More Mac OS X Builds, 10.3.9, Tiger.

[MacRumors]

Appleinsider reports (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=984) that Apple has seeded another build of Mac OX 10.3.9 build 7W94 which is expected to be released "imminently".

Meanwhile, Apple's work on Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger) appears to be continuing with the most recent internal build at 8A432. Build 8A428 was reported to be declared Gold Master (10.4.0).

Despite no official annoucement from Apple on April 1, ThinkSecret (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0504tiger.html) maintains that Tiger will be released in April, but with a mid-month announcement and "shipping by the close of the fourth week at the latest".

[huds]

That's fine - iron out the glitches and then unleash the beast.

[crap freakboy]

heres hoping updated imacs with more Tiger friendly Vram with follow closely.

[840quadra]

hmm..

I hope this will help with an issue I am having on my G3, but only time will tell!!

[ismar]

Despite no official annoucement from Apple on April 1, ThinkSecret (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0504tiger.html) maintains that Tiger will be released in April, but with a mid-month announcement and "shipping by the close of the fourth week at the latest".


This was to be expected. It'll probably be announced at NAB and in stores about two weeks later. As far as i know Apple always announces new versions of Mac OS X about two weeks before they actually become available :)

[varmit]

Its ok, it was probably a couple of bugs that they wanted to make sure were right. Thats fine with me.

[SpaceMagic]

Odd how they're releasing 10.3.9. Perhaps they just want to make us sweat :p Or they know people wont move to Tiger straight away.

[tamtam]

I would rather we wait for a bug free product than wait for the fix to a rushed product.

[PubGuy]

Apple always continues development of new builds, even after they are declared GM. Any new changes will be rolled into a 10.4.1 release via software update. This is not surprising at all.

[GilGrissom]

Hmmm....seems strange after the almost certainty of the previous build going GM. Maybe it was wrong, always a possibility!!

Apple Insider are reporting that this latest Tiger build is for Mac OS X Tiger Server, and not the client version which they insist has gone GM...hmmm...now its getting confusing!!

April was supposed to bring some clarity to all these Tiger rumors and thoughts, turns out its making them worse!!! lol!! I guess the only time we will know for sure in April will be NAB....ah well...was hoping it would be before then (very hopeful I know!! hehe!)...but wishful thinking!!

If it is the client Tiger I guess it is still good news...fewer bugs n all!! Really hope it is April still though for a release...it seemed certain...but things seem to be slipping, I dunno...cant moan if its not ready! Just my impatience!!

[GilGrissom]

Apple always continues development of new builds, even after they are declared GM. Any new changes will be rolled into a 10.4.1 release via software update. This is not surprising at all.


Ahh!!...That could be it!!! Sorted!!

[iPodMechanic]

It's coming and there's nothing going to stop it!

[Ringu]

Question: If I buy a new imac after Tiger has been released, can I used the Tiger CD and install it on my Powerbook? (ie saving me buying a separate copy)

[iGary]

Anyone else tired of looking at iPods?

Release something!

[Little Endian]

I would rather have Apple take all the time they need given they can ship before the end of Summer. Remember Tiger has got to last us 2 years plus as we probably won't see a major Update of OSX until late 2007.

[Platform]

Anyone else tired of looking at iPods?

Release something!

Yes the iPod effect is too big :mad:

They seem to be concentrating on them a lot more than HW and SW, and they should not even though it might give them some easy money...they should continue to be the leader in HW and SW instead :rolleyes:

And release a new rev of PowerMac apple ;) :p

[klaus]

Question: If I buy a new imac after Tiger has been released, can I used the Tiger CD and install it on my Powerbook? (ie saving me buying a separate copy)

It's possible, but not legal.

[rtdgoldfish]

I would like Tiger to be released by the end of April. The computer store on my college campus pre-orders it and only charges $29 for students. Classes end on April 29th and I will be home by May 1st.

[AidenShaw]

:) Question: If I buy a new imac after Tiger has been released, can I used the Tiger CD and install it on my Powerbook? (ie saving me buying a separate copy)

Not legally.... But so far, Apple hasn't blocked improper installations with schemes like activation.

[mkjellman]

well 10.4.1 will be very necessary I still have 3 open confirmed bugs with apple....there are so many interface issues and glitches

i just found one where the hide command actually hides another application and after that happens you can't open a certain application back from the dock...very very annoying

word has a lot of issues and i don't know how many of those lay in the hands of microsoft, but still a huge application, lots of issues

here's to hoping for 10.4.1

[AmigoMac]

Bring the cat!
Bring the cat!!
Bring the cat!!!
!!!!!1101!!! :eek:

:D

Keep the cat and let us suffer! :cool:

WWDC anyone else? ;)

J/K Bring the ***** cat!

[klaus]

well 10.4.1 will be very necessary I still have 3 open confirmed bugs with apple....there are so many interface issues and glitches

i just found one where the hide command actually hides another application and after that happens you can't open a certain application back from the dock...very very annoying

word has a lot of issues and i don't know how many of those lay in the hands of microsoft, but still a huge application, lots of issues

here's to hoping for 10.4.1

Are you running the GM build of Tiger? If so, how did you get it, since you can't be a member of the apple seed, because of the NDA.

[Ringu]

:)

Not legally.... But so far, Apple hasn't blocked improper installations with schemes like activation.

Thanks, I wasn't sure. As I read something on here that said you could install Tiger on 2 computers without a problem.

[rosalindavenue]

This gives me a big rubbery one! ;)

Nice post-- you must be an Ain't It Cool News poster!

Turning to the thread topic, I still wonder if the gold master build is the one announced last week, or if Apple decided to either (a) use a later build for gold master, or (b) use the one from last week and almost simultaneously release 10.4.1 via software update.

[iFaulder]

Question: If I buy a new imac after Tiger has been released, can I used the Tiger CD and install it on my Powerbook? (ie saving me buying a separate copy)

I used my friends PowerMac G5 OS DVDs in my iMac G3 after my hard drive failed and it booted up and installed with out a problem.

[MacsRgr8]

Anyone else tired of looking at iPods?


Yep.

[mac-er]

If 8A432 is truly 10.4.1 as AppleInsider is reporting, then 10.4.0 is fairly close (why would they be working on 10.4.1 now and then wait 2 more months to release?)

The supposed "delay" could be two things:

1. They found some flaws in the GM and wanted to have 10.4.1 ready with the release (so they don't want a release date announced and not have 10.4.1 ready in time)

2. They aren't going to have a big lead time on the release date (perhaps a week or less between the announcement and the actual release)

[sirjimithy1]

Anyone else tired of looking at iPods?

I was totally just thinking that! At least change your hero graphic to something else. Change it up!

[GilGrissom]

Anyone else tired of looking at iPods?

Release something!


ABSOLUTELY!!!

A nice Tiger "X" would go down nicely!!

...whats for desert?!

[Prez1082]

Since steve is not scheduled to speak at NAB (at least according to NAB's website) and apple only has a standard booth how does all of this happen? Everyone is saying it's going to be released at NAB, but how?

[GilGrissom]

well 10.4.1 will be very necessary I still have 3 open confirmed bugs with apple....there are so many interface issues and glitches

i just found one where the hide command actually hides another application and after that happens you can't open a certain application back from the dock...very very annoying

word has a lot of issues and i don't know how many of those lay in the hands of microsoft, but still a huge application, lots of issues

here's to hoping for 10.4.1


Correct me if Im wrong but even if you still find bugs and whatnot on the builds Apple releases and they keep appearing, not fixed and left open by Apple, that doesn't always mean that its not done. Apple may already have the fix and have done bits around it, but have not put it into the build they release to people, as they may only want certain things testing...i dunno...i heard that somewhere!!! :confused: :confused:

[GilGrissom]

Since steve is not scheduled to speak at NAB (at least according to NAB's website) and apple only has a standard booth how does all of this happen? Everyone is saying it's going to be released at NAB, but how?

Interesting....my hope of immenant release is almost restored!!!

Nice catch!

[morkintosh]

As far as i know Apple always announces new versions of Mac OS X about two weeks before they actually become available :)



with the notable exception of Panther

[applemacmad]

with the notable exception of Panther

What happened with Panther?

[EANx]

I was wondering where 10.3.9 was.

Hopefully Tiger will follow. :o

[pennKid]

Thanks, I wasn't sure. As I read something on here that said you could install Tiger on 2 computers without a problem.

I'm pretty sure you CANNOT install the OS w/ the wrong CD. I say this because I have an imac with 10.2 and my girlfriend got 10.3 with her powerbook. I tried to use her CD to put 10.3 on my imac, but it wouldn't work.

On the CD it will say something like "iMac Mac OS X install"

[ziwi]

Hmm, this may put the 'nail' in the 'Tiger in April' Rumor. Oh, well - Still waiting...waiting...waiting...

[kerryb]

It's possible, but not legal.

I believe it is legal to install most software on two computers taking in consideration those of us that have a desktop and laptop for travel. Don't take my word though check the user agreement. I think we are allowed to share software with ourselves!

[klaus]

I believe it is legal to install most software on two computers taking in consideration those of us that have a desktop and laptop for travel. Don't take my word though check the user agreement. I think we are allowed to share software with ourselves!


I think you buy a single license, because the way you put it, the family packs would be useless. The family pack lets you install it on 5 machines.

It's not a user license you buy, it's a license per seat you buy.

[XNine]

I'm pretty sure you CANNOT install the OS w/ the wrong CD. I say this because I have an imac with 10.2 and my girlfriend got 10.3 with her powerbook. I tried to use her CD to put 10.3 on my imac, but it wouldn't work.

On the CD it will say something like "iMac Mac OS X install"

You are correct. If you buy a specific computer from Apple (a powerbook, ibook, powermac, emac, etc) the OS that comes with it is specific to the hardware purchased. However, if you buy the OS Retail boxed version, you can install it on any computer you wish. I had a friend who's Panther discs were stolen, and her powerbook, thrown on the ground during the ransacking. The hard drive went kaput and I offered to help. I used the Panther Retail discs to boot up the machine (the same discs I use on my PowerMac) and it all went well.

So, is it legal? No. Is it something you'll go to jail for? Not very likely.

[NicoMan]

It's possible, but not legal.

I'm not even sure it's possible: if you get the CPU drop-in for Tiger then yes it's possible. But if you get Tiger preinstalled and on the machine's software restore CDs, it won't be possible to install it on a different type of computer (it checks).

My $0.02.

[cybertron3]

I had a problem with both my powerbook CDs AND my powerbook optical drive so I put it in FW Target Disk Mode (holding T @ startup) and installed my G5 system disk to the external HD... worked like a charm... and my Windows friends said it would never work ;)

I'm pretty sure you CANNOT install the OS w/ the wrong CD. I say this because I have an imac with 10.2 and my girlfriend got 10.3 with her powerbook. I tried to use her CD to put 10.3 on my imac, but it wouldn't work.

On the CD it will say something like "iMac Mac OS X install"

[4God]

Since steve is not scheduled to speak at NAB (at least according to NAB's website) and apple only has a standard booth how does all of this happen? Everyone is saying it's going to be released at NAB, but how?


Not to rain on anyone's parade, however It seems as though Tiger will be announced at WWDC. My guess is that new versions of pro mulitmedia software such as FCP, Motion, DVD Studio Pro, and Shake (that will probably rely on Tiger) will be introduced at NAB - but not available until WWDC.
Just a thought. :rolleyes:

[jouster]

I believe it is legal to install most software on two computers taking in consideration those of us that have a desktop and laptop for travel.
You are incorrect.
I think we are allowed to share software with ourselves!
'Fraid not. Check the EULA.

[digitalbiker]

You are incorrect.

'Fraid not. Check the EULA.

Not exactly correct. If you install Tiger on your home desktop computer and use it, then remove Tiger and install it on your powerbook and use it, you are technically not violating the EULA because you are installing and using it on only one seat at a time. As long as there is no dual installation and there is no dual use of the software you are legal.

[jouster]

Not exactly correct. If you install Tiger on your home desktop computer and use it, then remove Tiger and install it on your powerbook and use it, you are technically not violating the EULA because you are installing and using it on only one seat at a time. As long as there is no dual installation and there is no dual use of the software you are legal.

Well, sure. But that was not what was being suggested:

"I believe it is legal to install most software on two computers taking in consideration those of us that have a desktop and laptop for travel."

[JzzTrump22]

I'm glad they are double checking everything. It would suck to buy a brand new kickass OS and then find out it's filled with little bugs.

[gopher]

I used my friends PowerMac G5 OS DVDs in my iMac G3 after my hard drive failed and it booted up and installed with out a problem.

What you did was illegal. Read the license agreement. The G5's OS DVD is really only designed for the G5. And even if it did work on your iMac G3 once, later on you may get a kernel panic with an CPU () error after an update.

[Ringu]

Well what I was thinking to do is use the PB on the road and the imac at home and sync the two. (so does that count as 'one seat'?).

Otherwise, my other choice would have been a Cinema Display for the PB .

[TMA]

What you did was illegal. Read the license agreement. The G5's OS DVD is really only designed for the G5. And even if it did work on your iMac G3 once, later on you may get a kernel panic with an CPU () error after an update.

I believe the installer checks your machine ID and compares it to a database of permitted machines you can install onto using that specific disc. The actual OS files on the DVD will be the same as the full retail version. So if it does permit you to install on another kind of machine (some discs do, some don't) then no, you wouldn't get CPU related KP's.

But yes, it is illegal.

[varmit]

Odd how they're releasing 10.3.9. Perhaps they just want to make us sweat :p Or they know people wont move to Tiger straight away.Its for compatability. If you release 10.4 but it can't operate with 10.3, then whats the point. They are not ending support yet for 10.3 so there will even be some security updates beyond this last core update.

[joeboy_45101]

Tiger in May! Anybody?, Anybody?

[4God]

Tiger in May! Anybody?, Anybody?

June.

[anjaki]

What you did was illegal. Read the license agreement. The G5's OS DVD is really only designed for the G5. And even if it did work on your iMac G3 once, later on you may get a kernel panic with an CPU () error after an update.

It certainly was illegal, the disc performs a check to see what machine you are installing the OS onto, if the machine isn't the same as the bundled software says it should be, it won't install, that is because the "real" installers are buried behind the checker on the bundled software disc as hidden files, now if......

[joeboy_45101]

I don't really care when it gets released! Honestly, I am doing fine with Panther (right now). And I don't believe that rushing development will produce anything worth having and using. If it takes them another six months to finally ship it then I'm fine with that. The whole reason I switched from Windows to Mac OS X was the fact that it is more secure and more stable. I don't want some over-zealous corporate's ruining that for me.

[chaingarden]

I'm a student developer--my membership runs out in late July. So I'm going to get the OS free in the mail, right? I'm just wondering when I should expect it--I'm antsy and hate waiting an extra couple weeks for my next monthly Apple mailing, but maybe it's good since then hopefully 10.4.1 will already be released. They don't do a special mailing when it's released do they?

[shawnce]

I'm a student developer--my membership runs out in late July. So I'm going to get the OS free in the mail, right? I'm just wondering when I should expect it--I'm antsy and hate waiting an extra couple weeks for my next monthly Apple mailing, but maybe it's good since then hopefully 10.4.1 will already be released.

Usually you will get a set of discs in the developer mailing following the general release of the product, however sometimes it may miss the next mailing depending on release date and presumably demands on manufacturing.

They don't do a special mailing when it's released do they? They have done this before.

[iBlue]

Originally Posted by FunkSpaceMonkey
This gives me a big rubbery one!


Nice post-- you must be an Ain't It Cool News poster!

Or perhaps quoting "Fight Club" i.e., "strangers with this kind of honesty make me grow a big rubbery one." or so that's how I remember it. ;)


On topic, I am in no rush for this Tiger release; I'm happy with 10.3.8 - but then again, I don't know exactly what it is that I am missing... yet.

[Laslo Panaflex]

Since steve is not scheduled to speak at NAB (at least according to NAB's website) and apple only has a standard booth how does all of this happen? Everyone is saying it's going to be released at NAB, but how?

Apple has a special event on Sunday April 17th "The prodution value of HD", you can sign up to get an invite if you are going to NAB or live in Las Vegas area here. (http://www.apple.com/go/nab/register/) This is where they usually announce their new NAB products, then show them on the expo floor. Sadly I am not going to NAB this year :(

Apple will announce the Production Suite 2 (FCP 5, Motion 2, DVDSP 4,etc) and it's rumored that it will require tiger. It is possible that they will annouce the new suite, but not have it ship untill summer, the possible latest date for the Tiger release, but I don't think so, I think Tiger will be released in late April early May, and the Production Suite 2 will be released around the same time as well.

I also think that if new HD powerbooks and 3gz G5 were to be announced, there would be no better place than NAB, people that are in the market for dual or quad 3ghz g5s and HD pbooks are those that work in the Broadcast industry, and are starting or work with HD.

Oh, and BTW Apple's booth at NAB is by no means standard, it is actually larger than their booths as macworld, (at least last year it was) and is the it was only ousted in size by Sony.

It's going to be pretty exciting, I can't wait for next Sunday to see what new is Production Apps apple releases.

[aprilfools]

I realize that OS enhancements are a constant dynamic, but I would still be willing to wait until WWDC if I thought we would have a flawless version of Tiger. I was not a 10.4 beta tester but hopefully Apple will fix even more stuff before they consider this last build the GM. Especially, if they wait until WWDC to announce/release Tiger. If that is what Apple is planning to do, than they should spend the next couple of months making more improvements to Tiger and at that point Apple can declare it the GM. It does not take that long to mfg and distribute a box of software wether it has bugs in it or not.

[MacSA]

OK People, now we're getting desperate....

I think its time to forget about Tiger in April. All these rumours have so far turned out to be false...the April 1st announcement of the release date whch in my opinion makes the rest of the rumour - the late April release also false. Now we have a new build of Tiger when it was supposed to have gone GM. The rumour sites are generatiing alot of false hope and expectation from Apple, no wonder they are so p****d off with them.

[k28]

How about if i buy Tiger family pack, i will able to share with 5 computer right? has to be in the same house? or i can share with 4 of my friends?

i come across Panther Family pack in apple store page and it says "only for the same household".Is it illegel to share with friends? Is it will work fine? Is apple able to check? :confused:

Panther Family Pack : http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/71801/wo/747dtCta8HRh2aRZEAZhEsBTtdW/1.0.11.1.0.6.25.7.11.0.3

[rog]

They almost make it sound like 10.4.1 might be ready and released before 10.4.0!

[daveL]

This gives me a big rubbery one! ;)
Rubbery? Who are you, Gumbi?

[Zaty]

OK People, now we're getting desperate....

I think its time to forget about Tiger in April. All these rumours have so far turned out to be false...the April 1st announcement of the release date whch in my opinion makes the rest of the rumour - the late April release also false. Now we have a new build of Tiger when it was supposed to have gone GM. The rumour sites are generatiing alot of false hope and expectation from Apple, no wonder they are so p****d off with them.

This latest build is said to be part of 10.4.1. It makes perfect sense that Apple continues working on Tiger. The sooner they can release 10.4.1 the better. I think we'll have Tiger in our hands by early May at the latest. Don't get me wrong, I didn't believe we would see Tiger before end of May until last week when it became pretty much obvious that Apple had already finished Tiger client. Why Tiger has not been announced yet is still unclear. My guess is they want to release server and client version at the same time. Apparently Tiger Server has not gone GM yet. So Apple probably will announce Tiger as soon as Tiger Server is ready.

[splatt2004]

Well I've just come off the phone to Apple - I've just bought a Mac Mini, of course I asked re:Tiger and what OS the mini would come with, that I didn't want to pay again later to upgrade. To quote exactly what the lady said on the phone:

'Of course I can;t tell you when Tiger will be released but what I will say is now is a VERY GOOD time to buy a mini and that there is NO NEED to worry about paying to upgrade later'

I guess that means Tiger is with us very soon.

[jelloshotsrule]

How about if i buy Tiger family pack, i will able to share with 5 computer right? has to be in the same house? or i can share with 4 of my friends?

i come across Panther Family pack in apple store page and it says "only for the same household".Is it illegel to share with friends? Is it will work fine? Is apple able to check? :confused:

Panther Family Pack : http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/71801/wo/747dtCta8HRh2aRZEAZhEsBTtdW/1.0.11.1.0.6.25.7.11.0.3

it's illegal. if it says there "only for the same household", then that's what the rules are.

[Zaty]

Well I've just come off the phone to Apple - I've just bought a Mac Mini, of course I asked re:Tiger and what OS the mini would come with, that I didn't want to pay again later to upgrade. To quote exactly what the lady said on the phone:

'Of course I can;t tell you when Tiger will be released but what I will say is now is a VERY GOOD time to buy a mini and that there is NO NEED to worry about paying to upgrade later'

I guess that means Tiger is with us very soon.

That sounds good, assuming the lady was honest and didn't say so just for the sake of selling a mini.

[Ringu]

Well I've just come off the phone to Apple - I've just bought a Mac Mini, of course I asked re:Tiger and what OS the mini would come with, that I didn't want to pay again later to upgrade. To quote exactly what the lady said on the phone:

'Of course I can;t tell you when Tiger will be released but what I will say is now is a VERY GOOD time to buy a mini and that there is NO NEED to worry about paying to upgrade later'

I guess that means Tiger is with us very soon.


I think a WooHoo is in order here.

[GilGrissom]

I think a WooHoo is in order here.

WooHoo

:cool:

[Peace]

The latest rumour about the beta build being for Tiger Server could mean they wish to announce Tiger Server and Client at the same time so they're waiting for the Server to be finalized.

[daveL]

with the notable exception of Panther
What? Panther was announced on the 8th of October and was available in stores on the 24th of October. Let's see, 24-8=16 or 2 weeks, 2 days. That's not close enough for you? Or you just felt like providing a junk post?

[GilGrissom]

The latest rumour about the beta build being for Tiger Server could mean they wish to announce Tiger Server and Client at the same time so they're waiting for the Server to be finalized.

Could be...although that frustrates me as I couldn't give a flying duckies about Tiger Server!! Just want the Client version!! lol! If thats true I sure hope Tiger Server gets a hurry on!!!

I think they should release client first...I think their very first buyers would be impulse home buyers or people who were waiting for Tiger to switch or update their current machine/OS, either way most likely home users "on the whole". Therefore they should get Tiger Cleint out now, get the word around, when people start using it and the corporate world adjusts to it, get Server out once finished...plus you have some time of really good testing of real users using Client that may assist programming Server.

Theres just tonnes of reasons out there now as to why Tiger isnt out and this build etc...only Time will tell!!!

So come on Time...dish the dirt!!! hehe

[eSnow]

Apple always continues development of new builds, even after they are declared GM. Any new changes will be rolled into a 10.4.1 release via software update. This is not surprising at all.

No, whenever Apple picks up work on the next dot-release, they start a new build-train. So in our case, they move from the 8Axxx to the 8Byyy code tree (this might have happened some time ago). If they seed further 8A-builds, they have postponed GM or are currently preparing a security update for 10.4.0.

[iFaulder]

What you did was illegal. Read the license agreement. The G5's OS DVD is really only designed for the G5. And even if it did work on your iMac G3 once, later on you may get a kernel panic with an CPU () error after an update.

Had it installed for about a year and have done 8 updates since the install and have never had a problem and besides, I can't read.

[CubaTBird]

hold on!! im comin'!!! hold on!

its like that song that was on steve jobs itunes playlist.. he truly wants to hold out for tiger haha.. still though.. im up for the wwdc release.. 10.3.9? hrm prolly mid april.. i say BUT MEH.. could be TOMMORROW for all i know

narf :o

[pawnstar]

they need to stop teasing us and unleash the tiger :)

[xsnightclub]

Had it installed for about a year and have done 8 updates since the install and have never had a problem and besides, I can't read.

For not being able to read, you spell pretty good.

However, the legal problems comes into play when you click on accept for the EULA when installing the software. Ignorance is no excuse.

That being said, I've never heard of anyone having a problem installing the software on more than one of there own machines. Apple would look like the world's second biggest as*holes if they fully enforced this term of the EULA.

But I prefer to spend the extra $$$ on the family pack, it helps with further R&D. (and I can wake up without experiencing that not-so-fresh-feeling that pirates inherently do)

[achmafooma]

It's possible, but not legal.
I don't think it's even been tested in the courts for individuals ... if I buy a copyrighted item, I have the right (under fair use) to make copies for personal use (regardless of what EULAs and such say -- the record industry would say you can't copy CDs at all; court decisions say you can as long as you aren't illegally distributing the copies).

Thus, I figure that I have the right to install a legally purchased software product on multiple computers, provided they're all for my own personal use. That's just my interpretation (which would surely differ from Apple's) and, like I said, I don't think it's been tested in the courts.

It is unquestionably illegal to make copies/install it for others or for profit, but multiple computers for your own personal use falls into a grey area ... and an EULA is not necessarily 100% binding anyway.

Anyway, please forgive the slightly off-topic nature of this post ;-).

As for the Tiger release date, isn't it possible (though somewhat out of character) for Apple to announce it at WWDC and say "Oh, and it's in stores starting this afternoon" (kinda like the iPod Shuffle was)?

[Doctor Q]

Just a wild guess, but the long delay in announcing Tiger (which doesn't have to ship to be announced) makes me suspect that Apple is coordinating it with other big announcements.

[k4v1]

Hey...so I recently ran tiger on my mac mini 1.42 ghz with 1 gb of ram. It worked fantastic. the widgets were super smooth as were the animations with the widgets opening, closing, and revolving. Everything ran quicker too. Spotlight was fine as well. So to those that have mac mini's or are waiting to buy them. Tiger gives them a ton of growl. And to those that said tiger wouldn't run well because of core image...apple would not do that to us. Sorry about the pun....

[GilGrissom]

As for the Tiger release date, isn't it possible (though somewhat out of character) for Apple to announce it at WWDC and say "Oh, and it's in stores starting this afternoon" (kinda like the iPod Shuffle was)?

Oh God I hope not!!

ARRRGH!! :eek: :(

[GilGrissom]

Hey...so I recently ran tiger on my mac mini 1.42 ghz with 1 gb of ram. It worked fantastic. the widgets were super smooth as were the animations with the widgets opening, closing, and revolving. Everything ran quicker too. Spotlight was fine as well. So to those that have mac mini's or are waiting to buy them. Tiger gives them a ton of growl. And to those that said tiger wouldn't run well because of core image...apple would not do that to us. Sorry about the pun....

Thats good to know!! Makes me feel reasonably good about Tigers performance.

(Cue the onslaught of posts about the bugs in Tiger!!!!)

[AidenShaw]

Thus, I figure that I have the right to install a legally purchased software product on multiple computers, provided they're all for my own personal use. That's just my interpretation (which would surely differ from Apple's) and, like I said, I don't think it's been tested in the courts.


http://www.apple.com/legal/sla/macosxpanther.html

1. General.

The software (including Boot ROM code), documentation and any fonts accompanying this License ... are licensed, not sold, to you by Apple Computer, Inc. ("Apple") for use only under the terms of this License...


2. Permitted License Uses and Restrictions.

A. This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time. This License does not allow the Apple Software to exist on more than one computer at a time,and you may not make the Apple Software available over a network where it could be used by multiple computers at the same time. You may make one copy of the Apple Software (excluding the Boot ROM code) in machine-readable form for backup purposes only; provided that the backup copy must include all copyright or other proprietary notices contained on the original.


Don't pirate software, you're taking money out of the pockets of the developers.

Do you realize how much it costs to fuel up a Gulfstream these days?

[D*I*S_Frontman]

I know I am a broken record on this issue, but in case any Apple Inc. trolls are monitoring this board, I have to post this on every applicable thread:

FIX COMPRESSOR!

Please make sure 10.3.9 cures all permutations of the "unable to connect to backgraound processes" known bug!!

End of message. Return to your regularly scheduled Tiger drooling.

[GilGrissom]

Don't pirate software, you're taking money out of the pockets of the developers.

Do you realize how much it costs to fuel up a Gulfstream these days?

Agreed.

Panther, Tiger, iTMS etc: We're all for legality here. Makes you feel good inside! :)

That capture also holds the info about being able to copy the CDs...for backup reasons only...that is almost universal across all software and CDs/DVDs.

If ur gonna do it, keep it to yourself...no one is any wiser and all is well in this legally abiding forum! :rolleyes:

[SiliconAddict]

it's illegal. if it says there "only for the same household", then that's what the rules are.


Yah know call it a pet peeve but I'm really getting sick of people saying "illegal" Breaking an EULA does not make it illegal. You are violating a companies rules not the law. The two are not the smae.
Something being illegal suggests you are breaking a law. You aren't. Its opening up the possibility that Apple may file a lawsuit against you for violating an EULA. Which will never happen. Then again considering how Apple has been over the last 6 months with lawsuits. :rolleyes:

[GilGrissom]

Yah know call it a pet peeve but I'm really getting sick of people saying "illegal" Breaking an EULA does not make it illegal. You are violating a companies rules not the law. The two are not the smae.
Something being illegal suggests you are breaking a law. You aren't. Its opening up the possibility that Apple may file a lawsuit against you for violating an EULA. Which will never happen. Then again considering how Apple has been over the last 6 months with lawsuits. :rolleyes:

Guilty conscience??

...joke.

[SpaceMagic]

I'm reallly bored waiting for Tiger now. I might boycott and move to Windows XP.

[GilGrissom]

I'm reallly bored waiting for Tiger now. I might boycott and move to Windows XP.

Whatever you do, do not move to the dark side!!!
Im coming out of the dark side of XP where I can...trust me it aint pretty!!..the anal probing just isn't pleasant n the constant fires burn you, not to mention the red geezer with horns and a pitchfork with MS tatooed on him!

[achmafooma]

Don't pirate software, you're taking money out of the pockets of the developers.

Do you realize how much it costs to fuel up a Gulfstream these days?
LoL-

Just to make myself clear, I'm not advocating piracy -- not in the slightest!! I'm simply pointing out that 'fair use' doctrine trumps an EULA, and you can argue that having [legally-purchased] software on multiple computers for personal use would fall under fair use and therefore would not be piracy at all (but it's never been tested in the courts, so who knows if they would agree with me).

I abhor piracy in the sense of downloading software and never paying the developers for their efforts... but I also question why I should pay twice (or spend more to get a 'family pack') to put a piece of software on two of my own computers which will essentially never be used simultaneously.

Apple deserves my money, and gets it regularly through iTunes, hardware, and software purchases. I don't argue that they shouldn't. But the fair use vs. copyright infringement issues relating to EULAs and multiple-installs for personal-use are fuzzy, to say the least.

[gopher]

Well I've just come off the phone to Apple - I've just bought a Mac Mini, of course I asked re:Tiger and what OS the mini would come with, that I didn't want to pay again later to upgrade. To quote exactly what the lady said on the phone:

'Of course I can;t tell you when Tiger will be released but what I will say is now is a VERY GOOD time to buy a mini and that there is NO NEED to worry about paying to upgrade later'

I guess that means Tiger is with us very soon.

Be sure you got the name of the sales person who told you that, or at least their extension and time you called. Because this is quite different from Apple's prior upgrade policy. Usually they have to announce an actual release date before it is possible to pay to upgrade later. The fact they are saying this now, the sales person is going against Apple's sales policies by giving customers false reasons to buy now if it turns out not to be true. I'd be very skeptical until I saw it in writing on Apple's website.

Edit: http://www.apple.com/macosx/uptodate/ is the website you'd see it on when Apple announces it is OK to buy a Mac and only pay an update price on Tiger. Presently it does not show it. Until it does, expect to pay full price.

[lssmit02]

NB: My comments are limited to US copyright law.

if I buy a copyrighted item, I have the right (under fair use) to make copies for personal use (regardless of what EULAs and such say -- the record industry would say you can't copy CDs at all; court decisions say you can as long as you aren't illegally distributing the copies).
Actually, the reason you can make copies of your music CDs in the US is because of a provision in the Audio Home Recording Act (which amended the US Copyright law) which says that you cannot be sued for infringement for making either analog or digital copies of musical recordings.
Here's the text:

"Section 1008. Prohibition on certain infringement actions

No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog recording device, or an analog recording medium, or based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings." 17 U.S.C. § 1008
Thus, I figure that I have the right to install a legally purchased software product on multiple computers, provided they're all for my own personal use. That's just my interpretation (which would surely differ from Apple's) and, like I said, I don't think it's been tested in the courts.

The US Copyright law specifically allows you to make copies necessary to operate your computer, and to make an archival copy of the the software. However, this does not mean that you can to install software "on on multiple computers, provided they're all for my own personal use." The fair use exception would probably not apply because one of the tests for fair use is whether the copying has an impact on the market for the copyrighted work. Naturally, installing additional copies of software ony licensed for use on one machine would have an impact on such market.
It is unquestionably illegal to make copies/install it for others or for profit, but multiple computers for your own personal use falls into a grey area ... and an EULA is not necessarily 100% binding anyway.
Most cases have upheld EULAs, particularly with respect to the limitations on the rights to use the copyrighted works (software is protected as a literary work under US copyright law - not a perfect fit, but close enough).
Anyway, please forgive the slightly off-topic nature of this post ;-).


Ditto :)

[johnnowak]

If I owned two Macs, buying two copies of Tiger would be idiotic. I do not think ANYONE on this planet would actually do that.

[gopher]

If I owned two Macs, buying two copies of Tiger would be idiotic. I do not think ANYONE on this planet would actually do that.

Read the license agreement here:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=26275

[GilGrissom]

Isn't all this talk of law exciting!!!

10.3.9 friday anyone?

[MattG]

10.3.9 will come out before I leave work today...I can feel it :)

[Zaty]

Isn't all this talk of law exciting!!!

10.3.9 friday anyone?

What about tonight?

[zigziggityzoo]

Just to make myself clear, I'm not advocating piracy -- not in the slightest!! I'm simply pointing out that 'fair use' doctrine trumps an EULA, and you can argue that having [legally-purchased] software on multiple computers for personal use would fall under fair use and therefore would not be piracy at all (but it's never been tested in the courts, so who knows if they would agree with me).

I abhor piracy in the sense of downloading software and never paying the developers for their efforts... but I also question why I should pay twice (or spend more to get a 'family pack') to put a piece of software on two of my own computers which will essentially never be used simultaneously.

Apple deserves my money, and gets it regularly through iTunes, hardware, and software purchases. I don't argue that they shouldn't. But the fair use vs. copyright infringement issues relating to EULAs and multiple-installs for personal-use are fuzzy, to say the least.

The EULA is a contract between you and the company. if you violate that contract, there is a Civil court case that can follow. Even if it's not violating any laws (not saying it is or isnt), you can still be sued. Civil cases are different from Criminal ones.

[lssmit02]

Isn't all this talk of law exciting!!!
Fair enough. Question: Do you think that Apple is saving all of its improvements to OpenGL for Tiger, or will 10.3.9 include the same advances as Tiger, up to this point in time?

[Heilige]

If I owned two Macs, buying two copies of Tiger would be idiotic. I do not think ANYONE on this planet would actually do that.

I know I wouldn't do that, and I never have.. It's like buying two of the same music CDs just so you can copy and listen to your music on two computers. Nobody expects you to REALLY do that, the only reason this is stated is so if someone is doing that on a mass scale that the developer (i.e. Apple) would have something to charge them on.

[GilGrissom]

Fair enough. Question: Do you think that Apple is saving all of its improvements to OpenGL for Tiger, or will 10.3.9 include the same advances as Tiger, up to this point in time?

I have no idea to be honest with you.

My guess would be major improvements left in Tiger, maybe a few updates and improvements in 10.3.9, but primarily in 10.4...would make sense as it would give it another new feature, another reason to upgrade.

[Heilige]

The EULA is a contract between you and the company. if you violate that contract, there is a Civil court case that can follow. Even if it's not violating any laws (not saying it is or isnt), you can still be sued. Civil cases are different from Criminal ones.

Exactly, but of course they won't take you to court because you installed one copy Mac OS X on your 3 computers. Like I said before it's there to cover their butt if anyone were to do that on a mass scale that would adversely affect the company profits etc.

[bbyrdhouse]

With 10.4 coming so soon I don't understand why Apple woul evn bother with 10.3.9.
Anyway, I had to send in my brand spanking new Powerbook yesterday so I am a little bummed out right now.
For some reason it wasn't recognizing one of my stick s of ram. Both stick would work but only from the top bay.
Apple said 5 bussiness day but we'll see. :(

[GilGrissom]

10.3.9 will come out before I leave work today...I can feel it :)

When you leave work matey??!!
(Time difference however...my current time is 7:50pm...compare that with the post time stamp!)
...Im desperate for 10.3.9 to be released so that Tiger is more likely to follow!!

[GilGrissom]

Exactly, but of course they won't take you to court because you installed one copy Mac OS X on your 3 computers. Like I said before it's there to cover their butt if anyone were to do that on a mass scale that would adversely affect the company profits etc.

Like Microsoft? They claim they loose "alot" over pirate copies of Windows.

[GilGrissom]

With 10.4 coming so soon I don't understand why Apple woul evn bother with 10.3.9.
Anyway, I had to send in my brand spanking new Powerbook yesterday so I am a little bummed out right now.
For some reason it wasn't recognizing one of my stick s of ram. Both stick would work but only from the top bay.
Apple said 5 bussiness day but we'll see. :(

I believe its more to do with business customers more than anything. They will still have a massive customer base using Panther even well into Tiger's introduction. People will not switch just like that, some of the time they actually can't, so Apple needs to continue to support the previous OS at this stage, especially if its already made promises to fix certain bugs for its customers in 10.3 and not force them to 10.4, that would peeve a few people off.

Sympathy on the PowerBook btw...I feel for ya!

[AidenShaw]

If I owned two Macs, buying two copies of Tiger would be idiotic.

I do not think ANYONE on this planet would actually do that.


Remember this post when you fill out the activation form for OSX 10.5.... :eek:

[Heilige]

Like Microsoft? They claim they loose "alot" over pirate copies of Windows.

NO , not like Microsoft, they do lose some money because there really ARE people pirating lots of copies (But Microsoft is power hungry anyway). Apple on the other hand prefers to let people make their own decisions on the morality of installing and copying Mac OS X, if this wasn't the case we would be paying more for Mac OS X and would have to ACTIVATE each installed copy with a key etc. by now. Apple still makes money on Mac OS X sales and the customers are happy, why change that.

[MattG]

When you leave work matey??!!
(Time difference however...my current time is 7:50pm...compare that with the post time stamp!)
...Im desperate for 10.3.9 to be released so that Tiger is more likely to follow!!

One hour, fourty-three minutes! :D

[dicklacara]

Exactly, but of course they won't take you to court because you installed one copy Mac OS X on your 3 computers. Like I said before it's there to cover their butt if anyone were to do that on a mass scale that would adversely affect the company profits etc.

But, if every one of the millions of users that have more than one Mac does it...

When Apple thinks that it is a significant enough problem, they will go to some kind of activation, where you cannot run it on a second computer before you uninstall it (or deactivate it) on the first computer.

I would also suggest that a music CD costing $10 is somewhat different than a OS costing 10 times as much.

[GilGrissom]

NO , not like Microsoft, they do lose some money because there really ARE people pirating lots of copies (But Microsoft is power hungry anyway). Apple on the other hand prefers to let people make their own decisions on the morality of installing and copying Mac OS X, if this wasn't the case we would be paying more for Mac OS X and would have to ACTIVATE each installed copy with a key etc. by now. Apple still makes money on Mac OS X sales and the customers are happy, why change that.

Gotchya!! Thanks!! Was wondering the difference between the two...Apple are doing gud then, have a far friendlier image than Microsoft on this issue.

if this latest build of 10.4 is for 10.4.1 then how long or how many builds to you people think it will be before that goes GM and is finished?? Or is this just guesswork and rumor work until its done? Any past experience?

[GilGrissom]

One hour, fourty-three minutes! :D

OO ya getting me excited!! So thats Tiger released in One hour, thirty three minutes then!!! hehehehe!!!

[Heilige]

But, if every one of the millions of users that have more than one Mac does it...

When Apple thinks that it is a significant enough problem, they will go to some kind of activation, where you cannot run it on a second computer before you uninstall it (or deactivate it) on the first computer.

I would also suggest that a music CD costing $10 is somewhat different than a OS costing 10 times as much.

If that ever happens then Apple will no longer be Apple and I will eat my words. They won't do it.

[AidenShaw]

NO , not like Microsoft, they do lose some money because there really ARE people pirating lots of copies (But Microsoft is power hungry anyway).

Apple on the other hand prefers to let people make their own decisions on the morality of installing and copying Mac OS X, if this wasn't the case we would be paying more for Mac OS X and would have to ACTIVATE each installed copy with a key etc. by now.

Apple still makes money on Mac OS X sales and the customers are happy, why change that.


IMO the reason that Apple isn't as concerned is that you need to buy a Mac to run OSX. They make money on Macs.

In fact, it could be that they love pirates - when people see how poorly the new OS runs on their old Macs, they'll buy new Macs to get the full 10.4 experience. "Planned obsolesence" can take many forms....

[Heilige]

Gotchya!! Thanks!! Was wondering the difference between the two...Apple are doing gud then, have a far friendlier image than Microsoft on this issue.

if this latest build of 10.4 is for 10.4.1 then how long or how many builds to you people think it will be before that goes GM and is finished?? Or is this just guesswork and rumor work until its done? Any past experience?

If it's important to out when Tiger is released then they will finish it at the same time otherwise the dot updates take a little while, like a couple to a few months.

[GilGrissom]

If it's important to out when Tiger is released then they will finish it at the same time otherwise the dot updates take a little while, like a couple to a few months.

Right, thanks.
I guess its the same old guess/rumor game to say whether this 10.4.1 update is desperately needed or it will be a few months, dont need to repeat all the posts about how unhappy some people are with the current builds of Tiger, buggy n all, n how some people are completely happy. I guess in some small way it kinda depends on when Tiger as a whole is finished and when it is released. Same old same old :confused:

[dicklacara]

If that ever happens then Apple will no longer be Apple and I will eat my words. They won't do it.


I think that Apple (or any other software publisher) is entitled to get a fair price for every piece of software on every computer where it is used.

What if they did this:

1) went to an activation scheme that insured that a given copy of OS X was only installed/activated on a single machine at a time.

2) by doing this ere able to receive fair compensation & profit for the cost of OS X.

3) since there were no more illegal copies, they would reduce the price to remove the built-in allowance for illegal copies.


I believe that Apple could reduce the price of OS X to, say, $50-$75 per copy and we all would be ahead.

[bosrs1]

Looks like 428 is the Gold Master and the OS 10.4 release and 432 is the first work on 10.4.1.

[dicklacara]

Looks like 428 is the Gold Master and the OS 10.4 release and 432 is the first work on 10.4.1.

It may be that 428 was just a build put together for FOSE & NAB.

I have not heard of any seeding of 428 to developers outside of Apple.

[Laslo Panaflex]

It may be that 428 was just a build put together for FOSE & NAB.

I have not heard of any seeding of 428 to developers outside of Apple.

I've heard that it available developers on ADC :)

[bosrs1]

I've heard that it available developers on ADC :)
Yeah so have I. 428 is the build being released to the public as 10.4. Anything after it like this 432 is definitely the work on the 10.4.1 update.

[daveL]

I've heard that it available developers on ADC :)
I've been checking and just checked again. The last client seed on the ADC site remains 8A425 (March 28). The last server seed is 8A420 (April 5). Don't know where your info came from, but it's incorrect. It's possible that Premier accounts have it, while Select accounts don't, but that's not normally the way it goes.

[kylefsu32]

I'm glad they are double checking everything. It would suck to buy a brand new kickass OS and then find out it's filled with little bugs.

That's how I felt with Win XP! Well maybe not so kickass.

[daveL]

Yeah so have I. 428 is the build being released to the public as 10.4. Anything after it like this 432 is definitely the work on the 10.4.1 update.
Interesting how folks that obviously aren't paying ADC members seem to be so sure of what's builds are what. As stated in previous posts, builds that represent work in progress on 10.4.1 will be a separate development branch, i.e. 8Bxxx. So, 8A432 has nothing to do with 10.4.1. Personally, I think Apple is playing the rumor mill like a fiddle, although I do think we will see Tiger later this month.

[bosrs1]

Interesting how folks that obviously aren't paying ADC members seem to be so sure of what's builds are what. As stated in previous posts, builds that represent work in progress on 10.4.1 will be a separate development branch, i.e. 8Bxxx. So, 8A432 has nothing to do with 10.4.1. Personally, I think Apple is playing the rumor mill like a fiddle, although I do think we will see Tiger later this month.
Ever occur to you that some people might know more then you or the ADC?

I'm just saying. And your supposition that they'll go to a 8Bxxx scheme is just that, supposition. It has no basis in reality.

[bosrs1]

Also it's quite possible that the 432 model is actually a system specific release for the iMacs or the Towers. 428 is the final shipping version for us slubs however with older machines.

[dicklacara]

I've been checking and just checked again. The last client seed on the ADC site remains 8A425 (March 28). The last server seed is 8A420 (April 5). Don't know where your info came from, but it's incorrect. It's possible that Premier accounts have it, while Select accounts don't, but that's not normally the way it goes.

Trying to remember what happened with Panther-- was the GM build ever posted to ADC prior to release?

[bosrs1]

Trying to remember what happened with Panther-- was the GM build ever posted to ADC prior to release?
I don't believe it was.

[wdlove]

Right, thanks.
I guess its the same old guess/rumor game to say whether this 10.4.1 update is desperately needed or it will be a few months, dont need to repeat all the posts about how unhappy some people are with the current builds of Tiger, buggy n all, n how some people are completely happy. I guess in some small way it kinda depends on when Tiger as a whole is finished and when it is released. Same old same old :confused:

Now I'm confused. If you are saying that the current Tiger build is buggy, then how could there be Gold Master. Or is Apple trying to keep us off guard? :confused:

[bosrs1]

Now I'm confused. If you are saying that the current Tiger build is buggy, then how could there be Gold Master. Or is Apple trying to keep us off guard? :confused:
I think what he's saying is that there is one or two bugs in the GM. Which is not unusual. Considering how many bugs they've worked out one or two is to be expected. However they've probably already identified them and will have 10.4.1 ready for quick release after the launch to fix it.

[dicklacara]

Also it's quite possible that the 432 model is actually a system specific release for the iMacs or the Towers. 428 is the final shipping version for us slubs however with older machines.

When did Apple start doing release builds for specific hardware-- I've never heard of that before?

Rather, a one-size-fits-all release & the installer does customization for specific hardware.

[floyde]

Hi, I'm about to purchase a new powerbook but I want one with Tiger included. How long do you guys think it will take for this to happen, will it be immediately after realease? Will the price increase because of the new OS?

[bosrs1]

When did Apple start doing release builds for specific hardware-- I've never heard of that before?

Rather, a one-size-fits-all release & the installer does customization for specific hardware.
They've always done that. They did it with Panther too. They just don't broadcast it. Then when 10.4.1 comes out we're all brought up to the same OS model. The differences between the initial releases though are tiny.

[daveL]

Trying to remember what happened with Panther-- was the GM build ever posted to ADC prior to release?
Yes, 7B85 was posted after the announcement, but ahead (10 days or so?) of shipping. I know, because I downloaded it from ADC and was running it before it ever shipped. It took several days to complete the download; the site was overrun with traffic, as you might imagine.

[dicklacara]

Hi, I'm about to purchase a new powerbook but I want one with Tiger included. How long do you guys think it will take for this to happen, will it be immediately after realease? Will the price increase because of the new OS?

It depends. If the model you want is in short supply (no inventory) you will likely getthe latest software with it. If, not you will get a free upgrade ($20 shipping).

It's a crapshoot! I have always thought that it is kind of silly to base the timing of a $2,000 plus purchase decision on the unknown availability of a $129 OS.

Installation (difficulty/time) of OS X is no big deal, so that shouldn't be a consideration. If Tiger is only available on a DVD, then it will be a lot simpler/faster (more unattended) than flipping 3 CDs.

The price of an OS is included in the price of the hardware, so, no, the price will not increase.

[GilGrissom]

I think what he's saying is that there is one or two bugs in the GM. Which is not unusual. Considering how many bugs they've worked out one or two is to be expected. However they've probably already identified them and will have 10.4.1 ready for quick release after the launch to fix it.

Ye...i think that was roughly it!! Ta!! I wasn't actually statin anything on my own, i was "trying" to simply say that a lot of people have been moaning about the bugs in Tiger currently and I was covering my back incase someone jumped at me saying it wasnt ready or woteva!!! lol!! sorry for any confusion mateys!! :o :confused:

I think you've explained it much better than I have!! Cheers!

[GilGrissom]

One hour, fourty-three minutes! :D

Back from work yet matey??
Any sign of 10.3.9??...im so gutted!!...im personally hoping your working overtime and 10.3.9 is waiting for you to get back home!! hehe!!

[dicklacara]

They've always done that. They did it with Panther too. They just don't broadcast it. Then when 10.4.1 comes out we're all brought up to the same OS model. The differences between the initial releases though are tiny.

How do they determine who gets what?


I have:

2 iMac G3
2 iMac G5
1 TiBook G4
1 AlBook G4 17
1 Mac Mini

I have been able to install any build on any of these (except 1 G3 with no DVD, no FireWire)

[billyboy]

Don't pirate software, you're taking money out of the pockets of the developers.



I was quite pleased when the people who sold us our G5 loaded copies of photoshop and Office for "testing" purposes. I have hardly used them so I wont be buying them, so the two comapnies have not lost out there. . But call me bias, if I thought they were giving away copies of Apple software, I reckon i would shop them. How sad is that! Brainwash, brainwash, all Apple is good....

I will join the line to buy Tiger of course, but when that will be, who knows.

[floyde]

It depends. If the model you want is in short supply (no inventory) you will likely getthe latest software with it. If, not you will get a free upgrade ($20 shipping).

It's a crapshoot! I have always thought that it is kind of silly to base the timing of a $2,000 plus purchase decision on the unknown availability of a $129 OS.

Installation (difficulty/time) of OS X is no big deal, so that shouldn't be a consideration. If Tiger is only available on a DVD, then it will be a lot simpler/faster (more unattended) than flipping 3 CDs.

The price of an OS is included in the price of the hardware, so, no, the price will not increase.

The only problem I have with purchasing a powerbook with Panther is the cost of the upgrade. I can barely afford the one I want (I´m going for the 17 inch with an extra gig in ram) and $129 extra is just too much for me.
But you say I can get an upgrade for $20... how does this work, is it only valid in Apple stores or would it be possible on say.. best buy? The thing is, I don't live in the US and Apple products here are scarce (except for Ipods) and there aren't any apple stores around. Is it possible to download the upgrade instead? (distance is a big problem in my case...)

[digitalbiker]

I believe that Apple could reduce the price of OS X to, say, $50-$75 per copy and we all would be ahead.

What dream world do you live in?

Apple is a decent corporation but they are still in business for the money. When was the last time a new software release dropped in price, especially after applying a software copy protection scheme.

Usually it is the other way around. Copy protection costs time and/or money, therefore the activation scheme would most likely increase the OS price. :eek:

[dicklacara]

The only problem I have with purchasing a powerbook with Panther is the cost of the upgrade. I can barely afford the one I want (I´m going for the 17 inch with an extra gig in ram) and $129 extra is just too much for me.
But you say I can get an upgrade for $20... how does this work, is it only valid in Apple stores or would it be possible on say.. best buy? The thing is, I don't live in the US and Apple products here are scarce (except for Ipods) and there aren't any apple stores around. Is it possible to download the upgrade instead? (distance is a big problem in my case...)

If you buy your computer after Tiger is announced, you are entitled to receive the Tiger version for $20 postage. The details of how to do this will be published with the tiger announcement, Bo, you cannot download it.

If you want to be 99% sure to get Tiger with your computer, I'd wait at least 1 month after Tiger starts shipping (again, depending on where you buy it and how popular the model is)

[daveL]

Ever occur to you that some people might know more then you or the ADC?

I'm just saying. And your supposition that they'll go to a 8Bxxx scheme is just that, supposition. It has no basis in reality.
I'm sure there are, but I'm also sure, based on several of your posts, e.g. Panther GM wasn't posted on ADC and split release builds based on specific HW, that you aren't one of them.

[bosrs1]

I'm sure there are, but I'm also sure, based on several of your posts, e.g. Panther GM wasn't posted on ADC and split release builds based on specific HW, that you aren't one of them.
You keep telling yourself that. Panther wasn't released on ADC until after it's announcment. And as for the HW thing, you're obviously out of the loop.

[bosrs1]

How do they determine who gets what?


I have:

2 iMac G3
2 iMac G5
1 TiBook G4
1 AlBook G4 17
1 Mac Mini

I have been able to install any build on any of these (except 1 G3 with no DVD, no FireWire)
No no, NEW hardware. The preloaded stuff, not already purchased machines like you or I have. We'll get build 428.

[daveL]

You keep telling yourself that. Panther wasn't released on ADC until after it's announcment. And as for the HW thing, you're obviously out of the loop.
I said after the announcement; read the post. The original post you responded to said "prior to release"; you said it wasn't.

As for the HW specific release build, i.e. one build for one specific class of HW and another for other HW: name one.

[Peace]

I can imagine from looking at the posts from people waiting for Tiger to get a PB or G5 or Imacs that Apple might start hurting in the sales dept. if they dont get Tiger out ASAP:-)

[dicklacara]

What dream world do you live in?

Apple is a decent corporation but they are still in business for the money. When was the last time a new software release dropped in price, especially after applying a software copy protection scheme.

Usually it is the other way around. Copy protection costs time and/or money, therefore the activation scheme would most likely increase the OS price. :eek:

Ahh... but, Activation is not copy protection-- make as many copies as you like, or mail your CD to all your friends.

It is relatively simple to add activation code & Apple already has the infrastructure to support this.

Here's an example of the way the numbers might crunch:

Say there are 1,000 Macs that will run Tiger

based on history, Apple knows they will selll 400 at $100 = $40,000

they know that the rest will be ripped off ($60,000 lost)

But they implement Activation at a cost of $10,000

They reduce the price of Tiger to $60, but the sell 1,000 = $60,000.

$60,000 -$10,000 = $50,000

We get Tiger for less & Apple makes more money.

And, here's the kicker: since the price of Tiger is (now) so attractive ($60 instead of $100), Apple sels an additional 100 copies... pure gravey.

Obviously the numbers are relative & some analysis would need to be done.

But, the concept is sound: You can sell more, for less, and make more profit.

[cybertron3]

I have a perfectly legal copy of winXP Pro.. and I bought it for $5. I was tempted to just download it just to rebel against microsoft, but then I realised that my school charges the $5, not M$, so I gladly paid it.

(Just for numbers, 1 Win XP comp dual boot with Linux, 5 Macs [my G5 Dualie included]- all up to date with 10.3)

Like Microsoft? They claim they loose "alot" over pirate copies of Windows.

[dicklacara]

No no, NEW hardware. The preloaded stuff, not already purchased machines like you or I have. We'll get build 428.

OK! I can understand that! There easily could be variant builds so new machines could be preloaded with Tiger.

There might even be minor differences based on new hardware,

These would never be seeded for general testing by ADC members.

Then, as soon as you fire up your new hardware, perform localization, etc... it suggests that you do a software update,

Seems as this always happens on a new box, anyway.

[bosrs1]

OK! I can understand that! There easily could be variant builds so new machines could be preloaded with Tiger.

There might even be minor differences based on new hardware,

These would never be seeded for general testing by ADC members.

Then, as soon as you fire up your new hardware, perform localization, etc... it suggests that you do a software update,

Seems as this always happens on a new box, anyway.
Exactly. That's what they'll do. Believe me 428 was the final GM build. I heard they even had a party when it was done. Any further builds are either A) 10.4.1 or B) Hardware specific builds for the different models being preloaded.

[~loserman~]

Ahh... but, Activation is not copy protection-- make as many copies as you like, or mail your CD to all your friends.

It is relatively simple to add activation code & Apple already has the infrastructure to support this.

OMG I sure hope they don't do activation codes.
That is the single most frustrating part of some software IMO.
When I find software that uses an activation code I immediately refuse to buy it any more.
It gripes my butt to have to activate software. I feel the same way about registering software.
I reinstall my computers very frequently and find activation annoying. Especially after the second or third time.
If Tiger required activation(which it doesn't) I would stick with Panther.
I did the same thing with Windows. All of my PC's run Windows 2K even though I own 2 legal copies of XP. I run Win 2K just because I don't feel like having to call them to reactivate the freaking XP.

[bosrs1]

I said after the announcement; read the post. The original post you responded to said "prior to release"; you said it wasn't.

As for the HW specific release build, i.e. one build for one specific class of HW and another for other HW: name one.
By release I meant announcment. My apologies for the confusion. I consider announcment the release since it "officially" exists.

ANd as for the HW specific release of the OS, look back to the Original Panther release. The builds were not the same on all of the models prior to first software updates on the machines.

[dicklacara]

OMG I sure hope they don't do activation codes.
That is the single most frustrating part of some software IMO.
When I find software that uses an activation code I immediately refuse to buy it any more.
It gripes my butt to have to activate software. I feel the same way about registering software.
I reinstall my computers very frequently and find activation annoying. Especially after the second or third time.
If Tiger required activation(which it doesn't) I would stick with Panther.
I did the same thing with Windows. All of my PC's run Windows 2K even though I own 2 legal copies of XP. I run Win 2K just because I don't feel like having to call them to reactivate the freaking XP.

If activation were implemented correctly:

1) it would be performed by a wizard, available 24/7 -- that would dial the site and activate automatically. (pre-installed software would be pre-activated)

2) you would only need to call if there were problems that could not be resolved by the wizard.

3) there would be a grace period, say a month, after initial startup. where an unactivated copy would run.

Normally the activation would be no more difficult than a software update or warranty registration. (it doesn't need to know anything about you, and only your machine's serial number)

For the honest person it would be no big deal

For the person who wants to try before you buy, it would be great,

Activation could be purchased, any time, thru something like the ITMS & be no more difficult than buying an album.

I don't particularly like Activation, either. But, unless companies can make a legitimate profit on their products, there will be no products.

I would rather have activation, lower-priced software & immediate gratification (download & install; than pay higher prices, additional shipping charges, and wait for delivery.

Apple could do this right! (and make legitimate profits at lower prices).

[~loserman~]

Exactly. That's what they'll do. Believe me 428 was the final build. I heard they even had a party when it was done. Any further builds are either A) 10.4.1 or B) Hardware specific builds for the different models being preloaded.

I still think that Tiger hasn't gone GM yet and here is why.
We are a major account for Apple.( We spend millions with them)
We always get the GM builds before the products get announced.
Here is a small list of products we received before they were announced.
Jaguar GM
Panther GM
XSAN GM
And we knew they were the GM's when they were sent to us.
We always get them Fedex within 1 or 2 days tops after they go GM.
We have been promised to get both the Tiger GM and Server GM as soon as they are ready.
And so far we have not been notified that that either has gone GM.
Suffice it to say we do have constant communications with People in the know at Apple and we haven't been told it is GM. Close but not finished yet.
Given our history with Apple over the last 3 or 4 years.
My basic question would be since we got notified of all the above products AND received the known GMs as soon as they were ready why would Apple change their policy with us over this one.

[advocate]

based on history, Apple knows they will selll 400 at $100 = $40,000

they know that the rest will be ripped off ($60,000 lost)

But they implement Activation at a cost of $10,000

They reduce the price of Tiger to $60, but the sell 1,000 = $60,000.


Nope, they won't sell a copy to everyone. I'm more inclined to get a crack for software that requires activation than for software that doesn't. Basically, if the company treats me like a potential thief, then a pox on them.

[dicklacara]

I still think that Tiger hasn't gone GM yet and here is why.
We are a major account for Apple.( We spend millions with them)
We always get the GM builds before the products get announced.
Here is a small list of products we received before they were announced.
Jaguar GM
Panther GM
XSAN GM
And we knew they were the GM's when they were sent to us.
We always get them Fedex within 1 or 2 days tops after they go GM.
We have been promised to get both the Tiger GM and Server GM as soon as they are ready.
And so far we have not been notified that that either has gone GM.
Suffice it to say we do have constant communications with People in the know at Apple and we haven't been told it is GM. Close but not finished yet.
Given our history with Apple over the last 3 or 4 years.
My basic question would be since we got notified of all the above products AND received the known GMs as soon as they were ready why would Apple change their policy with us over this one.

Makes sense to me!

Based on previous posts, it is possible that some new production are being seeded with 824, knowing full well, that after localization, the "GM" software can be provided thru Software Update.

In fact, I would bet that any pre-installed software on any box is out of date when you get it.

With that logic, the GM would only be required for boxed versions of OSX (not the disks that come with each computer)

Trying to remember-- were Panther Client & Panther Server released at the same time & the same build?

Also, I would hope to see the latest stable Apache, Perl, PHP, JBoss, etc included in the eventual Tiger release (If they wait too long they will need to include Jafa 5.0 Tiger, too).

[mkjellman]

I still think that Tiger hasn't gone GM yet and here is why.


Well I couldn't agree with you more. I think Tiger is usable. I can use it, I do every day but there are a bunch of things that are so noticeable with window refreshing issues and other glitches that would be stupid for them to release the product with. There are still known issues even in their seed notes and I know Jag and Panther were not like that either....I hope it has not gone GM!!!

[daveL]

Well I couldn't agree with you more. I think Tiger is usable. I can use it, I do every day but there are a bunch of things that are so noticeable with window refreshing issues and other glitches that would be stupid for them to release the product with. There are still known issues even in their seed notes and I know Jag and Panther were not like that either....I hope it has not gone GM!!!
Although I agree with you and ~loserman~, I can't understand why these later seeds have not made it to ADC. Again, I think Apple is playing the rumor mill like a fiddle, at the moment.

[dicklacara]

Nope, they won't sell a copy to everyone. I'm more inclined to get a crack for software that requires activation than for software that doesn't. Basically, if the company treats me like a potential thief, then a pox on them.

Didn't say everyone would buy it!

Meant something like:

there are 1,500 Tiger-capable computers.

1,000 of these will actually run Tiger.

400 will buy Tiger

600 will rip it off

I don't look at it as treating you/me as a thief!

What they would be saying is:

"I have this OS that I currently sell for $129 because many people rip it off. If you work with me to prevent this, I can sell it to you (and everyone else) for $60

And, as an additional benefit, I'll let you download it for instant gratification"

Interesting... Apple could offer it both ways & test the Market!

There are things that can be learned from the iTMS and Napster!

[cybertron3]

All of my PC's run Windows 2K even though I own 2 legal copies of XP. I run Win 2K just because I don't feel like having to call them to reactivate the freaking XP.

Oh man- that is so fun to do drunk ;)

[bosrs1]

Although I agree with you and ~loserman~, I can't understand why these later seeds have not made it to ADC. Again, I think Apple is playing the rumor mill like a fiddle, at the moment.
Well the last ADC build was 425 correct?

From what I've seen of 428 it's resolved alot of those issues you mention. There is only one issue regarding certain iSights not working with mutliperson iChat.

[dicklacara]

I have QT6 Pro, but the serial no longer works with QT7 (it did before)

Anyway, I would like to play with some h264 encoded video.

Anyone know where I can get some files (since I can''t create them)?

Oops, my bad! Posted to the wrong place!

[MacTRUTH]

I really believe we are looking at a June 1-ish release. The rebate on Amazon.com clearly states it is good on pre-orders only, and is valid for purchases made through 5/31/05. Which would mean a release date of June 1. Also, the rebate must be postmarked by 7/1/05, giving everyone the traditional 30 day window to send it in after purchase. This would also fit neatly into Apple's assertion of availability in "the first half of 2005."

[macux]

I still think that Tiger hasn't gone GM yet and here is why.
We are a major account for Apple.( We spend millions with them)
We always get the GM builds before the products get announced.
Here is a small list of products we received before they were announced.
Jaguar GM
Panther GM
XSAN GM
And we knew they were the GM's when they were sent to us.
We always get them Fedex within 1 or 2 days tops after they go GM.
We have been promised to get both the Tiger GM and Server GM as soon as they are ready.
And so far we have not been notified that that either has gone GM.
Suffice it to say we do have constant communications with People in the know at Apple and we haven't been told it is GM. Close but not finished yet.
Given our history with Apple over the last 3 or 4 years.
My basic question would be since we got notified of all the above products AND received the known GMs as soon as they were ready why would Apple change their policy with us over this one.

Maybe they figured out that you keep posting all this information about one of their number 1 multi-million dollar clients and are witholding the GM this time because of all the leaks!

[swissmann]

The first half of the year deadline is approaching quickly. I want to see Tiger soon. I wonder what NAB has in store.

[afields]

it will be announced today (friday), bank on it.

[SAukland]

it will be announced today (friday), bank on it.

Unfortunately, we've banked on enough of these "for sure (x) day". "can't reveal my sources" "the April 1st announcement is legit" "wait until monday, for sure" "ok, tomorrow, just watch. bank on it".

Friday will be different, I suppose. I hope you're right.
But I doubt it for some reason.

This Tiger is far too stealthy, and lacks the announcement pounce thus far.
Hopefully, however, this will be made up with precision and accuracy (in the OS that is.) :rolleyes:

[powerbook911]

it will be announced today (friday), bank on it.

Is this a joke, or are you serious? :)

[Lacero]

They said this last week. :rolleyes: NO doubt next we'll be saying it again.

[JFreak]

multiple computers for your own personal use falls into a grey area

actually, no. if it's a single-seat license, then it's a single-seat license; however, what does it mean, regarding operating systems? the operating system is considered installed in "a hard drive" which belongs to "a computer", so if there are no compatibility issues, you can move that one (portable firewire) hard drive between multiple computers and still only need a single-seat license. that is 100% legal.

[dpclark]

I really believe we are looking at a June 1-ish release. The rebate on Amazon.com clearly states it is good on pre-orders only, and is valid for purchases made through 5/31/05. Which would mean a release date of June 1. Also, the rebate must be postmarked by 7/1/05, giving everyone the traditional 30 day window to send it in after purchase. This would also fit neatly into Apple's assertion of availability in "the first half of 2005."

perhaps apple don't want the release date given away (or even amazon just don't know it) - anyway they can retrospectivly alter this date anytime for the rebate - or play good customer service and honour it anyway if tiger jumps out of the box earlier

[fpnc]

It may be that the Tiger OS has gone golden master but that a few of the bundled applications are still being worked on. They can't release a retail version of Tiger until all of Apple's bundled application work with the new code base. So, not only does the Tiger OS need to be GM, but Tiger compatible versions of all of Apple's OS-bundled applications and utilities need to be done as well as things like iLife.

I'm not saying that the above is the reason for the apparent delay in announcing Tiger, but it's a possibility. If true, this would be a bit of an embarrassment (or worse) for one or more of Apple's software development teams, but it could happen (for example, what if there was a serious problem with Safari when run on Tiger).

[dpclark]

It may be that the Tiger OS has gone golden master but that a few of the bundled applications are still being worked on. They can't release a retail version of Tiger until all of Apple's bundled application work with the new code base. So, not only does the Tiger OS need to be GM, but Tiger compatible versions of all of Apple's OS-bundled applications and utilities need to be done as well as things like iLife.

I'm not saying that the above is the reason for the apparent delay in announcing Tiger, but it's a possibility. If true, this would be a bit of an embarrassment (or worse) for one or more of Apple's software development teams, but it could happen (for example, what if there was a serious problem with Safari when run on Tiger).

True, but a lot of the apps have new versions for tiger - safari and mail off the top of my head.

[fpnc]

True, but a lot of the apps have new versions for tiger - safari and mail off the top of my head.

Exactly, that's the point. There are new version of many of the bundled applications and some of those may still have problems. However, that doesn't mean that the OS itself couldn't already be declared GM. If the new version of Safari/Mail/etc. still had problems they couldn't ship the Tiger retail packages until those application bugs were fixed (if the problems were serious). In a perfect world that type of dependency wouldn't be allowed to happen since application compatibility for any OS release is a very important metric and problems such as this would usually be resolved well before the final release of a new OS, but bad things can happen.

[Jo-Kun]

they allso did release updates for MacOSX 10.2 Jag after the release of Panther... so its possible we see Tiger first and then still the latest upgrade for Panther...

and Like someone said: It's time for something computer not something iPod :D don't get me wrong I like the iPod... but I like the i/Powermac even more :p because that's what I use to work with all the time... my iPod is there as storage/carstereo/homestereo...

so let's give us the new eMac, the cheapest G5 around ;-) DualCore G4 PowerBooks, or even G5?? and the dualCore G5 PowerMacs :D not that I need an upgrade... but I'd like to have a new iBook/PowerBook as backup system and for on location use (and I will not buy any of these before Tiger comes with it... then I can install it on the G5 too :D hehehe)

[fps]

My crystal ball told me this morning that Tiger will be released between now and end of June 05 ;)
Be patient guys.

[Jonnie]

Hey guys,

When tiger arrives, i'll immediatly buy the beast. However, i'm not in the mood for a HD wipe and install everything form scratch.

Is an archived install as good as a clean install?? I never found that one out...

Tenx

[GilGrissom]

My crystal ball told me this morning that Tiger will be released between now and end of June 05 ;)
Be patient guys.

So thats in the first half of 2005 then!!

[GilGrissom]

Hey guys,

When tiger arrives, i'll immediatly buy the beast. However, i'm not in the mood for a HD wipe and install everything form scratch.

Is an archived install as good as a clean install?? I never found that one out...

Tenx

If its similar to windows then not really!! In my experience its always best to have a clean install for the long run.

People may have other views...

[JFreak]

Is an archived install as good as a clean install?? I never found that one out...

yes. it first archives the old system and then installs the new one.

[sausages]

who cares about 10.4? i'm waiting until 10.5 :rolleyes:

[Zaty]

Now it's getting weird. According to macnews.net.tc who seem to be well informed about builds, it's still unclear if 8A428 really is GM. Like someone said in an earlier post, the fact that the latest build, which was said to be the first build of 10.4.1, still is in the 8A4xx range, could mean that Tiger hasn't gone GM yet. If it had, wouldn't Apple have switched to the 8BXX range? Perhaps 8A428 was just some release candidate build for FOSE? To be honest, I don't what to believe anymore. I guess we have to wait and see what happens.

Link:

http://story.ch/cgi-bin/macnews.cgi/index.html

[MacSA]

All the Tiger/April rumours so far have been false.......

Tiger at WWDC....... ;)

[Jonx]

I dont care anymore because of these rumors :)

[jelloshotsrule]

actually, no. if it's a single-seat license, then it's a single-seat license; however, what does it mean, regarding operating systems? the operating system is considered installed in "a hard drive" which belongs to "a computer", so if there are no compatibility issues, you can move that one (portable firewire) hard drive between multiple computers and still only need a single-seat license. that is 100% legal.

conversely, would installing on two drives in a single computer be allowed?

i realize this is all speculation and all, but i find it more interesting than 50 people all spitting out their date for release and they all seem to have inside information, yet none have been right....

[AppleAce]

I have QT6 Pro, but the serial no longer works with QT7 (it did before)

Anyway, I would like to play with some h264 encoded video.

Anyone know where I can get some files (since I can''t create them)?

Oops, my bad! Posted to the wrong place!
You could download ffmpegX while you still can http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/15473 and encode it yourself.

[gopher]

Hey guys,

When tiger arrives, i'll immediatly buy the beast. However, i'm not in the mood for a HD wipe and install everything form scratch.

Is an archived install as good as a clean install?? I never found that one out...

Tenx

This is covered more in another discussion.

There is no such thing as a Mac OS X clean install. Please read this discussion thoroughly:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1367391

[daveL]

It may be that the Tiger OS has gone golden master but that a few of the bundled applications are still being worked on. They can't release a retail version of Tiger until all of Apple's bundled application work with the new code base. So, not only does the Tiger OS need to be GM, but Tiger compatible versions of all of Apple's OS-bundled applications and utilities need to be done as well as things like iLife.

I'm not saying that the above is the reason for the apparent delay in announcing Tiger, but it's a possibility. If true, this would be a bit of an embarrassment (or worse) for one or more of Apple's software development teams, but it could happen (for example, what if there was a serious problem with Safari when run on Tiger).
Apps like Mail, Preview and Safari are part of the base OS installation. They are tested along with the rest of the OS throughout the development cycle. Maybe you're thinking of the iLife apps? Even so, it would make zero sense for Apple to wait for the OS to go GM before they began testing iLife apps; they been developing and testing them all along.

[daveL]

This is covered more in another discussion.

There is no such thing as a Mac OS X clean install. Please read this discussion thoroughly:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1367391
These are word games. A "clean install" is a well understood term in the industry; it equates to Erase and Install in the OS X installation option list. Get real.

[rog]

I am starting to think they will announce it next week at NAB along with some other announcements, hopefully new G5s which will ship with tiger. So maybe in stores on April 30th if we're lucky.

[gopher]

These are word games. A "clean install" is a well understood term in the industry; it equates to Erase and Install in the OS X installation option list. Get real.

Dave,
This is no word game. If you bothered to read the thread I pointed you to, you'd learn that one time clean install did NOT mean an erase and install. To avoid confusion, use the proper terms for the technique used. Please read the thread and don't argue with a technician in the industry for 23 years.

Specifically read the post number 33 in that thread.

[klaus]

A clean install is known as "beginning from scratch", a lot of people don't need all the fancy words, and I don't think there will be a mixup with those words.

You are both right, but it doesn't need to be 100% perfect all the time.

Cu guys

[klaus]

Dave,
Please read the thread and don't argue with a technician in the industry for 23 years.


Sounds a little bossy to me..no need for that here. Let's enjoy the waiting game for Tiger ;)

[daveL]

Dave,
This is no word game. If you bothered to read the thread I pointed you to, you'd learn that one time clean install did NOT mean an erase and install. To avoid confusion, use the proper terms for the technique used. Please read the thread and don't argue with a technician in the industry for 23 years.

Specifically read the post number 33 in that thread.
I *did* read the thread, and I agree with the first post in it. I couldn't give a crap about some arcane OS 8 reference. Believe it or not, there is a tech world out there beyond Macs, and that world is considerably larger. That world is not going to stop using a well understood term just because of some Apple-speak in OS 8.

And BTW, I'm a senior engineer in the industry, with a career spanning 31 years, so take your condescension elsewhere.

[~loserman~]

I *did* read the thread, and I agree with the first post in it. I couldn't give a crap about some arcane OS 8 reference. Believe it or not, there is a tech world out there beyond Macs, and that world is considerably larger. That world is not going to stop using a well understood term just because of some Apple-speak in OS 8.

Agreed
Just because Apple doesn't understand industry standard terms or chooses not to accept them, it doesn't remove or negate the standard usage of them.

Which is like when Jobs pronounced Jaguar as Jagwire, the spelling and or meaning of the word didn't change Regardless of the Reality Distortion Field.

[fpnc]

Apps like Mail, Preview and Safari are part of the base OS installation. They are tested along with the rest of the OS throughout the development cycle. Maybe you're thinking of the iLife apps? Even so, it would make zero sense for Apple to wait for the OS to go GM before they began testing iLife apps; they been developing and testing them all along.

Of course "Mail, Preview, and Safari" are part of the base OS installation. But they are not tied directly to the version control of OS X itself. If that were true every time Apple released an update to Safari or Mail they would have to change the version number of OS X.

And yes, these bundled applications (and iLife) are tested right along with the OS. But that doesn't mean that every bug or problem in those bundled applications will be fixed or resolved prior to the base OS being declared GM.

I'm just suggesting that the apparent delay in the release of OS X might not have anything to do with whether the base OS has been declared GM or not. The OS may be GM, however, it could be that other software concerns are holding up the release. I'm just making a guess about the apparent delay, I'm not saying this is the cause.

[gopher]

I *did* read the thread, and I agree with the first post in it. I couldn't give a crap about some arcane OS 8 reference. Believe it or not, there is a tech world out there beyond Macs, and that world is considerably larger. That world is not going to stop using a well understood term just because of some Apple-speak in OS 8.

And BTW, I'm a senior engineer in the industry, with a career spanning 31 years, so take your condescension elsewhere.

Dave,
Regardless, I would like to make the point that term was valid as recently as 9.2.1. So it isn't just OS 8. And the fact that Apple keeps on using that term in its knowledgebase when describing Mac OS 9 installations means there is a distinct difference which needs to be observed. I've seen numerous people who are confused by the definition of clean install until you point them to where Apple actually describes the process. To some it means erase your data and start over again. To others it will mean renaming the System folder. I'm sorry if you take it as a bit of condescension, but this is a serious communication issue that exists when describing installations. And only by conforming to Apple's own protocol and stating exactly what is meant by Apple's protocol do you avoid miscommunication.

All I ask is that you use the proper terms so that people don't get confused, and make sure people are aware what the proper terms are.

Apple's own installers in Mac OS 9.2.1 have this issue, and there is no "clean install" in the Mac OS X installer. So someone looking to do it in Mac OS X won't be able to do it the same way. People need to know what Archive and Install and Erase and Install mean so they don't erase their data:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=58176
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=107120
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=151641

[gopher]

To add to that, you say:

Believe it or not, there is a tech world out there beyond Macs, and that world is considerably larger. That world is not going to stop using a well understood term just because of some Apple-speak in OS 8.

Well, if we applied that logic, we could just as easily call the Apple menu the Start menu so the rest of the world would know what we are talking about.

The point is here, Apple's terms do matter for Apple's software. If you want to start applying Windows terms to Apple's software, no one who has used Apple software for a long time will know what you are talking about.

[Jonnie]

Ok! Thanx for the answers. I'll just archive install. Saves lots of time.

[dicklacara]

Dave,
Regardless, I would like to make the point that term was valid as recently as 9.2.1. So it isn't just OS 8. And the fact that Apple keeps on using that term in its knowledgebase when describing Mac OS 9 installations means there is a distinct difference which needs to be observed. I've seen numerous people who are confused by the definition of clean install until you point them to where Apple actually describes the process. To some it means erase your data and start over again. To others it will mean renaming the System folder. I'm sorry if you take it as a bit of condescension, but this is a serious communication issue that exists when describing installations. And only by conforming to Apple's own protocol and stating exactly what is meant by Apple's protocol do you avoid miscommunication.

All I ask is that you use the proper terms so that people don't get confused, and make sure people are aware what the proper terms are.

Apple's own installers in Mac OS 9.2.1 have this issue, and there is no "clean install" in the Mac OS X installer. So someone looking to do it in Mac OS X won't be able to do it the same way. People need to know what Archive and Install and Erase and Install mean so they don't erase their data:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=58176
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=107120
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=151641

Much as I hate to get into a pissing contest, I will.

There is such a thing as context!

This thread is about OS X!

I find it hard (no impossible) to believe that anyone contemplating a "Clean Install" of OS X would think that means to rename the OS9 System Folder and do an update.

C'mon, we're all disappointed that Tiger is not released... but, really.

BTW, I can recall, back in 1956 (when I programmed my first computer) that a "Clean Install" meant any or all of:

1) Toss your old program and Keypunch a new one into punched cards
2) Remove all the patchcords from the control panel and rewire it.
3) Manually enter 1 and 0s by flipping bit switches

Now, that was a "Clean Install"!

[wdlove]

Sounds a little bossy to me..no need for that here. Let's enjoy the waiting game for Tiger ;)

I think that is very good advice. We might as well have fun and enjoy ourselves.

[gopher]

Much as I hate to get into a pissing contest, I will.

There is such a thing as context!

This thread is about OS X!

I find it hard (no impossible) to believe that anyone contemplating a "Clean Install" of OS X would think that means to rename the OS9 System Folder and do an update.

C'mon, we're all disappointed that Tiger is not released... but, really.

BTW, I can recall, back in 1956 (when I programmed my first computer) that a "Clean Install" meant any or all of:

1) Toss your old program and Keypunch a new one into punched cards
2) Remove all the patchcords from the control panel and rewire it.
3) Manually enter 1 and 0s by flipping bit switches

Now, that was a "Clean Install"!

I don't find it hard to believe since I've seen it numerous times in Apple Discussions and elsewhere. And to add to that confusion there are people who are attempting to upgrade to Mac OS X for the first time on machines that had Mac OS X preloaded but boot into Mac OS 9. These same people may find themselves desiring to upgrade to Mac OS X, and see Archive and Install on their installation screen and wonder what that means. There are still people migrating to Mac OS X for the first time, who still have a Mac OS 9 mindset. And since we are talking about the Mac OS, we need to consider that fact and use the terms that could affect any user who might be browsing the forum.

[gopher]

I think that is very good advice. We might as well have fun and enjoy ourselves.

I try to have fun, but then someone comes along and calls my post just a word game, when the method of installation can mean some very serious business. The number of people who think they have to erase and install Mac OS X to avoid problems is amazing. Erase and install is the last option and should only be exercised when no other options exist. Most of the time Archive and Install, or Install Mac OS X for the first time is the only thing you need to do.

I was merely upset that Dave didn't at the time comprehend why it was no word game, and I went to the trouble of spelling it out in the thread. I don't want to have to spell it out more than once.

I too am waiting Tiger's release but am not going to say much it unless it doesn't come out till July.

[bosrs1]

I still think that Tiger hasn't gone GM yet and here is why.
We are a major account for Apple.( We spend millions with them)
We always get the GM builds before the products get announced.
Here is a small list of products we received before they were announced.
Jaguar GM
Panther GM
XSAN GM
And we knew they were the GM's when they were sent to us.
We always get them Fedex within 1 or 2 days tops after they go GM.
We have been promised to get both the Tiger GM and Server GM as soon as they are ready.
And so far we have not been notified that that either has gone GM.
Suffice it to say we do have constant communications with People in the know at Apple and we haven't been told it is GM. Close but not finished yet.
Given our history with Apple over the last 3 or 4 years.
My basic question would be since we got notified of all the above products AND received the known GMs as soon as they were ready why would Apple change their policy with us over this one.

They don't have to have a reason... they're Apple. Plus they're trying to throw the whole world off after the TS scandals. It's gone GM of that I am 100% certain. They are just taking their time in getting it to you. There is no rush on their part.

[dicklacara]

I don't find it hard to believe since I've seen it numerous times in Apple Discussions and elsewhere. And to add to that confusion there are people who are attempting to upgrade to Mac OS X for the first time on machines that had Mac OS X preloaded but boot into Mac OS 9.

... and these people are reading this thread?

These same people may find themselves desiring to upgrade to Mac OS X, and see Archive and Install on their installation screen and wonder what that means. There are still people migrating to Mac OS X for the first time, who still have a Mac OS 9 mindset.


... and one would expect them to read the install docs which explain the options

And since we are talking about the Mac OS, we need to consider that fact and use the terms that could affect any user who might be browsing the forum.

You may feel the need, but I don't -- any more than I feel the need to make sure my posts won't be misunderstood by translation into Urdu or Sanskrit.

Moderators aside, I think it is presumptuous for me (or anyone) to tell others what/how they must post to this forum.

[gopher]

... and these people are reading this thread?



... and one would expect them to read the install docs which explain the options

One would expect, but then we wouldn't have questions like "is a clean install the best way to install Mac OS X?" If everyone who was reading the forums knew what the options were from the installer documentation, we wouldn't be seeing questions like "is a crankshaft the best way to start a car"?


Moderators aside, I think it is presumptuous for me (or anyone) to tell others what/how they must post to this forum.

Agreed on that point. I should be more clear. To criticize me for trying to emphasize the importance of using the right terms is what I object to. Not so much that he is using the wrong terms for it.

[GilGrissom]

Can we now link in the latest news about possible updates to Xsan being developed (1.1), which apparently needs Tiger Server to run.
This could furthermore provide more evidence that Apple are waiting til Tiger Server is done before releasing Tiger client, plus the posts about how some of the applications around Tiger (direct/build in or not) need to be developed or finished before Tiger is released.

Would make sense for Apple to have every possible avenue covered when releasing Tiger, so they can say "yes this works with Tiger...and this...and this...and wait, theres more, this also works too!! And even better, they're all improved and tonnes better!!" etc!

[matticus008]

One would expect, but then we wouldn't have questions like "is a clean install the best way to install Mac OS X?" If everyone who was reading the forums knew what the options were from the installer documentation, we wouldn't be seeing questions like "is a crankshaft the best way to start a car"?


A crankshaft is the only way to start a car ;). But of course you meant a handle on the outside of the car? Maybe? The right terms are very important for clarity, which you've illustrated nicely. People who are using a "clean install" are likely coming from Windows or Linux or Solaris or some other operating system (with a handful coming from OS 9). These people want to know if Erase and Install is the way to go, but they don't know what it's called, because they don't care to memorize Apple's installer wording.

My point is that telling people there is no "clean install" for OS X is extremely misleading. I, for one, thought someone was arguing it was impossible to start over from scratch the first time I came across one of these discussions a week or two ago. There absolutely is a clean install for OS X--the erase and install option. Anyone who would be asking about a clean install should be able to identify the difference between Apple's options pretty easily, or they wouldn't know to ask in the first place.

Apple just made a huge mistake by calling something in OS9 a "clean install" that didn't conform to the rest of computing standards and therefore we have this problematic situation. If there is confusion for people upgrading from OS 9, it's Apple's fault for not using the right terms, not everyone else in the world for not knowing Apple's blunders. Clean install means something to 98% of the market, and so in all probability the question isn't about an OS9-style "clean install," so it's better to say: "Yes, you can use the Erase and Install option in the OS X Installer to start from scratch." It answers the question, is direct, and avoids silly arguments over Apple's mistake.

[gopher]

Yes I meant the handle outside the car!

[matticus008]

Yes I meant the handle outside the car!

Ah, well then you used the wrong term! But I still knew what you meant, even though all standard gas-powered cars still have, use, and start by a crankshaft (in conjunction with a starter motor and flywheel). So someone, like Apple, said the wrong thing, but because the rest of the industry knows what a crankshaft is, we were able to deduce that s/he meant a manual-crank handle and can answer his question--"no, that's a pretty lame and outdated way to start a car and by the way that thing isn't called a crankshaft."

The "no clean install" philosophy would have answered: "yes." Obviously, this doesn't help or answer the real, underlying question.

Regardless, I commend you for being a purist for language. "The right tool for the right job" applies to words, as well. But then again, I am a linguist, at least according to the university :).

[gopher]

Thank you. I try to think like a linguist too, even if I don't have that accreditation. Having taken linguistics in 8th grade, and read "Strunk and White's Elements of Style" I very much appreciate all efforts to be clear and succinct with what one actually means.

[GilGrissom]

Think Secret have now reported on the XSan 1.1 updates and the latest builds of Panther and Tiger. They seem to be certain in themselves in the wording that Tiger (client) is finished and immenant, although obviously we still can't take this as proof and fact, no one can until its actually released. But it can fuel more speculation and provide some more backing behind certain peoples thoughts. They say they are unsure whether Tiger Server will ship with or just after Tiger client, so who knows. The Panther update (10.3.9) is also presumably needed to use QT7.

[Elfin Geekster]

Sunday Morning; still not 10.3.9.

[powerbook911]

Sunday Morning; still not 10.3.9.

Maybe this will be the week, Monday or Tuesday, that we see Tiger and 10.3.9. :) Yay.

[EANx]

Hey, good new about 4/15...


It's CompUSA's Tax Day Midnight Madness Event, so you can enjoy the huge savings on computer equipment even if you can't get Tiger. :D

[powerbook911]

Wouldn't Apple shock us all, if they announced on Monday or Tuesday, with it in-stores on Friday? We'd all be singing!!! :)

[gopher]

Apple has not released an update on a Sunday at least since prior Jaguar's release.

10.3.8 2/9/05 Wednesday
10.3.7 12/15/04 Wednesday
10.3.6 11/5/04 Friday
10.3.5 8/9/04 Monday
10.3.4 5/25/04 Tuesday
10.3.3 3/16/04 Tuesday
10.3.2 12/17/03 Wednesday
10.3.1 11/10/03 Monday
10.2.8 10/3/03 Friday
10.2.6 5/6/03 Tuesday
10.2.5 4/10/03 Thursday
10.2.4 2/13/03 Thursday
10.2.3 12/19/02 Thursday
10.2.2 11/11/02 Monday
10.2.1 9/18/02 Wednesday

So if Apple does release the update today, it would break the pattern of always releasing on a U.S. weekday (Monday through Friday).

[GilGrissom]

Maybe this will be the week, Monday or Tuesday, that we see Tiger and 10.3.9. :) Yay.

I hope so!!

But no doubt false optimism again!!! ah wel!!

COME ON TIGER!!!

[CubaTBird]

wwdc people, its so obvious.. i mean they are touting it on their website! with tiger! eesh! :p

[daveL]

wwdc people, its so obvious.. i mean they are touting it on their website! with tiger! eesh! :p
What else would they tout on their Web site for an upcoming *developer* conference?

[powerbook911]

wwdc people, its so obvious.. i mean they are touting it on their website! with tiger! eesh! :p

Nothing points to Tiger being 2 months away. Tiger will be out within 3 weeks. :) I hope.

[wdlove]

Nothing points to Tiger being 2 months away. Tiger will be out within 3 weeks. :) I hope.

If Tiger doesn't come out within the next two weeks, then it might as well wait till WWDC. After April 26th, I would be able to enjoy the release party. My wife had made plans for the 15th. If the usual two weeks lead time holds, then I could be in trouble.

[Lacero]

It has to be updated this month. Why? Because the iPod has been taken up on Apple's front page for the last 3 months. It's time for something new.

[Zaty]

It has to be updated this month. Why? Because the iPod has been taken up on Apple's front page for the last 3 months. It's time for something new.

It has only been 1 1/2 months since the introduction of the new iPod line. But I agree it's time Apple changed their front page. iBooks are due for an update in April. PMs and iMacs should also be updated in the coming weeks. Regardless if Tiger comes out soon or not until WWDC, iPods won't stay there much longer.

[powerbook911]

If Tiger doesn't come out within the next two weeks, then it might as well wait till WWDC. After April 26th, I would be able to enjoy the release party. My wife had made plans for the 15th. If the usual two weeks lead time holds, then I could be in trouble.

wdlove,

Well, I have my fingers crossed that you'll get to take advantage of those April 15 plans!

[cotton]

I was at the Apple Store in Pasadena getting my PB exchanged when someone asked about when Tiger was coming out. The Apple guy told him that all he could say was that Tiger was coming out in the SUMMER!!

Yeah, I couldn't believe my ears and my heart almost stopped but I'm guessing that the guy really didn't know much and just guessed that it was coming out in the summer. I'm hoping it will be out before the end of April. Cannot wait!

[toti]

It's not a question of wether he knew when Tiger would come out, it's all about him not being allowed to comment on it any further than that what Apple have already made public.

Any ( knowledgable ) comments on dates are a breach of contract ( NDA ) and thus ( mildly ) criminal...

[GilGrissom]

I was at the Apple Store in Pasadena getting my PB exchanged when someone asked about when Tiger was coming out. The Apple guy told him that all he could say was that Tiger was coming out in the SUMMER!!

Yeah, I couldn't believe my ears and my heart almost stopped but I'm guessing that the guy really didn't know much and just guessed that it was coming out in the summer. I'm hoping it will be out before the end of April. Cannot wait!

EEK!! :confused: :confused: :eek: :eek: :mad: :mad:

The next few weeks are crunch time regardless then. We will all know yes or no by then really!!
Dunno if I can wait till WWDC!! if it is out at WWDC it would seem to me that they have been holding onto it, which seems pointless given Apples drive for Tiger. April would make sense...please let it be true!!

[Porchland]

It's not a question of wether he knew when Tiger would come out, it's all about him not being allowed to comment on it any further than that what Apple have already made public.

Any ( knowledgable ) comments on dates are a breach of contract ( NDA ) and thus ( mildly ) criminal...

A breach of an NDA by disclosure of nondisclosable facts is NOT criminal, mildly or otherwise. The breacher is potentially on the hook for whatever damages are provided in the NDA for breach, but it's NOT criminal.

[Porchland]

With Tiger Woods winning the Masters, we should be seeing that sponsorship deal any day now! :p

[bosrs1]

A breach of an NDA by disclosure of nondisclosable facts is NOT criminal, mildly or otherwise. The breacher is potentially on the hook for whatever damages are provided in the NDA for breach, but it's NOT criminal.
Actually it is criminal. It can be considered company theft which is a crime.

[dpclark]

icreate - the best mac mag in the uk is out again tomorow - its main feature is - mac os x 10.4 tiger. Bow this could very easily be a future evaluation review - but normally the mag is released on a thursday I think - read into that what you will. I subscribe so probably wont get my copy for another 3 or four days (dam their distributiors)

[wdlove]

With Tiger Woods winning the Masters, we should be seeing that sponsorship deal any day now! :p

I would rather see Apple spend money on R&D. Tiger doesn't need the celebrity sponsorship money.

[cosmos]

I would rather see Apple spend money on R&D. Tiger doesn't need the celebrity sponsorship money.


Yes, but most things boil down to marketing...

Where would MS be without it?

[kevinstout]

The Apple Store Just went down for maintence!!!

[afd]

Is this new?


http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/ukstore.woa/90801/wo/Is31cAXy9zgh2wQ7yXfpAX8hrE5/0.0.11.1.0.6.21.1.0.1.0.0.0.1.0


Or have i just not noticed it before? Waiting on a PowerBook, torn between wanting it now and wanting to wait for Tiger.

[Jo-Kun]

Is this new?


http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/ukstore.woa/90801/wo/Is31cAXy9zgh2wQ7yXfpAX8hrE5/0.0.11.1.0.6.21.1.0.1.0.0.0.1.0


Or have i just not noticed it before? Waiting on a PowerBook, torn between wanting it now and wanting to wait for Tiger.

yes this is new, last week I looked at the belgian apple store and this: http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/belgiumflstore.woa/91505/wo/AV5Pk7iWD2du2FReku51IieG1AB/0.0.11.1.0.6.21.1.0.1.0.0.0.1.0 wasn't there... now it is...

[GilGrissom]

TIGER TIGER TIGER TIGER TIGER!!!!!!

CHECK APPLE.COM NOW!!!!

TIGER RELEASED IN 17 DAYS!!!

FRIDAY 29TH APRIL 2005 6:00PM!!!

WOW!! Finally happened!!!

And who said it wouldnt be out in April, eh??!! hehe!!!