When?

[mischief]

When will we, as a species learn to see?

When will we learn that compassion can more reliably bring justice than can bombs?

When will the downtrodden of the world be seen through the eyes of everyman and not through the fog of fear?

When will we realize that all people have the same goals in life: To live not in fear but in joy, safe with our families?

When will the simple wants of all people outweigh the animosity in a few powerful men?

When will those few powerful men see the folley in their manipulations?

When will there be a media without the influence of those few men?

When will the world's remaining peasants be given a chance to know they are being used as cannon fodder?

When?

Before my children are grown? Before I die? Before my children have grown old and died in the same mess of fear, xenophobia and Zealotry?

When will we be content as one people without force, facism or genocide?

When?

[MacBandit]

I agree 100%. We know not what we do. We do not future. We do not the people we kill. All we know is fear and we must kill what we fear. It's so idotic.

[Backtothemac]

Saddly, never.

[krossfyter]

As long as sin is in this world we wont learn and it wont be as utopia ish as we would like it. Destruction is inevitable unfortunatly.

[mischief]

As much as that is the obvious answer, I refuse to let it be the Only one. With the growth of he world's first true global forum we finally have a chance we've never had: Dialog and real understanding is as close as the village PC. Never give up hope, only strive to encourage change.

Courage B.;)

[krossfyter]

Oh there is hope alright. Jesus is the only way.

[Backtothemac]

mischief. I agree.

It starts with every person, one at a time. The problem is that there will always be people out there that will harm, murder, kill, etc. The reason is because evil will always be with us.

[mischief]

Originally posted by krossfyter
Oh there is hope alright. Jesus is the only way.

I understand your point of view but can I suggest that it's the Jesus in each of us that must work the transformation?

I have noticed that as a whole, society is quite literally weary of all this ******** and would really rather just be nice and enjoy the diversity of prespective... Much as your choice of language raises my own personal bias (too many bad things done in the name of Christ) you are correct, we need to each stay true to The Path while helping each other to do the same. No matter what you use as a format.

[mischief]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
mischief. I agree.

It starts with every person, one at a time. The problem is that there will always be people out there that will harm, murder, kill, etc. The reason is because evil will always be with us.

Rather than dispair that there will always be people too caught up in their own fears to play nice we must learn to do nothing more than ignore or laugh at them. Fearing them is to aid them and resigning them to being an inevitable consequence of humanity is to absolve ourselves of our own part in their creation.

Such people are most often a damaged product of their early bad environment, therefore globallized compassion is the only recourse.

There is no Evil, there is only Pain.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by mischief


I understand your point of view but can I suggest that it's the Jesus in each of us that must work the transformation?

I have noticed that as a whole, society is quite literally weary of all this ******** and would really rather just be nice and enjoy the diversity of prespective... Much as your choice of language raises my own personal bias (too many bad things done in the name of Christ) you are correct, we need to each stay true to The Path while helping each other to do the same. No matter what you use as a format.


I agree. Thanks for being tolerant.

rock it

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by mischief


Rather than dispair that there will always be people too caught up in their own fears to play nice we must learn to do nothing more than ignore or laugh at them. Fearing them is to aid them and resigning them to being an inevitable consequence of humanity is to absolve ourselves of our own part in their creation.

Such people are most often a damaged product of their early bad environment, therefore globallized compassion is the only recourse.

There is no Evil, there is only Pain.

I kindly disagree with most of that. But thats my view. I respect yours though and I will not mock it.


rock.

[alex_ant]

Is there anywhere on earth I can be right now where nobody is flogging this 9/11 ********? How much longer is this going to last? I was awake on that morning, it was miserable, and I will be able to remember it perfectly well, and mourn in my own way for a very long time without anyone else's help. Is there anyone else on the verge of retching at this pap? I want to go somewhere where the news is about what happened today and not a year ago, where it's not peppered by lit candles and me-too cutesy ribbons (because any network not displaying such things is of course grossly liberal and un-American), where the anchors aren't reading pre-prepped expansions on the philosophies of evil off their teleprompters and so on. Lots of people died this time last year and it was terrible, but things are happening in the world right now that desperately need our attention. Yet we're stuck in the past and oblivious to the present and future (except as the present and future involve our attempts to "get justice" and all that *****). Why can't we move on?

Maybe none of this is relevant to this particular thread, but I think if I had posted it in the 9/11 thread it would have gotten very ugly. (And it probably still will but... oh well, sorry)

[mischief]

That's EXACTLY why I posted it. I refuse to participate in a Propoganda Buildup to a War that will be fought against confused peasant cannon fodder Zealots. Therefore I advocate Compassion as loudly as I can and still be listened to.

[Mr. Anderson]

When?

Not any time soon - we're in for a bumpy ride for a while.

Disparity in living conditions, famine, overpopulation and ignorance (a huge problem) will continue and exert more pressures that will cause lashing out against 'others' all over the world.

The need for food and having to deal with overcrowding 10, 20, 30 years from now when so little space will be available for the 10+ Billion humans on the planet, will cause more and more migration, regional wars and hopefully not result in chemical/biological/nuclear weapons being brought to bear.

And there isn't an easy solution - we're all going to have to suffer a bit and learn to live differently than we do today. Hopefully, things will all work out and we'll be able to look back at the 2000s as a transition period.

D

[mischief]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/default.stm

http://www.cbc.ca/news/

Anybody know any other sites?

[vniow]

Wow, thre's a lot of protest against attacking Iraq according to the BBC. I had no idea.:confused:

[Mr. Anderson]

The way I see it, Saddam will end up doing something that will cause America to say to the rest of the world - 'See, we told you so!' and then go in and remove Saddam.

The only problem with that is more people have to die - innocent people. But without significant support from the rest of the world, it will only make things go sour for US world policy. We will look even worse than we do now.

Instead of bullies, we'll be peacekeepers and heros. Its tough, and probably making all sorts of people really mad that we can't do anything right now, but unless something else comes to light (obvious nukes for Saddam), we'll have to wait, otherwise it will cause us more problems in the future.

D

[eyelikeart]

we'll get these things...and more...

in our afterlives...

[jelloshotsrule]

i hear that eye.

in order to achieve these things, it requires a massive revolution. and clearly not a violent one. but a revolution of humanity and human nature. which in a way is impossible. ie, human nature is human nature. can't change. however, i feel that we can evolve, and thus change. now, that's my fairly idealistic look at it

on a more realistic level, unfortunately, i see little hope for such results in my lifetime if ever.

but alas, i am saved by the hope for eternal life. for all people. christians, muslims, jews, atheists, etc etc.

that actually cheers me up some. word


and yeah, it's one thing to on a large scale commemorate, it's another to make it everything that today means.....

[Durandal7]

I feel that it is hardwired into to us as a species to fight. At the current stage in our evolution we will not be able to stop tearing at each other's throats. Perhaps in a few thousand years we will learn to cope but odds are we will just kill each other on a grander scale.

[mischief]

We've already done the Grande Scale Killing bit. We have a new tool for peace and understanding..... you're using it right now. The Web has the potential to be a "Global Subconcious" and allow communication across the globe that can short-circuit agression by bypassing the beurocrats. Grassroots peace!:eek:

[G4scott]

Humans are evil by nature. The founders of this country had this in mind when creating the constitution. As long as there is government, there will be people who disagree with it, and hate it. Without government, there would be anarchy, because there will always be someone who wants to be the ruler.

I believe that mankind won't ever see true world peace unless something happens that makes every person on this planet realize their humanity, so that they see that there is no need, time, or place for hate on this world.

[mischief]

Originally posted by G4scott
Humans are evil by nature. The founders of this country had this in mind when creating the constitution. As long as there is government, there will be people who disagree with it, and hate it. Without government, there would be anarchy, because there will always be someone who wants to be the ruler.

I believe that mankind won't ever see true world peace unless something happens that makes every person on this planet realize their humanity, so that they see that there is no need, time, or place for hate on this world.

Anarchy: (Greek)from anarkhos, "without a ruler".

In a purely technical sense a Senate and no Emperor is Anarchy. The modern re-interpretation of the word came out of the political upheaval of the early 20th century when "Anarchists" engaged in terrorism in an attempt to create an uprising of the common man. The resulting backlash-of-opinion changed the common usage of the word.

BTW: People aren't inherently evil. That's a Catholic control measure.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by mischief



BTW: People aren't inherently evil. That's a Catholic control measure.


I kindly disagree. If you care to see another perspective read C.S. Lewis's book titled "Mere Christianity".. he lays it down in a logical sense without any of that "Christian mumbo jumbo" or any scripture at all. If you care. I mean yeah sure the Catholics did use that concept for their gain but the concept of evil is not exclusive to just one religion or doctrine. But I know its just my opinion etc. etc. and it doesnt work for you.... I just want to offer you another perspective if you care. If you dont thats okay I understand. :D

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by mischief
BTW: People aren't inherently evil. That's a Catholic control measure.

i also disagree. about the second part that is

not the first.

oh but i'm catholic, so i guess i have to disagree with the first part too... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Mr. Anderson]

people aren't evil, we evolved into what we are today by living in family groups. Our social evolution has far out grown our biological evolution. Where family groups were the comfortable level, we now have nations. The underlying problem is that if you're not one of us, you're against us. This is biological in many ways and can't just be turned off. And the difference can be any number of things - religion, race, political party, etc.

So until we can come to accept, as a whole human race, that our 'family' is everyone on the planet, we're going to have to growing pains and people will end up suffering.

D

[mischief]

I apologize for oversimplifying my response.

A more detailed comment would be: The influence of the Catholic church, in it's original push to power involved (among many other tactics) using the idea that Humans are inherently Evil. The Church recognized that in order to replace existing holistic religion they first had to make people psycholiogically dependant on the Church. One of the simplest ways to do this is to neccessitate within the Dogma that devotees must constantly seek absolution for EVERYTHING. Some sects took this further and claimed that absolution must even be sought for living at all.

C.S. Lewis was Agnostic until late in life when he became Christian (I forget if it was C of E or Catholicism). As most converts that spend a long time waffling he became rather evangelical. Many of the books he wrote about philosophy were inspired by his conversations with his friend J.R.R. Tolkien, who was a devout Catholic.

The concept of the "fundametally Evil" Human was 1 of the 3 major psychological camps at the time. The others of which (that later became dominant) were the "Tabula Rasa" or blank slate interpretation in which the environment effects development more than any "ROM", and the "Noble Savage" interpretation in which the "ROM" is assumed to be fundamentally positive.

The modern theory melds all 3: Humans (says the theory) have all the basic behaviours of any other mammal PLUS the ability to construct abstracts and displace their own personal sense of context. This combination makes for a person who is born with an instinctive need for positive re-enforcement of existing positive behaviours at particular ages. Without that positive re-enforcement, or if that re-enforcement is replaced by abuse the human becomes withdrawn or responds violently/fearfully to the related stmulus later.

Is that clearer?;) :D

[jelloshotsrule]

thanks. :)

i knew you aren't one to generalize as such.

just wanted to see where you were coming from

well put

[buffsldr]

mischief,
You asked several questions. Would you agree that people have different definitions of "justice" and "peace"? How would you answer your own questions if people have a fundamental difference in what "justice" is? I am not attacking you, I want to hear your reply.

[mischief]

Originally posted by buffsldr
mischief,
You asked several questions. Would you agree that people have different definitions of "justice" and "peace"? How would you answer your own questions if people have a fundamental difference in what "justice" is? I am not attacking you, I want to hear your reply.


There is only one answer and it's so obviious most people won't believe it:

Total communication in the truest sense between every individual on the planet is the only answer.

This will be possible AT MINIMUM by phone in the next 5 years. Of course it requires a desire for discourse between the common peoples of the world.....

[krossfyter]

ahh hell my bad.... i DONT believe humans are inherently evil. i apologize for that.