us to a page to accept the rules and regulations, after accepting that we are sent to yet another site saying we are logged in, before we can go anywhere or do anything on the network.

I believe in network safety, but I think our campus just went from under secured to over secured. And for reference, we are a 1700 student private college.

~Tyler

[Mav451]

It has been about three years since i've switched. I study computer science but I often avoid Windows problems. All those stories about viruses get boring after a while. I rather discuss real CS issues (programming languages, algorithms, etc. etc.)

A couple of weeks ago a friend of mine called me up. He did a fresh install of Windows XP and it got infected immediately. With my common CS sense i told him that sounded very unlikely to me, but reading this makes me think differently.

It's a shame that the industry has to deal with these issues that are all due to bad products from Microsoft. I think I will refrain myself to comment on ANY Windows problem AT ALL from now on. But I also think that could hurt me in the future. Dealing with Windows is inevitable in the IT industry and I will look incompetent if I'm not up to snuff with these Windows issues.

This makes me feel sad.


The key word is he installed XP with outdated software. We're in the year 2005, and if he's installing XP vanilla (pre-SP1 = 2001), then what does he expect? Full protection? Its like someone installing the first version of OSX and expecting not security holes/bugs/etc.

[MacNeXT]

The key word is he installed XP with outdated software. We're in the year 2005, and if he's installing XP vanilla (pre-SP1 = 2001), then what does he expect? Full protection? Its like someone installing the first version of OSX and expecting not security holes/bugs/etc.\

Yeah stupid me, how on earth could I think it's unlikely that a freshly installed PC can get infected while doing absolutely nothing, within five minutes. I study CS, go figure... I'm not ashamed that I don't know this stuff cause I avoid Windows problem stories like the plague. As far as I'm concerned, typical Windows problems don't have ANTHING to do with Computer Science. That's the point I was trying to make.

Only too bad that there will be a point in time where people expect me to know this stupid stuff, just "because I'm a CS guy".

If I ever get to run my own business, it'll be 100% Apple and Linux, that's for sure.

[Hodapp]

As far as I'm concerned, typical Windows problems don't have ANTHING to do with Computer Science.

lol.

[stubeeef]

If anyone here is familar with Bowdoin, they can afford a brand new network every 30 days if they wanted to, and then laugh! Small and full of blue blood bucks.

[sjpetry]

i could name alot of schools that have no clue what they are doing in the IT department.
Me too, my school has a very unsafe network. Good thing I use a Mac. :)

[ChrisBrightwell]

I study CS, go figure... I'm not ashamed that I don't know this stuff cause I avoid Windows problem stories like the plague. As far as I'm concerned, typical Windows problems don't have ANTHING to do with Computer Science. That's the point I was trying to make. [...]
LMFAO.

Ignorance is bliss, I suppose. Ignorance is a lot of other things, too, but it certainly is bliss.

[Makosuke]

MacNeXT might sound a little backward, but his viewpoint is perfectly valid--he's interested in the theoretical aspects of computing (hence CS, not CIS), and so low-level implementations and conceptual issues are of more interest to him than real-world practice. That's fine, and that kind of thing does eventually filter down to the common user.

I'm sure he knows enough to be aware that any computer with a security hole, when exposed to the internet, can be compromised and infected with no user interaction. He just didn't realize that the situation with Windows has become so dire that five minutes of exposure is enough to do it.

As for the original issue: Give the guy a break. Anybody who's actually worked with universities knows that although more than anywhere they SHOULD have tight networks and strict policies (thanks to hordes of incompetent and/or malicious users), there's rarely the budget or manpower to take care of things properly, and even when there is the bureaucracy often gets in the way.

My campus (8000 students, public University) network is only this year starting to be upgraded into the 21st century, and there are still piles of ancient systems and 5+ year old sub-networks with crummy hardware plugged into the mess. The guys in charge usually want to fix it, and they know how to fix it, but actually getting that done isn't quite so easy.

[Earendil]

MacNeXT might sound a little backward, but his viewpoint is perfectly valid--he's interested in the theoretical aspects of computing (hence CS, not CIS), and so low-level implementations and conceptual issues are of more interest to him than real-world practice. That's fine, and that kind of thing does eventually filter down to the common user. *snip*

As a freshmen CS major, I can't attest to what exactly the field is about. BUT, I think MacNeXT and Makosuke are right. CS isn't "Windows Science". It's not about operating systems (though by default we do study the different operating systems, as they are an instrumental part of a computer). I managed my first semester of CS work, programming in C++, and understanding concepts all without any knowledge of Windows.I've always known Apple OS, and never touched Windows if I could help it. CS isn't about Windows, it's about computers.
But it is funny that everyone on my hall thinks I can help them with their windows problems just because I'm a CS major, and I should "know this stuff". CS doesn't teach you how to get rid of viruses, or how to make a printer work with Windows...That's the area of wizards and sorcerers ;)


~Tyler
~Earendil

[Earendil]

LMFAO.

Ignorance is bliss, I suppose. Ignorance is a lot of other things, too, but it certainly is bliss.


And interestingly enough, as a side note, it's the guys that knew "windows inside and out" and could "do anything" with their machine, that were the ones that started the first semester of CS, and didn't finish.

~Tyler
~Earendil

[Mav451]

Wow thanks for that blatantly, ignorant stereotype. I can attest to most of the CS students here (mostly b/c engineering is so close to CS); and I can tell you that most of these students who are Windows users, are successful, just as successful as a Mac user or Linux user would be.

I can't say I know any Mac users on campus that are CS students, on the other hand. They've either been a random jock (yes I found one down the hall using a Mac), or a pretty hot girl. Am I going to say that every Mac user is a jock/chick? No. I don't seek to resort to blanket statements.

But not finishing CS? I'd hold your tongue.

*I will agree with you on one thing tho.*
It does NOT take a CS major to figure out how to use Windows. Take me for example. I can't program worth a damn. I survived through Java and Matlab, but just barely. CS is more "high-level", while Windows maintenance is "low-level". It takes a lot more brains to program then to understand lil "nuances", if you will.

Its certainly is not hard to learn these nuances though, and I guess that's the point the other guy was trying to make. Certainly not as difficult as programming >> but I digress.

[notjustjay]

And interestingly enough, as a side note, it's the guys that knew "windows inside and out" and could "do anything" with their machine, that were the ones that started the first semester of CS, and didn't finish.

Wow thanks for that blatantly, ignorant stereotype

I was under the impression that he meant the guys who have the arrogant know-it-all attitude that "Hey, I'm hot stuff, I know more about Windows than you ever will, so watch me wipe the floor with you in this program" who were not prepared for the fact that, hey, Computer Science isn't about all that.

I didn't take computer science but I took computer systems engineering (1996-2000) where we studied programming in C++, Java, Verilog, and x86 assembly (now THAT's fun), fundamentals of digital logic and semiconductors, communications, CPU architecture, simulation of closed-loop feedback systems, etc., Matlab, and calculus. Lots and lots of calculus.

Advanced knowledge of Windows or modern Intel computers got you nowhere. (There was one course where if you knew how interrupts worked on the 8086, and how to use the 8259 PIC (circa 1979) you might have been able to skip a few lectures...)

Oh, and in those days, computer viruses were pretty much a non-issue as long as you didn't open unsolicited attachments. It wasn't until I was in the workforce that I was struck by my first virus (Nimda, in 2001)...

[ChrisBrightwell]

And interestingly enough, as a side note, it's the guys that knew "windows inside and out" and could "do anything" with their machine, that were the ones that started the first semester of CS, and didn't finish.
That's a pretty blatantly generalized observation -- as I'm one of "those guys" and, believe it or not, I'm still in CS. In fact, most of the folks in CS @ UAH (arguably the best CS school in the state) are Windows "buffs."

Then again -- being adjacent to an Army installation, Huntsville tends to have an affinity for Windows.

[whooleytoo]

Doesn't this thread just validate the original poster's point - that a lot of work/expertise is required to keep a network of Windows workstations virus/malware free; while on the Mac side it's trivial.

[Timelessblur]

I am friends with several EE/CS,CompE, and CS majors. I my self am just studing to be a CE (civil)
I can tell you the CS majors here at school using a Mac have some trouble with there programs when they turned it in for example it would work on a Mac and no on the PC it was check on since all the programs where run on a PC for grading. Mainly it came form the compiling with the diffent CPUs and errors that came up there. They can get though it but it some times gave them a lot of trouble and they normal when to a friend in the class to complian and test the program on there computer to make sure it worked.

The hardest part of programing is not learning the langauge since that is all just sentic. The hardest part is getting the logic stucture down. Once you get the logic stucture down it easy to learn another language. I know VB.net to a point and I have still help people in there low level CS C++ classes with out knowing any C++ language because I could see some of there logic errors.

[Earendil]

I was under the impression that he meant the guys who have the arrogant know-it-all attitude that "Hey, I'm hot stuff, I know more about Windows than you ever will, so watch me wipe the floor with you in this program" who were not prepared for the fact that, hey, Computer Science isn't about all that.

Bingo.
At least someone saw the point of my two posts, and didn't decide to take it out of context and make an argument out of it.

The idea is there people think that CS majors need a working knowledge Windows, and not just that, should be able to fix the computer when broken, but know about Viruses as well. My statements were two fold,
1. I don't have but a basic working knowledge of Windows atm.
2. Those that had an incredible knowledge of the windows OS were getting their butts handed to them by the freshmen female math majors that needed our help to start programs, but once taught, were giving us a run for our money when it came to understanding Computers, languages, and spitting it back out.

This caused a few of those "High and Mighty" Windows nerds to realize all their working knowledge of Windows wasn't going to make them good at CS, they realized what CS really was (or at least what it wasn't), and a few of them dropped the class. I'd feel pretty confident saying that the top 5 people in our 80 person freshmen class wouldn't know how to fix windows if something was drastically wrong with it.

That said, I know a lot of upper class CS majors that DO know Windows inside and out, and know how to fix just about anything. So I wasn't saying that all Windows nerds fail CS, I was just countering a few other peoples "blatantly generalized observation" that all CS majors SHOULD know Windows, on pain of being laughed at on these forums.


~Tyler
~Earendil

[ChrisBrightwell]

Doesn't this thread just validate the original poster's point - that a lot of work/expertise is required to keep a network of Windows workstations virus/malware free; while on the Mac side it's trivial.
Maintaining a network, on any scale, on any platform, is not supposed to be trivial. Keep updates running, keeping the perimiter secure ... it's work. That's why it's called administration.

Some platforms simplify and automate -- but it's still work. It still requires a fundamental understanding of the technologies involved to be well-executed. I know plenty of DIYers who have a wide-open and completely vulnerable network (or a machine plugged into a cable modem w/ no firewall in place), even if they're running OS X, because they simply don't know any better.

[ChrisBrightwell]

[...] I was just countering a few other peoples "blatantly generalized observation" that all CS majors SHOULD know Windows, on pain of being laughed at on these forums.
Try this, then: As an active member of academia and someone who will be fighting tooth and nail for a job in the "real world" in a few years, you need to take this opportunity to learn as much as possible before your ignorance (to Windows, especially) becomes detrimental to your marketability.

The desktop world, in general, runs on Windows. The server world runs on whatever is "best" from one application to another (Linux, UNIX, BSD, OS X, Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows 2003 ... the list goes on and on ...) and they all have fundamental and philosophical differences.

Think about that for a second. When you step boldy into the "real world" for one of those lucrative and evasive high-paying jobs, you won't have much choice as to which platform you work on. That will, more often than not, be dictated to you and, like it not, it's usually going to be Windows. Get used to it. Telling a hiring manager, "I neither know nor like [the operating system your project is running on]" won't put you in a very favorable position compared to the kid down the hall with a Powerbook, a Windows machine, and a Linux fileserver.

If you want to be a successful CS grad (rather than landing back in grad school immedately after graduation), you need to learn not only design patterns, data structures, and programming languages, but as many operating systems as possible -- including Windows, Linux, and OS X -- and how to troubleshoot/repair them.

[Earendil]

Try this, then: As an active member of academia and someone who will be fighting tooth and nail for a job in the "real world" in a few years, you need to take this opportunity to learn as much as possible before your ignorance (to Windows, especially) becomes detrimental to your marketability.

The desktop world, in general, runs on Windows. The server world runs on whatever is "best" from one application to another (Linux, UNIX, BSD, OS X, Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows 2003 ... the list goes on and on ...) and they all have fundamental and philosophical differences.

Think about that for a second. When you step boldy into the "real world" for one of those lucrative and evasive high-paying jobs, you won't have much choice as to which platform you work on. That will, more often than not, be dictated to you and, like it not, it's usually going to be Windows. Get used to it. Telling a hiring manager, "I neither know nor like [the operating system your project is running on]" won't put you in a very favorable position compared to the kid down the hall with a Powerbook, a Windows machine, and a Linux fileserver.

If you want to be a successful CS grad (rather than landing back in grad school immedately after graduation), you need to learn not only design patterns, data structures, and programming languages, but as many operating systems as possible -- including Windows, Linux, and OS X -- and how to troubleshoot/repair them.

I hope you weren't trying to counter my point, and are just trying to be a swell guy and give me some advice. Because if you were countering a point of mine, well, you missed it ;)

Thanks for the advice though. It is that very fact, marketability, and the simple fact that I will probably be required to program for windows computers, that forces me to explore the "dark side". I have applied for our schools Help Desk, so that I may be there and taught how to trouble shoot windows problems (as well as add some BASIC Mac knowledge to an ignorant set of people). I also do attempt to help others with Windows problems, as well as catch as much as I can from my CS classes and fellow students about the Windows OS.

I still stand by the fact that that, while a particular CS task may require working knowledge of an operating system, the point and purpose of many CS tasks has nothing to do with knowing an operating systems.

~Tyler
~Earendil

[ChrisBrightwell]

I hope you weren't trying to counter my point, and are just trying to be a swell guy and give me some advice. [...]
It was the latter much moreso than the former.

I still stand by the fact that that, while a particular CS task may require working knowledge of an operating system, the point and purpose of many CS tasks has nothing to do with knowing an operating systems.
I stronly disagree. There are a *lot* of things that are specific to each OS which allow you to make your CS solutions more or less elegant and effective than others.

If you look aruond at some F/OSS projects, I'm sure you'll find dozens of examples where a lot of time (and, in the commercial sector, money) was saved by *knowing* how the OS works and how to interact with it as effectively as possible.

Take a crash-course in inter-process communication on each of the major OS flavors. You might be surprised.

[Earendil]

It was the latter much moreso than the former.


I stronly disagree. There are a *lot* of things that are specific to each OS which allow you to make your CS solutions more or less elegant and effective than others.

If you look aruond at some F/OSS projects, I'm sure you'll find dozens of examples where a lot of time (and, in the commercial sector, money) was saved by *knowing* how the OS works and how to interact with it as effectively as possible.

Take a crash-course in inter-process communication on each of the major OS flavors. You might be surprised.

Perhaps you are referring to the programming side of CS? Truly, there are very practical reasons for knowing an operating system. I'd take you example a step farther and say that many tasks don't lose time or money, but in fact can NOT be done without a working knowledge of an operating system.

BUT, that is the practical part of CS, the job market part of CS. The Science of Computers doesn't care what operating system you are on. When a Prof teaches some one how to be a good programmer of computers, it doesn't matter what operating system you are on (as long as you know it well). The concepts, ideas, and operations of computers are more or less the same no matter the OS. Programming for each OS could be drastically different, but that's not what Computer Science is ABOUT, though it is something you learn.

~Tyler
~Earendil


Edit: Typo

[MacNeXT]

It's nice to see there are more people who somewhat share my view about the Windows <> CS thing, but I think the argument that Operating Systems don't matter in CS is false.

The Operating Systems subject I had was very interesting, but it focusses on the theoretical side. We used a Tanenbaum book that more frequently referred to UNIX, VMS and archaic systems (note me not mentioning VMS as being archaic) than Windows when explaining OS basics. There was a chapter introduced in a recent edition that specifically adressed Windows/x86' ways of doing IPC, threading, paging etc. etc.

The Windows NT branch is a very advanced and modern OS that compares very well to any other OS, and there is no excuse for not being informed about the OS'es internals when programming for Windows just because it sucks.

However, dealing with Windows has become a lot of things that CS people (or anyone for that matter) shouldn't have to deal with, like viruses and spy ware. These issues are considered to be natural by a lot of people. Obligatory virus scanners and the XP service pack 2 security enhancements are not natural at all. They are because of Microsoft's lack of good programming, and I have to deal with that. THAT's what frustrates me.

[notjustjay]

Yeah, I agree with MacNexT (and I think I remember the same Tanenbaum book...)

It's not so much that "it doesn't matter" as much as "you're stuck with what they use to teach you"... again harking back to my days in systems engineering, for example, where they taught us everything you ever wanted to know about the basic structure of an Intel x86 computer, with x86 assembly language, little-endian data encoding, the silly 64K-segments memory mapping, etc.

I remember spending a lot of time with this one board which was basically an 8086 on a board with an 8-digit LED display and a numeric keypad, and we had to program the thing in machine language. Great fun, I actually really enjoyed that. I TA'd for that course a few years later, and loved it.

Useless to you if you prefer to work with a big-Endian, Motorola architecture, but hey, it's not the specifics that count, it's the concepts.

When we learned about OS's and IPC's, forks, semaphores etc, it was a Unix variant that we learned on. (edit: there may also have been a DOS-based set of C files that provided simplified API's to help us learn...)

I don't remember learning any of the specifics of Windows administration from any courses, but we had to hold our own operating the lab computers running NT and Linux. After I graduated I felt I had a confident skillset in both those platforms (though my experience with Macs was still stuck at OS 8 levels; my first experience with OS X wasn't until 2003!)