New Apple Stores and Closings

[MacRumors]

Appleinsider lists (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=876) Oklahoma City, OK, Arlington, VA, Paramus NJ, Northbrook, IL, and Orlando, FL as new locations based on job listings at Apple.

Meanwhile, ThinkSecret reports (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0502resellers.html) that two independent Apple resellers are shutting down and blaming Apple for their inability to continue.

[t300]

Meanwhile, ThinkSecret reports (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0502resellers.html) that two independent Apple resellers are shutting down and blaming Apple for their inability to continue.

Wa Wa Waaaaaaaa...

That is a horrible excuse.

[Mord]

if they were good stores they would stay in business, i know an particularly evil apple store near me that closed down soon after the london apple store opened, they sold old software at above RRP and they sold old macs that had problems with them at extortionate prices they gave apple a bad name

[AirUncleP]

Apple stores are a great way for "others" to check out Apple products. I have to think the mall stores bring in a lot of new customers. Losing resellers is never a good thing.

[entropybran]

Apple, we need a Nashville store come on!

[njmac]

Wow, an Apple store in Paramus NJ. That will make 4 stores within a 45 mile radius! Also there is a Compusa store in Paramus with a Kick-@ss Apple section and staffed with a really great Apple Rep ( Peter). Good News for us!

[wdlove]

A loss of a business and jobs is always sad. I think that a problem for resellers is that they can't afford to have the large quantity of inventory that Apple carries. In some cases the expertise isn't as good. They also tend to not have the latest products.

[PlaceofDis]

too bad for the resellers, but who knows....

im a little surprised about the Northbrook, IL one though, that makes what four in the chicagoland area? Michigan Ave, Woodfield, Old Orchard...& now Northbrook, i might be missing one as well.....well the more the merrier i say for Apple Stores, i love going to them

[joshua_msu]

too bad for the resellers, but who knows....

im a little surprised about the Northbrook, IL one though, that makes what four in the chicagoland area? Michigan Ave, Woodfield, Old Orchard...& now Northbrook, i might be missing one as well.....well the more the merrier i say for Apple Stores, i love going to them

Dont forget Oakbrook too.

[ZildjianKX]

Wa Wa Waaaaaaaa...

That is a horrible excuse.

It's well known that Apple craps on resellers... from not giving them new products on time or enough, to not giving them price breaks when Apple drops hardware prices.

[Blue Velvet]

if they were good stores they would stay in business, i know an particularly evil apple store near me that closed down soon after the london apple store opened, they sold old software at above RRP and they sold old macs that had problems with them at extortionate prices they gave apple a bad name

Who was that then?

They're closed now – slandering them won't hurt...

Go on... dish the dirt. :)

[iJon]

if they were good stores they would stay in business, i know an particularly evil apple store near me that closed down soon after the london apple store opened, they sold old software at above RRP and they sold old macs that had problems with them at extortionate prices they gave apple a bad name
Many of you will never understand until your in someone like Tom's shoes or something like that. Now I can understand your complaint, a terrible store in London that sells old stuff and outrageous prices, that is bad. But for a credible store like Tom ran, many of you will never understand although his complaints and letters has everything making sense. I am a personal friend of Tom and I feel for him and his family and I wish him well. I know people will flame me during this whole thread but I could honestly care less cause no one knows the situation better than someone like Tom or in some cases myself.

jon

[inkswamp]

Most of the Apple resellers that I've dealt with have been a pain in the :eek: !

Seriously, every time I hear about Apple resellers closing and pointing the finger at Apple, I just want to ask them, "Well, what did you do exactly to justify your existence? You're sure it wasn't your own @#$%&* fault?"

Where I live, we had an Apple reseller that was just dreadful and they closed down a couple years ago. I wasn't sad to see them leave. The service was a joke. The sales staff was inattentive and barely knowledgeable. They catered to local Mac-using businesses with big purchase orders and treated walk-in customers as a mild irritation. A year before they closed, they brought in PCs and Windows software and pushed the Macs into the back of the store, further alienating the customers they were supposed to be serving.

I wonder how many of these resellers complaining about Apple supposedly killing their business fit this mold.

BTW, we now have a new local business serving Apple customers and they are doing such a fantastic job that they recently opened a second store in a high-traffic area of the city. I don't hear them complaining about Apple but then, even if an Apple store moved into town, I'd probably still do most of my business with the local guys. The service is that good.

[Chupa Chupa]

Another store in Arlington? Seems kinda odd, though I'm not complaining.

[achmafooma]

Appleinsider lists (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=876) Oklahoma City, OK, Arlington, VA, Paramus NJ, Northbrook, IL, and Orlando, FL as new locations based on job listings at Apple.
Hmmmm... the Washington, DC metro area already has stores in Tyson's Corner (the first Apple Store), Clarendon, Montgomery Mall, and Bethesda (mini store)...

Do we really need this new one in Arlington (Pentagon City)?

Don't get me wrong -- I'm all for expansion (and Tysons always has a lot of customers when I stop by), but adding a new store in a market with four already when so many places have none at all? Odd.

I know tons of Mac-interested people in the Roanoke, VA area who can't justify going all the way to DC or Richmond to experience/buy Apple products, and nobody else in the area carries them. Those are the kinds of places Apple should go now, since the major markets are largely covered.

[rdowns]

A loss of a business and jobs is always sad. I think that a problem for resellers is that they can't afford to have the large quantity of inventory that Apple carries. In some cases the expertise isn't as good. They also tend to not have the latest products.

wd, did you read the TS link? Both complained Apple shipped them products well after the Apple Stores had them and sold them. No mention of not being able to afford inventory, quite the contrary, Apple wouldn't supply them with any.

Apple is not playing fair with their resellers, plain and simple. They should either support them or tell them they won't and let them close up or transition their businesses.

[inkswamp]

It's well known that Apple craps on resellers... from not giving them new products on time or enough, to not giving them price breaks when Apple drops hardware prices.

Really? It's well-known, is it? And where do we get that information? From unbiased sources or from resellers themselves? Hmmm...

Apple isn't in the business of giving resellers price breaks or making life easy for them. Anyone going into that line of work with that belief is in for a big surprise. Resellers must make their business worthwhile to customers by offering excellent service and a shopping experience that makes people ignore any supposed disadvantages. Services ranks very high on the list of customer expectations. What has driven me away from most Apple resellers is not prices or inventory shortcomings, but inattentive service and a sense that the people at a given business just don't give a rip about what I'm there for.

Yes, there are exceptions, but a majority of what I've dealt with tells me that this is typical amongst Apple resellers. If Apple can do a better job and they are putting resellers out of business because of it, then I have no sympathy. If the need wasn't there, Apple wouldn't be rushing in to fill it.

[DeusOmnis]

Apple makes it so that resellers cannot sell at the same price or below what apple does. So Apple makes it silly for anyone to buy from a reseller since they can get it cheaper directly from Apple. Apple also makes sure that the resellers dont get products on time, etc etc.

To be honest, I'm convince Apple doesnt want resellers anymore and would rather just do all the selling themselves to have a stronger monopoly on their market.

[shadowfax]

OKC will be a good one. they're putting it in Penn Square Mall, one of the busier malls (for its size, which isn't huge but pretty big) in America.

That's funny, Penn Square has a waiting list of stores that's years long. Looks like they let Apple side-step that one. I hope it's big. the one in Austin is puny as hell, lol.

[PlaceofDis]

Dont forget Oakbrook too.

ahhh i knew i was forgetting one, so that makes five around here then! i never go out to Oakbrook, probably why i forgot it, :o

i think i will be visiting the Michigan Ave. store next weekend, what a fun trip!

[inkswamp]

Apple is not playing fair with their resellers, plain and simple. They should either support them or tell them they won't and let them close up or transition their businesses.

Strange. I hear these complaints about Apple not shipping products to resellers in a timely manner, but our local Apple reseller always has plenty of inventory on the shelves. You're sure there's not more to this? Sounds to me that some of these resellers might not be forthcoming in all the details.

[inkswamp]

Apple makes it so that resellers cannot sell at the same price or below what apple does. So Apple makes it silly for anyone to buy from a reseller since they can get it cheaper directly from Apple. Apple also makes sure that the resellers dont get products on time, etc etc.

What gives you the idea that resellers are in business to sell cheaper products than Apple? When in Apple's history have they offered lower prices to resellers? Why would anyone open an Apple store thinking that? Resellers should focus on service, not prices. Most people will pay a little more for good service. That's what resellers should focus on and most of them do not.

To be honest, I'm convince Apple doesnt want resellers anymore and would rather just do all the selling themselves to have a stronger monopoly on their market.

If that's true, do you think it's Apple just being greedy or do you think it's Apple finally getting fed up with the way their products have been presented to the public for so long with such lousy service? I suspect it's the latter. Think about the disputes they've had with Best Buy and Circuit City and Sears. It's not greed but a simple desire to present their products properly and with good service. More power to 'em.

[Object-X]

Oh, well. That's the way it goes in business. No one has a "right" to a certain business. They want to make money selling Apple products, that's great, but circumstances are making that a diffecult business decision. These guys are all bent out of shape and blaming Apple, but it really isn't Apple's fault. The reason they can't get product is because there isn't ANY!!!!!! Apple can't make their products fast enough. They are literally exploding on the scene and market demand is extremely high. Of course Apple is going to favor their stores, they must, it is only good business sense. They are trying to expose the general public to their products in a very hands on way and these Apple Stores are crucial to their continued success. But how many Apple stores are out of product? And then people leave mad and upset, but it's just plain old supply and demand; huge demand low supply. Apple resellers are victims of Apple's success; they want a piece of the pie but there is only so much pie to go around. I am sure if Apple had the products they would love to get them out to resellers, but they don't. They need to stock their ever increasing store presence first because this is more important for Apple's continued growth and exposure. If selling Apple hardware is your only business, well, right now that's not really a good business to be in. The small guys will die off and the larger resellers will pick up the slack; that's the way it works in the real world.

[billystlyes]

While I love the Apple stores its a shame a lot of the old time shops are going under mostly because of Apple and some of its business practices. The mom's and pop's cannot compete with Apple and the internet! :(

[wdlove]

Strange. I hear these complaints about Apple not shipping products to resellers in a timely manner, but our local Apple reseller always has plenty of inventory on the shelves. You're sure there's not more to this? Sounds to me that some of these resellers might not be forthcoming in all the details.

I'm sure that's the problem on both sides. Retailers and Apple are looking out for their own best interest. That's why the Think Secret article may not have all the facts.

[QCassidy352]

I'm not encouraged by this article about the retailers closing. True, I haven't heard apple's side, but it doesn't look good. I know an indepentent mac store near where I went to college was forced to cut back from 3 locations to 1 because of the newly opened nearby apple store. I wish Apple would fairly supply resellers and then let the buyer decide. As it is now, apple is simply leaving people with no options and that's not something any of us should be happy about.

[electric]

The Article states Mac Adam as one of the stores forced to close by Apple. IMHO Mac Adam shot it's own self in the foot. I first learned about them 5 years ago and quickly stopped using them. Their staff was even more snooty than the Apple employees and getting anything ordered was a pain in the whos it. I don't know how many times I tried them out "just one more time" but over and over they under delivered. In this instance, I belive the Apple store just offered a better alternative.

[maxp1]

The place was a pit.

Snotty sales reps, filled with ancient software and hardware. They had baskets full of dusty hockey puck mice and upgrades to Pagemaker 6 on the wall at full price. And Geoports. And ancient dead hardware in piles. The place was a disgrace. Couldn't stay in business? Try making it a place that people want to go and stock items that people want to buy. Seriously. This wasn't a supply problem it was a management problem. It was dark and dank and filled with clutter and junk. They couldn't swipe your credit card, they had to make an impression, and it cost 3% more (or there was a 3% discount for cash, still). They charged outrageous prices for simple cables, if they even had what you needed. Forget about it.

I only went in there a few times when I was really desparate, but it was always totally last ditch. I think only once did I find what I needed.

I do miss Computerware in SF, I bought stuff from them all the time. There's a reseller down the street from me, the Rosai Group, that's doing fine. But MACadam? No ***** way. Those guys stunk and it's good to see them gone.

(yes, I just registered to post this comment, not I'm not an Apple employee.)

[ASP272]

Apple, we need a Nashville store come on!

That's what I've been screaming forever! Nashville! Come back Apple!

[Doctor Q]

The big question is what the long-term effect will be as Apple stores displace independent retailers, or as independent retailers adapt to compete with Apple Stores in their neighborhoods. Each type of store has something to offer, similarly to the tradeoff between big chain bookstores and independent bookstores, each with their advantages and disadvantages. But independent stores can't always afford to compete, not having the deep pockets that a big company has to weather a lull in business or a particular store earning less than others. I'm sorry to hear accusations that Apple is being unfair to their other resellers, and I hope they resolve issues like this.

Apple stores offer some third-party products, but independent retailers often have the opportunity to adapt more quickly to local demand, offer more products that might compete with Apple's, and to provide personalized service.

[Hoef]

Another store in Arlington? Seems kinda odd, though I'm not complaining.

Yeah seems unlikely .... Is there another trendy neighborhood similar to Clarendon?

[blvdeast]

finally no more driving 45 minutes to an apple store in jersey. paramus is a great location

[duffman9000]

I'm not encouraged by this article about the retailers closing. True, I haven't heard apple's side, but it doesn't look good. I know an indepentent mac store near where I went to college was forced to cut back from 3 locations to 1 because of the newly opened nearby apple store. I wish Apple would fairly supply resellers and then let the buyer decide. As it is now, apple is simply leaving people with no options and that's not something any of us should be happy about.

Well, you do have one option and that is you have to go to the Apple store. I've shopped at both independent resellers and at the Apple store and i find they are equal in their snootiness. But yeah, the indies never have a good supply of the newest gear. I'm sure many people have gone to their local reseller, been told that there is a wait list for an item, then go to their local Apple store and find the exact same item.

[Sun Baked]

Strange. I hear these complaints about Apple not shipping products to resellers in a timely manner, but our local Apple reseller always has plenty of inventory on the shelves. You're sure there's not more to this? Sounds to me that some of these resellers might not be forthcoming in all the details.I'm sure that's the problem on both sides. Retailers and Apple are looking out for their own best interest. That's why the Think Secret article may not have all the facts.Would be interesting to see how many of these people complaining about not getting inventory have spotless credit with Ingram, and a large credit line.

[elo]

Independent retailers can compete just fine with Apple Stores if they are good enough. In NYC, many people who live downtown will bypass Apple's SoHo store (which is fantastic in its own right) to go up to Tekserve in Chelsea. Tekserve can repair anything, offers prices fully competitive to the Apple Store, and offers bundles that Apple doesn't. They also offer professional bundles (especially for audio and video applications) that are beyond the realm of what Apple touches. And the place is big, beautiful, and fun to visit.

Apple simply raised the expectations to the point that stores that some stores can't compete. It has nothing to do with pricing. (It may have something to do with delivery, but only because stores that don't sell much would be prioritized behind stores that do.) I would suggest that everyone choose the *best* store in their area, and let the economy take care of itself.

elo

[Kagetenshi]

I always find it odd thinking about Apple having an adversarial relationship with its resellers. I know that at the Cambridge, MA Apple store they've referred me several times to The Computer Loft for repairs that Apple no longer does (you should have seen the looks when I brought in a dead Newton for service) or for stuff not covered by warranty that might be less expensive there.

~J

[xsnightclub]

I have to agree with the people who do not mourn the loss of bad resellers.
Our local reseller also carries pcs, everytime I go in there the sales people do not know anything about Apples nor do carry much in stock, they will order it for you but it is more expensive than orerding online from Apple.

I would not mind paying a little more if the servicewas there, but it is not.

The Apple store model seems to be the necessary way for Apple to introduce the general public to their products, because a lot of resellers were not doing a good job at it.

I doubt it is Apples intention to kill off the resellers, as it is more likely they are trying to put their products in the best possible locations with clean, well-stocked, up-to-date stores. (that or die a slow prolonged marketshare death and be an also-ran company)

I also agree with 'sun baked', the ability to get product is very dependent on your credit history with the suppliers.

( I have to drive an hour and forty minutes to the closest Apple store, but the anticipation and service a worth it, wish there was one closer)

[Neuro]

In my experience, I've found my local Apple resellers to be quite arrogant and unapproachable - even when asked the most basic/neccessary of questions. It's like they are doing the customer a favour by talking to them...

I'd be suprised if they don't go out of business soon too.

Ironically the only Apple sales rep who was friendly, attentive and knowledgable was at PC World. But unfortunately, their stock lines are quite far behind the others, so the sales guy/store don't stand a chance of doing well with Apple gear.

I now just buy online, or go to Micro Anvika if I need a Mac peripheral quickly. Although their sales staff couldn't tell me the difference between my original Airport and a new Airport Express...

[rdowns]

Strange. I hear these complaints about Apple not shipping products to resellers in a timely manner, but our local Apple reseller always has plenty of inventory on the shelves. You're sure there's not more to this? Sounds to me that some of these resellers might not be forthcoming in all the details.

I'm sure there are other factors. Apple not playing fair with resellers is but one. My 2 local Apple resellers get new product very late. I was also a reseller for 12 years. The Apple Stores and CompUSA get them upon release.

[aquajet]

Yes, there are exceptions, but a majority of what I've dealt with tells me that this is typical amongst Apple resellers. If Apple can do a better job and they are putting resellers out of business because of it, then I have no sympathy. If the need wasn't there, Apple wouldn't be rushing in to fill it.

This is absolutely correct.

Most independent resellers I've visited cannot compete with the Apple-owned stores. And not because Apple is unfair, but because they are an eyesore, have old and useless garbage that nobody wants, and don't offer anywhere near the service that Apple does. After years of declining sales and marketshare, why should Apple care about this MACadam shmuck? What do you have to offer? Can you justify your existance? Let's see your performance record over the past 10 years, and then we'll talk.

These independent resellers that do nothing but blame Apple for their own ineptness deserve to go. Nobody cares about the nostalgic drivel about their pathetic "family" business. They lack the intelligence and creativity to compete in a changing marketplace and quite frankly, that's why they are failures.

[AnewMac]

OKC will be a good one. they're putting it in Penn Square Mall, one of the busier malls (for its size, which isn't huge but pretty big) in America.

That's funny, Penn Square has a waiting list of stores that's years long. Looks like they let Apple side-step that one. I hope it's big. the one in Austin is puny as hell, lol.

Sweet, now I can sidetrack this mail order stuff. Its about time. Dallas was just too far.

[numediaman]

ahhh i knew i was forgetting one, so that makes five around here then! i never go out to Oakbrook, probably why i forgot it, :o

i think i will be visiting the Michigan Ave. store next weekend, what a fun trip!

A Northbrook store would be awfully close to the Old Orchard store. I wonder if this is in preparation for closing the Old Orchard store -- rent has to be very high being sandwiched between Williams Sonoma and Nordstrom!

Concerning independents: often the problem is that they do not give Mac people are good reason to frequent them. What a good Apple indy needs is different items that are not necessarily directly related to the Mac -- audio equipment, more printers and scanners, etc. This would also bring in more PC people who would shop for these items, and, of course, play with the Macs.

[nightowl]

A loss of a business and jobs is always sad. I think that a problem for resellers is that they can't afford to have the large quantity of inventory that Apple carries. In some cases the expertise isn't as good. They also tend to not have the latest products.

Maconline in Sacramento, at least their retail outlet, wasn't that great in my opinion in the first place. I went in there before the Apple Store opened, and couldn't get any help from anyone. Their selection at the time wasn't that great, and their hours were bad (closed on Sundays, only open until 6 I believe, shorter Saturday hours).

I can't speak for them years before, but I know they've been around for quite some time. The Sacramento Apple store is in Arden Fair Mall, which is about a quarter mile from MacOnline. Sure would appear to me that they targeted one reseller directly. There are a few other malls they could have opened in which wouldn't have directly impacted smaller retailers (Roseville, Sunrise, Downtown).

[gwangung]

Something folks should take into consideration is how well computer resellers are doing in general (particularly those on the size of typical Mac resellers). If they're going out of business at a higher rate than other resellers, that's one thing; if they're going out of business at the SAME rate, that's another (and something you lament, but really can't blame Apple for...)

[iGary]

Hmmmm... the Washington, DC metro area already has stores in Tyson's Corner (the first Apple Store), Clarendon, Montgomery Mall, and Bethesda (mini store)...

Do we really need this new one in Arlington (Pentagon City)?

Don't get me wrong -- I'm all for expansion (and Tysons always has a lot of customers when I stop by), but adding a new store in a market with four already when so many places have none at all? Odd.

I know tons of Mac-interested people in the Roanoke, VA area who can't justify going all the way to DC or Richmond to experience/buy Apple products, and nobody else in the area carries them. Those are the kinds of places Apple should go now, since the major markets are largely covered.

Clarendon is technically in Arlington. I'm curious about this one.

Edit: And why they don't have on in Annapolis, MD - the state Capitol, I have no idea.

[Mr_Ed]

I hope the new store in Orlando is not a "mini" store though if it's in a mall, it probably will be :mad: The one we have in the Millenia mall is pretty small as it is. I was disappointed when I first visited it.

Sorry about the other retailers closing though. I figured the more, the merrier when it comes to selling Apple products.

[edenwaith]

How wonderful, yet another Chicagoland store. We wouldn't want to disperse the stores in a more even manner, would we? As someone mentioned on the AppleInsider board, how come there isn't one in New Mexico? Granted, putting a store in towns like Anchorage Alaska or Billings Montana might be a little far flung, considering their remoteness from cities of 1+ million people, but it would be nice to see some extra stores. How about a store in Peoria, Illinois? Maybe one in Colorado Springs? Albuquerque?

[runninmac]

I glad there opening more. I cant wait untill one opens about 10 mins away from me in a the Summer/Fall i will diffenitly be there for the opening. Does anyone know if they still do the Black/Mistery Bag thing?

[bbyrdhouse]

I am glad for the new openings, but I concur with several of the posters in this thread.
I would love to see Apple go into a city where there is little or no Apple presence rather than put 4 or 5 Apple stores within a 75 mile radius.

Currently I have to drive 4.5 hours to Houston, TX to the closest Apple store an 4.5 hours to Baton Rouge to the nearest CompUSA.

I would love to see one in Shreveport, LA
There are currently about 400,000 people in the Shreveport/Bossier Metro area plus a small Army Base and the massive Barksdale Air Force Base. (I mention this because there is a constant turnover with military families) Not to mention LSU Shreveport, Northwestern University, Monroe, and Alexandria all less than 2 hours away.

[iGary]

Actually, if they had one closer to where I lived, my credit card would catch on fire. :D

Nevermind, keep them away, away I tell you.

[maya]

Apple has been making it harder and harder for resellers to keep on Apples Standards.

If you visit an Apple Store and compare it to a reseller you will see the Apple Store looks like a GAP store, while the reseller looks like an Old Navy store. Apple cares about its image on all boards, so this doesn't surprise me at all. However I do feel that Apple should help the reseller out to a degree. Selling Products to the Apple Stores at a cheaper rater then to reseller is just unfair practice.

It is clear that since Apple opened its Retail Stores its trying to kick its reseller out slowly. Resellers carry PC products as well and Apple does not like this at all and for good reason (duh). The resellers seem to get the short end of the stick, this does not surprise me that resellers are closing shop. It also happen in the PC world, though you do not see people making a big deal out of it. :rolleyes:

Think of this, which store would do a better job promoting Apple services and products, an Apple Store or reseller. Have any reseller stores think of converting to an Apple Store, if that is indeed possible. :)

[avus]

Concerning independents: often the problem is that they do not give Mac people are good reason to frequent them. What a good Apple indy needs is different items that are not necessarily directly related to the Mac -- audio equipment, more printers and scanners, etc. This would also bring in more PC people who would shop for these items, and, of course, play with the Macs.

Or they can sell previous generation or refurbished Apple products - There is absolutely no disgrace selling them, as a matter of fact I purchased a refurbished dual-2GHz G5 from SmallDog and I have been so happy that I just extended my Apple Care. They also have a plenty of 3G iPod 40GB and ADC 20-inch Display with discounted prices and I am very tempted. I am sure that a reseller can sustain business by not trying to be like an Apple Store.

As for the case of MACadam, I have never known until reading about it from MacMinute a while back, and I couldn't stand how the owner got so melodramatic about the situation - he somehow believes that owning an independent Apple store is a mission. I have an impression that he is not a sort of person who can make a rational business decision. Of course, I am not defending Apple's business practice in general here.

[Bonte]

We had a bad ass expensive trolling mac/PC dealer in the neighborhood but luckily closed en few years back. Now we have still 1 Mac/PC dealer and i never want to enter his store, he's even worse. I don't really want to but now i buy my Apple kit online.

Belgium NEEDS an Applestore Steve, pleeeeeaaaas :eek:

[Muzukun]

hmmm... I can't help but feel sorry for the retailers in some degree, especially when they can claim something as long as 16 years of service towards the mac community and not have gone out of buisness in that time. This going against the other claims of users who have visited their stores would suggest they might have been crappy, but in those 16 years they must have been doing SOMETHING right to keep them in buisness too.

However with the introduction of the apple store apple really is putting themselves in a position where they can call the shots. The stores are as much apple as is anything else, their wonderful, they seem to symbolize apple itself, quick easy and friendly. The reseller stores that I've gone to (never been to a mac reseller honestly but I've seen more then enough regular resellers...) their mostly dark, dingy, and sell outdated crap at a high price and then there's the new things that are even worse. Yes I do find the occasional exception, that is just wonderful but still, those have been few and far between for me.

Going back to apple however I'm not suprised about their practices in any way shape or form, they make perfect sense. Maintain the apple stores first, make sure they you're doing the best, then take care of the rest. Apple only has so much to go around in their product and I'd assume the number of customers that go to an applestore greatly exceed that of any other mac reseller, so it makese sense to send the largest portion, if not all, of your goods to the place that has the higher chance of getting their goods sold. It's unfortunate that a number of mac resellers might be going out of buisness because of this, but there are still a number that remain. All of the mac resellers that just died were the first I've heard of them, but I see smalldog still running around happily.

I'll just echo what was heard overall though, if you're a good seller and can provide something better then the apple store, you'll last, plain and simple, despite the additional hardships provided. Even if you don't get the new products at the same time that doesn't mean you can still sell them once you do get them. The apple stores have definately upped the bar, yet if your store can exceed that, odds are you'll stay. If you can't, buisness will speak for itself and you go out of buisness.

[Sayhey]

One correction to the original story. The news about the opening of the five new stores was broken not by AppleInsider, but right here on MacRumors (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1269482#post1269482) post #531. AppleInsider got their info from me. Aside from the Oklahoma City store, which had previously been leaked by a tipster to infoAppleStore, this is all new information gleaned from watching Apple's own website's job listings. No major secrets; just staying on top of info Apple releases.

As to the passing of the two resellers, let me say my two cents regarding Macadam. Having lived in San Francisco since the mid-seventies, I became aware of Macadam early on and frequented this store for years. While I mourn its passing as an old haunt, I don't miss going there. It was designed to meet the needs of macheads, not encourage new customers or the causal computer buyer. If you like going to a rough neighborhood to a store that looks straight out of skid-row, Army-Navy surplus design school - then you will miss shopping there. Mr. Santos never made a serious effort at expanding the base of the store or making it more welcoming to new computer users. If he wants to blame Steve Jobs for all of his problems, that's his privilege, but all the support in the world from Apple wouldn't have transformed Macadam into the success that is shown in the two new San Francisco Apple stores. If Apple is screwing resellers in the delivery of goods, then I'm all for forcing them to stop, but resellers have their own responsibilities for selling Apple products. Sitting in a dump of a store waiting for the masses to bust down your door isn't the way to go.

[Prez1082]

Hmmmm... the Washington, DC metro area already has stores in Tyson's Corner (the first Apple Store), Clarendon, Montgomery Mall, and Bethesda (mini store)...

Do we really need this new one in Arlington (Pentagon City)?

Don't get me wrong -- I'm all for expansion (and Tysons always has a lot of customers when I stop by), but adding a new store in a market with four already when so many places have none at all? Odd.

I know tons of Mac-interested people in the Roanoke, VA area who can't justify going all the way to DC or Richmond to experience/buy Apple products, and nobody else in the area carries them. Those are the kinds of places Apple should go now, since the major markets are largely covered.

While there may be 4, the one in Pentagon City will be ideal for Metro Riders who live in DC. I used to live in DC, and would never go to Tyson's Corner, or Bethesda, but putting one in Pentagon City is genious!!

[d.perel]

Meanwhile, ThinkSecret reports (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0502resellers.html) that two independent Apple resellers are shutting down and blaming Apple for their inability to continue.

I hope this should be a wakeup call to all of those stores that sell apple products, yet are clueless about the way apple products work (for instance, a salesman saying that only an HP iPod works with windows.)People go to the apple store for competent salespeople, not the guy that just got fired from the carwash next door.

[nichos]

That's funny some major cities don't have ANY, and yet there are 2 in Orlando. They should move the one from Millenia to Florida mall, instead of opening another one. Anyway, I've since moved to Jacksonville Fl, and we're getting out OWN mac store soon! (http://www.macnn.com/articles/04/01/19/new.store.in.jacksonville/) One less reason to drive to orlando! :D

[d.perel]

I know tons of Mac-interested people in the Roanoke, VA area who can't justify going all the way to DC or Richmond to experience/buy Apple products, and nobody else in the area carries them. Those are the kinds of places Apple should go now, since the major markets are largely covered.
This is already happening to some degree. Even 2 years ago, I would not have imagined an apple store in central virginia. The catch is that Apple looks for urban-style, pedestrian-crowded shopping areas. It wasn't until Short Pump Towne Center was built that richmond got a store. Unfortunately, i guess that less urban areas would have to wait for something to happen, or drive 2 hours...But then again, what is the point of saturation for places like DC?

[Macmaniac]

As a person who works for an Apple reseller I have to say not all of us are bad! We provide sales and service for Mac's as our primary business, we are one of the few competent repair shops you can go to have your Mac repaired in a 40 mile radius.
You need to understand that resellers do get the shaft when it comes to new releases. When the iPod mini came out we ordered several for our store the day of the release and we had to wait a month before they came in. We have lost many sales because Apple can't supply its distributors, we have had to send people to Menloe Park to buy iPods since we can't get any without having to wait 1-2 weeks. Its inexcusable on Apple's part that they can't give their resellers a fair chance to have new products.

[Sayhey]

This is already happening to some degree. Even 2 years ago, I would not have imagined an apple store in central virginia. The catch is that Apple looks for urban-style, pedestrian-crowded shopping areas. It wasn't until Short Pump Towne Center was built that richmond got a store. Unfortunately, i guess that less urban areas would have to wait for something to happen, or drive 2 hours...But then again, what is the point of saturation for places like DC?

Saturation works. It creates an atmosphere about the stores. It means that if you live in the New York, San Francisco, Boston, LA, Chicago, or Washington metro area there will likely be a store within easy access to millions of people. It is also in these major urban centers where new fashion and buying trends are set - not in Roanoke. No knock on smaller cities, but it makes sense to start out concentrating your resources where the people are.

[Centris 650]

Just one in SC. That's all I'm asking. Or maybe one in Augusta GA?! What does Apple have against us?! There are 2 in NC and 2 in GA? We said we were sorry for that whole Civil War thing! C'mon man, don't hold a grudge!

[Ge4-ce]

We are a local store in Belgium. We sell photographic equipement and video at amateur and professional level.

We also sell Apple-computers. I can tell you everything about how Apple treats the smaller resellers.

1) You have to sell at least 100 Macs a year before you can buy directly from Apple. (we sell 30 a year tops)

2) Now we buy them from Techdata, a distributer of Computerequipment often at the same price Apple sells them online. So if we want to compete, we sell them with 0% profit. We're not stupid. So we add extra 5-10% profit. wich makes us more expensive than the Applestore.

3) If we would sell more than 100 Macs a year, and we would like to buy demomaterial.. we have to pay full price.. Heck, even the folders and stickers had to be paid.. (we get this for free with other vendors)

4) Recently, a couple of clients wanted the new Dual 2.5 Ghz. We sold none because we had to wait from June till December before the first ordered model would arrive. The customers cancelled their order offcourse.

5) Apple simply isn't interested in selling computers in local reseller channels. Still thanx to this,. the great public isn't familiar with Macintosh in Belgium. They still are full with things like it's too expensive,.. not compatible,... and you cannot buy it in the neighbourhood!!!!!!!

6) why do we still sell Apple? What the better alternative? WINDOWS????? HAAAAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAHAAAAHHa gimme a break (so pure idealism is the driving force, not the profit, not the good relations with Apple)

[dguisinger]

A poster above was correct, most smaller PC stores are going out of business as well. What people are missing is that as computer prices drop, its harder to make money if there are 3 layers to the process of selling it: manufacturing, distribution, and resellers. Every one is taking a smaller and smaller cut. This is the natural progression; Apple wasn't the first one to do direct sales. If everyone wants them to be more price competitive with Dell and HP and Gateway, they need to promote sellind direct, expecially to people who know what they want, by sending them to their website.

I have never seen on a normal day that Apple has given below-MSRP pricing on their products from their stores. The only time I've seen that is their special promo nights for OS releases. So if 3rd parties are concerned about Apple charging less than them on a daily basis, then maybe they should charge the MSRP rate; otherwise they are doing a disservice to Apple by making an already-premium product cost even more.

Other posters were right; no one has a god-given right to sell any particular product or to be in a particular line of business. If they can't compete the way they are, adapt. But as the computer market becomes more comoditized, we see more and more dealers, whether PC or Mac disappearing. You don't hear the PC dealers complaining of bad practices. Apple's reseller agreements aren't indefinate, they renew every year or two with new terms. If the reseller doesn't like the terms that Apple gives them, they have no right to complain. It is a privilage to a end reseller to be able to sell a product.

As far as someone mentioning MacAdams having a 3% credit card charge (or discount for cash), as someone with a merchant account, the merchant agreement refuses to let you give your customer a different price for cash. You can get the merchant in BIG trouble for this. It doesn't stop us from offering that to our customers, but if they point that out, we dont charge the extra 3% (and we only do that on volume discounts, there is no 3% on single item orders). Its a charge that of course all us stores like to add to cover the merchant fees, but its not legal and is technically dirty.

[dguisinger]

We are a local store in Belgium. We sell photographic equipement and video at amateur and professional level.

We also sell Apple-computers. I can tell you everything about how Apple treats the smaller resellers.

1) You have to sell at least 100 Macs a year before you can buy directly from Apple. (we sell 30 a year tops)

2) Now we buy them from Techdata, a distributer of Computerequipment often at the same price Apple sells them online. So if we want to compete, we sell them with 0% profit. We're not stupid. So we add extra 5-10% profit. wich makes us more expensive than the Applestore.

3) If we would sell more than 100 Macs a year, and we would like to buy demomaterial.. we have to pay full price.. Heck, even the folders and stickers had to be paid.. (we get this for free with other vendors)

4) Recently, a couple of clients wanted the new Dual 2.5 Ghz. We sold none because we had to wait from June till December before the first ordered model would arrive. The customers cancelled their order offcourse.

5) Apple simply isn't interested in selling computers in local reseller channels. Still thanx to this,. the great public isn't familiar with Macintosh in Belgium. They still are full with things like it's too expensive,.. not compatible,... and you cannot buy it in the neighbourhood!!!!!!!

6) why do we still sell Apple? What the better alternative? WINDOWS????? HAAAAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAHAAAAHHa gimme a break (so pure idealism is the driving force, not the profit, not the good relations with Apple)

Don't know about over seas, but here in the US TechData's prices on Apple products are below Apples prices. For example, Mac Mini's have a $30 margin, PowerMacs and XServes around $100 or more.

[Ge4-ce]

Don't know about over seas, but here in the US TechData's prices on Apple products are below Apples prices. For example, Mac Mini's have a $30 margin, PowerMacs and XServes around $100 or more.

Maybe if you buy big amounts of the same stuff!

And if I can count correctly.. If you get 100 bucks out of an Xserve, that's about the same 3% margin we have on Powermacs! 3%!! That's not even worth selling it! If one member of personel, orders it, unpacks the thing, check if it's complete, sell it to the customer, and give a brief explanation, you're allready loosing money that way. And then I don't mention the duds we get regulary, where you have to make 10 calls, send the computer back and forth 2 times, and when you promise to never sell a Mac again..

Problem is that people who buy an Xserve THINK you made about 600 bucks of profit out that thing. And they also ACT like you made a lot of money out of them. That's the whole problem here.

[brianmita]

I'm really surprised that they are putting an apple store in northbrook court. having worked in that mall, it's really dead. plus it's too close to old orchard. sure it may be very boutiquey, but I think they would have been much better off going out a little further out to hawthorne.

[zwida]

But then again, what is the point of saturation for places like DC?

I'd guess that Apple's analysis shows that saturation of those markets will yield greater returns. They seem pretty darned smart about evaluating markets before placing a store. If DC or NY or CA have several stores in a relatively small region, I'd bet that there making more money, getting more exposure, etc than they would opening stores in secondary or tertiary markets.

Of course, that doesn't do consumers any good in those smaller markets...

[ts1973]

We are a local store in Belgium. We sell photographic equipement and video at amateur and professional level.

We also sell Apple-computers. I can tell you everything about how Apple treats the smaller resellers.

1) You have to sell at least 100 Macs a year before you can buy directly from Apple. (we sell 30 a year tops)

2) Now we buy them from Techdata, a distributer of Computerequipment often at the same price Apple sells them online. So if we want to compete, we sell them with 0% profit. We're not stupid. So we add extra 5-10% profit. wich makes us more expensive than the Applestore.

3) If we would sell more than 100 Macs a year, and we would like to buy demomaterial.. we have to pay full price.. Heck, even the folders and stickers had to be paid.. (we get this for free with other vendors)

4) Recently, a couple of clients wanted the new Dual 2.5 Ghz. We sold none because we had to wait from June till December before the first ordered model would arrive. The customers cancelled their order offcourse.

5) Apple simply isn't interested in selling computers in local reseller channels. Still thanx to this,. the great public isn't familiar with Macintosh in Belgium. They still are full with things like it's too expensive,.. not compatible,... and you cannot buy it in the neighbourhood!!!!!!!

6) why do we still sell Apple? What the better alternative? WINDOWS????? HAAAAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAHAAAAHHa gimme a break (so pure idealism is the driving force, not the profit, not the good relations with Apple)

Aha, a fellow poster from Belgium.

As a matter of fact, I was going to write almost the same story. I recognise most of the things you write, and would like to add my own experience.

I used to work for a rather small, local Apple Centre in Belgium, between 1991 and 1997, until I started my own company. I sold the Apple gear, gave support to our customers, and went to our customer's homes and companies to install their newly bought computers and networks.
I can tell you that even back then the profit-margins were under 5%, actually bottom line no profit was made from selling computers (you couldn't even pay the staff from it). The profits came from repairs, support, periferals and software. So basically our store just sold the computers, and hoped the customers would come back for other things. In this manner the shop survived for almost 20 years (they started in the days of Apple II). Recently, when the Apple Store begun having success, they just quit. People go to the Apple store now for periferals and software, and repairs are handled directly by Apple. Having an Apple shop nowadays, is in my opinion just plain suicide.

[devman]

A poster above was correct, most smaller PC stores are going out of business as well. What people are missing is that as computer prices drop, its harder to make money if there are 3 layers to the process of selling it: manufacturing, distribution, and resellers. Every one is taking a smaller and smaller cut. This is the natural progression; Apple wasn't the first one to do direct sales. If everyone wants them to be more price competitive with Dell and HP and Gateway, they need to promote sellind direct, expecially to people who know what they want, by sending them to their website.

I have never seen on a normal day that Apple has given below-MSRP pricing on their products from their stores. The only time I've seen that is their special promo nights for OS releases. So if 3rd parties are concerned about Apple charging less than them on a daily basis, then maybe they should charge the MSRP rate; otherwise they are doing a disservice to Apple by making an already-premium product cost even more.

Other posters were right; no one has a god-given right to sell any particular product or to be in a particular line of business. If they can't compete the way they are, adapt. But as the computer market becomes more comoditized, we see more and more dealers, whether PC or Mac disappearing. You don't hear the PC dealers complaining of bad practices. Apple's reseller agreements aren't indefinate, they renew every year or two with new terms. If the reseller doesn't like the terms that Apple gives them, they have no right to complain. It is a privilage to a end reseller to be able to sell a product.

Brilliant post. The resellers expectations just don't reflect today's business realities. Things change. Things can't always be the way they were. No matter how much a reseller thinks they should be when viewed through romanticism.

[dguisinger]

Maybe if you buy big amounts of the same stuff!

And if I can count correctly.. If you get 100 bucks out of an Xserve, that's about the same 3% margin we have on Powermacs! 3%!! That's not even worth selling it! If one member of personel, orders it, unpacks the thing, check if it's complete, sell it to the customer, and give a brief explanation, you're allready loosing money that way. And then I don't mention the duds we get regulary, where you have to make 10 calls, send the computer back and forth 2 times, and when you promise to never sell a Mac again..

Problem is that people who buy an Xserve THINK you made about 600 bucks of profit out that thing. And they also ACT like you made a lot of money out of them. That's the whole problem here.

I was wrong:
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Product Note: Requires Authorization From Vendor
Check ETA $3,242.40

[narco]

Definitely is sad, whatever the truth is. I've been to a couple Apple resellers in the Hollywood area and they were both really great, friendly people. The only problem with them is that there really isn't a lot of business coming in. One store was still selling the old displays and didn't have the new ones in yet, and a lot of the stuff was marked up a tiny bit.

Personally, i do like the reseller stores because a lot of them are run by people who really know the Macintosh inside and out. A lot of the people I've seen at the Apple stores recently seem to be younger -- but still a bit knowledgeable.

Bottom line is it's always sad when stores close down and jobs are lost. I wonder if the employees will apply at the Apple store?

Fishes,
narco.

[sockeatingdryer]

Alright, now let's get one in Georgia south of Macon & east of Valdosta!

PLEASE!

[jeffgarden]

florida is gonna have as many stores as california soon. there's already 3 within 2 hours from me [in miami]. the falls in miami, the aventura one, and the boca raton one.

[Stephen Hinton]

The former Apple sellers people mentioned not being able to sell 100 Macs a year, and couldn't get discounts because of this: excuse me, but what business could survive that doesn't sell 100 of something all year long? This sounds like a hobby club instead of a business.

Like others have noted, a good and well run store would thrive. I live in New York City and we have a huge, popular and super busy Apple store. Yet the local Apple specialist Tekserve (tekserve.com) is doing just fine. Blaming Apple for the demise of two California stores is just passing the buck.

I bought a new Mac Mini there and iWork two days after they were released and the store was packed with stock. They even had a Mini Party to launch the new computer.

Tekserve provides excellent service, hires knowledgeable sales and service staff, and has plenty of stock. I always prefer taking my business to them because the store is locally owned and very much a part of the social community of the city.

For example I need two more copies of iWork (I love Pages and am moving my document workflow from Word to Pages). I'll stop by the store on the way to work on Monday and pick up two copies. Even if they didn't have it in stock, Tekserve would take by order and get it to me when they received it. (But I know they will have it in stock.)

There are some other Apple stores in New York that have not done so well lately, but they were not well run in the first place.

[nichos]

Alright, now let's get one in Georgia south of Macon & east of Valdosta!

PLEASE!
I don't know where you are, but as I said in my previous post, they're opening one in Jacksonville in the next few months. If you're in GA it wouldn't be worth the drive just to look, but maybe to purchase

[robbents99]

Granted I don't mind going to the NH Apple Store (no sales tax, woot!), but Providence, RI is in serious need of an Apple Store...

[dguisinger]

Granted I don't mind going to the NH Apple Store (no sales tax, woot!), but Providence, RI is in serious need of an Apple Store...

We really could use one up here in Maple Grove, MN (nw minneapolis metro). Its the type of location that you'd expect an Apple store, its very similar in growth & wealth to the bloomington area in the sothern half of the metro where Apple has two stores (one in Mall of America, and one in the neighboring city). 2 years ago a contact at our newest shopping center said they were in discussions with Apple, but they've never come in. :( I'm still waiting. I don't get why they put one within a 3 minute drive from their mall of america store. I guess I would never buy a computer in Mall of America, maybe thats why they put one near by. But I still think they should focus on filling the gaps in their coverage before doubling or trippling up.

[rdowns]

florida is gonna have as many stores as california soon. there's already 3 within 2 hours from me [in miami]. the falls in miami, the aventura one, and the boca raton one.

The old 80/20 rule. I head up sales for a national company and 80% of our business come from 20% of the states. NY, FL, CA, TX and IL are where most of the money is. Sorry if people don't want to hear that but that's where a national seller is going to focus.

[nydoofus]

Another cheer for TekServe. Great service, great people, 10 cent Cokes :). The funny thing is, I've often heard Apple Store employees refer customers to TekServe for accessories and for certain repair jobs. TekServe thrives by doing some things better than the Apple Store. Its easier to speak to a tech and they have many, many more accessories (a dozen or so keyboards for example, whereas the Apple Store only sells Apple's).

The former Apple sellers people mentioned not being able to sell 100 Macs a year, and couldn't get discounts because of this: excuse me, but what business could survive that doesn't sell 100 of something all year long? This sounds like a hobby club instead of a business.

Like others have noted, a good and well run store would thrive. I live in New York City and we have a huge, popular and super busy Apple store. Yet the local Apple specialist Tekserve (tekserve.com) is doing just fine. Blaming Apple for the demise of two California stores is just passing the buck.

I bought a new Mac Mini there and iWork two days after they were released and the store was packed with stock. They even had a Mini Party to launch the new computer.

Tekserve provides excellent service, hires knowledgeable sales and service staff, and has plenty of stock. I always prefer taking my business to them because the store is locally owned and very much a part of the social community of the city.

For example I need two more copies of iWork (I love Pages and am moving my document workflow from Word to Pages). I'll stop by the store on the way to work on Monday and pick up two copies. Even if they didn't have it in stock, Tekserve would take by order and get it to me when they received it. (But I know they will have it in stock.)

There are some other Apple stores in New York that have not done so well lately, but they were not well run in the first place.

[man2525]

I know I'm lazy, but couldn't they have put the new Orlando store about 15 miles further east...

Those two locations, the Florida Mall and the Millenia Mall, are fine for tourists, but they are near each other. I guess it's for product placement. Maybe they're looking to attract the attention of rich stock investors on vacation at WDW Resorts. I know that there are stores in the Millenia Mall that are basically showcases for expensive brands, like Tiffany & Co.

The shopping area that attracts the majority of tourists, especially ones who own euros :( (poor $), is the Belz Factory Outlet Mall. I recommend going if you visit here. Lots of good deals on clothing.

For now, the Computer Store at the University of Central Florida will serve my needs.

[crazedbytheheat]

I hope the new store in Orlando is not a "mini" store though if it's in a mall, it probably will be :mad: The one we have in the Millenia mall is pretty small as it is. I was disappointed when I first visited it.


I'm kind of curious about what you expected. :confused: As far as I can tell the Millenia store carries everything and the staff seems friendly and knowledgeable. I'm be totally happy to have even a mini store over here in Oviedo. Not complaining, though; still only about 30-45 min. drive to all that Apple goodness. For those who care, this will mean that the only two Apple stores in all of Orlando are approx. 10 minutes apart. On the plus side, maybe this will mean the store isn't always packed.
:p

[crazedbytheheat]

For now, the Computer Store at the University of Central Florida will serve my needs.

Can anyone use the UCF store or do you have to be a student. I work just across the road from UCF, but didn't know they sold Apple stuff. Do they have a good selection? I have seen quite a few students with iBooks in Starbucks, but figured they bought them at Millenia or online.

[AliensAreFuzzy]

Come on. Appleton store soon...

[QCassidy352]

Well, you do have one option and that is you have to go to the Apple store. I've shopped at both independent resellers and at the Apple store and i find they are equal in their snootiness. But yeah, the indies never have a good supply of the newest gear. I'm sure many people have gone to their local reseller, been told that there is a wait list for an item, then go to their local Apple store and find the exact same item.

A single option without others is, by definition, not an option.

As for Apple stores having the items whereas independents do not, that's exactly the point. It doesn't happen because the resellers are incompetent; it happens because Apple withholds supply.

I never went to either of these particular stores, so I can't speak to them. But the store near my college that closed had current inventory, nice displays, and helpful salespeople. I'm not saying it was necessarily better than an apple store, but it was just as good.

Lets apply some common sense here. Does it make sense that every little retailer is as poorly managed as some have suggested that these stores were? Or does it make more sense that in the face of a wave of closings, there may be a more a systemic cause?

[Italiano]

I'm in Jacksonville - are they really opening up here? We were going to drive to Orlando next weekend just so I could visit an Apple store - do you know that for sure?

[maclamb]

Ths is not about product, it's about delivering on the promise.
What is the proimise the retailers make? It's about the experience - not the commodity. If it was just commodity, it would always be based on price - but the majority of these posts seem to indicate the experience of the indies was poor - they were not delivering on the promise. I have been in MacAdam and was not pleased. I have been in CompuWare and was please d- even paid more for my machine because of the experience.
I have worked in computer store as a salesperson - hardware margins are so small we had to excel on knowledge and service.
And please, it's not like the stores didn't see the writing on the wall - They have to ask themselves why are they in business - what is their promise to their customers.
Perhaps they were getting lazy and complacent and customers started to pick up on this...

[hcuar]

Boo freakin hoo. I'm sorry, but I don't feel bad that Apple has decided to further their buisness by playing the resellers sandbox. I say, bravo!!! I only wish I didn't have to drive 2 hours to get to the Apple store in Des Moines.

I don't know of any stores that sell Macs in my neck of the woods. So... I say, where's my store? :D

[vga4life]

Another cheer for TekServe. Great service, great people, 10 cent Cokes :). The funny thing is, I've often heard Apple Store employees refer customers to TekServe for accessories and for certain repair jobs. TekServe thrives by doing some things better than the Apple Store. Its easier to speak to a tech and they have many, many more accessories (a dozen or so keyboards for example, whereas the Apple Store only sells Apple's).

I'm not a member of the TekServe fanclub. To me, TekServe is just like the other bad apple resellers that the Apple Stores were designed to eliminate.

Apple SoHo is a terrible place by my standards - inadequate staffing for the business they do and lines out the wazoo as a result - but at least the answers they give to straightforward inquiries are honest. I can't count the number of times I've called TekServe in advance asking about availability of specific items, being told "yeah, we've got it, come on down," wasting half an hour getting there and another hour standing in line only to be told that said item was out of stock or what have you, then wasting another half hour getting back to work, or home, etc.

When I call the Apple store asking about a specific item, I get a straightforward yes or no about availability, and when I get a yes, I go to the store an get the item (Mac, accessory, whatever) without any problems, and certainly without waiting in line for an hour to be told it's out of stock (or was never in stock because they didn't sell it in the first place).

Same deal with support. The Genius Bar in SoHo certainly sucks - if I need support, I log onto http://www.apple.com/retail/soho at exactly 10:01 am to schedule an appointment and usually end up with one in the afternoon - but it beats waiting in line for hours at TekServe only to be treated with rudeness bordering on contempt. It may take a long time to be seen by a "genius" but at least they're unfailingly helpful and polite. They certainly don't look for technicalities to avoid providing warranty service like the TekServe staff I've had the misfortune of encountering.

If I was still using my SE/30, yeah, I'd go to TekServe for any repair I couldn't do myself, but those days are long, long gone.

-vga4life

[jywv8]

too bad for the resellers, but who knows....

im a little surprised about the Northbrook, IL one though, that makes what four in the chicagoland area? Michigan Ave, Woodfield, Old Orchard...& now Northbrook, i might be missing one as well.....well the more the merrier i say for Apple Stores, i love going to them

Having grown up in the NW suburbs...it is much easier and faster to get to Northbrook than any of those other locations. That's probably why they wanted to get one up there.

[swissmann]

Do Apple stores offer better prices, quicker supply of new products, and the like or do they just offer a nicer interface with more and more helpful employees and stock on hand, etc? If it is the latter set they are a better store if it is the first than it is unfair business. I'd like an Apple store in my area.

[joeboy_45101]

I WISH APPLE WOULD QUIT TAKING THEIR TIME ON A DAYTON AREA STORE. There are two possibilities, Dayton Mall and FairField Commons. Dayton Mall should not be called that since it is out of the way for most people in the Dayton area. I think FairField Commons would be a better location, it's right across from Wright State Univ., which has a significantly good number of Mac people. Plus, I need a job, a good job. I can't stand working for Wally World anymore.

Does anybody have any good advice for how I can make the transformation from that damn blue vest to the wonderful white apple?

[cmvsm]

I've got 5 Apple stores in a 60 mile radius, with the closest being about 5 mins from me which is great! Why is it that most every Apple store in a two story mall is on the second floor? I thought I was going to die lugging my G5 to the Genius Bar the other day.

In terms of the independents...its a definate...Waaahh!! I do feel for those entreprenuers that are going down, but at the same time, it is what you make of it. I'd be surprised if most of those failed independents admitted that they didn't do "everything" they possibly could do to drive their business.

Maybe living off the rep of the Apple logo too long have we??? Instead of building rapport with the community, holding training workshops, creating incentive programs, sales calls, and/or duplicating the tidy white environment for uniformity...blah blah blah. Probably not...so down in the pit you go!

[Kinsella217]

Wow, an Apple store in Paramus NJ. That will make 4 stores within a 45 mile radius! Also there is a Compusa store in Paramus with a Kick-@ss Apple section and staffed with a really great Apple Rep ( Peter). Good News for us!

Pete Trauber? That guy is great! I worked with him in Pittsburgh... really, really good guy!

Dan

[Gelfin]

You know, I reflexively felt bad about macadam's closure, but then I remembered the few times I'd been there. It was a "for-geeks, by-geeks" establishment, with all the good and bad that came with that.

In the "good" column, macadam was the only place in town that sold niche items like after-market carrying handles for TiBooks. In fact, that's the only thing I can actually remember buying there. Of course the advent of online shopping has softened the blow of not having a store for things like that.

In the "bad" column are a few problems:

1. Location: theirs was terrible. It was in a mildly sketchy part of SOMA. I can't think of any other shopping in that general area unless you're looking to buy some leather undies. The store was inconvenient to get to either with or without a car.

2. Geek elitism: you can't afford it if you're trying to run a business. Their regular customers were their friends, but anyone else should be able to walk into the store and receive courteous, professional attention without knowing the secret handshake, and sadly that wasn't the case.

3. Inventory management: give it a try sometime. Walking into the store was a little like walking into somebody's garage. It was dark, disorganized, and stuffed to the gills with ancient gear still being sold at the original MSRP. The store couldn't comfortably accomodate more than a handful of shoppers at a time, and while there was some useful stuff there, you had to wade through a lot of junk to find it.

Ultimately Macadam wasn't really doing the Apple community any favors. Bottom line, if all I had to choose from was "Mom & Pop" shops and I had to choose being a Mac user and shopping at Macadam versus being a PC user and shopping at Central Computer, I'd be a PC user all the way.

It's a shame they couldn't make it work, and even with the store's shortcomings I'd be angry to learn if Apple was abusing their position as manufacturer to drive competing retailers out of business (which is illegal), but I'd also be surprised. If the store was moving enough merchandise to make it worth the effort, Apple would have made them a priority. This is true even within a chain. I've occasionally heard an Apple rep at one CompUSA talking about how another CompUSA gets supplied better.

For that matter, if Apple was specifically looking to drive competing retailers out of business, at least in SF they'd do a lot better to start with the CompUSA a block away from the Apple Store, but they still seem pretty well stocked.

[GodBless]

Usually businesses fail because of poor business practices. I'd bet that the better stores that are quality like the Apple Store are still open. I have yet to hear of a quality store that only does Apple shutting down. I've just heard of stores shutting down that have poor employees and unreasonably high prices shutting down.

If you stand back and look you should be happy those kinds of stores are gone because that means there is finally room for better stores in the communities that have shutdown stores in them.

If the Apple Stores shutdown high quality stores that only do Apple, not only would I be surprised that such a thing would happen, I would be ready for a monopoly type lawsuit.

I'd bet that the Apple stores have made more mac users which means that stores that do Apple repairs and sell only Apple things would be more busy than ever. These stores would pretty much provide people with an alternative to the Apple store.

[man2525]

Can anyone use the UCF store or do you have to be a student. I work just across the road from UCF, but didn't know they sold Apple stuff. Do they have a good selection? I have seen quite a few students with iBooks in Starbucks, but figured they bought them at Millenia or online.

The selection is good, but...

Elgibility to Purchase

The UCF Computer Store caters specifically to current students, staff and faculty of UCF and surrounding Community Colleges.

Sorry. It helps when you work there, I guess.

[200paul]

MacAdam - Good Riddance!!!!!

Piece of crap store. I love how this guy has been poo pooing apple for supply chain issues etc. I guarantee that he was like 90 days out on his AP with Apple all the time and they probably stopped putting him on the quick ship list. I shopped with them once - they lied to me to get me to come in and then didn't have what they said they had in stock so they never got my money... ever. I can't believe they lasted this long.

Apple, call me in to court with you. I'll testify that they were never really a viable operation to begin with that an Apple user would have actually spent money at - then we can sue them under California's frivilous law suits law.

[DakotaGuy]

I guess it depends on the area where you live. Apple does not want any part of rural areas like South Dakota. We have 2 Apple Specialists in the state. One in Sioux Falls and one in Rapid City. I have had great experiences with both. When I was home on leave my HD was going bad on my Powerbook so I took it into Computer Village in Rapid City and in a couple of days they called me and said it was ready to go and moved all my data from the old HD to the new one for free. Mac Pros in Sioux Falls gave me a free $20 case when I bought my iPod from them, because they were just happy I came to them and did not go to Best Buy. When I decided I wanted a new iMac as a welcome home gift to myself from being in Iraq for a year all I had to do is email Rose at Computer Village and tell her what I wanted and she took the time to get it done for me and contacted my parents to pick it up for me. I just think it is nice to deal with small local businesses sometimes and I prefer this way of buying a computer and getting service on it. There will always be successful Apple Resellers, because there are many market areas in the United States and other places in the world that Apple Corporate won't touch. I don't know about these Resellers, but I have seen some good ones. Computer Village is about as nice of store as you will find. Not exactly like an Apple Store, but it is very attractive.

[maxp1]

Ultimately Macadam wasn't really doing the Apple community any favors. Bottom line, if all I had to choose from was "Mom & Pop" shops and I had to choose being a Mac user and shopping at Macadam versus being a PC user and shopping at Central Computer, I'd be a PC user all the way.


Ditto to that. Central Computer is great for PeeCee stuff. If MACadam had been even half a Central Computer, they probably would have survived.

I wouldn't be surprised if Apple did intentionally cause supply problems for MACadam. The place was an embassasment on Apple's home turf. As detail oriented as Steve is, I bet it was a thorn in his side. Although it's slightly monopolistic, if that's what happened, then I applaud his business accumen. It might cost a few million in lawsuits, but writing off a reseller that was damaging the brand makes good sense in the long run.

I've been trying to steer my Mac business to the Rosai Group, the Apple store has enough business. They're down on Bryant & 17th. Little store, but the people know their stuff and are friendly. That's the kind of reseller that should survive. (no, I'm not one of their employees.)

[Noelly]

I bought my iBook about a month ago from the Apple Store in London, and decided to go for an extra 256MB ram. I was shocked when they quoted £100 for this, (£70 if I bought it from the online Apple Store). Crucial sell the same memory for about £30, but that would mean I have to get out of bed early when the postman arrives. I went to a nearby Apple reseller, and picked up the memory for £45. So as long as Apple charge such a high price for memory (and other items), resellers will always have their place in the market.

I do love the Regent Street store, I've spent hours in there playing with everything, something you can't really do in many resellers.

[reyesmac]

You'd think they would want as many people as possible to sell their product. I think a huge part of why the PC industry is so huge is because almost anyone can make money from it. Or at least they can try to make money off of it without being forced to close by the maker of the product they are trying to sell. I am sure if there was an Applestore that was not making the numbers it requires its resellers to make that they would not threaten to revoke that stores reseller status.
They should be happy anyone wants to take the risk of selling their goods to 2% of the community. Starting up a business like that is not very easy and Apple should do all it can to have as many places that sell Mac compatible products as it possibly can. It's not just about getting merchandise, its also about not having to drive hours to get something repaired. Apple is a great company but until the Applestore is in every other city in the US, it can do better when it comes to its support for resellers.

[Nawlins]

Having grown up in the NW suburbs...it is much easier and faster to get to Northbrook than any of those other locations. That's probably why they wanted to get one up there.

As a resident of Northbrook, hearing this news makes me pretty happy. When I got my Powerbook about a year and a half ago, I had to go to the Apple Store in Woodfield Mall (Schaumburg) because at the time it was the only Apple Store close to my house - I think the only other one around Chicago then was Oak Park. Then a year or so ago the Old Orchard Store opened, reducing my commute to an Apple Store from 40 mins to 25. Now that's there an Apple Store opening in Northbrook Court, which as a mall is still home to many big name retailers and gets lots of business, my commute is down to 15 mins.

In addition to serving the obvious market of Northbrook, the Apple Store in Northbrook Court will attract business from suburbs north of Northbrook such as Highland Park and Lake Forest. I hope it's a full store and not one of the Minis...

Thanks Apple!

Regarding people questioning particular store locations, remember that Apple researches the locations of all their new stores extensively before clinching a spot - location is a huge, huge factor in retail. And when the Apple stores are in the right place, they sell well. Overall, the stores have been selling great last year or so.

[theanalogkid7]

When I first read that there's finally going to be a store here in Oklahoma City, I was so excited! But then the prospect of a possible job with them made me go crazy... on the inside of course. I get online and see that there are some job openings. Unfortunantly, they want some kind of retail experince. You see, I'm 19 and have never had a retail-type job. I've done tons of work with web design (getting paid, of course), as well as other design-type jobs here on my campus. There's nothing more I'd rather do right now than work at an Apple store... So do you guys think my lack of retail experience would hinder my chances of getting even a part time mac sales associate job?

Thanks!
--
theanalogkid7

[Sayhey]

I'm in Jacksonville - are they really opening up here? We were going to drive to Orlando next weekend just so I could visit an Apple store - do you know that for sure?

Apple is opening a Jacksonville store in St. John's Town Center on March 15th at last report.

I WISH APPLE WOULD QUIT TAKING THEIR TIME ON A DAYTON AREA STORE. There are two possibilities, Dayton Mall and FairField Commons. Dayton Mall should not be called that since it is out of the way for most people in the Dayton area. I think FairField Commons would be a better location, it's right across from Wright State Univ., which has a significantly good number of Mac people. Plus, I need a job, a good job. I can't stand working for Wally World anymore.

Does anybody have any good advice for how I can make the transformation from that damn blue vest to the wonderful white apple?

ifoAppleStore (http://www.ifoapplestore.com/stores/chronology.html) has Apple opening a new store in the Dayton Mall when the expansion work is complete. I'd sure start by frequenting Apple's local job listings (https://jobs.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Employment.woa/wa/retail) and look for any Dayton jobs listings that may come up soon. Perhaps you can also get some advice from folks who have gone through the interview process - I believe we have a few members who have done so.

Dayton Mall - (Dayton, Ohio) - Outdoor mall with 145 shops and restaurants along I-75. The mall experienced a revival during the past year, and is now undergoing an expansion that will include an Apple store.

Gelfin, I agree with everything you wrote. Apple is no angel in its relationship with resellers, but if one believes everything Tom Santos says in his closing letter - then I have a beautiful bridge across the Golden Gate I'd like to sell you.

[virus1]

sorry, retailers. 1 thing to say: welcome to the world. We know you were spoiled before, with barely any competition, as apple was so small, but apple is growing, and they will always win in court, and they will give themselves the advantage, so you better learn to goddam live with it!

:rolleyes: what can i say?

[virus1]

You'd think they would want as many people as possible to sell their product. I think a huge part of why the PC industry is so huge is because almost anyone can make money from it. Or at least they can try to make money off of it without being forced to close by the maker of the product they are trying to sell. I am sure if there was an Applestore that was not making the numbers it requires its resellers to make that they would not threaten to revoke that stores reseller status.
They should be happy anyone wants to take the risk of selling their goods to 2% of the community. Starting up a business like that is not very easy and Apple should do all it can to have as many places that sell Mac compatible products as it possibly can. It's not just about getting merchandise, its also about not having to drive hours to get something repaired. Apple is a great company but until the Applestore is in every other city in the US, it can do better when it comes to its support for resellers.

the point of it is, is that other resellers without apple stores in thier city will always be ok with it, because they don't have any competition in thier area. On the other hand, when an apple store come to town, they start complaining. as long as an apple store is not near, they have no reason to be mad at apple. so as apple moves into each city, they push all the other resellers out, but they don't loose any others, or customers.

when i say "city", i mean area. sry if this doesn't make any sense, its 11:20 here, and ive been up since 5 :eek:

[Village]

That's what I've been screaming forever! Nashville! Come back Apple!

Hey guys, word is an Apple store is coming to the Green Hills Mall soon! Apple has posted several positions for a retail location there. Why they decided to open one in Memphis first, I don't know - Nashville has a bigger creative market.

[arkmannj]

How about a store in the good old Salt Lake City (Utah,USA) Area !!!
C'mon, Las Vegas is the closest one to us I think...
(about 6 - 8 hours depending on driving conditions etc...)

I know I'm just dreaming. . . but it would be nice.

[Sayhey]

How about a store in the good old Salt Lake City (Utah,USA) Area !!!
C'mon, Las Vegas is the closest one to us I think...
(about 6 - 8 hours depending on driving conditions etc...)

I know I'm just dreaming. . . but it would be nice.

Apple is opening a store in The Gateway mall. If it takes the usual time from job listings to opening it should be from 3 to 6 months. Because there seems to be an awful lot of questions about where Apple is planning to open new stores, here is a list of sites that are confirmed by job listings.


South Shore Plaza - Braintree, Massachusetts
Century City - Los Angeles, California
Lincoln Road - Miami Beach, Florida
St. John's Town Center - Jacksonville, Florida
Pioneer Place - Portland, Oregon
The Gardens at Palm Beach - Palm Beach Gardens, Florida
La Cantera - San Antonio, Texas
Green Hills - Nashville, Tennessee
Woodland - Grand Rapids, Michigan
The Woodlands - Houston, Texas
Gateway Mall - Salt Lake City, Utah
Yorkdale - Toronto, Canada
Bluewater - Kent, England
Bullring - Birmingham, England
Crabtree Valley - Raleigh, North Carolina
Bridgeport Village - Tualatin, Oregon
Manhattan Village - Manhattan Beach, California
Penn Square - Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Pentagon City - Arlington, Virginia
Garden State Plaza - Paramus, New Jersey
Northbrook Court - Northbrook, Illinois
Florida Mall - Orlando, Florida

[Chip NoVaMac]

Many of you will never understand until your in someone like Tom's shoes or something like that. Now I can understand your complaint, a terrible store in London that sells old stuff and outrageous prices, that is bad. But for a credible store like Tom ran, many of you will never understand although his complaints and letters has everything making sense. I am a personal friend of Tom and I feel for him and his family and I wish him well. I know people will flame me during this whole thread but I could honestly care less cause no one knows the situation better than someone like Tom or in some cases myself.

jon

Right you are! Most that have not had to deal with Apple and their rules for resellers that their own stores do not have to deal with. The only way for resellers to compete now is to offer services that can be bundled in with product purchases. But IMO that market is more limited for the Mac than it is for a Win box.

My how times have changed. So many years ago Kodak operated their own stores, they were forced to close them because of the unfair business advantage they had with their parent company. Now we have Apple with their own stores, and resellers having a hard time with the low margins for hard good sales. Coupled with return/restock policies that make it impossible to compete.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Another store in Arlington? Seems kinda odd, though I'm not complaining.

I was thinking the same thing. Just 5 stops away on the rail line. Though it does make sense for the crowd from Springfield and Southern Maryland that find Pentagon City a destination shopping experience.

[Spidermanjohn]

The Sacramento store sucks. Bunch of liberals running the place with very little stock. Tried to get an antenna for my airport; they told me to try the web. Getting any attention from the staff is like watching molasses run from a tree and then you wait in line for the WONDERFUL cashier. The Apple store model is pathetic. You all bitch about Best Buy, well I am here to tell you the Apple store in the Arden Mall is a worse experience than any Best Buy.

[jaromski]

The old 80/20 rule. I head up sales for a national company and 80% of our business come from 20% of the states. NY, FL, CA, TX and IL are where most of the money is. Sorry if people don't want to hear that but that's where a national seller is going to focus.

Except in this case your 20% is really 10% as 5/50 states = 1/10 = 10%.

-jaromski

[jaromski]

How about a store in the good old Salt Lake City (Utah,USA) Area !!!
C'mon, Las Vegas is the closest one to us I think...
(about 6 - 8 hours depending on driving conditions etc...)

I know I'm just dreaming. . . but it would be nice.

There is that MacDocs store in SLC around 13th & State Street. They aren't too bad....for resellers. Muahahahaha.

On a separate note, if any of you read Cringely he had an interesting insight into this issue in May/04. Here is the link:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20040520.html

Lately he has been on a kick about the Mac Mini, some of his stuff is kinda wacky but other stuff is pretty dead-on. Apple is just adopting to the marketplace, the internet changed the distribution model. The reality is that apple doesn't need resellers anymore. The only way resellers can differentiate their offerings from apple is through value-added services and products. Otherwise they will die.

They are just following the direct-to-consumer model that DELL perfected. The independent channel is a relic of the past that won't be around for too much longer. There will be a few odd indi stores but for the most part they will wither on the vine.

Cringely foretold it, so it must be true!

-jaromski

[Chip NoVaMac]

This is already happening to some degree. Even 2 years ago, I would not have imagined an apple store in central virginia. The catch is that Apple looks for urban-style, pedestrian-crowded shopping areas. It wasn't until Short Pump Towne Center was built that richmond got a store. Unfortunately, i guess that less urban areas would have to wait for something to happen, or drive 2 hours...But then again, what is the point of saturation for places like DC?

A lot of it is also based on the "driving" habits in the urban areas. Claredon is a "city" location that is better suited to the rail than driving. Many from Springfield will not drive to Tysons because of the traffic, like I won't do Rockville Pike unless I really have too.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Really? It's well-known, is it? And where do we get that information? From unbiased sources or from resellers themselves? Hmmm...

Apple isn't in the business of giving resellers price breaks or making life easy for them. Anyone going into that line of work with that belief is in for a big surprise. Resellers must make their business worthwhile to customers by offering excellent service and a shopping experience that makes people ignore any supposed disadvantages. Services ranks very high on the list of customer expectations. What has driven me away from most Apple resellers is not prices or inventory shortcomings, but inattentive service and a sense that the people at a given business just don't give a rip about what I'm there for.

Yes, there are exceptions, but a majority of what I've dealt with tells me that this is typical amongst Apple resellers. If Apple can do a better job and they are putting resellers out of business because of it, then I have no sympathy. If the need wasn't there, Apple wouldn't be rushing in to fill it.

Some of us do have experience as Apple resellers (and in retail in general). Like it or not.

And yes, Apple is not there to give breaks to resellers, but there are legal and ethical considerations that make some of Apple's actions questionable. We are not talking about a manufacturer that offers special terms to a big box store due to their volume. Even that does not mean success, look at Best Buy. It wasn't just sales that dropped the Mac program, it was everything else.

And then there is the consumers demands. "You" as a consumer want service. But the consumer is unwilling to pay for that service in general. Just look at threads here about cheating the state on taxes, or trying to get EDU pricing when they don't qualify. So your comment in this thread about people willing to pay more is less than accurate, at least in from what I see in a major urban area like DC.

In the end the service that one gets from a mall Apple store is no better or worse IMO than what the worst resellers are providing.

I will say that some of my views are also based on selling in the photographic arena. In the end though retail is retail. The number of customers IMO that are willing to pay the price for service is shrinking. And resellers are responding by cutting the services provided.

Oh, well. That's the way it goes in business. No one has a "right" to a certain business. They want to make money selling Apple products, that's great, but circumstances are making that a diffecult business decision. These guys are all bent out of shape and blaming Apple, but it really isn't Apple's fault. The reason they can't get product is because there isn't ANY!!!!!! Apple can't make their products fast enough. They are literally exploding on the scene and market demand is extremely high. Of course Apple is going to favor their stores, they must, it is only good business sense. They are trying to expose the general public to their products in a very hands on way and these Apple Stores are crucial to their continued success. But how many Apple stores are out of product? And then people leave mad and upset, but it's just plain old supply and demand; huge demand low supply. Apple resellers are victims of Apple's success; they want a piece of the pie but there is only so much pie to go around. I am sure if Apple had the products they would love to get them out to resellers, but they don't. They need to stock their ever increasing store presence first because this is more important for Apple's continued growth and exposure. If selling Apple hardware is your only business, well, right now that's not really a good business to be in. The small guys will die off and the larger resellers will pick up the slack; that's the way it works in the real world.

You have some good points. Yet you have not seen the contracts that I have over the years that Apple had their resellers sign. Back in the original iMac days, a reseller could only return/stock balance/price protect one percent of their total purchases of that unit. How is a reseller supposed to keep an in stock inventory and compete with changing technology at the same time?

The big question is what the long-term effect will be as Apple stores displace independent retailers, or as independent retailers adapt to compete with Apple Stores in their neighborhoods. Each type of store has something to offer, similarly to the tradeoff between big chain bookstores and independent bookstores, each with their advantages and disadvantages. But independent stores can't always afford to compete, not having the deep pockets that a big company has to weather a lull in business or a particular store earning less than others. I'm sorry to hear accusations that Apple is being unfair to their other resellers, and I hope they resolve issues like this.

Apple stores offer some third-party products, but independent retailers often have the opportunity to adapt more quickly to local demand, offer more products that might compete with Apple's, and to provide personalized service.

What you see is the "malling/big boxing" of the retail sector. Resellers are not looking for handouts. They are looking for a more level playing field. Equal access to product. Equal price protection/product return policies.

You are right on meeting local demands. But those days may be limited. For a local reseller may offer the ABC Mac mini TV/DVR box, and can only offer it at "retail". They get shopped for their knowledge and for the customer to touch it. In the end they lose out to the internet shops that "save" on taxes and operate on thin margins. All the while we hear complaints that the staff at the stores are weak. Weak staff IMO, based on experience, is due to low wages. Low wages are due to profit motives, but more due to people with knowledge not wanting to work for those wages.

Not wanting to take this to a Political Forum level, but look at the Guest Worker Program that is being proposed. They want to allow immigrants to be able to take jobs that Americans will not take. Why will not Americans take those jobs? Could it be the low wages and poor working conditions? In the end you get what you pay for.

Independent retailers can compete just fine with Apple Stores if they are good enough. In NYC, many people who live downtown will bypass Apple's SoHo store (which is fantastic in its own right) to go up to Tekserve in Chelsea. Tekserve can repair anything, offers prices fully competitive to the Apple Store, and offers bundles that Apple doesn't. They also offer professional bundles (especially for audio and video applications) that are beyond the realm of what Apple touches. And the place is big, beautiful, and fun to visit.

Apple simply raised the expectations to the point that stores that some stores can't compete. It has nothing to do with pricing. (It may have something to do with delivery, but only because stores that don't sell much would be prioritized behind stores that do.) I would suggest that everyone choose the *best* store in their area, and let the economy take care of itself.

elo

This goes to my argument of resellers needing to move towards services, and bundling. Not all are able to afford to do that, or have the demand for that type of service or product.

This discussion also has to do with the protection of living wages. Resellers by far offer better wages than the mall Apple stores. And outside of some of the examples given, they provide more service.

What we have is the willingness of the public to allow their shopping experience to become nothing more than what they expect from buying a Double Cheese Burger from McDonalds.

[rdowns]

Except in this case your 20% is really 10% as 5/50 states = 1/10 = 10%.

-jaromski

No, I named the 5 biggest states but 82% of our sales come from 11 states. The other 6 are PA, OH, MI, GA, NJ and NC.

The 80/20 rule is quite common in business and seems to hold true most of the time. That's why you see companies locate stores in clusters and people outside these areas bitching about where their stores are.

Retailers look at a lot of metrics in opening a store (population, income, mall traffic, mall sales per square foot etc.) in deciding on a location. I'm sure Apple also looks at the numbers of their authorized dealers in the area.

[tom.96]

I went to the Regent st. Apple store in London yesterday and thought it was amazing. It was so well designed, even to the squishy ball seats by the emacs which I was really taken with (anyone know where can I buy these?) The genius bar was cool and the cinema was decent.

My normal Mac reseller in Southampton still has my business though - free delivery from them and a 2 year warranty as standard is a really good bonus.

I reckon resellers can do well, but they have to make a big big effort to compete. I will be visting Regent st. again though as it is soo good and I do find it very tempting to just buy a new Mac there and then.

[Chip NoVaMac]

No, I named the 5 biggest states but 82% of our sales come from 11 states. The other 6 are PA, OH, MI, GA, NJ and NC.

The 80/20 rule is quite common in business and seems to hold true most of the time. That's why you see companies locate stores in clusters and people outside these areas bitching about where their stores are.

Retailers look at a lot of metrics in opening a store (population, income, mall traffic, mall sales per square foot etc.) in deciding on a location. I'm sure Apple also looks at the numbers of their authorized dealers in the area.

The 80/20 rule can be applied in different ways though; though it is a concept that many fail to grasp.

Despite my ramblings, Apple may see that their current business model (forsaking the the independent reseller) as fitting that model. Meaning that they are happy with the mall stores and the big box stores (Micro Center and the such) in providing 80% of the revenue. The other 20% will have to be fought for by the toughest independents.

The only problem is that the consumer may loose in the end.

[Chip NoVaMac]

I reckon resellers can do well, but they have to make a big big effort to compete. I will be visting Regent st. again though as it is soo good and I do find it very tempting to just buy a new Mac there and then.

The question is how long can they hold on? And are you willing to pay more for the better experience?

For are we going to start to see more a "fee for service" type of environment? Already in the US we are paying to visit the National Parks. So it it far fetched that that those that want "better" service to pay a "consultation" fee to to a reseller to get "qualified" for their purchase?

[ElusiveMind]

Apple, we need a Nashville store come on!

We have an apple store inside CompUSA and MacAuthority here in Nashville .... but it's LONG BEEN KNOWN that MacAuthority is a complete rip off, they won't take American Express business credit cards (presumably to keep costs down ha ha) and their prices are exorbitant. I only deal with MacAuthority when I have NO OTHER OPTIONS. For all my repair work, I take my mac to CompUSA and they do a good job, they're cheaper, and generally friendlier. They also tend to have a wider array of things I'll actually want to buy instead of things that they want to sell me.

I won't cry if MacAuthority goes the way of these other dinosaurs.

[JCF]

I'm normally a bystander in this forum, but this topic has prompted me to post. Here in the bustling metropolis of Wichita, KS, we have no Apple Retailers, but a CompUSA, and a reseller called Haddock (http://www.gohaddock.com/).

I'll never forget my first experience with them (Haddock). I was a recent PC to Mac convert, and was relocating back to Wichita. While in town looking at houses, I stopped by Haddock and asked for the free OSX upgrade that had just came out (was it 10.1?). They gave me kind of a puzzled look and said, "Uhhh, do you shop here? I mean, are you a regular customer?". I replied that I had lived out of state for 4 years, and was just returning to Wichita. They said, "Well, we kinda have these reserved for our regular customers."

Heh. I laughed and walked out, headed over to CompUSA, got my product, and never looked back. Since then (2002), I've purchased (from CompUSA):

dual 1.25Ghz G4
dual 2.0Ghz G5
G4 20" iMac
12" Powerbook G4
23" Cinema Display
Airport Base Station
2- Airport Extreme cards
Cables, software, etc.

So, Haddock, and all other resellers like you, I offer this advice: Get Bent. I hope you -do- close down, and I hope you always wonder why.

Always remember, there's two sides to every story.

[Chip NoVaMac]

I'm normally a bystander in this forum, but this topic has prompted me to post. Here in the bustling metropolis of Wichita, KS, we have no Apple Retailers, but a CompUSA, and a reseller called Haddock (http://www.gohaddock.com/).

I'll never forget my first experience with them (Haddock). I was a recent PC to Mac convert, and was relocating back to Wichita. While in town looking at houses, I stopped by Haddock and asked for the free OSX upgrade that had just came out (was it 10.1?). They gave me kind of a puzzled look and said, "Uhhh, do you shop here? I mean, are you a regular customer?". I replied that I had lived out of state for 4 years, and was just returning to Wichita. They said, "Well, we kinda have these reserved for our regular customers."

Heh. I laughed and walked out, headed over to CompUSA, got my product, and never looked back. Since then (2002), I've purchased (from CompUSA):

dual 1.25Ghz G4
dual 2.0Ghz G5
G4 20" iMac
12" Powerbook G4
23" Cinema Display
Airport Base Station
2- Airport Extreme cards
Cables, software, etc.

So, Haddock, and all other resellers like you, I offer this advice: Get Bent. I hope you -do- close down, and I hope you always wonder why.

Always remember, there's two sides to every story.

Granted your story has two sides. One is a reseller that could have earned your business, maybe. And the reseller that probably had too many users using them for free services, being abused by those that shopped CompUSA or the web and want "free" local support.

I hope that customers that no longer get personal service from the smaller resellers once they are gone in the future get "bent" when the big box stores no longer have to care.

[crazedbytheheat]

The selection is good, but...

Elgibility to Purchase

The UCF Computer Store caters specifically to current students, staff and faculty of UCF and surrounding Community Colleges.

Sorry. It helps when you work there, I guess.

Hmmm, so maybe it's time to take fly fishing at SCC. :-D

[JCF]

Granted your story has two sides. One is a reseller that could have earned your business, maybe. And the reseller that probably had too many users using them for free services, being abused by those that shopped CompUSA or the web and want "free" local support.

I hope that customers that no longer get personal service from the smaller resellers once they are gone in the future get "bent" when the big box stores no longer have to care.

Well, this reseller will never know if they could've got my business or not, since they didn't even TRY. Not ONCE. That's kinda my point.

Here's a customer that walks in, off the street, who explains they have just moved to the city. What better way of winning them over then to tell them to basically F-off.

Listen, they had every opportunity to get my business. But in business, there are risks. You risk helping a customer who uses your shop as an internet showroom. That's life, and if you didn't want those risks, you shouldn't have started the business.

I just don't want to hear them whining that business sucks because of Apple. While I'm sure there's some truth to that, the fact in most cases is, business sucks because of the reseller, and cases like mine.

[billystlyes]

I hope Smalldog makes it they rock! I think the biggest problem is these dealers cannot get product from Apple in a timely matter.

[Mr_Ed]

I know I'm lazy, but couldn't they have put the new Orlando store about 15 miles further east...

Those two locations, the Florida Mall and the Millenia Mall, are fine for tourists, but they are near each other. I guess it's for product placement. Maybe they're looking to attract the attention of rich stock investors on vacation at WDW Resorts. I know that there are stores in the Millenia Mall that are basically showcases for expensive brands, like Tiffany & Co.

The shopping area that attracts the majority of tourists, especially ones who own euros :( (poor $), is the Belz Factory Outlet Mall. I recommend going if you visit here. Lots of good deals on clothing.

For now, the Computer Store at the University of Central Florida will serve my needs.
I would love a store on the east side of Orlando since that's where I work and live but I can also see they would get a lot more traffic in those 2 malls (Millenia, Florida) than any other mall in the area. Then again, "Waterford Lakes" always seems busy and it's on the east side . . . :)

I don't know if Orlando has ANY area where a stand-alone (ie. no shopping mall/center) Apple store would do well.

[Mr_Ed]

I'm kind of curious about what you expected. :confused: As far as I can tell the Millenia store carries everything and the staff seems friendly and knowledgeable. I'm be totally happy to have even a mini store over here in Oviedo. Not complaining, though; still only about 30-45 min. drive to all that Apple goodness. For those who care, this will mean that the only two Apple stores in all of Orlando are approx. 10 minutes apart. On the plus side, maybe this will mean the store isn't always packed.
:p
The store does carry everything 'Apple' but not much in the way of accessories or software. I guess I was expecting something a little bigger with larger (more hardware) displays/demo areas for the different products. It seems a bit tight and it's not even one of those new "mini" stores. That said, I have not actually visited any other Apple store so my expectations might very well have been unrealistic since they were based on photos from other store openings. Heck, maybe I'm just complaining about feeling crowded in there :)

I also live in Oviedo so I would definitely not complain about a mini store at the Ovideo Marketplace :)

[visor]

... basically a consequent thing to do.
I've bought a lot of stuff online at the apple store - the quality of the products are basically pathetic. keybors keys are basely pressable on my ibook, i'm still waiting for my 200 euro mail in refound (5 month now, i guess i'll never get it. Delivery times are the worst i've ever seen in any store....
Killing resellers makes it probably easier to hide the lacking quality in the products - but it'll backlash, so much is for sure.

[ZipZilla]

I WISH APPLE WOULD QUIT TAKING THEIR TIME ON A DAYTON AREA STORE. There are two possibilities, Dayton Mall and FairField Commons. Dayton Mall should not be called that since it is out of the way for most people in the Dayton area. I think FairField Commons would be a better location, it's right across from Wright State Univ., which has a significantly good number of Mac people. Plus, I need a job, a good job. I can't stand working for Wally World anymore.

Does anybody have any good advice for how I can make the transformation from that damn blue vest to the wonderful white apple?


I would love to see a store in Dayton...driving to Cincinnati sucks! I actually think that new upscale mall being built along 675 called "The Greene" is a potential Apple store site, although it might kill an excellent independent reseller nearby.

[analogkid]

Alright, now let's get one in Georgia south of Macon & east of Valdosta!

PLEASE!

Savannah?

hmnnn- couldnt see that. Speaking of resellers I went to AIS in Savannah and innocently asked about the price for a 1gb ram chip for my new ibook. I had to argue with the salesman for 5 minutes that you could, indeed, put a 1gb stick in it. Finally I got him on the Apple sight and showed him. He then insisted that must be brand new from the 768mb limit.
Mind you this was last week.

Anyways, New Egg was happy to sell me the ram for $186, but i did take pitty on the place and leave with a Airport Express... dont think Ill go back though when i get a 40gb ipod.

[ZipZilla]

Savannah?

hmnnn- couldnt see that. Speaking of resellers I went to AIS in Savannah and innocently asked about the price for a 1gb ram chip for my new ibook. I had to argue with the salesman for 5 minutes that you could, indeed, put a 1gb stick in it. Finally I got him on the Apple sight and showed him. He then insisted that must be brand new from the 768mb limit.
Mind you this was last week.

Anyways, New Egg was happy to sell me the ram for $186, but i did take pitty on the place and leave with a Airport Express... dont think Ill go back though when i get a 40gb ipod.

He just feel prey to Apple's marketing limits for RAM. Nearly every Mac with two RAM slots since the original iMac in 1998 supports 2GB of RAM. It's just a matter of getting the right chips.

[jaromski]

No, I named the 5 biggest states but 82% of our sales come from 11 states. The other 6 are PA, OH, MI, GA, NJ and NC.

The 80/20 rule is quite common in business and seems to hold true most of the time. That's why you see companies locate stores in clusters and people outside these areas bitching about where their stores are.

Retailers look at a lot of metrics in opening a store (population, income, mall traffic, mall sales per square foot etc.) in deciding on a location. I'm sure Apple also looks at the numbers of their authorized dealers in the area.

Yeah I was just busting your balls a little because you only had mentioned 5. But I agree the 80/20 rule has reared its head many a time to me as well.

-jaromski

[kingtj]

I know this may not be a popular opinion, but frankly, I think most people getting into the business of reselling Apple computers are utterly foolish and misguided.

It seems completely obvious that Apple wants to sell their own products and services *themselves*, and the ONLY reason they even give so much as a nod and a second glance at "authorized Apple resellers" is because doing so furthers their profits. (Hey, if you can get a bunch of stores to stock up on your products, it's easier to sell 5 or 10 at a time to each of them than to do all the work yourself of selling them 1 at a time to end users. Besides that, you can pick up a little extra money selling expensive training courses to people that want to work as technicians for these places.)

But look at the facts for a minute. Whenever a new product comes out that Apple knows is going to experience an initial surge in sales from "early adopters", the Apple stores get first pick. They look out for themselves first. It only makes sense.

Knowing full well that there's very LITTLE profit margin in reselling new Mac products, I'm amazed how many people still take a shot at becoming an independent Apple dealer. Yeah, I know.... they just love the machines and are confident they can provide a better level of customer service than Apple can. But does it *really* work? I'd say typically no, and in a few exceptional cases, yes - but not to a hugely profitable extent.

Here in St. Louis, we had a place simply called "The Mac Store", and I never heard almost anything good said about them. They were patronized at least partially out of people's guilt. "Gee, I really *want* to support the little guy and help keep another Mac store in town!" But customer service was lacking (you'd call and always get a recording ... almost never a live human answering), and on occasions when I went in asking for an item, it was never in stock anyway. The old standby of "We can order that in for you." doesn't cut it nowdays. I can order it myself, thanks - and without your markup on top of it!

Now, they're out of business, and there's a newcomer on the local scene called "Mac HQ". They have a much nicer store and location, and friendly enough people working there -- but I'd have to say the jury's still out on whether or not they'll succeed where "Mac Store" failed. For starters, I think any indepdent Mac store that wants to succeed *HAS* to find a niche. Offering the same products the Apple Stores offer should be secondary at best. They need to comb the Internet looking for interesting accessories and upgrades that could otherwise only be bought online, and get them in stock. Offer unique services! (Macintosh case mods, maybe? I put blue LED lights in the port-holes of my G4 tower in the past, and it was quite cool looking. I think some people would pay a few bucks to have such things done to their machines.) Sell the vintage Macs and cheap, used Mac software too. But the key here is CHEAP! I can regularly buy fully working and partially upgraded PowerMac 7300/7500/7600 systems on eBay for as little as $25 or so each. I don't want to go to a local store and see the same thing going for $199 or more! Make purchases of older Macs so inexpensive that people will grab one just "for the heck of it" - and profit later on their return trips to upgrade it with things like Sonnet upgrade boards and ATA-133 PCI controller cards. (And yes, keep a full line of those upgrade goodies in stock too!)

[mymemory]

if they were good stores they would stay in business, i know an particularly evil apple store near me that closed down soon after the london apple store opened, they sold old software at above RRP and they sold old macs that had problems with them at extortionate prices they gave apple a bad name

Ther are some good 3rd party Apple stores as bad, but let me tell you that the worst service I ever had was from the Apple Store in Soho, fisrt you have to make an appointment of a few hourse or days in advance to turn in your computer which have a problem and is under warranty.

Thne if you want to have better attention you would have to pay $100 for a card that can put you infront of the line with the other people that have the same card.

Then they take a look at your computer (several days later when your apointment is) and be sure that is Friday they will not send the computer to Apple next monday but in a week! so you may get it back in a month! But be sure you call because it can get lost like mine.

In a regular store you computer can get fixed by nex day for sure because they usually have all the tools and parts in stuck.

I mean, an Apple store is good to take a look to the computer and all devices but you get better deals in other stores and you bet faster service as well.

[inkswamp]

As a person who works for an Apple reseller I have to say not all of us are bad!

I realize that I'm in danger of painting with too wide a brush with some of my comments, but I feel that they are accurate in general. I understand that there are exceptions, and I have no doubt that those businesses will thrive. I can't believe that Apple could kill resellers like that out of simple greed. I can believe that Apple wouldn't think twice about competing with the ones not doing a good job... regardless of how long they've been around.

We have four Apple stores within a 100 miles radius of where I live and our local guys are thriving. I see a great contrast between them and many of the Mac resellers that I've dealt with in the past and that difference is primarily in service. On top of that, their stores are always clean, well-stocked and very nice looking inside. My wife and I are contemplating buying a 12" iBook and we went in to our local shop, were greeted, helped and given attentive service. The guy helping us gave us no salesman B.S. and was quick to offer info and help (and even left us alone when it became clear that my wife just wanted to futz around with their floor model for a bit.)

I rarely get service like that at any store--not just Mac stores. These guys have been so helpful with my past purchases and needs that I have a sense of being a valued customer there. Honestly, if an Apple store moved into town, I likely would still do all my business with our local guys. I contend that if Mac resellers were giving it their all, they would have nothing to fear.

[pubwvj]

two independent Apple resellers are shutting down and blaming Apple for their inability to continue.

It may be just as well. Our local Apple dealer is absolutely pathetic. The used to stock one or two machines. Now they stock none. They expect you to come in and order it at full price from them, they then place an order with Apple, charge you for shipping plus sales tax plus service fees. On top of that they offer horrible service and even sell things that are not compatible. I've run into several other dealers over the years that were like this dealer. Bad news.

Going through MacMall or the Apple on-line store is a Much better option.

[d.perel]

Maybe this will be a big cleansing process- The bad resellers will be wiped out, the good ones will keep in business. Maybe more apple stores in tourist locations will make people go home and buy from a reseller anyway.

[Paul O'Keefe]

Apple is slowing but surely starving some of it's strongest supports over the year out of business. It does sound like unfair trade practices if apple is not providing products to resellers in a timely fashion or are holding on to the products for themselves. And if you're a reseller and you complain, then you are biting the hand that feeds you.

It's quite obvious that Apple want's to move to a more direct purchasing business model. This works fine for the online store... but they are taking on huge risks when it comes to heavily investing into retail, brick and mortar stores.

Alienating the people who sell your products is a great way to get ahead.

[hayesk]

Apple is slowing but surely starving some of it's strongest supports over the year out of business. It does sound like unfair trade practices if apple is not providing products to resellers in a timely fashion or are holding on to the products for themselves. And if you're a reseller and you complain, then you are biting the hand that feeds you.

Except we not sure how much of strong "supporters" these independent resellers are. Most independent dealers I've known have been content to ride on the coattails of Apple's brand loyalty and have done nothing themselves to promote the platform.

As for not getting product, the question has been raised about the credit ratings of these dealers with their distributors, not directly with Apple. Some Apple dealers seem to be able to get products more than others - I wonder why?

[PretendPCuser]

Wow, an Apple store in Paramus NJ. That will make 4 stores within a 45 mile radius! Also there is a Compusa store in Paramus with a Kick-@ss Apple section and staffed with a really great Apple Rep ( Peter). Good News for us!

True that! An Apple store in Paramus would be great! Put it in where the old Gateway store used to be (though poor from a location standpoint) would be a funny thing. When it does get built, (I'm guessing at Garden State Plaza?!) Peter would make an excellent Genius! Apple, take note!

[PretendPCuser]

I've dealt with Tekserve in New York and they've been very good. (No, i don't work for them, but they saved my bacon a couple times!!)


Ther are some good 3rd party Apple stores as bad, but let me tell you that the worst service I ever had was from the Apple Store in Soho, fisrt you have to make an appointment of a few hourse or days in advance to turn in your computer which have a problem and is under warranty.

In a regular store you computer can get fixed by nex day for sure because they usually have all the tools and parts in stuck.

[Kinsella217]

True that! An Apple store in Paramus would be great! Put it in where the old Gateway store used to be (though poor from a location standpoint) would be a funny thing. When it does get built, (I'm guessing at Garden State Plaza?!) Peter would make an excellent Genius! Apple, take note!

I know I said this before, but I worked with Pete for a year in Pittsburgh, PA (if this is the same Pete I'm thinking of). Pete actually first told me about MacRumors... he's really got his stuff together, no doubt. I enjoyed working with him a lot.

Dan

[zwida]

I've dealt with Tekserve in New York and they've been very good. (No, i don't work for them, but they saved my bacon a couple times!!)

I can wholeheartedly second that. Fortunately, Tekserve is still doing a pretty good trade. I don't think they'll be going anywhere anytime soon.

Of course, if the other Apple retailers provided the same quality service and selection (in the same sort of market), they'd probably be OK too.

I wonder what percentage of NY uses a Mac. It's gotta be pretty darned high.

[macidiot]

The Sacramento store sucks. Bunch of liberals running the place with very little stock. Tried to get an antenna for my airport; they told me to try the web. Getting any attention from the staff is like watching molasses run from a tree and then you wait in line for the WONDERFUL cashier. The Apple store model is pathetic. You all bitch about Best Buy, well I am here to tell you the Apple store in the Arden Mall is a worse experience than any Best Buy.

The Apple stores here in L.A. aren't so hot either, at least at the Grove and Santa Monica stores. Getting help from an employee is an exercise in futility unless your either a gay man or a 20 yo girl with her thong showing. And in both cases, it apparently helps if your carrying some sort of rat-like dog. I sometimes end up resorting to dropping store items on the floor in order to get some sales help. I understand that the stores are usually crowded, but I shouldn't have to wait 20 minutes to talk to someone that works there.

As for independent retailers and Apple stock... all I know is that when new iPod models come out, Creative computers always seems to have a decent supply whereas the Apple stores are sold out. And Creative sells at a lower price than Apple...

[gopher]

Strange. I hear these complaints about Apple not shipping products to resellers in a timely manner, but our local Apple reseller always has plenty of inventory on the shelves. You're sure there's not more to this? Sounds to me that some of these resellers might not be forthcoming in all the details.

There is a point there. The Mac Mini was actually in stock the week it was released at one of our local resellers in Maryland at the same time Apple's own store didn't have any!

[coyote]

But for a credible store like Tom ran, many of you will never understand although his complaints and letters has everything making sense. I am a personal friend of Tom and I feel for him and his family and I wish him well.

I get the impression that 'personal friends' of Tom Santos were treated well at Macadam... no one else was. The store is notorious throughout the Bay Area for being appallingly bad. When you could get the sales people to look up from whatever first-person shooter they were playing, they would treat you with contempt. The sales floor was cluttered and it was impossible to find anything. Prices were often 10% *above* MSRP.

Really, I've warned hundreds of people away from Macadam, and it has nothing to do with an Apple Store opening in San Francisco. I recommended that they go to CompUSA rather than have the horrible experience they would get at Macadam.

And my experience is not unique. I only know one person who enjoyed going to Macadam, and she is a 'close personal friend' of Santos.

[steveh]

It's well known that Apple craps on resellers... from not giving them new products on time or enough, to not giving them price breaks when Apple drops hardware prices.

At least one of the now-defunct resellers, Macadam in S.F., has a long history of doing the same to customers. They've had a bad reputation locally for a long time, and being one of the very few dealers in the area is all that anyone can think of that let them remain in business.

[nichos]

I'm in Jacksonville - are they really opening up here? We were going to drive to Orlando next weekend just so I could visit an Apple store - do you know that for sure?

I'm not going to claim I "know know" for sure, but, I have 2.5 sources. One is this source here (http://www.macnn.com/articles/04/01/19/new.store.in.jacksonville/) which points to this article here about the new mall across from UNF (where I work, and attend). (http://www.macnn.com/articles/04/01/19/new.store.in.jacksonville/) That 1.5. The last one is a co-worker, who is in no way a mac user, nor an Apple employee, he must've heard it elsewhere, so, it seems almost definite. Send me a PM if you'd like to discuess. I think this thread is sick of FL stuff :)

[bousozoku]

The store does carry everything 'Apple' but not much in the way of accessories or software. I guess I was expecting something a little bigger with larger (more hardware) displays/demo areas for the different products. It seems a bit tight and it's not even one of those new "mini" stores. That said, I have not actually visited any other Apple store so my expectations might very well have been unrealistic since they were based on photos from other store openings. Heck, maybe I'm just complaining about feeling crowded in there :)

I also live in Oviedo so I would definitely not complain about a mini store at the Ovideo Marketplace :)

Oviedo Marketplace could use some decent store to draw people. The 20+ screen cinema barely drags people there. Perhaps, they could empty Dillards department store and put a real Apple store in place of that...

The store at Millenia is way too small in contrast to the store at International Plaza in Tampa.

[Silencio]

Apple's move to take over more of its own retail sales is driven by one factor: Dell. Dell doesn't have to worry about stepping on their wholesalers' or retailers' toes, because they don't have any middlemen at all. That gives them a tremendous advantage in letting them underprice their competition while still protecting their margins. Like it or not, they set the pace and Apple was smart to follow suit in its own way.

Even before Dell became an 800-pound gorilla, I have had very mixed experiences with third party Apple resellers. MACadam was by far the worst computer store I've ever been to. To be subjected to such a filthy and chaotic retail environment, to be treated with such disdain by half-witted employees, and to be overcharged across the board... it boggles my mind that they stayed in business as long as they did.

OTOH, the old ComputerWare chain was pretty good and reliable.

[Twinkie]

I don't think a lot of people are taking in to consideration areas that don't have Mac-centric stores to begin with.

Case in point: I live in southeast Michigan. Before the Apple Store at Twelve Oaks (which was one of the top-selling stores for a while) opened, the only obvious place to even look at a Mac was CompUSA. I can't speak for other areas, but I can tell you that the Mac sections in this area are... "unloved".

Even now, the only stores I'm aware of that sell Mac-related items are CompUSA and MicroCenter. And it's worth mentioning that I work in Ann Arbor -- allegedly a hotbed of Apple users -- and I'm not aware of any Mom & Pop type of store that caters to the Mac community. Sure, the book stores may sell Adobe CS, but that's really about it.

So for someone like me, I never would have bought a Mac, had it not been for the Apple Store. It's one thing to read about a computer... but it's something completely different to use one in a setting like the Apple Store, where software you'd want to use (Office, Photoshop, etc.) is installed on the demo systems, and you're not hounded by salespeople.

I don't think it's entirely logical for Apple to say "Okay, there's not much competition near our Twelve Oaks store, so items there will be sent for 15% below MSRP and as quickly as possible... but there's some competition around the Michigan Avenue store, so they'll get 5% below MSRP and we'll send them the same amount of products that Crazy Bob's Mac Palace gets."

[bousozoku]

...
Even before Dell became an 800-pound gorilla, I have had very mixed experiences with third party Apple resellers. MACadam was by far the worst computer store I've ever been to. To be subjected to such a filthy and chaotic retail environment, to be treated with such disdain by half-witted employees, and to be overcharged across the board... it boggles my mind that they stayed in business as long as they did.
...


I've been around plenty of those kinds of stores from the early days of micro computers in the late 1970s to mid-1980s. Arrogant staff and poor conditions lead me to drive further and to also start doing mail order.

I used to deal with The Home Computer Store for Atari equipment in Philly when I lived there. They were such nice people. Things were disorganised at times and things were sold at retail most times, but they were worth it. They enjoyed the computers and never had time to be arrogant.

Of course, they talked with Apple and Apple was arrogant and didn't want to be bothered, which is not surprising for 1990.

[Bonte]

I used to work for a rather small, local Apple Centre in Belgium, between 1991 and 1997, until I started my own company. I sold the Apple gear, gave support to our customers, and went to our customer's homes and companies to install their newly bought computers and networks.
I can tell you that even back then the profit-margins were under 5%, actually bottom line no profit was made from selling computers (you couldn't even pay the staff from it). The profits came from repairs, support, periferals and software. So basically our store just sold the computers, and hoped the customers would come back for other things. In this manner the shop survived for almost 20 years (they started in the days of Apple II). Recently, when the Apple Store begun having success, they just quit. People go to the Apple store now for periferals and software, and repairs are handled directly by Apple. Having an Apple shop nowadays, is in my opinion just plain suicide.

Profit-margins were never great, not with Apple and not with any other PC vendor unless ya assemble them personally. You indeed need to make profit on periferals and software. My experience (!) is that most stores were/are Mac and PC (i just hate that) and are business orientated, making them very expensive for support and compatible PC extra's like printers and stuff. At best they do extra's for pro photo and video clients but also at a high price. Nothing for the home user, no starter clubs, no lan party's, no fairs, ... Now not even a store in the wide neighborhood at the moment. I saw some great small stores in Amsterdam so don't tell me its impossible to do. :(

[zelmo]

It's great that Apple continues to open new stores, although reaching into new markets should be a priority, rather than hitting the areas that already have a store or two.

As for the resellers: It's a shame for them that they have to close. The resellers were pretty much the only place people could go and see Macs and peripherals back in the day before Apple opened their own retail outlets. A lot of these folks chose to sell and support Apple because of their admiration for the product and their desire to evangelize it. To see that love and loyalty get trod on is just plain sad. But times change.
Now Apple is selling their product direct in the retail space, and pushing hard to grow mindshare and market share. They are naturally going to offer pricing that is as good as what resellers can offer, just to be competitive with them.
Great resellers will survive because, when the pricing is pretty much the same, service is what brings people back to buy again. Some resellers were probably only surviving because we consumers had no place else to go, just catalogs and online. Now that there are options, it's time to prove they deserve to be there.
To those resellers and their employees who have shut down for whatever reason and are now in the job market, why not put in an application at your local Apple Store? If you are as good as you think you are, they could probably use you.

[scat999999]

Apple, we need a Nashville store come on!

One is coming to the Green Hills Mall in the fall. I saw it in the paper and it was confirmed by the info desk at the mall. It will be inside the mall.

[schatten]

Really? It's well-known, is it? And where do we get that information? From unbiased sources or from resellers themselves? Hmmm...

Apple isn't in the business of giving resellers price breaks or making life easy for them. Anyone going into that line of work with that belief is in for a big surprise. Resellers must make their business worthwhile to customers by offering excellent service and a shopping experience that makes people ignore any supposed disadvantages. Services ranks very high on the list of customer expectations. What has driven me away from most Apple resellers is not prices or inventory shortcomings, but inattentive service and a sense that the people at a given business just don't give a rip about what I'm there for.

Yes, there are exceptions, but a majority of what I've dealt with tells me that this is typical amongst Apple resellers. If Apple can do a better job and they are putting resellers out of business because of it, then I have no sympathy. If the need wasn't there, Apple wouldn't be rushing in to fill it.

I used to work for an Apple reseller who did an exceedingly good job of selling and servicing Apple products. I was the service technician specializing in Apple support & repair. I was very good at my job & very efficient. Apple rates all their resellers' techniciains on a percentage scale, which directly effects how much we'd get paid. I consistantly exceeded Apple's own service standards & brought in large revenue from Apple for warranty repairs.

That is, until the local Apple Store opened. After that, replacement parts would often come in late (Apple used to ship next-day, it turned into 4 or 5 day turnaround) and Apple generally became less supportive of my own customers (they would direct customers away from me & the store I worked (where they bought the Mac in the first place) to their new Apple Store. Apple forbade us as a reseller from backstocking replacement parts for warranty repairs, but their own retail stores have a large backstock of parts. Thus they can do a repair in hours which would take me days, waiting for them to deliver the parts.

As far as retail goes, Apple consistantly delayed shipments of product to the reseller when their store (but a few miles away) would have plenty of the latest goods.

Apple undercuts their resellers. It's proven. It's bad business. It will bite them in the arse in a few years. I guarentee it.

[mdriftmeyer]

Think Enterprise Hardware in that store. And since Apple will be having a booth at this April's FOSE Conference it won't surprise me if they design this store to target the Federal Government's needs.


Hmmmm... the Washington, DC metro area already has stores in Tyson's Corner (the first Apple Store), Clarendon, Montgomery Mall, and Bethesda (mini store)...

Do we really need this new one in Arlington (Pentagon City)?

Don't get me wrong -- I'm all for expansion (and Tysons always has a lot of customers when I stop by), but adding a new store in a market with four already when so many places have none at all? Odd.

I know tons of Mac-interested people in the Roanoke, VA area who can't justify going all the way to DC or Richmond to experience/buy Apple products, and nobody else in the area carries them. Those are the kinds of places Apple should go now, since the major markets are largely covered.

[vaal]

Maybe if you walk. Pentagon City Mall is about 200 YARDS from the Pentagon. Now if they could open a store in the mall that exists underneath the Pentagon...

[Chip NoVaMac]

Maybe if you walk. Pentagon City Mall is about 200 YARDS from the Pentagon. Now if they could open a store in the mall that exists underneath the Pentagon...

Too limiting in the post 9-11 security world. Now one of their Apple mini stores that could feed off the Pentagon City Mall location would be nice.

[wdlove]

Too limiting in the post 9-11 security world. Now one of their Apple mini stores that could feed off the Pentagon City Mall location would be nice.

I like that, Pentagon Apple Store. Apple enters into the security arena.

[Gasu E.]

The old 80/20 rule. I head up sales for a national company and 80% of our business come from 20% of the states. NY, FL, CA, TX and IL are where most of the money is. Sorry if people don't want to hear that but that's where a national seller is going to focus.

Seems kind of simplistic. If I were placing an Apple-store type retail outlet, I would be looking primarily at population density, and secondarily at income density. The five states with the highest population densities are NJ, RI, MA, CT, and MD (NY is next). CA is 11th and TX far down the list. Of course, metropolitan clusters are more important than states. The cities with the highest density are NYC, SF, CHI, BOS, Newark (oh, well), PHI, DC, BAL and LA.

[dnnx]

frikin whiners,

I know of several independent Apple resellers across the country that are actually expanding or have recently expanded. The key: good customer service. They even are relative close to Apple stores. Stuff gets backordered, even the apple store has to wait. But everyone gets their stuff.

[Sayhey]

Seems kind of simplistic. If I were placing an Apple-store type retail outlet, I would be looking primarily at population density, and secondarily at income density. The five states with the highest population densities are NJ, RI, MA, CT, and MD (NY is next). CA is 11th and TX far down the list. Of course, metropolitan clusters are more important than states. The cities with the highest density are NYC, SF, CHI, BOS, Newark (oh, well), PHI, DC, BAL and LA.

Apple is doing just what you are writing about. Of the 102 current stores and 22 planned stores confirmed by job listings, we can see this pattern.

Of the top 50 consolidated metro areas (CMSA) and metro areas (MSA) in the US (not counting Puerto Rico) 44 have at least one store or one planned. This roughly corresponds to metro areas with over one million people.

Of those CMSAs and MSAs that have a population of over 2 million people, Apple has at least two stores currently operating or planned in 20 out of 22. Only Cleveland and Pittsburgh have only one store.

In the nine CMSAs with over 5 million people, six have at least 5 stores or will have with current plans. Philadelphia, Detroit, and Dallas are currently the exceptions.

In short, Apple is putting its stores where the people are. Not much of a surprise here, but it is disconcerting to those who live in the Dakotas and Wyoming.

[applebum]

Just one in SC. That's all I'm asking. Or maybe one in Augusta GA?! What does Apple have against us?! There are 2 in NC and 2 in GA? We said we were sorry for that whole Civil War thing! C'mon man, don't hold a grudge!
Hey Centris - I hear you - I live in Augusta. Bring one on. Unfortunately, I don't think there are enough Mac users here to justify a store in Augusta. But why not Columbia, SC - it is the capital for crying out loud. I have to go to Charlotte or Atlanta to see those pretty new products.

[Sayhey]

Hey Centris - I hear you - I live in Augusta. Bring one on. Unfortunately, I don't think there are enough Mac users here to justify a store in Augusta. But why not Columbia, SC - it is the capital for crying out loud. I have to go to Charlotte or Atlanta to see those pretty new products.

South Carolina has no metro areas with over a million people, so it hasn't been high on Apple's list. However, there is one metro area in the state that has almost a million people in it - the Greenville/Spartanburg/Anderson area. In fact there are five metro areas in the US that are smaller and have Apple stores - Honolulu, Albany, Tucson, Syracuse, and Des Moines. So there is hope. Only Des Moines is smaller than the Columbia and Charleston metro areas, but there are obviously other factors than just population that Apple takes into account. It looks like SC should be getting a store soon.

[vitaboy]

The former Apple sellers people mentioned not being able to sell 100 Macs a year, and couldn't get discounts because of this: excuse me, but what business could survive that doesn't sell 100 of something all year long? This sounds like a hobby club instead of a business.


I totally agree. 100 Macs a year is only 8 or 9 a month. If you as as retail store can't sell that many, then you don't deserve to be in retail.

The problem with these stores (in my opinion) is that they are run by geeks with little imagination. The poster who pointed out independent retail stores are dark, dank, cluttered, and overpriced was exactly right. Seeing the bright and spacious Apple Store, what did the independent retailers do to respond? Continue to operate their stores like a hobby club instead of remodeling and making the stores a welcoming experience.

People go to the Apple Stores for a reason, and guess what, it's not because of price. People go because when you walk into an Apple Store, you can jump on any machine to check your email and no one bothers you. People go because you have free walk-in tech support, where sales staff will spend the time to answer your questions (for the most part). People visit the Apple Stores because the place is clean, uncluttered, bright, and welcome.

The independent retailers were unwilling to make the changes necessary to move from the bottom-line, hobby shop to being a welcome, refreshing retail experience. There are probably a lot of things independent retailers could have done (and still do) to serve a profitable, niche market. Like Xserve consulting for small local businesses, where they can go in and set-up an Xserve to replace an existing PC server and provide on-going consulting. Or catering to high-end market by setting up Macs to work specifically with high-end digital cameras and camcorders. But that sounds like adapting and making big changes, which the independent retailers don't want to do because - surprise, surprise - they don't want to "waste" money making these changes. Serving the customer better than the Apple Store? Hardly.

[letskeepitstr8]

Strange. I hear these complaints about Apple not shipping products to resellers in a timely manner, but our local Apple reseller always has plenty of inventory on the shelves. You're sure there's not more to this? Sounds to me that some of these resellers might not be forthcoming in all the details.
Please enlighten the rest of us. What is the name of the dealer that always has plenty of inventory and in what state.?
Gratefull for the info.

[letskeepitstr8]

[QUOTE=vitaboy]I totally agree. 100 Macs a year is only 8 or 9 a month. If you as as retail store can't sell that many, then you don't deserve to be in retail.

Did you know that Apple forbid dealers from selling the educational market? Schools, Colleges and Universities. Did you know that often Apple sell to the end users at dealer cost? Making you believe the dealer is overpriced. Those dealers had 100% market share over the years. Then Apple decided to forbid them from selling a major market( Educational) . . Then Apple decided to delay service parts shipment to the dealers and often send defective parts to the dealers which delay repairs. Apple also does not reimburse the dealer for a lot of the work that the dealer do in the warranty area. ... This turns intentionaly the good experience at an Apple dealer to a bad one.
Did you know that Apple gross margins to the dealers is about 8%.?
Did you know that when a dealer sell an iBook for $1,000 and I decide to charge it on a credit card the dealer is left with less then $55.00 gross profit? That is about a tip for a $300 dinner we leave to a waiter. That is 15 to 18% to a waiter that does not have the overfhead that the dealer has.
Apple is purposely making it a bad experience at the dealership to get the reaction you have.
Apple refuse to invest in the dealer channel and is making sure that the channel disappear in time.
I give a lot of credit to the dealers that have survived despite of Apple. Try walking in the above shoes.
Did you know the above?

[Sayhey]

Can someone please explain to me how these shrinking profit margins and supply difficulties are different for Apple resellers than for PC resellers?

Are the supply difficulties relegated to only small resellers or is it to all non-Apple owned stores? I sure don't see a problem with stock at CompUSA or Fry's. If it is a preferential supply to large distributors is there something illegal about that?

Folks, I don't want the "mom and pop" reseller to go out of business, but if it is between that and the continued problems of selling through channels that haven't a clue about how to sell - then bye bye mom & pop.

If Apple is doing something illegal in their relations with resellers, then they should be forced to stop. However, most of what I see is complaints about not have the retail space to themselves and not being able (or willing) to fight aggressively for more of the market. There's a whole lot of PC users out there waiting to be given a reason to buy Apple products. Stop complaining and go get 'em guys!

[Fender]

Not sure how many people are aware, but they are hiring for the Apple Store in Toronto:

http://www.apple.com/ca/retail/jobs/

[SwooshOU]

Finally, an Apple Store in Oklahoma City... 5 minutes from my apartment, too! Yesssssssssss....

Of the five malls in the OKC metro, Penn Square Mall is the best choice for Apple. It's the most upscale of them all and just a great fit. I wonder where it will be located in the mall... There's an empty space at the center court.

[Sayhey]

Apple's website now has a listing for the Beverly Center (http://www.beverlycenter.com/) in Los Angeles. This makes it the 23th confirmed location for future openings this year.

[Doctor Q]

Apple's website now has a listing for the Beverly Center (http://www.beverlycenter.com/) in Los Angeles. This makes it the 23th confirmed location for future openings this year.I don't see any mention of Apple at the Beverly Center site nor any mention of Beverly Center at apple.com. Do you?

Perhaps you mean Century City, in Los Angeles, where Apple has job listings (job requisition numbers 2143361, 2285554, 2143359, and 2143360)?

[Sayhey]

I don't see any mention of Apple at the Beverly Center site nor any mention of Beverly Center at apple.com. Do you?

Perhaps you mean Century City, in Los Angeles, where Apple has job listings (job requisition numbers 2143361, 2285554, 2143359, and 2143360)?

I just rechecked the listings and it is no longer there. It is not the first time locations have been posted only to be dropped later. I'll keep checking to see if it is reposted.

For the future, check out Apple's "Search Jobs" (https://jobs.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Employment.woa/9/wo/fxkpaQU8bCPjhCv9ru3aKg/0.6.5.3.19) page. If you click on the "Apple Retail Store" box and look through the listings you will find all the current and future locations in a scroll through menu. This page replaced the "drop down" menu that Apple had for years.

edit: as of this update there is a listing for a Store Manager at "Los Angeles-BeverlyCenter-R124, CA, USA" on Apple's "local Apple Store" (https://jobs.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Employment.woa/wa/retail) page. I'd say that confirms it.

[Sayhey]

Just checked on the Century City website, and while it does include Apple on its coming soon (http://www.westfield.com/centurycity/makeover/comingsoon/index.inc) page, the construction mess (both in the mall and in the streets surrounding the mall) sounds horrendous. Anyone close by who knows what the actual situation is?

COMING SOON

As the transformation of*Westfield Century City*progresses, you’ll see more retailers coming aboard, including Williams-Sonoma’s new concept, Williams-Sonoma Home. With its hip, up-to-the-minute fashions, Limited Too is certain to be a favorite with style-conscious girls between 7 and 14. Wetzel’s Pretzels offers the perfect on-the-run snack in a number of mouth-watering varieties. Wondering how to better organize your home? The Container Store has the solution for every room. iPod and Mac devotees will soon be able to try and buy the very latest electronics at The Apple Store.* Our latest lease signings include Aerosoles, a store offering stylish, colorful, and above all, comfortable shoes for women.* And we're proud to announce that Thomas Pink Co., direct from Jermyn Street in London, is opening its first Southern California store at Westfield Century City.* An international success story, Thomas Pink features the finest luxury shirts, ties and accessories for men and women.

[Doctor Q]

Just checked on the Century City website, and while it does include Apple on its coming soon (http://www.westfield.com/centurycity/makeover/comingsoon/index.inc) page, the construction mess (both in the mall and in the streets surrounding the mall) sounds horrendous. Anyone close by who knows what the actual situation is?I've was there a few times in the last month. The construction area is confined to one large (southwest) corner of the mall. Some of the parking entrances are closed, so it can get a little more crowded getting in and out during busy hours, but life goes on as usual in the rest of the stores.

I heard (no proof) that they are relocating the AMC theaters to the new area, and converting to stadium-style seating. I'm not sure where in the layout the Apple store will show up. Should I get in line now for the store opening, just in case? :)

[dnnx]

[QUOTE=vitaboy]

Did you know that Apple gross margins to the dealers is about 8%.?
Did you know that when a dealer sell an iBook for $1,000 and I decide to charge it on a credit card the dealer is left with less then $55.00 gross profit? That is about a tip for a $300 dinner we leave to a waiter. That is 15 to 18% to a waiter that does not have the overfhead that the dealer has.
Apple is purposely making it a bad experience at the dealership to get the reaction you have.
Apple refuse to invest in the dealer channel and is making sure that the channel disappear in time.
I give a lot of credit to the dealers that have survived despite of Apple. Try walking in the above shoes.
Did you know the above?


And how is this different from the Apple corporate stores?

If it is 8%, it cost the Apple stores have about the same.
Why is Apple going to sell them cheaper to the Apple stores? The manufacturing VP will get pissed because he wont hit his revenue projections. The Apple stores have to turn a profit just like the independents, if not they wont last long.

Check my previous post.

[iJon]

[QUOTE=letskeepitstr8]


And how is this different from the Apple corporate stores?

If it is 8%, it cost the Apple stores have about the same.
Why is Apple going to sell them cheaper to the Apple stores? The manufacturing VP will get pissed because he wont hit his revenue projections. The Apple stores have to turn a profit just like the independents, if not they wont last long.

Check my previous post.
You bring up an interesting subject. The exact subject that is also fueling part of the lawsuit. Granted their is a lot of questions to still be answered but you might find this interesting, it's dated but has a lot of information.

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/retailaccounting.html

jon

[Sayhey]

I've was there a few times in the last month. The construction area is confined to one large (southwest) corner of the mall. Some of the parking entrances are closed, so it can get a little more crowded getting in and out during busy hours, but life goes on as usual in the rest of the stores.

I heard (no proof) that they are relocating the AMC theaters to the new area, and converting to stadium-style seating. I'm not sure where in the layout the Apple store will show up. Should I get in line now for the store opening, just in case? :)

The mall website has a phone # that will tell you in excruciating detail all the wonderful improvements there are implementing, including the theaters relocation, but I wouldn't hold my breath or get in line waiting for the Apple store to open. At least not for a little while. ;) If you can't see any construction on the store is sounds like at least a month or more before opening. ifoAppleStore (http://www.ifoapplestore.com/stores/century_city_0807/index.html) had photos from last August showing the location, but it seems way, way behind schedule.

[pugdog]

Well, I see a pattern starting in my life. Every time I move from a city, they get an apple store. After I moved from Kansas City...apple store, after moving from Oklahoma City...apple store. I'm not planning on moving from Bend, OR anytime soon, but I guess after I do ... apple store! ;)

[wdlove]

Well, I see a pattern starting in my life. Every time I move from a city, they get an apple store. After I moved from Kansas City...apple store, after moving from Oklahoma City...apple store. I'm not planning on moving from Bend, OR anytime soon, but I guess after I do ... apple store! ;)

That is a very intriguing pattern. If you are happy in Bend, OR, then it's best to stay. How far are you from an Apple Store?

[Sayhey]

That is a very intriguing pattern. If you are happy in Bend, OR, then it's best to stay. How far are you from an Apple Store?

What'd you think, wdlove? Should he nail his feet to the floor and wait for those slow moving stores to catch up to him? ;)

[Sayhey]

I see ifoAppleStore (http://www.ifoapplestore.com/) has the latest rumor concerning international stores.

Apple has selected the location for its next Japan retail store-- the energetic Shibuya district of Tokyo, populated by the teen set, strobe lights, pachinko parlors, bright neon lights, and sometimes outrageous fashion. The Akihabara district might have been a more likely location, with its concentration of electronics retailers, or the Shinjuku district, home of Yodabashi Camera, previously the country's largest Apple reseller. But both of those location are still on the "possible" list for future stores.

This would be Tokyo's second store and Japan's fourth.

[macidiot]

I don't see any mention of Apple at the Beverly Center site nor any mention of Beverly Center at apple.com. Do you?

Perhaps you mean Century City, in Los Angeles, where Apple has job listings (job requisition numbers 2143361, 2285554, 2143359, and 2143360)?

doesn't sound right to me either. That's very close to the Grove store. I do think they should put one in Bev. Hills, maybe on Beverly (the street). But I suppose that would be too close to Century City (only 1/2-1 mile away).

I'm surprised they haven't opened one up in the South Bay or Encino areas instead of just blanketing the westside. I guess Fry's has some serious clout, since they have stores in those areas.

[gopher]

doesn't sound right to me either. That's very close to the Grove store. I do think they should put one in Bev. Hills, maybe on Beverly (the street). But I suppose that would be too close to Century City (only 1/2-1 mile away).

I'm surprised they haven't opened one up in the South Bay or Encino areas instead of just blanketing the westside. I guess Fry's has some serious clout, since they have stores in those areas.

The location of another major retailer nearby hasn't stopped Apple in San Francisco. Their San Francisco store is exactly one block from CompUSA on Market Street. And a two story Apple Store at that!

[zwida]

The location of another major retailer nearby hasn't stopped Apple in San Francisco. Their San Francisco store is exactly one block from CompUSA on Market Street. And a two story Apple Store at that!

Agreed. I don't think Apple would object to placing a store directly next to Fry's if it was a choice location. I don't think Apple is all that concerned about the longterm health of any of its current retailers.

Of course, I don't have a problem with any of this either, which may put me at odds with quite a few folks out there.

[Sayhey]

doesn't sound right to me either. That's very close to the Grove store. I do think they should put one in Bev. Hills, maybe on Beverly (the street). But I suppose that would be too close to Century City (only 1/2-1 mile away).

I'm surprised they haven't opened one up in the South Bay or Encino areas instead of just blanketing the westside. I guess Fry's has some serious clout, since they have stores in those areas.

It may not sound right, but it is right. The Apple website is advertising for the usual positions for this upcoming store. Check out the "local Apple Store" (https://jobs.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Employment.woa/wa/retail) page of listings and you will see several job openings for "Los Angeles-BeverlyCenter-R124, CA, USA."

As to other areas in LA, isn't Manhattan Beach a little away from the cluster around the Grove? They are also planning a new store there. LA is such a huge market, I think Apple will be putting new stores in the metro area for years to come.

[macidiot]

It may not sound right, but it is right. The Apple website is advertising for the usual positions for this upcoming store. Check out the "local Apple Store" (https://jobs.apple.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Employment.woa/wa/retail) page of listings and you will see several job openings for "Los Angeles-BeverlyCenter-R124, CA, USA."

As to other areas in LA, isn't Manhattan Beach a little away from the cluster around the Grove? They are also planning a new store there. LA is such a huge market, I think Apple will be putting new stores in the metro area for years to come.

Granted, the area around bev center and the grove is densely populated so they could very well be opening a store there. Just seems there are better places to put one.

Manhattan Beach is about 20-30minutes south of Santa Monica. And its at least 45 minutes from the Grove (normal traffic if you take the highways). Oh and Manhattan Beach is in South Bay. South Bay is Manhattan Beach, Hermosa Beach, Redondo Beach, Torrance...

[mixgrafix]

I used to own a small scuba shop outside of Detroit, michigan. My suppliers could not fulfill there product obligations to me, and I actually had a piece of equipment that was shipped to me 372 days after they announced it was available. I offered my customers another product, but they wanted the product that the company said was available. They gave it to the dealers that were larger in the area.

I feel for the people that lost there business due to bias.

[macidiot]

Agreed. I don't think Apple would object to placing a store directly next to Fry's if it was a choice location. I don't think Apple is all that concerned about the longterm health of any of its current retailers.

Of course, I don't have a problem with any of this either, which may put me at odds with quite a few folks out there.

I'm no fan of Fry's. That Manhattan Beach store is a pit of despair, especially the Apple section. They seem to cater to the ultra-geek, dirt poor gamer that overclocked his celeron to 15Ghz and cools it with an adapted leaf blower. And also has added enough lighting to his case to rival a Vegas casino. ;) To be fair, I do shop there and often find what I'm looking for though the quality isn't often the best. Stuff like usb hubs, cables, adapters, and beef jerky. ;)

[BigHat]

Hmmmm... the Washington, DC metro area already has stores in Tyson's Corner (the first Apple Store), Clarendon, Montgomery Mall, and Bethesda (mini store)...

Do we really need this new one in Arlington (Pentagon City)?

Don't get me wrong -- I'm all for expansion (and Tysons always has a lot of customers when I stop by), but adding a new store in a market with four already when so many places have none at all? Odd.

I know tons of Mac-interested people in the Roanoke, VA area who can't justify going all the way to DC or Richmond to experience/buy Apple products, and nobody else in the area carries them. Those are the kinds of places Apple should go now, since the major markets are largely covered.

Now I only have to drive .5 miles instead of a mile. :-)

[wdlove]

What'd you think, wdlove? Should he nail his feet to the floor and wait for those slow moving stores to catch up to him? ;)

I will aquaess to your expertise Sayhey. What is your assessment of an Apple Store close to his area in Bend, Oregon. He seems to be happy where he is now, so think the drastic option won't be needed. ;)

[Sayhey]

I will aquaess to your expertise Sayhey. What is your assessment of an Apple Store close to his area in Bend, Oregon. He seems to be happy where he is now, so think the drastic option won't be needed. ;)

Bend, Oregon is a city of about 58,000 people and about 3 hours from the nearest Apple store (Tigard, OR) or maybe 2 and half hours from the nearest cities that could possibly get an Apple store (Salem and Eugene.) He's in for a very, very long wait if he really wants a store in Bend. Much better to drive to the Portland area stores.

Now, if his powers of attraction are as great as he claims, he could make a good living as a guest in those cities in desperate need of an Apple store. :D

[Sayhey]

Granted, the area around bev center and the grove is densely populated so they could very well be opening a store there. Just seems there are better places to put one.

Manhattan Beach is about 20-30minutes south of Santa Monica. And its at least 45 minutes from the Grove (normal traffic if you take the highways). Oh and Manhattan Beach is in South Bay. South Bay is Manhattan Beach, Hermosa Beach, Redondo Beach, Torrance...

I can't say if the Beverly Center is a smart choice as I don't know the area well enough. I'll have to accept your judgment as a local; I was only trying to break the news - good or bad about the coming of an Apple store there.

So, does the Manhattan Beach location sound like a good one to you? From what I understand it will be in the Manhattan Village mall (http://www.shopmanhattanvillage.com/). What do you think?

[letskeepitstr8]

[QUOTE=letskeepitstr8]


And how is this different from the Apple corporate stores?

If it is 8%, it cost the Apple stores have about the same.
Why is Apple going to sell them cheaper to the Apple stores? The manufacturing VP will get pissed because he wont hit his revenue projections. The Apple stores have to turn a profit just like the independents, if not they wont last long.

Check my previous post.
Apple stores have sold and continue to sell at prices below suggested retail if you know how to approach them.

[letskeepitstr8]

[QUOTE=Sayhey]Can someone please explain to me how these shrinking profit margins and supply difficulties are different for Apple resellers than for PC resellers?

Yes it is different. The PC market has 95% of the market. Apple only 5% or less. That makes it a very limited market with smaller return due to the volume. Apple products command a higher prices than PC. Nevertheless Apple Corporate keeps on narrowing the margin to its dealers and keeps for itself a larger share then the day before without regards to its effects on the dealers that supported Apple during its bad time.

[letskeepitstr8]

[QUOTE=Sayhey]Can someone please explain to me how these shrinking profit margins and supply difficulties are different for Apple resellers than for PC resellers?

Are the supply difficulties relegated to only small resellers or is it to all non-Apple owned stores? I sure don't see a problem with stock at CompUSA or Fry's. If it is a preferential supply to large distributors is there something illegal about that?

Folks, I don't want the "mom and pop" reseller to go out of business, but if it is between that and the continued problems of selling through channels that haven't a clue about how to sell - then bye bye mom & pop. ]

You seem to have missed the point. Why would they complain of receiving no products if you can't sell it? It should be obvious that those resellers are loosing their customer base to the store that have products. It tells me that they have a customer base that is not being served because of lack of products. Not giving products to them continue to erode their sales and shift the buying pattern. How often would you be willing to go to a store that does not have products? Apple is making sure that your buying pattern is not to support the stores that they want out. That channel knows how to sell otherwise why would they complain that they have no product? They see their customer base stolen away by starvation of products.

[Sayhey]

[QUOTE=Sayhey]Can someone please explain to me how these shrinking profit margins and supply difficulties are different for Apple resellers than for PC resellers?

Yes it is different. The PC market has 95% of the market. Apple only 5% or less. That makes it a very limited market with smaller return due to the volume. Apple products command a higher prices than PC. Nevertheless Apple Corporate keeps on narrowing the margin to its dealers and keeps for itself a larger share then the day before without regards to its effects on the dealers that supported Apple during its bad time.

My point, wrapped up in my original question, is that resellers of computers, Apple or PCs, are being squeezed. In large part that is because of the falling profit margins as prices for computers come down. I hate to think how many $300 dollar PCs a reseller must sell to make any money at all. In that kind of market do we assume Apple must compete and maintain high levels of profits for its reseller? Or do we assume that the resellers must find a way to sell more macs in order to maintain their profits? I get the impression from your comments that the resellers did Apple a big favor by making money selling Apples products when margins were high, and now they are owed the same high margins even when those margins are shrinking throughout the industry. I'd like to see a contract with Apple that guarantees that. Unfortunately, capitalism doesn't work that way.

[letskeepitstr8]

However, most of what I see is complaints about not have the retail space to themselves and not being able (or willing) to fight aggressively for more of the market. There's a whole lot of PC users out there waiting to be given a reason to buy Apple products. Stop complaining and go get 'em guys!

Everytime the dealers attempt to get these customers Apple entice these customers not to buy from the dealer by offering lower prices. Many sales are lost to Apple direct after the dealer got the ball rolling in the ares that you mentioned. The most expensive part of the sale is to find the customer. The dealers find these customers, sell them and then Apple make sure to get all the repeat orders by offering lower prices.

[letskeepitstr8]

[QUOTE=letskeepitstr8]

My point, wrapped up in my original question, is that resellers of computers, Apple or PCs, are being squeezed. In large part that is because of the falling profit margins as prices for computers come down. I hate to think how many $300 dollar PCs a reseller must sell to make any money at all. In that kind of market do we assume Apple must compete and maintain high levels of profits for its reseller? Or do we assume that the resellers must find a way to sell more macs in order to maintain their profits? I get the impression from your comments that the resellers did Apple a big favor by making money selling Apples products when margins were high, and now they are owed the same high margins even when those margins are shrinking throughout the industry. I'd like to see a contract with Apple that guarantees that. Unfortunately, capitalism doesn't work that way.
I agree with you but they are owed the courtesy of receiving products that they order forgetting the margins. They do not get products that are ordered within minutes of introduction. Let them eat cake you say. How if they don't have the ingreedient to make bread because Apple make sure they don't.

[Sayhey]

[QUOTE=Sayhey]Can someone please explain to me how these shrinking profit margins and supply difficulties are different for Apple resellers than for PC resellers?

Are the supply difficulties relegated to only small resellers or is it to all non-Apple owned stores? I sure don't see a problem with stock at CompUSA or Fry's. If it is a preferential supply to large distributors is there something illegal about that?

Folks, I don't want the "mom and pop" reseller to go out of business, but if it is between that and the continued problems of selling through channels that haven't a clue about how to sell - then bye bye mom & pop. ]

You seem to have missed the point. Why would they complain of receiving no products if you can't sell it? It should be obvious that those resellers are loosing their customer base to the store that have products. It tells me that they have a customer base that is not being served because of lack of products. Not giving products to them continue to erode their sales and shift the buying pattern. How often would you be willing to go to a store that does not have products? Apple is making sure that your buying pattern is not to support the stores that they want out. That channel knows how to sell otherwise why would they complain that they have no product? They see their customer base stolen away by starvation of products.

I'm sorry if I was clumsy making my original point. I should have underlined the word "how." Of course, small resellers can sell Apple products in the same way they always have. The problem is that old way of sitting in a small, unappealing, worn-down shop and waiting for customers to break down your door to buy computers doesn't work anymore. At least it won't work for keeping Apple alive. Part of breaking out of the death spiral of the 90s was coming up with new and innovative products like Apple did in its early days. An equally important part of that effort to resurrect the company is not accepting how it products were being sold. Resellers are an important part of that effort, but they have to change how they do business or they are going to go under. We can lament the effect on the people we know who are working at resellers, but those are the hard facts.

[Sayhey]

[QUOTE=Sayhey]
I agree with you but they are owed the courtesy of receiving products that they order forgetting the margins. They do not get products that are ordered within minutes of introduction. Let them eat cake you say. How if they don't have the ingreedient to make bread because Apple make sure they don't.

When I asked the question about CompUSA and Fry's concerning their supply of products, it was to make a point. It looks to me like Apple's supply policy is geared toward large volume sales stores, Apple owned or otherwise, not necessarily as the grand conspiracy to drive all small resellers customers into Apple stores. Apple has made the decision to make sure they don't have huge numbers of products sitting in inventory like they did in the 90s. That, combined with giving preference to the large volume dealers, puts a great strain on smaller resellers. I certainly would like to see every dealer have all the stock they want, but I also don't have to take the risk of producing huge numbers of products that then don't move.

I never said anything close to "let them eat cake." I'd love to see small resellers do well and have a great relationship with Apple, but my number one concern in all of this is that Apple Computer survives so all of us can enjoy their products.

[letskeepitstr8]

[QUOTE=letskeepitstr8]

I'm sorry if I was clumsy making my original point. I should have underlined the word "how." Of course, small resellers can sell Apple products in the same way they always have. The problem is that old way of sitting in a small, unappealing, worn-down shop and waiting for customers to break down your door to buy computers doesn't work anymore. At least it won't work for keeping Apple alive. Part of breaking out of the death spiral of the 90s was coming up with new and innovative products like Apple did in its early days. An equally important part of that effort to resurrect the company is not accepting how it products were being sold. Resellers are an important part of that effort, but they have to change how they do business or they are going to go under. We can lament the effect on the people we know who are working at resellers, but those are the hard facts.
Why not give them products if they have their customers? Also they are not just sitting and waiting. They have to go to training and they do. They have to advertise and they do. They have web sites but are not allowed by Apple to sell on their site. Many restrictions are put on them. They go get customers by cold canvassing and Apple get all repeat orders on price. They want to stock the product but Apple does not give them the product on purpose. You seem to think that they do not know what to do. I have talked to some very good dealers that are called Specialists. Those are the good dealers that Apple is starving. Then how and why did Apple kept them aboard all these years????? Please give these people the credit they deserve.

[Sayhey]

[QUOTE=Sayhey]
Why not give them products if they have their customers? Also they are not just sitting and waiting. They have to go to training and they do. They have to advertise and they do. They have web sites but are not allowed by Apple to sell on their site. Many restrictions are put on them. They go get customers by cold canvassing and Apple get all repeat orders on price. They want to stock the product but Apple does not give them the product on purpose. You seem to think that they do not know what to do. I have talked to some very good dealers that are called Specialists. Those are the good dealers that Apple is starving. Then how and why did Apple kept them aboard all these years????? Please give these people the credit they deserve.

Let's keep it straight, letskeepitstr8, I don't doubt there are some very, very good small resellers out there. I also, have seen too many resellers who think it is a privilege to come into their stores and have as a badge of honor have cultivated an atmosphere of disdain for anyone not already conversant in the lingo of the most ardent macheads. Do you dispute that the latter stores exist? If you want sympathy for the plight of small dealers, you have it. If you want sympathy for incompetent and arrogant small dealers, you don't. I just won't jump to salute when the idea that all of this is Steve Jobs' or Apple Computer's fault is run up the flagpole. It is far more complicated than that.

[letskeepitstr8]

[QUOTE=letskeepitstr8]

Let's keep it straight, letskeepitstr8, I don't doubt there are some very, very good small resellers out there. I also, have seen too many resellers who think it is a privilege to come into their stores and have as a badge of honor have cultivated an atmosphere of disdain for anyone not already conversant in the lingo of the most ardent macheads. Do you dispute that the latter stores exist? If you want sympathy for the plight of small dealers, you have it. If you want sympathy for incompetent and arrogant small dealers, you don't. I just won't jump to salute when the idea that all of this is Steve Jobs' or Apple Computer's fault is run up the flagpole. It is far more complicated than that.
You have that part. Now is Steve is no better that those arrogant dealers you refer to

[Sayhey]

[QUOTE=Sayhey]
You have that part. Now is Steve is no better that those arrogant dealers you refer to

Now that is truly topic for a whole other thread! :D

Jobs ego is no doubt larger than most of the macrumors community put together. He is also in a very different position, where the arrogance to take on competition like Microsoft, Dell, Sony, etc comes in handy at times. If your point is that Steve is not very concerned with the problems of small resellers, then we agree. I even agree that he should be more concerned.

[letskeepitstr8]

[QUOTE=letskeepitstr8]

Now that is truly topic for a whole other thread! :D

Jobs ego is no doubt larger than most of the macrumors community put together. He is also in a very different position, where the arrogance to take on competition like Microsoft, Dell, Sony, etc comes in handy at times. If your point is that Steve is not very concerned with the problems of small resellers, then we agree. I even agree that he should be more concerned.
Then we are in full agreement. the sad part is that the good dealers are all limped with the bad ones in these discussions and that is not right. We need to speak of the good ones and recognize them as they should be. The comments made by others make it sound like all small dealers are not good and all the Mom and Pop should go away. Very narrow minded.

[Chip NoVaMac]

[QUOTE=dnnx]
Apple stores have sold and continue to sell at prices below suggested retail if you know how to approach them.

Care to explain that? The only breaks I have heard are EDU pricing, or "unannounced" prices reductions. For at the Tysons Apple Store they seem to work off a price list.

[letskeepitstr8]

[QUOTE=letskeepitstr8]

Care to explain that? The only breaks I have heard are EDU pricing, or "unannounced" prices reductions. For at the Tysons Apple Store they seem to work off a price list.
Very simple. All you have to say is that you are a student, teacher or staff at any school and they give it to you. No proof of ID or otherwise. It is a joke. It happens all the time. And all we do is blame the resellers for not being able to do better. Apple is making sure that they don't survive and that the consumers don't patronize the dealers.

[Chip NoVaMac]

[QUOTE=Chip NoVaMac]
Very simple. All you have to say is that you are a student, teacher or staff at any school and they give it to you. No proof of ID or otherwise. It is a joke. It happens all the time. And all we do is blame the resellers for not being able to do better. Apple is making sure that they don't survive and that the consumers don't patronize the dealers.

Your Apple Store is different from the Tysons store. They require the student ID for the first purchase at least. Not for a follow-up purchase if you get a rep that remembers your first one.

Glad to hear about the reseller class action lawsuit. This abuse of discounts is one of the issues, and I for one hope that it ends, period.

[Sayhey]

Your Apple Store is different from the Tysons store. They require the student ID for the first purchase at least. Not for a follow-up purchase if you get a rep that remembers your first one.


It's the same in the SF stores. Also it is only on hardware; no student discounts on software. I go to campus to buy my software.

[letskeepitstr8]

It's the same in the SF stores. Also it is only on hardware; no student discounts on software. I go to campus to buy my software.
My point exactly. Are you a student?

[letskeepitstr8]

[QUOTE=letskeepitstr8]

Your Apple Store is different from the Tysons store. They require the student ID for the first purchase at least. Not for a follow-up purchase if you get a rep that remembers your first one.

Glad to hear about the reseller class action lawsuit. This abuse of discounts is one of the issues, and I for one hope that it ends, period.
What class action lawsuit are you refering to?

[Sayhey]

My point exactly. Are you a student?

I am a student, and my point is that they ask for student id in the SF stores. Nothing underhanded or sinister in the use of the discount that I can tell.

The lawsuit is by a group of resellers, led by Tom Santos of macadam (the store feature in this thread). You can read all about their point of view here (http://www.tellonapple.com/).

[letskeepitstr8]

I am a student, and my point is that they ask for student id in the SF stores. Nothing underhanded or sinister in the use of the discount that I can tell.

The lawsuit is by a group of resellers, led by Tom Santos of macadam (the store feature in this thread). You can read all about their point of view here (http://www.tellonapple.com/).
In our area they don't ask for ID's. They just automatically give it to anyone who says he is a student or teacher. By the way what is yourmajor and what schoold do you attend?
Also I checked the site that is not a class action . That is a specific dealer fighting back not a class action. Maybe they should have one.

[Sayhey]

In our area they don't ask for ID's. They just automatically give it to anyone who says he is a student or teacher. By the way what is yourmajor and what schoold do you attend?
Also I checked the site that is not a class action . That is a specific dealer fighting back not a class action. Maybe they should have one.

I'd prefer to keep my personal information out of this thread. You'll have to take my word that I'm a student. The site is put up by Santos, but it is about a class action suit brought by him and other resellers. The old Computerware stores are also involved along with others.

[wdlove]

I'd prefer to keep my personal information out of this thread. You'll have to take my word that I'm a student. The site is put up by Santos, but it is about a class action suit brought by him and other resellers. The old Computerware stores are also involved along with others.

I don't blame you Sayhey. I consider you to be the Mac Genius when it comes to this thread topic.

Our local Apple Store and University Store always asks for a student ID.

[Sayhey]

I don't blame you Sayhey. I consider you to be the Mac Genius when it comes to this thread topic.

Our local Apple Store and University Store always asks for a student ID.

Thank you, wdlove. That is very nice. You are, as always, a gentleman.

[letskeepitstr8]

I don't blame you Sayhey. I consider you to be the Mac Genius when it comes to this thread topic.

Our local Apple Store and University Store always asks for a student ID.
Well I see that today the class action was filed. That is different from the original suit you have refered to.
see the info:
<http://www.forbes.com/personaltech/2005/02/18/cz_el_0218apple.html?partner=yahoo&referrer=>

[Chip NoVaMac]

[QUOTE=Chip NoVaMac]
What class action lawsuit are you refering to?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1282974#post1282974

[Roose]

hello, i work for a apple authorized reseller in the south west (Devon). As an example of apple having no respect for their resellers . The other week we ordered 10 wireless apple keyboards. Next day apple reduced their price by £20 and we couldnt match it becasue of the price we bought them at. We lost £200 like that!! So im sure you all understand how hard it is to keep so much stock of apples products especially when they keep changing their products. Dont get me wrong i love apple without them i wouldnt be in business. But if we didnt do pc's as well as macs we would of closed down years ago. We are in out 10th year this year and if you can find a apple reseller around our area who have been open so long ill give u a chocolate bar lol!! It is a hard business to be in and i understand why these resellers are pointing their fingers in apples direction!! Cheers Guys!

[posim]

Thats not the whole story. I've known Tom for over 12 years, and he bleeds Mac colors. He is extremely knowlegeable and goes way overboard for all his customers. The real problem is THE WAY this happened. Tom has had a very close relationship with Apple for many years. He has consulted with them about Apples technology and retail direction and was lead to beleive that a new store would not be moving so close to him because of his long term loyality, at least in the short term. I completely understand Apples retail model and agree. That said they should have made some arangement to liquidate his store and hire him to run the S.F. store. They could not find a more knowlegeable or personable guy to continue to carry the Apple banner. I agree that he is the acception and most resellers could not carry his........Mac. Thx

[wdlove]

hello, i work for a apple authorized reseller in the south west (Devon). As an example of apple having no respect for their resellers . The other week we ordered 10 wireless apple keyboards. Next day apple reduced their price by £20 and we couldn't match it because of the price we bought them at. We lost £200 like that!! So im sure you all understand how hard it is to keep so much stock of apples products especially when they keep changing their products. Dont get me wrong i love apple without them i wouldn't be in business. But if we didn't do pc's as well as macs we would of closed down years ago. We are in out 10th year this year and if you can find a apple reseller around our area who have been open so long ill give u a chocolate bar lol!! It is a hard business to be in and i understand why these resellers are pointing their fingers in apples direction!! Cheers Guys!

I can certainly understand your situation. Apple should do more to assist their resellers. Loyalty should count for something. Congratulations on your 10th year in business. I admire anyone that has the ability that you have demonstrated. My hope is that your will continue to be a success.

Are you the Tom that posim is referring?

[Roose]

no i am not tom but certainl feel for the guy. Fortunately the nearest apple store is london which is quite a while away but clearly in the near future more and more stores are going to be opening which is worrying. but o well!! Awaiting the ipod shuffle to come in should be gd. we had 2 mac minis in yesterday and it took our apple engineer about 2 hours to get into it. lol. question for you guys. can you plug a usb hub into the airport express so you can have more than one printer off it??? weird question i no but i will not rest till i no lol cheers