Political Discussion (formerly G5 Talk)

[chmorley]

Originally posted by ftaok
chmorley,

It's not just Republicans that have strong opinions about stuff they know very little about. Democrats fall into that description as well. There are bull-headed know-nothings in just about every group that you can think of. As a lifelong registered Independent, I must agree (although I think the relative probabilities are not at all equal). I was just being funny (and bashing Rush, which is both easy and funny).

Are you a Republican? I find they have a difficult time understanding humor, as well. :)

Chris

[Ovi]

11

[ftaok]

Originally posted by chmorley
As a lifelong registered Independent, I must agree (although I think the relative probabilities are not at all equal). I was just being funny (and bashing Rush, which is both easy and funny).

Are you a Republican? I find they have a difficult time understanding humor, as well. :)

Chris Chris,

I would consider myself a "enlightened Republican".;)

I'm all for getting government out of my private life. I feel that people should be able to take care of themselves (for the most part). But I'm also pro-choice.

Pretty much, straight down the middle, I guess. Plus, I'm very funny.:D

[chmorley]

Originally posted by Ovi
When the word Rush is added to a rummor site, I can not help but join in. I would hope that most Mac users are Republicans. Why, you say?

1. They work hard for a living and actually have money to spend?

2. They don't like big gov. like Microsoft or Intel.

3. They tend to be more educated and there fore buy products that work.

4. They are so dedicated to Apple or their party, you hardly ever hear of many switching.

5. They are very accepting of others, they have no problems knowing that Steve is a major liberal.

6. They dent to brag like Rush about their knowledge or computers.

(Personally I just bought my 7th mac and own three right now. An iMac, iBook, and my prized possesion a new Dual 1ghz.)
7. The die hard will always look for a bargain, which would make us Jewish as well.

I could come up with more, but I need to get to work. Long live Apple. Strange argument. Pretty insulated. A lot of assumtions.

1. What makes you think Democrats don't work hard or have money? Do you have data?

2. Don't most Republicans support big business like Microsoft and Intel?

3. What makes you think Democrats are less educated? Do you have data?

4. And Democrats switch parties? Don't get the point.

5. Republicans are accepting of difference. Right. That's funny.

6. I think that's just geekiness (which I find much more appealing than conservatism). That cuts across party lines. :)

7. Not even sure what this means, but "the Jewish vote" has always been identified as predominantly Democratic (true as recently as the last two Florida elections/debacles).

A lot of assumtions...

I figure Mac people are smart, open to new things, and disbelieve the status quo. If you want to assign that to a party, fine. I just hope that they are wielding some power.

I personally find political parties detrimental. Because I personally value open-mindedness, I have more trouble with those who know the truth, rather than seek it. Both parties do that in different ways, but one is famous for it.

Anyone know of any data on Mac purchases by state? I'd be curious to see if there is a correlation between voting tendencies and purchasing tendencies. If you find the data, I will do the statistical analysis. We could probably even publish it.

Chris
____
"Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it."
--Andre Gide

[chmorley]

Originally posted by ftaok
Chris,

I would consider myself a "enlightened Republican".;)

I'm all for getting government out of my private life. I feel that people should be able to take care of themselves (for the most part). But I'm also pro-choice.

Pretty much, straight down the middle, I guess. Plus, I'm very funny.:D Just out of curiousity, why Republican instead of Independent?

Chris

[ftaok]

Originally posted by chmorley
Just out of curiousity, why Republican instead of Independent?

Chris If pinned down to one group, I would say Republican. I'm not registered as a Republican, it's just that I find myself voting that way more often than not.

As for being Republican instead of Independent. I'm a pretty practical guy, and I'd like my vote to "count". Seeing as how it's a 2-party system, I don't see an Independent being able to win a major election.

And please don't be offended with the "throwing away votes" comment.

I guess, if the right Independent candidate comes along and I feel that he/she has a real shot at winning, then I'll vote accordingly. But now-a-days, it seems like I'm just voting to keep one guy or another out of office.

Aggh, still have 2 years til the next Presidential election. Don't have to get all worked up til then.;)

[chmorley]

Originally posted by ftaok
If pinned down to one group, I would say Republican. I'm not registered as a Republican, it's just that I find myself voting that way more often than not.

As for being Republican instead of Independent. I'm a pretty practical guy, and I'd like my vote to "count". Seeing as how it's a 2-party system, I don't see an Independent being able to win a major election.

And please don't be offended with the "throwing away votes" comment.

I guess, if the right Independent candidate comes along and I feel that he/she has a real shot at winning, then I'll vote accordingly. But now-a-days, it seems like I'm just voting to keep one guy or another out of office.

Aggh, still have 2 years til the next Presidential election. Don't have to get all worked up til then.;) I get where you're coming from. I don't think any vote is "thrown away." However, I am registered Independent because I have too many problems with both major parties, and not enough in common with the others to affiliate with one of them. I have never voted for an Independent candidate. As a matter of fact, my exact point is that people become too likely to vote for the candidate their party puts forward, even if s/he is a boob.

It perpelexes me why people don't simply vote for the best, most competent candidate whose views best represent their own. I believe most people don't. Instead, they identify a party that represents some of their core beliefs, and then (usually) vote that way forever.

I don't know why I'm perplexed by stupidity, though. We should expect it by now.

Anyway, my original point was that Rush is a moron (or was it that the guy who said dual processors don't do anything was a moron?). ;)

Maybe it was both. :p

Chris
____
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
--Galileo Galilei

[MacCoaster]

A bit off topic... is anyone here a libertarian?

Count me in, I'm a moderate-to-strong libertarian.

[void]

You guys should take this to another thread. This thread is meant to flame this kid and his unreliable rumors, not to discuss Donkeys and Elephants.

[MacCoaster]

Originally posted by vjv
You guys should take this to another thread. This thread is meant to flame this kid and his unreliable rumors, not to discuss Donkeys and Elephants.
Uhh... libertarian party is neither. ;)

[Sun Baked]

Speaking of the Donkey Party...

Did you know that Clinton had asked to change the Democratic emblem from a donkey to a condom?

It represents inflation, halts production, and gives you a false sense of security while you are being screwed.

[chmorley]

Originally posted by vjv
You guys should take this to another thread. This thread is meant to flame this kid and his unreliable rumors, not to discuss Donkeys and Elephants. Thanks for the advice. I don't know what I was thinking.

At least Libertarians seem to think for themselves. I am not one, but I appreciate anyone who chooses not to conform.

Chris

[ftaok]

Originally posted by chmorley
Thanks for the advice. I don't know what I was thinking.

At least Libertarians seem to think for themselves. I am not one, but I appreciate anyone who chooses not to conform.

Chris Does non-conformist include Raider fans, motor racing fans (not NASCAR) and Mac users?

[Ovi]

11

[arn]

Originally posted by Ovi

I was just adding a little humor to this otherwise rather boring subject. I have given up on the G5 long ago. It is a waste of time to debate the unknown.

But since you took my comments to be insulting, I thought I should spend a little time and educate you.
..........
In the mean time relax and spend more time on the net reading about the world instead of being insulted by strangers in forums like this.

Actually, he said "Pretty insulated"...

and let's try to keep the posts troll-free. Not saying yours is necessarily, but certainly doesn't have a friendly feel to it either.

arn

[chmorley]

Originally posted by Ovi
I was just adding a little humor to this otherwise rather boring subject. I have given up on the G5 long ago. It is a waste of time to debate the unknown.

But since you took my comments to be insulting, I thought I should spend a little time and educate you.

I don't have the stats you want but they are there...You could have ended there. The rest was your opinion. You make some interesting assumtions about our country and me. They tell me a lot about your beliefs.

Thanks for sharing.

Chris

[Moxiemike]

It's obvious that Ovi is either a) a troll b) a moron or c) a moronic troll

:D

[Ovi]

11

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Ovi
Please prove me wrong don't just say that I make interesting assumptions. Show me that most teachers, retired people, and folks who overall see themselfs as being poor are all something other than Democrats. Yes I know that teachers and retired folks vote in large numbers, but the masses that Democrats claim to represent don't. And of course most Jewish folks are Democrats, you missed the humor in my statement.

Show me that Republicans are not richer than Democrats. (by the way I am a poor Republican)

I only repeat what I have read in the regular press. I must live in a cave and my data is all wrong.

You're a poor brained Republican! Who has no respect for teachers and elders, basically lumping them into the realm of being "lazy".

teachers are poor because you lovely republicans like to keep stratospherically raising defense budgets for "pre-emptive strikes" against countries that might possibly maybe have a "weapon of mass destruction" (a pencil?? is that what Iraq has???).

As such, we tend to ignore the fact that our schools are underfunded, unless they're in a rich, white, upper-middle class neighborhood and our teachers in inner-city public schools are, by and large, underpaid.

Believe me, teachers aren't poor because they don't work hard.

Which is what you're making assumptions about. take off your crisply starched white collar mask and get in the trenches. Or are you some hack-a** suburbanite who's 'afraid" of the inner-city? And afraid of talking to some inner-city dwellers and workers?

is that cave you live in a middle class, republican, lacking soul, pre-fab house in the 'burbs by chance? Are your sources foxnews and cnn? Or do you actually look to other sources???

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by chmorley
Strange argument. Pretty insulated. A lot of assumtions.

1. What makes you think Democrats don't work hard or have money? Do you have data?

2. Don't most Republicans support big business like Microsoft and Intel?

3. What makes you think Democrats are less educated? Do you have data?

4. And Democrats switch parties? Don't get the point.

5. Republicans are accepting of difference. Right. That's funny.

6. I think that's just geekiness (which I find much more appealing than conservatism). That cuts across party lines. :)

7. Not even sure what this means, but "the Jewish vote" has always been identified as predominantly Democratic (true as recently as the last two Florida elections/debacles).

A lot of assumtions...

I figure Mac people are smart, open to new things, and disbelieve the status quo. If you want to assign that to a party, fine. I just hope that they are wielding some power.

I personally find political parties detrimental. Because I personally value open-mindedness, I have more trouble with those who know the truth, rather than seek it. Both parties do that in different ways, but one is famous for it.

Anyone know of any data on Mac purchases by state? I'd be curious to see if there is a correlation between voting tendencies and purchasing tendencies. If you find the data, I will do the statistical analysis. We could probably even publish it.


well said;)

[chmorley]

Originally posted by Ovi
Please prove me wrong don't just say that I make interesting assumptions. Show me that most teachers, retired people, and folks who overall see themselfs as being poor are all something other than Democrats. Yes I know that teachers and retired folks vote in large numbers, but the masses that Democrats claim to represent don't. And of course most Jewish folks are Democrats, you missed the humor in my statement.

Show me that Republicans are not richer than Democrats. (by the way I am a poor Republican)

I only repeat what I have read in the regular press. I must live in a cave and my data is all wrong. Let me give this a shot. You have to be willing to listen to scientific thought, and not rhetoric. If you're not, don't read any further.

First, there is no reason for me to dispute assumtions or prove they are wrong. The hope is that simply by pointing out that they are based in belief, and not fact, that you might be willing to question what you think you know. This is only untrue with "rigid" belief systems. I don't discuss politics with people who have rigid belief systems, as I get frustrated that they don't listen to facts.

Second, you misunderstand some things about the normal curve, and what happens when it is skewed. Income distributions are terribly skewed, meaning we ought to interpret them with caution. Even if the majority of "poor" people are Democrats, it is a mistake to say that Democrats are poor. While the mean may be lower than that of Republicans, the median may be higher. This happens frequently with skewed distributions. Hell, the Income distribution curve for Democrats may be bi-modal. If you would like, I can send you a lecture I do on this subject (though it may have to wait until the end of the semester). Since I don't know of good data on this, I will simply say we don't know the nature of these distributions. And by the way, show yourself what you want to know. Don't make an assumtion and then ask others to disprove you. That might attract viewers on FOX, but is terrible thinking.

Third, you misunderstand what "facts" are. As Arnold Lazarus (probably the most respected psychologist alive) says, "There are anecdotes, and there is evidence. There is no such thing as anecdotal evidence." Most of the time, newspapers provide anecdotes. They may be based in fact, but typically contain the writer's version of the truth, which is a problem if you are looking for "evidence" or facts.

Fourth, I believe our culture has been encouraged by the likes of Rush, O'Reilly, Jim Rome, and others (I am sure there are liberals who belong on this list) that we ought to decide what is "right" and then wait for the facts to come in. When the facts come in, if they don't fit with our version of "the truth", we will find some reason why they are wrong. I argue that we cause all sorts of unnecessary problems with this approach. Why not accept that we don't know the answer to most questions? Ask questions instead. Gather data. Even flawed data is better than unsupported belief (though not by much).

Fifth (and last), recognize that your views are skewed by what you do for a living. So are mine. I am VP of my company and teach at a local University. Most (but not all) of the people I meet (in both of these worlds) are very bright, make very good money, and are very liberal. This also is not "evidence". It is simply experience. It ought to inform our world views, but should not be mistaken for fact.

I feel no need to prove you wrong. You have beliefs based in dogma and emotion. I can't disprove those, and would never try. I would encourage you to think more critically, though. The way you think affects the world I live in.

We are all in this boat together.

Chris
____
"The essence of knowledge is, having it, to apply it; not having it, to confess your ignorance."
--Confucius

[chmorley]

By the way, Ovi, you also figured that Mac users were Republican. Take a look at the only data I have seen so far.

Thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=11370)

Granted, this is far from scientific, and only a measure of the political affiliations of Macrumors members, but the preliminary data don't support your belief.

Chris
____
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper."
--Robert Frost

[Ovi]

11

[jefhatfield]

during the last election, a trend was seen with rural church going people with high school educations tending towards bush by a few percentage points and urban professionals with college degrees tending towards gore by a few percentage points

it was always very close where in a farming community, bush would be up by no more than five points

or in a urban city, gore would be up by no more than five points with the professional set

so these rural vs urban trends were just for this past election and may not hold true next time around in 2004

[Ovi]

11

[chmorley]

Originally posted by Ovi
All you socialists need to live three years or more in Europe (don't just read about it or vacation there) so you can appreciate America. I find more positive things to say about our society such as schools, medicine, and social well being then negative things. More assumptions.

I love the USA.

I am not a socialist.

I have lived in Europe.

I am not anti-Republican.

You make a lot of assumptions.

Chris
____
"Doubt grows with knowledge."
--Goethe

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by chmorley
More assumptions.

I am not a socialist.

I have lived in Europe.

I am not anti-Republican.

You are not smart.

Chris

chmorley,

while i agreed with your last counterpoint against ovi, this time i think he was bringing some valid points

it is interesting that he mentions that he is poor and works for the elderly, both things many would not associate with being republican...at least not the yacht club set the press likes to bash...and there are many of those rich old guard republicans around

i see a new trend of working class republicans who might have felt that the democrats did not deliver as the working man's party and switched to the gop

unfortunately, i believe the republicans have less interest in helping the common working man, women in the workplace, or minorities...but colin powell made a compelling argument that the gop was becoming the party of the women and minorities and the party of opportunity for all

perhaps there will be a major switch in the future with the rich educated democrats vs the poor working class republicans...the rural south used to be the solid democratic south before ronald reagan and now the south is solidly republican, at least for now

politics is such a fun and strange subject to follow since no one can really accurately predict who will win with 100% percent accuracy from election to election

one of my favorite political sagas is of harry s. truman - talk about a man who got a "late" start and beat the "odds" and was in the "right place at the right time"...so to speak;)

[chmorley]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
...unfortunately, i believe the republicans have less interest in helping the common working man, women in the workplace, or minorities...but colin powell made a compelling argument that the gop was becoming the party of the women and minorities and the party of opportunity for all

perhaps there will be a major switch in the future with the rich educated democrats vs the poor working class republicans...the rural south used to be the solid democratic south before ronald reagan and now the south is solidly republican, at least for nowI agree that things are in flux. I actually prefer that over people striving to maintain old party lines. However, I think the Republicans have a long way to go before they can legitimately claim to be the party of minorities. My fear is that they are getting left behind altogether. And as much as I'd like to see people abandon parties and think as individuals, this is not the nature of people. I don't believe the nature of people will change any time soon.

Just as marketing is getting more and more targeted at those consumers who are most likely to buy things, I think election advisors are targeting more and more only those most likely to vote. While this is good capitalistic thinking, in politics it leaves the underserved underserved. So now we have elected officials who are good at getting elected, but who are struggling to explain why the crime rate is so high and why our gang problems continue to worsen. Someone has to represent the disenfranchised, even if they don't vote. When their lives get worse, it affects all of us. We can choose to get angry with them, or we can actually fix the problem.

My post was specifically at the "All you socialists..." remark. It is the kind of thing that stifles intelligent discussion around politics.

By the way, I found my initial reaction to be too strong and counter-productive. I'd appreciate it if you would edit it to reflect my own edit. My mistake. Thanks.

Chris
____
"The unfortunate need people who will be kind to them; the prosperous need people to be kind to."
--Aristotle

[jefhatfield]

i wish the underrepresented would just simply go out and vote so they could be heard

why not have a voting week where all citizens have to vote and if they don't they have to pay a fifty dollar fine or spend a day of community service for their community?

that sounds harsh and intrusive, as does the seatbelt law in california, but maybe due to human nature, it is needed until we can evolve into a more rational group of beings and have the sense to go out and vote

when i get jury duty notices, i want more than anything to serve and in the group of 360, 24 are chosen as the jury and the jury alternates and in 21 years of being called and eligible, i have never been chosen...but 24 is way less than ten percent of 360 so the odds make it against my favor

my dad served once in his 75 years as a citizen for a one day duty for a cop vs a speeder and so did my 32 year old employee for a day determining if a cop correctly caught a speeder

people say that is a waste of time, but our roads would be more dangerous is speeders got away with it and never got ticketed

the last time i was called to jury duty, but didn't get chosen, it was...you guessed it... a speeding violation of someone going forty-something in a twenty five mile per hour zone...i watched part of the proceedings and got excused as things got underway and only the 12 jurors and the 12 alternates got to see the whole thing...oh well

they sent me a notice saying i will not be called for any reason to serve in the next 24 months and at that rate and with those odds 24/360, i may never see our judicial system at work

i may not be the prime candidate for a juror since i am pro choice, pro gun control, anti death penalty, and i read too many books about political and law enforcement corruption

oh, and i studied labor law in college which has a lot of psychology and liberal beliefs in its curriculum...and many people who have hr degrees go on to become accident attorneys...ambulance chasers...he he

hey, got to go, i think i just heard an ambulance pass by my street:p

[Ovi]

11

[arn]

Originally posted by Ovi

However, I see Democrats and Independents as Socialists. I know yet one more assumption.


I don't align myself with any political party... but I think you have to be very aware that this is all your opinion, and frame it as such.

Any broad statement is never 100% accurate... and my opinion of people who makes broad statements as fact is that they live in their own world. This applies to poltical positions (any position), platform preferences, etc...


arn

[chmorley]

Originally posted by Ovi
...I see Democrats and Independents as Socialists. I know yet one more assumption.

...

Rush and his gang is right. Anyone who finds that offensive is anti-Republican. I know another assumption.

Our schools are bad because we spen too much money on defense. What a bunch of bull. We have spend more and more money on education every year for the last 20 years and we are in worse shape now than 20 years ago. This is a fact not an assumption.

Democrats and Independents want free education, medical care, everything under the sun. They are very angry when there is a tax cut. The gov. needs the money to take care of all their problems....Well, there are assumptions, and then there is just getting it wrong. I could call you a fascist, but that wouldn't make it so. I could call grey black, and find that I am alone in my own little world.

I take the time to listen to Rush, because I like to hear diverse opinions. However, he has a problem in that he often (maybe usually) gets his facts wrong. If you are interested in exposing yourself to varied opinions, pick up Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0440508649/qid=1032287837/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-9945081-9073707?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), by Al Franken. Granted, Al is an Ivy-League educated liberal, but he largely sticks to facts on the important points. You will find Rush's "crack staff" often gets stuff completely wrong. I bet $10 you won't challenge yourself to read it.

Did you know that it is possible for an Independent to be more conservative than you? Look at Pat Buchanan.

The rest of your post is silly stereotyping, so I won't bother responding. As a matter of fact, you are clearly not rational, so I will not respond to you any more.

Have a nice day.

Chris

p.s., I wasn't debating which party had more money. I was simply pointing out that you had made an assumption not based on fact. I don't know which party is richer, and am comfortable with that, as I don't think it's important.
____
"A conservative is a man who believes that nothing should be done for the first time."
--Alfred E. Wiggam

[chmorley]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
i wish the underrepresented would just simply go out and vote so they could be heard

why not have a voting week where all citizens have to vote and if they don't they have to pay a fifty dollar fine or spend a day of community service for their community?I also wish the underrepresented would vote, but they don't. The vast majority of the clinical work I do is with this group, and I believe I have some insight into why they don't vote. They have a rigid belief that they can't have an effect on the world at large. They also believe that the government is unfair and would never offer them a fair shake. If we fined them for not voting, they wouldn't vote and have their irrational belief reinforced.

I have some ideas about things that might help the disenfranchised feel less so, but they would take time, and I can't imagine many politicians who would be in favor of them (since they are more likely to favor spending time and money on figuring out how to get the vote of those who already vote). Consequently, I am politically active and try to represent my clientele.

Ultimately, I think our government will work best if a) everyone votes, b) everyone who can work does work, and c) we don't intentionally hurt each other. Unfortunately, I am not sure a or c is possible. Forcing people to do something that is within their power to choose is dodgy. We can shape people's behavior (be rewarding them for working (with $) and not rewarding them for not working) so that they work. The other things have so many other factors involved, it's not really do-able in a free society.

Chris

[MacCoaster]

I am the ONLY libertarian here?! :) Surely there must be more. Actually I'm not exactly libertarian, though the libertarian party matches the best ouf of all available parties, though I could create one, but... I choose not.

I personally think Libertarians think for themselves *AND* the other people.

[Ovi]

11

[arn]

Originally posted by Ovi
Chris,

It saddens me to hear one more university teacher whose emotions in the end dictate their inability to communicate. But I am not surprised for I have seen this before. Every democrat or independent that I know becomes too angry and frustrated to carry an intelligent debate.


Ovi,

Wake up call here...

The only thing common amongst all your debates with the democrats/independants is that you are a participant.

It's like those people who keep having relationship after relationship that end badly. It's not the people they date... it's them.

something to think about...

arn

[chmorley]

Originally posted by arn
Ovi,

Wake up call here...

The only thing common amongst all your debates with the democrats/independants is that you are a participant.

It's like those people who keep having relationship after relationship that end badly. It's not the people they date... it's them.

something to think about...

arn Thanks for a rational voice, arn. It's maddening trying to carry on a conversation with someone who can't (or isn't willing to) recognize the difference between dogma and fact.

I carry on conversations with conservatives and liberals and we manage to discuss our differing viewpoints and understand each other. Dittoheads, however, are a unique breed. They are impervious to reason, and immune to logic. They then interpret the frustration they generate as weakness in others. I wish I didn't care what they thought, but they impact the safety of my children, the incarceration and rehabilitation of my clients, and the education of my students. We all do.

I have a friend (another psychologist) who says, "Argue and debate if the discrepancy is based on facts, but never when it is based on emotions. You can get somewhere with the former, but never the latter."

Too true.

Chris
____
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
--Friedrich Nietzsche

[Ovi]

11

[Ovi]

11

[Ovi]

111

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Ovi


Arn,

Please enlighten me and help me wake up. How about the possibility that those I debate can't handle the heat and give up in frustration.

You make a good point in regards to relationships, I see it all the time.

Just remember I never called anyone a name in any of my posts. In turn I have been described as a moron or irrational.

I love to debate politics so I don't get offended or frustrated that easily. In fact I can't recall the last time I have had so much fun.

Ovi
For someone who loves to debate politics, well, you sure exhibit a very limited, one-sided (and within that a definite lack of knowledge) view point.

The best debaters can see the other side. You seem to just want to troll around and being spiteful, as opposed to insightful.

Anyone remember the article someone posted with a link to a term paper by a sociology student on internet trolls? Ovi fits the description to a T.

[arn]

Originally posted by Ovi

Please enlighten me and help me wake up. How about the possibility that those I debate can't handle the heat and give up in frustration.


Of course that's a possibility. But I wanted to point out that the reactions you've had in the past may also be a reflection of your "debate style" (as a loose term) rather than a generalization that all liberals/independants being particuarly emotional/anger-able.

In general, politics, is a frustrating thing to debate... because at the essence it's a difference of opinion... but lots of "facts' are thrown around... and statistics can be so biased that they're almost useless. Go pick up a particularly liberal magazine and you'll probably see quotes and stats that you'll roll your eyes at... :)

arn

[chmorley]

Originally posted by Ovi
Think about it, how can my humble opinion impact the safety of your children? It is that thinking scares me more.There is a rational question in there! I will reply to this because it is the thing that too many people don't understand, and it is my life's work.

What we say and do and support and vote for and against impacts the safety of our children because we vote. Even those who don't vote impact the whole. You are "scared" because you don't understand. You are part of a community.

When a community votes to increase spending on building new jails while failing to increase teachers' salaries (as happened last time around in northern Colorado), our communities have the potential to get more dangerous. Work in corrections and you know this. I could bore you with research, facts, and statistics, but they probably wouldn't matter. Suffice it to say that there is broad agreemend in corrections that incarceration doesn't rehabilitate, and that incarceration without rehabilitation makes offenders more dangerous. How we vote on these issues impacts the safety of my children, the incarceration of my clients, and the education of my students. Your "humble" opinion matters just as much as everyone else's.

Lastly, what you see as "debate" is far from it. Debate relies on facts. In a proper debate, you can't simply state your opinion and then asked to be proven wrong. That's pretty silly. You haven't come close to stating a fact today.

"Democrats and Independents want free education, medical care, everything under the sun. They are very angry when there is a tax cut. The gov. needs the money to take care of all their problems."

This is called "setting up a straw man argument". No one said it but you. No one even agreed with it. Then you argued the other side. That's irrational.

Being called "irrational" is far from being called a name. It is pointing out that your arguments are not based in fact. Most (if not all) humans are irrational from time to time. However, when people live their lives that way, it creates problems. Now, had I called you a "fascist", knowing that's not the case, that's name-calling.

It's not surprising that you find people walk away from discussions with you. I don't have the same experience, despite having very strong views. Perhaps it's your presentation.

Chris

p.s., In case I haven't made it clear, I am attempting to walk away from this discussion because I don't believe you have any interest in hearing anyone else's views. I discuss politics all the time with people who have views that differ from mine, but refuse to do so if there is no give and take.

[Ovi]

11

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by ftaok
As for being Republican instead of Independent. I'm a pretty practical guy, and I'd like my vote to "count". Seeing as how it's a 2-party system, I don't see an Independent being able to win a major election.
OK, listen up, Democrats and Republicans and everybody else. A vote is a vote. Your vote counts the same no matter who you vote for.

If what you want is for your vote to count, then you'd be best off moving to a small country with a population of about a thousand. Because in a country like the USA with 280,000,000 people, your vote is more than insignificant - it is the next closest thing to being worthless. Which is not to say you shouldn't vote, or that that's bad. It's just to say that your vote carries equal weight (almost none) no matter which party or candidate you vote for.

Voting for Candidate X because Candidate Y "has no chance of winning" is subscribing to a herd mentality. Candidates have run for office and lost thanks to this, even when these candidates are who the voters deep-down wanted to win the election. The reason an independent will not become President anytime soon is because too many people vote strategically - trying to counter their enemies instead of supporting their allies. This is also the reason the current and successive presidents are and will be dullards whose only source of merit is their ability to appeal to the stupidity of the masses. Kind of an interesting psychological phenomenon, although one that sets us all back and locks most of the real vision out of elected office.

Alex

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by Ovi
I don't have the stats you want but they are there. Most businessmen are Republicans. Other than most Lawyers and a few doctors which are Democrats, those who make serious money are Republicans. These people don't sit and watch the money roll in but rather work their butts off. Democrats do the same but their numbers are much smaller, since they are made up more of people like teachers, welfare folks, and retired people. Who spend more time complaning about everything that is wrong with this country rather than doing something about it. Most don't even vote or know who their elected officials are.
Wow. And on that note, I would just like to add that all negroes are lazy and stupid, and that's why they'll never claw their way out of poverty. I don't have the stats to back this up but they're there, and everybody knows this. :)

[chmorley]

Originally posted by alex_ant

OK, listen up, Democrats and Republicans and everybody else. A vote is a vote. Your vote counts the same no matter who you vote for.

If what you want is for your vote to count, then you'd be best off moving to a small country with a population of about a thousand. Because in a country like the USA with 280,000,000 people, your vote is more than insignificant - it is the next closest thing to being worthless. Which is not to say you shouldn't vote, or that that's bad. It's just to say that your vote carries equal weight (almost none) no matter which party or candidate you vote for.

Voting for Candidate X because Candidate Y "has no chance of winning" is subscribing to a herd mentality. Candidates have run for office and lost thanks to this, even when these candidates are who the voters deep-down wanted to win the election. The reason an independent will not become President anytime soon is because too many people vote strategically - trying to counter their enemies instead of supporting their allies. This is also the reason the current and successive presidents are and will be dullards whose only source of merit is their ability to appeal to the stupidity of the masses. Kind of an interesting psychological phenomenon, although one that sets us all back and locks most of the real vision out of elected office.

Alex Absolutely. It's this kind of thinking that keeps people stuck in believing that they only have two choices. Imagine if we all started to believe that we had more choices than this. I wasn't happy with any of the choices available in the last presidential election.

This is what I like about Mac users--good critical thinking.

Chris
____
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
--Soren Kierkegaard

[chmorley]

Originally posted by alex_ant
Wow. And on that note, I would just like to add that all negroes are lazy and stupid, and that's why they'll never claw their way out of poverty. I don't have the stats to back this up but they're there, and everybody knows this. :) And what's with people saying the Earth revolves around the sun? Any idiot with two eyes knows the flat Earth is the center of the universe. Heck, the Bible even says so.

Don't go confusing me with the facts. I have my mind made up.

Chris

[Ovi]

11

[chmorley]

Originally posted by Ovi
...

I am giving you a chance to debate. There i nothing I said that should make you walk away, unless you assume I am beyond common sense

Ovi No, Ovi. You have asked some reasonable questions. You have confused some issues, though. And no, I did not state opinion as fact. The issue of job-switching has little to do with quality of those doing the jobs, so I am not sure why you mentioned OT/PT. Also, "increased productivity" is not the issue, attracting higher quality employees is (BTW, these "productivity" studies are usually most applicable to factory jobs or jobs that need people to produce a great deal of work in a certian amount of time; financial incentives are actually quite good at improving quality of work, though). When companies want the best in a certain field, they know that they can attract them by paying them more. Increased pay is not associated with positive morale, but it is correlated with job retention, another goal.

There is actually very good evidence to support that paying teachers more can be part of increasing quality of education. Rochester, NY, increased funding for teachers by approximately 20%. They made this known nationally. They also then removed tenure (a bad practice in many ways), made performance requirements for students (i.e., if your students don't meet certain minimum requirements, you're fired), and required teachers to have regular communications with parents. It has worked beautifully. While progress was slower than initially projected (prompting many to urge to renege on the program), they have had a steady increase in student performance. However, only increasing teacher pay is not a good idea. Other changes also need to be made.

The connection between education and crime is very clear. This is what I do for a living (about 50+ hours/wk, separate from the teaching gig), so I am well-acquainted with the facts here. There is an inverse relationship between education and criminal behavior. There is even sufficient reason to believe that this relationship is causal, and not simply a spurious correlation. When we do a better job of teaching people, they are less likely to commit crime.

More importantly, we have a problem with our attitude towards incarceration in this country. We already have a greater percentage of our population incarcerated than we ever have before--and, in fact, a greater percentage than any other country in the world today. You are close on the recidivism rate. It is actually about 70-75% (depending on the study) of convicted felons will re-offend without rehabilitation. With effective supervision and treatment, this re-offense rate falls to approximately 35%. That is a reduction of 50% (for you non-math majors out there).

I am in favor of incarceration, but not without rehabilitation. My problem has been that, both in Colorado and nationally, conservatives have increased funding for incarceration and cut funding for rehabilitation. I have spoken to some of these CO politicians. They have been made aware of the facts, and choose not to believe them. I believe this is not because they are "bad", but don't understand the nature of research and statistics enough to know what is "fact" and what is not--that and the fact that their constituency expects them to be "tough on crime". Unfortunately, they are putting dogma and party politics ahead of what is in the best interest of the community. Democrats do the same thing, just on other issues. In this issue (and many others--the Dems are wrong plenty, too), however, this makes my family (and yours) less safe.

We have laws that govern what is "acceptable treatment" for a number of problems. Unfortunately, most of them are also based on dogma. Some treatment providers with clout decided what was "good treatment". They got a laws passed creating standards for good treatment. No one checked to see if it "worked", i.e., reduced recidivism. Actually, some of these treatments have been demonstrated to be ineffective or likely to make people worse. Unfortunately, Republicans are behind these laws because they look "tough on crime". Democrats are behind them because (they say) they value rehabilitation. In the end, we have a bunch of programs that don't work all that well. They don't cost taxpayers money, but they make our communities less safe.

Actually, my favorite candidate in the last election was from something like the "Scientific Fact Party". The candidate wanted all policies to be based on facts. He was actually quite brilliant, but completely unelectable.

Chris
____
"Where there is no vision, people perish."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson

[chmorley]

Sorry, one other thing I wasn't particularly clear about above--the right type of rehabilitation reduces recidivism by up to 50%. The wrong kind either has no effect or makes people worse. There are more of the latter than the former.

Incarceration has not been demonstrated to reduce recidivism. In fact, the opposite is true, as less-skilled offenders learn from more-skilled ones (and develop a messed-up view of what it means to be "strong"). I am not oppsed to incarceration, but we have to know the cost of it, and how to do it correctly.

Chris
____
"It is no use saying, 'We are doing our best.' You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary."
--Sir Winston Churchill

[Ovi]

11

[FattyMembrane]

looks like i joined the thread a little late, but i'm glad to see that MacCoaster is a fellow libertarian. there are two types of people in the world, libertarians and potential libertarians. when you dem's and rep's get tired of arguing about two faces to the same coin, check out the website in my sig, you will not be disapointed.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Ovi
…
In the OT/PT field the average person switches jobs every 16 months, despite being paid close to $80,000. This is a fact. Please explain to me how giving teachers more money will improve education. (You don't have to bore me with statistics I trust you) I agree that they are underpaid especially in the elementary and high schools. The enviornment affects the ability to hang to teachers much more than pay. In my tuxedo business I deal with High School teachers all the time. What I have noticed is that not one in four years could ever be found after 3:30 on campus or in their office. They have no interest in staying after school. Why?
…

Something one of your "liberal" professors might have mentioned, and you seem to have ignored, is that you need to cite sources when claiming a fact. Your claim of $80k and switching jobs for people in OT/PT seems very suspect to me.

My father works in this field as a speech therapist. He makes nowhere near this amount of money, and the only job switching he's done is chasing down new jobs when the economy in one state or another goes in the can. His collegues are in similar situations.

You see, the entire field of patient care is in a bad position these days. There is a tremendous shortage of people in the skilled nursing profession. This, in turn, decreases admittance in care facilities and hospitals, reducing the number of patients for therapists to treat, which means less work and jobs for people in OT/PT.

And in our current economic downturn, that Rush and his ilk ignore, or worse, pretend doesn't exist, this places many people in precarious positions.

As for the education thing...

Saying educators are underpaid is like saying the sky is blue...you're not conceding anything.

"The enviornment affects the ability to hang to teachers much more than pay."

What the heck does that mean???

I never knew the High School teacher customer base was so lucrative in the tuxedo business. ;)

Almost every teacher I have known, and I know many (I work on a university campus, and am a graduate student in the college of education), works many hours unpaid, overtime and weekends, and yes, after school. Why? They don't get paid well to do it. They aren't running their own business.

They do it because they love to do it.

[chmorley]

Originally posted by Ovi
A couple of points. And I only use my own exprience as evidence for this...Again, there are anecdotes, and there is evidence. There is no such thing as anecdotal evidence. I am sure there are plenty of 90 year-olds who smoked their entire lives. This doesn't prove smoking is harmless. In addition, you really haven't disputed anything I've said. Attracting and retaining good teachers is more likely to occur when they are paid better.

The study you mention is a well know fact. Rush and his gang talk about the same issues and agree with it but you may not know. In fact here is a little quote from directly from the GOP...Yeah, this actually doesn't address what I mentioned. The legislation (not a "study") I referred to was passed in 1992 by local government, not federal. I don't know why you included that article. It's good, though, that you know the GOP wants to pay teachers more money.In the area of prison and jail, it is so obvious that the more educated one is the less likely one is to go to prison. I don't have any data on this unless you know. I believe that in Europe overall crime is lower than in the US, however I think that the US public overall have higher degrees of education. If this is true then education may not be the biggest factor for decreasing crime.I am glad it is obvious to you that education and offense rates are inversely correlated. I mentioned this in response to your question in the previous post. Actually, Americans have fallen behind in education when compared with other countries in many ways. Also, since the socialist countries in Europe susidize education, they actually tend to be more educated than Americans. I would never argue that education is the only factor in likelihood of offending. My point was actually that most voters missed the significance of the juxtaposition of the two ballot initiatives (education vs. incarceration).
Dogma is not that bad. It is a matter of opinion if it is the soul factor behind poor results of rehab for jailed criminals. I know your data appears to be convey the opposite, but it is still filled with opinions. It works pretty well in Saudi Arabia. I know that is radical but the Bible is as well. The issue of effective treatment is only one aspect of the overall debate. How does one decrease crime in the future generation has more to do with social issues. I have no interest debating that aspect even though in the name of protecting the accused , the victim tends to get screwed by liberal ideas.And this is where we part ways. If you choose to hold onto dogma, it is pointless to engage in debate with you. Rigid, unchanging beliefs that are impervious to facts that dispute them are not the sort of things that can be debated. I would never try to convince someone who chooses to interpret the bible literally that this is wrong. It would be pointless.

Your assertion (an opinion stated as fact) that decreasing crime rates will have "more to do with social issues" is interesting. I assume you are talking about...what? Education? Religion? How would you address that? I'm not sure how my facts are laced with opinions. I don't know how one would do that. Interpretations of facts are often laced with opinion, but the facts themselves are simply facts.

Also, you seem to take jabs at liberals, and I am not sure why. Do you think I am one just because I believe Rush is a dolt? I am not. I just abhor thinking not based in or swayed by fact (read: dogma). Are you trying to get an emotional reaction from me, or are you always peppering your communications with the shortcomings of liberals? Either way, it is a distraction--poor form for intellectual debate.

Chris
____
"I learned that it is the weak who are cruel, and that gentleness is to be expected only from the strong."
--Leo Rosten

[chmorley]

Originally posted by FattyMembrane
looks like i joined the thread a little late, but i'm glad to see that MacCoaster is a fellow libertarian. there are two types of people in the world, libertarians and potential libertarians. when you dem's and rep's get tired of arguing about two faces to the same coin, check out the website in my sig, you will not be disapointed. I like the Libertarian party as much as I like any. Overall, though, I worry that any and all parties eventually fall prey to the same old party politics they all do.

Checked out the website. I liked it. Thanks for the link.

Chris

[Ovi]

11

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Ovi
Rower_CPU

Gald to see new debaters.

No one seems to believe me. I have worked for almost 10 years in the same hospital an I have seen too many new OT/ST/PT every year. I don't have access to employment records to prove it to you, but trade magazines have done studies which show PTs in general stay on the job 16 months. I have also worked per diem in nursing homes and the shortage you mention deals with aides and nurses in general. There are factors behind those and they are not Republican based like you hope. The job market has fluctuated but it is getting much better. ST are really in demand in the school systems.

I market to High Schools. I deal with 10 schools with an average of 3 teachers per school. One teacher deals with the school paper, one is the activities director, and the other is the ASB advisor. I only repeat what I have exprienced. They never complain to me of being overworked.

This thread has to be more exciting then speculating on the next tower. My advise to those who are waiting is to get an older 1 ghz dual if you can find one. I have had mine for two weeks and it kicks ass.

I took the opportunity to step in when I saw the opportunity. :)

I think the turnover you are seeing has more to do with traveling OT/PTs rather than job opportunities. I know that many of the therapists my father works/worked with fit this mold. He has worked in two different states and in venues ranging from the schools to managed care to hospitals. Nowhere has there been anyone making $80k a year.

I never said I hoped to blame the Republicans for the nursing shortage in America...far from it. I was, however, pointing to the Republicans for not acknowledging the recession, and not doing anything to help. And no, the "Tax Cut for America" does not count as doing anything.

[Ovi]

11

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Ovi
I should correct something. I know of no ST making $80k but I know plenty PT/OT who do. They have been in the job market for over 7 years and experience does count. The study I read could have added traveling therapists in the formula I don't remember.

I still know very few OT/PT that make that kind of money, could be a geographic thing.

My father has been working in the field since 1990 or so. We're still waiting for the service industry to take off...

[Ovi]

1

[Ovi]

1

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Ovi
Rower,

Check this site http://www.therapyjobs.com/speech.mv

There are more like it. The last job fair I attended was full of school districts looking for Speech Therapist.

I work perdiem in a nursing home for extra money. They used registry ST for almost a year because they could not find a ST.

If you dad lives in CA he should have no problem finding work.

He's in CA, and his work situation is part-time at best.

The company running the elder care facility where he works has not addressed nursing shortages, and is not admitting new patients leaving him with little to do. His hours change daily, to fit the productivity guidelines of the company. He literally has to call in every morning to see how long, if at all, he will work that day. He has since taken a second job through a Home Health company travelling anywhere from 50 to 150 miles to clients' homes.

Granted, he works in a rural setting, but there are only 2 STs covering the entire county. And they have nothing to do.

[Ovi]

1

[FattyMembrane]

Originally posted by chmorley
Overall, though, I worry that any and all parties eventually fall prey to the same old party politics they all do.

if you're up for it, i would highly recomend David Friedman's (son of Milton Friedman) book "The Machinery of Freedom". it illustrates how anarchy is not chaos and that anarcho-capitalism, or anarcho-libertarianism is perhaps the only way to keep peace and order in the nation, while abolishing all government.

[chmorley]

Originally posted by Ovi
Incase anyone is still reading here is a little data on small businesses and employment in the US which some of you disputed.

Please note that it only covers business employment and not gov. work, or educational institutions.

Never the less it proves what I have said in regards to most people work for small businesses.

I will find data which supports my earlier statment that most business owners are Republican. This is a little harder to find.

http://www.census.gov/epcd/www/smallbus.html No one said you were wrong, just that you were making "fact" statements without support. Glad to see you are looking for facts to support your opinions. Very dogmatic, but at least some basis in reality.

Also, without all employment numbers, it actually can't "prove" your point (not that I understand why that point is important to you).

Why does it matter what party small-business owners belong to? Who disputed your opinion on that?

Chris

[Ovi]

1

[chmorley]

Originally posted by Ovi
Chris,

I am so busy I hardly have time to respond. Please refer back to previous posts when somen disputed my assertion that over 75% of emplyees work in the small business community. This fact alone is not that important, but in the context of the broader assertion that Rush is full of lies and he never backs up his ideas and opinions.

Republicans care about small business owners and what they do to our economy. I am only disputing the overall fallacy that they are the big busines party. This is for those of you who are not as informed as you appear to be.

Ovi The way that you would show that Republicans are not the big business party is to demonstrate that another party has passed more pro-big business legislation. Simply demonstrating who its constituents are does not show what you want it to.

I don't know who said "Rush never backs up his ideas and opinions." I must have missed that one. I have stated that he often makes up facts, and I have data to demonstrate this. The whole "always/never" thing is poor form for debate.

The insults are interesting. I am not sure who they are intended for, as they don't fit the people posting on this thread. You seem angry that people don't understand the points you are trying to make. I am not sure why you would get so emotional about it. It would probably be more helpful (to you) to ask questions about how to clarify your point. I do, however, understand why people would choose to walk away from discussions with you. You are not very good at debate. You confuse your points and get emotional.

So good luck to you.

Take Care,
Chris

p.s., I checked all the posts in this thread. No one questioned your 75% stat.

[Ovi]

1

[Ovi]

1

[sturm375]

A third Libertarian is on the forums.

I take ever opertunity, there arn't many, to vote for and support this party. I believe it is the last, best hope for decent representation in D.C. as well as local and state.

I only have a few minor problems with the Lib. party.

I don't think all drugs should be legalized.

I don't think that just citizenship entitles you to own an anti-tank rifle, just in case.

And to the discussion at hand, the budget for the Department of Corrections should be 10% incarsiration, 90% Rehibilitation, or something like that. Teachers, not educational administrators, should be paid more, to draw better tallent.


These are just opinions, not facts, and not truths.

[sickboy_osX]

I think the war on Drugs should come to an end, it would save the country a bunch of money.

I am very upset at the Reubllicans because their party (on Microsofts Lobbying) asked to introduce legislation that allows for the Following
1. Foreign Programmers to be Arrested (i.e. the Hacker who showed Adobe's Securty Flaws in their E Book Reader at Defcon X)

2. Open Source Programing and Use Of open source Operating systems would be illegal (Mac OS X is Open Source)

Why should I be forced by a President who said "there otta be limits to freedom" to be forced to use Products by a Company who i hate, and vow to fight against?

The Republican Party has done nothing for me
except Recession, and Poverty. I lost my job in 2001 because of the HP Compaq Merger and I have not found one since. Now, your going to yell at me about "It isnt the republican's fault" Nope, it isnt, but how come the economy is always better when Democrats are in charge??

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Ovi
Chris,

I am so busy I hardly have time to respond. Please refer back to previous posts when somen disputed my assertion that over 75% of emplyees work in the small business community. This fact alone is not that important, but in the context of the broader assertion that Rush is full of lies and he never backs up his ideas and opinions.

Republicans care about small business owners and what they do to our economy. I am only disputing the overall fallacy that they are the big busines party. This is for those of you who are not as informed as you appear to be.

Ovi

when i was in mba school, the republicans were referred to as "pro business" and that meant small, medium, and large...and the vast, vast majority of americans work in small businesses

big corporate business sends money to both major parties and microsoft is really famous for that...heck, they're strategists and very saavy that way

being a democrat, i was usually at odds with most of the mba types as much as my conservative law school friends found themselves at odds with the mostly liberal law students and lawyers

and yes, liberal mbas and conservative lawyers exist, they live in the forest and only come out when the dew point hits 99.99%:p

[zorglub]

[QUOTE]I believe that in Europe overall crime is lower than in the US, however I think that the US public overall have higher degrees of education. QUOTE]

Poor little boy... quite complexed...uh ?:rolleyes:

arrogant, ignorant...ready to shoot the world...

just the kind of little fascist who makes some europeans so happy
to live here... without your free guns.

WE have a so long history of wars. We know about destructions, bombs and terror.

We were in Vietnam before you... We lost... You laughed a train and...what with your Rep president... He let your friends alone...face to face with reds.

We know about islamics very more than petrol.
So... we are a little more prudent with this peoples.

In 60's, we retrieve our soldats in Algeria egorged with ***** in the mouth...

In 1972 terrorism in Munich Olympics Games...

In 80's and 90's bombs and terrorism in France... they attempt to crash a plane on Paris... We shoot them before...

Go to Irak, then Saoudia... and good luck with your sanctuary concept of USA...

Poor education in Europe...read some history books: political science start with that. Errors and succes, you must learn about colonialism, govern systems during the ages, and so on...

courage, be brave, it's time to stop the keyboard addictment and read a lot.

z

[Ovi]

1