Damn, I'm pissed [Archive] - MacRumors Forums

F/reW/re

Jan 7, 2002, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by eyelikeart
Originally posted by F/reW/re
No Macintosh abov 1GHz is sad, but tru :(
Stop making those consumer crap and fokus on the old loyal cosumers!

I've got news for u buddy...

without a bigger hold on "consumers," whoever u think they are, Apple will never gain a bigger market share. They need to get through to more people. The average computer user is a Windoze user. If Apple can get even a small percentage of these users to convert, then they will have the foothold to expand and do bigger & better things! Quit thinking narrow-minded and look at the BIG picture here...
Thats not a god reason to don`t care about your long time loyal costumers! It`s just an excuse to make more money!

The reason that I`m pissed of is http://www.apple.com marketing the days in advange! Why make a so big deal out of something we have already seen before?

agreenster

Jan 7, 2002, 03:51 PM

......but what about the G4 towers? I mean, what the hell?

F/reW/re

Jan 7, 2002, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by agreenster
......but what about the G4 towers? I mean, what the hell?
Well, didn`t iPhoto BLOW U AWAY? U can even crop images :D

sorry, i don`t need that, I need power to be blown away!!

rEd Eye

Jan 7, 2002, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by F/reW/re
Originally posted by eyelikeart
Originally posted by F/reW/re
No Macintosh abov 1GHz is sad, but tru :(
Stop making those consumer crap and fokus on the old loyal cosumers!

I've got news for u buddy...

without a bigger hold on "consumers," whoever u think they are, Apple will never gain a bigger market share. They need to get through to more people. The average computer user is a Windoze user. If Apple can get even a small percentage of these users to convert, then they will have the foothold to expand and do bigger & better things! Quit thinking narrow-minded and look at the BIG picture here...
Thats not a god reason to don`t care about your long time loyal costumers! It`s just an excuse to make more money!

The reason that I`m pissed of is http://www.apple.com marketing the days in advange! Why make a so big deal out of something we have already seen before?
Then don't charge 3 times the price of a PC,and people will convert.Duuuh!

eyelikeart

Jan 7, 2002, 04:35 PM

Of course it's about money! Money is what keeps companies in business. But, keep in mind, it's not entirely about money.

How the hell do u think they are going to succeed if they don't branch out and get more customers? iPhoto is a consumer level application to edit photos....it should blow u away that Apple creates these applications and then....get this, gives them away FREE! This is part of the "digital hub" that Apple's creating. No other computer company is doing anything quite like this.

U say that u need power to be blown away, but didn't u mention that u don't even have a computer in the first place?! How could someone who doesn't own a computer complain about needing speed in one? U obviously don't need it that much if u don't even warrant a purpose to have a computer in the first place. Honestly, u should get that big chip off your shoulder....it's not healthy...

blackpeter

Jan 7, 2002, 05:52 PM

They don't know it yet, but Joe & Jane Consumer don't care about processor speed. They've just been conditioned to think they do. Steve's new iMac will 'deprogram' the brainwashed.

And they'll say, "I've got a 2 GIG Pentium. Isn't that, like, the best? Then why can't I burn DVDs? Why can't I have an iPod? I'd love to upload, store, edit, and print my photos all in one place - why can't I? ....Why is it that thing is so small and does all the things I REALLY want it to do with my computer?

hotch

Jan 7, 2002, 06:09 PM

the new iMac has a lust factor circa 6. not 10.

TWISTED

Jan 7, 2002, 06:24 PM

To everyone complaining about the hype:

Hello, McFly...

Apple USED you. Plain and simple. The purpose of hype is to raise awareness, and by getting your panties in a wad over the last week you helped Apple accomplish this. They suckered you. Plain and simple.

Apple isn't here to cater to your inflated egos. The company does not revolve around you. They are a business, who above all else, needed to upgrade it's four year old consumer line. If you ever wondered why they are losing market share, you could look to the outdated iMac line. That all changed today.

Open your eyes and grow up.

Falleron

Jan 7, 2002, 07:07 PM

Lets have a bit of perpective here!

1. The new imac is a good improvement on the last model. Do people agree with that? Its a different shape but I think it will grow on people. It has on me.

2. The offer on apple lcd monitors ends on 31st January which probably means that we will get updated powermacs in febuary! We can wait a month cant we?

I was in the market for a new tower so I am a bit pissed but there is nothing we can do about it. We do know that there is are loads of features waiting to go into the new powermac!

Eg. USB2, Firewire2, DDRAM, faster bus, geforce 4, G5 etc I think you will agree that a machine with all this is worth waiting for?

mischief

Jan 7, 2002, 07:15 PM

For many of these sad fools It's about Apple not making an expandable, free, multi-processor, multi-terahertz machine that updates itself, both HW and SW every day. Oh yeah, and only if THEY have the only one.

eyelikeart

Jan 7, 2002, 08:29 PM

it's a damned shame u can't always get through to everyone...

kaneda

Jan 7, 2002, 09:06 PM

More than half people in here have the urge for more power. We all disappointed that the new towers weren't upgraded. The imac looks nice...but I don't go for style. I go for power!! the faster the better...I am sure the new imac will make a lot of money for Apple...but I am sure they will make more money if they upgraded their towers.

chewbaccapits

Jan 7, 2002, 09:26 PM

Maybe Apple is giving us teaspoons of its line...My understanding is that AMD was trying to steal the show today by introducing its new Mhz rating and junk...Oh and I believe Intel wanted some action aswell, right? Good things will come, guys, don't worry...Apple really is trying to expand it's consumer base...Was I a little disappointed...Sure, but by reading the posts, I'm starting to see the plan...Don't be closed minded, just to be a dick.

whitegold

Jan 7, 2002, 09:29 PM

There are pluses and minuses to the keynote, I think.

The additional power is great for OSX, and getting everyone on that "new thang" is important to Apple. The screens are good, and the way they've done it is quite nice.

Personally, I wouldn't get one, but my mum would love it. If I'd let her have a Mac, anyway.

Those are the people apple need to get. The people who just want a computer. Basic needs. Consumer machine... mmm pretty.

On the down side, it really does look like a lamp : )

Unfortunately the price is too high. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's expensive for what you get. It's pretty good value considering what you get. BUT it's pretty expensive for a computer. The addition of a G4 and particularly flat panels comes at a real price, and that price may cause joe and jane to look for a less pretty machine.

I agree with RedEye to a large degree. Value for money is nice. But sometimes there's value to keeping things cheaper.

For the price of a new iMac I could get a top end Athlon with a 19" monitor. But hey, that is just MY needs.

iPhotos rock. I think some parts of it are fairly irrelevant. In many ways I was reminded of Windows, and how superiority often can be invented by making things seem harder than they really are. (Seriously people, how hard is it to put an AOL CD in and make it work?) Windows XP has a lot of the advantages of iPhotos, for example. The "chain of pain"? what ********. You just go to the digital camera like it's a hard drive. It opens automatically on connecting. Browse using the thumbnail view, or built in image viewer. You can even ORDER PRINTS ONLINE! Did Microsoft copy this one?

If you use ACDSEE, the new version also gives you some of the other features, metadata addition and album creation and storage.

Personally I do so much digital media stuff daily that I abandoned the newest version in favour of an older version. Small fast, less features.

Oh, and you can crop in acdsee, too. Hell, you could crop in LView (1993).

That being said iPhoto is a really nice addition to OSX. Great for consumers. Has some features I found very impressive, like dynamic resizing of thumbnails.

All that being said, I think that one thing I really question is apples whole digital hub concept.

Center of my digital lifestyle? I don't have a digital lifestyle. I'm still having trouble with my old analogue lifestyle! I don't HAVE a digital camera, still or video. I don't WANT to make digital videos. I don't have an mp3 player.

I would personally question this assumption that within the next few months everyone will be taking mp3s from their mp3 player make background music to use in the DVD they're making of the footage they just shot with their DV camera.

Sure, it's nice that you can do it. Though to be completely honest, it's not like it's that hard on a PC (except for the burning, that is).

I personally am not sure that they're right about the direction to take there. I think most people still just want a computer to do... you know... computer things on it.

Games, anyone? The addition of GF2MX cards is great, particularly on a machine limited to 1024x768 anyway. But there needs to be games to play on them. They're getting some, but just not enough.

The desktop is next for revision. That was what I really wanted to see. I'll still be interested to take a look.

It's going to have to be good. Some of apple's markets (digital video, graphic design, etc) are VERY performance driven, and apple is losing ground there with the stagnant performance of the current architectures.

Anyway, enough from me...

lfrey1

Jan 7, 2002, 11:24 PM

What are you talking about?

Look, guys, I KNOW these people. I work with Joe User every day. They don't get it. They use WinSUXASS machines because THEY THINK EVERYBODY ELSE DOES. It's that simple. Bill Gates and his motley pack of thieves have NEVER innovated. EVER. The fact the XP is "easier to use" is the very reason why this machine HAD to come from Apple.

Piss me off.

I am tired of the platform war. It's been decades. I'm tired of CHEAP **** being pawned off as equipment by hack organizations such as Compaq and the like.

Let a "normal" user get a freaky error message with a bunch of error codes in it, and watch them freak the hell out. Tell them to go deal with their friggin' BIOS file to deal with the fact that the stupid machine can't recognize a hard drive.

Then tell me that Apple doesn't get it. Then tell me that "power" is the key. *********, I'm sorry. I've just heard SO MUCH CRAP in the last few days, I just can't take it anymore.

As for graphic designers, film makers, etc. They're STILL on the mac platform. We're fine. We love our Ti Books, we love our G4 Towers. We need this company to SURVIVE and to INSPIRE us. If any design switches platforms, I argue that designer HAS NO SOUL for things that make people excited about their life.

Get off the damn power bandwagon, PLEASE!

This machine is revolutionary. This strategy is evidentally so right on that Dr. Asshole Gates has to copy it.

Enough. Let's support our platform for a change, instead of being a bunch of pricks with unrealistic expecations. Go Steve.

eroscott

Jan 7, 2002, 11:46 PM

[The new iMac is Fabulous! So is the larger iBook and iPhoto, and everything else they do next year and the year after that... BUT...]

Apple HAS ALWAYS BEEN ON THE CUTTING EDGE OF OBSOLETISM... EVERY SINGLE MAC I'VE EVER BOUGHT BECAME OBSOLETE IN LESS THAN A YEAR...and now its even WORSE, cause it ain't just the clock speed any more...

*** I'm tired of always having "last year's" OUTDATED Mac!!!!!! ***

I REALLY WISH STEVE would support "US" OLD HARDWARE USERS (dual USB iBook here) with UPGRADE PATHS...

+++
I JUST WANT TO BE ABLE TO "ADD" the SuperDrive to my "old" iBook... Is that so much to ask?
+++

Personally, they've lost me... There's no point in getting caught up in all the hype or going to MacWorld, since they are ONLY SELLING TO PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE A MAC ALREADY?!?!?!??!?

reyesg4

Jan 8, 2002, 12:37 AM

WTF are you talking about. When has the iMac ever, and I mean EVER not used last years parts! If you are looking for bleeding edge, the Powermacs are your ONLY choice. Listen, I have a G3 B&W tower running OSX on a 350Mhz G3 6 gig with dvd player. It was the second fastest Mac in the world when I purchased it for $2000 (remember when Powermac prices were cheaper?) If I wanted it to be even close to the specs on an iMac, I would need:

LCD Video card=$200
Superdrive=$500+
500mhz G4 upgrade = $400
60 Gig HD=$150
PCI ATA card(because of the damn ROM bug in the BW)=$120
LCD monitor from apple=$500
Thank goodness I already have 100mhz bus and speakers.

The grand total is $1,870! Nuff said, but I will continue.
If you own anything less than last years G4, it will be cheaper to buy a new iMac if you need the features. Its either that or wait a year until the Rev2 Powermac G5's are out.

Normal Guy

Jan 8, 2002, 01:28 AM

Since most of you seem to be missing Apple's underlying motives here, allow me to enlighten you. The economy is in a recession blah blah blah. Doesn't really matter. Recessions of our day are marketing tools. What apple is trying to do is migrate the desktop computer. Those of you who are mad about the iMac looking more like a consumer electonic than a workstation are right. It is more of a consumer electronic. Those of you who think apple is heading into the future are also right. There's only so much updating the pc is going to take before it isn't a pc anymore. Apple's new strategy isn't inovation like steve is saying. It's migration of the desktop. If the desktop is going to survive it's going to have to become something else. The new iMac isn't a pc, it's a consumer electonic device. Look at the facts, apple makes the os and hardware and everything is self contained. Nah-sayers, as much as a agree how stupid it looks, it is functional. I'm sure I'll be cutting a check for one soon.

F/reW/re

Jan 8, 2002, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by eyelikeart
Of course it's about money! Money is what keeps companies in business. But, keep in mind, it's not entirely about money.

How the hell do u think they are going to succeed if they don't branch out and get more customers? iPhoto is a consumer level application to edit photos....it should blow u away that Apple creates these applications and then....get this, gives them away FREE! This is part of the "digital hub" that Apple's creating. No other computer company is doing anything quite like this.

U say that u need power to be blown away, but didn't u mention that u don't even have a computer in the first place?! How could someone who doesn't own a computer complain about needing speed in one? U obviously don't need it that much if u don't even warrant a purpose to have a computer in the first place. Honestly, u should get that big chip off your shoulder....it's not healthy...
lol @ U :)
I use Mac even tought I don`t own one my self. I do design and webdesign and I need power! When Apple says this MWSF is gonna be way beyond all rumors I expect something huge! But all I get is an iMAc that has been predicted for about 1 year. + some SW that really doesn`t do anything for me.

Stop the stupid marketing so you wont dissapoint som many Maclovers again!

MacNut

Jan 8, 2002, 02:34 AM

For those of you complaining about power I am still running a pre g3 as my primary computer "power mac 6500" with 225 mhz. It has a 3 gig hard drive and 32 megs of ram. im running 8.5 because if i go any higher my computer will crash. if anyone is in need of a new mac it should be me. so why should i buy a g4 now if in a month or 2 i can get a g5 ive waiting this long so what is another 2 months going to hurt right well i have been saying that for the last 6 months and no g5 i cant wait much longer because i cant get any software or hardware for that matter. so apple is trying to get people to buy computers but maybe they should make the computer that i want to buy so why should i spend money on a computer that will be old news in a month or two "G4" i want the next best thing even if it is only for atleast 6 months but im not going to settle for second best "imac" if apple wants my money they better deliver the goods im looking for and right now im looking for a g5 that will keep me going for another 5 years.
I could have gone to a windoze but i will never travel to the dark side long live macs even if they dont hit a gig but that isnt to say apple should try atleast i mean it would be nice but hell anything is better than 225 mhz

[Edited by MacNut on 01-08-2002 at 02:36 AM]

rEd Eye

Jan 8, 2002, 03:37 AM

Well I,m disapointed myself. I need to upgrade my G4 400 tower,and I have no use for an "imac".However the new imac Is a great computer for those looking for a gimmicy powerhouse.
I could go off about how you're paying for a stupid designer product,not a machine with the practical in mind.It seems to me that apple is paying way to much attention to novelty items,and looking pretty,and not enough time keeping up with pro consumer needs+raw horsepower,in an ugly cheap box.I also think that it is ridiculous that macs are so "disposable"I already have a G4 box,CD-DVD ROM,Zip,Hard drive,etc etc..So why the hell do they want me to buy it all over again when all I need is the motherboard and processor?But I will,cause I'm a sucker like the rest of us.
But not this round.Thanx apple,I'm $$$richer $$$ cause you havent given me anything yet that I'm willing to spend money on in this last two years.
Give me a 1+Ghz G4-G5 using DDR RAM w/266(mininum)system bus,and my cash is yours!
Till then,it's just me and my AMD 1333mhz (which,btw,kicks on my G4 400mhz rusty antique grinder box).Too bad the G4 cases weren't clear,I could make a nice aquarium out of it!

HappyDo!

Jan 8, 2002, 04:14 AM

Just wondering about all the people whom are so hungry for more power. What are you going to use it for? My Aftereffects, FCP, Cinema4D, photoshop are all running fine...I do motion graphics for a living, and i will always buy the fastest tower...when it comes out...but right now i'm not complaining. If you want to play games buy a playstation2;-)

fecker

Jan 8, 2002, 04:18 AM

iPhoto to me looks alot like the software that comes with the Cannon digital cameras, whihc is excellent. I wonder if Apple have bought it from them as Cannon have not released an update to it for a long time.

Kethoticus

Jan 8, 2002, 05:01 AM

"Just wondering about all the people whom are so hungry for more power. What are you going to use it for? My Aftereffects, FCP, Cinema4D, photoshop are all running fine...I do motion graphics for a living, and i will always buy the fastest tower...when it comes out...but right now i'm not complaining. If you want to play games buy a playstation2;-)"

I had an AE project at home recently. The damn thing took several days to render on my B&W 350MHz G3. On a 1.4GHz G4, it would probably have taken around a day. Big, huge difference.

Not only that, but as fans of the platform, we simply WANT to see it succeed, we want to see it kick its competitions' asses. As it stands, the Mac has LOST market share in the past year or two, losing what it gained from the original iMac (~3% jumping to ~5% and back down to ~3% again). Our platform's in trouble with such small--and shrinking--market share. And of course, there's the bragging rights.

But c'mon man, stop defending Apple. Do you honestly believe that the new iMac goes where no PC has gone before? It really doesn't. Does it go way beyond the rumors sites? Nuh uh. There were no earth-shattering announcements made, much as Apple led us to believe would be coming. I refuse to defend Apple and not whine and not bitch and be happy that Apple's done what they did. Some of you guys have more faith in a greedy, self-absorbed capitalist with delusions of God-hood (but in actuality is just a 21st century Ed Wood), rather than in God Himself. Pretty amazing. In fact, many of you apologists have put the platform and company into the status of a religion (probably as a substitute for the real thing). Pretty pathetic.

The point here is that Apple goofed up--for first time, again. heh heh... But really, they lied to us. Big time. The show was nowhere near their pre-show hype. I hope I eat my words and Apple makes more announcements on Tuesday. But I'm not overly hopeful.

Gelfin

Jan 8, 2002, 05:15 AM

Originally posted by rEd Eye
Goofy gimmics have a very short lifespan,and I think Apple screwed up big on this one!

Yeah, goofy gimmicks like a one-piece curvy translucent computer in bright fruit colors, right?

The problem here isn't with Apple's ability to innovate, it's with some of you guys' ability to recognize innovation when you see it. You are disappointed because Apple didn't "blow you away" by giving you the same thing you've already seen, only faster. Yawn.

And I should mention that in all your whining and moaning that Santa Jobs brought you the wrong toy, you've missed the significance of the lack of new towers: The G5s are a lot closer than you think. Doing a trivial speed bump of the towers would be a useless gesture. I believe the G5s really weren't quite ready, but they're close enough that Steve could have demonstrated one. He didn't want to detract from the star of the show, the iMac. And honestly, where the hell were your expectations if that's not enough?

Look at the situation Apple's got us in now: The newly announced consumer device gives performance nearly at parity with the professional line, but for around a third of the price. Do you think that's a situation Apple wants to be in? Of course not. The only reason NOT to give us speedbumped G4s is if the G5s are so close as to make a speedbump ridiculous.

My prediction is that G5s will be announced and shipping before the low-end iMacs start shipping in March, probably in a plain old Quicksilver case, so you don't have to have anything imaginitive in your home if you really don't want to.

Falleron

Jan 8, 2002, 05:21 AM

One problem with the imac! The only way to get one with a 800Mhz G4 is to buy the superdrive model, which for me I have no use for. I however do have use for the extra 100MHz.

Ryu-chan

Jan 8, 2002, 05:33 AM

Originally posted by F/reW/re
No Macintosh abov 1GHz is sad, but tru :(
Stop making those consumer crap and fokus on the old loyal cosumers!

and of course, the signature:

No computer at all (Don`t have the money)

Look Bud,

Can't even afford a computer?? Why are you even complaining that something you obviously don't have the clout to fork out for hasn't appeared - bitching about something so awesome that just may one day be within your financial reach... GET A JOB PAL!

F/reW/re

Jan 8, 2002, 05:47 AM

Originally posted by Ryu-chan
[QUOTE]Originally posted by F/reW/re
No Macintosh abov 1GHz is sad, but tru :(
Stop making those consumer crap and fokus on the old loyal cosumers!

and of course, the signature:

No computer at all (Don`t have the money)

Look Bud,

Can't even afford a computer?? Why are you even complaining that something you obviously don't have the clout to fork out for hasn't appeared - bitching about something so awesome that just may one day be within your financial reach... GET A JOB PAL! [/QUOTE)

#1 I have a job
#2 I use Mac when I work (the company buys the machines)
#3 To buy a DP G4 800MHz i need to work more than 4 months without using money on anything else. (no screen)
#4 If I use the same amount of money on Wintel HW I get 2 high end PC`s with scanners, printers and 19" screens!
#5 When the G5 arrives (if it will) I will get more power for less money. And thats what i need!

[Edited by F/reW/re on 01-08-2002 at 06:18 AM]

whitegold

Jan 8, 2002, 06:34 AM

I dig the guy who says to "end the platform war", while similarly referring to it as "winsuxass". Brilliant. What are you saying? All windows users should bend over and never comment BACK?!

Funny thing you have to understand about windows users. We don't care. Seriously. Just don't really care. I'm sorry to say this, because I really like a lot of apple's evolutions.

What I am is interested in technology. I like to see the innovations apple come up with. Sometimes they eventually come to REAL computers, and that's always interesting.</flamebait>

Seriously, though, on the issue of power, I have to say, what the hell are you talking about? Power isn't everything.

It's the only thing.

All computers are is number crunchers. More crunching, more numbers, more performance. Better computer. It's that simple.

What are we using that computer power for? Photoshop. Running 3d modelling programs. Running a dozen apps in a highly intensive environment like XP or OSX.

Everything you want your operating system to do requires power. Speech recognition and voice control, Graphical frills such as transparency effects and dropdshadows, fades and scrolls. They all take power. Without having the extra power of something like a G4, those things just don't work well. You seen OSX on a G3? Ain't great.

There is no such thing as fast enough on a computer. More power means more features, faster and more efficiently.

Apple knows this. Their relative hardware stagnation is something they're struggling to overcome, but they ARE trying.

As for people who are complaining that their hardware is old when they just bought it. Welcome to computers. You have to buy what you want to fill your needs NOW. The iMac you bought couldn't be upgraded. If you didn't know that then, you should have, and if you did, what are you complaining about?

whitegold

Jan 8, 2002, 06:56 AM

lfrey1

"The fact the XP is "easier to use" is the very reason why this machine HAD to come from Apple."

What does that even mean?

"Let a "normal" user get a freaky error message with a bunch of error codes in it, and watch them freak the hell out. Tell them to go deal with their friggin' BIOS file to deal with the fact that the stupid machine can't recognize a hard drive."

Agreed. But your point about Bios is silly. Bios is ugly to a mac person, but is a sign of the true power of PCs.

See you can PICK THE MOTHERBOARD. How's that for Kooky!

Pick the CPU, choose the motherboard, decide what TYPE of ram to use. Pick a hard drive. Decide a configuration as you wish, change it as you wish.

Or just buy it from the catalogue. Whatever. The "made from bits" nature of PCs is both their blessing and their curse. In my opinion it's the chief reason for windows instability issues. If Apple hold configs in it's viselike grip, I'd like to see how THEY went making an OS stable.

"As for graphic designers, film makers, etc. They're STILL on the mac platform. "

Did I mention that myself and every other graphic and web designer I know uses PCs? Particularly web design. Why? Because that's what our audiences use. And because power for price, they're better value.

This machine is revolutionary. This strategy is evidentally so right on that Dr. Asshole Gates has to copy it.

Where's the revolutionary? I see a Luxo Lamp with an LCD screen that raises the price to beyond it's own target market. And what makes it such a part of this grand revolution you're staging over there? It's got some USB and firewire ports, and some software that lets you use stuff you plug in. Big friggin' deal.

How come microsoft adding good automatic support for digital cameras is suddenly a copy of Apple's strategy? Did Bill take a sneak peek and go "Oh my god! MP3 players! Wow, lets put usb ports so people can plug them in!"

"Enough. Let's support our platform for a change, instead of being a bunch of pricks with unrealistic expecations."

Support the platform when it's right. Question it when it's wrong. This kind of slavish zealotism and "ra ra" attitude is just foolish. Stop critisizing people for questioning the almighty jobs.

Grow up.

Brad147

Jan 8, 2002, 07:14 AM

It seems that there are many professional users here that are looking for more power. So, I assume they need a "professional" computer like a high end POWERMAC or even a G5 that will be very soon. Or even the PC's they find so powerfull if any of those macs are not enough...

Personally, I'm just a basic consumer. My computer is at home and is there just for fun. I have an iMac rev A 233 and it was perfect until I bought a DV Camera and until OSX. Indeed, since 6 months I wanted to buy a new computer to have fun with my DV camera, burn DVD's, etc.

And the new Imac is just perfect for this. It's powerful enough, not too expensive, it burns DVD's, play music... Anything I need and more (the unexpected 800 mhz G4).

What do you think Apple is looking for ? Few peoples always complainning that it's too slow and that never buy the powerful models. Or 6,000,000 people looking for fun at home and buying an iMac like I will ? If you can not find the right answer to this question, just do like it's said a few posts before: grow up !

F/reW/re

Jan 8, 2002, 07:39 AM

Originally posted by whitegold
lfrey1
Did I mention that myself and every other graphic and web designer I know uses PCs? Particularly web design. Why? Because that's what our audiences use. And because power for price, they're better value.

Where's the revolutionary? I see a Luxo Lamp with an LCD screen that raises the price to beyond it's own target market. And what makes it such a part of this grand revolution you're staging over there? It's got some USB and firewire ports, and some software that lets you use stuff you plug in. Big friggin' deal.

Wonder how many Designers/Webdesigners you know. Can`t me that many . .
Most graphic designer use MAc, but in web they use more and more Win, but I think this will all change when OSX becomes standar! Using Illu, Photoshop, Premiere on a Wintel is digging ure own grave, with no hands.

People who work with audio prefer Mac all the way! No doubt!

THe revolution with the new iMac is it makes LCD a standar screen, DVDburner for homeusers and all normal people get all their programs they need for free!

Last year I studie Multimedia. I was the only one using Mac. First half year I had a PC. Most of the time I didn`t have a machine to use. It had to be fixed all the time.
Secound half year I got a Mac. I think Illustrator crashed on me 3 times in 6 months. Photoshop never crashed. FinalCut never. (iExplorer crashed a lot)

It was fun beeing the only one with a Mac with a lot of wintel users. They screamed and went home becuse of their crappy wintel machins with crappy windows. Donno how many times I had to download AudioGrabber for the girl next to me. She never learned how to get a audiotrack from a CD on to her computer!

Did some testing. My G4 400MHz vs. P3 966MHz. Photoshop testing. P3 looked like a joke . .
Quake 3 worked better to :)

rEd Eye

Jan 8, 2002, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by HappyDo!
Just wondering about all the people whom are so hungry for more power. What are you going to use it for? My Aftereffects, FCP, Cinema4D, photoshop are all running fine...I do motion graphics for a living, and i will always buy the fastest tower...when it comes out...but right now i'm not complaining. If you want to play games buy a playstation2;-)

MMMMMM...64 audio tracks,6 reverbs,8 delays,2flangers,31 compressors,another 15 misc FX,multiple soft synths,and be able to edit in realtime while listening etc etc.That's what I need it for.Games are good too,but I have my "PeeCee" for that.
Answer your question?

F/reW/re

Jan 8, 2002, 07:49 AM

Originally posted by Brad147
What do you think Apple is looking for ? Few peoples always complainning that it's too slow and that never buy the powerful models. Or 6,000,000 people looking for fun at home and buying an iMac like I will ?
We need more Power becuse the new software demands it! If Apple can`t deliver Powerful machines, proffs will start using Wintel instead!

F/reW/re

Jan 8, 2002, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by HappyDo!
Just wondering about all the people whom are so hungry for more power. What are you going to use it for? My Aftereffects, FCP, Cinema4D, photoshop are all running fine...I do motion graphics for a living, and i will always buy the fastest tower...when it comes out...but right now i'm not complaining. If you want to play games buy a playstation2;-)
Needed 1GB RAM on the PowerMac 500MHz to make it run smooth. Some of us makes larger images that 2x2 pxl. Resise a large image takes time on a slow G4.

It`s not fun to use 12GB of my HD for RAM :(

atomwork

Jan 8, 2002, 08:14 AM

Some newbies here or kids here in this forum may happy with the great iMac. But lets talk right here. Many designers are pissed that we didn't got a power machine.

Fact is also that the new iMac is a great deal but not a powermachine. It has not even a huge display. The G4 800 is very nice and great. But the release and the hype from apple is this time a shame for the hardcore fans.

I feel as a mac addict left alone. A new baby mac for the crowd and no beast for us. I want the G5 now. In fact: I am mega pissed to see the apple store now with a price compare. Damn, couldn't they then not at least bring down the prices from the rest of the apple sortiment. Its a smack in the face to see that i still have to pay for a dual 800 and the cinema display 6500.....

abe

Jan 8, 2002, 08:34 AM

Maybe the G5 was just too early to be released ... anyway.

As a pro consumer I would have been satisfied with an "Apollo-speed-bumped" tower mac...

I will definitly NOT buy an actual tower because it does not deliver up-to-date pro hardware:

No DDR-RAM
No 266 MHz motherboard
No High-speed IDE-Controller
No GHz Processors

And please don't tell me about the superdrive, I really don't need it ...

lfrey1

Jan 8, 2002, 08:43 AM

How many web designers do I know? Plenty. I'll start with the 10 that work for me. I'll continue to the 300 that I've trained on MACS. I'll continue with numerous colleagues that I know from all over the country.

Web "designers" (I don't think you know the word, visuals are cross-platform) have not switched. Those of us who went to real college, and not a two- or -one year school DO NOT TRAIN OR USE WINDOWZE MACHINES. It's that simple.

Besides. THIS MACHINE IS NOT FOR PROS. Is that not clear?

Jeeze.

As for worship of the almighty Steve, I don't. He's just a CEO who heads a company who makes a product. A product that we all thing is superior, a product that we all think has had and continues to have more potential than anything else out there.

But I will say this...I admire Gates even less. Fraud. Thief. Bastard. Got away with murder in antitrust court. A shame.

No, I don't disagree with the criticisms of OSX for speed, I don't disagree with our mHz speed problems. Fine.

I do disagree, absolutely, with the notion that this product "sucks" or that you are all disappointed because Apple won't play your game.

Marvenp

Jan 8, 2002, 09:42 AM

Yeah sure Apple might convert new people over to the Apple way of doing things with this cute little device but what about us power users. I personally was hyped about the thought that Apple might give me a machine over 1ghz to render my Final Cut Pro movies on. And with the way Apple purposely taunted us, I feel we were totally let down. I'm not saying anything good or bad about the iMac itself, I'm just saying that Apple is turning into the boy who cried wolf. I think Apple lost a lot of respect from people who do more than just check thier e-mail, type Word documents and ocassionally dilly dally with making an iMovie.
Their marketing scheme caused us to expect more, and in thier own words, "much more". If it hadn't been for the way they built it up, I think the iMac would have been much better recieved.

There is nothing wrong with going after a bigger consumer market, but you don't do so at the expense losing your core customers. That's just bad business.And as I've said many times before, Apple may be great computer people but they're terrible businessmen. That type of marketing warrants more than just a single product release and no I haven't forgot about iPhoto, but at this point, I really don't care about it.

Doraemon

Jan 8, 2002, 09:52 AM

F/reW/re (and others), you keep saying you wanted more power. Well, if we had seen more power would that have been any good for Apple? No. And let me tell you why. It's because people like you (no offence, but your signature tells) cannot afford such a computer. An iMac is affordable (ok, the new line is a bit expensive). And people are going to buy it. And that's what matters to Apple. You keep saying that Apple should have created a product for the Mac faithful. I'm sorry for waking you from your dream, but that's not what makes Apple earn money. I've been a Mac fan for some 12 years now and I tell you it is nonsense to ask for a product that makes us few go WOW, but that does not appeal to the masses. And if we want Apple to continue great computers we'll have to accept that it has to sell its computer to a large quantity of people and therefore has to make compromises.
And the iMac is the perfect cosumer computer and it even got better! G4 power and the ability to burn your own DVD! That's the stuff the consumer are interested in. And to even have a fancy 15" LCD screen is even better. They don't care about G4, G5, 800 MHz or 1 GHz. If you show them what they can do with the new iMac they are going to want one. And that's all that matters.
Besides, I believe a lot of Mac faithful will acknowledge the features of the iMac for this price! It's a great value and if I was to buy a computer now I'd go for the iMac instead of a G4 tower. Who cares about expandability? The standard consumer doesn't!

Apple did a great job! And since the iMac is now G4 powered we are definitely going to see the PowerMac G5 soon!

Oh, and one last thing. I think we should all lower our expectations. I mean if we expect Apple to introduce a super-new-super-fast-super-computer that is much better and completely re-designed from its predecessor we will of course be disappointed!

I am happy with what Apple released yesterday.
Keep up the good work, Apple!

whitegold

Jan 8, 2002, 10:07 AM

Personally I DON'T think it sucks. I think they made some choices that I don't agree with, but all in all it's a good evolution (if not revolution) of an important part of a company's product line.

And yes, I'm a pro. And no, the iMac wasn't built for me. Hence I won't be getting one.

What I DO think is that it's a pity they haven't upped the Pro levels of hardware, but that's doubtless on the way.

The problem I have is with the attitude that YOU began. I have a problem with Mac Zealots who cannot accept that there is validity to the PC based system.

People here talk about their "crappy peecees with their crappy windoze". Why? What's the big deal? I have windows. I have a PC. How often does it crash?

NEEEEVEER!

The apple way, both the mini zealots in places like this, and the head zealot whose keynote we watched all do the same thing: Spin and market.

Guys, you're users, not marketters. You don't have to take the same lines. It's just a computer.

How hard is it to get onto the internet with a PC. EXACTLY the same as an iMac. How hard is it to setup that confusing PC jumble? Exactly the same as a G4. How hard is it to check your email on a PC? Exactly the same as OSX.

Stop spouting the usual meaninless assumptions that everything is SOOOOOO hard on a PC, and so unreliable. Apple's line for ages now has been to make everything look so bad in PC land. Truth is XP offers many of the benefits of OSX, including stability and comparable (or better) ease of use.

Both platforms have advantages and disadvantages. Stop fighting for the cause. There doesn't have to BE a cause.

"A product that we all think is superior, a product that we all think has had and continues to have more potential than anything else out there."

Except it's not. Not in every way. PCs are better in some ways. Broader software support, wider range of hardware, better access to drivers, much better games support. More powerful processors(?), greater range of configuration choices, vastly cheaper, more support on online services (online banking, etc), easier access to cheap technical support, predictable hardware.

While some of those things are two edged swords for PCs they are still valid. Some are critical factors.

Yes it has potential. More than most because there's 95% of the population yet to be shown the "light".

Don't get me wrong. I support apple. I wouldn't have gotten up at 2am to watch the keynote otherwise.

I think the iMac is an interesting product, though I have certain reservations.

Some of your comments, like the college **** I will ignore. IT college training is worth jack **** compared to your experience on the job.

Uh, whatever... done... bored...

F/reW/re

Jan 8, 2002, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by whitegold
And yes, I'm a pro. And no, the iMac wasn't built for me.

How hard is it to setup that confusing PC jumble? Exactly the same as a G4. How hard is it to check your email on a PC? Exactly the same as OSX.

What kind of pro thing are you doing?

We all know that a MAc is easier to set up than a Wintel. Wintel and Photoshop, Illustrator just doesn`t work together! You have to be carful so if wont crash. I cant use the filters I want because the PC might crash if I do. That is surly making my design less good!

tmx590

Jan 8, 2002, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by F/reW/re
Originally posted by eyelikeart
Of course it's about money! Money is what keeps companies in business. But, keep in mind, it's not entirely about money.

How the hell do u think they are going to succeed if they don't branch out and get more customers? iPhoto is a consumer level application to edit photos....it should blow u away that Apple creates these applications and then....get this, gives them away FREE! This is part of the "digital hub" that Apple's creating. No other computer company is doing anything quite like this.

U say that u need power to be blown away, but didn't u mention that u don't even have a computer in the first place?! How could someone who doesn't own a computer complain about needing speed in one? U obviously don't need it that much if u don't even warrant a purpose to have a computer in the first place. Honestly, u should get that big chip off your shoulder....it's not healthy...
lol @ U :)
I use Mac even tought I don`t own one my self. I do design and webdesign and I need power! When Apple says this MWSF is gonna be way beyond all rumors I expect something huge! But all I get is an iMAc that has been predicted for about 1 year. + some SW that really doesn`t do anything for me.

Stop the stupid marketing so you wont dissapoint som many Maclovers again!

God, I hope that you are not really a web developer... with such a bad case of illiteracy, that is a scary thought... ALTHOUGH, I suppose if you were really a good developer, you would have enough money to buy a computer... AND if you were a good designer you would understand the motivation behind MARKETING campaigns... This is true, right?

F/reW/re

Jan 8, 2002, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Doraemon
F/reW/re (and others), you keep saying you wanted more power. Well, if we had seen more power would that have been any good for Apple? No. And let me tell you why. It's because people like you (no offence, but your signature tells) cannot afford such a computer.

Oh, and one last thing. I think we should all lower our expectations. I mean if we expect Apple to introduce a super-new-super-fast-super-computer that is much better and completely re-designed from its predecessor we will of course be disappointed!

Feel like I`m on repeat here ->
#2 I use Mac when I work (the company buys the machines)
#3 To buy a DP G4 800MHz i need to work more than 4 months without using money on anything else. (no screen)
#4 If I use the same amount of money on Wintel HW I get 2 high end PC`s with scanners, printers and 19" screens!
#5 When the G5 arrives (if it will) I will get more power for less money. And thats what i need!

Make a speedboost and so I don`t have to buy the most expensive off them. The 2x800MHz is way to overpriced.

Lower our expectations??? That`s what I have been saying the whole time!
Apple made my expectations!! Get ready to be blown away, Beyon all rumors!

If Apple didn`t make me belive a DP G4 1.4GHZ / G5 was comming I wouldn`t have been disappointed! So now I know, don`t trust Apple`s marketing, it`s just a lot off jiggle!

APple, I don`t care what you say anymore, I won`t belive it until I see it!!

Marvenp

Jan 8, 2002, 10:35 AM

You people can argue forever about how good or bad you think the iMac is but there is just one glaring point that I don't think anyone can dismiss. Apple built this trade show up to be the "be all to end all" just to release a product we already have, in a smaller package. I personally would rather have a dual 800Mhz G4 Tower with a Cinema Display. After having the luxury of using a 22" screen (I have two), it would be hard for me to get excited about anything less.

And really except for the ability to burn DVDs this damn thing is no better than a PowerBook G4 (which also has a 15" LCD display, looks better, and is portable). The difference between 667Mhz and 700 or 800Mhz probably won't be that signifacant when running intensive apps like FCP.

My gripe is not with the product but with the way the product was introduced. It is NOT and I don't care how you try to defend it, the groundbreaking, awe inspiring, way beyond the rumor sites, product Apple built it up to be!

F/reW/re

Jan 8, 2002, 10:40 AM

God, I hope that you are not really a web developer... with such a bad case of illiteracy, that is a scary thought... ALTHOUGH, I suppose if you were really a good developer, you would have enough money to buy a computer... AND if you were a good designer you would understand the motivation behind MARKETING campaigns... This is true, right?

Sorry for my English, you se I`m not form a english speeking country! Så se til å hold kjeften din din forbanna wanna be cool vet alt hore!

One off the most stupid thing to do is to make you`r users belive that you`re gonna make something that`s gonna blow they`re minds, but all you do is make them puke!

Why spend money on a 2x800MHz when I can get 3 Wintels for the same amount off money?

F/reW/re

Jan 8, 2002, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by Marvenp
You people can argue forever about how good or bad you think the iMac is but there is just one glaring point that
I think the iMac is great, but where`s the stuff that was suppose to blow me away? (PowerMac)

tmx590

Jan 8, 2002, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by F/reW/re
God, I hope that you are not really a web developer... with such a bad case of illiteracy, that is a scary thought... ALTHOUGH, I suppose if you were really a good developer, you would have enough money to buy a computer... AND if you were a good designer you would understand the motivation behind MARKETING campaigns... This is true, right?

Sorry for my English, you se I`m not form a english speeking country! Så se til å hold kjeften din din forbanna wanna be cool vet alt hore!

One off the most stupid thing to do is to make you`r users belive that you`re gonna make something that`s gonna blow they`re minds, but all you do is make them puke!

Why spend money on a 2x800MHz when I can get 3 Wintels for the same amount off money?

Well, why are you complaining about how many PC's you can get for the price of a Mac? Sounds to me like you need to go buy those PC's with their dopey XP operating systems and jump off the cliff into crappy oblivion with all of the rest of the lemmings...
AND while we're talking about XP and Apple's marketing campaigns, AND since you are so hell-bent on comparing PC prices & specs to Apple's, can you tell me what software company has historically been the most guilty in perpetrating misleading marketing campaigns? I'll give you a hint, they currently have 95% market share.

F/reW/re

Jan 8, 2002, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by tmx590
Well, why are you complaining about how many PC's you can get for the price of a Mac? Sounds to me like you need to go buy those PC's with their dopey XP operating systems and jump off the cliff into crappy oblivion with all of the rest of the lemmings...
AND while we're talking about XP and Apple's marketing campaigns, AND since you are so hell-bent on comparing PC prices & specs to Apple's, can you tell me what software company has historically been the most guilty in perpetrating misleading marketing campaigns? I'll give you a hint, they currently have 95% market share.

I`m NEVER gonna buy a PC, I love Mac/Apple and I always will!

If M$ makes marketing mistakes, does that mean that it`s OK if Apple does them to? NOW!

marsmacguru

Jan 8, 2002, 10:59 AM

I believe that Apple will release the long-awaited G5 models sooner than we think, but later than we desire, which, undoubtedly, pisses everyone who cares about productivity right off. I sell these damn things, and I have those "PC" people breathing down my neck about "mega-hurts" and "giga-babble, " and, quite frnakly, I'm sick as hell of it all. If Apple wants to impress the market, they'll roll out some new equipment with some giga-something in the processor area. My customers want speed, and I would like to sell them speed, but, as of now, we can't claim that area. Sure, we have the "torque" per sé, but they have the wool of higher performance due to "giga-whatever" pulled ofer the eyes of the common man. If you're Joe idiot, and you see those aliens on TV being impressed with a 604-ripoff "pentium 4", then it must be good, right? Then why buy a "slower" Mac, when craptel has a 2-griggopummel dooziewhatzit under the hood... for $799, no less. Damn right, I'm mad. Isn't it funny that they use G4's to make pentium commercials?? The Blue man group, for example, uses macs, prefers macs, is not exclusive to macs, but recommends them...and they do pentium commercials.... Why, then, are we not cramming G4 down the throats of americans like the "superior" craptel calculator makers? Are we trying to be nicer than the enemy?

of this more i will speak.......

tmx590

Jan 8, 2002, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by F/reW/re
Originally posted by tmx590
Well, why are you complaining about how many PC's you can get for the price of a Mac? Sounds to me like you need to go buy those PC's with their dopey XP operating systems and jump off the cliff into crappy oblivion with all of the rest of the lemmings...
AND while we're talking about XP and Apple's marketing campaigns, AND since you are so hell-bent on comparing PC prices & specs to Apple's, can you tell me what software company has historically been the most guilty in perpetrating misleading marketing campaigns? I'll give you a hint, they currently have 95% market share.

I`m NEVER gonna buy a PC, I love Mac/Apple and I always will!

If M$ makes marketing mistakes, does that mean that it`s OK if Apple does them to? NOW!

Jesus! If you love Apple so much, quit complaining! AND yes, Apple can do whatever it wants relative to marketing, in my opinion. The more hype it creates, the better! I don't care if it's misleading to me, as a longtime user. This MacWorld keynote wasn't for me, it was for the sole purpose of creating hype in the marketplace for Apple - which is EXACTLY what Apple should be doing! But MARK MY WORDS, Jobs won't forget the longtime Mac faithful who want more powerful machines. Like I said in an earlier post, Apple will not squander the PowerMac under tight competition from the iMac for too long. THE GROUNDWORK HAS BEEN LAID. So go back to work, and quit stressing you lackluster English skills on pontificating mute nonsense.

tmx590

Jan 8, 2002, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by tmx590
Originally posted by F/reW/re
Originally posted by tmx590
Well, why are you complaining about how many PC's you can get for the price of a Mac? Sounds to me like you need to go buy those PC's with their dopey XP operating systems and jump off the cliff into crappy oblivion with all of the rest of the lemmings...
AND while we're talking about XP and Apple's marketing campaigns, AND since you are so hell-bent on comparing PC prices & specs to Apple's, can you tell me what software company has historically been the most guilty in perpetrating misleading marketing campaigns? I'll give you a hint, they currently have 95% market share.

I`m NEVER gonna buy a PC, I love Mac/Apple and I always will!

If M$ makes marketing mistakes, does that mean that it`s OK if Apple does them to? NOW!

Jesus! If you love Apple so much, quit complaining! AND yes, Apple can do whatever it wants relative to marketing, in my opinion. The more hype it creates, the better! I don't care if it's misleading to me, as a longtime user. This MacWorld keynote wasn't for me, it was for the sole purpose of creating hype in the marketplace for Apple - which is EXACTLY what Apple should be doing! But MARK MY WORDS, Jobs won't forget the longtime Mac faithful who want more powerful machines. Like I said in an earlier post, Apple will not squander the PowerMac under tight competition from the iMac for too long. THE GROUNDWORK HAS BEEN LAID. So go back to work, and quit stressing you lackluster English skills on pontificating mute nonsense.
Sorry, that was "moot nonsense", not "mute nonsense"... looks like I need to slow down...

marsmacguru

Jan 8, 2002, 11:25 AM

Screw you guys, I'm going home!!

(to play w/ my AMIGA!!!!) j/k

two things. 1: APPLE WILL ALWAYS BE SUPERIOR.
2: IF YOU DISAGREE, GO ***** YOURSELF!

I think I speak for many. PC folk are like demoncrats... They love to start pointless arguments.

F/reW/re

Jan 8, 2002, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by tmx590
Jesus! If you love Apple so much, quit complaining! AND yes, Apple can do whatever it wants relative to marketing, in my opinion. The more hype it creates, the better! I don't care if it's misleading to me, as a longtime user. This MacWorld keynote wasn't for me, it was for the sole purpose of creating hype in the marketplace for Apple - which is EXACTLY what Apple should be doing! But MARK MY WORDS, Jobs won't forget the longtime Mac faithful who want more powerful machines. Like I said in an earlier post, Apple will not squander the PowerMac under tight competition from the iMac for too long. THE GROUNDWORK HAS BEEN LAID. So go back to work, and quit stressing you lackluster English skills on pontificating mute nonsense.
Here in Norway Apple sendt e-mails to newspapers, websites saying this MWSF would be a day we will always look back on and love for the rest off our lifes. The websites responded by saying, this better be good, if not :(

On a website todag it says. Yesterday Bill Gates showed us the brand new revelouenary product thats gonna change our world, at the same time Steve Jobs was doing his jippo!

I`m sure Apple will make some great PowerMac soon but why get us so exited now when all we get is an iMac with stuff we have already seen before?

Bad marketing kills...!

[Edited by F/reW/re on 01-08-2002 at 11:57 AM]

eyelikeart

Jan 8, 2002, 02:52 PM

I think what Apple's doing is good marketing. They are filling a void in the digital world for consumers by creating unique hardware & software to accompany it. There's no right or wrong here, but what works for the company.

I could say a lot here but I'm starting to think anything positively said is going on deaf ears. I appreciate the fact that some people are disappointed with MWSF due to high expectations, but sitting here and complaining and then defending it will do absolutely no good. It's now time to get over it and move on...

GPTurismo

Jan 8, 2002, 03:03 PM

You know, this makes me think of when...

G3's ditched the Floppy and people screamed it would kill the mac.

When iMacs were originally released and people said apple was going to go under because of it.

When OS X was going to be UNIX, people claimed it was the end of mac os and people would just use a unix flavor.

When Apple released a mouse and people thought it was a waste and no way to operate a mans machine like the computer.

How people said Steve Jobs killed the Mac by cutting the life line of the mac clones.

Basically, all the industry people agree that Apple is going in the right direction. Even John Dvorak has made some surpisingly positive smirks.

The thing is, you people are thinking different, and want more of the same. And unfortunately, for the market to grow, someone has to take risks, and it's always apple taking the first step.

If you don't like it, get a tower, or a powerbook. End of story.

As for living up to the hype, it's a marvel of technology. Especially the arm that carries the LCD screen. Unfortunately, people want big numbers and and thingss to be able brag about. I want something that is functional, and thats one thing the new iMac is.

mischief

Jan 8, 2002, 03:10 PM

There are others here that try to educate and admit when we're wrong. Don't lose heart. The reason We're here is to debunk and inform. Sometimes people DO get blinded by Fear; you have to be patient and go slow. Those who Fear change also follow consensus, so if the few reasonable folks here are bickering too, we get nowhere. If we can back each other up, we make progress. This is a place where we can help Apple by making the "word of mouth" work FOR us. Let's keep our eyes on the Horizon and press on. Every disheartened Macuser we help has Nonmac friends. If we can get the Facts to line up for them, we can have greater impact. Apple's greatest marketing tool has always been us, Those who see.