iBook Radeon 9550 and CoreImage

[finalcoolman]

So, with lots of conflicting evidence and no definative answers, what is everyone take on if Core Image is supported by the new iBooks' ATI Radeon 9550? I sure as hell want it to be but at the same time I'm not too sure. Also we don't really have Apple stores in Canada so I can't just go to a store and test it because the resellers over here take at least two weeks to get new models in. So, if anyone who is lucky enough to have an Apple Store nearby please test it out with the ripple effect to see if it does indeed support core image. Thanks,

P.S. As you can see I was right about everything I stated, new iBooks today guaranteed with built in Bluetooth and a 3-5 business day ship time :p

[MalcolmR]

So, with lots of conflicting evidence and no definative answers, what is everyone take on if Core Image is supported by the new iBooks' ATI Radeon 9550?

Well, of course, it is supported, but I guess you meant whether Core Image will use the GPU or not. I think it will - someone pointed to an ATI page earlier as evidence that the 9550 was ARB-capable (which Apple's TechNote indicates is the key to Core Image-on-GPU).

Whether that means that you get that all-important ripple effect in Dashboard, I've no idea. It all depends on what criteria Apple used to switch it on or off: Core Image execution location, or laptop model (or something else).

(In theory, it might only be switched on if you've actually got a PowerBook, for example. Time will tell).

[Gmac07]

im sorry but im still new to macs, what exactly is so important about core image and "the ripple effect"???

[ITASOR]

im sorry but im still new to macs, what exactly is so important about core image and "the ripple effect"???

I'll let someone else answer the importance part. But I think the dashboard ripple is a gimick, unnecessary, and stupid.

[witness]

im sorry but im still new to macs, what exactly is so important about core image and "the ripple effect"???
The basic advantage is that processing of cool effects (like animated ripples) is offloaded from the processor to the graphics card, leaving the processor free to do other things, and therefore giving you a faster Mac that looks even better.

[MalcolmR]

im sorry but im still new to macs, what exactly is so important about core image and "the ripple effect"???

Core Image is an important part of the Mac OS X platform that allows applications to produce on-screen effects using programmable video cards. It's important because it provides an abstraction that means you don't have to worry about the lower-level graphics-card API, and so it opens up a lot of the functionality to application writers.

One obvious use of Core Image is in the Dashboard, where new widgets dropped (or moved) on the Dashboard cause a 'ripple' effect to appear (visible in the WWDC keynote, or the Dashboard movie on Apple's site).

Core Image is supported on all modern hardware, but on some machines, the CPU is actually more powerful than the graphics processor. On those machines, the effects are handles by the onboard CPU. Just to confuse everyone, the highly-visible Dashboard 'ripple' effect is switched off on such machines, leading to the (incorrect) belief that Core Image 'isn't supported', whereas it's really just the Dashboard ripple that's not supported.

The new iBooks appear to have an ARB-compliant graphics card, which means that they will now run Core Image transformations on the GPU, offloading the work from the CPU. It remains to be seen whether the new iBooks will also support the Dashboard ripple...

[alexeismertin]

I'll let someone else answer the importance part. But I think the dashboard ripple is a gimick, unnecessary, and stupid.

It still remains that the OS has it but the hardware can't handle it!

[TaKashMoney]

I honestly dont know if the ripple will be present or not. The graphics card apparently supports the technology (As posted on ATI's website) yet ThinkSecret claims it does not. I've called two apple stores in my area. They dont have the new iBooks yet and they have no idea what Core Image is. Thanks a ton apple retail.....

[Heb1228]

I'll let someone else answer the importance part. But I think the dashboard ripple is a gimick, unnecessary, and stupid.

That argument can be made against a wide array of OS X's attractive effects and garphics. But these things are one of the (many) reasons I really enjoy using OS X. Like I've said before, if I wanted an ugly screen I'd use Windows.

I'm personally glad Apple's programmers included it instead of just dropping a Widget and nothing happens. Its the little things.... :D

[ITASOR]

That argument can be made against a wide array of OS X's attractive effects and garphics. But these things are one of the (many) reasons I really enjoy using OS X. Like I've said before, if I wanted an ugly screen I'd use Windows.

I'm personally glad Apple's programmers included it instead of just dropping a Widget and nothing happens. Its the little things.... :D

I love OS X's effects. Love 'em. But they make a big deal of this ripple which you hardly ever even see. How often do you drag a widget out? I did it the first week I got Tiger and now I just use those widgets...

[Heb1228]

I love OS X's effects. Love 'em. But they make a big deal of this ripple which you hardly ever even see. How often do you drag a widget out? I did it the first week I got Tiger and now I just use those widgets...

Point taken, it doesn't happen that often. :D Its really good for showing off to friends though

[ITASOR]

Point taken, it doesn't happen that often. :D Its really good for showing off to friends though

Yeah, it's great for showing off to PC users!

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

As I said in the New iBooks thread: There's no mention of Core Image on the new iBooks Graphics page (http://www.apple.com/ibook/graphics.html). Which is pretty worrying... :(

[Heb1228]

As I said in the New iBooks thread: There's no mention of Core Image on the new iBooks Graphics page (http://www.apple.com/ibook/graphics.html). Which is pretty worrying... :(

I think thats because its mainly a software thing in OS X and not a hardware thing.

[lpshean]

Yeah, can someone go down to the Apple store and fiddle with the new iBooks and see whether or not the "ripple-effect" is supported. That'll determine whether the iBooks are indeed Core Image capable or not.

[TaKashMoney]

As I have also posted in another forum, The powerbook graphics page doesnt discuss core image either. ATI says it should support the ripple while thinksecret blatantly claims 32gb is not enough. I have heard that # of GB is not the real determinin factor but I'm not sure if anyone is positive. I have called both Apple stores in the ATlanta area. Neither of them had the new iBooks and neither knew what COre Image was let alone if it was supported or if the ripple would be present. Unfortunately, this question is still very much in the air....I sure can pray though. While pointless I do love my eye candy....

[dcv]

Core Image is supported on all modern hardware, but on some machines, the CPU is actually more powerful than the graphics processor. On those machines, the effects are handles by the onboard CPU. Just to confuse everyone, the highly-visible Dashboard 'ripple' effect is switched off on such machines, leading to the (incorrect) belief that Core Image 'isn't supported', whereas it's really just the Dashboard ripple that's not supported.

The new iBooks appear to have an ARB-compliant graphics card, which means that they will now run Core Image transformations on the GPU, offloading the work from the CPU. It remains to be seen whether the new iBooks will also support the Dashboard ripple...

Actually, according to System Profiler, CoreImage is *not* supported on all hardware. e.g. the iBook models that were available before today's update. I am assuming that today's updated iBooks do support CoreImage.

[drake]

So what you're saying is that Mac's are all show no substance?

[wwooden]

As I have also posted in another forum, The powerbook graphics page doesnt discuss core image either. ATI says it should support the ripple while thinksecret blatantly claims 32gb is not enough. I have heard that # of GB is not the real determinin factor but I'm not sure if anyone is positive. I have called both Apple stores in the ATlanta area. Neither of them had the new iBooks and neither knew what COre Image was let alone if it was supported or if the ripple would be present. Unfortunately, this question is still very much in the air....I sure can pray though. While pointless I do love my eye candy....

It's not dependent on the # of mb's of RAM you have. My 1GHz 12" PB has the ripple effect, and it only has 32mb of RAM.

[finalcoolman]

It's not dependent on the # of mb's of RAM you have. My 1GHz 12" PB has the ripple effect, and it only has 32mb of RAM.

Really? Cool. What model graphics card does it have?

[ITASOR]

Yeah, and like my quicksilver 933mhz has 64MB and no ripple.

[SpaceMagic]

My friend's 12" PowerBook 32mb VRAM Nivida 5200 supports core image.

The new mini's still dont :(

The new iBooks, i think, will... Otherwise why change them? As the ram has stayed the same.

[Lord Blackadder]

IIRC the 9550 (on the PC side anyway) is a de-clocked Radeon 9600-family GPU with a 128bit bus. If that's the case it should have all the functionality of a Radeon 9600 Pro (except with decreased performance), including full Core Image compatibility. That's my guess anyway.

Some Cube users have installed flashed PC Radeon 9550s, so Cube-related forums might have already discussed this issue.

BTW, as somebody else mentioned, the amount of VRAM a video card has means nothing as far as Core image compatibility goes. A GeForce3 with 128MB of RAM is not Core Image compatible, for example.

[Jonnie]

"IIRC the 9550 (on the PC side anyway) is a de-clocked Radeon 9600-family GPU"

Thats correct. So it should support programable shaders like the 9600. And that's required for core image.

Shame they didn't just drop a mobile 9600 64 ram in the ibook.

[MUCKYFINGERS]

taken from Apple.com:

When a programmable GPU is present, Core Image utilizes the graphics card for image processing operations, freeing the CPU for other tasks. And if you have a high-performance card with increased video memory (VRAM), you'll find real-time responsiveness across a wide variety of operations.

Core Image-capable graphics cards include:

* ATI Mobility Radeon 9700
* ATI Radeon 9600, 9600 XT, 9650, 9800 XT, X800 XT
* nVidia GeForce FX Go 5200
* nVidia GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
* nVidia GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL, 6800 GT DDL
---

Looks like it doesn't support it, folks.

[bodeh6]

taken from Apple.com:

When a programmable GPU is present, Core Image utilizes the graphics card for image processing operations, freeing the CPU for other tasks. And if you have a high-performance card with increased video memory (VRAM), you'll find real-time responsiveness across a wide variety of operations.

Core Image-capable graphics cards include:

* ATI Mobility Radeon 9700
* ATI Radeon 9600, 9600 XT, 9650, 9800 XT, X800 XT
* nVidia GeForce FX Go 5200
* nVidia GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
* nVidia GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL, 6800 GT DDL
---

Looks like it doesn't support it, folks.

Give it time. When Tiger first came out, the did not list I believe one of the following as compatible: The Radeon 9600 or NVidia Go 5200. Then they updated a few days after. Just give it a few days. You will see.

[lpshean]

Confirmation that new iBook Radeon 9550 has Tiger Core Image/Video Support - Earlier today I mentioned the new iBook line is using the Radeon 9550 graphics chip and guessed it had Tiger Core Image/Video support (since the desktop 9550 is based on the R3xx/9600 series) but wrote a contact at ATI to verify that (yes it is).
Apple's iBook graphics page mentions quartz extreme support but didn't mention Tiger Core Image/Core Video support.
(For those that missed the posts here earlier this year - although the OS X Tiger page listed a Mobility 9700/Desktop 9600XT or higher was required, the Mobility 9600 and non-XT 9600 also have Core Image/Video support in Tiger.)
Douglas Trachta sent a link to an X-Bit labs article on the desktop Radeon 9550 from a few months ago that might be of interest also. (I hope to have more info on the iBook's 9550 mobility chip/performance soon.)

-----------------------------

Got that from http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/

[Jojitsu]

taken from Apple.com:

When a programmable GPU is present, Core Image utilizes the graphics card for image processing operations, freeing the CPU for other tasks. And if you have a high-performance card with increased video memory (VRAM), you'll find real-time responsiveness across a wide variety of operations.

Core Image-capable graphics cards include:

* ATI Mobility Radeon 9700
* ATI Radeon 9600, 9600 XT, 9650, 9800 XT, X800 XT
* nVidia GeForce FX Go 5200
* nVidia GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
* nVidia GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL, 6800 GT DDL
---

Looks like it doesn't support it, folks.


I've been looking around for the answer to this... and I think Luca from the Think Secret forums explained it quite well:

Taken from there:


Apple's official list is way too short. CoreImage is such that it requires a video card with Pixel Shader 2.0 to work. The Radeon 9550 has this capability. The 9550 is basically the same as the 9600, just clocked a little slower. Since clock speed has nothing at all to do with CoreImage, it will be compatible.

Mobility vs. non-Mobility doesn't matter either. Mobility just means slower (to generate less heat for use in a notebook). ATI cards that include support for the features necessary include these Radeons:

9500
9550
9600
9650
9700
9800
X300
X600
X700
X800
X850

As well as all variants to these... SE, Pro, XT, and Mobility. nVidia cards that should support Core Image include these GeForces:

5200
5500
5600
5700
5800
5900
5950
6200
6600
6800
7800

And all variants of these as well (XT, LE, GT, Ultra, Go).

FYI, Apple also neglects to list the Radeon 9600 Pro and the Mobility Radeon 9600, both of which support Core Image.



Wooo! Core Imaging!

[Lord Blackadder]

The card is supported; besides, like somebody else pointed out, it would be silly for Apple to bump a non-Core Image compatible card up to another non-Core Image compatible card at this juncture.

I expect the next revision of the Mac mini to have a 9550 too. At that point the entire Apple line will be fully Core Image compatible.

32MB of VRAM is a bit scroogy, but even the Radeon 9200 blows away a lot of the crappy integrated chipsets on Wintel motherboards. The 9550 should speed things up noticably.

[bodeh6]

Doesn't the NVidia 5200 Go in the 12" PB even though it supports Core Image rely on the CPU to do the ripple effect? I think this was on the Apple support page but I cannot find it any more. Link?

[ITASOR]

So it definitely 100% supports it? I know there are some people on MR that tried one today at the store, surely they know 100%.

[mjstew33]

I sure hope it does, since i just ordered one!

[uspcommuter]

By any chance does anyone know what resolution the 9550 can support up to on an external screen?

[AcousticDoc]

By any chance does anyone know what resolution the 9550 can support up to on an external screen?

without the hack? 1028

[uspcommuter]

what hack are you talking about acousticdoc...b/c if it can go higher I will definitiely get an ibook

[AcousticDoc]

what hack are you talking about acousticdoc...b/c if it can go higher I will definitiely get an ibook

ibook only supports "mirroring" since the ibook is maxed out at 1028 res the external monitor will mirror that resolution. You need to down load span doctor in order hit the higher resolutions

[Cue]

Adding to the above...
Althought you get different res. in the external monitor, you eventually share the 32Mb of RAM across the 2 monitors, hence 16Mb each.

[Boobs]

macaddict.com confirms that the 9550 does not support core image. It states that a 9560 is required for core image effects. Don't know if it's true or not, but maybe it helps you guys.

[sw1tcher]

macaddict.com confirms that the 9550 does not support core image. It states that a 9560 is required for core image effects. Don't know if it's true or not, but maybe it helps you guys.

Link?

If true, that really is disappointing. Was thinking of getting the 12".

Guess I'll wait until this is confirmed.

[evolutioneight]

Although macaddict claims it doesn't. They don't really show any support for that claim. Aparantly the guy who runs xlr8yourmac emailed ATI and they said that the 9550 DOES support coreimage. I have never heard of this mysterious 9560 that macaddict is talking about.

[Boobs]

yeah, I never heard of it either. just throwing it out there.

[MalcolmR]

Adding to the pointless speculation, a thread (http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=264408) at MacNN confirms that the new iBooks do 'support' Core Image (by which I mean: transformations run on the GPU).

(via daringfireball)

[JFreak]

I have never heard of this mysterious 9560 that macaddict is talking about.

probably a 9650 with a typo ;)

[solvs]

The fact that it has 32MB means nothing, as the 32MB version of the 5200 works. Since it has programable vertex/pixel shader support, it should work fine with the ripple. Plus a guy in another thread said it worked.

[javiercr]

when photoshop supports core image then it will become relevant to me...

[Lord Blackadder]

Plus a guy in another thread said it worked.

LOL, internet news in a nutshell. :D

[TaKashMoney]

GREAT NEWS! Apple just updated their Core Image Webpage. It Clearly states on the right hand side that the ATI Radeon 9550 supports Core Image!! Ripple Effect on new iBooks. Without a doubt! Straight from Apple themselves!
http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/coreimage/

[ITASOR]

GREAT NEWS! Apple just updated their Core Image Webpage. It Clearly states on the right hand side that the ATI Radeon 9550 supports Core Image!! Ripple Effect on new iBooks. Without a doubt! Straight from Apple themselves!
http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/coreimage/

Awesome thanks!

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Excellent news. Thanks TaKashMoney.

Someone in another thread claimed that he could see the ripple effect on his spanking new iBook, but as long as it was just one claiming this I have to admit I was a bit skeptical...

[Lord Blackadder]

Ah, good to see this confirmed...

Also remember that Apple is only including currently sold video cards on the list. Discontinued cards like the desktop version of the Radeon 9700 and all the Radeon 9800 variations are also fully compatible.

[Zman5225]

Hey nice find! Just another reason i'm glad I waited for this revision.


:cool: Z

[Rangerhall6]

Nice, im glad i waited

[csubear]

Doesn't the NVidia 5200 Go in the 12" PB even though it supports Core Image rely on the CPU to do the ripple effect? I think this was on the Apple support page but I cannot find it any more. Link?


Yes, i posted something on that a while ago. The case is that while the 5200 supports core image, all core image work is done in the CPU because the 5200 is much slower than the CPU.

[bodeh6]

GREAT NEWS! Apple just updated their Core Image Webpage. It Clearly states on the right hand side that the ATI Radeon 9550 supports Core Image!! Ripple Effect on new iBooks. Without a doubt! Straight from Apple themselves!
http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/coreimage/

I told everybody that Apple just had to update their webpage to show that the Radeon 9550 in Core Image compatible.