19inch LCD's and PowerBooks November 5, 2002

[MacRumors]

MacPlus.org (http://www.macplus.org/magplus/article.php?id_article=2659) reports that November 5, 2002 will be the release day for new PowerBooks and an Apple 19" LCD:

- 19" LCD
- 1600x1024
- Final product line 17", 19" and 23"
- Not shipping until December

New Powerbook due on the same date.

[vollspacken]

Originally posted by Macrumors
MacPlus.org (http://www.macplus.org/magplus/article.php?id_article=2659) reports that November 5, 2002 will be the release day for new PowerBooks and an Apple 19" LCD:

New Powerbook due on the same date.

YEEEESSSS!!! Please:( ...

[DHagan4755]

Geez, another date. I sure hope they're right. I've grown weary of built-up expectations only for them to come and go without any new products.

[Over Achiever]

Originally posted by DHagan4755
Geez, another date. I sure hope they're right. I've grown weary of built-up expectations only for them to come and go without any new products.

Same here. Hopefully this is the real deal.

[Choppaface]

so this will probably be the last powerbook that will be able to run OS9 eh? looks like it might be a good time to upgrade...

[beez7777]

very nice, hope its true:D

[dotcomlarry]

No more 22"? I hope that means the 23" comes down to the 22's level ($2000 would be better)....

So, 17" @ $999, 19" @ $1500, 23" @ $2000 (or $2500)? I hope so.

[SilvorX]

i just dont believe this :( lol, theres been rumors of powerbooks coming out many times since august...but we'll have to wait n see, but a powerbook is way too expensive for me...if they kept the current 667 model n took off $1000 CDN to it or something, idd buy it

[rice_web]

Only the iBook is in my price range, and even then it barely sneaks into what I'd like to spend. Give us news of an iBook update!

[MDiddy]

If this is true, then the 19" LCD will take over the $999 price point. 19" LCD's can be found from other vendors now for about $800, so it better be at least competitive. I suspect the 17" LCD will be dropped and replaced with a 17" LCD Widescreen style display. My guess would be at most $799. Then maybe we'll see the HD for $2799 or something like that. Just in time for Christmas :)

the 22" @ 1600x1024 is just too damn lo-res for OS X. The icons are enormous compared to the 23's 1920x1200


I am crossing my fingers for a new PowerBook!!! It *may* very well be my first :)

[Stelliform]

OK, How does November 19th sound if the 5th doesn't pan out? :D

[MacManiac1224]

i hope this is right

[Hawthorne]

is my poor ol' Visa card, about to get another workout. :D

[RBMaraman]

Originally posted by Choppaface
so this will probably be the last powerbook that will be able to run OS9 eh? looks like it might be a good time to upgrade...

I wouldn't put it past Apple to release a new PowerBook on the 5th, and not ship it until after January 1st. That way they wouldn't have to fool with OS 9, and they would have Jaguar pre-loaded. Like Steve said, OS 9 is dead, and it would be smart for Apple to start eliminating it in each new product release for this point on. One OS is going to help switchers figure out what they are doing much easier.

[medea]

I've been looking into getting an iBooks because it's more in my price range, but when the new powerbooks come out how much of a price drop do you think the current ones will have?

[djniche]

I bought a 667mhz powerbook about two months ago and as always technology is just updated so fast. But I have to say I love this computer (writting on it now) I can pretty much do all I can on a powermac and I can't complain about speed. I did pay premium price for it but don't regret it at all.

I hope to see the new line to be 933mhz and 1gz models.

If the 19" is true would be a great! and many people will likely get it. People that couldnt affor the 22"

17" 19" 23 line makes sense to me.

[topicolo]

I don't understand why apple keeps trying to move their overall price range up... Why do they have to discontinue their 15" LCD? I think it's absurd to consider yourself a consumer oriented computer company when your cheapest LCD monitor is $999!

[gandalf55]

I think it's absurd to consider yourself a consumer oriented computer company when your LCD cheapest monitor is $999!

that's a very valid point. i drool over these large LCDs but i simply can't pay these prices for a monitor that i pay for a desktop system. the 15" isn't much of a main monitor but it could certainly be a nice palette monitor. and for some, it could serve as a main display (they only do email, word, etc.) i'd like the 15" to stick around. maybe someday i can get a 19" lcd is the price is right. i have 4 giant crts generating oodles of heat around me right now - and taking up all but a keyboard's worth of space on my desks.

[scem0]

Right now, CRTs offer good enough quality and resolution to make LCDs not worth the money unless you really like pretty things :D. I am using an apple CRT 17 " studio display and I love it. No need for an LCD till they go down in price.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Macrumors
MacPlus.org (http://www.macplus.org/magplus/article.php?id_article=2659) reports that November 5, 2002 will be the release day for new PowerBooks and an Apple 19" LCD:

- 19" LCD
- 1600x1024
- Final product line 17", 19" and 23"
- Not shipping until December

New Powerbook due on the same date.

wow, I guessed this in June, crazy?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?postid=86578#post86578

I hope they can come up with something that will compete nicely with Formac 2010 in quality and price. Formac has a 2 dead pixel deal, that if you have more than 2 they replace the monitor. I don't think Apple will do that.

D

[Chisholm]

Originally posted by scem0
Right now, CRTs offer good enough quality and resolution to make LCDs not worth the money unless you really like pretty things :D. I am using an apple CRT 17 " studio display and I love it. No need for an LCD till they go down in price.

Ah, but dude, have you seen a 17" Apple LCD? They are SO beautiful!!!! (image wise, not for just aesthetic reasons)

[arn]

Originally posted by dukestreet


wow, I guessed this in June, crazy?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?postid=86578#post86578


Railhead mentioned it in December 2001 ;)

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2001/12/20011202023546.shtml

arn

[reyesmac]

I really want an LCD monitor, a widescreen 17" inch would be great for around $600. But, since I don't have a newish ADC enabled Mac, I will have to look at getting a 17" that can be connected to tv's and computers for a lower price. I have seen what windows looks like on alot of LCD's but not what the Mac OS does.

Does the OS matter when looking at LCD's on display in stores?

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by dukestreet


wow, I guessed this in June, crazy?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?postid=86578#post86578

I hope they can come up with something that will compete nicely with Formac 2010 in quality and price. Formac has a 2 dead pixel deal, that if you have more than 2 they replace the monitor. I don't think Apple will do that.

D

Someone at macnn just ordered the Formac and I'm looking into it. He;s gonna give me a review after he gets it. I will sacrifice the 1" down to get a 650:1 contrast ratio compared to Apple's 350:1. So it the Formac is nice, I'll put my CD on ebay and get the $1700 Formac and might make a little cash extra.

[Screamingbeaver]

Does anyone have specs on the PowerBook Rev? Any guess, or confirmed details would be cool. I''ve been waiting to replace my Pismo for quite a while. I just hate it everytime I buy gear and they rev it the next week. It happend with my G4 tower, my Pismo, and my SuperMac Clone back in '98.

"Beaver

[mphatik]

Originally posted by Choppaface
so this will probably be the last powerbook that will be able to run OS9 eh? looks like it might be a good time to upgrade...

•••ALERT•••ALERT•••ALERT•••

•••Man, ***** Mac OS 9.x.x!! 9 is dead!! Get with the program and make the jump to X! People that still wanna run 9 just make no sense. ***THIS NEWSBRIEF JUST IN--> MAC OS 9 is an ANTIQUATED OS!*** It served the Mac Community well for many years so let it pass on ALREADY!!•••

[Hawthorne]

Any news on a new iMac with a bigger screen as well?

[chromos]

Originally posted by mphatik


•••ALERT•••ALERT•••ALERT•••

•••Man, ***** Mac OS 9.x.x!! 9 is dead!! Get with the program and make the jump to X! People that still wanna run 9 just make no sense. ***THIS NEWSBRIEF JUST IN--> MAC OS 9 is an ANTIQUATED OS!*** It served the Mac Community well for many years so let it pass on ALREADY!!•••

Actually, there is one reason why OS9 is very impt for laptops, at least my Pismo: in order to override the stupid Media controls (or Hot Function keys) that are enabled by default in OS X over the normal Function keys.

Why? I have an app switcher where I've assigned my function keys to difft apps. I had to go into OS9 to turn off the default behavior of "Reduce Brightness" for the F1 key, so that I can switch to the Finder by hitting F1.

If anyone knows of a CLI way of turning off the media controls in OS X (there must be one, no?), I'd love to know.

[andrewh]

Originally posted by Kid Red


Someone at macnn just ordered the Formac and I'm looking into it. He;s gonna give me a review after he gets it. I will sacrifice the 1" down to get a 650:1 contrast ratio compared to Apple's 350:1. So it the Formac is nice, I'll put my CD on ebay and get the $1700 Formac and might make a little cash extra.

If you want my review of the Gallery 2010 I'll give it to you. I just got mine today, and man, it is simply awesome. Stunning. So bright, and the colors are are so rich. Zero dead pixels. I was waiting for apple to release new displays and thought about two 17's or the 22" cinema but went for the Formac and I'm really happy with it. I'd love to compare this display side by side with an Apple to know for sure, but I think this one is actually better. Or, at least as good for a lot less money. It's 600:1 contrast and 250 nits brightness. Looks awesome in the middle of the Soundsticks. If you can wait until December or January for a new Apple display it might be worth it but you can't go wrong with the Gallery 2010.

[edenwaith]

Originally posted by topicolo
I don't understand why apple keeps trying to move their overall price range up... Why do they have to discontinue their 15" LCD? I think it's absurd to consider yourself a consumer oriented computer company when your cheapest LCD monitor is $999!

Exactly. It would be nice if the 15" remained but was pushed down to $400 and 17" to $600 or $700. At least during the initial release, I think that the 15" and 17" would be selling quite well. The 15" would be even more affordable, and for those who had $600 could also get a beautiful and larger monitor. But if the 17" is released at $600 or less, I'm getting one. However, if it is more than that, forget it. I'll just have to wait at least another half year and get a nice, well paying job. Then again, if I make more than $10,000 a year, I'll probably feel rich for awhile.

[cb911]

sweet! new TiBooks finally!!

but when will they be shipping? don't tell me January...:(

[john123]

Originally posted by mphatik


•••ALERT•••ALERT•••ALERT•••

•••Man, ***** Mac OS 9.x.x!! 9 is dead!! Get with the program and make the jump to X! People that still wanna run 9 just make no sense. ***THIS NEWSBRIEF JUST IN--> MAC OS 9 is an ANTIQUATED OS!*** It served the Mac Community well for many years so let it pass on ALREADY!!•••

This remark irked me enough to bring me out of months of hiding to respond.

Mac OS 9 is not "antiquated" whatsoever. It's a solid, stable OS that is, from a performance perspective, leaps and bounds ahead of OS X. Even if you have the latest hardware (which I do), the two aren't comparable by any benchmarks. And those differences really kick in while multitasking -- an area in which OS X was supposed to, in theory, excel.

For anyone who cares about the speed of their machine (which, in the business world, is proportional to their productivity), 9 simply makes far more sense. It's Apple that needs to "get with the program" and optimize X to make it at least on par with 9. There are a lot of us out there who couldn't care less about antialiased, shadowed fonts. We like our blocky fonts and our Apple menu and our low bit-depth icons precisely because they make our machines faster. We like to be able to turn off stuff (i.e., extensions and control panels) we don't need to make our machines faster.

Don't lecture me on speed not being "the only thing that matters," either. There's a reason why the microprocessor industry is a multi-billion dollar industry. Speed counts. If you don't think speed counts, then stop using whatever computer you're using right now and go pick up an old Quadra or Centris...or even one of the first Power Macs. See how long you can tolerate it. When you have grown ACCUSTOMED to speed, and it's suddenly taken away from you (as is the case with those of us running 9 on newer hardware), it feels unbearable.

It's time for Apple to step it up and devote some of that R&D money currently designated for iApps to OS optimization. If the new PowerBooks won't run 9, Apple won't be getting my money...and I daresay I'm not alone in this regard, either.

[Mirage_]

Originally posted by topicolo
I don't understand why apple keeps trying to move their overall price range up... Why do they have to discontinue their 15" LCD? I think it's absurd to consider yourself a consumer oriented computer company when your cheapest LCD monitor is $999!

No one said you had to buy an apple monitor. No one said you had to buy an LCD. Go to the store and purchase a monitor that is more in your price range. They don't make LCD's. They buy LCD's from LCD makers (insert japanese company name here), and put them in a pretty case. Until the price of the raw materials comes down, the apple LCD prices are going to be high. Its really not under their control. I'd think that they are actually *helping* the situation(lcd prices) by moving to an all LCD line, because it puts more LCD's into the market. They probably discontinued the 15inch LCD because people didn't want to pay the high price for such a small monitor. So people were probably choosing to purchase a 17 inch LCD, get a monitor else where, or use an existing monitor. They are simply cuting out an unpopular item. You're kind of an asshole for posting **** like that when you make no attempt to understand the situation or why LCD prices in general(not just apple) are more expensive than CRT. Just about any technology starts off this way. It's expensive when it comes out because there is not enough demand to just start pumping out tons and tons of the product. As more orders come in, they get enough base capital and confidence(they aren't going to make a billion monitors and have them sit in the stock room?) to start mass production, which means buying massive amounts of raw materials @ cheaper rates, which means they can charge LESS for the product, and make a BIGGER profit. And the price decrease encourages people to BUY the product, which makes them more MONEY. This is common sense. If you don't understand then I guess you haven't taken econ. in *high school* yet...or you're a pathetic 35yr old man who lives with his parents.

[Mirage_]

Originally posted by john123


This remark irked me enough to bring me out of months of hiding to respond.

Mac OS 9 is not "antiquated" whatsoever. It's a solid, stable OS that is, from a performance perspective, leaps and bounds ahead of OS X. Even if you have the latest hardware (which I do), the two aren't comparable by any benchmarks. And those differences really kick in while multitasking -- an area in which OS X was supposed to, in theory, excel.

For anyone who cares about the speed of their machine (which, in the business world, is proportional to their productivity), 9 simply makes far more sense. It's Apple that needs to "get with the program" and optimize X to make it at least on par with 9. There are a lot of us out there who couldn't care less about antialiased, shadowed fonts. We like our blocky fonts and our Apple menu and our low bit-depth icons precisely because they make our machines faster. We like to be able to turn off stuff (i.e., extensions and control panels) we don't need to make our machines faster.

Don't lecture me on speed not being "the only thing that matters," either. There's a reason why the microprocessor industry is a multi-billion dollar industry. Speed counts. If you don't think speed counts, then stop using whatever computer you're using right now and go pick up an old Quadra or Centris...or even one of the first Power Macs. See how long you can tolerate it. When you have grown ACCUSTOMED to speed, and it's suddenly taken away from you (as is the case with those of us running 9 on newer hardware), it feels unbearable.

It's time for Apple to step it up and devote some of that R&D money currently designated for iApps to OS optimization. If the new PowerBooks won't run 9, Apple won't be getting my money...and I daresay I'm not alone in this regard, either.

Nice, where did you the statistics on where apple is spending its R&D money? Oh thats right you've just got your *opinion* which is based on absolutely no data at all. So here is my opinion which is based on absolutely no data at all. There are separate teams working on OS X, and your 'iApps'. They don't rotate the OS and app guys on and off each month. The fact is, I'm sure both teams are working quite hard to optimize their respective products. Now, about not buying a PowerBook if it can't run OS 9. This is a dumb comment for several reasons. And here is why. Right now, we've got the babies and their OS 9 safety blanket. You're scared of UNIX and use some OS 10.0 beta speed b.s. in an effort to defend yourself. Productivity? How productive are you when your whole system crashes and you lose a bunch of work because of one program? Heres *my* hardware: Dual 1ghz G4 768mb DDR, Radeon 9000 Pro. On my machine, OS X owns OS 9 in every way. I haven't booted into OS 9 in well over a year. And I haven't missed it once. While you say OS 9 is a rock solid platform, I remember an OS that would lock up when any application crashed. This is not rock solid. Any one programmers bad code can bring your system to its knees. In OS X, this isn't a problem. Next, I truly believe Apples Developer Tools have brought many many new developers to the platform. Cocoa is simple to learn, and there are TONS of freeware / shareware apps out there from people who are just messing around to learn cocoa. In addition, a move to an ALL OS X platform forces developers who are clining to OS 9 to make the move to OS X. And makes it easier on developers who may have to keep up two copies of their source. I'd say the official death of OS 9 will be when the software stops getting posted for the platform on sites like macupdate and versiontracker.

[Marvenp]

The new PowerBook had better be something special. A few weeks ago I was forced to go shopping for a new Windows notebook for my company. I personally use a fully suped up PowerBook (1.0 GB Ram, 60GB IBM drive).

I was trying to find a Windows machine with similar features in an attractive case. Since I happen to live in Japan where we have all the latest gadgets, I thought it would be no problem, WRONG! Everything I found that was on the same performance level with the PB and with all of the features was dog ugly and weighed as much as my Japanese girlfriend.

But then I opened my e-mail today to find this CNet article:
http://www.cnet.com/techtrends/0-6014-7-20573465.html
Can anyone say PB clone? So the PB's better be re-designed to kick some Windose a$$!

[vniow]

Originally posted by Mirage_


No one said you had to buy an apple monitor. No one said you had to buy an LCD. Go to the store and purchase a monitor that is more in your price range. They don't make LCD's. They buy LCD's from LCD makers (insert japanese company name here), and put them in a pretty case. Until the price of the raw materials comes down, the apple LCD prices are going to be high. Its really not under their control. I'd think that they are actually *helping* the situation(lcd prices) by moving to an all LCD line, because it puts more LCD's into the market. They probably discontinued the 15inch LCD because people didn't want to pay the high price for such a small monitor. So people were probably choosing to purchase a 17 inch LCD, get a monitor else where, or use an existing monitor. They are simply cuting out an unpopular item. You're kind of an asshole for posting **** like that when you make no attempt to understand the situation or why LCD prices in general(not just apple) are more expensive than CRT. Just about any technology starts off this way. It's expensive when it comes out because there is not enough demand to just start pumping out tons and tons of the product. As more orders come in, they get enough base capital and confidence(they aren't going to make a billion monitors and have them sit in the stock room?) to start mass production, which means buying massive amounts of raw materials @ cheaper rates, which means they can charge LESS for the product, and make a BIGGER profit. And the price decrease encourages people to BUY the product, which makes them more MONEY. This is common sense. If you don't understand then I guess you haven't taken econ. in *high school* yet...or you're a pathetic 35yr old man who lives with his parents.


Jeez, what's with all the flames today?
I've seen more insults thrown out in this one day than I've seen in weeks.

You're right, nobody's forcing me to buy an Apple display, hell, even if I had the ca$h I wouldn't.
Why?
Cuz for the same price I can get better quality monitor with a few more features, like another input.

If I wanted a good sized Apple display, I'd go for this:
Apple 17" studio display: $999.00

Or if I shopped around I'd also look as this 19" Samsung:

Symcmaster 191T Silver (http://www.monitoroutlet.com/789205.html) $963.00

Why Samsung?
Cuz they're the ones who make the displays that go in those pretty little cases you so adore.

LCDs are more expensive than CRTs, but Apple is charging way too much when you look at the competition.

You're also right that they discontinued the 15" cuz of unpopular demand, but why was that so?

It didn't really stack up to the competition that's why.

A comparable (also Samsung) display would have cost about $100 less than the Apple 15"
And yes, that's with a DVI input.

There are two things that differ Apple's displays from others, one is that pretty case and the other is the ADC and neither justify the extra cost.

[Marvenp]

Originally posted by Mirage_


Nice, where did you the statistics on where apple is spending its R&D money? Oh thats right you've just got your *opinion* which is based on absolutely no data at all. So here is my opinion which is based on absolutely no data at all. There are separate teams working on OS X, and your 'iApps'. They don't rotate the OS and app guys on and off each month. The fact is, I'm sure both teams are working quite hard to optimize their respective products. Now, about not buying a PowerBook if it can't run OS 9. This is a dumb comment for several reasons. And here is why. Right now, we've got the babies and their OS 9 safety blanket. You're scared of UNIX and use some OS 10.0 beta speed b.s. in an effort to defend yourself. Productivity? How productive are you when your whole system crashes and you lose a bunch of work because of one program? Heres *my* hardware: Dual 1ghz G4 768mb DDR, Radeon 9000 Pro. On my machine, OS X owns OS 9 in every way. I haven't booted into OS 9 in well over a year. And I haven't missed it once. While you say OS 9 is a rock solid platform, I remember an OS that would lock up when any application crashed. This is not rock solid. Any one programmers bad code can bring your system to its knees. In OS X, this isn't a problem. Next, I truly believe Apples Developer Tools have brought many many new developers to the platform. Cocoa is simple to learn, and there are TONS of freeware / shareware apps out there from people who are just messing around to learn cocoa. In addition, a move to an ALL OS X platform forces developers who are clining to OS 9 to make the move to OS X. And makes it easier on developers who may have to keep up two copies of their source. I'd say the official death of OS 9 will be when the software stops getting posted for the platform on sites like macupdate and versiontracker.


I agree with this entire *opinion*. Although I'm pissed that my new Epson printer doesn't work in OS X (only drivers for classic right now and please don't anyone try to send me advice on this; this is the new printer just released in Japan so the rest of the world probably won't see it for several months), I still haven't booted up in OS 9 since the first release of 10.1.

OS X is better in so many ways, I can't believe than people still whine about the speed advantages of 9. If you have a recent machine, the speed difference is not that annoying. Perhaps OS 9 maybe be faster at stuff like dragging and re-sizing windows, but OS X never crashes (on my machines) and I can do multiple things at once like, Render in FCP, while printing postcards in Photoshop, Read my e-mail, while having a large file like Boris Red (Demo) downloading in the background and watch a DVD all without so much as a hiccup (And I do mean ALL at the same time).

And since I was one of the early adopters of OS X, I can tell from experience that Apple is doing one hell of a job with it's progress! Look how long Windows has been around and it's still a piece of crap. OS X is very new and through Classic, it's backwards compatible, solid as a rock, adds amazing features like Rendevous and Inkwell which you may not appreciate now but wait until they have been fully implemented, I can see you OS 9 fanatics eating your words. Switching to a Unix based OS is probably the best thing Apple has ever done!

Make no mistake, Jaguar rocks and it's only going to get better and better!

[MikeH]

Oh dear, what a lot of angry people today.

Unclench people and turn off the Slipknot, it's clearly not helping.

Besides, it's not as if you have to buy these things is it.

[irmongoose]

Anyone else notice that November 5 is the date for Macworld Spain? I was just looking at IDG's website and it says Nov. 5 - Macworld Spain..

How many Macworlds are there?? I have never heard of Macworld Spain before...




irmongoose

[premalvora]

For all those awaiting iBook revisions (including myself), i think Nov 5 is good news. The G3 in iBooks can easily hit 1GHz and probably will so in the next revision. But they can't go there until they upgrade the Powerbooks with a 1GHz processor too. Sure the G4 is more powerful, but from a marketing perspective, to have a higher clock speed on an iBook would kill PowerBook sales.
If these rumors are true, this gives a new iBook revision before the Christmas shopping season is over a good chance. Hey, at least we can hope.

P.S. This is my first post, so if I sound stupid, be gentle!

[Foocha]

OS 9 vs OS X has been discussed at length in this forum.

Like it or not, fact is that OS X is the way forward, and I believe that any OS 9 user who gives OS X a chance (on modern hardware) will learn to love it.

Whilst it's true that the GUI in OS 9 is a little more responsive, it's totally incorrect to say that OS 9 is better at multitasking than OS X. Anyone making this claim has clearly not used both systems.

[Shrek]

This is nice, but I am still patiently waiting for news of an iMac update. . . Sigh. :o

[ncbill]

I would love to have a G4 in my iBook, but odds are there won't be a G4 iBook until January 2004 at the earliest.

There is a noticable speed difference between 9 and X on iBook
(I assume it's a G3 thing) in system and applications.

And, X destroys battery life (more disk thrashing, only 640MB max RAM on the iBook) compared to 9.

You just can't wave your hands and say it doesn't matter.

Hopefully there will be much less of a difference should we get a faster iBook (but forget 1Ghz, 800-900 Mhz max, more likely the lower).

>any OS 9 user who gives OS X a chance (on modern hardware)

[Foocha]

What you call disk thrashing, I call modern memory management!

The days when OS 9 or Windows 98 were adequate operating systems are long gone. Whether you're a Mac or Windows user, the issue is the same - modern computing tasks require a modern OS. OS X and Windows XP are both great operating systems - they are both considerably more demanding on the hardware that runs them. The answer is to upgrade your OS and your hardware.

[designpro]

•••ALERT•••ALERT•••ALERT•••

•••Man, ***** Mac OS 9.x.x!! 9 is dead!! Get with the program and make the jump to X! People that still wanna run 9 just make no sense. ***THIS NEWSBRIEF JUST IN--> MAC OS 9 is an ANTIQUATED OS!*** It served the Mac Community well for many years so let it pass on ALREADY!!•••
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
this is the culprit...started all the angry messages.
i'm just gonna drop in my 2cents.
in my opinion, as a professional graphic designer, i thought it would be just fine to stay with OS 9. I understand that OS 9 doesnt have the best looking GUI but then again thats exactly what i need. I wouldnt want fancy stuff from X just so i have to worry about apps updating. i run Quark 4.11, Photoshop 6 and Ilustrator 9, so now can anyone give me a good reason why to update these to Quark 5, Photoshop 7 and Illustrator 10 so that i can have OS X in place? sure as hell that Quark 5 doesnt run on OS X or does it?
so all in all, stop the angry messages and lets just kick back and wait for your PB. Which OS to use comes in diff. territory, so dont be trashing OS 9 since it gave you so much over the years and dont do the same OS X since you know it's a pleasure to look at those beautiful icons.
and again, to a comment that someone complained about the discontinuation of 15"LCD since it'd be nice for him/her to use it as a pallete monitor, i say go **** yourself. i use a 13incher CRT and thats all you need. dont go outta your way to be a fool.

[LinuxGigolo]

Originally posted by topicolo
I don't understand why apple keeps trying to move their overall price range up... Why do they have to discontinue their 15" LCD? I think it's absurd to consider yourself a consumer oriented computer company when your cheapest LCD monitor is $999!

See.. the thing is, though, Apple's consumer machines (iBook, iMac, eMac).. none of them have ADC ports. So they can't (natively) use Apple's displays, anyway, and they all have their own displays built-in. So by upping its prices (by eliminating lower-priced products), all they're really doing is creating a bigger gap between what is consumer and what is professional (iBook vs. PowerBook, iMac vs. PowerMac,... and our little buddy eMac over there in the Education sector).

[Tiauguinho]

Originally posted by john123


This remark irked me enough to bring me out of months of hiding to respond.

You shouldn't come out of your hole at all...

[Foocha]

A little test to find out if OS 9 holds up your workflow.

Select any application you like - Photoshop for example. Get it started on a time consuming task - applying a filter to a large file for example. Now click on a menu - any menu - and hold your mouse down. Now wait until the application completes its task, without releasing the mouse button.

Photoshop will freeze until you release the mouse button - as will almost every other process running in OS 9.

OS features like preemptive multitasking and memory protection are not just for UNIX geeks - even graphic designers need them ;)

[The Grimace]

Right now, we've got the babies and their OS 9 safety blanket. You're scared of UNIX and use some OS 10.0 beta speed b.s. in an effort to defend yourself.


Well, there's a mature statement if ever I saw one. How's this for OS 9 as a safety blanket -
A couple of months back our family went on a short trip to 'da Big City' where I purchased a 128MB CF card for our digital camera. I forgot to init it, but rather went ahead and began snappin' away. Didn't figure there was a problem, 'cause the images could be viewed on the LCD screen on the camera itself. The problem arose when I tried to download the picts from the camera. Plug in the camera, turn it on, and... Uh oh, unrecognized disk format? No bueno. Hmm. Lets check it out via Disk Utility. Says its a FAT-16. So, I drop into Terminal and
sudo /sbin/mount_msdos /Volumes/Camera

...scared of UNIX...

my ass, you pretentious *******

Anyways, there it is! Click on it, the picts should reside 2 folders down. First folder opens fine, revealing the folder that contains the picts. Only, when I click on that folder, I get... drumroll please... the spinning cursor from Hell! Complete system lock-up! No way out, the only thing to do is force a re-boot. Tried it a few times, let the cursor spin overnight at one point, figured if it couldn't resolve itself after 8 hours then it wasn't gonna. So I take the camera over to our Win98 PC. Figured that since it was a FAT-16 'disk', it should download from there, and I could just copy the picts via the home network. Nope. The included, updated software couldn't even FIND the damn camera. By now I'm getting desparate, there are picts on this thing that I DO NOT want to lose. So in a final act of desparation I e-mail HP tech support. Their response? Try it from OS 9. What? Oh well, what have I got to lose? I hadn't booted into OS 9 in what seems like ages, but I went ahead with it. Guess what? The camera showed on the desktop just like it's supposed to, the picts were right there 2 levels down, and all I had to do was drag-n-drop them to where I wanted them. Took all of a couple of minutes. The hardest part was waiting for the picts to download via the USB interface. Something that crashed OS X 10.1.5 HARD OS 9 dealt with without blinking.

Here's another: WarCraft III. Unrecoverable crash when played under OS X. Even Blizzard acknowledges this problem. (http://www.blizzard.com/support/?id=mwr0669p) The solution? Why, OS 9 once again!

Funny, OS X doesn't seem to be better at everything, now, does it?

(tig)

[e-coli]

Originally posted by Marvenp
But then I opened my e-mail today to find this CNet article:
http://www.cnet.com/techtrends/0-6014-7-20573465.html
Can anyone say PB clone? So the PB's better be re-designed to kick some Windose a$$!

wow...that thing is really nice.

And in defense of OS X's speed, Jaguar isn't that much slower than windows XP. They're about the same.

[Foocha]

I think we all have some OS X war stories - there have been times when OS 9 has come to the rescue for me as well - although those time are less common these days.

It's interesting to note that Windows 98 couldn't handle your problem either... still there's no excuse for a system freeze.

OS 9 is a cruder thing than X, but this does make it more suited to certain tasks. I've noticed that Apple still uses OS 9 for firmware updates. OS 9 is ideally suited to this because the update app has more direct access to the hardware and can monopolise the processor. I'm intrigued to see what Apple will do when they finally scrap 9.

[e-coli]

Originally posted by Foocha
The days when OS 9 or Windows 98 were adequate operating systems are long gone. Whether you're a Mac or Windows user, the issue is the same - modern computing tasks require a modern OS. OS X and Windows XP are both great operating systems - they are both considerably more demanding on the hardware that runs them. The answer is to upgrade your OS and your hardware.

The only Windows machine I have is running windows 98. It runs great, it's thin and fast. Sure it crashes, but that's just windows. Windows 2000 is a train wreck.

And I can name you 10 major design firms still running 9. It's still a perfectly viable OS, and will be for a few years to come. I personally prefer X, but to each his own. The only real benefit to OS X is in video or 3D work, where there is a need for full multi-processor support. For print or wwweb work, OS 9 is just fine. (although I find the text rendering in OS X to be invaluable for typesetting).

Why do we need an OS that eats system resources? As for upgrading your OS and your hardware, that's playing right into what Apple wants you to do. They should show more support for legacy customers.

[iShater]

Originally posted by Marvenp

But then I opened my e-mail today to find this CNet article:
http://www.cnet.com/techtrends/0-6014-7-20573465.html
Can anyone say PB clone? So the PB's better be re-designed to kick some Windose a$$!


HOLY!!!!!!!!!!!


I guess I have to swing BB to check it out, even though I hate that place.

This is a switch campaign buster .. at least for people who are saving to buy a PB ... IF ... this machine delivers. We shall see.

[wsteineker]

Sooooo... Back to the topic at hand... :)

I wonder if the new 19" LCD will sport a case redesign. I personally like the pinstripes. I think they bring a visual continuity to the desktop by mirroring OS Xs menus. Still, I have heard a lot of complaints about the current look.

Also, any hard evidence (or even wiggly yet firm evidence) on the new PowerBook specs? I myself will be in teh market in a month or so and would LOVE to go mobile.

[The Grimace]

Sooooo... Back to the topic at hand...


Good point. I too am interested to see what developes as we may be in the market for a new Mac come January. I'm hoping this signals the advent of the FP iMac line being standardized with the 17", with perhaps a 15" at the low-end and a 19" at the high end. I checked out the 17" a couple o' days ago at a local retailer, and I must say that I was very impressed. I like the wide aspect. Don't know that it would work for a 19" version, but who knows.

(tig)

[Rower_CPU]

One more note on the LCD price/consumer focus issue.

All of Apple's "consumer" computers come with built in displays (iMac, eMac). Why complain that the LCDs are out of range for consumers when they aren't even _for_ the consumer machines?

PowerMacs and Apple's displays are for professional users who are willing to pay a premium for the hardware.

Priorities people; Apple's are not neccessarily yours. :rolleyes:

[BJNY]

I 'll take two Apple 19" LCD displays if:

1) wide aspect ratio
2) thin bezel as Titanium built-in display
3) VESA compliant to allow wall/arm mount
4) cost no more than $1199

[pgwalsh]

Originally posted by topicolo
I don't understand why apple keeps trying to move their overall price range up... Why do they have to discontinue their 15" LCD? I think it's absurd to consider yourself a consumer oriented computer company when your cheapest LCD monitor is $999! I understand what you mean, but these are geared toward the professional line, not the consumer line. The iMac/emac is the regular consumer product. Granted I'd like to see the prices drop too.

[Frobozz]

"19" LCD's can be found from other vendors now for about $800"

That's simply not true. There are no quality LCD's available for that price. I just bought an 18" top of the line SONY SDM-X82 for $830 and it's only 1280 x 1024. Apple's displays have several features that most third party vendors do not:

- High resolution: 1600 x 1024 is not available until you hit 19" on other vendors, and those are all over $1300 each.

- Good refresh, brightness, contrast. Most vendors do have good specs on these when you get to larger sized, but Apple always uses the top of the line screens.

- DVI/ADC. Not all LCD's are created equal. While it is true you can get an LCD cheaply, it's not something you want as your main monitor. Unless you have a digital connector your image quality will be lower.

- Industrial design. The Sony was one of about 3 displays that I would not be ashamed to put next to my Quicksilver DP 1 Ghz baby. Formac, Sony, Apple, and usually a random other party. The cheaper the LCD, the worse it's industrial design.

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by andrewh


If you want my review of the Gallery 2010 I'll give it to you. I just got mine today, and man, it is simply awesome. Stunning. So bright, and the colors are are so rich. Zero dead pixels. I was waiting for apple to release new displays and thought about two 17's or the 22" cinema but went for the Formac and I'm really happy with it. I'd love to compare this display side by side with an Apple to know for sure, but I think this one is actually better. Or, at least as good for a lot less money. It's 600:1 contrast and 250 nits brightness. Looks awesome in the middle of the Soundsticks. If you can wait until December or January for a new Apple display it might be worth it but you can't go wrong with the Gallery 2010.

I have the CD now with a dual gig. But will be putting them both on ebay once the 970 debuts. It would probably be easier to put the 2 up on ebay, even if not, I wanted to know if the Formac was an 'upgrade' because of the contrast ratio. The CD is sweet so I can imagine the clarity on the Formac at nearly double the ratio. So, if you can, maybe swing by an Apple store or CompUSA and compare the two?

Nice to hear it's nice, I have the soundsticks too, btw.

[formasfunction]

I find it interesting that this was posted by NatronB 10/21/02 at
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13200

"You will get your new Powerbook in two weeks.... let's say, November 5th.


Call it a hunch....."


Looks like it may be a good call.

[tjwett]

17, 19, & 23 is all good as long as they don't START at $1000. it's just silly to have your cheapest monitor priced at a grand. if the 17 becomes $599 i'll buy another one.

[porovaara]

Originally posted by Frobozz
[BApple's displays have several features that most third party vendors do not:
[/B]

And one other thing, very high pixel refresh times compared to other vendors high end screens. No, this is not a good thing. Apple really needs to work on hard on getting the 40-50ms refresh times on their screens down to match other leading 15-20ms times.

[Somebody]

I'll be pretty disappointed if the new PowerBooks won't run OS 9. I've been waiting for this update to buy one, and while I would have never considered switching to the Mac if OS X hadn't been in the works (I've been a unix geek for a good while), there are certainly some areas where it isn't yet up to snuff.

In my case, it's DVD playback -- I often find that the Apple DVD player under OS X crashes at certain points of certain discs, with "Error -36". Wiping the disc off doesn't usually help. But the vast majority of the time that this happens, I reboot to OS 9 and find that the DVD player there will play the disc flawlessly.

I agree that it's probably time for Apple to drop the prices on its LCDs a bit; That said, I don't for a minute regret the $1000 I spent on the 17" model a year and a half ago. It's the best monitor I've ever owned.

[ncbill]

Modern memory management?

Paging to disk is how many times slower than accessing real RAM?
(can this even be fixed without rewriting the kernel?)

BTW, I'll be glad to buy that G4 iBook to run OS X when they're available 15-18 months from now.

Slightly more on-topic, does anyone really believe new Powerbooks will be _shipping_ in 2 weeks?

Sure, I can see an announcement, for shipment in January!

Originally posted by Foocha
What you call disk thrashing, I call modern memory management!

The days when OS 9 or Windows 98 were adequate operating systems are long gone. Whether you're a Mac or Windows user, the issue is the same - modern computing tasks require a modern OS. OS X and Windows XP are both great operating systems - they are both considerably more demanding on the hardware that runs them. The answer is to upgrade your OS and your hardware.

[iShater]

Originally posted by pgwalsh
I understand what you mean, but these are geared toward the professional line, not the consumer line. The iMac/emac is the regular consumer product. Granted I'd like to see the prices drop too.

I am a consumer, I don't want a machine that has a BUILT-IN monitor, I like to have choices. So the only option I would have with a Mac is to go with a PowerMac. So for someone like me who would have to shell the extra $$ to go for the "pro" machines, not much is left to go spend on the Apple monitors. I know I have other choices, but it would have been nice if Apple kept the 15" for a cheaper price. That might mean they get a smaller profit margin than if I would have bought a 17", but I can't get one, so those extra $$ they would make off me are going somewhere else. :rolleyes:

[Fishy1500]

Argh, now Apple is releasing new screens??? I waited quite a while for a 19" lcd to come out on Oct 1 (after that promotion) but since it didn't, I bought a 22" cinema display (used of course, but perfect aesthetically & in working order) for $1500. I was really happy with the display (best thing i've ever used before) but now they are discontinuing it already? Sigh... Well, if Apple does really come out with a 19" on Nov 5, and if it really is widescreen, I think I might have to go get one of those too since I've been itching to buy a brand new apple display for so long :confused:

Should've waited another 3 weeks...
-Fishy1500

[robguz]

Originally posted by Frobozz
"19" LCD's can be found from other vendors now for about $800"

That's simply not true. There are no quality LCD's available for that price. I just bought an 18" top of the line SONY SDM-X82 for $830 and it's only 1280 x 1024. Apple's displays have several features that most third party vendors do not:

- High resolution: 1600 x 1024 is not available until you hit 19" on other vendors, and those are all over $1300 each.

- Good refresh, brightness, contrast. Most vendors do have good specs on these when you get to larger sized, but Apple always uses the top of the line screens.

- DVI/ADC. Not all LCD's are created equal. While it is true you can get an LCD cheaply, it's not something you want as your main monitor. Unless you have a digital connector your image quality will be lower.

- Industrial design. The Sony was one of about 3 displays that I would not be ashamed to put next to my Quicksilver DP 1 Ghz baby. Formac, Sony, Apple, and usually a random other party. The cheaper the LCD, the worse it's industrial design.

Hmm, LCD prices have come down dramatically from everyone except Apple. I almost bought a KDS Radius Rad-9 19" 1280x1024 for about $710 shipped. This is a highly rated monitor with better viewing angle and contrast ratio than Apple's current $1000 17" model. The thing is Apple keeps their monitors for a long time and rarely cust prices except for the high end cinema displays. So they need to make sure the 19" model is no more than $1000 and really ought to make them $800 since 6 months from now 19" LCD will be routinely under $700.

Apple already charges exhorbitant prices for macs, can't they at least make their monitors competetive. I'd love to have an Apple monitor, but just can't justify the cost over and above competitors. I can justify it for macs since nothing else runs OSX, but several hundred more for a nicer case and ADC (which severely limits it's resale value since no PC users can buy it) is just too much. Let's hope Apple gets it right and gives us great monitors at reasonable prices.

[soosy]

Originally posted by Somebody
I agree that it's probably time for Apple to drop the prices on its LCDs a bit; That said, I don't for a minute regret the $1000 I spent on the 17" model a year and a half ago. It's the best monitor I've ever owned.
That's the problem I see -- 17" is the same price now as it was a year and a half ago. (yeah, there are rebates if you buy it with a new mac....)

In that time, Apple's LCD has become overpriced and away from the cutting edge of technology.

I think they need to refresh their line-up or at least refresh their prices more often.

I'm glad they are FINALLY going to release a 19". I've been waiting long for it... although I just may end up buying a 17" instead due to price. :P


The other thing that bothers me is the ADC connection. I don't think it is worth having a non-standard port. You have to get video card makers to include it. Power comes from the computer (which generates more heat so we get wind-tunnel powermacs). You need funny adapters to hook up two monitors...
But really, it's just that it isn't what all the other monitors out there have. I like how Apple is embracing standards recently, wish they'd just use standard DVI on their monitors as well.

[elensil]

Are the new screens going to be Wide Scream?

Are they keeping an old 17" or releasing a new 17" found on iMacs. If its new, it should be cheaper then old 17" and its resolution of 1440 x 960 is quite good.

[Fezwick]

Originally posted by scem0
Right now, CRTs offer good enough quality and resolution to make LCDs not worth the money unless you really like pretty things :D. I am using an apple CRT 17 " studio display and I love it. No need for an LCD till they go down in price.


I'm with you dude. I got a 21 inch CRT Apple studio display and i love it. They can keep their LCD's!

[s_gundam]

if its 1600 x 1024, that would be the same as the 22" cinema display right now.. also meaning that it would be wide screen. (I have a 22" now). I'm guessing $1200 to $1500 on the 19", $2400 for 22" (the same as now?), and $3500 for 23" (also the same as now?). Apple is selling its brand name. you want cheap? go with someone else. When the heck has Apple ever be affordable? Its close sometimes.. but..

1600 x 1024 also means heak-a-small pixels.. should look like photo quality. That'll be nice.

willing to buy a 52" anyday,
-s_gundam

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by ncbill
Modern memory management?

Paging to disk is how many times slower than accessing real RAM?
(can this even be fixed without rewriting the kernel?)
So buy more RAM - it's cheap.

BTW, when OS 9 has to page out to virtual memory - it is much slower than OS X's implementation.

Oh - but OS 9 "allows" me to set how much RAM each program gets - that's nice. :rolleyes:

[e-coli]

Originally posted by Frobozz
Apple always uses the top of the line screens.

That's a load of crud. Apple's LCD screens are hardly stellar. They're relatively dim, and color reproduction isn't that great. The screen on my fiance's Dell laptop (3 years old) is better than any Apple branded display i've seen. It's 15", resolution of 1400 x 1050, extremely bright and color accurate.

A quick jaunt over to Formac should prove my point, as well.

[e-coli]

Originally posted by elensil
Are the new screens going to be Wide Scream?

Yes, the resolution indicates it will be wide screen.

[Mirage_]

Originally posted by MikeH
Oh dear, what a lot of angry people today.

Unclench people and turn off the Slipknot, it's clearly not helping.

Besides, it's not as if you have to buy these things is it.


I'm not an angry person, and I listen to bob marley, sublime, rolling stones, bob dylan, ac dc, damian marley, jimi hendrix, beatles, santana, ben harper, dave matthews, grateful dead, led zeppelin, long beach dub allstars, joe walsh, nirvana, pearl jam, tom petty, u2, doors, pearl jam..and probably a bunch of other stuff. Most of those don't tie in with the slipknot i hate people and my parents were so mean to me and thats why i'm abused and I'm standing her yelling into a microphone and you're buying my t shirt at a concert thing ;)

[Mirage_]

Originally posted by The Grimace


Well, there's a mature statement if ever I saw one. How's this for OS 9 as a safety blanket -
A couple of months back our family went on a short trip to 'da Big City' where I purchased a 128MB CF card for our digital camera. I forgot to init it, but rather went ahead and began snappin' away. Didn't figure there was a problem, 'cause the images could be viewed on the LCD screen on the camera itself. The problem arose when I tried to download the picts from the camera. Plug in the camera, turn it on, and... Uh oh, unrecognized disk format? No bueno. Hmm. Lets check it out via Disk Utility. Says its a FAT-16. So, I drop into Terminal and
sudo /sbin/mount_msdos /Volumes/Camera

my ass, you pretentious *******

Anyways, there it is! Click on it, the picts should reside 2 folders down. First folder opens fine, revealing the folder that contains the picts. Only, when I click on that folder, I get... drumroll please... the spinning cursor from Hell! Complete system lock-up! No way out, the only thing to do is force a re-boot. Tried it a few times, let the cursor spin overnight at one point, figured if it couldn't resolve itself after 8 hours then it wasn't gonna. So I take the camera over to our Win98 PC. Figured that since it was a FAT-16 'disk', it should download from there, and I could just copy the picts via the home network. Nope. The included, updated software couldn't even FIND the damn camera. By now I'm getting desparate, there are picts on this thing that I DO NOT want to lose. So in a final act of desparation I e-mail HP tech support. Their response? Try it from OS 9. What? Oh well, what have I got to lose? I hadn't booted into OS 9 in what seems like ages, but I went ahead with it. Guess what? The camera showed on the desktop just like it's supposed to, the picts were right there 2 levels down, and all I had to do was drag-n-drop them to where I wanted them. Took all of a couple of minutes. The hardest part was waiting for the picts to download via the USB interface. Something that crashed OS X 10.1.5 HARD OS 9 dealt with without blinking.

Here's another: WarCraft III. Unrecoverable crash when played under OS X. Even Blizzard acknowledges this problem. (http://www.blizzard.com/support/?id=mwr0669p) The solution? Why, OS 9 once again!

Funny, OS X doesn't seem to be better at everything, now, does it?

(tig)

I like how you rely on the instability of other vendors products (blizzard and HP) to trash OS X. Maybe you just have a p.o.s. HP camera, and blizzard has a bug in *their* OS X build. Also, my comments were obviously not aimed at you, since your post suggests that you usually boot into X (albeit 10.1.5).

[Mirage_]

Originally posted by ncbill
I would love to have a G4 in my iBook, but odds are there won't be a G4 iBook until January 2004 at the earliest.

There is a noticable speed difference between 9 and X on iBook
(I assume it's a G3 thing) in system and applications.

And, X destroys battery life (more disk thrashing, only 640MB max RAM on the iBook) compared to 9.

You just can't wave your hands and say it doesn't matter.

Hopefully there will be much less of a difference should we get a faster iBook (but forget 1Ghz, 800-900 Mhz max, more likely the lower).

>any OS 9 user who gives OS X a chance (on modern hardware) yeah my pismo's battery life is shorter on os x, I wonder how it fares on a TiBook... Anyone know? Mines really bad... like an hour or so down from five.

[eyeONdoor]

I've been debating the purchase of an apple display for a few months now and its killing me. I have a B&W G3 350 upgraded to G4 500 but i'd have to spend $250 for a new video card and adapter to use on of the ADC displays. i've done a lot of research for wide screen displays and found only sony comes with similar specs (in wide screen displays) and price.

Sony SDM-P232
Screen Size 23-inch
Aspect Ratio 16x10
View Angle 170

Display Colors 16.7 mil
Luminance 200 cd/m
Response Time 40 ms
Contrast Ratio 350 to 1
Input DVI-D x 2 and HD15 x 2

Price $2,500 (not list price- searched yahoo)

let me know if i've left any features out.

anyway, i have a few questions.
1) is 40ms quick enough for games?
2) what is the life span of an LCD display?
3) does anyone have this sony display or seen it to compare to an apple display. it looks like a great screen but i've only seen it at a crappy resolution so i couldn't tell.

any and all info would be much appreciated..:-)

[The Grimace]

I like how you rely on the instability of other vendors products (blizzard and HP) to trash OS X. Maybe you just have a p.o.s. HP camera, and blizzard has a bug in *their* OS X build. Also, my comments were obviously not aimed at you, since your post suggests that you usually boot into X (albeit 10.1.5).


No, my camera is not a p.o.s. It ain't the latest-n-greatest, but seeing as how I'm a student who also works full time, my wife is a student, and we have two kids, we're not exactly in a position to buy new gear every couple o' months.

How is OS X's failure to 'Force Quit' WarCraft III Blizzards fault? Here I thought under OS X every app ran in a protected memory space, which couldn't touch the OSs' or any other apps space. Golly gee. If this is true, then how is WarCraft III able to bring the ENTIRE OS to a complete and utter standstill? FYI, none of the suggested remedies on Blizzards site worked.

And why shouldn't I expect OS X to handle a task at least as well as OS 9? Isn't this part of the reason for the 'Big Move'?

Oh yeah, Jaguar was available for about a week before we went on our trip. Sorry that I didn't rush right out and get it, but we had groceries to buy and bills to pay. Guess I need to get my priorities straight. Running it now on our iMac now; however, it refuses to install on our Wallstreet. Won't even boot from the disk. Oh yeah, real nice job, Apple. Way to support your hard-core user base. How hard-core? Got an Apple IIe that still runs. Got the BBS software I used to run on it as well. Once-upon-a-time owned an Apple 5 1/4" floppy drive with serial number "76". Got a couple o' older Macs as well, but I'd hope you get the point.

Funny how you look to blame EVERYTHING and EVERYONE except Apple and OS X. As if they're exempt from making mistakes. Yeah, right...

(tig)

[PROZAKY]

If these babies come out, will the $400 rebate still apply?
It's not ending unitl Dec. 31.

[reyesmac]

Hey eyeONdoor, I am buying a 500mhz G4 for my bw g3 350 soon. Is there anything you would say about the upgrade or can you tell me if it was worth it? Thanks.

[finchna]

Originally posted by e-coli


The only Windows machine I have is running windows 98. It runs great, it's thin and fast. Sure it crashes, but that's just windows. Windows 2000 is a train wreck.



I've run Win 3.1 all the way to XP and am running 3 machine with Win2k, 1XP, and 4 Macs (desktops and laptops) from 9.1 to 10.2.1. I could not imagine running win98 when 2k is available. 2k crashes once in a blue moon... XP, while stable, needs more hardware. If 2k was crashing on you regularly (the same way 98 does) there might be something wrong with the installation or the hardware.

Anyway, back to the thread...any specs on these PB and are they PB or ibooks? Really want a 1G G4 PB!

Nathan

[mr evil brkfast]

Perhaps the displays will get an update on november 5th, they are at least due for a price drop with the 15" gone.

I still maintain that we'll see no new hardware until January and not necessarily at the Macworld show.

[UnixMac]

1) Unix and OS X is the single best thing to happen to Apple since the Mac in 1984.

2) Apple better release a great looking (unchanged would be nice) kick ass PB soon or I'm gonna get really mad!

Nov 5th would be ok, if they can ship them out with in a couple of weeks!

[shadowfax]

Progonally posted by scem0
Right now, CRTs offer good enough quality and resolution to make LCDs not worth the money unless you really like pretty things . I am using an apple CRT 17 " studio display and I love it. No need for an LCD till they go down in price.

right on dude. i have a 17 inch trinitron (16 inch viewable) that i sit close enough to to read at 1280 x 1024. i can't stand the 1024 x 768. the colors are rich, and the refresh rate is really nice. and it was only 300$. i can't imagine spending $1000 on a 17 inch display (maybe because i don't have that kind of money though. granted, though, LCDs are cooler (as in, more stylish AND they generate less heat) and smaller... but i don't need that. even the best LCDs fall short of FD CRTs from an image quality standpoint.

i'm relictant to get on this thread. this is undoubtedly the most vicious set of posts i have ever seen together. what's the deal? so many people just make all these assumptions about the deific infallibity of their arguments, and then go off and call other people "F***s" and "asses" and such. what is the deal?

better be careful or edvniow's rabid rabbit might get you.

[The Grimace]

so many people just make all these assumptions about the deific infallibity of their arguments, and then go off and call other people "F***s" and "asses" and such. what is the deal?


Point taken. I apologize for the part I have played.

(tig)

[Choppaface]

what's the deal? so many people just make all these assumptions about the deific infallibity of their arguments, and then go off and call other people "F***s" and "asses" and such. what is the deal?


indeed!


Originally posted by RBMaraman


I wouldn't put it past Apple to release a new PowerBook on the 5th, and not ship it until after January 1st. That way they wouldn't have to fool with OS 9, and they would have Jaguar pre-loaded. Like Steve said, OS 9 is dead, and it would be smart for Apple to start eliminating it in each new product release for this point on. One OS is going to help switchers figure out what they are doing much easier.

true, but I need my blanky!!! :(

[Bregalad]

As the user of several LCD displays I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

The biggest problem I see with ADC is the difficulty in sharing the display between two computers. Two ADC equipped Macs need a $400 switch box. A Mac and a PC requires an additional $200 DVI to ADC converter. For $600 you can get a good 17" analog LCD. The picture quality might not be as good as the ADC display and you'll need to find room for it on your desk, but you're gaining another display that can be used independently or as a second display on the Mac. Analog KVM switches are also quite inexpensive compared to digital ones. The other problems with Apple displays are: you can't adjust their height, there is limited control of the viewing angle, you can't mount them on the wall and they aren't compatible with monitor arms. Maybe the next generation of Apple display will have an arm like the iMac.

I believe Apple killed the 15" LCD because they were having trouble selling it. People willing to pay for LCD don't want to be stuck with 1024x768 and people wanting inexpensive can get a 17" or 19" CRT for less.

I hope they take the 17" display from the iMac and offer it to PowerMac users. Based on the pricing of the iMac such a display at around $799 would give Apple a nice profit while being inexpensive enough to attract a high sales volume. Knowing Apple it'll be $999 or more :(

The next model up the ladder should be an Apple branded clone of the Formac 2010. Same features, same price $1699, different look. Widescreen is nice, but I'll accept black bars when playing DVDs in order to gain another 176 vertical pixels for everything else.

Alternatively a 19" 1600x1024 would be fine too, but it would face tough competition from the 1600x1200 Formac model because I can't see Apple charging less than $1699.

The 23" Cinema HD would complete the line at roughly $2500.

The best display I own is the 12" 1024x768 display in my iBook. The picture quality eclipses the SGI 1600SW and the analog Samsung LCDs that I use. Ironically, it's the only one with a stuck pixel.

I like the silver and black look of my Samsung 172B. It looks good with a pair of black Monsoon flat panel speakers beside it. I don't care that it clashes with my PowerMac because the Mac is on the floor where it belongs. I'll never understand people who put a tower case on their desk: less desk space, more noise, sure I want that :rolleyes:

My 17" Samsung does have some small quality issues. The backlighting brightness is a little uneven and the rows of pixels in the lower right corner have a tiny bit of space between them. It makes everything in that corner look striped. The brightness, contrast and colour though is better than the older 15" Samsung. In fact, the 172B is so bright that I've got it turned down to almost nothing so I can use it in a moderately lit room at home without burning out my eyes.

Both Samsung displays have fast enough pixel response for video and they have great viewing angles with limited colour change. The SGI has excellent colour control, but moving your head a little bit changes everything. I can imagine that it's very difficult to achieve even backlighting and colour across a display the size of the Cinema.

I look at LCDs when I'm in places like Costco that have inexpensive ones on display and I'm always happy with what I use. Walking into an Apple dealer makes me want a large digital LCD, but I only have to glance at the price tag to remind myself why I've got analog at home.

New PowerBooks?? I don't think we'll see any before January, but I'm always ready for Steve to surprise me.

[SPG]

Originally posted by Marvenp

But then I opened my e-mail today to find this CNet article:
http://www.cnet.com/techtrends/0-6014-7-20573465.html
Can anyone say PB clone? So the PB's better be re-designed to kick some Windose a$$!

Once again a PC clone falls way short of Apple's design elegance.
Two tone? What is this, 1985?
Squared edges, harsh lines, ugggh.

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by Mirage_


I like how you rely on the instability of other vendors products (blizzard and HP) to trash OS X. Maybe you just have a p.o.s. HP camera, and blizzard has a bug in *their* OS X build. Also, my comments were obviously not aimed at you, since your post suggests that you usually boot into X (albeit 10.1.5).
Just curious - do you have a 2nd computer that you can hook up to your OS X box via a ethernet? If so, and if you can get WC to freeze up on you again, (and if you're a geek like me ;-) ) try ssh'ing (or telneting if you turn it on) into the Mac from that other PC. It could be that finder or quartz has crapped out on you because of some bizarre bug and you might be able to kill it and restart it without rebooting the computer.

Or, have the other PC logged into the Mac and running "top" - watch the CPU utilization when WC freezes and see if WC isn't just hogging the hole cpu. (If the thing actually crashes, your telnet/ssh session should go dead)

BTW, please don't think I'm saying OS X should NOT handle WC bringing it to it's knees. No app' running under a regular user should be able to do what you are saying (that functionality should be reserved for root users! ;-) ) Apple should look into the problem as well as Blizzard. I'm just curious to see if OS X is technically crashing or if it's just become unrespsonsive. (There is a difference - although to most users it's irrelevant)

I love OS X - switched to Apple back in the early "Rhapsody" days because I was a NeXT fan. But I have had it crash on me and could probably duplicate it if I needed to. Try running it on a B&W with a G4 ZIF and a Pioneer DVR-103 DVD-R drive, running 10.2.1. Now start up Final Cut Pro 3.0.2 and have Toast 5 burning a DVD-RW in the background. The whole thing will (sometimes) freeze with a big, somewhat transparent window over almost the whole screen saying that I must restart. (Must be 10.2's gussied up version of a kernel panic)

Oh, did I mention I have a 2nd video card - an ancient Matrox Millenium 2!

To be fair, I run about as non-supported a system as you can get, and it could be any one of a dozen drivers (Matrox, Sonnet ATA100 card, etc...) that is actually the culpret - but OS X, like ALL OS's can be crashed.

[john123]

Originally posted by Mirage_


Nice, where did you the statistics on where apple is spending its R&D money? Oh thats right you've just got your *opinion* which is based on absolutely no data at all. So here is my opinion which is based on absolutely no data at all. There are separate teams working on OS X, and your 'iApps'. They don't rotate the OS and app guys on and off each month. The fact is, I'm sure both teams are working quite hard to optimize their respective products. Now, about not buying a PowerBook if it can't run OS 9. This is a dumb comment for several reasons. And here is why. Right now, we've got the babies and their OS 9 safety blanket. You're scared of UNIX and use some OS 10.0 beta speed b.s. in an effort to defend yourself. Productivity? How productive are you when your whole system crashes and you lose a bunch of work because of one program? Heres *my* hardware: Dual 1ghz G4 768mb DDR, Radeon 9000 Pro. On my machine, OS X owns OS 9 in every way. I haven't booted into OS 9 in well over a year. And I haven't missed it once. While you say OS 9 is a rock solid platform, I remember an OS that would lock up when any application crashed. This is not rock solid. Any one programmers bad code can bring your system to its knees. In OS X, this isn't a problem. Next, I truly believe Apples Developer Tools have brought many many new developers to the platform. Cocoa is simple to learn, and there are TONS of freeware / shareware apps out there from people who are just messing around to learn cocoa. In addition, a move to an ALL OS X platform forces developers who are clining to OS 9 to make the move to OS X. And makes it easier on developers who may have to keep up two copies of their source. I'd say the official death of OS 9 will be when the software stops getting posted for the platform on sites like macupdate and versiontracker.

Hey newbie -- while you were putzing around over a year ago, I was engaging people on this forum, so don't start getting uppity with me.

First of all, your comment on R&D, while sardonic in tone, didn't have any bearing on what I said. I simply said, and I quote: "It's time for Apple to step it up and devote some of that R&D money currently designated for iApps to OS optimization." Nowhere in that comment did I quantify the proportion of R&D spent on the iApps, nor did I even make a comparison between the R&D investment on the iApps relative to OS optimization. Next time, before you try to flame, it might help you to actually R-E-A-D a person's post first.

On to the substance: I'm not using a beta of OS X. I've used the Public Beta, 10.0, 10.1, and 10.2. I even tried using 10.2 exclusively for a few weeks. And, in the end, I found myself back in OS 9. Keep in mind that I'm a user who has used everything from System 6 (yes, 6) up to the present.

As for productivity, my machines never really crashed that much. I also learned a nice little technique that's helpful on any OS. It's called saving your work. Try it some time.

In the end, while I dislike OS X's GUI (it looks too much like Windows XP for my tastes...I use Windows 2000 at work because I find it more functional), I could put up with it if it weren't so much slower. But it *is* slower, and I have found that to be particularly the case where multitasking is concerned. Rendering images in Photoshop, blending them into LiveMotion, having the Microsoft apps running in the backround...I found working between several apps to be unbearably slow in OS X. I found, by contrast, that switching between them was much faster (as was my work within them) in OS 9.

If ya'll want to defend OS X, that's fine. If you want to use it, even better...if that's the future, then the sooner you get acclamated to it, the better. But there are those of us who won't accept it in its present form. Given Apple's promise to make Macs in 2003 and beyond OS X-only bootable, that means that users such as myself will *not* buy new hardware. Some might even switch to the dark side; I admit to considering this myself.

Some of you are going to say "good riddance." That would be myopic. The success of any company depends on its market, and in the case of the computer industry, that turns into market SHARE. If a company alienates a substantial portion of its hardcore user base, its net profits decline, the willingness of software makers to produce new and affordable software declines, and so on. Therefore, to encourage OS 9 users to switch is in Apple's best interests. This is a fact that is not lost on Apple, of course...the development of iTunes is ostensibly intended to "switch" (hence the advertisement genre name) PC users to the Mac platform, but it is also intended to guide OS 9 users to OS X as well. While these applications clearly appeal to many OS 9 users, there are those like me who demand that speed come along with it. Apple clearly heard these cries, resulting in dramatic speed improvements in OS X 10.2 -- but it's still not on par with OS 9.

Obviously, no company can ever transition its entire user base from one platform to another. But I'd wager that there are still a substantial number of us unwilling to make the jump for the reasons I've stated. At the very least, it is the prevailing sentiment among my friends and family -- one of whom I introduced to the Mac platform, selling it to him on the basis of OS X only to have him, like me, eventually realize the fruits of using OS 9. There's a lesson in there....

[Stelliform]

What happened to the 667Mhz refurbs at smalldog.com? They had 14 this morning, and tonight they don't even have them listed. I guess someone could have bought them all, or is this a November 5th plot? Da da da dummmmmm.

[rice_web]

I don't really care about new displays. The ONE thing that I want from Apple's iMac, eMac, and iBook, is the ability to span the display across two monitors. Give users an ADC connector on the back of the FP iMac, and watch Apple LCD sales shoot upward.

I don't need the "power" of the PowerMac, I just need screen real estate, hopefully through monitor spanning.

[Arcady]

Originally posted by Stelliform
What happened to the 667Mhz refurbs at smalldog.com? They had 14 this morning, and tonight they don't even have them listed. I guess someone could have bought them all, or is this a November 5th plot? Da da da dummmmmm.

I was wondering the same thing. I had been eyeing those 667 refurbs, and as soon as I found out about this Nov 5th announcement, I headed over to Smalldog to see if there were any price changes. Maybe this means that the 800's will drop to under $2500 soon... :)

[shadowfax]

very nice rebuttal, john123. i like how you didn't respond with insults in return. i like your vocabulary too, lol.:)

because my only experience with OS 9 is on an imac G3 at some ungodly slow speed for the time that i used it and my only experience with X is all in stores on new apple stuff, i disagree with you. also, i was converted to Mac by os X and powerbook (still on my PC till new powerbooks come). it's certainly true that antialiasing and shading knock your system speed way way down if you don't have a darn good video card (with a GPU). i think it's really unfortunate that you can't turn such features off, because, of course, someone with a pre-GPU era vid card is just in trouble for performance. i mean, i have a friend with a PC laptop and no GPU... turning antialiasing on winamp made his CPU idle at 30%. that can't be good. it's bound to be similar on OS X. but your GPU doesn't have anything better to do, and programs like photoshop, i seem to find, don't really use it much. they send their ops to the CPU, which would be offloaded on a newer system by the GPUs, and thus not as disadvantaged by OS X. i dunno though. i am willing to pay for a little eye candy personally... i've become very aesthetically inclined of late, and that's why i HATE XP. that's one issue i have with your statement: you find OS X similar to the default XP skin. i think there is a world of difference. XP is like a cheap garage band imitation... it has less features, higher pixelation at normal resolutions, and the color matching... please. it's really tasteless IMO. i think OS X is much more professionally done and in much better taste... but if you dislike the look, and people do, that's certainly problematic. i'm personally a big fan of the idea of themes on OSes (i have an OS X look on my XP). OK, nuff of that tangent.
it's a hard decision for apple to make, you are right. backing off of OS 9 will hurt them. but continuing to support it is a troublesome duality and, i think, slows down the rate at which OS X can "ubiquitize" itself. supporting both has its advantages, as does trying to force a switch. they may end up like M$ did not too long ago. M$ backed out on support for windows 98 and under ("windows update" for them) and took so much fire for it they had to resume support not too long after then had discontinued it. who knows if this will happen to apple?

[beatle888]

Originally posted by Shadowfax



i'm relictant to get on this thread. this is undoubtedly the most vicious set of posts i have ever seen together. what's the deal? so many people just make all these assumptions about the deific infallibity of their arguments, and then go off and call other people "F***s" and "asses" and such. what is the deal?

better be careful or edvniow's rabid rabbit might get you. [/B]



fear the rabbit ;) i agree with you.

[Foocha]

Hi John123, thanks for providing some qualification to your arguement.

I struggle to understand the problems you're encountering in OS X - I've been using it as my primary OS at work for over a year now, and have encountered none of the problems you describe. I use Photoshop 7, Illustrator 10, GoLive 6, LiveMotion 2 and Office v.X and have experience no problems with them whatsoever. By contrast, I've found it speeds my work up.

The glitches that I am aware of are more related to networking - AFP on OS X is not as stable as on OS 9, driver support / stability, and on occasion the OS becoming unresponsive, although these occasions are few and far between when compared to OS 9.

If you decide to desert the Mac platform for Windows, that will be a sad loss, but perhaps you will find Windows 2000 better - it's a great OS - but in my view, Photoshop and Mac go together like bread and butter, and I know which side my bread is buttered ;)

I hope you give 10.2 more of a chance before you make your decisions.

BTW, I have been using the Mac since System 6 as well, and I remember all the horrors of Font DA Mover.

[Foocha]

If you don't like Windows XP's "Luna" theme (personally I like it, although it's clearly an Aqua rip-off) you can turn it off and revert to the classic Windows 2000 appearance. This is not a big issue!

Back on topic - I've been off topic on all my posts in this thread so far, sorry - I hope that the new PowerBooks are:

1Ghz G4
Bluetooth built-in
Higher resolution screen
SuperDrive

plus - the little rubber bits on the corners don't come off so easily!

[Mirage_]

Originally posted by john123


Hey newbie -- while you were putzing around over a year ago, I was engaging people on this forum, so don't start getting uppity with me.

First of all, your comment on R&D, while sardonic in tone, didn't have any bearing on what I said. I simply said, and I quote: "It's time for Apple to step it up and devote some of that R&D money currently designated for iApps to OS optimization." Nowhere in that comment did I quantify the proportion of R&D spent on the iApps, nor did I even make a comparison between the R&D investment on the iApps relative to OS optimization. Next time, before you try to flame, it might help you to actually R-E-A-D a person's post first.

Ok, rofl, as if the number of posts i've put up on mac rumors has any significance at all. Second, and *I* quote:
"It's time for Apple to step it up and devote some of that R&D money currently designated for iApps to OS optimization." You're stating a comparison of the two subjects right there. It groups the two entities into the same group, and implies that resources can be/are shifted between the two freely. I've already stated that there are a minimum of two teams, one working on the OS, and one working on iApps. You could further break this down, into teams for each iApp, and teams for specific parts of the OS. But thats not the point. The point is that the two have nothing to do with each other, and saying that they should take resources away from iApps and put it towards OS development is a pointless statement. What they can do is hire more talent to work on the OS. When I hit up apple.com/jobs and do a search on Software Engineering, I see a list of about 20+ jobs related to the OS itself, and about 2 or 3 related to iApps. Seems like Apple is investing resources in OS development to me, what data were you basing your breakdown of iApp vs OS X. I've seen great improvement since the beta of OS X. And please, OS X looks to much like XP? You've got it backwards, screenshots of XP's interface started getting leaked a few weeks after the OS X beta was released. Don't try and qualify yourself by your meaningless macrumors rating. It means nothing. Please continue to defend your opinions which are based on nothing. At least this 'n00b' has some sort of physical data to back up his post. (heres a hint, if you don't want to compare iApps and os x optimization, then remove one of them and just say, "I think apple needs to continue to work on optimizing OS X")

[Mirage_]

Originally posted by The Grimace

How is OS X's failure to 'Force Quit' WarCraft III Blizzards fault? Here I thought under OS X every app ran in a protected memory space, which couldn't touch the OSs' or any other apps space. Golly gee. If this is true, then how is WarCraft III able to bring the ENTIRE OS to a complete and utter standstill? FYI, none of the suggested remedies on Blizzards site worked.


Just because the memory space is protected doesn't mean the application can't access a level of the system that isn't protected. I haven't had any problems with warcraft3. I read the site you posted. http://www.blizzard.com/support/?id=mwr0669p

No where does it say that the *bug* is OS X's fault. It simply tells you to quit all your applications before running wc3 (free up resources). It also says to quit those mouse programs, which probably iterfere with wc3 capturing the location of the mouse on the screen. It says to update card drivers. They probably directly access the video card or something for their graphics, I don't know anything about how blizzards game engine works, but if they have a bug and are accessing low level parts of the system, I wouldn't be surprised if it could cause a crash. Step 4 points out that on some systems there's a carbon library *for developers* http://www.radgametools.com yes you see credits to rad gametools on wc3 and starcraft etc, because blizzard uses their product for audio. then they tell you to reinstall the game. *Obviously* the *bug* is not OS X's fault. Blizzard just needs to figure out what is causing it and release a fix. Please stop bitching and saying that its OS X's fault. I challenge you to find real evidence/data that contradicts what I have just said. Please.

[Mirage_]

Originally posted by Foocha
Hi John123, thanks for providing some qualification to your arguement.

was that a joke? lol.

[arn]

let's try to keep to the topic... and keep it civil...

arn

[guiglio]

Originally posted by Foocha
A little test to find out if OS 9 holds up your workflow.

Select any application you like - Photoshop for example. Get it started on a time consuming task - applying a filter to a large file for example. Now click on a menu - any menu - and hold your mouse down. Now wait until the application completes its task, without releasing the mouse button.

Photoshop will freeze until you release the mouse button - as will almost every other process running in OS 9.

OS features like preemptive multitasking and memory protection are not just for UNIX geeks - even graphic designers need them ;)


Gimme a freakin break - you rationalize the speed and productivity of OS X because you can hold the mouse button down and make Pshop stutter n freeze?

I spend all my time shooting/editing video with applied Photoshop layers and After Effects processing - there is no way that X is faster. It's about raw speed for some of us. Not to mention the ridiculous delays in opening windows... though the wait wouldn't be so bad on a 19" LCD priced at $800 or LESS. ;)

[DHagan4755]

Something's coming...

http://homepage.mac.com/davehagan/pbg4stock.jpg

CompUSA is displaying lots of Out-of-Stock or Limited Quanities on either the 667 or 800.

[The Grimace]

No where does it say that the *bug* is OS X's fault.


And where did I say that the bug in WCIII was Apple's fault? All I did was give examples of OS Xs inability to handle tasks that OS 9 could. Which you still have been unable to logically refute. All you have offered is insult and insinuation (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?insinuation).

If there is a bug in Blizzards game engine that is wreaking havoc with OS X, then it is Blizzards problem. If OS X is unable to handle said bug in the manner implied by Apple (http://www.apple.com/macosx/technologies/darwin.html) (read the paragraph on 'Stability and Power'), then this Apples problem.

And why exactly should I not expect OS X to be able to handle my "p.o.s. HP camera" as elegantly as OS 9?

Arn - point taken, this is the last you'll hear from me on this matter.

(tig)
Hopin' fer a standardized 17" FP iMac line...

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by guiglio



Gimme a freakin break - you rationalize the speed and productivity of OS X because you can hold the mouse button down and make Pshop stutter n freeze?

I spend all my time shooting/editing video with applied Photoshop layers and After Effects processing - there is no way that X is faster. It's about raw speed for some of us. Not to mention the ridiculous delays in opening windows... though the wait wouldn't be so bad on a 19" LCD priced at $800 or LESS. ;)
What about the fact that you can capture DV via firewire in FCP 3 on OS X in the background while suffing, using MS Office, etc.? (I can't 'cuz my system is too old/slow, but I've seen it done on DP 800 Quicksilvers) I doubt OS 9 would handle that.

One of the "nice" things about OS 9's cooperative multitasking is that FCP, Photoshop and games that NEED the cpu can hog it all they want. It makes the OS feel faster because the front-most app' is snappy, but time a big FCP render in the background while surfing the web and then time it in the foreground - It should be faster on OS 9 when in the foreground, but faster on OS X when in the background. (Unless FCP "renices" itself to a higher/lower priority based on when it's GUI has the focus or not)

(Sorry for staying off topic Arn. - that's my last post on this here. I promise! :) )

[eric_n_dfw]

Moving right allong...

Does anyone here now of any other companies selling LCD monitors that use the Fujitsu MVA LCDs? (or something comperable to them)

I'd love to see a proce comparison.

[The Grimace]

Just curious - do you have a 2nd computer that you can hook up to your OS X box via a ethernet? If so, and if you can get WC to freeze up on you again, (and if you're a geek like me ;-) ) try ssh'ing (or telneting if you turn it on) into the Mac from that other PC. It could be that finder or quartz has crapped out on you because of some bizarre bug and you might be able to kill it and restart it without rebooting the computer.

Or, have the other PC logged into the Mac and running "top" - watch the CPU utilization when WC freezes and see if WC isn't just hogging the hole cpu. (If the thing actually crashes, your telnet/ssh session should go dead)


I'm gonna assume (and hope I don't make an....) that this was directed at me, not at _Mirage.

Yeah, I do, in fact. Got a Wallstreet running 10.1.5. And I'm just enough of a wannabe-geek to try this. Thanks for the tip.

<edit>
Ok This is the last I have to say off-topic. Really. I promise.
</edit>

(tig)

[technocoy]

Arn,
could you please make these guys either start a whiner/argument thread, or ban them?? I love this site and when i enter a thread about PB's and LCD's i would love to engage in conversation about that topic! I saw 100 and some posts and thought there was going to be new info.... and instead i wind up reading two big-headed wind-bags pumping up their egos....

Thanks,
technocoy

and on that note,
i would love to see
1 ghz
new video card
and bluetooth
the superdrive would be nice, but i've been waiting for an eternity and just want a new speedy powerbook at this point!!!:( :D

[eric_n_dfw]

...like the Snickers ad say?

Check out this, 57 page forum on ArsTechnica on LCD's:

http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?q=Y&a=tpc&s=50009562&f=67909965&m=4190936913&p=1

edit: I just looked at the date - it's started a year ago.

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by The Grimace


And where did I say that the bug in WCIII was Apple's fault? All I did was give examples of OS Xs inability to handle tasks that OS 9 could. Which you still have been unable to logically refute. All you have offered is insult and insinuation (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?insinuation).


And why exactly should I not expect OS X to be able to handle my "p.o.s. HP camera" as elegantly as OS 9?


In theory this is what Rondevous might help to resolve, but what you need is a fairly complicated database and driver file on the host computer.

Alot of old equipment out there but programs like Powerprint and Dataviz show it is possible.

If only we could INTEGRATE all the legacy drivers and programs in an ENVIRONMENT that effectively emulates OS4,5,6,7,8,9, Win(all), etc.

Rocketmen

[andrewh]

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
Moving right allong...

Does anyone here now of any other companies selling LCD monitors that use the Fujitsu MVA LCDs? (or something comperable to them)

I'd love to see a proce comparison.

I think Planar also uses Fujitsu MVA screens. There are some here:

http://www.monitorsdirect.com

[The Grimace]

So some of y'all have mentioned the ability to span. Well, check out this thread (http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=001631) on AppleInsider, this post (http://www.rutemoeller.com/mp/ibook/ibook_e.html) which started it all, and here's the Ars forum thread (http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?a=tpc&s=50009562&f=8300945231&m=9850939635) that discusses it. Pay close heed to the warnings!

Although that 17" FP iMac is looking more and more tempting...

(tig)

[daRAT]

I just went to my favorite Mac store and talked to the Sales/Tech guy, I was filling him in on this 19" moniter and TB upgrade. He asked about any iBook rumors, but all I had was the "old" ones from here.

Anyways, he said he called his supplier, and they said they could get an iBook for him, but they wouldn't recommend stocking the shelves with iBooks.

I know, thin, BUT it would make sense with a New TB coming out, to bump up the iBook before xmas.

Well thats all, like I said thin but interesting.

On Topic, a 19" moniter would be perfect for my Cube, I can't wait :cool:

[ZoodTube]

Originally posted by reyesmac
Hey eyeONdoor, I am buying a 500mhz G4 for my bw g3 350 soon. Is there anything you would say about the upgrade or can you tell me if it was worth it? Thanks.

Hey --- I bought the PowerLogix G4 upgrade (550 MHz) for my Blue and White and I would recommend it. There is a definite speed boost under OS X. Check out Accelerate Your Mac (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/) for more G4 ugrade opinions.

[eyeONdoor]

i had gotten an xlr8 G4 500 upgrade before they went out of business and overall its worked out fine. the only problem i've had is importing video in imovie where the entire machine freezes up. i'm running jaguar and i have to reboot when this happens, though apple doesn't support these upgrades for OSX so there ya' go...

it'll keep me going until the new G4/G5/970 comes out/if it comes out...or any damn pro mac comes out in the next few months damn it!!!..lol

[Pelorus]

Originally posted by Mirage_
yeah my pismo's battery life is shorter on os x, I wonder how it fares on a TiBook... Anyone know? Mines really bad... like an hour or so down from five.

Had the same problem. turned out my PSU was dodgy and killed the battery. Course...it was covered under appleCare. Since getting a replacement my battery life is back where it should be...

5 hours on a Pismo? Yeah right. Even at the lowest settings 3 hrs is damn good unless you're counting leaving it asleep...

[vixapphire]

Originally posted by Mirage_

But thats not the point. The point is that the two have nothing to do with each other, and saying that they should take resources away from iApps and put it towards OS development is a pointless statement. When I hit up apple.com/jobs and do a search on Software Engineering, I see a list of about 20+ jobs related to the OS itself, and about 2 or 3 related to iApps. Seems like Apple is investing resources in OS development to me, what data were you basing your breakdown of iApp vs OS X.


I would suggest either laying off the caffeine or getting a gym membership and working off some of your rage constructively...:rolleyes:

But then again, it's always nice to follow the spirited exchanges on this forum.


About the Powerbooks upcoming, and the current 800's for that matter too: I've only got a 450 G3 that I bought new, and it came with 8.6 on disc. The apple web site makes it look like they provide a disc for 9.2 and a disc for OSX with each new computer -- is this true? If not, do they give you a disc with OS9 on it, or do you have to install both OS's unless you come across a disc for OS9 from another source? I know this is really dum-dum stuff, but I'm interested in finding out. I have a disc with 9.1 on it: Are the newer powerbooks/powermacs able to boot into 9.1 or are they limited to 9.2 and up? Appreciate the responses.

regards,

vixapphire

(edited to remove boring references to previous flamer/rager's self-immolation)

[shadowfax]

I would suggest either laying off the caffeine or getting a gym membership and working off some of your rage constructively...

dude, lmao. that was great.

[john123]

Originally posted by Mirage_


Ok, rofl, as if the number of posts i've put up on mac rumors has any significance at all. Second, and *I* quote:
"It's time for Apple to step it up and devote some of that R&D money currently designated for iApps to OS optimization." You're stating a comparison of the two subjects right there. It groups the two entities into the same group, and implies that resources can be/are shifted between the two freely. I've already stated that there are a minimum of two teams, one working on the OS, and one working on iApps. You could further break this down, into teams for each iApp, and teams for specific parts of the OS. But thats not the point. The point is that the two have nothing to do with each other, and saying that they should take resources away from iApps and put it towards OS development is a pointless statement. What they can do is hire more talent to work on the OS. When I hit up apple.com/jobs and do a search on Software Engineering, I see a list of about 20+ jobs related to the OS itself, and about 2 or 3 related to iApps. Seems like Apple is investing resources in OS development to me, what data were you basing your breakdown of iApp vs OS X. I've seen great improvement since the beta of OS X. And please, OS X looks to much like XP? You've got it backwards, screenshots of XP's interface started getting leaked a few weeks after the OS X beta was released. Don't try and qualify yourself by your meaningless macrumors rating. It means nothing. Please continue to defend your opinions which are based on nothing. At least this 'n00b' has some sort of physical data to back up his post. (heres a hint, if you don't want to compare iApps and os x optimization, then remove one of them and just say, "I think apple needs to continue to work on optimizing OS X")

I'm gonna keep this short and sweet because, as Arn so aptly pointed out, this general discussion is rather off-topic. I really don't know why all the flamers have come out to attack me, but...

You didn't present any "physical data" on anything. I think we can all agree that there is some non-zero dollar amount spent on iApps R&D, and there is also some other non-zero dollar amount spent on development on the OS and OS optimization. Therefore, by elementary logic, money *could* be taken from one project and re-allocated to another. The relative proportions of R&D money spent on each project is completely irrelevant -- I still maintain that LESS should be spent on one and MORE should be spent on another. I don't know why this logic -- and yes, my *opinion* as to what Apple should do -- is proving so difficult for you to understand.

As for my comment about Windows XP looking like OS X, I made NO comment about which one came first. I simply said that I don't like the GUI on either and prefer the simplicity of OS 9 and Windows 2000.

I'm going to leave you alone. If you want to flame me back, knock yourself out. All I've tried to do is voice an opinion of what I *hope* will happen -- i.e., that the new PowerBooks will come out this year and not at MWSF -- and the reasons behind my hopes. If that means that you want to be a bitter person and flame me again, I won't respond in kind.

----
OK, with that done: who here cares about a SuperDrive in the next round of PowerBooks, and who'd rather see a bigger speed bump and a Radeon Mobility 9000 (assuming that this is an either-or proposition)?

[vixapphire]

no question; give me speed and better video. if i want some flashpants drive, i'll buy an external and keep it for use with future computers. ahh, the beauty of firewire/usb/scsi/whatev.


(honored)

cheers,
vixapphire

[Postal]

I'd rather see the overall speed boost; a mobile Superdrive certainly isn't going to be any faster than the current desktop drives that are on their way out. It would perhaps help out the "desktop replacement" types who don't use anything BUT a Powerbook, but they're a fairly small niche - or at least, the ones who would also need DVD recording are.

[john123]

I tend to agree. About a year ago, when the PowerBook G4 Rev. Bs were being rumored, we talked a lot about whether anyone cared about having a combo drive. Some of us (me included) said it was pointless -- because external CD-RWs burned much faster and because it wasn't that hard to lug an external around. Others really wanted a combo drive. Of course, the Rev. Bs came out without a combo drive, only to get combo drives for $100 more not too long thereafter.

I was one of the people who bought the first revision Bs without a combo drive, and I was happy to finally get a combo drive when I sold my Rev. B and got a DVI. Then I started using it and realized that there's just no substitute for a nice, fast external.

I'd love for Apple to focus on the speed and the graphics chip and leave the SuperDrive for another day. Maybe make a portable, Firewire (Gigawire?) one to satisfy those folks who want one. Making it standard seems kind of like a waste to me, and it'll artificially increase the price point. With PC laptop pricing more aggressive than ever, I think that's the last thing Apple should do.

[Rower_CPU]

I can go either way on the SuperDrive issue.

Sony has already beaten Apple to the punch there, but with a less aesthetically pleasing manner (no slot load, thicker enclosure). Apple has repeatedly promoted video professionals using PowerBooks for work, and a DVD burner would be a welcome addition. However if time/$ constraints are an issue, I agree they need to go ahead and release something soon.

Apple definitely seems to be waiting on something...what that is is unclear right now. The possibilities are numerous: DDR, GPU, CPU...Superdrive...?

Maybe we'll see on the 5th. :D

[scem0]

Apple definiely needs a superdrive. A lot of 'professional' users need them. Adding a super-drive would help sales a lot.

[mphatik]

Originally posted by john123


This remark irked me enough to bring me out of months of hiding to respond.

Mac OS 9 is not "antiquated" whatsoever. It's a solid, stable OS that is, from a performance perspective, leaps and bounds ahead of OS X. Even if you have the latest hardware (which I do), the two aren't comparable by any benchmarks. And those differences really kick in while multitasking -- an area in which OS X was supposed to, in theory, excel.

For anyone who cares about the speed of their machine (which, in the business world, is proportional to their productivity), 9 simply makes far more sense. It's Apple that needs to "get with the program" and optimize X to make it at least on par with 9. There are a lot of us out there who couldn't care less about antialiased, shadowed fonts. We like our blocky fonts and our Apple menu and our low bit-depth icons precisely because they make our machines faster. We like to be able to turn off stuff (i.e., extensions and control panels) we don't need to make our machines faster.

Don't lecture me on speed not being "the only thing that matters," either. There's a reason why the microprocessor industry is a multi-billion dollar industry. Speed counts. If you don't think speed counts, then stop using whatever computer you're using right now and go pick up an old Quadra or Centris...or even one of the first Power Macs. See how long you can tolerate it. When you have grown ACCUSTOMED to speed, and it's suddenly taken away from you (as is the case with those of us running 9 on newer hardware), it feels unbearable.

It's time for Apple to step it up and devote some of that R&D money currently designated for iApps to OS optimization. If the new PowerBooks won't run 9, Apple won't be getting my money...and I daresay I'm not alone in this regard, either.

Well, don't get a new PBG4 then...those of you that don't 'get with it' and upgrade to X are going to be left in the cold. Make a book with some cool pictures of your machine....oh, wait...that's right, iPhoto doesn't run on 9. I'm telling ya...you're gonna get left for dead when it comes to new apps and functionality.

[mphatik]

Originally posted by designpro
•••ALERT•••ALERT•••ALERT•••

•••Man, ***** Mac OS 9.x.x!! 9 is dead!! Get with the program and make the jump to X! People that still wanna run 9 just make no sense. ***THIS NEWSBRIEF JUST IN--> MAC OS 9 is an ANTIQUATED OS!*** It served the Mac Community well for many years so let it pass on ALREADY!!•••
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
this is the culprit...started all the angry messages.
i'm just gonna drop in my 2cents.
in my opinion, as a professional graphic designer, i thought it would be just fine to stay with OS 9. I understand that OS 9 doesnt have the best looking GUI but then again thats exactly what i need. I wouldnt want fancy stuff from X just so i have to worry about apps updating. i run Quark 4.11, Photoshop 6 and Ilustrator 9, so now can anyone give me a good reason why to update these to Quark 5, Photoshop 7 and Illustrator 10 so that i can have OS X in place? sure as hell that Quark 5 doesnt run on OS X or does it?
so all in all, stop the angry messages and lets just kick back and wait for your PB. Which OS to use comes in diff. territory, so dont be trashing OS 9 since it gave you so much over the years and dont do the same OS X since you know it's a pleasure to look at those beautiful icons.
and again, to a comment that someone complained about the discontinuation of 15"LCD since it'd be nice for him/her to use it as a pallete monitor, i say go **** yourself. i use a 13incher CRT and thats all you need. dont go outta your way to be a fool.

Hey, 9 had its time under the sun. It was good but now there is 'the best' known as Mac OS X. Sounds like you need to make the leap to X too. I don't understand people that want an OS that can't multitask like X, crashes all the time (unlike X), and has more shareware software available like X. You people react like a bunch of slack-jawwed yocals when you think about life without 9. And yes, it is time...aren't you tired of windows


MPhatik

[scem0]

The only thing I can predict is that apple will overcharge for them. I will probably be right.

[shadowfax0]

AND SYSTEM 7 KICKS ALL YOUR ASSES!!!

[john123]

Originally posted by mphatik


Hey, 9 had its time under the sun. It was good but now there is 'the best' known as Mac OS X. Sounds like you need to make the leap to X too. I don't understand people that want an OS that can't multitask like X, crashes all the time (unlike X), and has more shareware software available like X. You people react like a bunch of slack-jawwed yocals when you think about life without 9. And yes, it is time...aren't you tired of windows


MPhatik

This "slack-jawwed yocal" (who has an Ivy League degree, incidentally) couldn't disagree more on what has the advantage on multitasking. But...

I simply hope that the new PowerBooks come out in November rather than January and that they sport 1 Ghz processors on the main end. I think that then, regardless of which OS each of us prefers, we'll all be happy.

Anyone heard any gossip? I know some of the folks over at MacNN were talking about 933 and 1.0...but with so little space separating the two, I think Apple'd have a tough time moving the high end -- except for those people who simply want to brag that they have an Apple portable that broke the gigahertz barrier. News anyone?

[arn]

Originally posted by john123

Anyone heard any gossip? I know some of the folks over at MacNN were talking about 933 and 1.0...but with so little space separating the two, I think Apple'd have a tough time moving the high end -- except for those people who simply want to brag that they have an Apple portable that broke the gigahertz barrier. News anyone?

http://www.yourdailymac.com claims 1GHz and Superdrive'd Powerbook.

Similar to other rumors...

arn

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by john123


This "slack-jawwed yocal" (who has an Ivy League degree, incidentally)...
Well - la de da!
:D

[shadowfax]

Well - la de da!

i hope, as suggested by your emoticon, that you were being facetious. the guy is clearly very intelligent, and obviously didn't flash his credentials out at first. he was pressed to say that by all means. it's one thing to diss a guy before you know where he's coming from. it's another to diss him after. of course it doesn't necessarily matter that he's ivy league. he could be so and still be dumb. just likew asses can come out a school like that, geniuses can come out unacclaimed schools. it's not the beall end-all point of credibility. but don't spit on it. it's evidence supporting that the guy is smart and reasonable, which doesn't contradict what he's been posting at all.

why be insulting?

[shadowfax0]

...so you're the one who amde me put this infernal 0 at the end of my name! :eek:

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by Shadowfax


i hope, as suggested by your emoticon, that you were being facetious. the guy is clearly very intelligent, and obviously didn't flash his credentials out at first. he was pressed to say that by all means. it's one thing to diss a guy before you know where he's coming from. it's another to diss him after. of course it doesn't necessarily matter that he's ivy league. he could be so and still be dumb. just likew asses can come out a school like that, geniuses can come out unacclaimed schools. it's not the beall end-all point of credibility. but don't spit on it. it's evidence supporting that the guy is smart and reasonable, which doesn't contradict what he's been posting at all.

why be insulting?
Um - yes. I was being funny.

[Mirage_]

Originally posted by Pelorus


Had the same problem. turned out my PSU was dodgy and killed the battery. Course...it was covered under appleCare. Since getting a replacement my battery life is back where it should be...

5 hours on a Pismo? Yeah right. Even at the lowest settings 3 hrs is damn good unless you're counting leaving it asleep...

they must have had defective PSU's I had to get mine replaced as well...I never got a new battery though. Does the new battery give you 3 hours on 9 or X? I used to get 5 all the time on OS 9..

[Mirage_]

I also graduated from an Ivy League School, with a PhD in Electrical Engineering no less. I'm glad you're all content with my credentials now.

[shadowfax]

well, if you presented a tone that was anything but haughty and full of assumptions...

"the more i learn, the less i know." like i said, such a credential is no basis for just assuming. i am taking issue with the manner in which you argue. john 123 wasn't being mean. as someone with a doctorate, you should know better than to just shoot down people's opinions without any consideration. so OS X may be better on many things and at everything. it's not god any more than you or me. john123 has had a different user experience. (and probably not totally uncommon at all). just because it's not your user experience, or even a majority of users' experiences, doesn't make it wrong.

OS X is not a total replacement. they (wisely) chose not to make it natively backwards compatible with almost all previous sofware (like M$ has almost always done). that means there are things that people would normally do on OS 9 that they can't do on OS X. it also means that while OS X is better for every computer that 9 is good for (windows XP on a 300 MHz PII-bad idea. 98 is better by far). i don't know what john123's experience is at all, but i've started out from a conciliatory standpoint.

i hate to make a biblical allusion, but arguing at this level when you have a doctorate is like pigs trampling on strings of pearls.

[Mirage_]

Yeah, everyone will have a different experience. But if I say 'OS X is slower than OS 9' or, 'OS X is faster than OS 9' don't you think it's important to specify what hardware I was making this comparison on? John simply states 'newer hardware'. If I replyed to *anyones* post with a negative tone, it was because I didn't think they supported their opinion. Since this is mac*rumors*.com, maybe supporting information/evidence isn't something you're interested in.

[The Grimace]

I don't really care about new displays. The ONE thing that I want from Apple's iMac, eMac, and iBook, is the ability to span the display across two monitors.


The 700 MHz iBook is capable of monitor spanning, it requires an Open Firmware adjustment. Some 600's are as well, it depends on the graphics chipset. And apparently the 17" iMac FP should be capable of it, too. See my last post for links; it's near the middle of pg 5 of this thread.

(tig)

[eric_n_dfw]

I wish Apple would put out an official firmware update to make the G4 iMac's support monitor spanning. Actually, what I'd like is a 17" G4 iMac that has a spanned-SVGA output option like the PowerBook. (not a mirrored SVGA screen) Then I could use it for Final Cut Pro and have a real-time preview monitor.

[The Grimace]

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
I wish Apple would put out an official firmware update to make the G4 iMac's support monitor spanning. Actually, what I'd like is a 17" G4 iMac that has a spanned-SVGA output option like the PowerBook. (not a mirrored SVGA screen) Then I could use it for Final Cut Pro and have a real-time preview monitor.

Did you check out the links from my earlier post? The current 17" iMacs THEORETICALLY support monitor spanning (not just mirroring), but it requires booting into Open Firmware first. From there, you can do a temp adjustment, or make it permanent. It's been successfully done with high-end iBooks, and some of the 600's as well. Depends on the graphics chipset. Anyways, check it out. Maybe someone has confirmed this ability in the iMacs.

However, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Apple to make it official. The spanning is one of the things that separates the iBook from the PowerBook.

(tig)

[pepeleuepe]

I am a student at USC and the price of G4 Powerbooks have been dropped to $1,899 for the 667mhz and $2,399 for the 800mhz at the campus bookstore. I was in the market for a new laptop but because of the price drops I assume that Apple is releasing new laptops soon. Hopefully Nov. 5th is the day, but I wouldn't be surprised if it takes longer than that.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by pepeleuepe
I am a student at USC and the price of G4 Powerbooks have been dropped to $1,899 for the 667mhz and $2,399 for the 800mhz at the campus bookstore. I was in the market for a new laptop but because of the price drops I assume that Apple is releasing new laptops soon. Hopefully Nov. 5th is the day, but I wouldn't be surprised if it takes longer than that.

Those EDU prices have been in effect for a month or more...so nothing new there.

[Mr T]

I wish Mirage_ would go away.

[Mirage_]

rofl

[vixapphire]

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

Well - la de da!
:D

just a bit of info fer all you ivy-cred'd high-falutin' ding-dong PhD happy-hour hooligans: "yokel" is spelled with a "kel", not a "cal" (but query whether there are fewer fat yokels as a result)...:eek:

lighten up y'all! we're talking gear here; imagine the stress someone like Vlad Putin is under right now (see drudge and other news) and the heated discussions going on in his cabinet and elsewhere, and get some perspective on your tone-of-post!

[vixapphire]

Originally posted by Mirage_
rofl


sorry to ask a dumb question, but what does that mean?

[pepeleuepe]

rolling on floor laughing

[Mr T]

Originally posted by Mirage_
I also graduated from an Ivy League School, with a PhD in Electrical Engineering no less. I'm glad you're all content with my credentials now.

I am not buying it, at the very least you have the crapiest people skills I have seen in a long while. Please go post somewhere else:eek: :eek:

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Mr T
I am not buying it, at the very least you have the crapiest people skills I have seen in a long while. Please go post somewhere else:eek: :eek:

Sadly, intellect and social skillls tend to be inversely proportional. :eek:

IQ/intelligence has nothing to do with what university you attend(ed). Anyone with enough money can buy a degree. After all, George W. Bush got degrees from Yale and Harvard. ;)

[shadowfax0]

True that! :D

[Computer_Phreak]

lol... for those of you like George W, he is holding the book upside-down

[The Grimace]

Originally posted by shadowfax0
True that! :D

Oh me gosh! That pic made my day, shadowfax0. Thanks, 'cause it's been a sucky one at best.

(tig)

[arn]

thread off topic

closed