More Powerbook Rumors...

[MacRumors]

MacUser.co.uk (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/news_story.php?id=34648) is reporting on the upcoming Powerbook upgrades with numbers that are contrary to other circulating rumors:


Instead the fastest PowerBook will be 933MHz (up from 867MHz) and the entry level 667MHz model will be speed-bumped to 867MHz.

According to their sources, Superdrive is not going to be an option, while Bluetooth will be built-in.

Meanwhile, ThinkSecret (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/nov6portables.html) reports the date of release is pushed back to November 6, 2002.

[medea]

Seems like everyone has something different to say, we will just have to wait on this one. I think though that if there is not superdrive in this update, then we wont see a superdrive until a new model comes out.

[Falleron]

"(up from 867MHz) ", thats wrong for a start!

[vollspacken]

...aaaargh!!!

NO radeon 9000???
NO faster system bus???
:mad:

so, what else will justify the price increase that will surely occure???

...equals: NO money from me!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[arn]

Originally posted by vollspacken

so, what else will justify the price increase that will surely occure???


Why do you think the price will be going up? The price will likely be the same as the current models.

arn

[Megaquad]

933 MHz?? Apple is expecting me to give 4500$ for 933 MHz laptop without radeon 9000? **** that, i can go and buy 2 GHz PC laptop and be happier, run games and apps faster... But I am addicted to macs.. crap crap why is this happening to me arrghhhhh
calm down its just a rumor, we'll see whats up on 5th or 6th november
btw, why are macs so ****ing expensive in europe? damn apple, they dont give a **** about us

[GetSome681]

A 66 MHz difference between the two configurations just doesn't seem likely to me. With MOST things that difference isn't noticeable...which means why in the world would anyone spend the extra ~$1k on the 933 = lost $ for Apple. This just doesn't seem likely to me.

[psymac]

"up from 867mhz"

Should say of course, 800mhz. But is 800mhz and 933mhz enough of a difference to justify the price points on these two machines? The 933mhz better have something else to offer, such as bluetooth and better video.

Too bad no more rumors yet on iBook updates, that's what my credit card is really waiting to pounce on. Or, if its anything like the recent Powermac release (ho hum) on Nov 6th, then a new or refurb 12" 700mhz iBook will be on my shopping list.

[impierced]

MacUser has rarely been wrong and I believe them 99%!!!

No 1GHz chip (933Mhz)
No faster bus (remains at 133MHz)
No SuperDrive (keeps the DVD/CD-RW combo)
No faster graphics (remains with ATI 7500)

Ooooo... Ooooo...

But, it DOES have BlueTooth... yea!!!

I was going to buy two new PowerBooks, but not this load of crap. Know why sales are down... Apple doesn't provide a reason to upgrade.

So I get a 133MHz faster chip (no small upgrade mind you, but that 1GHz mind set is killing them) and BlueTooth for the bump. Hmmm looks like I'll be waiting another 6 - 8 months...

[Thirteenva]

So the plot thickens.....

Well i'm not sure what to believe. There is just too many conflicting reports on specs.

I can't see apple having a low end 867 and a high end 933. A 66mhz diffrence won't justify the 700 dollar price diffrence between high and low end. Even if the high end has bluetooth and low end doesn't. And i would imagine we'd have to see some sort of graphics card update. How can we not, its been quite a while since the tibook got an update, about 8 months if i'm not mistaken. I'd like to see the Radeon 9000 in there.

I think we have another 8 months before we see a superdrive in the tibook. So here's hoping for 1ghz, bluetooth and radeon 9000. Keeping my fingers crossed and hoping to win the lottery. :D

I guess we'll just have to sit and bite our nails in anticipation

[achmafooma]

While the TiBook is an attractive machine, it seems that it hasn't changed (with any visual significance) in AGES. I was hoping for some kind of amazing new enclosure, but I guess I'll have to wait for MacWorld in January (if even then). I'm no long-time Mac user (I switched only 14 months ago), so what kind of turnover does Apple usually have on designs? When did the TiBook initially come out?

I know this is a little loony, but with a change to the hinging mechanism it would be to major technical feat to make the TiBook screen fold all the way around the back and clip (using a similar clip to that which is already on the grabbing mechanism) to the bottom.

A TiBook that can fold over into a tablet would really steal Microsoft's TabletPC thunder scheduled for the 7th. From an OS side, all they'd need to do I figure is change the orientation of the screen and enable Ink during the flip.

I know it's crazy, but it's a fun thought isn't it? :-) Maybe they'll do something radical in January. After all, radical new designs have been part of Apple's continuing upswing since the debut of the original iMac, I'm not expecting them to stop now.

[impierced]

Originally posted by Thirteenva
How can we not, its been quite a while since the tibook got an update, about 8 months if i'm not mistaken.

Just a little mistaken, the PowerBook G4 was last rev'd just a little over 6 months ago.


--- begin differences in PowerBook G4 just over a year ---

October 16, 2001

550 Mhz or 667 Mhz G4 with 256K L2 cache
133 Mhz system bus on 667, 100 Mhz on 550 Mhz
DVD-ROM or CD-RW
ATI Mobility Radeon with AGP 4X and 16MB DDR
10/100/1000 Base-T Ethernet
20GB, 30GB, or 48GB Ultra ATA/66
USB, FireWire, VGA and S-video output


December 17, 2001

*CD-RW/DVD-ROM across the board


April 29, 2002

*667 Mhz and 800 Mhz G4 with 1MB L3 cache
*133 Mhz system bus on all models
*ATI Mobility Radeon 7500 with AGP 4X and 32MB DDR
*DVI output
*Increased resolution to 1280 x 854


November 6, 2002

*867 Mhz and 933 Mhz G4 with ? cache
*BlueTooth

--- end differences in PowerBook G4 just over a year ---


If Apple would improve the graphics card in addition to the 933 and BlueTooth I'd buy, otherwise I'll wait some more.

[cubist]

... is the weakest part of the TiBook, everyone knows it, and so that will need something better. Next year, I suppose.

If Airport reception's troublesome on the ti, won't bluetooth reception be iffy too?

Someone suggested the date change here on MacRumors a long ways back. Hi, Apple!

As for the Superdrive, a MacRumors report mentioned the (here come the asterisks) Matsu****a (Panasonic) drive in connection with the new machines, and that drive is indeed available slot-loading in quantity.

As for the new iBook - :D

Don't panic, folks. Some great stuff is coming out!

[ddtlm]

I have to agree with Thirteenva and GetSome681 that there is no way that there will only be a 66mhz difference between the top and bottom models. No way in heck. We can be rather confident that anyone claiming this this will be the case is wrong.

I'm still hoping on the Radeon 9000 Mobility though, it's just about the simplest thing Apple could do that has any wow-factor.

[impierced]

Originally posted by ddtlm
I have to agree with Thirteenva and GetSome681 that there is no way that there will only be a 66mhz difference between the top and bottom models. No way in heck. We can be rather confident that anyone claiming this this will be the case is wrong.

I'll bet bank it's 800 and 933 Mhz... any takers?

[e-coli]

oooh...impressive. 133 MHz speed bump.

lack-luster.

Give us the 1 Gig. you have the chip. So if this is true, that means the next update in 6 months will be 1 GHz. Dissappointing.

[ddtlm]

impierced:

Yeah I'd sorta bet on 800mhz and 933mhz as well, although the temptation of 1.0ghz seems like it would be enough to make Apple go those extra 66mhz. I'd like to say that I expect 800mhz and 1000mhz, but really how I am I supposed to know...

I'd like to see 2mb L3 on the top model. Every little bit helps, and sadly the PBook needs some help.

e-coli:

In 6 months Moto may be producing their 130nm G4's. Those will surely be offered at speeds higher than 1.0ghz right away (but I can't see Apple offering a huge jump or anything).

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by impierced


I'll bet bank it's 800 and 933 Mhz... any takers?

I've been saying that for weeks now. No one here realizes that Apple HAS ALWAYS (mostly) made the top end the low end the next rev. So why would Apple all of a sudden skip over a low end 800? Don't see it. 800 & 933. No reason to upgrade? Why would you upgrade in 6 months? That's ridiculous. I don't have a PB so this is great for me, I waited for the top to become the low so I could get a good deal. You want to upgrade? Then wait a year or so.

[kumichou]

I have a pretty good feeling they'll be 933 & 800 as well. So far, Apple has traditionally made the top-o-line one generation be the bottom of the line in the next generation.

[Mr Jobs]

macuser uk more then often gets its insider info right, so i guess no ghz powerbooks right now

[Somebody]

I agree on the 800/933 prediction, too.

My bet would be that the step up to the symbolic 1 GHz number will be rolled up with a number of other significant changes, including a new enclosure.

[XMac.no]

Apple probably would'nt put the low end model 67 mhz over the current top model and so close to the coming top model. Especially not if the top model does'nt go past 933 mhz. Something needs to justify the price difference between the two. If bluetooth is being built into the new Powerbook then both models will have it. Seeing that it is not a very expensive addon and since they removed the IR port it needs some way of communicating with a cellphone.
If ATI has completed the mac version of the Mobility Radeon 9000 I believe Apple would use it in both configurations. I can't recall Apple having different graphics cards in the two models. They would also want to boost sales on the 9000, so that ATI would'nt loose interest in further development and they would probably move the iBook up to 7500.
When it comes to RAM i believe it would be foolish of Apple to hold back on DDR in such an expensive and professional machine. PC laptops have had DDR for some time and so should Apple. I can almost picture it. The new Powerbook G4 with Xserve technology :D Bus speed will probably remain the same.
Adding all this together you get something like this :

Powerbook G4 800 @ 133 mhz
256 DDR Ram
40GB
Radeon 9000
Bluetooth

Powerbook G4 933 @ 167 mhz
512 DDR Ram
60GB
Radeon 9000
Bluetooth
AirPort

[XMac.no]

About the bus speed I ment remain the same on the low end, but upped on the top model. Up to 167. Also I'm hoping on a faster disk interface.

[ddtlm]

XMac.no:

Powerbook G4 933 @ 167 mhz
I can essentially gaurentee that this will not happen because there are not, to my knowledge, any DDR-333 SO-DIMM's (laptop RAM) available for sale anywhere.

Not to mention that 933mhz is not a valid CPU clock speed for a 166mhz FSB.

[GetSome681]

Originally posted by ddtlm
XMac.no:


I can essentially gaurentee that this will not happen because there are not, to my knowledge, any DDR-333 SO-DIMM's (laptop RAM) available for sale anywhere.

Not to mention that 933mhz is not a valid CPU clock speed for a 166mhz FSB.

He's not saying DDR. Just saying a FSB of 167. Just like how you can have pc100, pc133, etc. I don't see this happening...just b/c they'd save the new mobo revision for maybe a new case. I say this b/c how many of Apple's computers have gone rev. E+ on basically the same enclosure? I'm assuming not many...so who knows.

Anyone remember that "leaked" inventory page that listed a 1 GHz TiBook...not to mention that some high up there executives were thought to have been seen with these giger laptops. I'm hoping for the 1 GHz...but do know for sure that you won't see 867 and 933 in the two models as I said previously.

[ddtlm]

GetSome681:

We have no reason to suspect that Apple's system controller is capable of handling a different FSB speed than RAM base clock (133mhz FSB => DDR-266, 166mhz FSB => DDR-333, etc), and I know that there is certainly no "PC166" RAM, so there is no known way for a PBook to run with a 166mhz FSB. Sure, in the future I suspect they will, but I do not believe any laptop RAM is available at the required speed yet.

[mr evil brkfast]

Another 133 mhz bump after 6 months- pretty disappointing. I guess it is better than a bump to 733mhz and 867 respectively.

the new 9000 should at least be included otherwise who won't wait for the 1 ghz superdrive model in uhhhhh May or June.

With the 13" ibook seeming out of the question what does everyone think that the ibook will get during the upgrade:

I guess probably 12" at 700 and 800 mhz (same video, ram and optical drives and 14" at 800 mhz (same video, ram and optical drive):

[sneed]

sounds right to me (who would schedule a release to fall on election day?), so maybe they have their facts straight.

[gopher]

Originally posted by Megaquad
933 MHz?? Apple is expecting me to give 4500$ for 933 MHz laptop without radeon 9000? **** that, i can go and buy 2 GHz PC laptop and be happier, run games and apps faster... But I am addicted to macs.. crap crap why is this happening to me arrghhhhh
calm down its just a rumor, we'll see whats up on 5th or 6th november
btw, why are macs so ****ing expensive in europe? damn apple, they dont give a **** about us

Apple's high end notebooks base price are only $3200...it is only if you add things like an extra display, Apple's overpriced RAM because of their contract with the RAM supplier, and a 60 GB hard drive that you start adding up to $4500. Don't panic! Unless you are talking Canadian or Australian dollars. Those numbers are higher even though they often work out about the same.

And if you are a student, teacher, government employee, or military person, you get a discount.

[arn]

Originally posted by Kid Red

I've been saying that for weeks now. No one here realizes that Apple HAS ALWAYS (mostly) made the top end the low end the next rev.

I love how people always come up with super-broad generalizations about Apple...

This is not true, and there is no reason for this to be true. There is no magic formula to Apple's upgrades.

You want an example? The last PowerMac upgrades, perhaps?

arn

[iShater]

Originally posted by impierced


I'll bet bank it's 800 and 933 Mhz... any takers?

If they bring down the prices the original $2299 for the entry level, I would be really considering making my first Mac a TiPB. :p

[mcrain]

Why couldn't it be a 933 for the low end and duel 800 for the high end?

I know it would be a battery monster, not to mention heat, but that would, at least in my mind, justify having the chip speeds near each other.

[Thirteenva]

Originally posted by mcrain
Why couldn't it be a 933 for the low end and duel 800 for the high end?

I know it would be a battery monster, not to mention heat, but that would, at least in my mind, justify having the chip speeds near each other.

The problem was with 933 and 867 being too close in rating. 933 and 800 would seem fine for high and low end respectively.

Its highly unlikely that we'll see duals in the tibook. Look at the fans and the heat sinks in the new Powermacs. No way can they safely run dual chips in the Tibook if they require that much cooling. My 500mhz tibook gets so rediculously hot and when the fan comes on its so damn loud, i can't see how they could possibly run duals in the powerbook. Water cooling is just too expensive for a production laptop, at leas right now.

[pilotgi]

From a marketing prospect, I think that Apple would be better off announcing:

"the latest upgrade to the world's best laptop, the 1GHz TiBook!"

Besides, if there's not another upgrade for six months, the new G4 chips built on the 13nm process will probably be available and then the speed could go above 1 GHz with less heat and power consumption.

Originally quoted by mr evil brkfst
With the 13" ibook seeming out of the question
Where did you hear that?

[User X]

This is getting a bit rediculous. I mean come on, how much longer can we put up with being so much behind the PC world. I love the mac platform, we have the best OS available in my opinion but I can't wait for the day that mac's stand for the best of the best. The newest cutting edge technology in hardware and software. I love my mac but it is hard when people see my G4 and say WOW! that thing is sweet.....how fast is it....and I have to tell them 867mhz. No too impressive compared to a 2+ghz p4 in there eyes. I am tierd of explaing the mhz myth to everybody. It can only take us so far before we have to admit we are behind. The only hope we could have in the ppc world is to have the 64bit 1.8ghz power4lite now. 1 year from now it will barely keep up with the cometition. But we all know that even a year time frame is pushing it. I am just being realistic. I hope they have something up there sleaves that we have no clue about that will blow us away. But from past experience that will not happen. There is always project MAKLAR, that would at least allow us to be up to par with the rest of the world. Don't get me wrong, I hate intel as much as microsoft and that would be a last resort but we need something to save face. I know the hardware side is not apples fault and I don't mean to bash them at all. I would still keep my 867 even if somebody offered me a 2.8 p4 anyday. I just want to see progress.

[mr evil brkfast]

Originally posted by pilotgi
From a marketing prospect, I think that Apple would be better off announcing:

"the latest upgrade to the world's best laptop, the 1GHz TiBook!"

Besides, if there's not another upgrade for six months, the new G4 chips built on the 13nm process will probably be available and then the speed could go above 1 GHz with less heat and power consumption.


Where did you hear that?

I didn't hear that anywhere. Just idle speculation that Apple would not be making such a radical change to the ibook lineup without some sort of press conferance or annoucement or something. Also, if the lackluster powerbook rumors hold true, how can we much can we expect for the ibook?

I agree that the next powerbook update would sound more promising based on what you say above.

[cb911]

this sounds very strange to me. that would make to low & high end models too close in MHz, at least that's what i think. and no new vidoeo card? oh well....

maybe a new redesigned TiBook is not that far away, maybe next year? with superdrive, speeds of 1GHz+ and killer video card and a new case design?:eek: :) they might just be trying to keep everyone happy while they perfect the new PowerBook. that article did mention that this would probably be the last revision before the newly designed model...:D

[kfury]

Originally posted by mr evil brkfast


Just idle speculation that Apple would not be making such a radical change to the ibook lineup without some sort of press conferance or annoucement or something.

On the other hand, almost no buzz was made about the 14" iBook when it came out. It was a concession to consumer demand, and not a product Jobs had any interest in making, as it broke out of the simple product grid. I could see either the 12" or 14" iBook migrating to 13" (probably the 12" line) without much fanfare, unless they managed to do it without raising the price or the weight, then they'll start some "game of pounds and inches" meme or something.

[canadianbacon]

what's project MAKLAR?

[anthonymoody]

"It can only take us so far before we have to admit we are behind. "

We already have to IMO. I have a 2.2Ghz P4 desktop and it's WAY faster and snappier than the fastest dual G4 desktop I tried at the apple store in SoHo recently. I tested a reboot, opening major productivity apps, scrolling in long docs, switching apps/windows, etc. I didn't need a stopwatch because I could very easily feel the G4 as sluggish compared to my P4. No, I did not try Photoshop or video editing (I don't really do those things). I acknowledge that the G4 would certainly have the edge in those activities, as the software has been optimized as such. But from a pure 'general useability' standpoint I gotta tell you guys that the G4, even at its best, is already behind in terms of overall system use. I also paid a fraction for my P4 (1 gig ram, 120GB hd, 18 inch digital flat panel) of what the Mac I tested cost.

Dont get me wrong, I love OSX and wish Apple nothing but the best. I have a 667 TiBook coming my way that I got for a song on Ebay, loaded with software. But dont delude yourselves. The Ghz myth may be just that on a Ghz to Ghz basis, but in terms of the gap now, PCs have the edge in terms of general system speed, whether that stem from CPU, bus, RAM speed, other subsystems or whatever.

TM

[bkassing]

WEAK! Pathetic. Very hard to believe a small little mhz jump and no video card. Weak.

[Sayer]

I'd love to know how someone can "spot" a 1 GHz PowerBook in someone's posession.

Is there a big read "1 GHz" painted on the lid? Is there a massive heat sink protruding from the bottom? Do these people run up and ask the person what speed the CPU is and if its a "test" model (someone walking around with a one-offed/custom electronics anything on the Apple campus is rather unlikely).

Just something I have always wondered about with these so-called N MHz/GHz PowerBooks "sightings" that rumor sites throw out there.

Reminds me of the (quite old) rumor about an Apple employee riding a bike around the Cupertino campus with an Apple brand PDA/Newton-like prototype device on their person. Yeah THAT happened.

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by arn


I love how people always come up with super-broad generalizations about Apple...

This is not true, and there is no reason for this to be true. There is no magic formula to Apple's upgrades.

You want an example? The last PowerMac upgrades, perhaps?

arn

There is, and if not for Moto then the trend would've continued. They couldn't get out anything faster then 1.2ghz. The new mobo had major heat issues and was therefore not ready. We will get it in jan and see if the 1.25 is the low end :)

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by canadianbacon
what's project MAKLAR?

I believe that's the X on AMD x86 project.

[shadowfax]

how could they toss the mobility 9000? that's hands down the dumbest thing about the whole idea of this rumor. i don't care about 1 GHz. 66 MHz is no big difference. sure 1 GHz is a nice statement, but it pales thoroughly in comparison to the ability to say "we have the best graphics card for laptops in the world by any test." DDR RAM is useless to. i would much rather have 2 MB l3. going DDR would just make more heat, take more power, and not be any more useful than extra L3. DDR RAM on a 133/167 MHz bus is just not worth it. but my god, my god, why would they skip out on the radeon m 9000? this had better be BS.

[gopher]

Originally posted by User X
This is getting a bit rediculous. I mean come on, how much longer can we put up with being so much behind the PC world. I love the mac platform, we have the best OS available in my opinion but I can't wait for the day that mac's stand for the best of the best. The newest cutting edge technology in hardware and software. I love my mac but it is hard when people see my G4 and say WOW! that thing is sweet.....how fast is it....and I have to tell them 867mhz. No too impressive compared to a 2+ghz p4 in there eyes. I am tierd of explaing the mhz myth to everybody. It can only take us so far before we have to admit we are behind. The only hope we could have in the ppc world is to have the 64bit 1.8ghz power4lite now. 1 year from now it will barely keep up with the cometition. But we all know that even a year time frame is pushing it. I am just being realistic. I hope they have something up there sleaves that we have no clue about that will blow us away. But from past experience that will not happen. There is always project MAKLAR, that would at least allow us to be up to par with the rest of the world. Don't get me wrong, I hate intel as much as microsoft and that would be a last resort but we need something to save face. I know the hardware side is not apples fault and I don't mean to bash them at all. I would still keep my 867 even if somebody offered me a 2.8 p4 anyday. I just want to see progress.

Instead of telling them 867 Mhz, tell them it does 13 billion floating point calculations a second.

Next thing you'll know, they'll try and find out how many billion floating point calculations their PCs can do. Mhz is so antiquated even AMD is no longer advertising its Mhz speed. The sooner we let go of the Mhz rating, the better for Apple.

[fpnc]

Since almost everyone was assuming that a 1 GHz G4 was a given and after thinking a little more about some of my earlier statements (heat and power requirements -- I’ll admit that I was a little flamboyant in my statements -- i.e. technically I misspoke) I decided earlier this morning to compromise somewhat and thus my conclusion was the following:

933 MHz G4 on the high end. Same graphics, same display, maybe a bump in the HD size. Nothing else of note.

800 MHz G4 becomes the new low end.

What this amounts to then is a modest speed bump and little else. It does, however, allow the top end iBook to move to 800 MHz (I’m not saying the latter will happen, but it does open that product slot).

If Apple wants to save some money and at the same time lower prices I wonder if they might drop the level-3 cache. This would mean that the new machines would only be marginally faster (in most cases) than the existing PowerBooks but it could allow them to lower prices to some degree and it might help somewhat in the areas of heat and power consumption (but probably not by much). Many consumers may only look at the MHz ratings and nothing else, so this might be a viable marketing tactic. Of course the engineers at Apple would likely scream bloody murder about this, but the marketing people might consider it a smart move (i.e. higher MHz, lower cost, how can you lose?).

The only possible surprise for next week might be a PowerBook with a slot-loading SuperDrive. Although the latest rumors suggest this will not be possible I’m not entirely convinced that it won’t happen (i.e. Steve Jobs hasn’t had an opportunity to say “Oh, and one more thing” for quite a while now). A 933 MHz unit with a SuperDrive would be a nice enhancement over the current offerings. So, if Steve makes next week’s announcement you can probably assume that a SuperDrive-equipped PowerBook will be introduced -- but not shipped until next month ;-)

In any case, what I really want is a new desktop 19” LCD from Apple.

[Inhale420]

Originally posted by arn


Why do you think the price will be going up? The price will likely be the same as the current models.

arn

yes apple seems to be good at keeping prices steady even with significant upgrades.

[kfury]

Originally posted by fpnc
933 MHz G4 on the high end. Same graphics, same display, maybe a bump in the HD size. Nothing else of note.

800 MHz G4 becomes the new low end.

What this amounts to then is a modest speed bump and little else.
Everyone here seems to be missing the point (or at least a point): that this means a $600 drop in the price of the current fastest powerbook. Call them 'modest speed bumps,' 'disappointments,' or whatever else you want, but speaking as someone who was ready to buy a powerbook three weeks ago but didn't because I thought a refresh was on the way, this means I can get the powerbook I would have gotten, but for at least $600 less, and if I'm lucky it'll have a bigger hard drive, a faster display, and/or internal bluetooth as icing on the cake.

I'm not disappointed.

Kevin Fox
Me, me, me!: http://fury.com

[yzedf]

this is pretty discouraging (http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.asp?customer_id=19&keycode=6V017&order_code=8two8&cfgpg=1#updatepriceNS) when you look at what else is on the market now.

P4 2.2 GHz
1GB DDR RAM
Radeon 9000
1600x1200
2 optical drives or 2nd battery/hdd

Granted the sex appeal of the hardware and the OS isn't there, but this is a better machine than the 2 yr old server at my work!

Apple needs to wake up and compete if they really want people to 'switch'

[gopher]

Very interesting link to the Dell site about that notebook, and guess what...you have to choose one of those three internet options...there is no choice when it comes to buying a Dell. You either buy 6 months of internet service with one of 3 major carriers or you can't buy it at all. Very funny.

"Internet/Networking Options
Internet Access Options Learn More
6 Months of MSN Internet Access Included
6 Months of America Online Membership Included
6 Months of Earthlink Internet Access"

So you add yet another $120 to the price.

I think I'll choose my own ISP thank you.
---------
PCs force you to opt-out....Macs allow you to opt-in whatever you choose. Just like spam. We don't want force feeding of ANY kind thank you very much!

[fpnc]

Originally posted by yzedf
this is pretty discouraging (http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.asp?customer_id=19&keycode=6V017&order_code=8two8&cfgpg=1#updatepriceNS) when you look at what else is on the market now.

P4 2.2 GHz
1GB DDR RAM
Radeon 9000
1600x1200
2 optical drives or 2nd battery/hdd

Granted the sex appeal of the hardware and the OS isn't there, but this is a better machine than the 2 yr old server at my work!

Apple needs to wake up and compete if they really want people to 'switch'

And it weighs probably seven or eight pounds. Yes, the PC notebooks are faster and often cost less, but the Titanium form factor at only five and one half pounds is still pretty competitive when you consider size, weight, and features. It is no longer the best in these categories but it is still pretty good (IMO).

[Marzzz]

I have to agree with those who are disappointed with Apple's hardware and the growing gap to the Wintel stuff....make what you want regarding the megaHz myth, but in real world usage that is important to me, specifically audio and softsynths, the Mac is getting absolutely spanked. I was interested in getting a desktop with DDR RAM, only to see that I'll have to wait until the system bus speed is up to it. I was also looking forward to the new PowerBooks (the lack of L3 cache on my current 667 rev B is especially crippling for my usage), but a mild speedbump without the other rumored features (vid, bus speed, 1 gHz, superdrive) means Apple will not see my money for a while yet....

[bkassing]

Anyone who thinks they are getting a "deal" on an 800 has been sucked into the fact that the 800 is overpriced to begin with and the $600 between the 667 and 800 is worth it. Anyone who actually took some time to look at the performance difference between a 667 and 800 would see it is minimal. So if the 800 now comes in at $2300 it would be where it it competitive.

[Mr T]

It seems that I have been waiting way to long for Apple to put out some hardware that was worth buying . To expensive and underpowered are the mantras of the day. I have a lot of Mac friends who are in the same boat. No wonder so few people are upgrading to OS 10. Part of the problem is Apple is refusing to make upgrades like putting the 1.2 G3 in an ibook so people wait until a decent model is released. For all those people saying mghz does not matter, they are not living a G3 world barely squeaking by with limited options for running future software


Is it time to get a cheap Dell and wait a year to see if Apple can get its act together? I am beginning to think so. I also see a lot of Mac heads making excuses for Apple- it is time to quit the 'it will be fixed in the next round of upgrades'.
:D

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by kfury

Everyone here seems to be missing the point (or at least a point): that this means a $600 drop in the price of the current fastest powerbook. Call them 'modest speed bumps,' 'disappointments,' or whatever else you want, but speaking as someone who was ready to buy a powerbook three weeks ago but didn't because I thought a refresh was on the way, this means I can get the powerbook I would have gotten, but for at least $600 less, and if I'm lucky it'll have a bigger hard drive, a faster display, and/or internal bluetooth as icing on the cake.

I'm not disappointed.

Kevin Fox
Me, me, me!: http://fury.com

What he said :)

[tgrundke]

I am among the band of disgruntled PowerBook users. My 2000 Pismo 400 is now beginning to show its age, but frankly, I believe the Pismos were the last of the 'good value' PowerBooks that Apple released.

While I adore and relish the design and beauty of the TiBook, there is no reason to upgrade at this time for all but the most demanding of users. To pay $2499 for a 667mhz machine is a slap in the face, and $3299 for an 800mhz PowerBook is sheer lunacy.

One can argue all they want that the new PowerBooks offer improved graphics subsystems and busses and screens, etc. However, how many of us have the money to toss around for a new laptop every two years? I for one, cannot. Therefore, I am holding out for a laptop that "has legs" and will carry me for several more years.

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by tgrundke
I am among the band of disgruntled PowerBook users. My 2000 Pismo 400 is now beginning to show its age, but frankly, I believe the Pismos were the last of the 'good value' PowerBooks that Apple released.

While I adore and relish the design and beauty of the TiBook, there is no reason to upgrade at this time for all but the most demanding of users. To pay $2499 for a 667mhz machine is a slap in the face, and $3299 for an 800mhz PowerBook is sheer lunacy.

One can argue all they want that the new PowerBooks offer improved graphics subsystems and busses and screens, etc. However, how many of us have the money to toss around for a new laptop every two years? I for one, cannot. Therefore, I am holding out for a laptop that "has legs" and will carry me for several more years.

So your 400 has gotten you 3 years of use but a 800 at twice the speed wont? I understand maybe finacially you can't swing the money, but that doesn't seem to deminish the value of the 800. Come next week, the 800 will only be $2500, that's pretty good value to me and will be my first PB purchase. I had your same position with my G4 450, I was waiting for the G5 because i thought it would carry me for a while. Well, I couldn't wait and got the dual gig. This machine can carry me quite a while as it's pretty damn fast. When the 970 comes out I'll put my dual gig on ebay and upgrade.

You do what you think is best I guess, but I don't agree that $2500 for a 667 is a slap in the face.

[john123]

Originally posted by gopher
Very interesting link to the Dell site about that notebook, and guess what...you have to choose one of those three internet options...there is no choice when it comes to buying a Dell. You either buy 6 months of internet service with one of 3 major carriers or you can't buy it at all. Very funny.

"Internet/Networking Options
Internet Access Options Learn More
6 Months of MSN Internet Access Included
6 Months of America Online Membership Included
6 Months of Earthlink Internet Access"

So you add yet another $120 to the price.

I think I'll choose my own ISP thank you.
---------
PCs force you to opt-out....Macs allow you to opt-in whatever you choose. Just like spam. We don't want force feeding of ANY kind thank you very much!

Hahaha! Hey Gopher, hate to break it to you, but you aren't "getting" it. Those things are free. You are not obligated to take any of them. There is no force-feeding, and the price you pay up front for the computer is all you pay. If you WANT those 6 months of internet service, they are FREE (hence the word "included"). There's no addition of $120, or even one penny, to the price.

So thank you for pointing out yet ANOTHER advantage of buying a Dell. With Macs, you must opt-in -- and pay-in -- for your ISP for your first 6 months.

[rice_web]

For high-end laptops, I'd go with a Dell laptop most any day of the week. Only in the low-end would I consider an Apple product: the iBook. The iBook is possibly Apple's best priced computer they've ever released, but it now needs an updated graphics card to fully support Quartz Extreme.

[Megaquad]

Originally posted by gopher


Apple's high end notebooks base price are only $3200...it is only if you add things like an extra display, Apple's overpriced RAM because of their contract with the RAM supplier, and a 60 GB hard drive that you start adding up to $4500. Don't panic! Unless you are talking Canadian or Australian dollars. Those numbers are higher even though they often work out about the same.

And if you are a student, teacher, government employee, or military person, you get a discount.
In Europe, Powerbook costs 4500$, 17" iMac costs 2800$ etc.

[Mirage_]

Originally posted by vollspacken
...aaaargh!!!

NO radeon 9000???
NO faster system bus???
:mad:

so, what else will justify the price increase that will surely occure???

...equals: NO money from me!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: man, calm down. its some random guy speculating on what he thinks may happen. hehe

[octomon]

The Perfect PowerBook...

Looks, feels, and holds up EXACTLY like my old Pismo 500 , with a SuperDrive [Removeable, of course], 167mhz system bus and a 1 Gig G4 Processor.

My TiBook gives me a cramp, and if the wind blows too hard the damn thing get's a scratch.

Can't wait for a NEW design - how about a NEOPRENE casing??? :D

[Arcady]

Originally posted by yzedf
this is pretty discouraging (http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.asp?customer_id=19&keycode=6V017&order_code=8two8&cfgpg=1#updatepriceNS) when you look at what else is on the market now.

P4 2.2 GHz
1GB DDR RAM
Radeon 9000
1600x1200
2 optical drives or 2nd battery/hdd

Granted the sex appeal of the hardware and the OS isn't there, but this is a better machine than the 2 yr old server at my work!

Apple needs to wake up and compete if they really want people to 'switch'

P4 2.2GHz. On AC power. What do you get on battery? And how long does it last? PowerBooks run the same speed all the time, and far longer. Plus they weigh less and look better. Win laptops run half speed on battery and still only go a couple hourse. Good luck watching a single movie on DVD.

A Windows laptop is a like a fat person. Eats a lot and goes slower when you ask it to move, and doesn't get much done.

A PowerBook is thin, light, does everything you ask it to do whether it is at home or on the road, and looks beautiful the whole time.

One day people will understand this concept. Until then, get your PowerBooks while you can.

[Mirage_]

Originally posted by john123


Hahaha! Hey Gopher, hate to break it to you, but you aren't "getting" it. Those things are free. You are not obligated to take any of them. There is no force-feeding, and the price you pay up front for the computer is all you pay. If you WANT those 6 months of internet service, they are FREE (hence the word "included"). There's no addition of $120, or even one penny, to the price.

So thank you for pointing out yet ANOTHER advantage of buying a Dell. With Macs, you must opt-in -- and pay-in -- for your ISP for your first 6 months. Your post is offtopic. While its doubtful that the cost to dell is 120$, it's still in there. Its a marketing ploy/deal between Dell and the ISP's. Dell *says* they are giving away 6 months of ____ ISP's service. Dell gets a discount from ISP. Said ISP gets more subscribers by being associated with Dell. I don't see 6 months of MSN, AOL, or Earthlink as an advantage...lol...I've never used MSN, but AOL and Earthlink suck.

A 933mhz G4 powerbook would be pretty quick, I'd like to see them update the graphics card, but its all really speculation until apple releases info. I won't be in the laptop market for at least another year or two, I've got my Pismo / New Dual 1ghz. Built in bluetooth would be cool, although I haven't seen to many bluetooth gadgets, just pda-phone stuff. I imagine that with Apple pushing it, there will be some nice developments soon ;) I like the TiBook's casing...SuperDrives would be cool in the PowerBook, but I haven't really used mine to burn DVD's yet. I'd rather have a fast CD-RW in my PowerBook.

[gopher]

Originally posted by john123


Hahaha! Hey Gopher, hate to break it to you, but you aren't "getting" it. Those things are free. You are not obligated to take any of them. There is no force-feeding, and the price you pay up front for the computer is all you pay. If you WANT those 6 months of internet service, they are FREE (hence the word "included"). There's no addition of $120, or even one penny, to the price.

So thank you for pointing out yet ANOTHER advantage of buying a Dell. With Macs, you must opt-in -- and pay-in -- for your ISP for your first 6 months.

It is force feeding...because once they sign you on, they have your credit card number, and cancelling accounts are difficult. These so called free internet accounts end up costing more than they are worth. The only reason I use Earthlink now, is because they are the cheapest in high speed internet access in my area. I wouldn't have gone with them for dialup though. It is called bait and switch. And yes I'm aware .Mac did that, but at least Apple didn't ask for my credit card number when I signed up for iTools originally. If that page showed me I could select not to receive any of the trial internet services, then I wouldn't complain about that...and anyway the Dell machines have less battery life, and more often than not heavier to obtain all the features they want to add. The TiBook is an excellent value for all the stuff they put in a 5.2 lbs notebook. 5 hours of battery, gigabit ethernet, digital video second display support for extended desktop, S-Video out, SVGA adapter for VGA displays, combo drive. And whether you like it or not, being able to at the present time do 8 billion floating point calculations a second is faster than any PC notebook on the market. If your Mac notebook is slow, you have done something to slow it down, like run Norton Utilities or add some startup item like SETI@home which really runs best using the SETI dockling and Darwin version of SETI.

[TopGear]

In Europe, Powerbook costs 4500$, 17" iMac costs 2800$ etc.

In Eastern Europe, a 12" iBook 700 mhz costs about $2450, including sales tax. Even without taxes, it's still around $1850, vs. $1500 in the US.

Apple will never increase their market share over here at these prices. Never.

[gopher]

Originally posted by TopGear


In Eastern Europe, a 12" iBook 700 mhz costs about $2450, including sales tax. Even without taxes, it's still around $1850, vs. $1500 in the US.

Apple will never increase their market share over here at these prices. Never.

The problem is taxes on foreign goods...write your governments to reduce taxes on Macs.

[tgrundke]

Originally posted by Kid Red


So your 400 has gotten you 3 years of use but a 800 at twice the speed wont? I understand maybe finacially you can't swing the money, but that doesn't seem to deminish the value of the 800. Come next week, the 800 will only be $2500, that's pretty good value to me and will be my first PB purchase. I had your same position with my G4 450, I was waiting for the G5 because i thought it would carry me for a while. Well, I couldn't wait and got the dual gig. This machine can carry me quite a while as it's pretty damn fast. When the 970 comes out I'll put my dual gig on ebay and upgrade.

You do what you think is best I guess, but I don't agree that $2500 for a 667 is a slap in the face.

Kid:

You are correct about your above assumption, but the problem is that I cannot justify spending $3299 to double the performance coming from a 400mhz machine. As I said, for those who need every ounce of power available, both options may be a good move. But for the majority of us, the prices being asked by Apple are simply ridiculous for the performance being rendered.

And yes, this is a bit 'whiny' of me, but I don't get too thrilled at the idea of shelling out another $2499 for an 800mhz machine. Come to think of it, that looks to be the big problem I think a lot of people have-it may be just perception, but many people look at the performance ratings ('megahertz myth' aside) and think, "good god-they want me to pay $xxxx for xxx mhz? screw that!"

And I will also go on the European pricing bandwagon here: it is simply RIDICULOUS. Granted, most of the error is due to the VAT tax, but Apple's pricing scheme is taking its toll. Last quarter, only 35% (?) of sales came from overseas. I remember less than 10 years ago when the sales mix was often 51% overseas to 48% domestic...sigh.

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by arn


I love how people always come up with super-broad generalizations about Apple...

This is not true, and there is no reason for this to be true. There is no magic formula to Apple's upgrades.

You want an example? The last PowerMac upgrades, perhaps?

arn

I would never argue with a god . . .

But in the limited context of powerbooks it is true more often than not.

May lightning strike someone else!

Rocketman

http://v-serv.com/-upload/avatar.jpg

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by Arcady


A PowerBook is thin, light, does everything you ask it to do whether it is at home or on the road, and looks beautiful the whole time.


I have yet to meet a single powerbook user (owner or not) that did not have positive things to say about the experience of actually using it. And more often than not, noted they could do MORE than they expected and experienced NO issues of speed related to processor numbers.

I have yet to meet a single wintel user who is generally satisfied with the user experience or, does not have war stories of trying to do things Apple users take for granted.

This message may never successfully be communicated to the masses by Apple (they have failed so far), but for those tiny 3% of users who break down and pay 15% more for a powerbook than the top of the like Dell laptop, they will simply be happier and more productive.

Let's keep our little secret, eh?

Rocketman

[wdlove]

Was glad to hear that Steve put off the introduction of new iBook & PowerBook till Nov. 6th. Coverage would have suffered!

[flanders]

I gotta chime in here...as a long time apple (and specifically tibook user--I've had the 500, 667 and 800) I've got to say that I've just decided that the cost is WAY to high for what you're getting. I've just sold my last tibook and just received my new thinkpad 1.8Ghz A31 for less than $2300. And it's quite a bit faster than even my Dual 1Ghz desktop.

Now I really love Apple, and as a professional software developer (carbon, webobjects and cocoa) I certainly enjoy the hardware design and OS. They're fabulous. But--in my world paying customers use Sun/Intel servers and PCs for the desktops. They go with what works and won't break the bank.

To agree with a previous poster, I do think it's time to give apple some space and see what they can do within the next year. OSX is great, but I don't see them focusing on any enterprise sales, or decreasing cost to entry for budding developers or casual users(yes $3500 for an 800Mhz machine is far too much even for seasoned apple users with good paying jobs.)

If you ask me, this is _exactly_ the situation NeXT had before they went software only. Machines were far too expensive, and all they had to offer was superior software with no incentives for anyone. We all know how this story went, and I for one was burned then and don't want to get burned this time.

So, Apple, if you're listening...my 5 steps to market domination:

1. Drop the prices
2. Increase the speeds
3. Create incentives to move machines to corporate server rooms and desktops...Hint: Software alone won't do this.
4. Stop focusing on new home movie and mp3 gadgets and get us some software we can use to make $money$ with. Consultants recommend what they can use (Another hint: you already own WEBOBJECTS which IS GOOD ENTERPRISE SOFTWARE AND IS BEING USED BY SOME VERY LARGE ORGANIZATIONS, how about some marketing, support and decent pricing for large orders and licenses?)
5. STOP THE RUMOR PROBLEM, start giving us a road map so we (and our customers) can see where they're going!!!!!

Okay, I'm out of breath now so I'll stop ranting. I still have my DP1000, but how long is anyone's guess.

[kfury]

Originally posted by flanders
I gotta chime in here...as a long time apple (and specifically tibook user--I've had the 500, 667 and 800) I've got to say that I've just decided that the cost is WAY to high for what you're getting. I've just sold my last tibook and just received my new thinkpad 1.8Ghz A31 for less than $2300.

You've gone through three TiBooks to stay on the bleeding edge, and you've 'just decided' that the cost is way too high? You'd find that you'd save an incredible amount of money if you bought every other PB rev, instead of plunking down $2-3K every year. How much are you losing each time you sell one of your Tibooks?

It's a shame that the people you work with use Wintex boxes. I work in a mixed environment where there's no usability penalty for Mac owners. I consider myself lucky in that regard.

Kevin Fox
Me, me, me: http://fury.com

[kfury]

Originally posted by flanders
OSX is great, but I don't see them focusing on any enterprise sales, or decreasing cost to entry for budding developers or casual users(yes $3500 for an 800Mhz machine is far too much even for seasoned apple users with good paying jobs.)

(resisting a comment about casual developers picking up one of your many used TiBooks on the cheap)

It's a pretty crappy example to pick the most expensive machine Apple sells and label it as the entry cost for a casual developer. You can get a new mac for under a thousand dollars, and come next week you'll be able to get a new iBook (700Mhz, even) for under a grand, even less for students, teachers, and developers.

As for reaching out to the enterprise, Apple tripled their server sales in the last quarter. In the face of Xserve, how can you say Apple is not focusing on the enterprise? Moving OS X is all about the enterprise, expanding the OS's capability to handle enterprise-level tasks and coordination, and leverage off existing enterprise-level Unix tools.

I can't decide whether you're intentionally shoveling FUD or if you simply don't know any better...

Kevin Fox
Me, me, me! http://fury.com

[boo-bear]

flanders

I gotta chime in here...as a long time apple (and specifically tibook user--I've had the 500, 667 and 800) I've got to say that I've just decided that the cost is WAY to high for what you're getting. I've just sold my last tibook and just received my new thinkpad 1.8Ghz A31 for less than $2300. And it's quite a bit faster than even my Dual 1Ghz desktop.
So, Apple, if you're listening...my 5 steps to market domination:

1. Drop the prices
2. Increase the speeds
3. Create incentives to move machines to corporate server rooms and desktops...Hint: Software alone won't do this.
4. Stop focusing on new home movie and mp3 gadgets and get us some software we can use to make $money$ with. Consultants recommend what they can use (Another hint: you already own WEBOBJECTS which IS GOOD ENTERPRISE SOFTWARE AND IS BEING USED BY SOME VERY LARGE ORGANIZATIONS, how about some marketing, support and decent pricing for large orders and licenses?)
5. STOP THE RUMOR PROBLEM, start giving us a road map so we (and our customers) can see where they're going!!!!!


Ok, first of all I'm sure there are other posts that will reply to this better than I will. So, your new thinkpad is faster at what? 1. If you look at the link on the front page to Think Secret they are hinting at a $200 price drop across the line on iBooks. 2. They are increasing the speeds, but at the same time making sure that they can give battery life that is worth the computer being portable. 3. Have you looked at XServer? Read any reviews by national magazines about how it works, and how successful it would be in the enterprise? 4. The software is out there, and as a software developer yourself, you should understand the hours involved in writing major software like that. You can't afford to just give that away, and I know of no other computer company on the planet that is aggressively looking for good software companies and bringing them into the fold to provide software that will support what they are building that well. 5. There will always be rumors no matter who, what, or when any company does something.

BTW, as others have alluded to in other posts, how many hours of battery use do you have with your thinkpad, and how quick is it when running only on battery power? Just some thoughts that I have.

[flanders]

kfury,
you are lucky! I've been waiting for years to find a mixed environment. I can't tell you how many times I've pitched an Xserve or iMacs on the desk. I see it in some film companies and of course print pre-press but never in plain old corporate america.

It is a shame, because the macs really are a better place to be.

Oh, and I do like to be on the cutting edge...but not as bad as it looks. One powerbook (the 500) was replaced by a client who sent it crashing to a concrete floor sending me a new 667 in return, and the 800 was bought after giving my almost new 667 to another employee at my firm. Sometimes it's good to be in the right place at the right time ;-)

[gopher]

Originally posted by flanders
I gotta chime in here...as a long time apple (and specifically tibook user--I've had the 500, 667 and 800) I've got to say that I've just decided that the cost is WAY to high for what you're getting. I've just sold my last tibook and just received my new thinkpad 1.8Ghz A31 for less than $2300. And it's quite a bit faster than even my Dual 1Ghz desktop.

Now I really love Apple, and as a professional software developer (carbon, webobjects and cocoa) I certainly enjoy the hardware design and OS. They're fabulous. But--in my world paying customers use Sun/Intel servers and PCs for the desktops. They go with what works and won't break the bank.

To agree with a previous poster, I do think it's time to give apple some space and see what they can do within the next year. OSX is great, but I don't see them focusing on any enterprise sales, or decreasing cost to entry for budding developers or casual users(yes $3500 for an 800Mhz machine is far too much even for seasoned apple users with good paying jobs.)

If you ask me, this is _exactly_ the situation NeXT had before they went software only. Machines were far too expensive, and all they had to offer was superior software with no incentives for anyone. We all know how this story went, and I for one was burned then and don't want to get burned this time.

So, Apple, if you're listening...my 5 steps to market domination:

1. Drop the prices
2. Increase the speeds
3. Create incentives to move machines to corporate server rooms and desktops...Hint: Software alone won't do this.
4. Stop focusing on new home movie and mp3 gadgets and get us some software we can use to make $money$ with. Consultants recommend what they can use (Another hint: you already own WEBOBJECTS which IS GOOD ENTERPRISE SOFTWARE AND IS BEING USED BY SOME VERY LARGE ORGANIZATIONS, how about some marketing, support and decent pricing for large orders and licenses?)
5. STOP THE RUMOR PROBLEM, start giving us a road map so we (and our customers) can see where they're going!!!!!

Okay, I'm out of breath now so I'll stop ranting. I still have my DP1000, but how long is anyone's guess.

Unfortunately Apple does not read these boards...if you want to get to someone at Apple who actually listens, speak to customer relations through 1-800-APLCARE. They will take down your notes.

[john123]

Originally posted by Mirage_
Your post is offtopic. While its doubtful that the cost to dell is 120$, it's still in there. Its a marketing ploy/deal between Dell and the ISP's. Dell *says* they are giving away 6 months of ____ ISP's service. Dell gets a discount from ISP. Said ISP gets more subscribers by being associated with Dell. I don't see 6 months of MSN, AOL, or Earthlink as an advantage...lol...I've never used MSN, but AOL and Earthlink suck.

A 933mhz G4 powerbook would be pretty quick, I'd like to see them update the graphics card, but its all really speculation until apple releases info. I won't be in the laptop market for at least another year or two, I've got my Pismo / New Dual 1ghz. Built in bluetooth would be cool, although I haven't seen to many bluetooth gadgets, just pda-phone stuff. I imagine that with Apple pushing it, there will be some nice developments soon ;) I like the TiBook's casing...SuperDrives would be cool in the PowerBook, but I haven't really used mine to burn DVD's yet. I'd rather have a fast CD-RW in my PowerBook.


Mirage,

So what if the $120 is "in there"? The bottom line cost on the Dell is still LESS than the Apple. If it's "included" in the price, that's no skin off your nose…it's no different than the iApps which are "in there" for Macs.

[john123]

Originally posted by gopher


It is force feeding...because once they sign you on, they have your credit card number, and cancelling accounts are difficult. These so called free internet accounts end up costing more than they are worth. The only reason I use Earthlink now, is because they are the cheapest in high speed internet access in my area. I wouldn't have gone with them for dialup though. It is called bait and switch. And yes I'm aware .Mac did that, but at least Apple didn't ask for my credit card number when I signed up for iTools originally. If that page showed me I could select not to receive any of the trial internet services, then I wouldn't complain about that...and anyway the Dell machines have less battery life, and more often than not heavier to obtain all the features they want to add. The TiBook is an excellent value for all the stuff they put in a 5.2 lbs notebook. 5 hours of battery, gigabit ethernet, digital video second display support for extended desktop, S-Video out, SVGA adapter for VGA displays, combo drive. And whether you like it or not, being able to at the present time do 8 billion floating point calculations a second is faster than any PC notebook on the market. If your Mac notebook is slow, you have done something to slow it down, like run Norton Utilities or add some startup item like SETI@home which really runs best using the SETI dockling and Darwin version of SETI.


Gopher, you still don't get it. YOU ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO SIGN UP FOR ANY OF THOSE ISP'S…IT IS SIMPLY PROVIDED TO YOU FREE FOR SIX MONTHS SHOULD YOU CHOOSE TO WANT ONE OF THOSE ISPs. You still have to go through ALL the usual steps to sign up for one of those ISPs that you would with a Mac or any other computer…the only difference is you don't PAY for the first six months.

Ultimately, the only real criticism you could POSSIBLY have is that by offering these services for free for six months, dumb and unsuspecting consumers are lured to "bad" ISPs. This would be a pretty dumb argument, since you'd be blaming customers for not being informed regarding the "other" ISPs out there. If a customer is that uninformed, they have no business getting a DSL or cable connection anyway. AOL will provide them with a fine - and free - starter package.

[gopher]

Originally posted by john123



Gopher, you still don't get it. YOU ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO SIGN UP FOR ANY OF THOSE ISP'S…IT IS SIMPLY PROVIDED TO YOU FREE FOR SIX MONTHS SHOULD YOU CHOOSE TO WANT ONE OF THOSE ISPs. You still have to go through ALL the usual steps to sign up for one of those ISPs that you would with a Mac or any other computer…the only difference is you don't PAY for the first six months.

Ultimately, the only real criticism you could POSSIBLY have is that by offering these services for free for six months, dumb and unsuspecting consumers are lured to "bad" ISPs. This would be a pretty dumb argument, since you'd be blaming customers for not being informed regarding the "other" ISPs out there. If a customer is that uninformed, they have no business getting a DSL or cable connection anyway. AOL will provide them with a fine - and free - starter package.

God, you shout too much. "should you choose you want one of those ISPs?" My point is the page says you have to choose from those 3 ISPs. I don't see a fourth option "Other." Free or not, it already requires you to sign up for one of those services for 6 months. That is not freedom. I don't want a computer company to tell me who I should sign up for. When I go to a store, and it tells me, pick from one of these 3 services, and doesn't allow me to pick none, it would appear I'm obligated to go after those services. Regardless of whether it is free, it still limits my choice...if I could sign up with no service offered on that page I would. But I can't.
That's my point.

[john123]

Originally posted by gopher


God, you shout too much. "should you choose you want one of those ISPs?" My point is the page says you have to choose from those 3 ISPs. I don't see a fourth option "Other." Free or not, it already requires you to sign up for one of those services for 6 months. That is not freedom. I don't want a computer company to tell me who I should sign up for. When I go to a store, and it tells me, pick from one of these 3 services, and doesn't allow me to pick none, it would appear I'm obligated to go after those services. Regardless of whether it is free, it still limits my choice...if I could sign up with no service offered on that page I would. But I can't.
That's my point.

Man, you still don't get it. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SIGN UP WITH ANY SERVICE, PERIOD. You are not "required" to do any of it. Just think about it -- how could they possibly enforce that logistically?

All they do is OFFER you any of those services for free for 6 months if you WANT them. The "fourth option" that you "don't see" is simply not to sign up. I've taken this "fourth option" on tons of Dells that I have purchased.

I have no clue where in the world you got the idea that you had to sign up for one of them. Just go read the print, dude.

[kfury]

Originally posted by john123
All they do is OFFER you any of those services for free for 6 months if you WANT them. The "fourth option" that you "don't see" is simply not to sign up.

The question that none of us are in a position to answer, and is why you guys are shouting at each other, is whether Dell pays any money at all to these ISPs if you do sign up, or if Dell gets any money back from the ISPs if you *do* sign up.

If the first is true then a machine with 'no ISP' selected (either by a nonexistant radio button, or by not following trhough with signup) costs Dell less, and since they're not passing that savings on to you, it means the ISP fee is built into the price, and you're paying a markup whether you take advantage of it or not, so it's not really free.

If the second is true, and Dell has a profit-sharing arrangement with these ISPs, such that Dell gets say 20% of the monthly fees you pay Earthlink after the 6 months are up, then the fact that they *seem to* rope you into one of their ISP partners, actually brings Dell prices DOWN, because they're making money off every person who DOES sign up. Therefore by not signing up you're getting the advantage of a cheaper box, because the prices are already lowered in anticipation of the revenue-share money Dell expects from your long-term deal with the ISP.

Anyone know how I can get one of those analyst jobs? This stuff really isn't so hard to grasp.

Kevin Fox
Me, me, me! http://fury.com

[gopher]

Originally posted by kfury


The question that none of us are in a position to answer, and is why you guys are shouting at each other, is whether Dell pays any money at all to these ISPs if you do sign up, or if Dell gets any money back from the ISPs if you *do* sign up.

If the first is true then a machine with 'no ISP' selected (either by a nonexistant radio button, or by not following trhough with signup) costs Dell less, and since they're not passing that savings on to you, it means the ISP fee is built into the price, and you're paying a markup whether you take advantage of it or not, so it's not really free.

If the second is true, and Dell has a profit-sharing arrangement with these ISPs, such that Dell gets say 20% of the monthly fees you pay Earthlink after the 6 months are up, then the fact that they *seem to* rope you into one of their ISP partners, actually brings Dell prices DOWN, because they're making money off every person who DOES sign up. Therefore by not signing up you're getting the advantage of a cheaper box, because the prices are already lowered in anticipation of the revenue-share money Dell expects from your long-term deal with the ISP.

Anyone know how I can get one of those analyst jobs? This stuff really isn't so hard to grasp.

Kevin Fox
Me, me, me! http://fury.com

Well perhaps you want to work for the CIO office of a major government firm....they need your kind of clear thinking. Both possibilities are disgusting.

I agree with you it is one big marketing gimick. And the fact there is no "Other" radio button makes me suspect one of the two things you said is true.

[john123]

Kfury:

If the first condition is true, and you do "pay a markup," my contention throughout my last few posts is: who cares? It's still cheaper, even after this added cost, than the Mac.

Not to be a jerk, but there's a long way to go between typing out elementary logic and getting an analyst job. Good, high-powered (and high-paid) analysis these days relies on some pretty sophisticated econometric (this is not economic misspelled, FYI) modeling. That entails some fairly rigorous mathetmatical training that is blended with theory. That old math stuff you might have learned in college -- partial derivatives and Lagrange multipliers and such -- applies here.

Now, back to topic: let's say ThinkSecret is right and we don't see SuperDrives on the 6th. Anyone think they might come in a shadow revision, much like combo drives did about a year ago?

[kfury]

Originally posted by john123
If the first condition is true, and you do "pay a markup," my contention throughout my last few posts is: who cares? It's still cheaper, even after this added cost, than the Mac.I don't believe the subject came up so much as a statement that macs are cheaper than Dells, but that a user was frustrated that they were forced to 'choose the lesser evil' even if they knew they could most likely disregard that selection later. This kind of commitment, even if the consumer believes it to be an empty one, is taken seriously by people about to spend more money on a single online transaction than they ever have before.
Not to be a jerk, but there's a long way to go between typing out elementary logic and getting an analyst job. Good, high-powered (and high-paid) analysis these days relies on some pretty sophisticated econometric (this is not economic misspelled, FYI) modeling. That entails some fairly rigorous mathetmatical training that is blended with theory. That old math stuff you might have learned in college -- partial derivatives and Lagrange multipliers and such -- applies here.No jerkiness taken; of course I was joking. My area of expertise is human-computer interaction, not market analysis. Right now I'm finishing my masters at Carnegie Mellon, and before that I was designing interfaces at Yahoo. Even though we use a lot of the same math when doing ethnographic and psychographic analyses, I would no more purport to be capable of doing an industry analyst's job than I would expect someone from wall street to perform a contextual inquiry, cognitive walkthrough, or GOMS model.
Now, back to topic: let's say ThinkSecret is right and we don't see SuperDrives on the 6th. Anyone think they might come in a shadow revision, much like combo drives did about a year ago? That's a very good question. Apple's coming out with actual significant changes to the portable line in January, but those changes will likely augment the current TiBook form factor, not replace it. As an Apple exec has publicly stated, there will certainly be SuperTiBooks once the parts are available. It seems likely that they'd do a 'drive-bump' rev if the alternative was waiting for the next speedbump. I think they'd be more vocal about it than they were with the combo drives though. This is bigger news and (if this thread is any indication) one that a fair number of users care about, since the drive is supported by various iApps, as I believe the combo drive was not, when it was dropped in (correct me if I'm wrong, but iTunes burning and finder disc burning came after combo drives were in TiBooks?). I'm betting it's a 'drop-in' feature they'll bring up at MWSF, amidst the bigger news.

Kevin Fox
Me, me, me! http://fury.com

[Thirteenva]

just to much complaining...

Look, if you feel wintel is cheaper, faster, better, or whatever then go buy one. Sh%t or get off the pot. I personally am tired of hearing about it. If you do not want to pay for a mac, then don't. If you want something faster than a mac, then go find one.

Same stuff day in and day out. I think that macs are a little more expensive, and i am on a very tight budget BUT, if i was shopping for another computer, I'd still buy a mac. Its worth more to me and i'll pay more to have it.

When a company can survive for years on 5% of the market while selling "overpriced" products, they must be doing something right because the ONLY way to survive on so little market share is through repeat business.

[shadowfax]

i agree. when apple "overpirces," it's not like you can't go get something else easily, and fit in with 95% of the rest of the computer world. it's not like M$, where you get crap and still have to pay more. and it's not all apple's fault that they are behind. i would venture to blame those such as motorola and ATI... especially ATI for holding back on the 9700. it's things like that that disadvantage apple, and it's still worth it, IMO, because intel and M$ are quickly starting to seem very full of themselves, which causes many evils in corporations. am i the only one who thinks that the recent abortive switch ad, among other things, is rather enronesque? there is just as little corporate honesty at M$ as there. would you really tie yourself to a company like that just to save money?

[Dee]

Yup - seems macuser.co.uk has it mostly right. Have a friend at a big authorised UK Apple dealer and they say the new Powerbook is 933 Mhz, no superdrive (something to do with Panasonic but can't remember the facts he said), in built bluetooth. No 1 Ghz chips due to heat problems (and powerbooks get hot enough as it is!) They also said the 667 and 800 Mhz were to be discontinued.

How true this all is not sure but they seem to have a fair few of the specs.

With a shortage of Powerbooks (it can take 5 weeks to get one in the UK) they have to release an updated powerbook before Christmas. It's just a pity that they may release a new Powerbook in the new year. Wouldn't it be great to be able to upgrade your newly acquired computer if you only just bought it before a complete overhaul (like as in software updates). Oh well.

D.

[Kid Red]

And all of this dell **** has what exactly to do with Apple and PB rumors? Damn PC users hijacking a decent thread.

[bkassing]

"And all of this dell **** has what exactly to do with Apple and PB rumors? Damn PC users hijacking a decent thread."

For those of you morons who think that the only problems with PBs are with Apple, it is sometimes good to know that it is a industry problem and not an Apple problem. Because for the most part we have a bunch of whiney apple zealots who refuse to believe that 95% uses a PC and PC is kicking the PB's ass when it comes to features, pricing and performance.

So for somebody like me who has a laptop for work and a MAC at home who is DYING to buy a powerbook, I find it amusing of all the morons who seem to think that everything is an Apple problem.

Which then of course leads us to new features as in if a PC company can do XXX why can't Apple give us XXX as well if there are going to charge way more than a PC company. Why shouldn't MAC video be faster than a pc? It's a "digital hub" after all. Same for processor? These are legitimate beefs. The fact that a powerbook is HOT isn't because it's Apple's problem it is everyone's problem.

So why talk about PC's? Who's leading here? The PC industry or Apple? With this upgrade, we'll see. Right now, Apple is behind.