Powerbook/iBook Specs Roundup [Archive]

rjstanford

Oct 30, 2002, 12:40 PM

Personally, the Bluetooth would be very useful but the real win for me would have been some mention of integrated 802.11a/g networking. Having the external antenna and larger power drain from a PC card really conflicts with some of the reasons that I'm looking to pick up a Powerbook, but the 11mb transfer rate just doesn't cut it in my office.

Ah, well.

The Superdrive is a good plus, and may push me over the edge (assuming that a faster internal wireless card will be forthcoming and available as an upgrade, I can probably live with an external antenna while at work). I guess we'll see what happens when they're officially released.

The real win for me would be a better resolution (the Dell I'm typing this on does 1600x1200 for crying out loud), but I think that I'm just out of luck there. I guess its a tribute to the quality of the hardware/OS that I'm even buying one considering the 50% real estate reduction (and 30-40% DPI decrease) though.

-Richard

dethl

Oct 30, 2002, 12:45 PM

I wonder if Apple is killing the ability to boot into OS 9 in these laptops?

SPG

Oct 30, 2002, 12:50 PM

The Pioneer A05 DVDR is a 4x burner which is nice, but it ain't slot loading yet. There was a report a couple months ago about a demo of a slot load DVDR in Tokyo, but I can' tremember if it was Pioneer's (I'm thinking not). There is a slot load DVDR drive out there right now, (Panasonic? Sony?) but it's not a slam dunk that it will be in the powerbook, since it's not the standard vendor that Apple's been using. I know that's a minor detail, but don't underestimate Apple's commitment to Pioneer.

akula47

Oct 30, 2002, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by rjstanford
The real win for me would be a better resolution (the Dell I'm typing this on does 1600x1200 for crying out loud), but I think that I'm just out of luck there. I guess its a tribute to the quality of the hardware/OS that I'm even buying one considering the 50% real estate reduction (and 30-40% DPI decrease) though.

-Richard

Ahh.. 1600x1200 is just inanse on a small laptop screen. If the option was there, then fine. But like on PC machines, if that is the optimal res, then anything lower looks like ****. SO, it is not acceptable to force everyone to look at something as small as 1600x1200 if everything below it is ****.

Bradcoe

Oct 30, 2002, 12:59 PM

Native resolution sucks on LCD's. I hate not being able to change it. I want the maximum resolution that will fit, but Mr. Joe might want something a little less for his own eyes, but then Mr. Joe has to look at a horrible screen when it's not running in native. This is the LCD's one downfall. The ability to adjust the resolution to a lower one should be improved so it looks nicer. THEN sell a 1600x1200 laptop display.

What about the possibility of an LCD display being able to scale higher than its native resolution? Right now it would require pixels to act as multiple pixels, but maybe new hardware would allow this somehow, or maybe its just impossible with LCDs all together.

e-coli

Oct 30, 2002, 01:03 PM

my biggest beef with the powerbooks is the low resolution, too. they need a higher-res screen.

moo083

Oct 30, 2002, 01:19 PM

a. There were rumors a while ago that sort of died down that there was going to be an enhanced display on the new powerbook.

b. Thereis a minor detial people are missing. Look at the original Powermac versus the current one. There has been several casing changes since late 1999 and perhaps the case will changed slightly now for the powerbook. If this is the case (and look and yourdailymac.com) then perhaps different things are to come. Though I doubt the picture on your daily mac is acurate because Apple hasn't forced them to take it down (though maybe this is a new Apple tactic), it is a possibility which allows ideas such as tray dvdrs etc.

c. Just because the Powerbook MAY not be upgraded to a radeon 9000 mobility does not mean it is not going to be upgraded. I wish (since I am buying one of these babies) that it will be a 9000, but any upgrade would be appreciated.

JtheLemur

Oct 30, 2002, 01:31 PM

What I REALLLLLLY want is a SMALLER iBook.

Even if it's say, a Special Edition one. What I wouldn't give for the current iBook (12" screen and all... maybe a little faster...) to be wrapped in a thin metal instead of a thick plastic!

Or, even if they cut DOWN the screen size and made the whole thing smaller overall... even eliminated the CD drive! That would be great. Since they're doing the XServe, why not a subnotebook? Every tech I know that does their share of on-site work has a Sony PictureBook since they are just damn portable, MOST are even running Linux. It would be great if Apple could make a MiniBook. =D

Here's hoping!

*justin

mcrain

Oct 30, 2002, 01:39 PM

A new powerbook with bluetooth, internal dvd-r, faster processor, maybe even a better screen....

Oh, I think I just got an *rection.

cubist

Oct 30, 2002, 01:45 PM

... was from Matsu****a (Panasonic).

Shaggy_Alien

Oct 30, 2002, 01:49 PM

hhhmmm my Q. is will they ship on the 5th,
how much $$$ and is it TRUE???

Shaggy

rjstanford

Oct 30, 2002, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by akula47

It is not acceptable to force everyone to look at something as small as 1600x1200 if everything below it is ****.

<sarcasm>Wow. Its too bad that OSX doesn't let you change your font size.</sarcasm>

Assuming that you have the graphics power to run it at a reasonable rate, a higher dotpitch leads to clearer text -- especially with the modern antialiasing systems built in.

Then again, maybe you have a point. I do hate having to squint to read text on modern laser printers ... whatever happened to good ol' 300dpi where the text was shown at full size?

sparkleytone

Oct 30, 2002, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by akula47

Ahh.. 1600x1200 is just inanse on a small laptop screen. If the option was there, then fine. But like on PC machines, if that is the optimal res, then anything lower looks like ****. SO, it is not acceptable to force everyone to look at something as small as 1600x1200 if everything below it is ****.

i think this is kind of misstated. in the pc world, and under classic, 1600x1200 is an insane resolution for a laptop yes. BUT, among many other things, OS X has changed the way people use and see resolution of the screen. OS X not only takes more real estate by default, but it seems to encourage higher resolutions by its object model and gooey icons.

on another note...i also think the powerbook BETTER be the 9000. there is NO reason for it not to be. the 9000 is PIN COMPATIBLE with the 7500. anything less would be a slap in the face.

moo083

Oct 30, 2002, 02:06 PM

Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with pin compatibility. It has everything to do with amount of stock Apple has, heat, and size, though I am sure that size is not an isue. I would love a 9000 though. Please gods of grpahics, give me a radeon mobility 9000 for the graphics card on the new powerbooks!

....and oh yeah, please let them actually be announced on the 5th...

Titanium.X

Oct 30, 2002, 02:20 PM

Pioneer makes a tray-loading DVD-R drive that will fit the PowerBook. It burns DVD-R and DVD-RW discs at 2x not 4x though. Panasonic (Matsushıta) makes both a tray-loading and slot-loading DVD-R drive that will fit the PowerBook. It burns DVD-R discs at 2x and DVD-RW discs at 1x so not as fast as the Pioneer. It is also slower at burning CD-RW discs. Apple has used Matsushıta in the past for their slot-loading drives so they will going with them here, at least initially. It was announced October 3rd and was said to be available towards the end of the year. If the 3-5 day wait at the Apple Store is any indication, they may not have gotten them in time. It's 50/50 really. They could also offer it as a BTO-only option initially with delayed delivery.

jettredmont

Oct 30, 2002, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by Bradcoe
Native resolution sucks on LCD's. I hate not being able to change it. I want the maximum resolution that will fit, but Mr. Joe might want something a little less for his own eyes, but then Mr. Joe has to look at a horrible screen when it's not running in native. This is the LCD's one downfall. The ability to adjust the resolution to a lower one should be improved so it looks nicer. THEN sell a 1600x1200 laptop display.

Well, a 1600x1200 display will look nice in two resolutions, at least: 1600x1200 and 800x600 (double-sized pixels).

Hoping for anything better in other rezolutions is not a very reasonable goal.

Yes, with realtime antialiasing you should be able to do it, but the simpler solution (from a processing point of view) would be on-demand resizing of all UI widgets (there is nothing saying that a scroll bar *has* to be 32 pixels across, you know!) and fonts and images in Quartz. Would have roughly the same effect, but you'd spend much less processing power doing it (widgets only need to be resized once and then drawn over and over again; at the GPU layer there would be no indication that scroll bar X and Y are really the same thing and so the scaling doesn't really need to be repeated ...) and you would get fewer artifacts introduced and more discrete detail retained than compositing everything in, say, 1024x768 and scaling as a continuous-tone image up to the LCD's native resolution. The difference for non-bitmapped stuff would be dramatic (think a line drawn on an old 320x240 screen compared to a line of the same physical size on a new 1600x1200 screen ...)

But, unfortunately, while OSX has a nice icon scaling system, I've never heard any mention of wholesale replacement of screen geometries in it's API set. It's a shame, because many people run their computers at a low resolution just so that certain UI elements are a larger "target" to hit, but have to live with the ugly screen and eye strain side effects of inch-tall pixels.

moby1

Oct 30, 2002, 03:34 PM

Panasonic's (Matsush?ta) SuperDrive would convince me.

2 X is fine. People who think they don't need a DVD-R haven't tried one yet. I hope I've burned my last CD with a measly 650 MB of storage. I won't have the cash until Jan. but even if the SD is a BTO extra - I'd go for it!

moby1

~ burn'n down the house at 1X right now : (

Computer_Phreak

Oct 30, 2002, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by jettredmont

Well, a 1600x1200 display will look nice in two resolutions, at least: 1600x1200 and 800x600 (double-sized pixels).

[think the movie 'Office Space'] Oohh, ya, ummm... I'm going to have to go ahead and sort of.... Disagree with you there... ya.. [/think the movie 'Office Space']

It would look good in 1/4 of the native resolution, 400x300, because then four pixels will emulate one pixel.

jettredmont

Oct 30, 2002, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by Computer_Phreak

Well, a 1600x1200 display will look nice in two resolutions, at least: 1600x1200 and 800x600 (double-sized pixels).

[think the movie 'Office Space'] Oohh, ya, ummm... I'm going to have to go ahead and sort of.... Disagree with you there... ya.. [/think the movie 'Office Space']

It would look good in 1/4 of the native resolution, 400x300, because then four pixels will emulate one pixel.

Well, I did say "nice", not chunky like an Atari 2600 ...

For that matter it would also look at least decent (though with a black column on one side) in 533x400, 3x3 pixel blocks. And, of course, it could emulate a 1x1 single-pixel screen quite easily, although the aspect ratio might be off a bit ...

iShater

Oct 30, 2002, 04:22 PM

Superdrive would be nice, being able to opt out of it on regardless of what other system specs you ask for is nicer.

I hate the fact that with Apple if I want a faster iBook, I am stuck with a combo drive.

It should be all about options. :rolleyes:

sboy

Oct 30, 2002, 04:51 PM

It is hard to believe Apple would not include Bluetooth with the new TiBook's especially since there are now mobile phones with Bluetooth. I would love to see this and think it would be a mistake for Apple not to include it at this point. What is the point of iSync if there is not bluetooth included? This seems like a simple easy addition - not sure why they would wait.

Also, I do not know why Apple is dragging it's heels with Firewire II - I believe if they wait much longer it may be a mistake. What will happen is that the pc's will all adopt usb 2 and support for firewire will dwindle and kill it like it killed scsi on the macs. Apple should put out Firewire II in the TiBooks - waiting any longer is simply a bad business move.

Apple needs to include a DVD-R and/or RW solution in this current round of laptops. Take a look at the new Sony laptops. Again if Apple waits much longer I fear people may abandon ship and go with the faster souped up DVD-R & RW models by pc manufacturers.

arn

Oct 30, 2002, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by SPG
There is a slot load DVDR drive out there right now, (Panasonic? Sony?) but it's not a slam dunk that it will be in the powerbook, since it's not the standard vendor that Apple's been using. I know that's a minor detail, but don't underestimate Apple's commitment to Pioneer.

Well, actually... like I said, it seems very likely.

arn

SPG

Oct 30, 2002, 05:14 PM

I forgot to add "comitment to Pioneer and the -R format."

cb911

Oct 30, 2002, 05:17 PM

i'm just wondering if the new TiBooks will have the SuperDrive available in both the low and high end models?

madamimadam

Oct 30, 2002, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Awimoway
It's sad that Bluetooth is not considered a slam dunk. With iSync out there, I think it ought to be standard as of now on all Macs.

I'm with you, I want my new PowerBook to last me a few years and I want to buy a BlueTooth phone next year some time.

madamimadam

Oct 30, 2002, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by cb911
i'm just wondering if the new TiBooks will have the SuperDrive available in both the low and high end models?

I seriously doubt it due to expense and power consumption.

vixapphire

Oct 30, 2002, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by iShater
Superdrive would be nice, being able to opt out of it on regardless of what other system specs you ask for is nicer.

ya mon, i think it would be groovy to listen to Bachman Turner Overdrive on a Superdrive. Party on! :cool:

david50100

Oct 30, 2002, 11:00 PM

I love Mac but nothing is cooler than Alienware's Area 51m notebook (2.8GHz, Radeon 9000, 1600x1200 UXGA) - if weight is not a factor. :p

rice_web

Oct 30, 2002, 11:14 PM

If Alienware's laptop was the size of the PowerBook, you can bet that I'd go without food, bathing, heat, etc. just to have one. Yes, I AM that much of a geek.

fpnc

Oct 30, 2002, 11:53 PM

I think the possibility of a new 1 GHz PowerBook is fairly low at this time. One thing that may prevent this is the power consumption and heat generation of the current G4. A 1 GHz G4 using the same manufacturing process that is in the current DVI PowerBooks would consume about 50% more power and generate significantly more heat than the existing 800 MHz unit. So, given the relatively modest battery life and significant heat generation in the current 800 MHz DVI PowerBook I don't think a 1 GHz unit is likely unless: 1.) Motorola does a manufacturing process shrink on the G4 -- or -- 2.)Apple radically changes the cooling design in the Titanium enclosure and introduces a significantly more powerful battery.

There has been some talk about a die shrink in the G4, but I think that is more likely to occur in mid-to-late first quarter 2003 (not by Nov. 5, nor even in December). Also, I'm not certain that Apple could make enough improvements in the cooling design and battery capacity of the existing titanium enclosure without a significant change in the PowerBook's form factor (i.e. it might need to be bigger and heavier).

So, if there is going to be a new PowerBook on Nov. 5 I'm guessing something much more modest. Perhaps a new "high-end" 867 MHz with 64MB of video RAM and maybe a SuperDrive. The latter should be possible given a slot-loading DVD-R mechanism. Then they might move the "low end" to 800 MHz, without SuperDrive, and with the current 32MB of video RAM.

What I do expect on Nov. 5 is a new 19" LCD and (hopefully) an update to the display form factor on all of the Apple displays. I'd like something that offers height adjustment and better tilt and swing control. The latter (change in form factor) seems unlikely, as I expect Apple will retain the basic physical design simply because it looks cool (may not be ergonomically correct, but looks can sell).

mariner77

Oct 30, 2002, 11:55 PM

I don't care about 1GHz G4. I want Firewire 2, 802.11g airport, bluetooth, brighter/higher contrast screen, cooler running G4 (<10 Watts) quieter fans, DVD-RW, stronger Titanium coating, Radeon Mobility 9000 and to a lesser degree DDR-RAM. Anything faster than 667 MHz (one I just sold) with the most of the above features will do me just fine.

Here is what my crystal ball tells me, remember you heard it here first.

Realistically, expect 933MHz or 1GHz G4, same airport, no bluetooth, same screen, hotter G4, no DVD-RW (at least right away), same casing, maybe Apple will throw in Firewire 2 as a bonus, MAYBE. I'm also tempted to say that you'll see Mobility 9000, definite no DDR-RAM.

Aug/Sept 03:
PBG4 1.2-1.4 GHz with Firewire 2, USB 2.0 802.11g, bluetooth, upgraded display, modified casing, DVD-RW, Mobility 9500 or something and definitely no DDR-RAM, expect faster MPX bus however.

Mar. 04:
PBG4 using G4+ 1.8-2.0 GHz plus DDR-RAM for sure. If casing not dramatically changed in '04, it will this time. 7 hrs. battery life.

Expect 64bit PB using 970 mobile derivatives in 2005 running MacOS XI.

madamimadam

Oct 31, 2002, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by fpnc
I think the possibility of a new 1 GHz PowerBook is fairly low at this time. One thing that may prevent this is the power consumption and heat generation of the current G4. A 1 GHz G4 using the same manufacturing process that is in the current DVI PowerBooks would consume about 50% more power and generate significantly more heat than the existing 800 MHz unit. So, given the relatively modest battery life and significant heat generation in the current 800 MHz DVI PowerBook I don't think a 1 GHz unit is likely unless: 1.) Motorola does a manufacturing process shrink on the G4 -- or -- 2.)Apple radically changes the cooling design in the Titanium enclosure and introduces a significantly more powerful battery.

There has been some talk about a die shrink in the G4, but I think that is more likely to occur in mid-to-late first quarter 2003 (not by Nov. 5, nor even in December). Also, I'm not certain that Apple could make enough improvements in the cooling design and battery capacity of the existing titanium enclosure without a significant change in the PowerBook's form factor (i.e. it might need to be bigger and heavier).

So, if there is going to be a new PowerBook on Nov. 5 I'm guessing something much more modest. Perhaps a new "high-end" 867 MHz with 64MB of video RAM and maybe a SuperDrive. The latter should be possible given a slot-loading DVD-R mechanism. Then they might move the "low end" to 800 MHz, without SuperDrive, and with the current 32MB of video RAM.

What I do expect on Nov. 5 is a new 19" LCD and (hopefully) an update to the display form factor on all of the Apple displays. I'd like something that offers height adjustment and better tilt and swing control. The latter (change in form factor) seems unlikely, as I expect Apple will retain the basic physical design simply because it looks cool (may not be ergonomically correct, but looks can sell).

I really do not think that power of the G4 chip is a problem. While the power difference might be a lot comparitley speaking, it is really not that much power.

Heat, on the other hand, is a VERY important and VERY prominant problem. You can not throw Mirrored Drive Door cooling into a PowerBook.

I would not imagine there would be a release with 67MHz difference.... the extra expense of the high end machine could not be justified.

bretm

Oct 31, 2002, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by rjstanford

The real win for me would be a better resolution (the Dell I'm typing this on does 1600x1200 for crying out loud), but I think that I'm just out of luck there. I guess its a tribute to the quality of the hardware/OS that I'm even buying one considering the 50% real estate reduction (and 30-40% DPI decrease) though.

I had to work on one of those the other day with xpressDV from Avid. By far the most horrible laptop experience I have ever had. I can't even stand that resolution on a 20 inch monitor. Everytime I reach out and touch a PC I'm bewildered by the manufacturer's lack of vision.

madamimadam

Oct 31, 2002, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by bretm

I had to work on one of those the other day with xpressDV from Avid. By far the most horrible laptop experience I have ever had. I can't even stand that resolution on a 20 inch monitor. Everytime I reach out and touch a PC I'm bewildered by the manufacturer's lack of vision.

How can a laptop have such a high resolution but a desktop monitor not??

The Apple 17" LCD can only reach 1280 x 1024 and the PowerBooks resolution is 1280 x something with a 15" monitor.

nerm

Oct 31, 2002, 04:09 AM

Originally posted by Computer_Phreak

[think the movie 'Office Space'] Oohh, ya, ummm... I'm going to have to go ahead and sort of.... Disagree with you there... ya.. [/think the movie 'Office Space']

It would look good in 1/4 of the native resolution, 400x300, because then four pixels will emulate one pixel.

No, 800x600 means 4 pixels for every pixel on an 1600x1200 screen. 400x300 would mean 16 native pixels / pixel.

By the way, I don't know if it is only my Powerbook, but if you change it to a non-native resolution it antialias it so you don't get unproportional pixels. I have a Compaq laptop as well that doesn't do this so I know what you mean by it looking ugly as hell but it's not the case with my mac.

/ nerm

medea

Oct 31, 2002, 08:08 AM

Think secret says they have "confirmation" :
PowerBook AND iBook speed bumps Nov. 5, sources confirm

October 31, 2002 - November 5 will see more than just PowerBook speed-bumps from Apple. Sources confirm the consumer iBook will also get an update as well, and a much-needed price cut. Neither model will get a face lift this time around.
Exact pricing was not disclosed on any of the models, but Apple is clearly concerned iBooks need a competitive advantage and as such, will lower prices just a bit. Because of conflicting reports of the new processors' speeds in both lines, Think Secret has decided it best not to speculate. There is a "very good chance", as one source put it, that Bluetooth will be an added feature on all models.
There has been much speculation that at least the high-end models of both product lines might include a SuperDrive with DVD-RW/CD-RW capabilities. Let us put this issue to rest: There will be no Superdrive version(s) announced. Apple is facing no "difficulties" fitting the SuperDrive into a PowerBook enclosure, as many other sites have reported. Sources firmly report Apple never tried to accommodate tray-equipped drives into these laptops and that until a slot-loading SuperDrive is abundantly available, Apple laptops will not have SuperDrives. That is not to say Apple won't update the PowerBook design when SuperDrives are added. As sure as the sun rises everyday, a PowerBook re-design is a certainty next year.
Sources indicate Apple delayed the introduction of the new laptops in an effort to clear out existing inventory. This is not new practice for Apple, which is much more inventory-conscious than just two years ago. Over the past six weeks, inventory of existing 667MHz and 800MHz PowerBook G4 models has been slowly dwindling in both Europe and the United States with available weeks of inventory standing at 7 weeks and 2 weeks, respectively through the largest Mac distributor in the U.S., Ingram Micro. More importantly, no new inventory of either existing model is being shipped to Ingram Micro.

http://www.rumortracker.com/framesets/thinksecret/index.html

steveh

Oct 31, 2002, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Computer_Phreak

It would look good in 1/4 of the native resolution, 400x300, because then four pixels will emulate one pixel.

At "half resolution", you get four pixels to one at full resolution (two horizontal, two vertical).

At "one-quarter", you'd have 16 pixels to 1 at full resolution (four horizontal by four vertical).

digitalbiker

Oct 31, 2002, 11:45 AM

The more I use my TI 800 G4 the more I think that I would rather see the new PowerBook go to a sleek new plastic design like the iBook. I have several reasons.

1) I am tired of babying the TI for fear of scratching and denting.
2) Airport reception sucks in metal cases.
3) I hate having to remove my watch everytime I want to use the keyboard.
4) The case is too slick, it is hard to grasp without cmpressing the screen.
5)The case warps too much under pressure. (ie resting hands on top of drive bay, and opening screen by a corner)
6) I have seen numerous paint horror photos on the web of aging TI's.
7) Body chemistry apparently reacts with palmrest finish over time.
8) And did I mention how easily this think scratches.
9) Some people even get a regular static shock off of the case.

I for one will be happy to see a new design. Even if it has to be ".1" inches thicker for bullet-proof ABS plastic, I would appreciate a more robust design from Apple.
:cool:

vixapphire

Oct 31, 2002, 02:59 PM

Just out of curiosity, for all you mega computer/engineer types, assuming Apple changed nothing else in the current 800M G4 Tibook, but added another meg of L3 cache (making it 2 instead of 1), what percentage speed improvement would you expect the computer to have? I'm curious, given the difference between the older and newest dual-gig powermacs' performance, wherein (according to what I've read here) the newer computers' bus-speed improvements were essentially neutralized by the reduction in L3 cache.

If the difference is significant, apple could probably get away with a 933 cpu with 2M of L3; that may result in an appreciable difference in performance beyond the mere 133M of raw horsepower.

Thoughts?

Somebody

Oct 31, 2002, 03:08 PM

Airport reception sucks in metal cases. I recently came across this fix:

Making this quick, I just got off the phone with Apple tech support. I called to ask if there's anything I can do to improve my Ti's Airport range. After some questions about distance and interference like microwaves, cordless phones, and walls, the tech told me to shut down my powerbook and flip it over.
I was next instructed to eject the battery and look at the right side wall of the battery compartment where I was supposed to find an approximately 5 cm long plastic strip. (My particular powerbook doesn't have this visible -- instead, there is a plate with the serial number, etc...) Still, he told me to firmly press the side wall of the powerbook against the frame, just slowly and firmly pressing along its length several times for about 10 seconds. Next, he told me to replace the battery and start her back up.
I can't believe it, but my Airport's range is now like my iBook's!! I never could have done this from out here by the pool before, but here I am.
(The above grabbed from http://www.macnet2.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1095)

It sounds weird, and I haven't tried it myself, since I don't (yet) have a TiBook, but it seems to have worked well for a number of people.

Rocketman

Oct 31, 2002, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by mariner77
I don't care about 1GHz G4. I want Firewire 2, 802.11g airport, bluetooth, brighter/higher contrast screen, cooler running G4 (<10 Watts) quieter fans, DVD-RW, stronger Titanium coating, Radeon Mobility 9000 and to a lesser degree DDR-RAM. Anything faster than 667 MHz (one I just sold) with the most of the above features will do me just fine.

Expect 64bit PB using 970 mobile derivatives in 2005 running MacOS XI.

I agree with your Ti feature list. This Ti400 is nowhere near EOL as a practical matter and the featuritis is far more important than speed most of the time.

I/O is always a bottleneck as it directly impacts the user experience. higher capacity graphics, FW2, 802.11g are essentials ASAP. I would exchange better graphics and faster FSB for a slower processor anytime.

As for processor, I am willing to wait for the 970. The current mhz bumps in portable G4's are more for marketing than anything practical. In fact the computer has a 1/2 speed processor option that I leave on most of the time, unless doing something truly processor intensive. That's a measley 200mhz and its fine!

Rocketman

Over Achiever

Oct 31, 2002, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by Somebody
I recently came across this fix:

(The above grabbed from http://www.macnet2.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1095)

It sounds weird, and I haven't tried it myself, since I don't (yet) have a TiBook, but it seems to have worked well for a number of people.

I think it has something to do with the anntenna being "unseated" or something.

fpnc

Oct 31, 2002, 10:45 PM

madamimadam said, "I really do not think that power of the G4 chip is a problem. While the power difference might be a lot comparitley speaking, it is really not that much power."

Well, without a significantly more powerful battery a 1 GHz TiBook would have pretty poor runtime. I have the 800 MHz unit and the batteries (I have two) generally run for only about two hours, so with a similar battery I guess you'd be lucky to get 90 minutes on a 1 GHz machine. This is why I said Apple is going to have to significantly improve their battery if they plan on using a 1 GHz G4. Given the continual improvements in batteries I'm fairly certain that Apple can find something better to fit the current form factor. However, can they really find something 50% better? So, if they do go to 1 GHz you can probably expect noticeably less runtime than you get with the current 800 MHz unit.

The heat is another matter. It's nice that the Titanium PowerBooks don't have to run their fans full-time. It seems that most PC notebooks have a fan running all the time, fairly slow at idle, but moving a reasonable amount of hot air out of the enclosure. However, has anyone noticed that the fans in the PowerBook do __not__ move air either in or out of the enclosure? They depend almost completely on heat transfer out through the metal case, the fan just moves the air over an internal heat "pipe" to improve the transfer into the metal case. This seems to be a fairly clever design, unless the heat makes the case too hot to handle. Well, IMO the 800 MHz unit is getting very close to this limit. When the TiBook is running at near idle, everything is fine, but run it at 50% and the fans come on and the case and the keyboard start to get warm. Then as you get nearer to full power the fan is running on high (fairly noisy), the top-back-side of the case is almost too hot to touch, and the keyboard gets uncomfortably warm. So, unless Apple can find a way keep more of the heat away from the case and the keyboard I don't think a 1 GHz PowerBook would be very comfortable to use.

In all fairness, I think the current PowerBooks are great machines. But, I'm afraid that given its form factor and the slow pace of processor improvements from Motorola the PowerBooks may be nearing the same speed "wall" that has affected the desktop units. Of course, if Apple can produce a really great battery and find a better cooling method then a 1 GHz might be possible. However, I'm not expecting much of a speed bump this November.

madamimadam

Oct 31, 2002, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by fpnc
madamimadam said, "I really do not think that power of the G4 chip is a problem. While the power difference might be a lot comparitley speaking, it is really not that much power."

Well, without a significantly more powerful battery a 1 GHz TiBook would have pretty poor runtime. I have the 800 MHz unit and the batteries (I have two) generally run for only about two hours, so with a similar battery I guess you'd be lucky to get 90 minutes on a 1 GHz machine. This is why I said Apple is going to have to significantly improve their battery if they plan on using a 1 GHz G4. Given the continual improvements in batteries I'm fairly certain that Apple can find something better to fit the current form factor. However, can they really find something 50% better? So, if they do go to 1 GHz you can probably expect noticeably less runtime than you get with the current 800 MHz unit.

I have two points in reply:

1stly, there are new batteries coming out soon but I would doubt that they will be on the next PowerBooks; and
2ndly, just because the processor uses 50% more power does not mean the machine does. The processor is a VERY small portion of the total power used by the machine. The processor in your PowerBook takes about ask much power as the average light bulb and sometimes even less so it really is not creating a great strain on the battery.

mpest

Oct 31, 2002, 11:48 PM

I think we're going to see a new airport card with 802.11g, bluetooth, AND gps with some soft/hardware from Wheels Of Zeus (http://www.woz.com) . I think we could see location based integration with networking and amazing new sherlock plugins.

This might not seem likely at first, but it is a very apple type move, - new expensive card, many reasons to buy; you want one feature, why not get em all - and we're due something new, innovative, and cool. If not the fifth then MWSF. You heard it hear first.

or maybe someone else said the same thing but i didn't know.

fpnc

Nov 1, 2002, 12:41 AM

Originally posted by madamimadam

I have two points in reply:

1stly, there are new batteries coming out soon but I would doubt that they will be on the next PowerBooks; and
2ndly, just because the processor uses 50% more power does not mean the machine does. The processor is a VERY small portion of the total power used by the machine. The processor in your PowerBook takes about ask much power as the average light bulb and sometimes even less so it really is not creating a great strain on the battery.

You make a valid point. However, I suspect (but don't know for certain) that the LCD backlight and the G4 consume more power than any other components. In fact, they're probably about equal in energy use and together they may account for 40 to 50 percent of the power consumption. Add to this that the fan will likely be running more often with the faster processor (getting rid of the heat takes more energy) and that the cache and system clock will also be running faster. Therefore, taken all together I wouldn't characterize this as a "VERY small portion of the total power." Certainly not 50% more, but a very noticeable change.

In any case, we should know in another week if a 1 GHz PowerBook is practical (without compromises or a new design).

madamimadam

Nov 1, 2002, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by fpnc

You make a valid point. However, I suspect (but don't know for certain) that the LCD backlight and the G4 consume more power than any other components. In fact, they're probably about equal in energy use and together they may account for 40 to 50 percent of the power consumption. Add to this that the fan will likely be running more often with the faster processor (getting rid of the heat takes more energy) and that the cache and system clock will also be running faster. Therefore, taken all together I wouldn't characterize this as a "VERY small portion of the total power." Certainly not 50% more, but a very noticeable change.

In any case, we should know in another week if a 1 GHz PowerBook is practical (without compromises or a new design).

I like your point about the fan... I did not think of that... I know there are a couple of people around that know almost exactly where all the power is used but since I do not know any names I can just hope someone read this and gives us a hand.
:)

I was, however, shocked when you said you get 2hr out of your 800. I am going to buy a PowerBook when they come out next and I expect them to be 800MHz. I did not really think I was going to get the 5hr Apple claims but I did expect to get a lot more than 2.

Shaggy_Alien

Nov 1, 2002, 01:50 AM

Ha,

It sound like everyone here thinks that Apple should fire there engineers that
are involved with the Powerbook, LoL Is there a big heat different from the
667 to the 800 Powerbook? Do the math.

Airport, It should (better have it)
Blue tooth, that would be cool (let hope for it)
Better Battier, should be no problem now a days....
Superdrive, Forums say yes Apple says No (it would be cool if it had it)

But again everybody is throwing there opinions and what they think,
that the G4 1Ghz eat allot of power an make to much heat, hmmmm
if that is the case then the smart move would be not to put in a Superdrive
cause DAM that would eat allot and be to hat HuH?

My opinion is that Apple should work more on External DVD-R support
there Laptops. Also I think the real Q is will they be available on the 5th
and for how much. Same Price more in it? Or more likely a RIP off
add more to the price and a little to the product.

G4 1Ghz hey I'll get one.... you?

Shaggy

madamimadam

Nov 1, 2002, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by Shaggy_Alien

But again everybody is throwing there opinions and what they think,
that the G4 1Ghz eat allot of power an make to much heat, hmmmm
if that is the case then the smart move would be not to put in a Superdrive
cause DAM that would eat allot and be to hat HuH?

IMO, Superdrives should not even be thought about until new batteries come out. As for heat... god only knows what they're gonna do there.

Ambrose Chapel

Nov 1, 2002, 07:55 AM

Think Secret is reporting that the date has been pushed back to the 6th:

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/nov6portables.html

jettredmont

Nov 1, 2002, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by vixapphire
Just out of curiosity, for all you mega computer/engineer types, assuming Apple changed nothing else in the current 800M G4 Tibook, but added another meg of L3 cache (making it 2 instead of 1), what percentage speed improvement would you expect the computer to have?

Well, amount of cache is a tricky effect to quantify. More cache allows you to keep larger "working set" applications "in cache" instead of constantly swapping cache and main memory. So, really, you'd have to have a good memory profile of a specific application to determine this.

On the "high" end (ie, a single program that uses exactly 2MB of working set in random rotation) L3 is, if I remember correctly from WWDC, a 10x improvement from main memory, and so you'd see half of your memory access going ten times as fast. Which would mean, assuming your app is memory constrained, you would go from 1x+10x (11x) to 1x+1x (2x), or a little better than a 5x improvement.

However, you've got some big caveats built in: your app is memory constrained, even in L3; you have true random memory access so that all bits of that 2MB are accessed equally often; not much else is running on your computer to take up the L3 cache so you don't have to swap cache in/out when your app is/does preempt. It's extremely rare for all of these to qualify, and I'd be very surprised if a cache increase would give a real-world machine more than a 1-2% performance improvement (I would be surprised because Apple engineers are smart enough to have run the numbers on this already and they should have optimized the cache regarding performance/cost).

jettredmont

Nov 1, 2002, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by fpnc
madamimadam said, "I really do not think that power of the G4 chip is a problem. While the power difference might be a lot comparitley speaking, it is really not that much power."

Well, without a significantly more powerful battery a 1 GHz TiBook would have pretty poor runtime. I have the 800 MHz unit and the batteries (I have two) generally run for only about two hours, so with a similar battery I guess you'd be lucky to get 90 minutes on a 1 GHz machine.

That's the point you are missing: the CPU doesn't take up anywhere near 100% of the power requirements on a TiBook. On an Intel laptop, the processor is about 50% of the battery drain, so a 50% increase in CPU power-drain would cause a 25% increase in battery drain (which would be a 20% reduction in battery life). On a TiBook, as far as I can tell, the CPU is at most about 25% of the load, so a 50% increase would be about a 12.5% increase in battery drain, which is an 11% battery life decrease. So, if the current TiBook lasts 120 minutes on a particular battery, the "new" TiBook would last 107 minutes.

On the other hand, the impact of a higher battery drain would be minimal if you are actually using that speed of processor, because whatever you are doing would hopefully take less time to do (and if you aren't using that speed processor, buy the cheaper model!). If the machine performance averages out to ~11% better (which it wouldn't be likely to do, as most apps will be IO bound instead of CPU bound in this case), and you're actually using your CPU the whole time it is on instead of it sitting idle, then you've got the same amount of work being done on a single battery cycle, but being done faster.

I know, cold comfort when you just want the machine to stay alive long enough to play a DVD on a cross-country flight, but ... well, until more intelligent CPU and bus speed control goes in, no PC is going to shine in the long-life/low-power environment.

madamimadam

Nov 1, 2002, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by jettredmont

That's the point you are missing: the CPU doesn't take up anywhere near 100% of the power requirements on a TiBook. On an Intel laptop, the processor is about 50% of the battery drain, so a 50% increase in CPU power-drain would cause a 25% increase in battery drain (which would be a 20% reduction in battery life). On a TiBook, as far as I can tell, the CPU is at most about 25% of the load, so a 50% increase would be about a 12.5% increase in battery drain, which is an 11% battery life decrease. So, if the current TiBook lasts 120 minutes on a particular battery, the "new" TiBook would last 107 minutes.

On the other hand, the impact of a higher battery drain would be minimal if you are actually using that speed of processor, because whatever you are doing would hopefully take less time to do (and if you aren't using that speed processor, buy the cheaper model!). If the machine performance averages out to ~11% better (which it wouldn't be likely to do, as most apps will be IO bound instead of CPU bound in this case), and you're actually using your CPU the whole time it is on instead of it sitting idle, then you've got the same amount of work being done on a single battery cycle, but being done faster.

I know, cold comfort when you just want the machine to stay alive long enough to play a DVD on a cross-country flight, but ... well, until more intelligent CPU and bus speed control goes in, no PC is going to shine in the long-life/low-power environment.

fpnc did make a goode point, though, that the faster processor would have greater heat and need the fan more often which = more battery.

dabirdwell

Nov 1, 2002, 10:01 PM

If Apple wants to keep the titanium body they are going to need to move at least the back panel of the case to a microperforated titanium. Very small holes throughout the metal along with tiny raised bumps in between the holes. When the case is placed on a surface it remains slightly raised with lots of tiny air pockets to dissapate heat, plus the texture this would create on the metal would be bad-ass.

As long as the case itself acts as the radiator for the built-up heat, they will have to find some solution to heat dissapation before the 1Ghz is introduced. Allow the air to move, convection will cool much better than radiation and conduction (Usually to your scalded lap). Hoping for a new enclosure...

madamimadam

Nov 1, 2002, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by dabirdwell
If Apple wants to keep the titanium body they are going to need to move at least the back panel of the case to a microperforated titanium. Very small holes throughout the metal along with tiny raised bumps in between the holes. When the case is placed on a surface it remains slightly raised with lots of tiny air pockets to dissapate heat, plus the texture this would create on the metal would be bad-ass.

As long as the case itself acts as the radiator for the built-up heat, they will have to find some solution to heat dissapation before the 1Ghz is introduced. Allow the air to move, convection will cool much better than radiation and conduction (Usually to your scalded lap). Hoping for a new enclosure...

I am not too sure convection heating is really possible with a laptop.

Falleron

Nov 2, 2002, 06:00 AM

Not sure if you have all seen this article?

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/nov6ibooks.html

Anyway, it looks like the ibook will get a predicatable 100Mhz + larger HD.

dabirdwell

Nov 2, 2002, 12:02 PM

So does this mean we may see a redesigned iBook in January, or is it going to be awhile?

vixapphire

Nov 4, 2002, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by dethl
I wonder if Apple is killing the ability to boot into OS 9 in these laptops?

i hope not.

will be interesting to see whether the company delights or disappoints its core user/fan base tomorrow or wednesday.

jettredmont

Nov 4, 2002, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by madamimadam

I am not too sure convection heating is really possible with a laptop.

"Convection" is the process of transfering heat energy via moving matter (ie, air or another fluid normally). Fans cool by convection (moving the heated air away from the heat source). This is in contrast to "conduction", which is the movement of energy through a mass, and "radiation", which is the movement of energy via sub-atomic particles/radiation (depending on your POV on what radiation is, wave or particle, at the particular time).

Traditional cooling mechanisms use conduction to take the heat from an inconvenient source (such as a CPU) to a more convenient/larger surface area object (such as a heat sink), and then convection to disperse the heat into the general atmosphere.

Adding a fan of any sort to the notebook would allow convection to take place. That, of course, is one of the first things notebook manufacturers look at to cool their systems (although noise generated is roughly proportionate to air flow and no one wants a notebook louder than the jet engine outside your airplane window).

While "convection" is also used to describe a process where the heated air moved of its own accord (ie, "up", replaced by downward-flowing cooling air), this is really more properly refered to as "self-convecting". And, no, I don't think a laptop has enough vertical open space to allow for a large degree of air self-convection. And, of course, that would make your keyboard and palm rest the heat sinks, and I don't think Joe Consumer would appreciate hot air convecting up between his fingertips as he types ...

"Heat tubes" rely on self-convection of a fluid (picked for its thermal properties; not often air) within a tube, and are driven by one end of the tube being appreciably higher up than the other end of the tube. Some PC manufacturers (Shuttle comes to mind) have had great success in cooling small-form-factor PCs using heat tubes, along with a more traditional heat-transfer mechanism at the "output" end (heat sink+fan). However, the only possible way I can see this working in a laptop situation is if the heat tube went from the innards of the machine (CPU, GPU, etc) to the "top" of the open laptop screen, allowing the entire back side of the laptop case to essentially act as a heat sink ... but then, of course, the heat tube would have to bend at the screen/body joint, which is a tricky situation (this isn't just wires, but a tubing that has to remain 100% structurally sound through years of abuse and fairly dramatic heating/cooling cycles, and provide the cross-sectional area and lack of surface friction required to allow self-convection to take place ... a very tricky materials problem indeed!). Plus, what happens when you "close" the notebook (perhaps to put it in a dock, perhaps to have it continue to play MP3s through your headphones while you catch a quick snooze on the plane), thus removing the vertical differential required for the cooling mechanism? Or, what happens if you don't operate the laptop with the degiend 90 degrees between lid and base? Any catastrophic structural failure of the heating system would destroy your system via overheating within seconds, but also any "slow leak" failure would stand a high chance of causing a short and likewise destroying your system.

So, no, I don't see self-convection, even in the relatively versatile heat tube, as a really near-term possibility on a laptop. But it would be really cool if Apple could do it anyways :) ...

jettredmont

Nov 4, 2002, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by jettredmont

Traditional cooling mechanisms use conduction to take the heat from an inconvenient source (such as a CPU) to a more convenient/larger surface area object (such as a heat sink), and then convection to disperse the heat into the general atmosphere.

My apologies to my college mass/heat transfer prof for incorrectly using "heat" and "energy" interchangably throughout the previous post ... :)

madamimadam

Nov 4, 2002, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by jettredmont

My apologies to my college mass/heat transfer prof for incorrectly using "heat" and "energy" interchangably throughout the previous post ... :)

Dude, you could have saved yourself the problem by just pointing out that fan cooling is also convection cooling instead of giving us a science lesson.
:)

Definition One:

Convection is the transport of energy due to density differences when not in a free-fall (microgravity) environment. As a liquid or gas is heated it expands and becomes less dense and therefore lighter. If a cooler denser material is above the hotter layer the warmer material will rise through the cooler material to the surface. The rising material will dissipate its heat (energy) into the surrounding environment, become more dense (cooler), and will sink to start the process over.

Definition Two:

Heat transfer in a gas or liquid by the circulation of currents from one region to another.

Therefore it is convection cooling because there is a current caused by the fan from one region to another.

dabirdwell

Nov 4, 2002, 09:45 PM

My point was that obviously the fan is already trying to cool by convection but in the solid enclosure the air can't move much at all. I think Ti users would prefer a warm breeze coming from the bottom of the machine than the hotplate it can be now. Originally I suggested only the bottom panel breathe.

The radiant heat dissipation I refer to is that that occurs from the titanium itself into the air, and the conductive heat dissipation I refer to is that from the titanium directly to whatever surface the computer is sitting on. As I understand it, the heat sinks are connected to the casing, allowing it to act as a (very hot) radiator.

MacCoaster

Nov 4, 2002, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by jettredmont
Well, amount of cache is a tricky effect to quantify. More cache allows you to keep larger "working set" applications "in cache" instead of constantly swapping cache and main memory. So, really, you'd have to have a good memory profile of a specific application to determine this.

On the "high" end (ie, a single program that uses exactly 2MB of working set in random rotation) L3 is, if I remember correctly from WWDC, a 10x improvement from main memory, and so you'd see half of your memory access going ten times as fast. Which would mean, assuming your app is memory constrained, you would go from 1x+10x (11x) to 1x+1x (2x), or a little better than a 5x improvement.
Unfortunately, the only reason they need the L3 is because the memory bandwidth blows. Once you've got the main memory bus VERY fast, L3 isn't needed (PowerPC 970, Athlon, Pentium 4, etc.).