Xbox 360 demos on Macs

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

As has been long reported, Microsoft's Xbox development system are PowerMac G5s. (photo (http://www.macned.nl/news.php?id=1835))

Indeed, Xbox 360 demos being shown (http://news.com.com/2100-1043-5706658.html?tag=tb) by Microsoft are running on PowerMac G5s.

"We purchased a number of Apple G5's because very specific hardware components of the G5 allow developers to emulate some of the technology behind future Xbox products and services," a Microsoft spokesperson said in a statement. "This is an interim development tool that will be replaced with a more powerful and comprehensive solution later."

Both the PowerMac and Xbox sport PowerPC-based processors from IBM.

[mcadam]

That's kind of hilarious, nice thing to throw in the face of your average mac-bashing friend... but I suppose there's not a bit of apple software on it though?!

A

[buryyourbrideau]

ha bill gates crossed over to the "dark side"

well i guess all those pics of G5's with microsoft stickers were not fake

[Steven1621]

and now we see a flood of new games heading to the mac, taking away another reason why people think the pc is better.

[ebunton]

A bit of a oddity for Microsoft no? To have their latest weapon for world domination being developed with Apple computers?

Does this mean that it would be easy to port Xbox 360 games to Mac?

[Slipperyskates]

Talk about your irony...

Wouldn't it be cool if new Xbox games worked on Powermacs?

[budugu]

IBM might introduce a new PowerPC workstation based on Power5, Which supports virtualization? So is MSFT planning to make their OS for IBM Power (30% of the market share in Big iron) based servers (b'cos XP and server 2003 largely share the same code base)? :rolleyes:

I doubt that these games will move to mac any more than what they do now. Most of the code will be based on MSFT - XNA (own api/Framework for gamedevelopment) + DirectX - so porting the code will to next to impossible! :(

Last but not the least Windows XP/Longhorn for Macs! :D

[micvog]

What's with the "Xenon Technology" mentioned both on the link and also on the Ars article? I thought Xenon was Intel, not IBM. :confused:

[crees!]

This is an interim development tool that will be replaced with a more powerful and comprehensive solution later. Sounds like faster PM's to me :D :D :D

Okay, I'm kidding... KIDDING!

[*Y*]

Windows XP on a Mac. Best of both worlds. :D

[picklescott]

Windows XP on a Mac. Best of both worlds. :D



? are you kidding

[Freg3000]

What's with the "Xenon Technology" mentioned both on the link and also on the Ars article? I thought Xenon was Intel, not IBM. :confused:

Xeon = Processor from Intel.

Xenon = Codename for XBOX 360.

[budugu]

What's with the "Xenon Technology" mentioned both on the link and also on the Ars article? I thought Xenon was Intel, not IBM. :confused:

Xeon - Intel (IA32 /x64)
Xenon - Some vague code word for "Technology" behind XBox 360 :confused:

[iindigo]

Windows XP on a Mac. Best of both worlds. :D


Gah, nasty! That leaves a rancid taste in my mouth...

[danielboy]

Windows XP on a Mac. Best of both worlds. :D
I think you got it reversed.

OS X on a PC. Best of both worlds.

[VicMacs]

so we can run xbox games on the new pbg5?

[CyberB0b]

So, I guess for the operating system they have 2 choices:

1. Use OS X
2. Use a Windows port for PPC

Choice 1 would be awesome. The more likely choice 2 is kind of a downer. I purchase PPC hardware to block any chance of installing those archaic windows operating systems. Getting one step closer to polluting my mac makes me sad.

[pimentoLoaf]

The g5's are considered and "interim development tool" -- you know, Apple develops new stuff using a Cray supercomputer... I wonder if Billy-boy is finally going to take the plunge and liberate some of his cold cash for one of 'em. :D

[arn]

so we can run xbox games on the new pbg5?

Seems it opens the door to good Mac-based Xbox 360 emulators in the future. If people can reverse engineer the final Xbox.

arn

[iJon]

and now we see a flood of new games heading to the mac, taking away another reason why people think the pc is better.
I highly doubt this will mean more games for us. Plus from looking at these specs these consoles are going to be way more powerful in the game department then our G5's.

jon

[javanate]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

As has been long reported, Microsoft's Xbox development system are PowerMac G5s. (photo (http://www.macned.nl/news.php?id=1835))

Indeed, Xbox 360 demos being shown (http://news.com.com/2100-1043-5706658.html?tag=tb) by Microsoft are running on PowerMac G5s.



Both the PowerMac and Xbox sport PowerPC-based processors from IBM.

So much for Powermac sales, why did they bother with that update when things so much better are obviously 6 months away

[letsGoOn2]

"This is an interim development tool that will be replaced with a more powerful and comprehensive solution later."

So, in other words, they're waiting for the dual 3.0GHz G5 too?

[darkmatter05]

MWAHAHAHH microsoft has to use the apple's g5!!! HAHAHAH thats so freakin funny!

[AidenShaw]

1. Use OS X
2. Use a Windows port for PPC

Microsoft sold and shipped Windows NT 3 and NT 4 for PowerPC computers. Windows NT runs (or has been supported on) x86, PPC, Alpha, MIPS, Itanium and x64.

Support for PPC was dropped at the time Service Pack 2 for NT 4 was released. There were very few applications for PPC NT systems, so little interest.

I would imagine that Microsoft kept a few people busy keeping the PPC code running for Win2k and XP. It would be worth it, just to make sure that the code base stayed more portable.

The idea that XP has always run on PPC also makes the decision to go to PPC for xb360 much more reasonable. They already had the portable OS, so switching ISAs wouldn't be a huge problem.

[AidenShaw]

MWAHAHAHH microsoft has to use the apple's g5!!! HAHAHAH thats so freakin funny!

Or maybe it just shows that Microsoft is a mature corporation, not one that makes decisions based on "religious" issues or the ego of the CEO.

[Poff]

Seems it opens the door to good Mac-based Xbox 360 emulators in the future. If people can reverse engineer the final Xbox.

arn

exactly what I'm thinking too.
It would be great to be able to pop up the emulator on any iMac G5 sold a year from now, and get respectable framerates on any 360-game you bought.

Microsoft would even earn on it. They loose money on consoles, and earn money on games. They should actually release the emulator! http://forums.macrumors.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[RupertJ]

exactly what I'm thinking too.
It would be great to be able to pop up the emulator on any iMac G5 sold a year from now, and get respectable framerates on any 360-game you bought.

It just means it'll be easier to do than were the XBox 360 based on a different processor. It doesn't mean it's likely to happen.

Look at the current scenario. The XBox has a whole load of stock PC hardware in it, but has anyone made an XBox emulator for the PC? Nope.

[jicon]

Probably $500-600 (CDN) for an XBOX360...

Yet Apple sell a 2.7Ghz G5 for $4300????

Microsoft will likely incur a bit of a loss on the sale of the hardware, but Apple must make money hand over fist with the sales of PowerMacs.

[scu]

This is big news and yet there are few comments. Obviously most post here while at work. ;)

A couple of things. If it is true that Microsoft is using the same chips then this is good news in two respects.

First of all IBM can now lower the price on these chips since they need to produce many more. Apple will be able to put them in the iMacs in the next 6 months.

Secondly Apple choose the upgrade with slower chips. This tells me that they feel confident they can delay big upgardes on the PowerMac and make big bucks with cheaper chips, while milking the success of the iPod and iMac for a few more months. This also means that Apple is working on a big jump in speed via dual core and they needed a few more months to get up to speed and buy some time. They know that the new dual core PowerMacs will sale like hot cakes when they come out. It is important to have them fully stocked to maximize profits in the first or second quarter of Fiscal 2006.

[caveman_uk]

Probably $500-600 (CDN) for an XBOX360...

Yet Apple sell a 2.7Ghz G5 for $4300????

Microsoft will likely incur a bit of a loss on the sale of the hardware, but Apple must make money hand over fist with the sales of PowerMacs.
For microsoft the console itself is a loss-leader - the real money is in the games. For Apple it's reversed - they make their money on the hardware and their software is very keenly priced.

[lostinblue]

People at microsoft are not much different than us. When they need to get something done they use a mac too.

[aldo]

This is big news and yet there are few comments. Obviously most post here while at work. ;)

A couple of things. If it is true that Microsoft is using the same chips then this is good news in two respects.

First of all IBM can now lower the price on these chips since they need to produce many more. Apple will be able to put them in the iMacs in the next 6 months.

Secondly Apple choose the upgrade with slower chips. This tells me that they feel confident they can delay big upgardes on the PowerMac and make big bucks with cheaper chips, while milking the success of the iPod and iMac for a few more months. This also means that Apple is working on a big jump in speed via dual core and they needed a few more months to get up to speed and buy some time. They know that the new dual core PowerMacs will sale like hot cakes when they come out. It is important to have them fully stocked to maximize profits in the first or second quarter of Fiscal 2006.

IBM is designing the chips. Microsoft is fabricating them 'themselves' (probably outsourced it to someone else).

If this lays the groundwork for a triple-core 3GHz iMac with graphics anyway near that of the Xbox 360 then it is going to be an awesome machine.

[jrv3034]

People at microsoft are not much different than us. When they need to get something done they use a mac too.

Nice!

I agree that making some sort of emulator for Mac to run 360 games would rock, but we'd all need some seriously powerful graphics card upgrades, no?

The XBOX 360 is probably the first MS product I'm really lusting after. :eek:

[Peace]

IBM is designing the chips. Microsoft is fabricating them 'themselves' (probably outsourced it to someone else).

If this lays the groundwork for a triple-core 3GHz iMac with graphics anyway near that of the Xbox 360 then it is going to be an awesome machine.

I keep reading this here.Can someone please post a link that proves Microsoft is fabricating this chip? Or if they are outsourcing it,who ( other than IBM ) is doing it ?

[Poff]

Probably $500-600 (CDN) for an XBOX360...

Yet Apple sell a 2.7Ghz G5 for $4300????

Microsoft will likely incur a bit of a loss on the sale of the hardware, but Apple must make money hand over fist with the sales of PowerMacs.

Again, those are not G5's. Even though they are made by the same manufacturer, and are based on the same architecture, they are not the same kind of processors.

[thatwendigo]

Probably $500-600 (CDN) for an XBOX360...

Yet Apple sell a 2.7Ghz G5 for $4300????

Microsoft will likely incur a bit of a loss on the sale of the hardware, but Apple must make money hand over fist with the sales of PowerMacs.

You're looking at this with blinders on.

The Xbox360 is a limited application computer with some very specialized design work that makes it good at a handful of things. Most interesting is its parallelization and massive vector calculation capabilities, which have long been the focus of Apple and IBM's designs. The CPU itself is a multi-core chip feeding multiple vector sub-units (ala AltiVec and SSE) that will handle much of the rendering needs of a game. The GPU is a next generation R5xx that uses main memory and a tiny dab of dedicated memory, not a full-fledged commercial graphics card.

A PowerMac is (usually) a dual processor machine with a wider range of applications, much more expansion capability, and a need to address more tasks than the XBox360. It has system overhead in the form of a full-fledged operating system, I/O paths, and other such drains that the console won't have much need of. In addition, the PowerMac is extensible through the addition of programs that don't have to be specifically vetted by Apple, unlike the DRMed console. There's also the small point that Apple makes most of their money on hardware and puts that back into software, while Microsoft does things the other way around and doesn't care if the physical unit of the XBox360 loses them money.

[budugu]

I keep reading this here.Can someone please post a link that proves Microsoft is fabricating this chip? Or if they are outsourcing it,who ( other than IBM ) is doing it ?

http://www7.tomshardware.com/game/200505121/xbox_360-05.html

and 100 other places....

[buryyourbrideau]

Windows XP on a Mac. Best of both worlds. :D

ha wrong thing to say. NO WAY

[SurfAddict]

You're looking at this with blinders on.

The Xbox360 is a limited application computer with some very specialized design work that makes it good at a handful of things. Most interesting is its parallelization and massive vector calculation capabilities, which have long been the focus of Apple and IBM's designs. The CPU itself is a multi-core chip feeding multiple vector sub-units (ala AltiVec and SSE) that will handle much of the rendering needs of a game. The GPU is a next generation R5xx that uses main memory and a tiny dab of dedicated memory, not a full-fledged commercial graphics card.

A PowerMac is (usually) a dual processor machine with a wider range of applications, much more expansion capability, and a need to address more tasks than the XBox360. It has system overhead in the form of a full-fledged operating system, I/O paths, and other such drains that the console won't have much need of. In addition, the PowerMac is extensible through the addition of programs that don't have to be specifically vetted by Apple, unlike the DRMed console. There's also the small point that Apple makes most of their money on hardware and puts that back into software, while Microsoft does things the other way around and doesn't care if the physical unit of the XBox360 loses them money.

Yay someone else figured it out to, anyhow guys these chips are not g5's please quit thinking that they are and that we can magically have them crossed into Powermacs, I say that with a tear in my eye since I wish it could be done too. But these chips are owned by microsoft is my understanding, MS owns this chip design therefore wouldn't apple have to lisence it from them if they wanted this exact core cpu (which their not going to but just to state the obvious). However the design can probably be altered a bit to be considered a new design that would work in apple land. Much like I think IBM did for MS, for some reason it seems a little hard to believe that they pulled some entirely new processor design out of their ass that no one new about as opposed to using elements of the cell. In regards to what you said arn about reverse engineering the 360 it seems like that would take two tonsof processing power for a mac to be able to do that so ya it probably could be done but its seems kind of unrealistic at the moment

[budugu]

Microsoft sold and shipped Windows NT 3 and NT 4 for PowerPC computers. Windows NT runs (or has been supported on) x86, PPC, Alpha, MIPS, Itanium and x64.

Support for PPC was dropped at the time Service Pack 2 for NT 4 was released. There were very few applications for PPC NT systems, so little interest.



Forget it... NT is dead ... and they are not going to use any of that old muddy code any where! so if they are going to do any thing ... they are going to design a new Xbox development board and sell it to selected authorized developers much like (Sony/nintendo)...that is much more viable solution ( and can make huge money and completely be in control of who can develop!) .... this the final solution .... contrary to some one else said on the thread ... the final solution is not a 3.0Ghz DCore Powermac ....but a designed development board with software!

[SurfAddict]

Sorry for the double post but here is the link you requested "Peace" http://www.gamespot.com/features/6124293/p-3.html third paragraph down

[Peace]

http://www7.tomshardware.com/game/200505121/xbox_360-05.html

and 100 other places....

Thanks for the link...

From that article :
With specs this impressive, it's easy to see why a few of us wondered how they planned to make a profit, given that they were already operating at a loss as a result of hardware costs for the current platform. "This time, we own the silicon [chip designs]. We can have [the chips] manufactured at different foundries to keep costs down."

Nowhere does that article say or imply Microsoft would be making the chips themselves..They will outsource it to "different foundries"..

What "different foundries" have the capability of mass producing the custom PowerPC chip?

other than IBM..

[jiv3turkey748]

Windows XP on a Mac. Best of both worlds. :D

ummm id rather osx on a pc but even thats not as good as a mac

[jiv3turkey748]

People at microsoft are not much different than us. When they need to get something done they use a mac too.

hahaha :D

[AidenShaw]

Forget it... NT is dead ... and they are not going to use any of that old muddy code any where! so if they are going to do any thing ...

NT is dead?

What about the 64-bit NT known as "Windows XP x64 Edition" ? Dead? What about the 64-bit NT known as "Windows Server 2003 x64"?

I'm not saying that they'll get some old NT3 code running for the Xbox360 - they'll take the newest 64-bit NT stuff with the hyperthreaded scheduler enhancements and customize that for the console.

[biohazard6969]

will you be able to put an OS on the 360 so that you could then maybe hook it up to the monitor and use it as a normal computer? and does this mean that you could also put OS X onto it?

[AidenShaw]

Nowhere does that article say or imply Microsoft would be making the chips themselves..They will outsource it to "different foundries"..

What "different foundries" have the capability of mass producing the custom PowerPC chip?

other than IBM..

AMD, Intel, TI, TSCM, ....

The claim "Microsoft will fabricate it" is poorly worded.

"Microsoft will have it fabricated" is better - the important thing is the Microsoft owns the designs for the CPU and GPU, and is free to shop around for the best deal.

[budugu]

NT is dead?

What about the 64-bit NT known as "Windows XP x64 Edition" ? Dead? What about the 64-bit NT known as "Windows Server 2003 x64"?

I'm not saying that they'll get some old NT3 code running for the Xbox360 - they'll take the newest 64-bit NT stuff with the hyperthreaded scheduler enhancements and customize that for the console.

There are a lot differences as to how NT handles internals vs. how 2000 handles stuff ... vs. 2003 /XP handle stuff at the kernel level. x64 is not NT. x64/XP home/XP pro/ Server 2003/XP tablet/XP MCE - ALL share the same code base (read the first chapter in Windows Internals edition 4). So your XP home is more close (& literally has the same code) to Server 2003 than NT or 2000. If you want to customize it for the console you either need to rewrite the low level code ... write 20 different optimized compilers (which is THE most expensive and difficult part) or run emulation. they might choose to do both first to develop new games + second to run existing game base. so what ever your loose "customization" = REWRITE!

More over they are not going to port the whole OS for the box! So they will just make an API (which they already have called XNA -simply google for it) which can be universally used with out worrying about what is going on under it harware level. The interface itself looks like XP MCE. it could be a cross between CE and XP -MCE ...

[d.perel]

Probably $500-600 (CDN) for an XBOX360...

Yet Apple sell a 2.7Ghz G5 for $4300????

Microsoft will likely incur a bit of a loss on the sale of the hardware, but Apple must make money hand over fist with the sales of PowerMacs.
The xbox processors are (from what has been said in other threads) a very stripped down, yet nevertheless multicore, version of the PowerPC processors. Maybe the development that IBM did to power up these chips will positively affect Apple Hardware in the next few months....maybe

[Don't panic]

Windows XP on a Mac. Best of both worlds. :D
and then
? are you kidding think you got it reversed.
OS X on a PC. Best of both worlds. ha wrong thing to say. NO WAY ummm id rather osx on a pc but even thats not as good as a mac

sooo, which part of :D did you not get? sheesh
OK, I'll spell it out: it was a joke

[crap freakboy]

IBM might introduce a new PowerPC workstation based on Power5, Which supports virtualization? So is MSFT planning to make their OS for IBM Power (30% of the market share in Big iron) based servers (b'cos XP and server 2003 largely share the same code base)? :rolleyes:

I doubt that these games will move to mac any more than what they do now. Most of the code will be based on MSFT - XNA (own api/Framework for gamedevelopment) + DirectX - so porting the code will to next to impossible! :(

Last but not the least Windows XP/Longhorn for Macs! :D

That was just noise!
:confused:

[Detlev_73]

How funny in a hypocrital sort of way.

[DickArmAndHarT]

I think you got it reversed.

OS X on a PC. Best of both worlds.


os x on a mac. Best

[bushgreen]

there are no developer kits that have 3.2ghz G5s with 3 cores and a next generation ati card. so this means all the games have been made using the dual 2.5Ghz with ati x800 cards or previous dual 2ghz G5s ati 9800 cards. that means the games shown are probably using only 50% of the xbox 360s power.

another thing is that all games shown were in high def and had extremely good graphics, especailly games such as test drive unlimited (http://media.xbox.gamespy.com/media/747/747892/vids_1.html) , project gotham racing 3 (http://www.mtv.com/music/video/index.jhtml?_lpvid=48295) and unreal tournament 2007 (http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/746/746631/imgs_1.html) . knowing the fact that these games are made on current powermac technology, it shows how good games can be on the Powermac G5s when optimized properly.

[~Shard~]

All I have to say is that this story makes me happy. A bit of poetic justice you could say... :cool:

[oskar]

That's kind of hilarious, nice thing to throw in the face of your average mac-bashing friend... but I suppose there's not a bit of apple software on it though?!
Ummm... no. If Microsoft were designing their operating system or PCs with a Mac, then maybe. Not a gaming console. BTW I hardly know any "Mac-Bashers". It is usually "PC-Bashers" I hear especially on these forums. (Oh and I'm a Mac user only.)

MWAHAHAHH microsoft has to use the apple's g5!!! HAHAHAH thats so freakin funny!
They're using good technology to make an outstanding gaming console, or rather test and develop the games. No surprise there. Microsoft doesn't seem to be afraid of using a competitor's hardware for developing better tech.

Or maybe it just shows that Microsoft is a mature corporation, not one that makes decisions based on "religious" issues or the ego of the CEO.
Exactly. This is something that Apple has always had problems with, IMO. They've developed some tech and try to prove it is the best when sometimes it is actually outperformed by the competition, but by no means do they plan on adopting the competitors' ways. The great exception is our beloved iPod which stands out over everything else no matter what anybody says. But... where has Apple gone with that? iPods everywhere, $tock much higher, power for power users down.
I just hope that the XBox 360 means better processors or all new technology for near future Apple products.

[rickvanr]

Or maybe it just shows that Microsoft is a mature corporation, not one that makes decisions based on "religious" issues or the ego of the CEO.
Until recently, I'm quite sure Jobs at Pixar was not using macs.

[gregoryp]

So do you think Apple will purchase a bunch of xBox 360's so they can do some development for the next Mac Mini?

Interesting how Jobs keeps spouting off about being the "Digital Hub" of the home, yet Microsoft beats Apple to the punch with a digital hub of their own that blows the doors off the similarly sized Mac Mini. Oh yeah, and it is HALF the price. Hmmn. Stevie better get cracking! Can we start the June WWMD rumors now?

[DrNeroCF]

So... if one were to rip the OS from an xbox 2 (that directx for powerpc deal) and load it onto a PowerMac, would it run?

[harveypooka]

That's the funniest thing ever. They're basically saying, ho hum, "we'll replace it with something better". Yeah right! They've moved to the mac-side! Ha ha! Excellent! Just when will Apple adopt the three core, 3.2 ghz cpu?! There must be some differences between the MS powerPC and the Mac version? Or not?

[AidenShaw]

There are a lot differences as to how NT handles internals vs. how 2000 handles stuff ... vs. 2003 /XP handle stuff at the kernel level. x64 is not NT. x64/XP home/XP pro/ Server 2003/XP tablet/XP MCE - ALL share the same code base (read the first chapter in Windows Internals edition 4). So your XP home is more close (& literally has the same code) to Server 2003 than NT or 2000. If you want to customize it for the console you either need to rewrite the low level code ... write 20 different optimized compilers (which is THE most expensive and difficult part) or run emulation.

Windows 2000 == Windows NT 5.0
Windows XP == Windows NT 5.1
Windows Server 2003 = Windows NT 5.2

You are interpreting "NT" to mean "NT 4.0" or earlier. Most Windows-aware folks interpret "NT" to mean "any NT-based system" unless the version number is specified as 3.1, 3.5, 3.51 or 4.0.

Try saying "echo Operating system is %os%" on your Server 2003 system - it will say:

Operating system is Windows_NT


So, of course MS would take the latest Server 2003 codebase (didn't I say that) which already has 64-bit support and hyperthreading-optimized scheduling, and customize that.

And BTW, the PPC compilers already exist - Visual Studio supported PPC, and Windows CE compilers exist for PPC (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/vcce/htm/evc_guide00_1.asp).

[SAukland]

Or maybe it just shows that Microsoft is a mature corporation, not one that makes decisions based on "religious" issues or the ego of the CEO.

I get it now. That's why Bill Gates banned the iPod at Redmond.

[Lacero]

I get it now. That's why Bill Gates banned the iPod at Redmond.Or maybe he fears 60GB of company secrets stolen.

[SAukland]

Or maybe he fears 60GB of company secrets stolen.

Thats not what the supposed internal e-mails imply. Doubt they would cite iPod sales.

"There are frequent communications within the company about why it's a bad choice," the manager said. "So many people have chosen the iPod, executives feel they should send out memos about it."

For example, an internal e-mail circular sent to several senior managers in mid-December talked about iPod shipments to Apple's nearby store in Bellevue.

The e-mail said: "FWIW, the gal at the Bellevue Square Apple Store said that they are getting in two shipments of 200 iPods every day to keep up with this week's demand, and are nearly constantly selling out."
<snip>
Fifteen minutes later, the manager responded: "I don't know what I was thinking. I'm sure that Microsoft employees are not buying iPods, or Macs or PlayStations."

Nope, just the executives are buying macs. :p

[Montserrat]

Given the fancy water cooling affair in the ToTR PowerMacs - what does that mean for this new XBox.
Bytheway - hate the name XBox 360 - so tacky

As for the person who mentioned stealing 60Gb of M$ secrets - what would that contain - probably just the code for a login window given their expertise at bloat.

Having said all that - ability one day to play XBox games on a Mac with an emulator would be pretty damn cool.

Goodnight world

[deputy_doofy]

The reason this is so good is because for almost 2 decades, x86 users have been proclaiming the architecture's superiority over PPC. Regardless of whether the PMG5 is a stop-gap measure or not, the fact that Microsoft is not using the "superior" x86/Intel processing line says something more than any Apple zealot could.
Microsoft is using PPC in a dominant role. That says something about the role (and future) of PPC's importance.


P.S. My new dual 2.3GHz G5 rules. :D

[AidenShaw]

The reason this is so good is because for almost 2 decades, x86 users have been proclaiming the architecture's superiority over PPC.

PowerPC was introduced in 1993 (http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-powhist/), so your "almost 2 decades" is really "a little more than 1 decade".

Microsoft has been using ARM, PPC and other chips in the embedded market since forever. They've been very open to using the right technology for the application, without "religious" overtones.

The NT codebase is portable - Microsoft didn't get what it wanted from Intel, so it jumped. If PPC doesn't come through, it will be something else for Xbox3.

"something else" could be a hex-core MIPS, or x64, or something completely different. If the Xbox 360 had used a triple core x86 with 6 hyper-threads and a super SSE vector unit, would that have meant that PPC was dead and x86 ruled? No. MS is building custom silicon for a special purpose device - they got the best deal from IBM this time around.

The Xbox360 is a special custom embedded PPC design, which has almost no relevance to the fact that Apple uses a PPC970 in its systems. You won't have an ice cube's chance in hell of running OSX on an Xbox, and even less of a chance of finally getting state of the art Xbox games to run on OSX.

Microsoft could very well have specified that the Xbox chip swapped instruction codes, so that the binary instruction that says "add" on a PPC970 (AKA G5) says "multiply" on the Xbox. A trivial change (at the silicon level) which would absolutely block PPC970 code from running on the Xbox. And a trivial change for compilers - you just swap the codes for "add" and "multiply" in the architecture definition table.

Or, maybe the fact that the xbox 360 chip has "VMX-128" with 128 vector registers would make any old code written for the 32-register VMX on the PPC970 unusable.

MS isn't using a G5, they've paid for a custom architecture that's optimized for a game console.

[Dragonopolis]

If microsoft can push that kind of graphic power out the door at game machine prices (300 to 400 max), there would be no need for anybody to buy a mac mini, imac, or any other intel/amd type machine. This new machine does everything my computer can do and better (as far as every day life things like pictures, movies, games ( and yes people it will do email and surf the net -- microsoft just waiting for Sony's move at E3 before whip'n out all their guns and ammo on table). Face the facts, if you can plug a web camera in any of the Three usb ports, you can plug a keyboard, mouse, and printer too. I don't care how loyal you are, you would be stupid as a consumer to pass up a 400 dollar (better to be pessimistic on price) PC killer.

Thankfully, Apple has access to the same technology.

LETS hope they use it (and not charge a premium for it)

:)

[AidenShaw]

Thankfully, Apple has access to the same technology.

Why would you assume that?

This custom chip that Microsoft owns has very little in common with the PPC970 that Apple buys from IBM. Same with the custom ATI graphics chip.

The Xbox 360 has almost no relevance for Apple, except that Apple now has competition for the output from Fishkill. It could be that IBM is even slower at producing PPC970 chips because IBM will be making more money churning out processors for the Xbox 360.

My TiVo has a PPC processor, yet I need Windows to access its features like TiVo 2 go. The chip architecture isn't that important - the software is what one should worry about.

Everyone - breathe in, breathe out - and repeat: "The Xbox 360 is not using a PPC970. Move along now, these are not the droids that you're looking for...."

[Telomar]

The Xbox 360 has almost no relevance for Apple, except that Apple now has competition for the output from Fishkill. It could be that IBM is even slower at producing PPC970 chips because IBM will be making more money churning out processors for the Xbox 360.
Only thing is the processors aren't being built at Fishkill, or even by IBM for that matter. Microsoft owns the design so they could get the manufacturers into bidding wars over who was going to make it. For the first run they've gone with TSMC.

[DesterWallaboo]

My brother is an game engine designer and worked for Microsoft for a long period of time. He currently is working for another company that develops high-end console car gaming engines. He told me straight up that they are using G5's with OS X installed to develop their games. They have custom development software to right specifically for the XBOX 360... however, they can preview and run the games on the Mac for debugging.

[Dreadnought]

Hmm, maybe we can crack the hardware and make it a dual boot. Just like they do now with the xbox. Have the original os for gaming, and have (a stripped down) os 10 on it!!

[AidenShaw]

Only thing is the processors aren't being built at Fishkill, or even by IBM for that matter. Microsoft owns the design so they could get the manufacturers into bidding wars over who was going to make it. For the first run they've gone with TSMC.

Thanks for the correction....

Here's some more:

http://www.tsmc.com/tsmcdotcom/PRListingNewsAction.do?action=detail&LANG=E&newsid=1500&newsdate=2004/04/06

[Foniks Munkee]

My brother is an game engine designer and worked for Microsoft for a long period of time. He currently is working for another company that develops high-end console car gaming engines. He told me straight up that they are using G5's with OS X installed to develop their games. They have custom development software to right specifically for the XBOX 360... however, they can preview and run the games on the Mac for debugging.
Well, yes - it was much the same for the original XBox when it was released. Early in the piece developers used PC's to develop the code before Microsoft was able to release the dev kits proper.

It is much more likely (and already indicated in many of the reviews) that this an interim measure until production of the XBox 360 dev kits starts proper. Whether they stay with G5's or not is another thing - you see - with cross platform compilation it really doesn't matter what machine your using. As long as you have compilers written for the platform your working on your okay. For instance; write on a Windows PC, compile the binary and export to the dev kit for it to run. That is how the current PS2 and XBox dev kits work. They develop on PC's, usualy using Visual Studio, or maybe Metrowerks Codewarrior, but the binaries don't actually run natively.

While they are doing the initial development, i'll bet they are running it natively on the G5's, because they don't have dev kits to try it out on. And I also bet it runs at about 30% of the speed the final product will run at on the XBox 360 - all jittery and stuttery. Not a surprise, this was exactly what happened just prior to the XBox's initial release when coding on straight up windows boxes.

And to be honest, it really doesn't matter - there is an assumption here that for some reason Apple is winning something because Microsoft is resorting to using similar CPUs to those that appear in Apple machines. That may have been a more valid claim if the 360 included a version of OS X, but it doesn't. It will most definitely be one of the more modern variants of Windows CE. And even so, why the hell does it matter??

But anyhoo - I'm kinda surprised by the biggotry i'm seeing here, I am a game developer, and an avid windows user - but I want to try out Macs (specifically the Powerbooks) because I truly believe they are awesome machines. But after reading so many microsoft bashing posts that are born out of ignorance (not necessarily isolated to this forum) i'm just not so sure anymore. I'm a newby to the Mac world, and I probably would need to ask for help at some stage, but I don't want to do it while hearing all this rubbish about Apple being so damn awesome, there not - neither is microsoft - they just both happen to create tools that let us get some work done at the end of the day.

[killmoms]

But anyhoo - I'm kinda surprised by the biggotry i'm seeing here, I am a game developer, and an avid windows user - but I want to try out Macs (specifically the Powerbooks) because I truly believe they are awesome machines. But after reading so many microsoft bashing posts that are born out of ignorance (not necessarily isolated to this forum) i'm just not so sure anymore. I'm a newby to the Mac world, and I probably would need to ask for help at some stage, but I don't want to do it while hearing all this rubbish about Apple being so damn awesome, there not - neither is microsoft - they just both happen to create tools that let us get some work done at the end of the day.
Eh, it's a Mac board populated (to some extent) by zealots who are teenagers (or certainly ACT like them), and the rest of us are mature adults, some of whom you've met in this thread. Believe it or not, the MacNN boards are worse. Anywho, I'm sure you've been on PC boards where the Windows fanboys bash Mac all the time, or on Slashdot where the Linux fanboys bash everything all the time... it's just a matter of which environment you're in.

Anyway, glad to hear you're interested in the Mac world, and don't let a few extremists turn you off. On the whole, we're a friendly, logical bunch. Also, the "news" threads tend to get more attention than the help threads on other areas of these boards... just a thought. :cool:

[thebassist]

the biggest win for apple isn't in the form of the processor from IBM. It's the fact that Developers ordered powermacs for development. Lets say that 2000 developers ordered G5 powermacs for development. That's at least twice what apple would normally sell in a year.

More sells for apple is always good.

[makey]

LOL ... Thought I would never see the day where a Microsoft sticker is placed on a PowerMac. It is real sad when Microsoft cannot even rely on their own Operating System and apps.

[thatwendigo]

And to be honest, it really doesn't matter - there is an assumption here that for some reason Apple is winning something because Microsoft is resorting to using similar CPUs to those that appear in Apple machines. That may have been a more valid claim if the 360 included a version of OS X, but it doesn't. It will most definitely be one of the more modern variants of Windows CE. And even so, why the hell does it matter??

I'm going to have to skip down to a latter comment you make to tell you why it matters, at least to many of the people here, by addressing your newness to the mac scene. There isn't a good analogy I can come up with to try to paint this into a pretty picture, so I'm going to go with the flat, bald truth as I see it.

The main reason that this is seen as any kind of "victory" by the people who are passionate enough about their platform to be hanging out at a rumors site (there's a big hint for you) is that we have spent years and years watching the lies and marketing try to bury our chosen platform. Intel and Microsoft have been in collusion to run anyone and anything that opposes them right out of the market. It's true that the Macintosh has lagged at times in terms of hardware, even at some things in software, but the experience as a whole has been one we consider to be superior. What is not true is that we're all ignorant, as a majority of people that you hear this "zealotry" from have experience with Windows in some form and don't like it one bit. Not all of them are eloquent or witty in expressing their distaste, but that should hardly reflect on the machine itself.

Do you base your purchasing decisions on the fact that some kid with a Honda likes to have a big, fat tailpipe and an unnecessary wing on his car? How about when he tells stories you might know are misinformed, at best?

Get the picture? Sorry about the analogy, though. I did say I'd stay away from those.

But anyhoo - I'm kinda surprised by the biggotry i'm seeing here, I am a game developer, and an avid windows user - but I want to try out Macs (specifically the Powerbooks) because I truly believe they are awesome machines.

Pot, meet kettle.

Calling yourself an "avid windows user" and then criticising macintosh users is just a bit disengenuous, wouldn't you say?

I'm a newby to the Mac world, and I probably would need to ask for help at some stage, but I don't want to do it while hearing all this rubbish about Apple being so damn awesome, there not - neither is microsoft - they just both happen to create tools that let us get some work done at the end of the day.

If the tool is superior, what's wrong with pointing that out? In many ways, OS X beats the crap out of Windows XP, at least from the standpoint of the people using it. In some more objective ways - security, viruses and malware, etc - it's even provable that the platform beats Redmond's offering.

I'd rather have a tool I knew wouldn't break and pay for it than get one more cheaply and not be able to rely on it when I need it.

[Foniks Munkee]

Pot, meet kettle.

Calling yourself an "avid windows user" and then criticising macintosh users is just a bit disengenuous, wouldn't you say?

But I WANT to be a Mac user :) - and i was trying to stay neutral in about this (hence the right tool for the job comment) - my point is, neither is better (they both have faults), its what works for you.

Anyway, it is kinda old news, everyone knows that MS has been using Macs for years, what do you think they developed the Mac version of Office on? They even have a department that uses Linux - and they also spent time working on FreeBSD for some of their compiler technology.

I just don't understand how such a small user base can harbour so much anger - I'm an IT professional (ex sys-admin, currently a game developer) that works with hundreds of IT users, all working in a predominantly windows environment. But none of them bash Mac - in fact, most of them wish for the sleek lines and well designed hardware of the Mac. They have iPods in their pockets and iBooks in their laptop cases.

OS X beats the crap out of Windows XP
Well, in SOME respects your right (that argument goes both ways), bar one very important factor. There are bugger all games for OS X. And you can have the best operating system in the world, but if there is no software for it (as in, the software you are most interested in - I know there is a lot of good Mac software), your screwed. I mean, even your best office suite comes from Microsoft... sheesh - And as for XP, it really isn't that bad - I love it, it works really well, i've NEVER in 15 years of using MS products had a virus, and the most important thing for me, I can pick and choose my hardware and it works, from the brand of network card to the brand of motherboard. Busted motherboard? No problem, $120 AUD later and 20 minutes of work, new computer.

By Comparison, I believe most Mac logic boards run into something like $700 Australian, and depending on where you live, takes up to two weeks to fix (my housemate is an apple certified tech, but I'm doing these figures from memory).

But again, this is not an attack on Mac, they are different, their goals are different - these are just facts - I see some awesome positives:

1 - They look great and have a pretty high build quality
2 - OS X is a pretty darn stable os, and based on FreeBSD (i was a FreeBSD admin - love BSD and Darwin)
3 - The laptops are comparitively cheaper for the similar specced PC laptops

But please, just cos this is a mac forum, you don't have to bash MS, I came here to learn something about Macs not to hear that everything I based my life on over the last 15 years is crap.

[Foniks Munkee]

What is not true is that we're all ignorant, as a majority of people that you hear this "zealotry" from have experience with Windows in some form and don't like it one bit.
By the way, i'm not saying your all ignorant, far from it. As I said, my housemate and best friend is a Mac user - I want to be a Mac user - and alot of what I've read on this forum has been very eloquent and well informed.

I'm just confused how I can't go two posts without reading how crap MS is. Even if it were true, what point does it service to keep mentioning it - it's just odd is all. It actually reminds me of the pointless wars people get into over C++ and Java - both great programming languages, both designed for totally different jobs - and yet there is such a war over which one is best. Its a weird, pointless excercise that just serves to anger everyone.

Proud of your platform or not - your not comparing apples with apples (so to speak) - the two systems have very different paradigms, and the corporations behind them different goals.

Anway, its good to have Apple around, keeps MS on their toes. ;)

[Tech^salvager]

LOL ... Thought I would never see the day where a Microsoft sticker is placed on a PowerMac. It is real sad when Microsoft cannot even rely on their own Operating System and apps.
what makes you think that their not using their own OS on the PowerMac?
They could be using a powerpc version of a embedded OS like CE or XP embedded.

[Tech^salvager]

It just means it'll be easier to do than were the XBox 360 based on a different processor. It doesn't mean it's likely to happen.

Look at the current scenario. The XBox has a whole load of stock PC hardware in it, but has anyone made an XBox emulator for the PC? Nope.
cxbx is a emulator I believe.

[Tamer Brad]

If microsoft can push that kind of graphic power out the door at game machine prices (300 to 400 max), there would be no need for anybody to buy a mac mini, imac, or any other intel/amd type machine. This new machine does everything my computer can do and better (as far as every day life things like pictures, movies, games ( and yes people it will do email and surf the net -- microsoft just waiting for Sony's move at E3 before whip'n out all their guns and ammo on table). Face the facts, if you can plug a web camera in any of the Three usb ports, you can plug a keyboard, mouse, and printer too. I don't care how loyal you are, you would be stupid as a consumer to pass up a 400 dollar (better to be pessimistic on price) PC killer.

Thankfully, Apple has access to the same technology.

LETS hope they use it (and not charge a premium for it)

:)

Agh. The stupid, it hurts my head.

These are not PC's. PC's do not sell at a loss. Please just ... stop. I can't take it anymore.

[Rod Rod]

MWAHAHAHH microsoft has to use the apple's g5!!! HAHAHAH thats so freakin funny!
Apparently this was news to you. Just about everyone else knew about it for a year (give or take) already.

That's the funniest thing ever. They're basically saying, ho hum, "we'll replace it with something better". Yeah right! They've moved to the mac-side! Ha ha! Excellent! Just when will Apple adopt the three core, 3.2 ghz cpu?! There must be some differences between the MS powerPC and the Mac version? Or not?
They haven't "moved to the mac-side" at all. They're using Mac hardware to develop specialized software which is designed to run on specialized hardware (which in turn is not yet widely available). The three core 3.2GHz CPU is not going to have a "Mac version."

the biggest win for apple isn't in the form of the processor from IBM. It's the fact that Developers ordered powermacs for development. Lets say that 2000 developers ordered G5 powermacs for development. That's at least twice what apple would normally sell in a year.

More sells for apple is always good.
I respect newbies because I was one myself not too long ago, but this particular thread has brought out an unusual number of gems.

According to thebassist, Apple would have only sold 2000 Power Mac G5s in all of 2004 except for Microsoft's decision to run the XBox 360 developer's kit on dual-processor PM G5s. thebassist, I know you phrased it as a hypothetical but even so, there are far more PM G5 Mac OS X users than PM G5 XBox 360 developers.

[thebassist]

Those is jokes: yo
I was foolin'

[Tamer Brad]

http://lowendmac.com/musings/05/0513.html

*speechless from the stupid*

[Rod Rod]

http://lowendmac.com/musings/05/0513.html

*speechless from the stupid*
I agree. That article belongs in that site's "Lighter Side" section. Mr. Knight doesn't know what he's talking about.

[stephenli]

It just means it'll be easier to do than were the XBox 360 based on a different processor. It doesn't mean it's likely to happen.

Look at the current scenario. The XBox has a whole load of stock PC hardware in it, but has anyone made an XBox emulator for the PC? Nope.

how about using xBox360 to emulate Mac?!
multicore 3.2Ghz CPU+++++

[Rod Rod]

how about using xBox360 to emulate Mac?!
multicore 3.2Ghz CPU+++++
Please read the other threads on this site about why the XBox 360's 3.2GHz PPC would be pathetic running Mac OS X.

As emulation goes, the most likely scenario is that someone will figure out how to run Linux on it, followed immediately by Mac on Linux.

[AidenShaw]

how about using xBox360 to emulate Mac?!
multicore 3.2Ghz CPU+++++

Just write a game that behaves like OSX - you're done !

[osprey54]

If microsoft needed a powerpc platform, then why not just use IBMs own blade servers offering 970s? I wonder what software they were using for development or if they were just using the basic Darwin core with the development tools running on top of it. I wonder what intel thinks about this move :)

Hey, maybe these PowerPCs could be the infamous 750vx processor that IBM was developing (not likely)

Also, a little off topic, since the POWER architecture is now open source, doesn't that mean that ANYONE, including Intel, can now develop their own PowerPC processors?

With the announcement of the PS3 and Revolution, it looks like the 5th generation of processors will be dominated by IBM.

[JustinCaseiMac]

So much for Powermac sales, why did they bother with that update when things so much better are obviously 6 months away

Better things to come...WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? That makes NO sence

[Rod Rod]

Better things to come...WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? That makes NO sence
It's just another person who's confusing the XBox 360's processor with the G5. Some people would rather post than read. :)

[iriejedi]

cxbx is a emulator I believe.


Well if it has not already been mentioned - the reason PS3 was touted as having MUCH better graphice than the XBOX 360 is because it was NOT demoed on the MAC! Just about anything else has better graphics drivers! IMHO! :eek:

[Dragonopolis]

Why does the current crop of Mac Users seemed so concerned about the Processor. Is it not Apple who pushed to educated consumers that processor speed, etc..., wasn't everything and what you do with the processor is what's important. Who cares if Xbox 360, Sony's PS3, even Revolution ( although technically nintendo isn't pushing the digital hub thing) don't have the 970xx chip. Consumers want a machine that will play their DVD's, Movies, Surf the net, Chat, Voice Chat, and yes gaming with relative ease. Not only that, but the new crop of HDTV ready TV's, at times, are better at displaying graphics than the current inexpensive and midrange monitors that consumers usually buy when they purchase a computer. Game systems have grownup so have tv's. The advantages PC today have have dwindle considerably. These systems aim to not only play games, but be able to do what
we all do on our computers everyday. Apple needs to realize this market is maturing and will definitely lure many Intel/Winbloze away (pun not intend :) } who could initially be Mac users (Maybe even lure some Mac users). Most entry level and midrange computer shoppers just want to use their system and don't care about the the OS in general. Most PC games on Intel Platform don't even need to use OS specific calls ( that's the shell enviroment for the technically challenge). For all you Mac bashers on this site check out Carapace at Sharpe-shell.org. The program will load an application or game without out the need to use Winbloze.

This opinion is not to bash Mac or Apple, I love my Powermac, but to bring awareness and concern to the Mac community. It's just as much our responsibility to win over our Winbloze counterparts as is Apple's. These new hybrid game systems will definitely hurt Intel/AMD and could even draw/hurt apples low, mid, and gaming market. There will always be a need to have Workstations ( i.e PowerMac) and Notebooks for work and school, but we mac users need powerful cheap easy to use no fuss digital media hubs Cooked and Served in Apple fashion. Not a waterdown version of the Powermac ( mac mini, iMac )but a true media/gaming experience for Cheap. It is our responsibility as mac consumers to tell Apple we need this type of device in our homes. I have a feeling most people will shrug off this warning -- just as the market did with the iPod. Now look at the iPod now. Let's hope Apple and Mac Users don't turn a blind eye.

Definite a buyer of both a PS3 and Xbox 360 when they come out. (Apple take a Hint)

[killmoms]

This opinion is not to bash Mac or Apple, I love my Powermac, but to bring awareness and concern to the Mac community. It's just as much our responsibility to win over our Winbloze counterparts as is Apple's. These new hybrid game systems will definitely hurt Intel/AMD and could even draw/hurt apples low, mid, and gaming market. There will always be a need to have Workstations ( i.e PowerMac) and Notebooks for work and school, but we mac users need powerful cheap easy to use no fuss digital media hubs Cooked and Served in Apple fashion. Not a waterdown version of the Powermac ( mac mini, iMac )but a true media/gaming experience for Cheap. It is our responsibility as mac consumers to tell Apple we need this type of device in our homes. I have a feeling most people will shrug off this warning -- just as the market did with the iPod. Now look at the iPod now. Let's hope Apple and Mac Users don't turn a blind eye.

Definite a buyer of both a PS3 and Xbox 360 when they come out. (Apple take a Hint)
In the same way that I think the "computer" aspects of this new crop of consoles will not take off, I think Apple entering the console market would be suicide. Steve Jobs has always pooh poohed the idea of integrating the TV and the computer, and has publicly stated on several occasions that he thinks Windows Media Center PCs are a stupid idea. I'd certainly agree, since for the most part I only hear of geeks using them, not the "average consumer." Yes, the Xbox 360 might be able to browse the internet and do e-mail, but who cares? 99% of people are going to use it to play games, not that other stuff. I can't think of anyone who would use it for this—they get it for the games. I think this whole "convergence" idea is misguided, and so does Apple. That's why the iPod is a digital music player, not a digital music player + FM tuner + video player + network music server + camera + toaster.

Apple MAY move into a dedicated streaming video/audio device to replace the Airport Express as it currently exists, but I don't see them entering the "set-top box" arena at all, certainly not for gaming. The Mac will remain a computer, though it's a digital media "hub" or server, and I think we'll see that role increase and shift some in the coming years, but they'll keep it pretty delineated.

[Dragonopolis]

All hail the mighty Steve Jobs. He isn't perfect-- smart -- but not perfect. He may have dogged the Windows Media Thing in the past but that doesn't change the fact the sony and microsoft are going to be selling millions of these units at 300 to 500 dollars a pop and not counting the software royalties that these incredible systems are going to pull in.

Meanwhile Sony and Microsoft are smiling all the way to the bank

Hmmm bet some of those sales are mac owners.

Apple had the technology -- could of (and still can if they wanted to) been the one lauching a similiar system. Millions of people would have flocked (no doubt apple would have done it right).

Remember Apple is a hardware company and we are talking hardware. Apple miss out on a very lucrative market.
Just because Steve Jobs said it was stupid doesn't stop the fact that millions of people are going to buy these units anyway. My opinion -- Steve said that out of frustration because he didn't get to it first.

Face the facts -- the tv is a more accessble than the computer in a home.

People are generally lazy -- Why go all the way to the small corner of a room or office when right there in front of them is a game console that can do the same thing with similar performance. Cable is right there for high speed access (heck with all them satellite owners now there's probably a phone jack near the tv center too)

for those of us who are not lazy -- we have are own personal reasons -- I give you one of mine.

I have two boys. One 6 and the other 8 years old. If I do not have a physical presence in my home they, like alot of boys, will tend to get out of control at times. I also have chores I have to do (wash clothes, make dinner, etc..) and it get's real frustrating and time consuming as a single parent with kids to go from one side of the house to the other. My living room/ Family Room is pretty much a center of all that is going on in my home and a place that is easy to monitor just about every activity that goes on (including my back yard). Computers today just don't fit into the Living Room/ family room Life style. I was a carpet cleaner for 2 years and a Satellite Installer for 8 months and I have been in a lot of homes and alot of people must feel the same way because I rarely saw a computer placed in such rooms. Most of the time it was either a bedroom, or for the more fortunate, a spare bedroom or home office.

Now, I'm not going to stop gaming, watching movies, or surfing the net, so it's seems to me that someone who has enough common sense to know that convenience sells will make a computer or a gaming console fit into my ever so convenient Living/Family room and do all the things I need it to do Electronically. So far, the only Companies that seem to see this is the game consoles -- more power to them.

However, there is one thing I feel I was incorrect in my last opinion and that is the need for low end mac mini type computers. The new crop of game consoles are impressive, but I doubt they'll do any type of Word Processing or home office applications for those of us who need them. Thankfully These Program don't require alot of graphic power and can be run quite nicely from such machines. A $500 dollar Mac mini and $400 dollars for a monitor, keyboard, mouse and printer would do just fine. :o

[weg]

Forget it... NT is dead ... and they are not going to use any of that old muddy code any where!

Actually the XP kernel is based on the code of the NT kernel, and the code is quite nice... Dave Cutler did a good job.

[djdarlek]

and now we see a flood of new games heading to the mac, taking away another reason why people think the pc is better.

More importantly, this is the first games generation where the consoles will eclipse the high-end PC users! Even alienware users would be hard pushed to keepup with the graphics from an xbox360/ps3. This could be devestating for M$, seeing as this would leave windows users without their main reason for putting up with Windows OS; Games.

[osprey54]

Apple had the technology -- could of (and still can if they wanted to) been the one lauching a similiar system. Millions of people would have flocked (no doubt apple would have done it right).


You do realize that microsoft and sony will be LOSING money on the 360 and PS3, right? The xbox was only able to compete because microsoft backed it up with billions of dollars. If apple entered the games arena, they would not be able to do this.

More importantly, this is the first games generation where the consoles will eclipse the high-end PC users! Even alienware users would be hard pushed to keepup with the graphics from an xbox360/ps3. This could be devestating for M$, seeing as this would leave windows users without their main reason for putting up with Windows OS; Games

Ahh, but whereas these consoles are goig to maintain the same stats for the next 3 years or so, computer technology will be continually upgrading and is bound to leave the consoles in the dust within a cool 6-12 months.

I don't know about anybody else here, but i would not use a console for anything besides games. But I do think that the media center is a good idea and apple should at least have something similar to it.

[hanq]

Well if it has not already been mentioned - the reason PS3 was touted as having MUCH better graphice than the XBOX 360 is because it was NOT demoed on the MAC! Just about anything else has better graphics drivers! IMHO! :eek:

its not like they're using OS X. microsoft probably has there own software a drivers... right?