What constitutes cheating? [Archive]

QCassidy352

Jun 2, 2005, 07:58 PM

Hopefully this is an appropriate forum for this topic...

This is an issue of great importance to me right now. I am interested to know what you all think consitutes "cheating" in an exclusive romantic relationship.

Does there have to be physical contact for it to be cheating? Would you consider it cheating if your significant other talked to a MOS (or same sex, if homosexual) for hours at a time on the phone, sharing personal thoughts, feelings, etc? How about spending time with a MOS in secret, but not doing anything except friendly, platonic things?

If it's physical contact, does it have to be explicit sexual acts? How about a french kiss? How about flirtatious touching (on arms, back, etc)?

I guess for me, it comes down less to specific acts than to this:
If you could do it and tell your significant other about it, without either you feeling guilty or him/her getting angry, then it's not cheating. If either a) you feel guilty doing it, or b) you partner would be hurt if he/she found out, then it's borderline. If you feel guilty and they would be hurt, then it's definitely cheating.

Please let me know what you think.

CubaTBird

Jun 2, 2005, 08:10 PM

hrm... if i had a gf.. and suspected her of cheating.. i would consider it her going more than the "just friends thing" with that other guy... like if she starts seeing him more than i... its kinda of a intuition sort of thing.

miloblithe

Jun 2, 2005, 08:15 PM

I'd agree with your definition there. It's about the limits and understandings in one's particular relationship. And about honesty. It's not a technical definition of levels of contact.

For instance. I'm allowed to sleep with a 19-year old because it's the only age for a woman (17 and above) that I've not had sex with or won't as my wife ages. OK. That's a joke.

QCassidy352

Jun 2, 2005, 10:40 PM

And about honesty. It's not a technical definition of levels of contact.

I'd agree with that. I'm not a happy person right now. :(

The Past

Jun 2, 2005, 11:04 PM

For instance. I'm allowed to sleep with a 19-year old because it's the only age for a woman (17 and above) that I've not had sex with or won't as my wife ages.

LOL! Good one!

jsw

Jun 2, 2005, 11:05 PM

The problem with the feeling guilty/being hurt definition is that many people don't feel guilty about anything - or are guilt-ridden about everything. Likewise, some people seem unflappable, others are put out over the tiniest thing.

For me, cheating is doing anything romantic - be it physical or not. There are absolutely various degrees of cheating. The cheating that I think matters the most is that which involves emotional intimacy. Physical cheating is important because it is hurtful - if discovered - and potentially a health threat to the "innocent" party, but emotional wandering is a much more dangerous long-term threat to a relationship.

If you were to sleep with some random stranger on a business trip, that's certainly cheating. But it's much less of a threat to your relationship than falling in love with another person.

BTW, my personal opinion is that you shouldn't cheat - it's too much of a pain in the ass sooner or later - but, if something happens, do not tell your partner. It might ease your conscience, but it'll just hurt them.

mad jew

Jun 2, 2005, 11:20 PM

Simplistically, my opinion of cheating is when you do something with another person that aggravates your significant other or would aggravate them if they found out.

QCassidy352

Jun 3, 2005, 12:52 AM

The problem with the feeling guilty/being hurt definition is that many people don't feel guilty about anything - or are guilt-ridden about everything. Likewise, some people seem unflappable, others are put out over the tiniest thing.

BTW, my personal opinion is that you shouldn't cheat - it's too much of a pain in the ass sooner or later - but, if something happens, do not tell your partner. It might ease your conscience, but it'll just hurt them.

Well, that's why I think it depends on both the guilt of the first person and the reaction of the significant other. If your S.O. is sufficiently hurt, then I don't really think it matters if you felt guilty while doing it.

Also, maybe "guilt" is the wrong word. Even if they have no real conscience, they know that it's something that they "shouldn't" have done, at least by societies standards - say, having sex with a stranger. Contrast that to, say, flirting with a stranger where the flirter doesn't see it as a big deal, but the partner does.

I disagree that you shouldn't tell your partner if it happens. If you love your partner, you will want them to be able to decide what is best for them - based on ALL the information, not just that which you choose to tell them. I don't see someone choosing to stay with you based on a lie as a good foundation for a continued relationship.

Simplistically, my opinion of cheating is when you do something with another person that aggravates your significant other or would aggravate them if they found out.

The only issue there is, what if they have totally unrealistic expectations? Such as, what if a significant other considered it "cheating" for you to even have platonic friends of the opposite sex? By only defining cheating by your partner's response, you run into what jsw mentioned - that some people are upset by the smallest thing, however unreasonable that might be.

mad jew

Jun 3, 2005, 01:03 AM

The only issue there is, what if they have totally unrealistic expectations? Such as, what if a significant other considered it "cheating" for you to even have platonic friends of the opposite sex? By only defining cheating by your partner's response, you run into what jsw mentioned - that some people are upset by the smallest thing, however unreasonable that might be.

Yeah that's a good point. But then, if you think the significant other is unreasonable, should you really be together in the first place? Of course, this is a very simplistic view. :(

Plus, I think you spelt my name wrong. ;)

feakbeak

Jun 3, 2005, 01:31 AM

Well after recently being on the receiving end of some Jerry Springer level ****, I agree with jsw the emotional intimacy with cheating is much worse than anything physical. Most any adult knows what is appropriate for a committed relationship. Whether they follow that or feel guilty is another thing, but people know. If someone is naturally a little flirty but still committed you'll be able to tell that, even though it might bug you.

As for whether you should tell someone or not I would give this advice. If you've cheated and it was just some stupid, drunken one-night stand I wouldn't tell your significant other at first. Maybe give it several months or a year and if your relationship is still going strong and you want to continue it I would then come out and tell that person what happened, how awful you feel and how nothing has happened again but that you wanted to be honest. Yes it will hurt, but I think they have a right to know if you plan on committing to them for the long haul. If things don't work out, never tell them because it would be unnecessary pain for the other person.

If you cheated in an emotional and/or physical way you probably shouldn't be with your significant other and should move on and probably not tell the other person because your relationship is over, why hurt the person on the way out.

Regardless if you tell them or not, the truth has a way of coming to light whether you like it or not.

anubis

Jun 3, 2005, 02:11 AM

My view is not traditional and there will probably be a lot of people on here who disagree with me. Let me start out by saying that I'm in a good relationship of nearly 3 years.

I personally believe cheating occurs with the mind, not with the body. That is, I believe in emotional cheating, not physical or sexual cheating.

I think the foundation of a relationship is the emotional intimacy you share at a level with one person that is deeper than with any other person. Personally, I find the accepted social rule that a relationship occurs when there's physical contact/sex/etc, and cheating on someone means you're physical/sexual with another person to be extremely archaic. Basing "relationship" status on whether or not you're physical/sexual is, in my view, extremely shallow.

That is, you see Jane and John walking down the street holding hands. Since they're holding hands, does that mean they're "in a relationship" or "together"? To me, no. Being "together", "in a relationship" means that you share your inner-most thoughts, feelings, essentially your 'true' self to one other person with whom you have a deep, unspoken trust and desire to connect on levels that are much deeper than just sex.

It's for these reasons that I would not personally consider being sexual with someone other than your boyfriend/girlfriend to be strictly cheating. E.g., if my girlfriend went out and got drunk at a party and had casual sex with some guy, I'd be concerned, but it certainly would not result in the end of our relationship. If I found out she was seeing a guy behind my back with whom she was becoming emotionally intimate (as I described above), I would consider that a serious breech of our relationship and would consider it true "cheating". Sex is controlled by the "lower" portion of our brains. Our ability to form complex, emotional, intimate relationships is what seperates us from animals. As another broad example, if my girlfriend came up to me and told me she had a desire to have sex with someone other than me, and we talked about it before hand and set up ground rules (i.e. no emotional cheating), I would probably be OK with it.

Now, with all of that being said, men and women think of sex a lot differently. The hypothetical situation I just explained would be highly unlikely, as women have what seems to be a biological disposition to view sex as more emotionally satisfying than physically. So it would probably be pretty difficult/unlikely for a her to explore a sexual relationship without it turning into an emotional relationship as well.

Now, with all of THAT being said, my girlfriend would probably disagree with me. We have what American society dictates what a "normal relationship" should be, i.e. exclusive emotional AND sexual relationships. She definitely would not be OK with me having casual sex with some chick, and I can live with that.

In conclusion, if I were a guy in a healthy, deeply emotionally intimate relationship with a girl, and I found out she got drunk at a party and had sex with some guy, I would not consider that a capital crime. If I found out she was constantly hanging out with some other guy, with whom she shared more feelings, thoughts, emotions, etc. than me, then we would no longer have a true relationship. If we were having sex, then our "relationship" would be viewed as nothing more than a "sexual partnership".

I know my ideas will probably illicit a few gasps, but that's just the way I see it. My thoughts are progressive. Queen Victoria died a long time ago.

P.S. Of course of we were talking about marriage, that's a whole different ballgame. I'm just talking about dating/premarriage relationships.

feakbeak

Jun 3, 2005, 02:26 AM

Anubis, I'm not gasping at your beliefs. Your logic makes sense to me and I agree with that part of it, in theory. The problem happens in practice. Although I agree with you that it is the emotional aspects of a relationship that really make it a "relationship", I think most people link the physical aspects of their relationships to the sharing of of their thoughts and emotions. It's a physical act that symbolizes what you share in other aspects of your life and like the emotional aspects, I think most want that to be exclusive as well. I think women link the physical to emotional more than men, as you've said, but all humans do it to some extent whether we are conscious of it or not. I'm more like a woman in that regard, I can't be phsyical without my feelings getting all worked up and that's fine by me. However, I don't look down upon or think ill of those who can separate the two and just have casual sex for enjoyment, provided they are responsible about it.

I could be wrong, but I think if you and your girlfriend agreed to allow her to have sex with another guy you would end up feeling quite jealous because in our brains somewhere we connect the physical acts with emotional intimacy and that connection is very strong. You might be able to rationalize it now, but when it happened I think you'd be very uncomfortable and feel as if your relationship was devalued. After all, three years is a long time. I understand that everyone is attracted to other people but to act on it can cause real problems with your emotional relationship, which we both agree is the foundation of everything. I'm not saying the arrangement you stated is not possible, but I think VERY few could execute that without serious emotional reprecussions. It's playing with fire and if you have a good relationship why would you want to risk a great emotional connection with someone over lustful desires?

Note that I realize you were not serious about actually doing something like that with your relationship, I'm just speaking hypothetically as well. Although, I do know what it is like to have your significant other cheat on you physically and emotionally. The emotional is much worse, but the phsyical automatically causes emotional trauma as well, it does not occur in isolation.

Tamer Brad

Jun 3, 2005, 02:34 AM

It's cheating if it's outside of the boundaries of your relationship.

If your girlfriend was to say it was okay to sleep with other women, it would not be cheating to do so.

Jaffa Cake

Jun 3, 2005, 02:50 AM

It's cheating if it's outside of the boundaries of your relationship.

If your girlfriend was to say it was okay to sleep with other women, it would not be cheating to do so.That's right – it depends on the relationship you have. For example, some people have open relationships where they see other people and both parties are entirely happy with this situation. On the other hand, some people would consider the behaviour QCassidy352 describes in the opening post – such as spending time in secret with a member of the opposite sex, even if it were entirely platonic – as being unfaithful.

I'm with mad jew on this one. If it's illicit behaviour that would cause your partner hurt and distress if they were to discover it, it's cheating.

QCassidy352

Jun 3, 2005, 02:56 AM

I could be wrong, but I think if you and your girlfriend agreed to allow her to have sex with another guy you would end up feeling quite jealous because in our brains somewhere we connect the physical acts with emotional intimacy and that connection is very strong. You might be able to rationalize it now, but when it happened I think you'd be very uncomfortable and feel as if your relationship was devalued. After all, three years is a long time. I understand that everyone is attracted to other people but to act on it can cause real problems with your emotional relationship, which we both agree is the foundation of everything.

I agree with that. It's easy to say that you would be ok with your partner having sex with someone else, but consciously or not, sex is connected to at least some degree of emotion for most people.

In the cynical mood I'm in now, I'm tempted to say that people, like the majority of animals on earth, are not really meant to have lifelong, monogamous relationships, and that when we try, we set ourselves up for failure. But that's probably just the pain talking...

feakbeak

Jun 3, 2005, 03:02 AM

I agree with that. It's easy to say that you would be ok with your partner having sex with someone else, but consciously or not, sex is connected to at least some degree of emotion for most people.

In the cynical mood I'm in now, I'm tempted to say that people, like the majority of animals on earth, are not really meant to have lifelong, monogamous relationships, and that when we try, we set ourselves up for failure. But that's probably just the pain talking...Yeah, probably the pain. Don't give up hope on everything and everyone yet. Well, I guess you can, but realize you won't always feel that way. Did you get my PM?

crachoar

Jun 3, 2005, 03:19 AM

I didn't bother reading anybody else's posts, but I doubt anybody said this:

If you're emotionally hurt, I'd consider it cheating (or maybe, a misunderstanding on your part). If it's just a single guy that she spends a ton of time with, maybe it's a relative you never knew about, like a cousin? Maybe it's a friend from college? An ex-boyfriend? Her gay 'shopping buddy' (man, if I had a nickel for every 'gay shopping buddy' I had) Who knows.

Talk to your girlfriend first. Tell her straight up that you're jealous, angry, or whatever. However you handle things or react after that is entirely up to you...

Just remember - if she is cheating - being a dick just gives her more of a reason to leave you. But if you're not in love with her after that, I guess that's not an issue...

You know, in Japan, it's acceptable to have sex with another partner, as long as you don't love them or care for them. It's just a transaction.

Ah well, the world is nuts. Good luck.

redeye be

Jun 3, 2005, 03:43 AM

I didn't bother reading anybody else's posts, but I doubt anybody said this:
That is just great!

...

Next time maybe try to read them through, even if it's at a glance.

wordmunger

Jun 3, 2005, 05:38 AM

Would you be more upset if your S.O. slept with another person, or if they fell in love with another person but never consummated it physically?

There have been psychological studies indicating that most men are more upset when women "cheat" by having sex with another man. Most women are more upset when men "cheat" by falling in love with another woman.

crachoar

Jun 3, 2005, 07:22 AM

...Next time maybe try to read them through, even if it's at a glance.

No thanks. My night sucked, wasn't in the mood for reading the same cookie-cutter reponses over and over. I'll take your suggestion into consideration, if I feel like it, next time. :D

mad jew

Jun 3, 2005, 07:26 AM

No thanks. My night sucked, wasn't in the mood for reading the same cookie-cutter reponses over and over. I'll take your suggestion into consideration, if I feel like it, next time. :D

Sorry to hear that but it really doesn't help anyone if you just come into a thread and add some thoughts without having a little look to see what direction the thread has taken.

I hope tomorrow's a better day. :)

groovebuster

Jun 3, 2005, 07:32 AM

For me it is as simple as that:

1. Cheating starts in the mind, not with actions.

2. Cheating is defined by your partner, not by yourself. Ideally both partners agree on what cheating means to them. That is something that should be well discussed before getting too close with somebody. The bigger the disagreement on that subject, the more somebody will definitely get hurt in the future and it should be considered to end the relationship, since it doesn't have any future anyway...

groovebuster

yellow

Jun 3, 2005, 08:18 AM

My wife has a friend whom she shares all sorts of things of tis ilk with.. thanksfully her friend lives very far away, but the 2 of them are on the phone constantly for very long periods of time clucking away like 2 hens. When they hang up, the tell each other "I love you". Now, sometimes it ticks me off.. but most of the time I ignore it. But if your GF is sharing these things with her friend, perhaps it's more like a sybling thing. In which case, you shouldn't be ticked. However, if your GF is more willing to share this info with her friend and not you.. well, then you've got a problem that needs to be solved.

ziwi

Jun 3, 2005, 08:24 AM

I like groove buster's number 1 and agree.

I think it can be defined by doing some simple self test - an example the Golden Rule - Do unto others as you would have them do unto you type thing.

If you find yorself questining behavior then perhaps you should not be doing it ;)

Project from one partner to the other - if you are doing something is it OK for the other to do the same thing and you would not have any issue? If so then it is probably fine. Conversely, if they are doing some thing and you wouldn't because you feel it is wrong then it is wrong.

The problem is that each person has their own idea of right and wrong so the projection method would be an issue due to no difinitive right or wrong. Going back to the groove buster - if you have the thought of something 'more' ever occuring in your mind then the path is set. I like to think of it as the 'when Harry met Sally rule' - a man and a woman can not be friends without the thought or potential of something more happening - and I think that is true - at least from a guy's perspective.

Also it would seem that if your relationship is the most important then you would come first and have more interest and have more time expended upon versus the other.

efoto

Jun 3, 2005, 09:43 AM

Cheating is definitely user defined on a per-relationship status. You really need to sit down and discuss what would potentially hurt you both and figure out some base level guidelines that you are both comfortable keeping.

That said, it is very hard to hold some lines in practice. I am a very jealous person in most aspects of life, especially when it comes to relationships. When I started dating my last girlfriend things progressed very quickly and she initiated ‘the talk’ about what made her uncomfortable for me to do. I countered with a few things she did that irked me wrong, and we agreed, no problems. A while later, I was out to dinner with my best friend (a very attractive, tall, slim, volleyball player) who my gf was very jealous of, having never even met her! We had said it was fine to go out with our friends (of other sex) as long as things didn’t progress, which I was not worried about.

Out to dinner with my friend, and then afterwards she asks if we can go downtown and if I would take some photos of her again (as I have in the past) because she likes to have nice pictures for her family and friends (apparently she likes my photos :D ), so we go downtown and long story short, a friend of my gf sees us, freaks out, calls her, etc etc. I get home later in the evening (as planned) and my gf just flips and starts crying saying she knew I was downtown taking photos of my friend, etc. I was like, I know, that is what we do sometimes, it doesn’t ‘mean’ anything to me, its for her.

Point being, some things are just downright hard to take. Apparently she felt there was some romantic attachment to me taking photos of my friend (since photography is a big hobby of mine). She saw a major connection between my friend and my hobby, and her mind ran with it. She was wrong, and I made her see that, but the initial discussion was crazy!

I guess my point is that no matter what you define, the major point is that you both TRUST one another, because situation will always LOOK bad, but seldom are that way. If you cannot trust her, there is no point in being with her, it only causes you pain.

mischief

Jun 3, 2005, 10:51 AM

Most of this issue comes down to the same basic things that it takes to make a relationship healthy in the first place.

Communication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication)

If you're not talking about something you're opening your relationship up to dammage from that direction. The more that goes on without communication, the larger the potential dammage.

Honesty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honesty)

If you aren't honest and genuine in your communication all the talk in the world cannot save your relationship. Duplicitude in any form is the single worst thing you can do to your relationship. If there's something that your SO shouldn't know for their own good and is otherwise harmless simply state that you cannot mention specifics and explain exactly why. This keeps honesty in the game even for birthdays and confidentiality not pertinent to the relationship.

Trust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust)/Honor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor)

If you feel that your actions are not honoring your SO or feel that your SO is being untrustworthy EFFECT CHANGE IMMEDIATELY. However, Don't Panic... Stay calm, explain yourself apologize for being upset, keep communicating until everything's clear and honest between you. If you can't trust yourself and/or your SO then you shouldn't be in a relationship. If your SO just doesn't get it and acts in a manner that dishonors you even after you've expressed your feelings by all means, move on. There are billions of other eligible humans out there.

Integrity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity)

Keep the lines open and pay attention! If you have an intuition that something hanky is going on see above!! Your consistent commitment to communicating, honesty and trust will be the core bedrock for your relationship. If you are inconsistent or ever bite your tongue when you know better or flip out randomly you've destroyed that sense of security that is essential to being respected, trusted and loved.

I've been with my wife one way or another for better than ten years. There've been some nasty incidents. We stayed true to our principles (above) and worked it out. Our relationship has grown and matured. Both of us are better, stronger people for it and we're treating each other with more compassion every year as a result. If either one of us feels like straying we talk about it and figure out why. In doing so we've always been able to figure out a way to stay within the bounds of each other's comfort zone.

zelmo

Jun 3, 2005, 11:01 AM

Physical contact has nothing (or at least damn little) to do with it. If I know in my heart it is wrong, then it is cheating. It would also be cheating if I would avoid telling my wife because I knew it would hurt her. That might be a different threshold for every person. Meaning, it might be fine with my wife if I go to lunch with one woman, but that my wife would get upset if she thought I'd even talked to another one, say an ex-, on the phone.

Of course, as relationships go, I'm an "all in" or "all out" kind of guy.

ExoticFish

Jun 3, 2005, 11:17 AM

i heard a really good definition of cheating: Doing anything with a person that you wouldn't do with you S.O. standing right there.

i really like that definition.

yellow

Jun 3, 2005, 11:19 AM

i heard a really good definition of cheating: Doing anything with a person that you wouldn't do with you S.O. standing right there.

Hopefully my wife knows I'm a voyeuristic perv.

feakbeak

Jun 3, 2005, 11:43 AM

i heard a really good definition of cheating: Doing anything with a person that you wouldn't do with you S.O. standing right there.

i really like that definition.I like that too, good rule to live by, IMO.

mischief, good post. Although you've touched on it under many of the items you listed I would have also explicitly listed respect. Many of the qualities you list involve respect in various ways, but I think most all of those attributes are a direct result of respect. For me that is the single most important aspect of a realtionship, mutual respect.

sushi

Jun 3, 2005, 11:55 AM

You know, in Japan, it's acceptable to have sex with another partner, as long as you don't love them or care for them. It's just a transaction.
Obviously you do not have a clue.

Sushi

mischief

Jun 3, 2005, 12:01 PM

I like that too, good rule to live by, IMO.

mischief, good post. Although you've touched on it under many of the items you listed I would have also explicitly listed respect. Many of the qualities you list involve respect in various ways, but I think most all of those attributes are a direct result of respect. For me that is the single most important aspect of a realtionship, mutual respect.

Thanker.

That's exactly what I was trying to get across. If you don't respect your SO or they don't respect you I advise you ask yourself why you're in a relationship with them. If the answer is that you love them (be careful with that one, there's a lot of infatuation masking as love out there) than you'd better get busy on building some respect between you damn fast.

It's a lot simpler to keep things i 1 of 2 modes: Short term recreational or Long Term Comitted.

STR relationships can (and should) end the moment things get even a little bit funky.

LTC relationships should be worked on and salvaged by any and all means.

Can't tell the difference? There's a simple determiner: Kids. Once kids are involved you absolutely MUST preserve as much of that relationship as possible to make sure that child has the best possible environment. You MUST have a healthy and thriving relationship BEFORE having kids or life will be hell for all involved for at least 20 years.

Conversely, if you find yourself getting more comitted than you want to with someone you're not comfortable having kids with MOVE ON, it's a STR and therefore expendable. If you want kids and your SO doesn't but you think they'd be a good parent, try the above respect and open lines of communication... either you'll come to a consensus or break up. Either result is better than violating that simple respect.

It's all about compassion. The moment you allow your ego or your lust to overcome your respect for your SO and your compassion you're no longer human (see: Dune) and no longer fit for a relationship.

sushi

Jun 3, 2005, 12:07 PM

i heard a really good definition of cheating: Doing anything with a person that you wouldn't do with you S.O. standing right there.
You know, that is an excellent definition.

This takes into account differences in people and relationships, yet indicates boundaries.

Cool.

Many years ago, a buddy of mine had an open marriage. We were stationed in Korea and traveled the orient. His wife was in the states. All was good for him having a good time, and we did as we sampled what the local places had to offer. I asked him a time or two, if his wife really didn't mind. He said that she didn't. As long as it was for sex only.

Well one day he gets a letter, and his wife is explaining about an upcoming weekend trip with this guy she has been sexually active. The sex part didn't bother my buddy. But the fact that she was taking a trip sent him over the edge. He was a basket case.

In later years I saw similar occurances with those having open marriages. In most cases, these types of marriages seemed one sided where one partner benefitted much more than the other from the relationship.

What I do know, is that relationships are built on trust. Once you lose that, the relationship is lost. In most cases, you can never recover once trust has been compromised.

So that brings me to the definition above. Nice and simple and captures everything in a simple way.

Sushi

mischief

Jun 3, 2005, 12:24 PM

Many years ago, a buddy of mine had an open marriage. We were stationed in Korea and traveled the orient. His wife was in the states. All was good for him having a good time, and we did as we sampled what the local places had to offer. I asked him a time or two, if his wife really didn't mind. He said that she didn't. As long as it was for sex only.

Well one day he gets a letter, and his wife is explaining about an upcoming weekend trip with this guy she has been sexually active. The sex part didn't bother my buddy. But the fact that she was taking a trip sent him over the edge. He was a basket case.

This sounds like vengeance. "How do you like it Bob?"

It seems that neither party actually had much respect.

zelmo

Jun 3, 2005, 01:12 PM

Mischief and feakbeak, I really dug your comments. Several others, too (hate to leave everyone out). But the best definition yet is this one:

i heard a really good definition of cheating: Doing anything with a person that you wouldn't do with you S.O. standing right there.

i really like that definition.

Concisely written, and cuts right to the heart of the matter.

Might as well close the thread now.

:)

rainman::|:|

Jun 3, 2005, 01:34 PM

as everyone said, it depends on your relationship and boundaries. for my partner and i, well we're allowed to do whatever we want, as long as we don't start developing feelings for other people... if that happens, we're supposed to be honest about it, and stop being exposed to that person. But pure sex? No, that's nothing to end a relationship over. Especially when they won't even remember the other person's name in a week or two. To me, it's laughable that a drunken encounter with someone you thought was hot couldn't compare to the person you love, so it's silly to even try. they happen on such different levels.

but to each his own... and i'm not saying that we're both out having random sex because we can, and it's nice to know that when he spends time with me, it's because he wants to, not because he has to :)

i will say, mischief's definitions still only apply to some people, that makes a lot of moral judgments. Like, sex outside of a relationship is "disrespectful". Religion is the only force issuing that particular message, it's a moral call. Likewise I've seen kids that grew up with open parents, who are none the worse for it. But I've seen a lot of couples shattered by having open relationships. It just depends on who you're talking about.

anubis

Jun 3, 2005, 01:51 PM

feakbeak: You're probably right. Everything I posted of course is all in theory; as I mentioned in the post, my girlfriend and I havn't "tested" this yet (and don't plan on it).

It would take an unusually strong and understanding relationship to carry my ideas into practice.

kosmo

Jun 3, 2005, 02:01 PM

i heard a really good definition of cheating: Doing anything with a person that you wouldn't do with you S.O. standing right there.

i really like that definition.

Well I see that everyone really enjoyed this definition but for me it seems a bit silly and overly simplistic. If I'm out with a friend of mine and I comment to him on a woman's attractivness, am I cheating? I probably wouldn't say that if my girlfriend was standing right next to me.

Cheating is whatever the person being cheated upon wants it to be.

feakbeak

Jun 3, 2005, 02:01 PM

I would agree that most people treat physical exclusivity as a moral call that everyone should follow, I try not to, but I'll admit I struggle with it at times becuase it's such an emotionally-charged issue for me. Still, rationally I agree with you it is entirely up to those involved in the relationship. In your situation is in agreement with my paradigm - you are showing mutual respect to one another, so long as you follow the rules you've both agreed to.

<snip> mischief's definitions still only apply to some people <snip>I think mischief's definitions apply to most of the general population. I think there are those out there like you and your partner who are completely comfortable with the rules you have laid out and I think there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. However, I believe that people capable of and/or desire this type of open relationship are a minority in the population and for any two of them to find each other and be compatible is rare. So, for most people I think mischief's guidelines would benefit the relationship.

ExoticFish

Jun 3, 2005, 03:06 PM

QCassidy352

Jun 3, 2005, 03:49 PM

Well I see that everyone really enjoyed this definition but for me it seems a bit silly and overly simplistic. If I'm out with a friend of mine and I comment to him on a woman's attractivness, am I cheating? I probably wouldn't say that if my girlfriend was standing right next to me.

Cheating is whatever the person being cheated upon wants it to be.

I agree. I do like the definition, but I don't think it sums up all that needs to be said.

For example: If my gf casually flirted with a MOS that would upset me, and she probably wouldn't do it right in front of me, but I woudn't consider it "cheating." That's NOT to say I think it's ok, but I still don't think it rises to the level of real cheating because there is no fundamental breach of trust. I might not like it, but if it's all in fun and leads to neither physical contact nor to emotional involvement, I would definitely not feel betrayed by her actions.

Another example: porn. Your SO probably wouldn't be crazy about you looking at naked pictures of strangers, but would you really feel betrayed by them doing so? I guess the answer varies person to person, but those are two examples of things that I can see not wanting to do in front of your SO that don't really violate trust.

iindigo

Jun 3, 2005, 03:57 PM

The way I look at it, anything beyond a normal friendship level, sharing a thought or two occasionally is cheating... And even if it isn't, doing anything above normal friendship is most likely going to upset your other half.

IMO stuff such as french kissing is deep into cheating territory and I'd drop my girlfriend like a bad habit if I found out she was kissing someone else.

QCassidy352

Jun 3, 2005, 04:09 PM

IMO stuff such as french kissing is deep into cheating territory and I'd drop my girlfriend like a bad habit if I found out she was kissing someone else.

what about a one time thing with an old friend? does it matter? And even if it does matter, would you reason that she was just going to do it again at some point?

CubaTBird

Jun 3, 2005, 04:20 PM

iindigo

Jun 3, 2005, 04:20 PM

what about a one time thing with an old friend? does it matter? And even if it does matter, would you reason that she was just going to do it again at some point?

Yes it would matter, even if it was an old friend. If she can't remain faithful to me in such a small matter as that, what's it going to be when a more tempting situation meets her?

For me it's 100% faithful or she's out. And before you ask, yes I plan to be completely faithful to her too -

feakbeak

Jun 3, 2005, 04:42 PM

what about a one time thing with an old friend? does it matter? And even if it does matter, would you reason that she was just going to do it again at some point?There aren't any clear cut rules to go by. I think it is clear that she has cheated on you, given the fact that you have not agreed to an open relationship. Now, what you should do about it really depends on the circumstances of what has transpired, how you found (i.e. did she tell you, was she honest about it?), the length and seriousness of your relationship, whether you think things can work out in the long run, etc. There are a lot of factors to consider about whether or not to continue the relationship.

If it was an honest error of judgment on her part and was not a long, drawn-out emotional relationship with this old friend and she's committed to working things out with you and you can have faith in that (both emotionally and rationally/realistically) then perhaps you might want to try to make it work. No one here in this forum knows the situation like you do. I would recommend talking to close friends and family that know you and your girlfriend and see what their "vibes" are about the situation. People who are uninvolved can often pick up on things you may not have noticed or be aware of... however, if they are negative, they usually won't offer them up unless you come out and ask them for their opinions. I'm not saying to follow whatever they tell you, but their insight can be very valuable.

feakbeak

Jun 3, 2005, 04:48 PM

im so glad this thread came up b/c im having some weirdness of my own going on... well that girl that i asked out who said she had a bf... well ever since i have been getting mixed signals from her... in class she's constantly smiling and looking at me and what not.. im totally over the whole thing and want to move on obviously because she has a bf she keeps in touch with long distance (or so she told me)... ive basically been ignoring her, but she persists.. what should i do? today she made it a blatent point to leave a personal possession of hers in the lunch area when i was just talkin and hanging with my friends, (she sat behind us).. now i have this thing of her's and will deff give it back on monday.. but is she playing me here? i mean i was upfront with her on wanting to go out with her why can't she be up front with me?

quizás hay un secreto en sus labios? :rolleyes:IMO, sounds like she is playing games. I would be careful if I were you. Ask yourself, "Do I want to be with someone who is unwilling to be upfront and honest with me about her intentions?" The answer is probably yes and no. Your heart says yes, your brain says no. I have found it is usually best to follow your brain in situations like these.

If you want to clear up the confusion quickly, be direct and simply tell her that you've been sensing mixed signals from her ever since you expressed your interest. You know she has a boyfriend so things aren't adding up in your head. Ask her what gives. She'll either be honest with you, which should resolve the confusion OR (and I'm placing my wager here) she'll be evasive with her response. In the latter case... run for the hills my friend! :)

QCassidy352

Jun 3, 2005, 05:42 PM

There aren't any clear cut rules to go by. I think it is clear that she has cheated on you, given the fact that you have not agreed to an open relationship. Now, what you should do about it really depends on the circumstances of what has transpired, how you found (i.e. did she tell you, was she honest about it?), the length and seriousness of your relationship, whether you think things can work out in the long run, etc. There are a lot of factors to consider about whether or not to continue the relationship.

I agree, it was definitely cheating. I never would have found out if she had not told me, but she told me just this week, and it happened 11 months ago. If she had told me as soon as it happened it would have been so much better.

If it was an honest error of judgment on her part and was not a long, drawn-out emotional relationship with this old friend and she's committed to working things out with you and you can have faith in that (both emotionally and rationally/realistically) then perhaps you might want to try to make it work.

Well, as far as "making it work," I only found out after we had broken up, which happened in large part because of her emotional cheating with a different guy (18 hour phone conversation, to give you an idea what we are talking about).

We had been together over four years continuously until last week. For the vast majority of the time we were together we were extremely happy and I believed that she was completely and totally devoted to me. The irony is that during our whole relationship she was nearly paranoid with jealousy at the thought of me cheating on her. I never believed it was possible that she could cheat on me. I know everyone thinks that about their SO, but she would constantly say not only how much she loved me, but that she had absolutely no desire to be with anyone else, that she would much rather have our relationship than meet more guys and experiment, etc.

I know many of you will think that she's just a liar and can't be trusted, but I don't see it that way. Maybe I'm blinded by the amount that I still care about her. But until recently, both of us thought that we would get married and be together for the rest of our lives - I can't just give up on that, no matter how hurt I am right now.

We have both said that we think we'd like to get back together at some point in the future, barring unforseen events while separated. I know that I still care tremendously about her, but I guess now I'm questioning whether I could ever really trust her if we were to get back together. What good is even all the love in the world if there's no trust to go along with it?

Is it ever possible to really have trust again once it's been broken?

CubaTBird

Jun 3, 2005, 05:55 PM

IMO, sounds like she is playing games. I would be careful if I were you. Ask yourself, "Do I want to be with someone who is unwilling to be upfront and honest with me about her intentions?" The answer is probably yes and no. Your heart says yes, your brain says no. I have found it is usually best to follow your brain in situations like these.

If you want to clear up the confusion quickly, be direct and simply tell her that you've been sensing mixed signals from her ever since you expressed your interest. You know she has a boyfriend so things aren't adding up in your head. Ask her what gives. She'll either be honest with you, which should resolve the confusion OR (and I'm placing my wager here) she'll be evasive with her response. In the latter case... run for the hills my friend! :)

when you say evasive.. you mean like blow up in my face lol? if so then yowza...
:p

QCassidy352

Jun 3, 2005, 07:34 PM

when you say evasive.. you mean like blow up in my face lol? if so then yowza...
:p

well yes, that's the third possibility. :P My thought is that you don't want to get involved with a girl like this unless you are prepared to put up with a lot of mind games...

CubaTBird

Jun 7, 2005, 02:47 PM

well yes, that's the third possibility. :P My thought is that you don't want to get involved with a girl like this unless you are prepared to put up with a lot of mind games...

yeah i gave back her "possession" (lets just keep it at that ;) ) and she said thanks and what not... though she didn't take the convo any where else.. so im over it.. case closed lol.. i think ill have her sign my yearbook and leave it at that lol.. for the experience more than anything else..

snkTab

Jun 7, 2005, 05:56 PM

This is an issue of great importance to me right now. I am interested to know what you all think consitutes "cheating" in an exclusive romantic relationship.

Anything the old lady will bitch about. Did I say "anything", I meant "everything"

But really, it's individual to the relationship. If your gf going to cut off your balls afterwards, it's probally cheating.

oldschool

Jun 7, 2005, 11:28 PM

Looking at someone elses paper while writing a test.

efoto

Jun 8, 2005, 03:46 AM

I agree, it was definitely cheating. I never would have found out if she had not told me, but she told me just this week, and it happened 11 months ago. If she had told me as soon as it happened it would have been so much better.

Well, as far as "making it work," I only found out after we had broken up, which happened in large part because of her emotional cheating with a different guy (18 hour phone conversation, to give you an idea what we are talking about).

We had been together over four years continuously until last week. For the vast majority of the time we were together we were extremely happy and I believed that she was completely and totally devoted to me. The irony is that during our whole relationship she was nearly paranoid with jealousy at the thought of me cheating on her. I never believed it was possible that she could cheat on me. I know everyone thinks that about their SO, but she would constantly say not only how much she loved me, but that she had absolutely no desire to be with anyone else, that she would much rather have our relationship than meet more guys and experiment, etc.

I know many of you will think that she's just a liar and can't be trusted, but I don't see it that way. Maybe I'm blinded by the amount that I still care about her. But until recently, both of us thought that we would get married and be together for the rest of our lives - I can't just give up on that, no matter how hurt I am right now.

We have both said that we think we'd like to get back together at some point in the future, barring unforseen events while separated. I know that I still care tremendously about her, but I guess now I'm questioning whether I could ever really trust her if we were to get back together. What good is even all the love in the world if there's no trust to go along with it?

Is it ever possible to really have trust again once it's been broken?

Long answer short (since this is about you and not me, and I don't want it to be about me since I don't want to go there)...no, it never really works again. This is not to say that you cannot have something (perhaps only friendship, perhaps a new relationship) but it will NEVER be the same as it was before. You can tell yourself you want things to go back to how they were, but if you are being honest and you say she has hurt you and broke your trust, no amount of time in the world will make you forget that.

It really sucks, and sorry to tell you, but the experiences of myself and friends alike have all had this happen. I tried to make it work after the trust was broken, and it did for probably two weeks before I kept thinking about what happened while we were apart, and what forced us apart in the first place. I ended up just getting up one morning and saying, "I love you, but I'm leaving." I left it at that. We didn't talk for nearly two years, and now we IM probably once a month, just to make sure we are both alive.

Sorry to tell you. I hope it is perhaps different for you. If you go in, go in with your eyes open and also your heart, the latter probably being more important since it is the part most likely closed from the pain. No easy answers, let us know what you do.

mischief

Jun 8, 2005, 10:19 AM

Hmmm...

I find it necessary to defend my methodology.

My above formulae are tried and tested. They assume a genuine connection and a genuine desire for a long term, comitted relationship. As I mentioned, If you're not interested in commitment than no standards apply save: Get out the second you're no longer comfortable.

My above posts' emphasis on respect is not a call for moral judgement. It is a prerequisite for any friendship or relationship on any level. If you do not respect someone you're far more likely to not keep their best interests in mind, that is... you're far more likely to hurt them and yourself in the process.

Though on a rhetorical level the "nothing you wouldn't do in front of your SO" model works fine but on a practical level it precludes open and honest communication. If you have such rigid limitations on a relationship that flirtation is effectively removed from the picture than you're asking for trouble. If you're looking for a simple rule of thumb.... there really isn't one. Perhaps a better way to phrase the SO rule would be: "Nothing you know would hurt your SO to find out about second hand (and is something you're unlikely to tell them about yourself)"

The whole rationalle around a formula based on communication and re-enforced by respect and the acknowledgement of a future (commitment) together is to make a sustainable lifetime bond possible.

efoto

Jun 8, 2005, 10:29 AM

For anyone to expect that flirting is to come to an end is asking far to much of a person. Some people are naturally flirtatious, its part of their personality (I know, I am). This does not mean those people are flirting for the sake of starting new relationships and cheating on current ones, not at all.

If I am out to dinner with an SO and there is a cute waitress, save that, a fun waitress, I flirt with her because its my nature to do so. The trick is to continually show your SO that you CARE about them and that this flirting is nothing more than a buttered form of general communication. Things like this are more easily defined early on so she knows from the beginning that you are like this. If you try to suddenly start being flirty, of course she will wonder.

This differs from person to person, and in each relationship things are different. In my last relationship we were comfortable with eachother and we had no problem discussing other people in a perceivably romantic manor. If we were at the mall I would make comment on a womans dress, her hair, her lips, whatever I wanted to my SO as a topic of style and discussion. She in turn would do the same about men to me suggesting styles of clothes, shoes, appearances, etc. Some girls would have a problem if I was with them and said "that woman in front of us has an amazing butt, those pants show it off really nicely".

The moment you stop caring about someone deeply and romantically, you are already setup for hurt on both sides as mischief stated. Unless the relationship is centered around physical pleasure (basically a FTF setup) then you have a serious problem when one of you starts not caring. Only you can decide when to cut your losses and move on, but sometimes earlier is better and easier on the heart and soul.

swy32x

Jun 8, 2005, 10:54 AM

Looking at someone elses paper while writing a test.
Haha! I'm in exam mode now and thought this was what the thread was about before I clicked it!

Bravo! :p

mymemory

Jun 8, 2005, 11:02 AM

Easy answer...

Cheating is anything that goes agains any mutual agreement said or understood by the general social views of the relationship.

In other words... if you gf slept with some one else without telling you before is cheating. If she told you "I like that guy and I want to spend a night with him" sorry, she is not cheating :rolleyes:

That is why is so importnat the comunication in a relationship, to know what the espectations are. That is actually a lifetime process for many people because every one has family rules and we expect (without menaing it) that our parnerts fit in those rules and we on theirs.

That is why, in life, is importnat to socialize a lot so we can handle different points of views with an open mind.

mischief

Jun 8, 2005, 11:40 AM

Xenious

Jun 8, 2005, 12:50 PM

You know, in Japan, it's acceptable to have sex with another partner, as long as you don't love them or care for them. It's just a transaction.

[/pulp fiction speak]That's all there is too it. I'm going.[/pulp]

Guitarius

Jun 8, 2005, 01:22 PM

I haven't read all of the posts, so if this has already been said...too bad, I'm going to say it again.

I constitute cheating as any contact one partner has with someone outside the relationship that the other partner is not okay with. I know couples where it is perfectly acceptable to have sex with someone else, with or without the presence of the other partner. I know couples where it is acceptable to watch, but don't participate. I know couples where one is not allowed to go to strip clubs or look at porn. It all depends on the relationship, and the rules set down.

If there are no clearly defined rules for you, make some. There is absolutely nothing wrong with talking about these things with your partner. Infact, I think you should talk about these things. There is a serious lack of communication between couples for some reason or another. I just don't get it. Talk to them.

And I say this from experiance. Communication is the key to having a good, healthy relationship. Never be afraid to talk about things, whatever the topic may be, including what they consider to be cheating.

Crikey

Jun 8, 2005, 01:35 PM

( . . . )

If you were to sleep with some random stranger on a business trip, that's certainly cheating. But it's much less of a threat to your relationship than falling in love with another person.

BTW, my personal opinion is that you shouldn't cheat - it's too much of a pain in the ass sooner or later - but, if something happens, do not tell your partner. It might ease your conscience, but it'll just hurt them.

I agree with both of these points. Especially the last one. Learned the hard way.

Crikey

QCassidy352

Jun 8, 2005, 06:33 PM

I agree with both of these points. Especially the last one. Learned the hard way.

Crikey

I disagree. What hurts them is that you cheated on them - not that you told the truth about it. A relationship that can only continue based on dishonesty is not a relationship worth having. If you truly love and respect your partner you'll own up to what you did and let them decide if they can forgive you. To decide that it is better for them to not hear about your infidelity is dishonest and patronizing; they have a right to know, even if it hurts.

Long answer short (since this is about you and not me, and I don't want it to be about me since I don't want to go there)...no, it never really works again. This is not to say that you cannot have something (perhaps only friendship, perhaps a new relationship) but it will NEVER be the same as it was before. You can tell yourself you want things to go back to how they were, but if you are being honest and you say she has hurt you and broke your trust, no amount of time in the world will make you forget that.

It really sucks, and sorry to tell you, but the experiences of myself and friends alike have all had this happen. I tried to make it work after the trust was broken, and it did for probably two weeks before I kept thinking about what happened while we were apart, and what forced us apart in the first place. I ended up just getting up one morning and saying, "I love you, but I'm leaving." I left it at that. We didn't talk for nearly two years, and now we IM probably once a month, just to make sure we are both alive.

Sorry to tell you. I hope it is perhaps different for you. If you go in, go in with your eyes open and also your heart, the latter probably being more important since it is the part most likely closed from the pain. No easy answers, let us know what you do.

Thank you very much for that thoughtful response. It makes me sad to read about you and your ex, but it's still something I should hear. I believe that my ex and I will never have what we once did, but that we could some day be together again, in a "new" relationship. As of now, that is not what either of us want, but having been together 4 years and cared about each other very very deeply, I can definitely see it as a possibility in the future. I will certainly keep in mind what you said, though - it would have to be something new, not just trying to reconstruct our old relationship.

feakbeak

Jun 8, 2005, 07:27 PM

I disagree. What hurts them is that you cheated on them - not that you told the truth about it. A relationship that can only continue based on dishonesty is not a relationship worth having. If you truly love and respect your partner you'll own up to what you did and let them decide if they can forgive you. To decide that it is better for them to not hear about your infidelity is dishonest and patronizing; they have a right to know, even if it hurts.I concur. It would be interesting to see if those who feel you shouldn't tell the other person about infidelity have cheated on their S.O. and/or if they've been cheated by their S.O.

Telilng the truth can be just as difficult for the cheater as it is for their partner. If you truly care about your S.O. being honest and telilng the truth will obviously hurt them immensely and in turn will cause you a great deal of pain to see first-hand what you have inflicted upon your partner. Whether you tell your partner or not does not change how you have disrespected your relationship and your partner, so I don't think the "sparing their feelings" argument is valid. I agree with QCassidy, it's simply patronizing to use that as a defense to avoid honesty.

I've been cheated on and told and I've been cheated on and deceived (I found out indirectly after the relationship was over). Given the choice between being hurt by honesty or remain ignorant by deception... I'd take the brutal honesty any day - it shows respect and for me respect and honesty are more important than feelings. You may disagree, but if you haven't been on the receiving end of cheating, I wouldn't be so quick to assume what is best for a person in that situation.

efoto

Jun 9, 2005, 08:31 AM

Thank you very much for that thoughtful response. It makes me sad to read about you and your ex, but it's still something I should hear. I believe that my ex and I will never have what we once did, but that we could some day be together again, in a "new" relationship. As of now, that is not what either of us want, but having been together 4 years and cared about each other very very deeply, I can definitely see it as a possibility in the future. I will certainly keep in mind what you said, though - it would have to be something new, not just trying to reconstruct our old relationship.

I think the key for you two is to take some time and, as silly as this may sound, get to know yourselves a little more. I say without knowing either of you personally, but I have seen in many friends relationships that they grow so much with the other person, they don't take the time to grow personally and develop their own [insert what have you]. This is not to say long-term relationships are bad by any means, just saying take the time to make sure you are happy with your own life, then when that is settled, you can pursue having that joint life back if you both so choose.

There is hope for you two, especially with four years under your belts and deep feelings you say you both have for eachother. The key for the future is you make sure your eyes are open, and as painful as it may be, you simply must trust one another. If not, don't even bother to start things up again, you're setting yourself up for even more pain.

Do NOT forget what happened (learn from mistakes {yours or hers} and don't let them happen again), but do NOT continually bring it up and NEVER use it as an arguement for "I may have done this, but you did that!", that goes NO WHERE FAST (I know, I can be quite dense and emotionally driven to say stupid things at times). As hard as it might be, try not to rush right back into a relationship with her. Its important to that you both want to come back and feel comfortable doing so, at the same time. Waiting sucks, but it must be done sometimes.