Me Being Mad/Church/Christianity

[scem0]

I am really pissed right now. It is a Sunday morning, and my mom is making me go to church. Well, I can't say I'm not mad every sunday before church - Its just that today I think I will do something about it. Ever since I can remember my mom has been dragging me kicking and screaming - by the ears - to church. Last week, I decided I wanted to go, because we were having a sermon for the sceptic christians. I am about the biggest sceptic out there. So I went and listened. After it was all over, I was the most anti-christian person in the world. I don't hate christians, I just awe in wonder that they believe so many things that they have no good reason to believe in. I was a faithful christian from the ages of 10-12, I would bring my own money every suday to church and make an offering when even my mom didn't. I would pray for myself and others. What did I get out of being a devote christian? NOTHING. It is because a huge omnipotent super-God doesn't exist. Maybe he does, I am not totally ignoring that possibility. But I have no reason to believe that there is a God, and not Vishnu, Krishna, Satan, or any other diety of another religeon. So, after that sermon about scepticism, I went home and researched different religions. I have come to the conclusion that:

1 - I wont be christian until God knocks on my door, and tells me he is real himself
2 - I won't believe in any religion that makes bogus claims about anything at all
3 - I will be a religion that bases itself on rationality and thought.
4 - I will not be a religion because my mom makes me, or because a lot of other people are.

After looking at all these things, the religion that I thought suited me best is Neo-Tech. Neo-Tech is the absence of mysticism. I recommend that y'all research it. It has been firmly established in my family that I am neo-tech. My mom won't except it though, and so today I am being dragged back to christian church for the 99999999999999 time. How can my mom force me to go to church? I know she has the right to as my mother. BUt isn't it not a very christian thing to do. Force someone to go somewhere they don't want to go. I have no way to argue with my mom. She is not rationalizing in this particular situation. She is saying "I only have 2 rules that I require to be inforced: 1) You have to go to church every sunday 2) You can't ever drop out of school. So she has basically been forcing christianity upon me for the last 13 years. If I argue about it she talks about how she is going to make me go on Wed. too. Any suggestions on how I can NOT go to church? Any good points I could make to her to change her stubborness? Is there any way I can make my own choice about my own religion/my own life? My mom is making me very mad right now....

[edesignuk]

This thread has the potential to get nasty, just remember everyone, "each to his own opinion" and we'll be ok :D :p :cool:

[Hemingray]

Originally posted by scem0
1 - I wont be christian until God knocks on my door, and tells me he is real himself
2 - I won't believe in any religion that makes bogus claims about anything at all
3 - I will be a religion that bases itself on rationality and thought.
4 - I will not be a religion because my mom makes me, or because a lot of other people are.

1 - That ain't gonna happen.
2 - Then you may as well become an atheist or an agnostic. Every religion has what appear to be "bogus" claims. The fact is, it's based on faith. That's the whole point in believing in something.
3 - There are plenty of rational points to being in a religion. You should take a course in apologetics sometime; that's when it gets interesting.
4 - No one can make you be anything. Your mother obviously cares enough about you that she thinks that this will benefit you.

I am a Christian, and I will admit that there have been plenty of times that I have doubted my faith. But it all boils down to faith, it really does.

[Dignan]

Sorry for terrible spelling....

Ever think that there is a god of reason too? Not just a god of faith? Check this....

So, I assume you would say its true that if there were a god, that he would be the greatest being existing. So, he would have the largest amount possible of all the "great making" properties...omnibenevolent, omniscent, omnipotent, all that stuff...

So...

We can concieve (as we just have) of a most perfect being (god)

If something is a most perfect being, it exists (because it would be "less perfect" if it did not exist)

It is coherant that a most perfect being necissarily exists...

If it is coherant, it is possible..

A most perfect being is possible...

So then a most perfect being necissarily exists.

In other words....

1. Concept of god -> God is non-contingent (either exists or doesnt out of necessity)

2. Existence of god is coherent

3. God Is possible (from #2)

4. God is actual ( from #3 and #1)

Now, you can run this arguement in reverse, saying that the non-existence of god is possible, etc. But it doesnt work, because "not existing" is not a concept of a most perfect being, so it wont work. But yeah, then it brings up, is this the same god as the god of faith? Oh well, who knows...I just think its the best arguement.

[Durandal7]

In the words of krossfyter:
http://www.lamer.net/buddychrist-sucks.jpg

[Dignan]

So true.

I just used it as an oppertunity to help remember stuff I gotta know for my philosophy class...wheeeee....

[Hemingray]

Originally posted by Dignan
Ever think that there is a god of reason too? Not just a god of faith?

Definitely, thus my mentioning of taking an apologetics course. I didn't mean that Christianity is a completely blind faith. Ultimately, though, it has to boil down to us believing in whatever the evidence presented before us. The evidence could be piled up right in front of us but if our hearts and eyes remain closed it is useless.

[scem0]

Originally posted by Hemingray


1 - That ain't gonna happen.
2 - Then you may as well become an atheist or an agnostic. Every religion has what appear to be "bogus" claims. The fact is, it's based on faith. That's the whole point in believing in something.
3 - There are plenty of rational points to being in a religion. You should take a course in apologetics sometime; that's when it gets interesting.
4 - No one can make you be anything. Your mother obviously cares enough about you that she thinks that this will benefit you.

I am a Christian, and I will admit that there have been plenty of times that I have doubted my faith. But it all boils down to faith, it really does.

1 - I know it will never happen, that is why I don't believe in God
2 - Not all religions make bogus claims. Such as Confusianism, Buddhism, and Neo-Tech. They Don't claim to know how people were created, or that there is a god.
3 - There are plenty of rational points. But there are more rational points in Buddhism then in Christianity.
4 - I know my mom is doing this because she loves me. But she is making me hate christianity more and more.

--

In church, like I said they are trying to explain miracles, and Jesus' life, but it is impossible. It is like trying to prove that 6=-6. They are trying to prove the impossible. They make some good points, but they can usually be applied to other dieties. Such as: Today they said that many people would believe in God if they saw a miracle happen. The Preacher said that mostpeople were lying when they said that. And to prove it he showed a video of a man who was going mute get his voice back in a time period of about 5 seconds. It was definitely miraculous, but there are a million reasons why I am not believing in God after seeing this.

a. Maybe it occured naturally. Miraculous things happen every day that stay within the laws of nature.
b. Maybe it was fake. Maybe he was staging it all so more people would come to his church or just for fame. It could happen.
c. Why God? Even if it was a miracle, why is it God who healed him, and not Krishnu, Zeus, Amen Ra, Satan, or tree spirits? It could be any god of any religion.

[scem0]

Originally posted by Hemingray


Definitely, thus my mentioning of taking an apologetics course. I didn't mean that Christianity is a completely blind faith. Ultimately, though, it has to boil down to us believing in whatever the evidence presented before us. The evidence could be piled up right in front of us but if our hearts and eyes remain closed it is useless.

THere is no evidence of christianity being true though. There is very limited evidence. When I look at a religion I want the religion to admit that they don't have a clue how humans exist, or how whatever created humans was created. That is why I like Buddhism, Confusianism, and Neo-Tech. THey don't claim to know anything. THey base religion on science, and on what is known to be true based on experience and expiramentation.

[Dignan]

I have a feeling that "neo-tech" isnt gonna be taken seriously until they get a name that isnt laughable.

Or, until tom cruise and john travolta adopt it...

where is the love for scientology in this thread!?

[vniow]

Logical argument for the existence of a higher being:

What makes one moment pass into the next?

[krossfyter]

hehe thanks for that durandal!


scem0 you need to really study apologetics. all the points you are making are very shallow and can easily be shattered but i will stop my self from doing that because i know thats not what you need. just know that these thoughts you have... have been thought before and with a little reaserch and theological education will become faded thoughts as you understand more about christianity or any other religion for that matter.


if you want you can check out this...
reasons (http://www.reasons.org/)

this is a site that does a good job in presenting that science and faith are, and always will be, allies, not enemies

if nothing more you can get some apologetics training. heh... its fun man.


(there might be some people who see this who will want to try and debunk this sites claims and tell me about it.... dont try... its not worth it. debunk it for yourself if you may.... if you choose to. just dont come to me i will not be shaken... just trying to spare some time thats all:D )

[scem0]

How are my arguments shallow? I don't understand... I just think that a religion should make sense logically. Christianity does most of the time, but it makes a lot less sense then other religions. SO why should I choose christianity over those other religions? Because more people practice it? Of course not. But I see no reason why I should believe in Christianity.

Neo-Tech does need a new name. I always feel that my love for computers is my religion when I say Neo-Tech.

[vniow]

There's no reason why you SHOULD believe in Christianity.
Nobody here's trying to convert you, we're just trying to educate you on what the purpose of relgion actually is.:)

[krossfyter]

well your believe should not be contingent (dependent) upon the people and how they act or what they do or say or dont say. if you want to really believe in the truth and are sincere about it then ask God or the higher being ... supreme being or however yo see it... ask who ever is up there to show you whats up... you just have to be really sincere man. in time.. it may be short or it be a while but in time God will show himself.. .it may be in a way that you dont expect... thats the most intresting ways by the way.... but it will happen. i have enough faith and trust in God to tell you this. I dont doubt at all.. in the least bit. Why? because it has happned to me and it has happned to countless other people I know.

[Dignan]

I think lots of what you are talking to has to do less with the logistics of christianity, and more about what church you are going to, your relationship with your mom, etc. I mean, personally, Im not all that big into church itself, but that doesnt mean im gonna playa hate on christians in general. Organized religion is strange. Ive been to lots of really bad churches, but now we got one thats nice...so its all good.

[elfin buddy]

scem0:

I think you should sit down with your parents and calmly talk about it. I mean both parents (I'm assuming you have 2), and not just your mom because your dad will be able to act as a mediator. Whatever you do, don't flip out at her for trying to bring you to church.

If I were in your position, I would willingly go to church every Sunday with my family to learn as much as possible about Christianity. This way, you will be more able to combat it in the future, and it will help ease tensions between you and your mother. I also recommend that you go to www.beliefnet.com

It is an awesome site and you can learn a lot there. They have discussion groups for just about every religion in existance, and you can find other there who are in the same situation as yourself. I post there under the same alias as I do here. However, I don't post often, and most of my posts are either in the Teens section or the Atheist Challenge and Critique section.

Good luck!

[krossfyter]

very true dignan... very true indeed.


i too have been to many chrurches or events in which the christians there just bothered the heck out of me man. however i know my faith and my beleive in the truth is NEVER dependent on others. I am secure in myself to know for sure without a shadow of a doubt (now) that Jesus is the one and only savior. NO one and I mean no one... regardless of how they act or what they say will never change that in me.


sometimes i think that christians can be real punks man ... real hard and judgemental etc. etc. i know a lot that i just dont even want deal with because they bother me to the point where i just want to go do a football tackle on them or whatever.. heh... i mean im really considering getting that sticker that says "Jesus save me from your followers" .... however i would customize it to say "Jesus save me from some of your followers".


every group has thier bad apples... its not just one group. ive just been around christians long enough to develop more of a stink on some of them.


however there are a lot of christians and people of other faiths thaty i know that are real nice and cool.

[krossfyter]

www.beliefnet.com is an intresting site. i learned about it when i did a search on U2 and thier faith a while back and i linked up to it.

[scem0]

I get what y'all are saying and I know y'all aren't trying to convert me. My mom doesn enough of that ;D. I just don't like the logic used in Christianity. I don't like the mysticism involoved. I have trouble believing that there was a man named Jesus who walked on water, and changed water into wine. It just doesn't sound like something that anyone in their right mind would believe in. I mean, if you came up to someone who had no concept of religion, and told them that there was an omnipotent being that created us all, and that he will guide us during life, and shower us with his grace - THat he sent his only son to correct the wrong-doings of mankind
(and that he walked on water), he would think you were crazy. I guess I kind of feel Christians are crazy to a certain degree.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by scem0
I get what y'all are saying and I know y'all aren't trying to convert me. My mom doesn enough of that ;D. I just don't like the logic used in Christianity. I don't like the mysticism involoved. I have trouble believing that there was a man named Jesus who walked on water, and changed water into wine. It just doesn't sound like something that anyone in their right mind would believe in. I mean, if you came up to someone who had no concept of religion, and told them that there was an omnipotent being that created us all, and that he will guide us during life, and shower us with his grace - THat he sent his only son to correct the wrong-doings of mankind
(and that he walked on water), he would think you were crazy. I guess I kind of feel Christians are crazy to a certain degree.


understood. but you must understand, and if you want in time you will, that there is more to this life then just logic. there are supernatural aspects to life that sometimes defy logics laws or reasoning you know. not everything HAS to be explained. there are mysterious to this world that will rattle your brain man. thats whats soo cool. if everything were logic oriented it be boring here. whatever.. just know that your wanting everything to be understood or logical is impossible.
were human beings with finite mans who are very fallible .

If you beleive in God being the creator of the world/universe there should be no trouble inbeleving that God can send himself in human form and perform the miracles said in the bible. why would human logic limit a God that created humans?

[scem0]

Why try to understand supernatural things when they are impossible to understand. Why are supernatural things always connected to God? I think that science should try to explain supernatural events the best it can, and if it can't then there is no logical explanation and I am sure that people will make up spiritual explanations, but they won't be true. FOr example: THunder and Lightning was thought to be sent by the gods a long time ago. To the ancient humans they were supernatural. Science has, since then, proven them wrong. And thunder and lighting are known not to come from gods but from natural forces.

[krossfyter]

science is not going to save the world. science doesnt have all the answers.. we would be abusing the subject if we thought it did. there are essential ideas of quantum mechanics that are proposterous for us to believe logically. yet some scientists have to have a little faith. science can never explain everything. sometimes things happen that defy explanation and to use the argument that perhaps human science can figure it out is to go at it from the wrong perspective.

[scem0]

Religion can't explain them either. Religion tries to but there is no explanation.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by scem0
Religion can't explain them either. Religion tries to but there is no explanation.


i didnt say it could.. or nor was i implying it.


religion (an institution designed by man to reach God) is in essence man made in the first place. so of course it cnat explain everything.

[vniow]

Originally posted by scem0
Religion can't explain them either. Religion tries to but there is no explanation.


Yes there is.
Religion, myths, myscisism, explain things from an internal symbolic view.
If you try to understand how they explain the world from a logical, literal, scientific point of view, then you're sadly missing the point.:)

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by edvniow



Yes there is.
Religion, myths, myscisism, explain things from an internal symbolic view.
If you try to understand how they explain the world from a logical, literal, scientific point of view, then you're sadly missing the point.:)


very good point.

[jelloshotsrule]

did i misread... or did dig-boz just say "playa hating on all christians"?????


hahaha!!

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
did i misread... or did dig-boz just say "playa hating on all christians"?????


hahaha!!


who said that?

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Dignan
I mean, personally, Im not all that big into church itself, but that doesnt mean im gonna playa hate on christians in general.

dig-boz i said


classic...

[scem0]

I don't playa-hate christians I just don't understand how they can believe in men walking on water.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


dig-boz i said


classic...


oh okay. is this odd because....

1) youve wouldnt ever think of dignan to say this?
2) or you would never think of him saying this like this?
3)or odd because youve never heard it said like this at all?



:D

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by scem0
I don't playa-hate christians I just don't understand how they can believe in men walking on water.


no not men in the plural sense... but only Jesus.

[scem0]

Okay, I don't understand how christians can believe in Jesus walking onwater. i have to see it, or have proof to believe it.

[vniow]

Originally posted by scem0
Okay, I don't understand how christians can believe in Jesus walking onwater. i have to see it, or have proof to believe it.


I said it before and I'll say it again.
Religion explains things from a symbolic, internal point of view. Chances are, He never walked on water.
There was probably no parting of thr Red Sea and Noah never built an ark to hold all of the world's creatures.
They might have, but probably not.
Why?
Because we live in a physical world where there are physical limitations.
But you must understand that the physical and the spiritual are intertwined, so one cannot exist without the other.:)

[Shrek]

Oh brother. Well, I sure hope you don't end up like my brother. :eek:

[scem0]

Why write a whole story saying 'Emo took out a knife, emo stabbed Veronica, Emo got struck by lightning, emo was in pain, emo regretted it' when you could just say 'Don't do bad things'. I hate metphorical things.

[scem0]

Originally posted by Shrek
Oh brother. Well, I sure hope you don't end up like my brother. :eek:

Elaborate.... What is your brother like? scary mudvayne obsessed death metal person? You don't have to worry about me becoming one of them.

[krossfyter]

scemo do you not beleive that there are spiritual and mystical elements of Buddhism too? because if you are you are mistaken.

[scem0]

No, I don't believe in the spiritual or mystical elements of Buddhism. That is why I am neo-tech. It is the absence of mysticism.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by edvniow



I said it before and I'll say it again.
Religion explains things from a symbolic, internal point of view. Chances are, He never walked on water.
There was probably no parting of thr Red Sea and Noah never built an ark to hold all of the world's creatures.
They might have, but probably not.
Why?
Because we live in a physical world where there are physical limitations.
But you must understand that the physical and the spiritual are intertwined, so one cannot exist without the other.:)


understood and i somewhat agree... but i would add to that that anyone who is the creator of time and space and is outside this time and space is not of course subject to its laws so that person will be able to do such things... such as part the waters or walk on water... etc. etc.

im just adding not denying what you are saying. ;)


Einstein himself said that the creator of the universe has to be outside time and space... i believe newton said this as well.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0


Elaborate.... What is your brother like? scary mudvayne obsessed death metal person?

Um, exactly. He poisoned his mind right from the beginning by indulging himself extreme music and movies that promote hate, violence, sex, gore, and the like. Now he is mentally unstable and completely defiant and violent towards everyone except his friends. You can't even talk to him these days without getting into a "fight" with him. If this is how you got started, then perhaps it's time to think about turning back before it's too late. :)

[scem0]

Yes, the creator of everything is outside of our understanding. The preacher described it as the earth and all the humans being on a 2d sheet of paper (even though paper is actually 3d) and we were all flat. If god was a 3d figure holding the sheet of paper, we wouldn't be able to understand him. If god sticks a finger through the sheet of paper, we wouldn't be able to comprehend it. That is kind of how he explained miracles. I don't think it applies very well to real life though.

[scem0]

I actually like Mudvayne but I don't like to fight :D.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
I actually like Mudvayne but I don't like to fight :D.

That's exactly what I mean. You could become that way someday. Turn back now before it's too late. Otherwise, it'll get harder and harder the more you wait!

[Shrek]

Listen to your parents. They know what's best for you. Luckily for me, I avoided mudvayne when I was young like you. And today, going on 23, I don't even go near it. :)

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by scem0
No, I don't believe in the spiritual or mystical elements of Buddhism. That is why I am neo-tech. It is the absence of mysticism.

ahh okay... neo tech.


it just seems its a re-packeged satanic belief.

This Neo-Techism is nothing 'revolutionary'

it claims freedom from 'mysticism & religion' yet it worships the Almighty Dollar & the Physical Body
... perhaps?

is it a Nazi-esque mentality.....

[Shrek]

Christianity may not seem to make sense in many ways, and it's not suppose to. But if you indulge yourself in it, it can have a positive effect on your life. :) As the saying goes, "If you're not getting any better, then you're just getting worse." ;)

[krossfyter]

scemo im not meaning to be rude or anything im just conversing with you man...

but Did it ever occur to you that your neo-techism looks pretty similar to communism? The basic idea is primitive: find the good guys ('value producers' in NT, proletariat in Marxism) and find the bad guys ('value destroyers/parasites' in NT, capitalists in Marxism). Then, blame everything on the bad guys, and proclaim that the good guys are going to win... All this has already happened

[krossfyter]

its very fashionable to dog christianity. nothing new.

a lot of people want everything easy thats why a lot of people subscribed to an unofficial belief in buddism or neo tech. because it fits thier way of life. its not challenging. christianity does not fit you you have to fit to it. all christianity is is the belief in CHrist as the only way. christian means ... christ in.

its not about laws regulations or rules... its about living life most abundantly. what better way to live your life then live it the way the creator wants you to?

[scem0]

The way I see it is...

Find the problems in your life...
Figure out how to get rid of them....
Get rid of them...
Be happy.

It is kind of communistic, but not in a bad way.

I am not a scary person, and I never will be. Just look at my avatar, do I look scary??? I guess that is arguable :D...

[krossfyter]

wow. scemo you can belief in what you want.. im not trying to change that. im just conversing with you. just for the record man. i know it may seem that im doggin on ya but im not... i just have my views too. cool man. go ahead and do what you think is right but make sure you know the consequences of what ever you do.


;)

[scem0]

I know that you have to take the bad along with the good in life, and with religions. I just don't see where putting more then $100 of my $ when I was 12 years old got me, other then $100 further from a new computer. God never guided me... I prayed... I followed the 10 commandments... I prayed for people who I didn't like.... Nothing happened, I never got 'rewarded'. I didn't really expect to get rewarded. I expected something to happen. Nothing did though. :o

[vniow]

for scem0:


Okay, I'm a bit late but here's how I see it from a symbolic point of view:


Water. What is water?
Well, to us it's life. Without it we die right?

Now what does it mean when Jesus walks on water?
Well, he's walking on what we depend on for life, so he's saying I am your life.
But also note that He's above the water. That would imply that He's more than life (in the physical world)

That goes perfectly with the Christian cross:
|
|
--------|--------
|
|
|
|
|

where the horizontal represents the physical and the vertical represents the spiritual.
If you look at the cross from a symbolic point of view, you can tell that Christians regard spirituality more important that physicality, note that the horizontal bar is shorter and above center.:)


Edit, those funky lines above are supposed to be a cross, it just didn't turn out.

[scem0]

Originally posted by krossfyter
wow. scemo you can belief in what you want.. im not trying to change that. im just conversing with you. just for the record man. i know it may seem that im doggin on ya but im not... i just have my views too. cool man. go ahead and do what you think is right but make sure you know the consequences of what ever you do.


;)

Yeah, I know. I am totally lost when it comes to religion right now. I don't really agree with all the aspects of any of them. I think I need to invent Scemism or Emoism.

[krossfyter]

hey nice cross edvniow! heh

;)

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
Find the problems in your life...
Figure out how to get rid of them....
Get rid of them...
Be happy.

You can't do that on your own, scem0. You need God to help you. But if you want to find that out the hard way, that's fine with me, but don't I say I didn't warn ya. ;)

[dnte42]

Originally posted by scem0
I know that you have to take the bad along with the good in life, and with religions. I just don't see where putting more then $100 of my $ when I was 12 years old got me, other then $100 further from a new computer. God never guided me... I prayed... I followed the 10 commandments... I prayed for people who I didn't like.... Nothing happened, I never got 'rewarded'. I didn't really expect to get rewarded. I expected something to happen. Nothing did though. :o

Well, I'll probably just butt in, make this point, and runoft again...

Anyway, I just want to say that the "what's in it for me?" attitude is really not a good way to approach Christianity. If you really want something out of it, heaven waits for you. What did the 100 dollars do? Hopefully, they went toward a good cause, such as building homes or feeding people, or some other charity your church is involved with. Don't take this the wrong way, but I think this is a lot more important than a computer. Christians are basically called to be "servants of all" (sorry, can't place that, I've just heard it a lot) and I have to say that life can be a lot more fulfilling when you are looking out for other people, and not just yourself. Ever work in a very poor urban neighborhood? It is truly amazing how happy you can make people by helping them out when no one else would. Just a little something to think about.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
I know that you have to take the bad along with the good in life, and with religions. I just don't see where putting more then $100 of my $ when I was 12 years old got me, other then $100 further from a new computer. God never guided me... I prayed... I followed the 10 commandments... I prayed for people who I didn't like.... Nothing happened, I never got 'rewarded'. I didn't really expect to get rewarded. I expected something to happen. Nothing did though. :o

Sounds like you've got the wrong ideas about Christianity scem0. As edvniow said, it's not about physical things, it's about accepting things as they are and being happy about it. And I'm sure God blessed you somehow by giving that $100; he just doesn't always bless you in the way you expect him to. Oh, and sometimes God's answer is 'no' but there's always a good reason for a 'no' answer; it's like an IF and THEN statement with an algorithm in it.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by dnte42
Christians are basically called to be "servants of all" (sorry, can't place that, I've just heard it a lot) and I have to say that life can be a lot more fulfilling when you are looking out for other people, and not just yourself. Ever work in a very poor urban neighborhood? It is truly amazing how happy you can make people by helping them out when no one else would.

Scem0, if you help others out, then they will most likely help you in return. Don't think inwardly. Think outwardly.

[PCUser]

Originally posted by Shrek


You can't do that on your own, scem0. You need God to help you. But if you want to find that out the hard way, that's fine with me, but don't I say I didn't warn ya. ;)

This is all my opinion and a bit of a rambling rant, but...

I take issue with that statement. In my opinion, I don't need God to help me find the problems in my life. Several years ago, I discovered a belief in a mythological God was the problem in my life. Ever since I rejected Christianity, I've been happier. And much nicer. It's not that way for everyone, but it was for me. Not everyone needs a myth to make their decisions.

Scem0, don't let them scare you back into Christianity. If belief in the Christian God makes you happy and fulfils your life, then go right ahead and believe.

Also, why Neo-tech? Why subscribe to any pre-defined worldview? If you take issue with God, don't believe in God. You don't have to find a different belief to take it's place.

[krossfyter]

heh. i dont think im scaring him. i certainly dont want to scare the guy... he is already scared... look at his pic man! ;)

nah but ... its up to him what he wants to do.. im just conversating with him on my expierences and understanding only way i can.

like you pcuser i too have a happier life now....although im living it differently then you of course....now that im not secular any more ... happier trying be more like Jesus with the individuality that God has given me.

if your happy being who you are ... who am i to try and change that? rock on be happy.


sometimes i think those who say they were once christian were never really christian in the first place.... because Christian means "Christ in" ... nothing else (Christ in your heart). If Christ is really in you ... you would never want to go back or go anywhere else. Likewise with macs... if you are really a mac head you would never go back to using a pc.

"Once you go mac you never go back"

dont flame on me. im not trying to hurt... annoy or upset anyone.

[dnte42]

I think Jesus used a Mac...

Sorry, just had to pick at the analogy ;)

[alex_ant]

Keep in mind this is an atheist speaking, so take that how you will:
Originally posted by scem0
I went home and researched different religions. I have come to the conclusion that:

1 - I wont be christian until God knocks on my door, and tells me he is real himself
Just keep in mind that the fact that he doesn't knock on your door and tell you he's real doesn't mean he's not. (To argue for the "other side")

The thing about religions is that they can say just about anything they like, and as long as it doesn't conflict with any known scientific theory, followers of that religion will taunt anyone to prove them wrong. Because as long as they can't be proven wrong, well, they might as well be right!

This Neo-Tech thing you're referring to sounds a lot more like an all-encompassing socio-political world view than a religion. It seems to have atheism at its core, since, well, name one religion that doesn't make "bogus" claims about anything at all. :) So it could, perhaps, be reduced to that.
How can my mom force me to go to church? I know she has the right to as my mother. BUt isn't it not a very christian thing to do. Force someone to go somewhere they don't want to go. I have no way to argue with my mom. She is not rationalizing in this particular situation. She is saying "I only have 2 rules that I require to be inforced: 1) You have to go to church every sunday 2) You can't ever drop out of school. So she has basically been forcing christianity upon me for the last 13 years. If I argue about it she talks about how she is going to make me go on Wed. too. Any suggestions on how I can NOT go to church? Any good points I could make to her to change her stubborness? Is there any way I can make my own choice about my own religion/my own life? My mom is making me very mad right now....
I sympathize with your position, but the best advice I could give you would be to keep talking to her and trying to convince her of your feelings for why you don't want to go to church etc. Failing that, the best thing you could do would be to wait until you're 18 and then amicably move out. Lots of young'uns have problems in their home situations. (I had to mow the damned lawn, which was more like a vast field, each week, when it didn't even need to be mowed, and it took 3 hours each time.) You should look at the bright side of your situation:

- Church is only once a week (?)
- You're getting free meals, laundry, and housing in the meantime
- You can always close your mind at church and think of other things.
- At least you aren't being forced into a religious boarding school or Bible college

Stay friends with your mom and don't make this into a bigger problem than it is.

Alex

[krossfyter]

[i]Originally posted by alex_ant


Stay friends with your mom and don't make this into a bigger problem than it is.

Alex [/B]



if he takes anything positive from this thread i pray that he takes this one.

thanks for pointing that out alex ant.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by dnte42
I think Jesus used a Mac...

Sorry, just had to pick at the analogy ;)


lol

i have a shirt thats says...

"if Jesus were to do it all over again he would use a mac."


trippy aye?!;)

[scem0]

lol, me and my mom get along really well. I wouldn't call our arguments very ummm heated. I don't think that giving my church the money helped me at all. Yeah it helped others, but I am going to be selfish and say that I would be happier if I had kept the money. Im not trying to be selfish, i am just stating what I know to be the truth. I am not really Neo-Tech. I don't know what I am. I am just looking into all religions right now. Maybe I will be Aithiest, maybe I will be agnostic. Im just gunna go with what I think is the most logical religion.

I had to mow the damned lawn, which was more like a vast field, each week, when it didn't even need to be mowed, and it took 3 hours each time.

Wow, someone else who was the same predicament I used to be in! My family owns 11 acres. I never had to mow all of it (that would take all day), but I had to mow about 2 and a half full acres of grass with an electric lawn mower. UGGGG . It couldn't cut tall grass. I hate it. ;). I complained about it so much that I switched houshold jobs with my sister. She mows the lawn (which is 'good exercise' but who care about that :D) and I clean the house :D. Cleaning is sooooo much easier.

[cleo]

I'm jumping into this thread pretty late, but since I do have a degree in religious studies, I thought I'd throw some thoughts out there.

1 - paul tillich gives a thoughtful definition of mysticism - that which is at the very ground of being. mysticism is our door to the sacred, and by most definitions, the sacred is precisely that which is outside of our normal time/space. the buddha said that he could no better explain nirvana to the unenlightened than a frog could explain air to a tadpole. (sounds familiar, eh?) there's more to the sacred than miracles, but it's impossible to articulate - this is eliade's "mysterium tremendum at fascinans". I (a buddhist) have experienced the sacred in a greek orthodox easter vigil, during the recitation of the kaddish, in a corn field in illinois with millions of stars overhead... my point is that you should try to distinguish the sacred/mystical from the institutions that have grown up around it. the sacred is an absolutely essential part of full living, and i would encourage you not to block yourself off to it at such an early age.

2 - on a practical note, getting mad on principle every sunday morning isn't going to do anything for your mental health. try to remain open. jesus, water-walker or not, was a ***** revolutionary. start a teens-for-social-justice action group. listen to u2 and the supertones. even if the language of salvation doesn't resonate with you, try to find something that does, on some level. the fact is, until you're on your own, you do need to do what your parents ask (especially when, really, this isn't that much to ask of you.) so instead of being so negative about it, remain open to the possibility that you might learn something about yourself or about the nature of the world, and see what happens.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
Yeah it helped others, but I am going to be selfish and say that I would be happier if I had kept the money. Im not trying to be selfish, i am just stating what I know to be the truth.

Religion or no religion, if you go out into the world with an attitude like that you won't be liked and you won't be happy. If money makes you happy, then you're screwed. There's just been too many people out there who have gotten too hung up on money and have ruined their lives as a result. Believe me, I know. ;)

[dnte42]

Heh, go capitalism. It makes everyone unhappy, and convinces them that spending more money will fix that. I'm so very happy I'm not very materialistic (and not just cuz I'm in college...).

[Shrek]

Scem0, if you think buying more expensive stuff is going to make you happier, forget it. Buy only what you need, give your 10%, and save the rest for the better things in life (like a home, a wife, kids, etc, but save those things for later).

Oh, and by the way, don't think that you're going to make much money at such a young age because, you're not. Trust me. Everyone has to start at the bottom. Period.

[PCUser]

Originally posted by Shrek
Scem0, if you think buying more expensive stuff is going to make you happier, forget it. Buy only what you need, give your 10%, and save the rest for the better things in life (like a home, a wife, kids, etc, but save those things for later).

Oh, and by the way, don't think that you're going to make much money at such a young age because, you're not. Trust me. Everyone has to start at the bottom. Period.

Sorry, this is a bit of a flame, but I really disagree with your post.

A better computer make me happier. Sure, I could get an el-cheapo Microtel box from Wal-mart for $200, but it won't compile my programming very quickly. The faster it does things, the happier I am. And that happens to be more expensive stuff. Your view on it sounds a lot like sour grapes.

10%? Where did 10% come from? That sounds mysteriously specific. Just curious.

Also, ************ about starting at the bottom. I made $40 an hour doing computer work when I was 18. If you go the corporate route, then yes you start at the bottom. Go freelance, and you start at the top.

[bidge]

Yes, you're going to be happier until you need to buy another one.

This thread doesn't have to do with computers only, which is what you make it sound like. You're only including material possesions in there that make you happy. But does it really make you happy, and if being able to compile something quickly makes you happy I feel sorry for you.

For scemo: listen to these guys (krossfyter, cleo, shrek) they have some really cool stuff to say.

Some of the statements you make are rather contradictory, (i think) somewhere in this thread I read somethin about ancient Gods making thunder and then that was disproved. That was as scientific as there line of thought got. Their theories were disproved. Now current science seems logical, but how much do you not about it for it to be completely logical.

new scientific ideas are always being made, thought up. Even if at the moment though you can't seem to decide where you're heading and don't understand some of the christian ideas and concepts, try to let that come later as you become older and wiser. Even if you don't believe in God just yet the christian principles will help you life your life to the full.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by PCUser

Sorry, this is a bit of a flame, but I really disagree with your post.


Flame? Where did that come from?


A better computer make me happier. Sure, I could get an el-cheapo Microtel box from Wal-mart for $200, but it won't compile my programming very quickly. The faster it does things, the happier I am. And that happens to be more expensive stuff. Your view on it sounds a lot like sour grapes.


That's just it. You can never be happy that way because it's never enough. Look out for your needs, not your wants. If you buy what want, you will overwhelm yourself. If you buy what you need, you'll be able to use it to the fullest (and you won't empty your wallet either ;) ).


10%? Where did 10% come from? That sounds mysteriously specific. Just curious.


And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God's house, and of all that you give to me I will surely give a tenth to you. --Genesis 28:22


Also, ************ about starting at the bottom. I made $40 an hour doing computer work when I was 18. If you go the corporate route, then yes you start at the bottom. Go freelance, and you start at the top.

Yeah, and this guy is like under 18. He still has to listen to his parents when they tell him to go to church and give tithes. And when you do get to 18, only if you get really lucky can you ever start at the top.

[Durandal7]

Originally posted by dnte42
I think Jesus used a Mac...

Sorry, just had to pick at the analogy ;)
If he could turn water into wine then I'm sure he took a minute at some point to turn a stick into an iBook.

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by bidge
new scientific ideas are always being made, thought up. Even if at the moment though you can't seem to decide where you're heading and don't understand some of the christian ideas and concepts, try to let that come later as you become older and wiser. Even if you don't believe in God just yet the christian principles will help you life your life to the full.
I hope you weren't meaning to imply that the "Christian principles" being talked about are exclusively the property of Christians. It's perfectly possible to live modestly, be selfless and respectful, and all of that other ****e without having squat to do with any sort of religion. Likewise, it is possible to be old and wise without being Christian. The way you phrased that last paragraph makes it sound as if you're advising that scem0 take his time and allow Christian ideals and concepts to come to him later as if that were bound to happen - as if that were the natural progression - the gradual change from anti-religious non-believer to proper Christian believer. That's just how I read what you said, though.

Alex

[scem0]

Just to let you know, that $100 was not like a 10% of my money. It was more like 100% . I don't and haven't ever gotten an allowance, and I don't get paid for anything I do. My mom buys me a computer every 2 years, which I am fine with, but still. That $100 was money I had gotten from my grandparents at christmas. I would have been happier if I still had it now.

I am earning $8.50 an hour at 15 - that's a good start :D.

I won't be becoming christian any time soon. I still like Buddhism 10 times more, and other religions in between. I guess like isnt the word though. I thing Buddhism is 10x a better religion. And if I find some major flaw with Buddhism, then there are a million religions I like more then christianity.

going to church every sunday is doing me no good. After going to church every sunday for 13 years you start to hear the same things over and over in the sermons. I don't listen anymore, I think of things that will benifet me more then just listening to the ramblings of a man who I think doesn't have the right point of view on many things.

[PCUser]

scem0:

Why do you need religion? You don't need a religion to believe in something better then the current state of humanity. The belief is yours, religions just uses it to their ends.


I know I'm going to start an even bigger argument here, but I like to answer what others say. I hope it makes for meaningful conversation. ;)

Originally posted by bidge
Yes, you're going to be happier until you need to buy another one.

This thread doesn't have to do with computers only, which is what you make it sound like. You're only including material possesions in there that make you happy. But does it really make you happy, and if being able to compile something quickly makes you happy I feel sorry for you.

I was using computers as a quick example of how a more expensive computer can make someone happier then a cheaper one. I did not intend for it make it sound like it was about computers only.

And yes, it does really make me happy. Why wouldn't it? I can get different kinds of work done faster when my computer can keep up with me better. Once a year, I reward myself with buying much better components then the ones I have (at what I consider a decent price, after shopping around). Those newer components make the work I do go faster. They allow me to play the newer games to relax after a long session of work. Is that all there is? No, and I'm not saying it is. I'm not glued to my computer. I do other things that make me happy, too, that don't require "material possessions". Things such as going for a walk in the woods outside of my house, or going on a date with my girlfriend. My point is: material possessions do make my life easier and more enjoyable. Which, in turn, increases my happiness. (And the more expensive ones generally do it better.)

What "material possessions" wouldn't make me happy? Why would I buy something it if it won't satisfy my wants, and therefore make me happy?


Originally posted by Shrek
Flame? Where did that come from?

I was stating up front that my post was a bit of a flame. Sorry about any confusion.


That's just it. You can never be happy that way because it's never enough. Look out for your needs, not your wants. If you buy what want, you will overwhelm yourself. If you buy what you need, you'll be able to use it to the fullest (and you won't empty your wallet either ).

Why not? It is enough to make me happy. Fulfilling wants doesn't mean I buy everything under the sun. I can fulfill my wants and still have a large amount of money left over. I hardly buy anything at all. When I do buy something, I make sure it will satisfy my wants, and therefore make me happier. I don't overwhelm myself with stuff, either. Once I want something new, I sell off that which I don't want anymore (eBay is a great way to do so, as are want ads in the newspaper). I can care about wants and not waste my money. The possessions I do own (a computer, books, etc) make life pleasant. If I bought only what I need (shelter and substance), I'd be very miserable. In my opinion, anything beyond a shack and food stamps is buying a "want", since it is not necessary for survival (and therefore not a "need"). My needs are easy enough to take care. After my needs are done, I look after my wants.


And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God's house, and of all that you give to me I will surely give a tenth to you. --Genesis 28:22

According to that quote, he will get 10% back of everything he gives to his Church, not that he has to give them 10%.


Yeah, and this guy is like under 18. He still has to listen to his parents when they tell him to go to church and give tithes. And when you do get to 18, only if you get really lucky can you ever start at the top.

He can mow people's lawns, can't he? Sell lemonade? Tutor other students for a small fee? Just because someone is under 18 doesn't mean they can't do "freelance" work. Set your own hours, provide services others want, and you are on top. Aspire to work for a company, and you will never be on top. It's not if you get really lucky... it's if you see open your eyes and see the vast amount of opportunity out there.

And why should he have to go to church and give donations? I'd like to see some actual laws saying he has to obey every whim of his parents, even if he disagrees with it. If that was the case, children couldn't complain about sexual abuse, because they would have to obey every whim of their parents. I know, that's a drastic case, but it does fit the attitude. Just because they are your parents doesn't mean you have to do everything they want. If he was born in the US (which he very well might have not been), he is a citizen even if he is under 18. If that is the case, he does have the right to freedom of religion.

[dnte42]

Heh, I hope this is a search for truth (perhaps Truth?), and not just an organization you can jive with. Just remember (even if you don't, perhaps especially if you don't) that there are so many different varieties of churches and Christian beliefs. A bad experience with one of them doesn't mean all the others are bad. Going to church is one thing, an important one, I believe, but independant study is what will help you most here. As Cleo and one or two others said, try taking a class or something, to gain a full understanding of everything. As (one version of) 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 says: "Do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully." When you are looking around, try to be objective and not bring in grudges and such things. Good luck.

[scem0]

This is definitely a search for truth and not an 'organization I can jive with', that is what school is for. I guess I don't need a religion, but it is nice to have something to lean on during hard times other than people. Being part of a religion can help you in every day activities. That is why I want to be part of a religion. Oh shoot, I forgot to do my latin homework. No more posting for me. I better pray that it gets done :D. There is a lot of it.

[FattyMembrane]

hey schem0, i just started reading this thread, and since it was so late at night, i did not feel like going through all 76 replies (i hope you can sympathize) so i'm sorry if i repeat anything.

i'm a devoted christian, and i COMPLETELY understand your hate for the church. i hate the church too and dont blame you at all for not wanting to go, first of all, i find it to be meretricious and what the hell is some falliable human priest going to tell you about divine enlightenment?

i urge you not to give up on christianity and dont think that church and the hierarchy of clergy is what it's all about. it's not about that at all, thats just what bored people do to keep themselves occupied.

If God was just going to reveal himself in a blinding flash of light and control all of our actions, that would defeat our purpose, we could not choose to believe or not. I sincerely urge you to read the gospel and think about it and whatever you do, dont listen to what people in church, and youth groups, and revivals tell you, you have to figure it all out for yourself. God is beyond our scope of reasoning and trying to make sense of why/who/what it is is seldom going to end with logical arguements.

someday, God will "knock on your front door" in a figurative sense (catastrophe, profound revelation, etc.) and you can choose to ignore it (although this is still admiting its existance) or believe it. i hope that you work things out alright, drop me a line if you want at pusherman(at)spymac(dot)com

[dnte42]

Originally posted by PCUser
According to that quote, he will get 10% back of everything he gives to his Church, not that he has to give them 10%.


Genesis 28:20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will keep me on this journey that I take, and will give me food to eat and garments to wear, 21 and I return to my father's house in safety, then the LORD will be my God.
22 "This stone, which I have set up as a pillar, will be God's house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You."

Jacob will give a tenth to God, not the other way around.

[dnte42]

Originally posted by FattyMembrane
i'm a devoted christian, and i COMPLETELY understand your hate for the church. i hate the church too and dont blame you at all for not wanting to go, first of all, i find it to be meretricious and what the hell is some falliable human priest going to tell you about divine enlightenment?

i urge you not to give up on christianity and dont think that church and the hierarchy of clergy is what it's all about. it's not about that at all, thats just what bored people do to keep themselves occupied.


Now this I completely disagree with. Again, we have established some churches are bad. However, unless you devote a large part of your day to the study of scripture, a person who has devoted their life to studying it will likely have more insight or basic knowledge than you. If you find a church will a good pastor (reverend, priest, etc.) they are VERY worthwhile to listen to. As for figuring things out by yourself, if nothing else, discussion is necessary to a truer understanding. Humans are logical beings, but our logic is far from infallible. It is important to talk with others to test your ideas. Group study is even better, since many points of view can help a lot in grasping certain ideas.

[PCUser]

Thanks for the clarification. That does make more sense.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by PCUser
scem0:

Why do you need religion? You don't need a religion to believe in something better then the current state of humanity. The belief is yours, religions just uses it to their ends.


I know I'm going to start an even bigger argument here, but I like to answer what others say. I hope it makes for meaningful conversation. ;)



I was using computers as a quick example of how a more expensive computer can make someone happier then a cheaper one. I did not intend for it make it sound like it was about computers only.

And yes, it does really make me happy. Why wouldn't it? I can get different kinds of work done faster when my computer can keep up with me better. Once a year, I reward myself with buying much better components then the ones I have (at what I consider a decent price, after shopping around). Those newer components make the work I do go faster. They allow me to play the newer games to relax after a long session of work. Is that all there is? No, and I'm not saying it is. I'm not glued to my computer. I do other things that make me happy, too, that don't require "material possessions". Things such as going for a walk in the woods outside of my house, or going on a date with my girlfriend. My point is: material possessions do make my life easier and more enjoyable. Which, in turn, increases my happiness. (And the more expensive ones generally do it better.)

What "material possessions" wouldn't make me happy? Why would I buy something it if it won't satisfy my wants, and therefore make me happy?




I was stating up front that my post was a bit of a flame. Sorry about any confusion.



Why not? It is enough to make me happy. Fulfilling wants doesn't mean I buy everything under the sun. I can fulfill my wants and still have a large amount of money left over. I hardly buy anything at all. When I do buy something, I make sure it will satisfy my wants, and therefore make me happier. I don't overwhelm myself with stuff, either. Once I want something new, I sell off that which I don't want anymore (eBay is a great way to do so, as are want ads in the newspaper). I can care about wants and not waste my money. The possessions I do own (a computer, books, etc) make life pleasant. If I bought only what I need (shelter and substance), I'd be very miserable. In my opinion, anything beyond a shack and food stamps is buying a "want", since it is not necessary for survival (and therefore not a "need"). My needs are easy enough to take care. After my needs are done, I look after my wants.



According to that quote, he will get 10% back of everything he gives to his Church, not that he has to give them 10%.



He can mow people's lawns, can't he? Sell lemonade? Tutor other students for a small fee? Just because someone is under 18 doesn't mean they can't do "freelance" work. Set your own hours, provide services others want, and you are on top. Aspire to work for a company, and you will never be on top. It's not if you get really lucky... it's if you see open your eyes and see the vast amount of opportunity out there.

And why should he have to go to church and give donations? I'd like to see some actual laws saying he has to obey every whim of his parents, even if he disagrees with it. If that was the case, children couldn't complain about sexual abuse, because they would have to obey every whim of their parents. I know, that's a drastic case, but it does fit the attitude. Just because they are your parents doesn't mean you have to do everything they want. If he was born in the US (which he very well might have not been), he is a citizen even if he is under 18. If that is the case, he does have the right to freedom of religion.

I can tell you have no wisdom at all. You completely misunderstand the meaning of Christianity. By the way, only one who "knows" God can have wisdom. And wisdom and knowledge are not the same: just look it up in the dictionary.

[dnte42]

Heh, that's the way to win people over to your side, all right. :rolleyes: Let the flaming and complete intolerance begin! In all seriousness though, this has been a very civil thread for the most part, let's try to keep it that way. Please?

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
Just to let you know, that $100 was not like a 10% of my money. It was more like 100% . I don't and haven't ever gotten an allowance, and I don't get paid for anything I do. My mom buys me a computer every 2 years, which I am fine with, but still. That $100 was money I had gotten from my grandparents at christmas. I would have been happier if I still had it now.


I don't believe you would've been happier with that $100, as the Bible says "The happiness that money brings is short-lived. And in the long run money can actually bring "many sorrows" (1 Timothy 6:10). Lasting joy comes from knowing God (5:1-6;John 15:11; 16:24).

Yet there is no need to give away $100. If that was all you had, then you should've only gave $10. For example, if you make $150 one week then give $15; if you make $200 then give $20. That's all. It isn't much and it's all God asks for. If you're parents are forcing you to give away too much money, then show them Genesis 28:22 and explain this to them. You can be almost sure they'll be eager to take your point-of-view. :) But don't be dissapointed if they don't; some parents these days. :p

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by Shrek
I can tell you have no wisdom at all. You completely misunderstand the meaning of Christianity. By the way, only one who "knows" God can have wisdom. And wisdom and knowledge are not the same: just look it up in the dictionary.
Only one who knows God can have wisdom? Now that's a load of elephant poo if I've ever stepped in it. Way to be tolerant of other beliefs (and disbeliefs).

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Only one who knows God can have wisdom? Now that's a load of elephant poo if I've ever stepped in it. Way to be tolerant of other beliefs (and disbeliefs).

as a catholic, i agree with you alex.

i don't believe that only christians can be saved.

i believe that people can know god outside the realm of a structured religion and still be saved. or even not know god and still be saved.. etc

ps. i don't capitalize god just cause i don't use caps at all, not cause i believe in more than one. ha

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
as a catholic, i agree with you alex.

i don't believe that only christians can be saved.

i believe that people can know god outside the realm of a structured religion and still be saved. or even not know god and still be saved.. etc

ps. i don't capitalize god just cause i don't use caps at all, not cause i believe in more than one. ha
I have an aunt who is on the extreme side of Catholicism (and the extreme side of a lot of other things as well :)), and she is keen to inform me quite often that because I'm a non-believer, I am going to spend an eternity burning in Hell. I'm just curious how your views (and those of other Catholics and Christians and whatever else) on this topic align with my wacky aunt's.

How I understand it is:

Person A, basically good, Christian --> Eternity in Heaven

Person B, basically good, non-religious --> Eternity in Hell

So hopefully it's easy to understand why I, as an atheist, have a bit of a problem with this situation. :)

[jelloshotsrule]

nah, i don't agree with that

after all, as a catholic, i believe in god's great mercy. therefore, even if i thought it was necessary to believe my set of beliefs to be saved, i'd still think god has mercy on all

but yeah, i think living like christ whether you say "i want to live like christ" or not (ie, loving, helping, etc other people...) is what can save you

whereas a lot of fundamentalist christians think all you really have to do is accept jesus as your savior verbally... whereas i believe it's more in the actions...

after all, other teachings say that god opens your heart to him... so if that's the case, if he didn't open someone's heart to him, he can't hold that against said person, right?

so yeah, i believe religious institution has nothing to do with being "saved"

[losfp]

May I burn in the eternal flames of damnation for being silly enough to post on a thread about religion ;-)

I don't know what I'm at re: religion. I'm 24. I have a job. A girlfriend. Food to eat, a place to stay. An iPod (;-)). All the essentials in life really.

I was vaguely religious when I was a kid - I had some relatives who took me to sunday school, church etc. Then I stopped. My parents were never very religious. They always had the attitude "hey, you believe what you feel is right. Don't just do something because someone else told you to".

I'm at the stage where I don't necessarily believe in god. But hey, what do I know, I am but a feeble human (with an unbelieveable weakness for hi-tech gadgetry). I'm not arrogant enough to suggest that what I believe in now I will always believe. My perceptions will change, my opinions will change. We shall see. Right now, religion is not a big (or indeed, ANY) part of my life. I'm happy with that. If someone else is happy with it - great! As long as you are not directly hurting me or the people I care about, it is NONE OF MY BUSINESS who you pray to at night.

To the original poster... Do what you must - but don't burn any bridges hey?

[saint]

Originally posted by alex_ant

How I understand it is:

Person A, basically good, Christian --> Eternity in Heaven

Person B, basically good, non-religious --> Eternity in Hell

So hopefully it's easy to understand why I, as an atheist, have a bit of a problem with this situation. :)

The thing that many people find hard to understand about heaven/ hell is that we are not saved by the good things that we do. Ultimately, none of us is good enough to be saved, (Romans 3:23-> All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.) and therefore there is no place for us in heaven. :( It is only by accepting God's offer of forgiveness that we can be saved. :)

I don't mean to sound like a TV preacher, but nobody is going to be saved by being "basically good".

[Wash!!]

We humans were and still an alien experiment gone wrong very wrong, and until we become an actual problem to the rest of the universe we are going to kill each other in the name of "RELIGION"

[edited out personal attack against religious folk]

Cheers:D

[dnte42]

We love you too...

Suffer the fools...;)

[Dignan]

ok...can we stop this thread now?

I think everyone has made their points

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by edvniow
Logical argument for the existence of a higher being:

What makes one moment pass into the next?


Logical argument for the existence of a higher being:

What makes one moment pass GAS into the next?

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by saint
The thing that many people find hard to understand about heaven/ hell is that we are not saved by the good things that we do. Ultimately, none of us is good enough to be saved, (Romans 3:23-> All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.) and therefore there is no place for us in heaven. :( It is only by accepting God's offer of forgiveness that we can be saved. :)

I don't mean to sound like a TV preacher, but nobody is going to be saved by being "basically good".
So if I were in the process of accepting God's offer of forgiveness - if I were literally half-way through it, and I got hit by a bus before I could finish - would I still be eligible to be saved? What if I planned to accept forgiveness someday, but I didn't (or wasn't able to) get around to it before I was unexpectedly hit by a bus? I don't mean to sound like a smartass, but I believe it's important to understand the precise logistics of this.

I have a problem with the notion that there is a higher being which is so petty that it will actually essentially force us into an afterlife in which our testicles are slowly eaten by hungry fire ants as we roast above a pit of burning excrement and have our entrails eaten by angry demons simply because we choose not to believe that this higher being exists and to accept its forgiveness. If I didn't know better, I would be worried that this is the fate that awaits me simply because I am unwilling to accept some prick's forgiveness for something I'm not even aware of doing. I could understand how this would make a good fairy tale or fable, but I honestly can't understand why a higher being who is all-powerful would even give half a crap.

Alex

[Shrek]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Only one who knows God can have wisdom? Now that's a load of elephant poo if I've ever stepped in it. Way to be tolerant of other beliefs (and disbeliefs).

It is this way in my religion. I am a Nazarene, a Protestant. And it clearly says this in the Bible, too. Just look at this Biblical definition (this is a word focus from my Bible):

wisdom: The most common use of chokmah is in reference to wisdom in daily living. This is the sense of the word as it is used throughout Proverbs, which teaches that true wisdom involves not only intelligence but also a moral integrity (Prov. 8:7-9). Because a sinful lifestyle is ultimately self-destructive, wisdom is extolled as the only path to a full and fruitful life (Prov. 3:13-26). The source of wisdom is God, who by wisdom, numbered the clouds (Job 38:37), founded the earth (Prov. 3:19), and made the world (Jer. 10:12). He alone can provide men and women with the wisdom to live righteously (Prov. 2:6; Job 11:6).

[jelloshotsrule]

that's the problem with taking the bible literally, word for word.

hmm...

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by Shrek
wisdom: The most common use of chokmah is in reference to wisdom in daily living. This is the sense of the word as it is used throughout Proverbs, which teaches that true wisdom involves not only intelligence but also a moral integrity (Prov. 8:7-9). Because a sinful lifestyle is ultimately self-destructive, wisdom is extolled as the only path to a full and fruitful life (Prov. 3:13-26). The source of wisdom is God, who by wisdom, numbered the clouds (Job 38:37), founded the earth (Prov. 3:19), and made the world (Jer. 10:12). He alone can provide men and women with the wisdom to live righteously (Prov. 2:6; Job 11:6).
Preach to me O wise one!

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Preach to me O wise one!

can i get an amen?!?

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
can i get an amen?!?
That's what I want to know!!

[jelloshotsrule]

praise god! shrek has spoken!

and.


AMEN!

[dnte42]

Preach it brotha! Hallelujah! And now for something completely different...

Originally posted by alex_ant
I have a problem with the notion that there is a higher being which is so petty that it will actually essentially force us into an afterlife in which our testicles are slowly eaten by hungry fire ants as we roast above a pit of burning excrement and have our entrails eaten by angry demons simply because we choose not to believe that this higher being exists and to accept its forgiveness. If I didn't know better, I would be worried that this is the fate that awaits me simply because I am unwilling to accept some prick's forgiveness for something I'm not even aware of doing. I could understand how this would make a good fairy tale or fable, but I honestly can't understand why a higher being who is all-powerful would even give half a crap.

Now, first of all, as I understand it, the Christian notion of Hell has nothing to do with your testicles. Hell is a separation from God, emotionally, spiritually, etc. This may not sound so bad but after standing in the presence of an all-powerful divine being, going back out of His presence would be horrible (which is why you have to ask his forgiveness on earth, and you have to decide to here, becasue in his presence you would be a bit...baised). I'd sasy more, but I'm losing my focus and I have to go to class. Perhaps more later (yes, that's a threat, not a promise ;) )

[jelloshotsrule]

pretty well put there dnte.... it's certainly not a physical thing per se... i mean, because we won't have our bodies anymore.

and the more i go on, the more i believe that while hell exists, and certainly purgatory... i feel god's mercy extends to all...

which in theory would lead to a "do anything you want, god will forgive you" attitude... but ahh well. that's how i feel. and yet i don't think that attitude is the way to go.

certainly hard to understand/believe/etc....

[FattyMembrane]

Originally posted by Shrek
Yet there is no need to give away $100. If that was all you had, then you should've only gave $10. For example, if you make $150 one week then give $15; if you make $200 then give $20. That's all.

christianity is not at all about figuring your tithe down to the last cent. for Christ's sake, you'll scare the boy off christianity for good. :D

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by FattyMembrane
christianity is not at all about figuring your tithe down to the last cent. for Christ's sake, you'll scare the boy off christianity for good. :D

yeah, really. not to mention the fact that i don't think scem0 doesn't know how to find 10% of a number....

:rolleyes:

[Shrek]

Originally posted by FattyMembrane


christianity is not at all about figuring your tithe down to the last cent. for Christ's sake, you'll scare the boy off christianity for good. :D

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


yeah, really. not to mention the fact that i don't think scem0 doesn't know how to find 10% of a number....

:rolleyes:

:p Whatever! :mad:

[Wash!!]

The bible was first written to keep a record of what has happen, then it turn into a way to control the "sheep"...I mean the people, it's all about control of the information.

Just like now in our times "he who controls the information owns the world" now we have cable, satelite, internet, you named back then only an few "chosen ones" even knew how to read.

Like I said before all religions are hipocrates they all say "I shall not Kill" ( if you don't belive in my religion die you ********** infidel) give me a break. Look what's happening to the chatolic church and its child molester club.:mad:

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Wash!!
Like I said before all religions are hipocrates they all say "I shall not Kill" ( if you don't belive in my religion die you ********** infidel) give me a break. Look what's happening to the chatolic church and its child molester club.:mad:

just curious which religions say "die you ****ing infidel" if you don't believe in them.... once you enlighten me on that, i'll be able to take you more seriously.


as for the catholic church and the child molesters. they handled it terribly. no excuses. there are child molesters in every group, however. it's not just the church (not only the catholic church either you know) that has molesters. so while the church was wrong in how it handled things. and i think they should adopt the one mistake you're gone attitude... it's only because of their status as "the church" that the number of folks molesting is so high profile.

[dnte42]

Yeah, that's for sure. Forgiveness is wonderful and all, if you can forgive someone for molesting your child, or yourself, I think that is mindblowing. However, it is dangerous to let a priest keep his position after that. If a church is going to be a community, it can hardly be headed by someone who has lost the trust of the congregation...

Now back to your regularly scheduled bashing and soforth...

[Wash!!]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


just curious which religions say "die you ****ing infidel" if you don't believe in them.... once you enlighten me on that, i'll be able to take you more seriously.


as for the catholic church and the child molesters. they handled it terribly. no excuses. there are child molesters in every group, however. it's not just the church (not only the catholic church either you know) that has molesters. so while the church was wrong in how it handled things. and i think they should adopt the one mistake you're gone attitude... it's only because of their status as "the church" that the number of folks molesting is so high profile.

They all do in some form or oder not in the exact same words but they implied no less. Chatolics with their "Crusades", "Inquisition". Muslums with their "holy war"
Protestant, Christians, name me one religion that has not done it.

[jelloshotsrule]

2 things.

1. those things are in the past. they are mistakes. injustices. terrible things. etc. but they are in the past. the molestation thing is more current, but alas, people are people. they are scummy. there are scum in every group. you can't generalize the whole group by some bad people... even if it's some of the leaders of said group.

2. everyone is a hypocrite. ask moxiemike. he'll be happy to oblige on that issue i'm sure. ;)

[Wash!!]

We are all hypocrates becuase it's 65 million years of evolution embeded in our genes that we use for our own survival.

And been hypocrate is one of those defenses, just look at nature for a sample when a lion takes over a pride it goes out an kills and eats the cubs the other male lion, but the females do noting about, then they go an mate with it.

Its just basic survival instint the only difference between them and us is that we think about.

[diorio]

No religion is perfect. All religions have tried to force other people to be in their religion or persecute against them. This includes Christianity, Protestant, Islamic, Jewish, Hinduism, and more. Everyone should try to be tolerant of one anothers religion and forgive for past crimes. Yes, past crimes. The crusades were in the past, the inquisition was in the past, yet people talk about them like they happened yesterday. Get over it. Focus on the present, and worry about your own religion.:rolleyes:

[Shrek]

This is madness! Wash! is giving us nothing but hate speech! Just to let you know, I reported him. ;)

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Shrek
This is madness! Wash! is giving us nothing but hate speech! Just to let you know, I reported him. ;)

i don't really see the hate speech myself.... but ok

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by Wash!!


They all do in some form or oder not in the exact same words but they implied no less. Chatolics with their "Crusades", "Inquisition". Muslums with their "holy war"
Protestant, Christians, name me one religion that has not done it.


Protestant Christians with what? What are you saying here? How are prostestand christians violant? Im not saying they are not Im simply asking you what you know. Wheres thier crusade?...or holy war?

[Shrek]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


i don't really see the hate speech myself.... but ok

Look at this:

Originally posted by Wash!!
We humans were and still an alien experiment gone wrong very wrong, and until we become an actual problem to the rest of the universe we are going to kill each other in the name of "RELIGION"

[edited out of personal attack against religious folk]

Cheers:D

No further comments. ;)

[jelloshotsrule]

that's not hate speech. it's called his opinion and take on things

dont' be so dang sensitive.

[Shrek]

arn/dukestreet thought it was. :p

[Durandal7]

I don't see what was so bad about what he said. Of course mainstream religions don't kill each other in Holy Wars anymore but there will always be a group of people who kill others in the name of a religion.

[jelloshotsrule]

ok, but that post was a while back... why didn't you mention something after it was posted, rather than a whole page later... after other responses by you.

makes it a little hard to tell what you're referring to... oh well

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Durandal7
I don't see what was so bad about what he said. Of course mainstream religions don't kill each other in Holy Wars anymore but there will always be a group of people who kill others in the name of a religion.

arn/dukestreet thought it was. :p


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

i agree durandal. oh well

[dnte42]

Originally posted by krossfyter



Protestant Christians with what? What are you saying here? How are prostestand christians violant? Im not saying they are not Im simply asking you what you know. Wheres thier crusade?...or holy war?

I think there were some ugly goings on during the Reformation...but apart from that, I think the record is cleaner than most (not to imply we are better or anything . :p )

[bidge]

Hey, this thread has sort of turned into a argumentive one about religions, reread the first post, we're trying to help this guy out, not argue about religion, save that for another thread.

scem0 is confused enough as it is without having to try and get through this argument.

Yet again, reread the first post!!!!

[jelloshotsrule]

what better way to help him "choose" a religion than to discuss the ins and outs of the various ones that various people here practice/know about/etc?

some overly sensitive people make it "argumentative"... i don't see it that way though.

[3rdpath]

scem0, its in your best interest to question religion. why? because "religion" has been used to justify war, theft, murder and other atrocities for centuries.

what really matters is faith...and thats non-denominational.

what do YOU believe in? if there is a god, what kind of life would that god want you to lead? these are huge questions that only you truly know the answers to...or will find your answers to in time. you might find the answers in the bible or the koran or in a mosque or while wrapping your hands with tafillin(sp) or in a remote forest. the point is-you have to look for it...

nothing worthwhile in life is going to knock on your door...
not god
not love
not success( as you define it)
not happiness
not health

[bidge]

Originally posted by 3rdpath

nothing worthwhile in life is going to knock on your door...
not god
not love
not success( as you define it)
not happiness
not health

Awesome, that is a very good point to contrast his sad view about not believing in God unless he comes knocking on the door.

Awesome

[Judo]

GRrrrrr I find Shrek's and Krossfyter's views very arrogant!

Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

Hi scem0, my advice would be to just keep talking to your Mum tell her you don't like going to church, tell her why you don't like religion and ask her why she does, just make sure the conversations don't get to heated. Also keep reading up on religion and philosophy (have you read Sophies World by Jostein Gaardener it's an excelent and easy to read book which is a great starter into the world of philosophy), you may not find any answers to your questions but it can be very interesting.

My last piece of advice would be where ever your life leads you JUST HAVE FUN!

[Shrek]

Originally posted by Judo
GRrrrrr I find Shrek's and Krossfyter's views very arrogant!

Oh hush! As Christians, we're doing our job. 'Nuff said. :p

[diorio]

Originally posted by Shrek
This is madness! Wash! is giving us nothing but hate speech! Just to let you know, I reported him. ;)

Yes, the part where he said:

Like I said before all religions are hipocrates they all say "I shall not Kill" ( if you don't belive in my religion die you ********** infidel) give me a break. Look what's happening to the chatolic church and its child molester club.


Now, I'm catholic, and I don't like the preist situation either, but give me a break.

:rolleyes:

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by diorio
Yes, the part where he said:

Like I said before all religions are hipocrates they all say "I shall not Kill" ( if you don't belive in my religion die you ********** infidel) give me a break. Look what's happening to the chatolic church and its child molester club.

Now, I'm catholic, and I don't like the preist situation either, but give me a break.

:rolleyes:

now sure if you're saying you agree that's hate speech or not...

i don't think it's hate speech. i think it's his misguided, ignorant opinion of religions... and i already gave him a rebuttal for that before it was edited. and since then he's been a lot more levelheaded in his posts. i think...

[dnte42]

Hate speech...maybe. Inflammitory comments that will likely offend, of course. Blanket stereotypical statements don't often go over too well with the wrong mix of people...

[jelloshotsrule]

i agree, by all means. but i think ignorance is muc different than hate speech. had he wished specific harm to certain groups or something, that's different. but to me he was just making dumb generalizations, and so i rebutted him. you're better off rebutting than just censoring. in my opinion.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
. . .in my opinion.

Yeah, in your opinion. :rolleyes:

[the Otter]

It seems to me that a lot of the people responding to the initial post have good arguments, but that’s all they are: good arguments. I’m not a Christian because someone told me to be; in fact, when I was 12 years old, I stopped going to my parents’ church for exactly the same reasons scem0 mentions. However, when I was 16, I learned for myself that God exists—not because someone convinced me that he does, but because God Himself told me he does, and continues to reaffirm my faith (verbally and otherwise) as often as I need to ask.

Lots of people go to the Bible looking for God’s word, and that’s great, because that’s where it is; but that’s not all that God has ever said. If you really want to find out whether or not God exists, check out this site (http://www.mormon.org/freeBookofMormon/1,10120,2071-1,00.html). This book has totally changed my life. Just fill out the form, and you get a copy for the low, low price of $29.95! (Kidding. It’s actually free.) :D

And if I may make a suggestion, let someone hand-deliver it. You can get it via snail mail (there’s a radio button at the button of the page), but hand-delivery is usually quicker (and more helpful; if you happen to have trouble understanding something, you’ve got someone to call).

Anyway, I’ve blabbed enough for now, but I’ll finish up with this: I’m not asking you to take my word for this; I’m offering a way for you to find out for yourself. It is possible to know if God exists, because I know it—and you can, too.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Shrek
Yeah, in your opinion. :rolleyes:

and clearly i'm not the only one with said opinion

and are you catholic? if i'm catholic and i'm not seeing it as hate speech and you're not and you see it as such, then something's a bit off eh? :rolleyes:

[diorio]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


now sure if you're saying you agree that's hate speech or not...

i don't think it's hate speech. i think it's his misguided, ignorant opinion of religions... and i already gave him a rebuttal for that before it was edited. and since then he's been a lot more levelheaded in his posts. i think...

It's just the part about the Catholic child molester club that got me. I'm Catholic and don't usually get offended when my religion is critisized, but he made it sound like every Catholic was a pedifial.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by diorio
It's just the part about the Catholic child molester club that got me. I'm Catholic and don't usually get offended when my religion is critisized, but he made it sound like every Catholic was a pedifial.

i'm catholic too, and as i said, i already rebutted him. and he didn't say anything about it again

any intelligent person realizes that not all of any group are represented by some of the bad seeds.

plus, that whole thing has gotten tired. what most people don't get (non catholics) when they attack catholics via the molesting priests is that most catholics are more pissed about the whole situation than anyone else.

that's my take.

[diorio]

Well, I was pretty pissed off, embarrassed, and disgusted when all of that was going on, and I agree that there are bad seeds that do not represent the rest of society, but they should still factor in other peoples opinions besides their own. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but its the way you present it that justifies you as intelligent or not.

ND

[jelloshotsrule]

i hear ya. well said concerning the opinion vs intelligence thing.

i was disgusted when i heard. and kept hearing. person after person. i think the pope needs to pressure the cardinals/bishops here to take up the 1 strike policy thing, since they haven't seemed to be able to do it on their own...

anyhoo. good discussion for the most part

[diorio]

I'm not sure, but I'll bet if there weren't such a shortage of priests, the pope would have offenders thrown out of the preisthood immediately, unfortuanately there are hardly enough preists to go around, so he's giving them second chances.

[jelloshotsrule]

that seems very likely....

and the pope himself is not exactly in the best of health.... hmm

[FattyMembrane]

i think schem0 stoped reading this thread a long time ago. notice that he has not posted in about 2-3 pages. i cant blame him. what hope for finding God does he have when those who claim to know him already can't stop bickering over minutiae? i think that we've probably done more harm than good.

[jelloshotsrule]

we can't help him find god really. just tell him about our experiences with/without god...

not sure what you expect we can do for him.

[mischief]

But it's still damn funny.

http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~jdavies/bode/cheech/ch_maker.html

[Shrek]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


and clearly i'm not the only one with said opinion

and are you catholic? if i'm catholic and i'm not seeing it as hate speech and you're not and you see it as such, then something's a bit off eh? :rolleyes:

No, I'm a Nazarene; a Protestant. ;)

[Durandal7]

Originally posted by Shrek


Yeah, in your opinion. :rolleyes:
This is getting ridiculous. What's the point in posting your opinion if there's a chance that someone will disagree and push for it to be censored? I say we create a forum for discussions like this that would be more loosely moderated.

[scem0]

This thread was only good in the beginning. Tempers started flaring towards the end...

[krossfyter]

lol

[sickboy_osX]

Let me just say I know how you feel.

I was raised mormon, and it wasnt until I was 18, that my parents released me to do my own thing, Granted I had already been using Heroin for 4 years, and Drinking alcohol for 5. And smoking for 4 or 5.

Then I got Ex-Communicated for somthing I didnt do, (I got accused of forcing some girl to sleep with me, and I dont have to force anyone to do that I just have to work the MoJo :-D) But I know how you feel, both my girlfreind and I have left the Mormon Church, and Decided to be Religious in our own way. This is how we are going to raise our kids when we get married and have them.

Organized Religion is a crutch for the weak who can not handle the reality of this thing we call life. I have never been happier since I left the church and have been able to think on my own.

I am off the Heroin Now, and I am thank ful for that, but I will never forget the day I went to Welfare Square in Salt Lake City, and they told me I was a Homeless Drug Addicted Man, because "God was Punishing me and I was not worthy of their help" granted this was in Febuary and I had no coat and shoes that were falling apart.

I hope you find what makes you happy, and dont expect to feeel happy until your happy with the decisions you make.

As for your parents, they will always love you, they might not love what you do, but they will love you, it is what they are paid to do.

[jd73]

Hello all...

I read this entire thread with great interest and just wanted to offer my $.02. There were a lot of interesting and some thoughtful replies to scem0's original posts (and some not so interesting). I'll get right to the point; what impressed me about scem0's posts was his intellectual honesty and what seemed to be a real, genuine search for meaning and relevance in a religion. I also noticed that this kid is extremely bright and has obviously thought a great deal about (and wrestled with) some of the points he makes.

With these things in mind, I'd like to suggest some good books for him (and any others who want some great reading on the questions he poses).

One is called "Christianity For Skeptics" by Steve Kumar (Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., copyright 2000); it's a very short but useful book that examines questions and issues like these:

-Does God exist?
-If there is a God, why is there evil?
-Is Atheism rational?
-Is the Bible the Word of God?
-Christianity and comparative religion

The other is called "The Genesis Question" by Hugh Ross (1998). This one is pretty specific - it's subtitle is "Scientific advances and the accuracy of Genesis" - but there's a lot of stuff in this book that deals directly with many of the issues scem0 raised in some of his posts. The guy who wrote it starts the book off with his own life story as it relates to his goal of disproving the Bible and Christianity in general - he made a lot of the same arguments found in many of these posts, only to be disproved later with careful and objective study of the Bible's claims (and let me tell you, this guy has done some serious research).

Both of these books are pretty short, easy reads - especially the first one. I found them both at my local Barnes & Noble.

Again, just my $.02 - thanks for your time!

[the Otter]

sickboy —

Just want to apologize on behalf of the so-called “Mormons.” Sounds like you had a really rough experience. I can’t even imagine members of The Church of Jesus Christ expressing the level of hatred that seems to have come out in both of the situations you mention, but hey, you were there, I wasn’t. Goodness knows, being a member of a church doesn’t make someone a good person. There’s a lot of bad “Mormons” (Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, etc.) out there.

I just want to let you know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not , as you put it, “a crutch for the weak who can not handle the reality of this thing we call life.” I’ve been to a lot of churches, and a lot of them do fit this description; but the reason I became a Christian (or, as some people say, a “Mormon”) is because it wasn’t like all the other churches out there. Every church I’d ever been to told me that God was unknowable and that we couldn’t understand him if we tried. It wasn’t until I found The Church of Jesus Christ that I learned that not all religion is a crutch; there is at least one Church that does encourage you to think for yourself, to “study it out in your mind.”

God doesn’t want us to be a bunch of automotrons, and unfortunately, that’s the impression a lot of people get from a lot of churches (including The Church of Jesus Christ). Let me finish by explaining something to you: the person who told you that “God was Punishing [you] and [you were] not worthy of their help” needs to repent. The person that excommunicated you—if that excommunication was for the reason you state, and not for all the other things you openly admit to doing—needs to repent. And in a more general sense, we all need to repent, so that through the grace of Jesus Christ, we can be forgiven for our sins and return to Him and our Father in Heaven.

That’s my 2¢. :)

www.mormon.org

[sickboy_osX]

I relize that not all mormons are bad. My girlfreinds parents who are die hard mormons are the most awesome people i have ever met. And my mom, bless her soul, has survived a fight with bres, cervical, and Ovarian cancers. and is doing well, My mom raised me with the best intentions, and turned me into the man I am wortking twords, I am more dis-illusioned with the ledership of the church, and how they conduct them selves with the "we are better than you" attiudes (I have tattoos and i have been chastized since i got them when I got my first one at the age of 16) Some of my familys closest friends are Mormons, and I love them, the Utah mormon is a community I am glad i never was a member of. The whole church talks about being an individual and being your own person and I have done that, I am an awesome guy, (Or at least thats what they tell me). I am head over heels in love with a girl who is talking about my nipples in detail. Anyways, i dont know if this makes any sense, but i tried, email me if you would like to discuss these issues offline.

[the Otter]

sickboy—

Nah. Feel free to e-mail me if you want—I’m always good at talking :D —but I don’t have anything that needs to be private. You’re right that the Church discourages tattoos, but my concern was mostly that you thought the entire Church was like the people you mentioned in your earlier post.

As for the leadership, I’m sorry you feel that way. I can’t say I’ve ever seen the “holier-than-thou” attitude you mention, and believe me—I’m far from perfect. (I’m sorry to say, but I’m no stranger to a meeting with the bishop, if you know what I mean.) Still, no one’s ever been anything but nice to me. In fact, I’m in my ward’s Young Men’s Presidency now, and the biggest problem we’re facing is that the young men from a few years back were never called on anything (eg. alcohol, drugs, fornication, etc.), and we now have to try to get through to their little brothers, who have grown up with that kind of example. Bottom line: our problem is exactly opposite the one you indicate.

Anyway, that’s enough for this. As I said, I just wanted to make sure you weren’t one of those former members of the Church that went around preaching that we’re all evil. I guess on some level that’s true, but we’re certainly no more so than any other church out there. ;)

[sickboy_osX]

It is kind of scary, because I see my younger brother doing things I used to do, if Not worse (i.e. Exposing himself to a female in class or lighting dog poop on fire ion a bag on someones porch)

I just hope he learns from his brothers mistakes.

[TimDaddy]

Originally posted by krossfyter



sometimes i think that christians can be real punks man ... real hard and judgemental etc. etc.

Forgive me, I always screw up when I try and quote a person, The Bible, or anything else. But, anyway, I beleive Ghandi discussed that he found Christianity to be a very appealing religion. He said he would consider converting to Christianity if not for one thing: Christians. And to think I learned this from our preacher at a Christian church. And, he wasn't harping on us, saying that he was better than us. This statement was followed by many example of how he has been judgmental of people in the name of God. I like that honesty. Jesus is the only perfect one, but from many churches that I have visited or listened to on the radio, a lot of these preachers think that they are perfect and that Christians should strive to be like them.