Windows Vista Beta 1 and Tiger

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Macworld.co.uk reports (http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?home&NewsID=12201) on the recently released Windows Vista (formerly known as Longhorn) Beta release.

The beta is being offered to 10,000 technical beta testers at this time, and provides an early preview of the upcoming Microsoft OS - due next year. Previously known as Longhorn, the newest revision of Microsoft's Windows Operating System has seen ongoing delays and the current target ship date is late 2006.

Macworld.co.uk details some of the under-the-hood changes found in the upcoming version of Windows as well as brief comparisons to Tiger.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Those poor Windows users, how will they ever get used to these changes... like: Other fundamentals in Windows Vista will include faster and more secure startup, both during boot-up and when returning to active status from standby mode; improved user-mode (as opposed to kernel mode-based) driver design so that "a printer driver that crashes isn't going to crash the OS as well"
Familiar...? :D

[Brother Michael]

Whatever.

The Windows world has no interest to me anymore. I hope I don't ever have to buy another windows based PC due to software again.

Hopefully with the Intel switch any reason for using windows in terms of applications will be gone as, programmers will no longer need to design them for the PPC chip and the x86 chip.

Hopefully.

[nichos]

I like this quote: " The OS will have a new restart manager "that we think will reduce reboots by 50 per cent," Wilson says."
Here are some screenshots:
http://www.windowsbeta.net/
doesnt look much different than the current OS, but I must say, I'm glad they got rid of the big green start button. The transparencies look nicer too.
You can see the tabs in ie in this picture (http://www.win-vista.net/modules.php?set_albumName=VistaBeta1&id=image004&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php) behind the other window

[Fabio_gsilva]

Windows and MS are always one step behind... well, maybe two... :rolleyes:

[Lucky736]

I kind of like it. Simple and looks nice.

[mowogg]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Macworld.co.uk reports (http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?home&NewsID=12201) on the recently released Windows Vista (formerly known as Longhorn) Beta release.

The beta is being offered to 10,000 technical beta testers at this time, ...

...And leaked to thousands of spyware, virus and trojan horse programers. Windows Vista will be the first OS to come preloaded with viri to keep Symantec and other anti-virus software makers in cash for years to come.

[Sharewaredemon]

Well it seems that the new OS will be more secure, let's hope it is, because it bothers me so much when I see people using Windows based computers and they can barely do anything because of all the problems they have.

[zedwards]

That's it, i'm switching! Just kidding.

[somewhere_here0]

I'm certain it's better than Tiger, but what about Leopard? Will see

[Dunepilot]

I'm certain it's better than Tiger, but what about Leopard? Will see

I'd be very interested to know what your certainty is based on. Practically everything described in the article is a feature we've been enjoying in Mac OS X from the early days.

[budugu]

I'd be very interested to know what your certainty is based on. Practically everything described in the article is a feature we've been enjoying in Mac OS X from the early days.

Mac OS X has a lot of features that are half baked yes including spotlight! At the end of the day if an OS has improved, it has improved. One thing i would like to see is an improved UPnP.

I think once people get the prettier windows, most of the "casual" users will fail to see any reason to switch. Most of the people who buy macs (other than the hardcore mac guys) are people who just want a pretty system not because of any technical superiority (as if they understand and even better because they donot care)!!

[Koree]

I like this quote: " The OS will have a new restart manager "that we think will reduce reboots by 50 per cent," Wilson says."
Here are some screenshots:
http://www.windowsbeta.net/
doesnt look much different than the current OS, but I must say, I'm glad they got rid of the big green start button. The transparencies look nicer too.
You can see the tabs in ie in this picture (http://www.win-vista.net/modules.php?set_albumName=VistaBeta1&id=image004&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php) behind the other window

Im still pondering how this is any differnet then the XP UI... seriously... its not an improvement.

[Toe]

Those poor Windows users, how will they ever get used to these changes... like: ...
Familiar...? :D
Much of the hype around Vista is how it makes it easier to deal with, troubleshoot, or otherwise fight your computer...
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/basics/default.mspx

Compare that to the hype around Tiger, which is mostly about the great new things you can do... very little of which has to do fighting your computer.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/newfeatures/

[age234]

"Vista"? That's pretty bad.

*snicker*

[M@netic]

still doesn't look good to me. Unless they do something about the fonts, windows will always look ugly. The translucency look like they're just there for the sake of being there.

by the way... those blue buttons look awefully familiar...

[stridey]

still doesn't look good to me. Unless they do something about the fonts, windows will always look ugly. The translucency look like they're just there for the sake of being there.

by the way... those blue buttons look awefully familiar...

Also, I'm still curious as to what two windows maximized at once looks like...

[Bear]

This is neither a rumor, nor is it really Mac related.

[mkrishnan]

Mac OS X has a lot of features that are half baked yes including spotlight! At the end of the day if an OS has improved, it has improved. One thing i would like to see is an improved UPnP.

You're definitely right, but how is any of what you're saying not true of Windows XP, or Server 2003, or unlikely to be true of Vista? UPnP as a standard aside, the state of plug-and-play functionality on Macs is much better than it is on Windows -- things like Bonjour allowing printers to be run without setup are pretty much still unheard of on PCs, aren't they? Unless you run Apple Bonjour for Windows, I guess. And PnP on Windows is still terrible.

But I absolutely agree, on an in-principle level, the technology exists today to make it so that a user never has to do a driver config again in their life. And computer makers have not been brave enough to implement that as reality. I'd like to see it happen.

I think Vista will be a very interesting OS, but just because Spotlight is half-baked doesn't mean desktop search on Vista won't be. It's early in the game for that technology.

[cr2sh]

I doubt it'll be too hard to track down a version of this install, I can't wait to get my hands on it.

I wonder if Microsoft Paint is still the same ****** Windows 98 version...

[ebunton]

How could Microsoft decide to use that mundane design for the logo?

It keeps with the tradition and all that... you know, evolving from the xp logo, but still. It's so boring, it's laughable. You'd think they would've come further after all these years.

[BGil]

Much of the hype around Vista is how it makes it easier to deal with, troubleshoot, or otherwise fight your computer...
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/basics/default.mspx

Compare that to the hype around Tiger, which is mostly about the great new things you can do... very little of which has to do fighting your computer.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/newfeatures/

That's because Beta 1 is targeted towards developers and IT professionals. The focus is on the stuff under the hood and deployment.

There's a ton of cool under the hood things but ultimately the end-user features aren't coming until Beta 2.

[emulator]

I think Vista will be a very interesting OS, but just because Spotlight is half-baked doesn't mean desktop search on Vista won't be. It's early in the game for that technology.At list the CUT function in the file system will work in Vista for sure. :)

[deputy_doofy]

I'm certain it's better than Tiger, but what about Leopard? Will see

On what do you base this statement?

[vincebio]

well....ive been a regular watcher of this website for a long time. due to my other interests i have never had the time to get involved in such a vibrant forum.....but i just gotta respond to this one...

w h o c a r e s ?

[srobert]

On what do you base this statement?

Don't worry too much about that post. It's a "1st post" for this user so there always is the possibility that this post was made to provoke some reactions. I'll change my opinion when I see supported constructive criticism from this new user.

[andiwm2003]

.........I think once people get the prettier windows, most of the "casual" users will fail to see any reason to switch. Most of the people who buy macs (other than the hardcore mac guys) are people who just want a pretty system not because of any technical superiority (as if they understand and even better because they donot care)!!


you make a very good point here. os x could really suffer because of a nice design in the new windows. many people buy macs because they look nice (imacs where advertised mainly with their design. the specs alone aren't that superior anyway.).

the same is true for the look and feel of the os. if windows moves from ugly and user unfriendly to acceptable this will hurt apple.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

This is neither a rumor, nor is it really Mac related.The article was from MacWorld and was angled to show similarities between (Hasta la) Vista™ and Tiger...

So, even if saying it's a Mac related news or rumor is stretching it a bit, it has its place... ;)

[Mavimao]

You know, Microsoft kinda reminds me of politicians.

Every election you hear the same things: better health care, improved environment, more jobs! Well...does it ever really happen? No. Just all empty promises.

That's the same with Microsoft. How many times have we read on the back of Windows boxes that cry out: "more secure! faster! user enjoyable!" They seem to write the same crap over and over again and it all seems like bloated propaganda.

I'm not saying that Apple doesn't give its fair share of propaganda, but at least they come up with something different each release. 10.2 was speed and reliability. 10.3 was Exposé and iChat AV. 10.4 was dashboard and spotlight.

Microsoft: always the same talk. Half-empty promises
Apple: inventive, not always perfectly implemented, but inventive.

[BenRoethig]

*cough*ripoff*cough*

Apple wasn't kidding with the "introducing longhorn" posters for Tiger. Can Microsoft actually come up with their own ideas for once.

[mkrishnan]

At list the CUT function in the file system will work in Vista for sure. :)

Cut works fine in Finder -- it just does something different than you think. :p It cuts and pastes filenames. But yeah, I guess I could see that.

And *shrug* to be honest, I miss spring-loaded folders in Windows (which I still use) more than Cut and Paste in Finder.

OTOH, I suppose Vista will also let you burn MS CDRs from Explorer. Which is *my* biggest pet peeve about Finder. *does not buy any stuff about the Disk Utility approach being better*

[MacHamman]

As a switcher (my new iBook is on its way, still in manufacturing) Vista looks wonderful. I am a CS major in college and any improvements to the Windows OS are welcome with open arms. So what if it looks a lot like Tiger. I agree that Gates has stolen ideas from Jobs for years and will continue to do so. But I don't think it is wise of prudent to begin bashing an entire company just because it has a larger marketshare, and as such gets targeted more frequently. Use logic for a second, if Apple and Microsoft switched places, it would the Mac OS that is getting targeted by malicious hackers, not the other way around. I will agree that Windows has some very large gaping security holes, but I have never personally had a problem because I lways had my computer protected and locked down. So for me an easier to use Windows OS is awesome news. The way I look at it is I will have the best of both worlds on my Mactel Powerbook, when they come out, and be able to troubleshoot and work on either type for years to come. Bring on both OS 10.5 Leopard and Windows Vista, I want both of them!

[Mavimao]

OTOH, I suppose Vista will also let you burn MS CDRs from Explorer. Which is *my* biggest pet peeve about Finder. *does not buy any stuff about the Disk Utility approach being better*

Umm....you can burn CDRs from the Finder... You just click on that radiation sphere thingy...

[mkrishnan]

Umm....you can burn CDRs from the Finder... You just click on that radiation sphere thingy...

Yes, but they will not be Multisession (MS), will they? Which was, wasn't it, what I said in the post you replied to? :)

[Mavimao]

Sorry, I thought you meant Microsoft.

I was a little confused there I admit because I didn't know Microsoft started selling CDR... :o

Oh and to REALLY answer your question: Toast.
BAM! :p

[Dunepilot]

Cut works fine in Finder -- it just does something different than you think. :p It cuts and pastes filenames. But yeah, I guess I could see that.

And *shrug* to be honest, I miss spring-loaded folders in Windows (which I still use) more than Cut and Paste in Finder.

OTOH, I suppose Vista will also let you burn MS CDRs from Explorer. Which is *my* biggest pet peeve about Finder. *does not buy any stuff about the Disk Utility approach being better*

I agree. I really hate moving files from once place to another in Windows, but spring-loaded folders make it completely painless in Mac OS X. Spring loaded folders were important enough for me that I wouldn't use Mac OS X until 10.2 reintroduced that facility.

Hey, Microsoft! Why don't you clone that feature too? Go on, you know you wanna.

[munkle]

I know it's early days but this beta looks like XP with RSS and some transparency...woopee.

It's also worrying that people are reporting IE7 still doesn't render CSS right :rolleyes:

[Dm84]

You're definitely right, but how is any of what you're saying not true of Windows XP, or Server 2003, or unlikely to be true of Vista? UPnP as a standard aside, the state of plug-and-play functionality on Macs is much better than it is on Windows -- things like Bonjour allowing printers to be run without setup are pretty much still unheard of on PCs, aren't they? Unless you run Apple Bonjour for Windows, I guess. And PnP on Windows is still terrible.Someone I know told me that Windows Media Player 10 has a feature that allows people to connect to other Windows Media Player libraries on the local network.

Gee, I wonder where Microsoft stole that idea from?

Vista is nothing more than a wholesale rip-off of Apple's innovation with a different GUI.

[yg17]

"More secure" my ass. I think they've pretty much been saying that since 98. The spyware and virus programmers will get around any security measures they have. Windows users make up more than 90% of the world, they need to get that junk on people's systems and will find a way to do so.

[AppleMatt]

Also, I'm still curious as to what two windows maximized at once looks like...


Goto winsupersite and Thurrott himself answers this.
As you'd imagine, it's pretty bad.

AppleMatt

[myapplseedshurt]

I hope people will see with the release of Vista that MS products truly are superior.

Apple has touted it's OS as something better than MS, however I disagree.
I hope Vista finally crushes mac osx.

[stridey]

Goto winsupersite and Thurrott himself answers this.
As you'd imagine, it's pretty bad.

AppleMatt

Thanks.
http://winsupersite.com/images/reviews/winvista_b1_50.jpg
http://winsupersite.com/images/reviews/winvista_b1_49.jpg

Eww.....

[LaughingMan11]

Use logic for a second, if Apple and Microsoft switched places, it would the Mac OS that is getting targeted by malicious hackers, not the other way around.

This is not logic. This is logical fallacy, and I'll explain why.

I've heard this argument many times, and I've shot it down many times as well. Basically, you are implying that Mac OS X is not in any way superior to Windows security wise and that only because Windows is dominant is the only reason why it has so many problems.

Thus you argue that the Mac would be in the same position if it were dominant. It is a logical fallacy because you can't possibly make that conclusion because the situation NEVER has occurred, and is 100% hypothetical.

A lot of people use this argument to discount Mac OS X's security, while in reality, at a fundamental design level, it is simply done better than Windows... a huge part is because Apple based the core of their OS on the battle harded BSD, and other open unix variants... Microsoft's is by all accounts all proprietary and made at Microsoft. This speaks worlds about the advantages of an open system rather than a closed one. Closed systems, due to their secrecy, ironically, invite malicious parties much more than open ones.

The current situation speaks more about Microsoft's overall strategy for software development more than it does the effects of having a popular system. Microsoft is VERY guilty of pushing feature after feature without any thought into the ramifications of those features. Microsoft introduced ActiveX , opening a world of functionality that can happen through Internet Explorer, and allowing it to interface with the OS, and do cool stuff. That was YEARS ago... ActiveX and other features that Microsoft bluntly pushed out in previous OS releases have come and bite them in the butt... Spyware, Adware, viruses, trojans. It's a jungle, and Microsoft is responsible. Microsoft's approach is to push out potentially vulnerable features first, and then pick up the pieces later. Patch after patch after patch... Most Windows users still don't update their patches, so there are TONS of computers out there that hackers turn into zombies.

Apple has made similar mistakes in the past, but in my opinion, not as badly as Microsoft has.

[Mavimao]

I hope people will see with the release of Vista that MS products truly are superior.

Apple has touted it's OS as something better than MS, however I disagree.
I hope Vista finally crushes mac osx.

Windows Directory....

Need I say more about Microsoft's "superiority"?

[dukeblue91]

I see not much has changed in the looks department.
If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like one..
it's a duck :rolleyes:

[macnews]

If anything, people will avoid upgrading. MS could experience some of the same problems Apple has had with people switching. Change what they are used to using and they freak out. "What are these funny icons?", "Why can I see behind this window, can I still click on it?" "Do I need to be connected to the internet to use the virtual folders?"

Yes, the geeks and 0-25 crowd won't complain but others will. Yes, it will all basically be the same and work the same but people will be uncertain. I have encountered this with three different people I have had switch. A big seller for Mac OS X is the virus and stability issue. I have college students at least once a month literally say "wow" when I force quite a program w/o restarting and relaunch it in no time.

So, well Vista windows will make some strides MS reputation and people's tendency to buck change may slow things down a bit. Remember, the beta 2 or 3 may be out by Xmas 2006 but will they actually ship a BETA with new machines? Not to mention the reputation for viri - which I wouldn't be suprised if many viri writers were on MS's list for developers!

[dsharits]

Windows Directory....

Need I say more about Microsoft's "superiority"?
Uh......no, that pretty much covers it. ;)

[outerspaceapple]

wow, this looks like the final demise of microsoft. you know I really didn't hate M$ untill they started using their monopoly to bully governments... no company should do that. thats just way to freeking huge.

Not to mention the reputation for viri - which I wouldn't be suprised if many viri writers were on MS's list for developers!

Bahahahaha!!! yah, you got that right. I wonder how much norton and McAffee are paying these guys to keep them in business.


haha, "developers." thats gonna crack me up all day.

"Developers, developers, developers, developers. Developers, developers, developers, developers." Stupid... other Steve.

[keyMACer]

wow they FINALLY got rid of the '+' '-' for viewing folder contents in list view and adopted apple's use of the triangle. Took them long enough to copy it. ;)

Oh and anyone else notice the light white halo that is around all the letters that have a translucent background from the screenshots?. Guess they can't rely on consumers to give em that halo feeling eh?

[dsharits]

I'm certain it's better than Tiger, but what about Leopard? Will see
Yeah, keep dreaming, PC boy. :rolleyes: Windows XP was kicked squarely in the butt by OS X 10.1. Now that they have a new skin and a search function that they bummed off Apple, it's better than 10.4?? Where's the logic in that?
Oh wait, you'll have to tell me after you've finished your virus updates and your reboot. :rolleyes:

[AP_piano295]

How do you quote a single piece of anothers post and not the entire post?

[outerspaceapple]

Yeah, keep dreaming, PC boy. :rolleyes: Windows XP was kicked squarely in the butt by OS X 10.1. Now that they have a new skin and a search function that they bummed off Apple, it's better than 10.4?? Where's the logic in that?
Oh wait, you'll have to tell me after your finished with your virus updates and your reboot. :rolleyes:


haha, tell 'em dsharits.



How do you quote a single piece of anothers post and not the entire post?


2 ways to do this.

1. quote the whole thing and delete the parts you don't want...
2. use the [ quote="randomname" ] and [ /quote ] tags to sandwitch anything you want. For instance

I am my mother's uncle, viva la vista

[dsharits]

How do you quote a single piece of anothers post and not the entire post?
When you click the quote button at the bottom of the post, it will give you a new post window, and you simply delete the part of the post that you don't want in between the [ QUOTE ] and [ /QUOTE ].

EDIT: Darn it, you beat me.

haha, tell 'em dsharits.
Just doin my job. :cool:

[MacHamman]

I've heard this argument many times, and I've shot it down many times as well. Basically, you are implying that Mac OS X is not in any way superior to Windows security wise and that only because Windows is dominant is the only reason why it has so many problems.

Thus you argue that the Mac would be in the same position if it were dominant. It is a logical fallacy because you can't possibly make that conclusion because the situation NEVER has occurred, and is 100% hypothetical.

You misunderstand, im not coming from a security standpoint, im coming from the fact that it is not in the vested interest of most hackers to go after an OS that has only about 5% market share. I know that UNIX is far more secure then Windows will ever be. But throught the use of virus scanners, spyware removers and other programs, it is possible to have a Windows computer that is devoid of malware. I know becuase I managed to do that for an entire school year. I was just saying that if the market share roles were reversed, Apple would be the target of more code-slingers like Microsoft is right now. It is simple logic when you assume these people want to do as much damage as they possibley can, so naturally they attack the big guy. Thats all i was trying to say. Heck, im getting an iBook, its in the mail right now. Hows that for touting Microsoft as better than Apple? They both have their weaknesses and both have their strengths.

[GFLPraxis]

I doubt it'll be too hard to track down a version of this install, I can't wait to get my hands on it.

I wonder if Microsoft Paint is still the same ****** Windows 98 version...

The Longhorn version of Paint is exactly the same except it adds TIFF support. I have the last alpha version, I checked.

[Photorun]

Brad Goldberg, Windows client general manager, told reporters and analysts at a recent pre-Beta 1 workshop that Microsoft's design goals for Windows Vista fell into three major categories: instilling a "new level of confidence in your PC" by improving security, privacy, performance, reliability, and ease of deployment; bringing clarity to the organization and use of information; and "seamlessly connecting you to people and devices."

While reading this paragraph at every turn I kept falling out of my chair with peels of laughter. Who writes this guy's material? He's HYSTERICAL! He should go on the comedy club circuit. The "new level of confidence..." ow ow, my side is splitting... RLMAO!!!!

[schatten]

How do you sing a post and not tire?

...like that. :D

(to break it down for you: you use your delete key to delete the parts of the post you don't want)

[1macker1]

Nice, clean and crisp. I'm really wanting to take this for a spin.
I like this quote: " The OS will have a new restart manager "that we think will reduce reboots by 50 per cent," Wilson says."
Here are some screenshots:
http://www.windowsbeta.net/
doesnt look much different than the current OS, but I must say, I'm glad they got rid of the big green start button. The transparencies look nicer too.
You can see the tabs in ie in this picture (http://www.win-vista.net/modules.php?set_albumName=VistaBeta1&id=image004&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php) behind the other window

[vincebio]

Windows Directory....

Need I say more about Microsoft's "superiority"?


someone with a sense of humour at last

[pubwvj]

Hmm... MS keeps changing the name and the next one will be Windows Hasta LaVista?

[pcdoctor]

I'll admit guys.
I've been a windows user for a very long time.
If the price is right when the macintels come out, it will be my first mac.
I'm sick and tired of windows.
I'm also sick and tired of hearing users complain about viruses/spyware/adware (even though they are partially to blame by going to every website known to man).
If and when I get a mac, I refuse to get MS Office.
From what I've seen on Apple's website, Pages and Keynote looks nice.
I guess I'm just tired buying their expensive software when everyone else's is cheaper. Normally, I'm on Microsoft's side.

[bigandy]

As horrible as it is to admit it, my office computer's currently downloading Vista from my MSDN subscription (paid for by work, don't worry, i wouldn't myself in a million years!), to test it.

I work in the IT Training field, and was intrigued by the imaged based installations Vista will be using from beta 1 onwards - meaning creating these annoying as hell MS technical courses will become soooooooooooo quick and easy, instead of the week it takes to build a course that only takes a week to teach (!).

from that point of view it will be great, cause it's guaranteed to make my life at least a little bit easier. but from the other POV, the fact that i'm a mac person? i couldn't give a flying crap.

if vista doesn't improve my productivity slightly above the ***** line, i'm going to quit my job.

seriously.

[1macker1]

Kicked in the butt by OS X 10.1. How so. In using both XP and OS X, I say that OS is a personal choice. If u know how to set up firewalls and antispyware protection on, I dont see much of a difference. I'm running Panther and I dont see think that it's any better than XP. **shugz** Just my .02
Yeah, keep dreaming, PC boy. :rolleyes: Windows XP was kicked squarely in the butt by OS X 10.1. Now that they have a new skin and a search function that they bummed off Apple, it's better than 10.4?? Where's the logic in that?
Oh wait, you'll have to tell me after you've finished your virus updates and your reboot. :rolleyes:

[seashellz]

Bwahahahaha!
WINDOZE™ VIRUS-TA? no danken!


at the rate things are going-Virista will ship as HALF the OS originally planned-and more like in 2007 Q1-Q3... :D :D

[myapplseedshurt]

Windows Directory....

Need I say more about Microsoft's "superiority"?


you can talk all you want, but that doesn't change the dynamics of the market. plain and simple, MS is superior, and businesses know it. follow the dollars and you'll see where your wrong.

P.S. I never said anything about TECHNICAL superiority, did I!

[myapplseedshurt]

you can talk all you want, but that doesn't change the dynamics of the market. plain and simple, MS is superior, and businesses know it. follow the dollars and you'll see where your wrong.

P.S. I never said anything about TECHNICAL superiority, did I!


I should also mention that MS has a sweet position. all they have to do is steal apples ideas, and provide them to the masses. They don't even have to innovate anymore, just copy. no one else besides us nerds really notice this or even care.

As I said, MS rocks! :D :D

[LaughingMan11]

You misunderstand, im not coming from a security standpoint, im coming from the fact that it is not in the vested interest of most hackers to go after an OS that has only about 5% market share. I know that UNIX is far more secure then Windows will ever be. But throught the use of virus scanners, spyware removers and other programs, it is possible to have a Windows computer that is devoid of malware. I know becuase I managed to do that for an entire school year. I was just saying that if the market share roles were reversed, Apple would be the target of more code-slingers like Microsoft is right now. It is simple logic when you assume these people want to do as much damage as they possibley can, so naturally they attack the big guy. Thats all i was trying to say. Heck, im getting an iBook, its in the mail right now. Hows that for touting Microsoft as better than Apple? They both have their weaknesses and both have their strengths.

They would be the target, but the hackers would not have the same level of success as they do with Microsoft. We just don't know how sucessful they would be on the Mac because your situation is completely hypothetical.

My point is that it's useless to state what you did initially. It's obvious, and it's been beaten to death. You can't make any conclusions based on a hypothetical situation.

[schatten]

I'll admit guys.
I've been a mac user for a very long time.
If the price is right when the macintels come out, it will be my first mac.
I'm sick and tired of windows.
I'm also sick and tired of hearing users complain about viruses/spyware/adware (even though they are partially to blame by going to every website known to man).
If and when I get a mac, I refuse to get MS Office.


Refusing to get MS Office for Mac is probably an unnecessary move, not to mention self-hindering (depending on your line of work)

Microsoft's Mac Business Unit is actually a decent software comapany. MS Office for Mac shares no code with its Windows counterpart (anymore) and has been touted (by MS higher-ups) as being SUPERIOR to the Win version.

You're not "Teaching MS a lesson" by refusing to buy their products for Mac, just hindering yourself and discouraging MS from continuing to make/support Mac apps...and that's a bad thing.

[LaughingMan11]

I should also mention that MS has a sweet position. all they have to do is steal apples ideas, and provide them to the masses. They don't even have to innovate anymore, just copy. no one else besides us nerds really notice this or even care.

As I said, MS rocks! :D :D


By all accounts they are losing share to Linux and Mac OS X. On the browser front, Firefox is making huge progress, pushing MS to less than 90% share, and dropping rapidly. All of this is made possible because normal people are starting to catch wind that Microsoft really is this slimy company that obviously you describe, and their products are second rate.

[kirk26]

Compare that to the hype around Tiger, which is mostly about the great new things you can do... very little of which has to do fighting your computer.
http://www.apple.com/macosx/newfeatures/

Yea, just the bugginess of Tiger and the quick two updates already released. ;)

[awesomebase]

I think it is too early to tell whether this will truly be a significant update to XP or not. I think that, to a certain extent, Microsoft is doing their best to combat a growing security problem. I'm amused that almost all the features that were listed are available now on the Mac! I'm also certain that the upgrades for the OS will be north of $200 for individual licenses.
I would be interested in knowing whether, like Apple, Microsoft will finally produce an OS that runs faster on existing hardware or whether we're all going to have to upgrade to 5GHz Dual-Core chips just to see some decent speed. My PB G4 550 is still faster at waking up from sleeping than any of the best-breed Windows desktops/laptops I've seen. It would be nice for the 90%+ people that do nothing more with their computers than compose email, play music/video, and run Word occasionally to not have to upgrade their systems to mammoth proportions just to be able to do those things in Vista. Well, I'm doubtful that will be realized, but, hopefully there will be at least some improvement for once. Though, typically, when something isn't mentioned, it means that it has not even been considered, so, good luck on the upgrades!

[BenRoethig]

By all accounts they are losing share to Linux and Mac OS X. On the browser front, Firefox is making huge progress, pushing MS to less than 90% share, and dropping rapidly. All of this is made possible because normal people are starting to catch wind that Microsoft really is this slimy company that obviously you describe, and their products are second rate.

I wouldn't even bother with the guy. It's pretty clear what his intentions are here.

[beatle888]

Mac OS X has a lot of features that are half baked yes including spotlight! At the end of the day if an OS has improved, it has improved. One thing i would like to see is an improved UPnP.

I think once people get the prettier windows, most of the "casual" users will fail to see any reason to switch. Most of the people who buy macs (other than the hardcore mac guys) are people who just want a pretty system not because of any technical superiority (as if they understand and even better because they donot care)!!



i had to log in from work just to respond to this rediculous statement.

people buy macs for the superior (at the moment) os. its easy to maintain and get things done. it organizes information in a sensical easily readable manner.

my girlfriend never got things done on her PC. she hates windows. i got her a mac and now she uses her computer with no problem. things work. she doesnt have to trouble shoot the freaken OS. THATS why people buy macs.


their is life beyond your perspective.

[fabsgwu]

I like this quote: " The OS will have a new restart manager "that we think will reduce reboots by 50 per cent," Wilson says."
Here are some screenshots:
http://www.windowsbeta.net/
doesnt look much different than the current OS, but I must say, I'm glad they got rid of the big green start button. The transparencies look nicer too.
You can see the tabs in ie in this picture (http://www.win-vista.net/modules.php?set_albumName=VistaBeta1&id=image004&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php) behind the other window

Wow, that UI for the taskbar is like they took the Tiger "milk" menu bar, painted it black, and flipped it to the lower part of the screen. How original. I'm convinced the XP UI was designed by Fisher Price ;)

[GodBless]

Although Microsoft says that virus and spyware prevention will be better with Vista, Vista will probably contain spyware from the very beginning. (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1834607,00.asp)

[Mavimao]

you can talk all you want, but that doesn't change the dynamics of the market. plain and simple, MS is superior, and businesses know it. follow the dollars and you'll see where your wrong.

P.S. I never said anything about TECHNICAL superiority, did I!

Oh right, now we're talking about 'marketshare superiority'. I guess I failed to decifer "I hope Vista finally crushes mac osx" as Vista finally crushing Apple's marketshare.
:rolleyes:

[aboutthat]

But throught the use of virus scanners, spyware removers and other programs, it is possible to have a Windows computer that is devoid of malware. I know becuase I managed to do that for an entire school year.

There's a difference between "managing" to have a machine without any of that stuff and a machine that doesn't need any of the scanners, spyware stuff, etc. I hope I'll never have to cut a check to the Norton people ever again and I don't think I'll have to!

[BGil]

Windows XP was kicked squarely in the butt by OS X 10.1.

Yeah right. Do you remember how long it took to boot 10.1? No journaling, encryption, built-in faxing, built-in compression (?), searching, HARDWARE SUPPORT, SOFTWARE SUPPORT, speed, responsiveness, stability, decent web browsing, video chat, audio chat, decent file browsing...

10.1 sucked hardcore. And it was so damn slow. Do you remember what it was like to resize a window or launch an app? Do you rmember how unstable Mail and Classic were?

Go read Siracusa's review of 10.1 and notice how it's about 75% negative. I know I stayed with OS 9 until 10.2 as did many others (even though our computers shipped with 10.1 as the default).

[Macmaniac]

I give it a week before it hits the torrent pages! Soon all the L33T Haxors will be finding ways to screw it up. I can feel the slashdot crowd chomping at the bit.

[Peterkro]

I give it a week before it hits the torrent pages! Soon all the L33T Haxors will be finding ways to screw it up. I can feel the slashdot crowd chomping at the bit.
Its been on the torrent pages for a week.

[budugu]

Yeah, keep dreaming, PC boy. :rolleyes: Windows XP was kicked squarely in the butt by OS X 10.1. Now that they have a new skin and a search function that they bummed off Apple, it's better than 10.4?? Where's the logic in that?
Oh wait, you'll have to tell me after you've finished your virus updates and your reboot. :rolleyes:

Now where is your logic? 10.1 better than XP ... :D :p

[Daveway]

I have the IE7 beta. Don't waste your time! It may be faster than other browsers but it has limited support. The UI is absolutely abysmal. I wouldn't wish this browser on my worse of Windows enemies.

MS should be embarassed. I know it's just beta, but I'm talkin UI.

[rolandf]

Mac OS X has a lot of features that are half baked yes including spotlight! At the end of the day if an OS has improved, it has improved. One thing i would like to see is an improved UPnP.

I think once people get the prettier windows, most of the "casual" users will fail to see any reason to switch. Most of the people who buy macs (other than the hardcore mac guys) are people who just want a pretty system not because of any technical superiority (as if they understand and even better because they donot care)!!


I agree! Tiger was dissapointing in many respects, also the changes in the interface. I bought a Mac for the OS and not for the iPod.

As I look what Apple is doing lately, they are forcing people to switch to Linux, which is catching up a lot and gives some choices.

[potofgold]

Its been on the torrent pages for a week.

Time to check it out :cool:

[pcdoctor]

I meant to say that I've been a pc user for a long time.
I figured if I got OSX I should support other companies besides Microsoft.
When do you guys think AppleWorks will be able to compete with Office more?

[stridey]

I meant to say that I've been a pc user for a long time.
I figured if I got OSX I should support other companies besides Microsoft.
When do you guys think AppleWorks will be able to compete with Office more?

Never. Apple isn't developing AppleWorks, and hasn't for years.

[JoshH]

Sorry if this has been covered, but I like Microsoft's recent font choices...

Look familiar?

[spaz]

I meant to say that I've been a pc user for a long time.
I figured if I got OSX I should support other companies besides Microsoft.
When do you guys think AppleWorks will be able to compete with Office more?

Appleworks pretty much got folded into iWork, which is their presentation/document creation software. It's really not a match for a full MS Office suite, but I'd expect to see it grow into a much more impressive suite in the future. No spreadsheet yet, however.

[Lynxpro]

Refusing to get MS Office for Mac is probably an unnecessary move, not to mention self-hindering (depending on your line of work) Microsoft's Mac Business Unit is actually a decent software comapany. MS Office for Mac shares no code with its Windows counterpart (anymore) and has been touted (by MS higher-ups) as being SUPERIOR to the Win version.



True, but isn't Office v. Mac written in Carbon and not Cocoa?

[PretendPCuser]

Seriously, i couldn't believe they would pick a name (even a code name) that's so potentially easily seen as a slam against their user base. Can you imagine the potentially funny commercials you could make if they kept that name? One could be a rip off of VONAGE's "peope do stupid things"....with the running of the bulls.
:p

[Mr.Hostility]

Its been on the torrent pages for a week.
:rolleyes: The alpha has been, the beta just "arrived" today, as it was the first time it was even available to MSDN members.

Screw Torrents anyway, they all get pinched eventually.

[Mr.Hostility]

Sorry if this has been covered, but I like Microsoft's recent font choices...

Look familiar?
I assume you are referring to this story?
http://www.hardcovermedia.com/lab/articles/fruseg.htm

Or were you saying it was stolen from Apple by MS?

[feakbeak]

Our dev office downloaded and installed the beta today (MSDN subscription). I only played with it for a few minutes, but it seems alright. Our software won't even install currently, the beta 1 has a new Windows Installer version (version 4.0). Once we get past our install issues it will be interesting to see how many of our apps run without requiring changes.

Hopefully, we'll make a VMware disk image I can use to tinker with it a little more.

I think MS is still focusing on under-the-hood changes as they did with WinXP SP2. That doesn't bother me so much, the UI is better but not as good as Apple's and that's fine. If this version gets released being more secure and stable I'll be happy. I've never really liked the default UI options in Windows fortunately you have quite a few options to alter the look to your tastes. I hated the WinXP look out of the box, but after a few months of tweaking the UI options I settled on a look and feel that I really enjoy using.

[jeriqo]

Whatever.

The Windows world has no interest to me anymore. I hope I don't ever have to buy another windows based PC due to software again.

Hopefully with the Intel switch any reason for using windows in terms of applications will be gone as, programmers will no longer need to design them for the PPC chip and the x86 chip.

Hopefully.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.
(except for 100% ASM software, which represent 0.00001%)

[myapplseedshurt]

By all accounts they are losing share to Linux and Mac OS X. On the browser front, Firefox is making huge progress, pushing MS to less than 90% share, and dropping rapidly. All of this is made possible because normal people are starting to catch wind that Microsoft really is this slimy company that obviously you describe, and their products are second rate.


sorry, but I haven't seen any evidence that mac osx is being used by businesses. I know someone in a small business who had to replace all the computers, and when I asked why she didn't consider apple, she said (get this),

"what's apple"

HA!

[camomac]

hmmm.... looks much better than XP, but it's whats under the hood that counts, and no matter what you can't take micro$oft outta that.

i'm sure it will have a virus within hours of its release.

[dsharits]

hmmm.... looks much better than XP, but it's whats under the hood that counts, and no matter what you can't take micro$oft outta that.

i'm sure it will have a virus within hours of its release.
Heck, why don't they just save people the trouble and include a virus with it's release? :p

[dsharits]

Yeah right. Do you remember how long it took to boot 10.1? No journaling, encryption, built-in faxing, built-in compression (?), searching, HARDWARE SUPPORT, SOFTWARE SUPPORT, speed, responsiveness, stability, decent web browsing, video chat, audio chat, decent file browsing...

10.1 sucked hardcore. And it was so damn slow. Do you remember what it was like to resize a window or launch an app? Do you rmember how unstable Mail and Classic were?

Go read Siracusa's review of 10.1 and notice how it's about 75% negative. I know I stayed with OS 9 until 10.2 as did many others (even though our computers shipped with 10.1 as the default).
True, 10.1 was horrible. But OS X at it's worst was still better than XP at it's best. Now, there's jusst no comparison, because OS X has progressed lightyears while XP did what? Oh, I forgot, SP2. :rolleyes:

[Tahko]

+++
- that black taskbar looks kinda cool
- i kinda like that transparency, it's cool
- everything on it seems to be ripped from Tiger! just take a look at the search symbol, it's 1:1 rip-off of Spotlight symbol!

---
- it's heavy as hell (3ghz proc minimum, wan't it?)
- transparecy seems to get messed when more windows are open
- it's 100% certainly infected right out-of-box when plugged to internet. thanks to "limited" developer betas lounging the internet as we speak.
- everything on it seems to be ripped from Tiger! just take a look at the search symbol, it's 1:1 rip-off of Spotlight symbol!



Does anyone remember this picture from Tiger release spectacle? :D

[dernhelm]

I'm certain it's better than Tiger, but what about Leopard? Will see

How can something that won't even ship until sometime NEXT YEAR be better than a currently shipping product? Especially one as good as Tiger?

Now don't get me wrong, I understand what you meant, but this is the attitude that MS thrives on - "you won't want to leave us because while what you currently have has a lot of problems, what we are almost ready to roll out in 1, err.. , 3, err.. 9, err.. make that 17 months will ROCK YOUR WORLD!"

Fortunately, even many MS pundits are calling this one a dud, I've heard several people (TWiT and others) compare Longhorn, err... Vista with the Windows ME launch, and just as pathetic. So I don't know how far the MS cachet will carry them this time.

So far all I've seen is some pretty screen shots (not even as pretty as the one's that Sun was pushing for their 3D GUI). I've heard so many promises made and retracted that I really don't know what else will be in there anymore. But they had better pull something better that transparent window headers out of their bag o' tricks or they'll have a pretty tough sell.

Meanwhile Apple is producing the best eye candy on the planet and already backing it up with actual technology like spotlight, core audio, core data, etc. All of which are a little rough around the edges right now, but certainly usable in their current state.

[Rower_CPU]

Keep it civil, folks. Discuss the topic, not each other.

Thanks :)

[inkswamp]

To those of you who think Spotlight is half-baked... wha???

C'mon... I know we Mac fanatics are prone to whining, but this is a little ludicrous. For a first version of a whole new concept in the Mac OS, it's pretty impressive. It does what it claims, is reasonably unintrusive and free of bugs, gives the user a surprisingly rapid and far-reaching search and offers a few options. On top of that, the technology is built into the Finder search and has been incorporated into many of Apple's applications. Developers have been given the tools to do the same.

That's half-baked?

By "half-baked" do we mean that it doesn't contain any number of esoteric features and preferences that 95% of the users out there simply don't care about? That's not half-baked. What's there works as advertised and has been put to some fairly nifty uses.

[feakbeak]

Our dev office downloaded and installed the beta today (MSDN subscription). I only played with it for a few minutes, but it seems alright. Our software won't even install currently, the beta 1 has a new Windows Installer version (version 4.0). Once we get past our install issues it will be interesting to see how many of our apps run without requiring changes.

Hopefully, we'll make a VMware disk image I can use to tinker with it a little more.

I think MS is still focusing on under-the-hood changes as they did with WinXP SP2. That doesn't bother me so much, the UI is better but not as good as Apple's and that's fine. If this version gets released being more secure and stable I'll be happy. I've never really liked the default UI options in Windows fortunately you have quite a few options to alter the look to your tastes. I hated the WinXP look out of the box, but after a few months of tweaking the UI options I settled on a look and feel that I really enjoy using.Got our apps installed with a few tweaks to the installations. They seem to run just fine on the surface - so no huge problems. I'm sure there will be minor fix-ups but I'm pleased.

I was really curious to see if they've worked on improving the searching capabilities of Windows, since they were never very good. There are quite a few more options to narrow down your search with filters which is nice. It seems like you will have more control over your Windows searches. However, it is dog slow in the beta 1! It's significantly slower than searching in Windows XP. Hopefully, they are working on the searching performance now and that is why the beta 1 serach performance is so bad. Future betas will let us know. They have a lot of work to do if they want the Windows searching performance to compare with Spotlight.

Haven't tried making that VMWare image yet, but I just remembered that it might not work because VMWare's driver support and VMWare tools install may not go well on it. Worth a shot though, wish me luck. It would be nice to play around and then be able to revert it back to a clean install.

[geerlingguy]

Looks like OS X... only uglier and with silly colors.

Almost all design cues are taken from Apple. What does this remind me of... hmm... maybe windows 95?

[BornAgainMac]

It would be terrible news if at Macworld 2007, Steve announces a 4th transition from Mac OS X to Windows. Steve: "We know transitions. That is why we are going to have yet another one. We at Apple have lived a double life. If you used Xcode, then you need to port to Visual Studio .NET."

[the-fish]

It would be terrible news if at Macworld 2007, Steve announces a 4th transition from Mac OS X to Windows. Steve: "We know transitions. That is why we are going to have yet another one. We at Apple have lived a double life. If you used Xcode, then you need to port to Visual Studio .NET."
Yeah...

Although I'm as annoyed as the next guy at Micro$oft for blatantly plundering stuff from Apple since the GUI was invented, they are a total software company, there's nothing else they can do I suppose. They have to progress somehow - and if the next logical step is the same as Apple's last step, they'll do it - unless they innovate in a way completely different to Apple's way. Which they won't. Because they're Micro$oft. *Puts in random full stops/periods. Everywhere.*

[Marvy]

It would be terrible news if at Macworld 2007, Steve announces a 4th transition from Mac OS X to Windows. Steve: "We know transitions. That is why we are going to have yet another one. We at Apple have lived a double life. If you used Xcode, then you need to port to Visual Studio .NET."

"Actually, Tiger has been developed under MS during the last five years."

And then some guy comes onto the stage, and talks about a little checkbox for compiling Mac apps as .NET applications.

[applepuke]

sorry, but I believe MS still has superior products.

moe :p :cool:

[applepuke]

sorry, but I believe MS still has superior products.

moe :p :cool:

myappleseeds was banned, so I must carry on for him.

venture onward!!

to get more to the point, MS is in the middle of a revolution, which, might or might not have adverse effects on apple. I sort of hope it does, given the fact that apple has been an annoyance to them for a while.

Vista will be more than everyone here thinks, as some features haven't been publicly exposed. I don't work for MS, but I know what's going on because I work for someone that deals with them.

great things are comming from MS, and you heard it here first.

[rendezvouscp]

sorry, but I believe MS still has superior products.

moe :p :cool:

Wow, it's like the mothership is sending out all the trolls today. I know it's a message board, but it's not exactly the kind of thing you should do. I mean, Applepuke? On a MacRumors board? Dissing Apple? We're not all crazy fanatics, but you should be careful.

I'm pretty sure that with the second beta, we'll see some smarter UI decisions by Microsoft, but I'm not betting anything on it. Does anyone have reports on IE7's rendering engine? That's really all I care about. :p
-Chase

[rendezvouscp]

myappleseeds was banned, so I must carry on for him.

venture onward!!

to get more to the point, MS is in the middle of a revolution, which, might or might not have adverse effects on apple. I sort of hope it does, given the fact that apple has been an annoyance to them for a while.

Vista will be more than everyone here thinks, as some features haven't been publicly exposed. I don't work for MS, but I know what's going on because I work for someone that deals with them.

great things are comming from MS, and you heard it here first.

Comming? Bleh. As in this decade? You wouldn't happen to be a "reincarnation" of myappleseeds, would you? I'm curious what this "revolution" is, since the only thing really revolving is some APIs and interface changes. Got anything for us to bite on?
-Chase

[BornAgainMac]

sorry, but I believe MS still has superior products.


Abort, Retry, Fail? ha ha ha ha

[pubwvj]

[Windows] Vista will be more than everyone here thinks, as some features haven't been publicly exposed...great things are comming from MS, and you heard it here first.

Yes, they will be introducing the brand new concept of the one (1) button mouse, security and no more viruses. Unfortunately they will only deliver on one of the three and the button still won't work right.

[dejo]

Vista will be more than everyone here thinks, as some features haven't been publicly exposed.

What would be the purpose of keeping them secret? Are developers expected to stumble across these features as they work with the Beta release?

[dsharits]

myappleseeds was banned, so I must carry on for him.
Yeah, and you wouldn't happen to be the same person, now would you?? If you read the rules that you agree to when you first register, it says clearly that you cannot re-register if you are banned. Just curious, because myapplseedshurt was banned today, and you just registered and came straight to the thread where he left off....

[quigleybc]

I'm certain it's better than Tiger, but what about Leopard? Will see



aah do you know what message board your on?

:cool:

[zapbranigan]

From the Macworld article...
The OS will have a new restart manager "that we think will reduce reboots by 50 per cent," Wilson says...
Down to just three times a week then. Hilarious!
..."There are good business reasons for us and our partners to ship in time for the holidays in 2006," Sullivan said.
Trasnlation: Screw it if the product isn't ready, the advertising campaign will put a copy in every current user's Christmas stocking.

Yeah, go Microsoft! :rolleyes:

[PCMacUser]

Not to mention the reputation for viri - which I wouldn't be suprised if many viri writers were on MS's list for developers!
Sorry to be picky, but the plural of virus is not viri (that's the latin for 'men', as in virile). Viruses is the plural form.

I know, I have too much time on my hands.

[MrJohnson]

You guys need to chill out. There are advantages to both systems, believe it or not.

For example, using a PC I can choose exactly what I was as hardware. Yes, Microsoft has given me a choice by having a huge driver database. Some would argue that because Microsoft has to support so many different computer with Windows it takes them an extremly long time to develop software. I tend to agree.

I wanted a macintosh this time around but decided against it, I will just have to wait for the macintels and pick up a powerbook. The reason I chose against it is, games and price. Thoes are two very BIG advantages Windows has over Mac OSX. If I wanted to spend $500 on a computer I could do pretty well if I wanted to use XP but if I wanted to use OSX I would be stuck with the mini or some crappy used powermac.

Another advantage windows has over the OSX croud is given the flexable hardware, the people in the know can overclock very easily. The new venice core athlon64's overclock like mad (2.7-2.8Ghz on air with ram speeds pushing 600Mhz all stable.) This allows me to build a relativly low price computer and it at very high speeds.

Directx 9 is better than OpenGL. Period. More developers use it and it's more supported by video card companies. Yes there are very good games that arn't offerend for OSX and probably never will be avaliable for OSX such as HL2 which is reason enough to have atleast one PC around.

All-in-all Apple computers are good for what they do. But there is a lot of software that just plain won't run on a mac, example: My dad has a law firm and needs the software bankruptcy pro but he can't use it because it's windows only. And for this reason Windows is still good and any improvement is great in my book.

Also, Windows XP is a solid operating system. It may not be as stable as OSX but for me it's great and it does EVERYTHING i want and need it to do. And because I'm not ignorant I can keep it clean and malware/spyware/virus free without any "special" software.

Also so some of you don't flip out, yes I've used OSX before and yes I think it's great but some of you need to chill out because you blow these windows problems way out of porportion. The vast majority of these problems are caused by user ignorance and bad third party software.

[MaCaDDiCT21]

amazing how similar "Vista" is to OSX...coincidence?

[Mod_Edit]

Well said MrJohnson. Both sides of the fence have their positives and negatives. Those who post here need to relax, as do windows forum members who bash osx.

It's just a beta, it's just Microsoft. It's just Apple.

[AnAppleADay]

The thing about windows is that it has FEW good qualities...the problem is that its good qualities are sometimes essential in the computer world. Though because of its abundance of negative qualities, windows loses and Mac OS is a better alternative.

[Mod_Edit]

The thing about windows is that it has FEW good qualities...the problem is that its good qualities are sometimes essential in the computer world. Though because of its abundance of negative qualities, windows loses and Mac OS is a better alternative.


I don't feel it's a question of which is the better alternative. OsX is better, Linux is better. But, these "few good qualities" are what most users, no matter how you define "most users", want. Run the software they need or like. Change the desktop wallpaper, maybe change the toolbar color. That's it. Microsoft does this. It does it at a smaller price. It runs more software. In no way am I bashing macs, but 99.9%, and I do not feel that is an overstatement, of people just want the machine to do that.

[sluthy]

From the screenshots, the interface style is VERY Tiger-like, down to the font and logo styles. Not bagging it, complimenting it, it looks good, the taskbar looks heap better without the green button. But the close/minimise/maximise buttons - whose bright idea was it to shift them left?? I liked being able to just throw my mouse up the top right to close (which iTunes won't let me do).

Also, half on topic - when exactly did Longhorn change name to Windows Vista? I knew Longhorn was just a codename, just missed the announcement. Vista's cool, better than "xp-erience".

[TheMasin9]

...And leaked to thousands of spyware, virus and trojan horse programers. Windows Vista will be the first OS to come preloaded with viri to keep Symantec and other anti-virus software makers in cash for years to come.

You know this is soooo true, MS IS in with all of the antivirus/spyware/adware companys. they pay ms a chunk of cash to keep holes open for them to code viruses and then miraculously the day a new virues is released, they have a cure for it. its a really sad world isnt it. MS and windows will be forever broken.

[TheMasin9]

I'm certain it's better than Tiger, but what about Leopard? Will see

YOU CALL YOURSELF A MAC FAN!!!

jezuz, it may have a few things that may seem better than tiger, but it will never BE better than tiger. windoze will always have its viruses spyware and adware problems and that is enuf to beat out any pluses it may have on tiger.

[TheMasin9]

all i have to say is...



HASTA LA VISTA BABY!!!

LONG LIVE APPLE, DOWN WITH MS!!!!

[MrJohnson]

The thing about windows is that it has FEW good qualities...the problem is that its good qualities are sometimes essential in the computer world. Though because of its abundance of negative qualities, windows loses and Mac OS is a better alternative.


Wow, you're wrong. It may not have a lot of good qualities to you because you DON'T USE windows xp or vista. Since I play games regularly I'm pretty much forced into using Windows. But, since I'm not a retard I learn to tweak my operating system to work for me. You use OSX because you don't do anything that required Windows. Windows is amazing because of gaming support as well as software support all around, something that OSX doesn't have and probably won't have for a very long time unless they put some crazy form of resetta in leopard.

Again, you people need to be more objective. OSX is great if you only doing a certain few things. Windows is great because it's compatable with everything and can do everything I want to do reliably. If I were just going to do e-mail and surf the web and post on a web forum about how much Windows sucked I would get OSX (and I do plan on getting a powerbook when they release the x86 models, as long as you can install windows on them). But for my needs I NEED Windows. And because I'm literate I can educate myself into not screwing up my own computer so Windows XP works extremly well.

Another feature that will be included in Vista that I read about, in which I really like is a gaming benchmarking program. This benchmarking program will benchmark your computer based on direct x performance. Game developers can use this benchmarking tool to automatically set reccomended settings based upon what your computer has. Does OSX have this (serious question) as in my book that's wicked ****ing cool and extremly useful. Another feature is Windows XP will automatically tweak itself to give you the most performance based upon your hardware. Another wicked cool setting. Does OSX have these features (I'm not saying it doesn't it's a serious question.)

[MrJohnson]

From the screenshots, the interface style is VERY Tiger-like, down to the font and logo styles. Not bagging it, complimenting it, it looks good, the taskbar looks heap better without the green button. But the close/minimise/maximise buttons - whose bright idea was it to shift them left?? I liked being able to just throw my mouse up the top right to close (which iTunes won't let me do).

Also, half on topic - when exactly did Longhorn change name to Windows Vista? I knew Longhorn was just a codename, just missed the announcement. Vista's cool, better than "xp-erience".


I agree, it looks awesome. Another plus for the end consumer.

They changed to the name vista sometime last week.

And for thoes of you bashing their codenames. The last few bits of software have been named after some ski resort somewhere.

[mkrishnan]

Also, half on topic - when exactly did Longhorn change name to Windows Vista? I knew Longhorn was just a codename, just missed the announcement. Vista's cool, better than "xp-erience".

It was announced internally on the 21st and publicly on the 22nd. See link. (http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000433051518/)

MS Reps were clearly bubbling with excitement. PS, if I ever look this incredibly lame, someone shoot me. :(

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/images/press/2005/07-22lh.jpg

[conditionals]

Well, I like it. I'd switch to back windows if it comes with exposé and a pretty laptop to run it with. I still think microsoft should make its own line of hardware in a stylized manner like apple. I'd give a lot to have a dedicated, well made windows laptop.

Also a public microsoft burning (that's real burning, with fire) of windows media player/launch of an itunes clone would be nice too.

[conditionals]

Micro$oft

App£e are just as bad. I'm sure Vista will have an "upgrade" price.

[MrJohnson]

Well, I like it. I'd switch to back windows if it comes with exposé and a pretty laptop to run it with. I still think microsoft should make its own line of hardware in a stylized manner like apple. I'd give a lot to have a dedicated, well made windows laptop.

Also a public microsoft burning (that's real burning, with fire) of windows media player/launch of an itunes clone would be nice too.


Asus makes some very attractive laptops at a high price. And Shuttle makes some beautiful screens and sff computers. But all of it costs at a premium.

[7on]

One poster mentioned games and this is what I've heard:
Vista will take the console's role in playing games - meaning games of the future may not require installations. Whether that guy I read was full of hot air or not is unknown. But it would be interesting.

[rendezvouscp]

Wow, you're wrong. It may not have a lot of good qualities to you because you DON'T USE windows xp or vista. Since I play games regularly I'm pretty much forced into using Windows.

Forced? There's plenty of games out there for a Mac and they run beautifully on today's hardware. I'm not a computer game fan, so I've always thought that dedicated boxes are much cheaper and better for games.

But, since I'm not a retard I learn to tweak my operating system to work for me.

Just because some people don't tweak an OS a lot doesn't mean they're retards, and there's plenty of "retards" that do tweak their OS. Frankly, I think your use of retard is offending. ;)

You use OSX because you don't do anything that required Windows. Windows is amazing because of gaming support as well as software support all around, something that OSX doesn't have and probably won't have for a very long time unless they put some crazy form of resetta in leopard.

It doesn't have amazing gaming support, but perhaps amazing games. Did I mention the titles available for the Mac? However, DirectX is easy to code for and inviting to developers, since most people have Windows. No contest there.

Again, you people need to be more objective. OSX is great if you only doing a certain few things.

Certain few things? Hm, I manage to surf, e-mail, listen to music, manage photos, edit video, edit audio, edit photos, torrent, encode this and that, create documents, etc. I know I missed something...

Windows is great because it's compatable with everything and can do everything I want to do reliably. If I were just going to do e-mail and surf the web and post on a web forum about how much Windows sucked I would get OSX (and I do plan on getting a powerbook when they release the x86 models, as long as you can install windows on them). But for my needs I NEED Windows. And because I'm literate I can educate myself into not screwing up my own computer so Windows XP works extremly well.

That's...good for you. Just like using a Mac is good for me since I can do what I want to do more effectively than on Windows. Perhaps your workflow NEEDS Windows, but mine doesn't, and I think that a majority of computer users don't actually need Windows, since the Mac is completely viable as an alternative.

Another feature that will be included in Vista that I read about, in which I really like is a gaming benchmarking program. This benchmarking program will benchmark your computer based on direct x performance. Game developers can use this benchmarking tool to automatically set reccomended settings based upon what your computer has. Does OSX have this (serious question) as in my book that's wicked ****ing cool and extremly useful.

I'm not a game developer, so perhaps someone could speak to the tune of this quote. I'm pretty sure there are calls to get what the user is using, but I think it's much easier to depend on QE or CI, since those have set standards by Apple that are either there or not there.

Another feature is Windows XP will automatically tweak itself to give you the most performance based upon your hardware. Another wicked cool setting. Does OSX have these features (I'm not saying it doesn't it's a serious question.)

I'm pretty sure it does, since if a Mac has a certain technology available to it (such as multiple processors, QE, etc.) then it can take advantage of those things. I'm not particularly sure if an OS "tweaks" itself depending on your hardware. I think that if things are available, they're taken advantage of.

I know I come off as argumentative, but I'm trying to come across with a point. You sound like a reasonable person that uses what they use because it's what fits them best, and I'm the same way. So, I hope I'm not coming off like I think you're stupid or anything, because I don't. I'm just providing a different perspective. But the bottom line is that some people use Windows because it's best for them. Some people use Windows because they're lost sheep that never knew that there are better alternatives out there. I think that there are those types of users for most everything.
-Chase

[imz]

but I must say, I'm glad they got rid of the big green start button.

...it's still there (see pic 7).

[Freyqq]

well..now windows seems more like osx..lol..i wonder where they got half their ideas from?

[dsharits]

well..now windows seems more like osx..lol..i wonder where they got half their ideas from?
They innovated everything, what do you think? :rolleyes: ;)

[Freyqq]

They innovated everything, what do you think? :rolleyes: ;)

well..i mean look at the window of the documents folder. Except for a few cosmetic details and some color changes..its EXACTLY the same.

[slackpacker]

So far lets just say Apple Has Nothing to Worry about....its still windows XP
with a whole host of disjointed features. Vista is nooothing like OS X.

Keep the faith Mac users.


SP

[mugwump]

Keep in mind folks, that this is the forward step for MS Windows for the next several years.

I can't even begin to imagine the mac innovations during that time.

[Chrispy]

I have never really "hated" microsoft products and I have worked with them as a service tech for years and years. However, mac OS X is the better OS now and probably after Vista. I don't see much changing from XP to Vista besides the added eye candy. I remember when XP was in beta I used it and had less trouble then than I do now. This will likey happen wish Vista as well. When it first comes out it will be fairly virus free... but as time passes..... things will likey change.

[briand05]

Look at the screenshot on this page of Vista's virtual folders, it looks very similiar to tiger's Smart Folders.

Vista Virtual Folders (http://news.zdnet.com/2300-9590_22-5806815-3.html)

[yg17]

I don't work for MS, but I know what's going on because I work for someone that deals with them.


And would that be your friend who works at CompUSA for minimum wage selling Windows PC's to unsuspecting customers who think he's a computer expert because he demonstrated that the CD-ROM drive can be used as a cupholder?

[remingtonhill]

wow, this looks like the final demise of microsoft. you know I really didn't hate M$ untill they started using their monopoly to bully governments... no company should do that. thats just way to freeking huge.

Kind of like the way apple forces it's loyal customers to buy overpriced, outdated and underperforming (but pretty!) computers to run it's OSX.

Sorry, had to say it.

And by the way, does anybody feel the same way I do about Tiger being a very weak upgrade to Panther? Sure, the widgets are handy, but as a user of OSX for work, I don't find much compelling about the 10.4 upgrade. I don't care about "automator" and "Spotlight." And I know most of the real world non geek users do either.

Perhaps tiger should have been Called OSX 10.3 SE.

Let the flaming begin. (by the way I prefer OSX to XP, just dissapointed lately)

;)

PS, sorry for the spelling errors. This post was brought to you via Windows XP. Where do you want to go today?

[MegaSignal]

...it's still there (see pic 7).

So let me get this straight:

After all these years (since Windows95, actually), I still have to click the following to get my PC to restart:

Start > Shut Down My Computer > Restart > OK

Puh-leez...the illogic of this still annoys me to no end.

[MegaSignal]

Again, you people need to be more objective. OSX is great if you only doing a certain few things. Windows is great because it's compatable with everything and can do everything I want to do reliably. If I were just going to do e-mail and surf the web and post on a web forum about how much Windows sucked I would get OSX (and I do plan on getting a powerbook when they release the x86 models, as long as you can install windows on them). But for my needs I NEED Windows. And because I'm literate I can educate myself into not screwing up my own computer so Windows XP works extremly well.


With all due respect, Mr. Johnson, I must take issue with your statement.

I have a beautiful little PC with which I find most pleasant to use; Firefox is fast, it's very quiet, and with the right security-ware, I believe/feel/have warm fuzzies that it's virtually safe whilst plugged into the 'net.

Fine. Great. Now, I wanted to do some semi-pro audio editing, burn some red book compliant CDs with crossfades, edit some video (without the disc fragmenting almost immediately), and then begin to look for some software to exract previously encoded movies (my own) from earlier DVDs for further editing, and download more than two files at once on my browser.

$1200 later, all I can do with my PC (OK - I'm stubborn - even to the point of throwing good money after bad) is surf the web (safely, I think...) and...well...that's about it.

Don't get me wrong - I'm keeping my PC, it works OK for what I do with it - but being stuck with this bill has me very disappointed with XP's offerings; it doesn't look like Vista will alleviate this, either. So far, OSX: 1; XP:0.

Back on topic:

The screen shots of Vista were very informative. However, from the looks of things, nothing much has changed from the persepective of the GUI; more interesting to me will be if there are any changes to NTFS, whether or not there will be integrated security systems, and finally, how much overhead is required to run the new system.

Thanks for listening.

[Freyqq]

Kind of like the way apple forces it's loyal customers to buy overpriced, outdated and underperforming (but pretty!) computers to run it's OSX.

Sorry, had to say it.

And by the way, does anybody feel the same way I do about Tiger being a very weak upgrade to Panther? Sure, the widgets are handy, but as a user of OSX for work, I don't find much compelling about the 10.4 upgrade. I don't care about "automator" and "Spotlight." And I know most of the real world non geek users do either.

Perhaps tiger should have been Called OSX 10.3 SE.

Let the flaming begin. (by the way I prefer OSX to XP, just dissapointed lately)

;)

PS, sorry for the spelling errors. This post was brought to you via Windows XP. Where do you want to go today?

unfortunately..i agree with you..

How much more powerful have macs become over the last 2 years (hardware wise)? Not very compared to the PC world. 2 years ago when G5 came out..macs were the most powerful machines around. Both the G5 and the G4 have not really gone anywhere in the last 2 years. Until they switch to intel..they're kinda bottlenecked.......................

[MegaSignal]

How much more powerful have macs become over the last 2 years (hardware wise)? Not very compared to the PC world. 2 years ago when G5 came out..macs were the most powerful machines around. Both the G5 and the G4 have not really gone anywhere in the last 2 years. Until they switch to intel..they're kinda bottlenecked.......................

I dunno - I get the gut feeling that AMD, Intel, Moto, and IBM have at least slowed down quite a bit with regard to Moore's law, et al; my XP's 3.2GHz Northwood is no more "snappier" than my sunflower iMac at 1.25GHz running 10.3.9. Whether or not this is the brick wall that everyone's been talking about is anyone's guess. (And I still think that Apple's move to Intel has more to do with portables/laptops than anything else - the Next Big Thing)

Hence, I believe that the next evolution in speed will come from the software/OS end of things. Again, I ask the question with regard to Vista: What's under the hood? How much legacy code will be abandoned?

[mkrishnan]

I dunno - I get the gut feeling that AMD, Intel, Moto, and IBM have at least slowed down quite a bit with regard to Moore's law, et al; my XP's 3.2GHz Northwood is no more "snappier" than my sunflower iMac at 1.25GHz running 10.3.9. Whether or not this is the brick wall that everyone's been talking about is anyone's guess. (And I still think that Apple's move to Intel has more to do with portables/laptops than anything else - the Next Big Thing)

Hence, I believe that the next evolution in speed will come from the software/OS end of things. Again, I ask the question with regard to Vista: What's under the hood? How much legacy code will be abandoned?

Actually, I think you have it almost backwards, although you are very close. That Northwood *is* a lot, lot faster than the G4 in your iMac, for many things. The OS and the other components of the motherboard / system may fail to deliver the appearance of that speed improvement to you, but CPUs themselves have advanced significantly, if not necessarily at the full Moore's law level, over that time period.

But what I mean when I say you have it very close is that to continue to show the appearance of rapid incremental speed improvement, more and more work in the OS and motherboard and component side will be needed. Especially things like Video Cards, as more and more work gets offloaded to them. Computers are swinging back to the Amiga way of thinking, in some sense, where the CPU has a reduced role in executing major computing tasks.

[MrJohnson]

Forced? There's plenty of games out there for a Mac and they run beautifully on today's hardware. I'm not a computer game fan, so I've always thought that dedicated boxes are much cheaper and better for games.

There are a certain few games that are not avaliable for OSX which are good enough to stray away from OSX because of. E.G. Halflife2 and Battlefield2. The Game consoles are only updated every 4-5 years. During this time they loose the ability to support new physics and graphics engines which gives the advantage back to the computer user. Plus I have better control over my games with a mouse and keyboard than I do a controller.



Just because some people don't tweak an OS a lot doesn't mean they're retards, and there's plenty of "retards" that do tweak their OS. Frankly, I think your use of retard is offending. ;)

I was actually refering to people using Windows. People who just push yes to every pop-up that asks if they want a million dollars.



It doesn't have amazing gaming support, but perhaps amazing games. Did I mention the titles available for the Mac? However, DirectX is easy to code for and inviting to developers, since most people have Windows. No contest there.

The best games for OSX are: Doom III, WoW, and BF1942. Doom3 sucked. Period. BF1942 is getting old to the point of not being fun but WoW is still a mighty great game. I'll give you that. Oh yeah. Starcraft kicks ass too.



Certain few things? Hm, I manage to surf, e-mail, listen to music, manage photos, edit video, edit audio, edit photos, torrent, encode this and that, create documents, etc. I know I missed something...

I didn't meant to be offensive. All I meant was there are certain things that you plain ass can't do on OSX. I realize you can do a majority of things on OSX.


That's...good for you. Just like using a Mac is good for me since I can do what I want to do more effectively than on Windows. Perhaps your workflow NEEDS Windows, but mine doesn't, and I think that a majority of computer users don't actually need Windows, since the Mac is completely viable as an alternative.

That was the point of my posts was to show that Windows doesn't suck to some people. The only reason it sucks to some of you is because there are certain things that you don't do that I need or want to do.


I'm pretty sure it does, since if a Mac has a certain technology available to it (such as multiple processors, QE, etc.) then it can take advantage of those things. I'm not particularly sure if an OS "tweaks" itself depending on your hardware. I think that if things are available, they're taken advantage of.


I know I come off as argumentative, but I'm trying to come across with a point. You sound like a reasonable person that uses what they use because it's what fits them best, and I'm the same way. So, I hope I'm not coming off like I think you're stupid or anything, because I don't. I'm just providing a different perspective. But the bottom line is that some people use Windows because it's best for them. Some people use Windows because they're lost sheep that never knew that there are better alternatives out there. I think that there are those types of users for most everything.

I could use both. I LOVE OSX. My point was that there are certain things that Windows does infact do better and that gives it an advantage over OSX. Giving Windows these new features makes it great for people who need these certain functions.

[MrJohnson]

With all due respect, Mr. Johnson, I must take issue with your statement.

I have a beautiful little PC with which I find most pleasant to use; Firefox is fast, it's very quiet, and with the right security-ware, I believe/feel/have warm fuzzies that it's virtually safe whilst plugged into the 'net.

Fine. Great. Now, I wanted to do some semi-pro audio editing, burn some red book compliant CDs with crossfades, edit some video (without the disc fragmenting almost immediately), and then begin to look for some software to exract previously encoded movies (my own) from earlier DVDs for further editing, and download more than two files at once on my browser.

$1200 later, all I can do with my PC (OK - I'm stubborn - even to the point of throwing good money after bad) is surf the web (safely, I think...) and...well...that's about it.

Don't get me wrong - I'm keeping my PC, it works OK for what I do with it - but being stuck with this bill has me very disappointed with XP's offerings; it doesn't look like Vista will alleviate this, either. So far, OSX: 1; XP:0.

Back on topic:

The screen shots of Vista were very informative. However, from the looks of things, nothing much has changed from the persepective of the GUI; more interesting to me will be if there are any changes to NTFS, whether or not there will be integrated security systems, and finally, how much overhead is required to run the new system.

Thanks for listening.


Well maybe I didn't read that correctly but..

Actually you could do all of that on a $1200 computer. You simply spent your money wrong. I you had bought a dual core processor, extra ram, and a decent video card all of that would be completly possible. Yes Apple does have better software cheaper for some of that stuff but you can do it on your windows powered computer which was my point. I have the ability to do all of that and I don't understand why you don't.

[zflauaus]

Windows "Vista" has lost a lot of the functionality that was supposed to make this the "Best Windows Operating System of all time." Like the folks on the TWiT podcast said in episode 14, "Vista" is becoming a bigger joke than ME, and we all know how ME was. :eek: :eek: And the rumor that you are supposed to have a "digitally signed monitor" to have "the best media experience" is a big joke. The next gen filesystem is gone. This is why I am switching to the Mac. Mac OS X will keep building on where Windows has fallen short. I'm sorry Microsoft, but you lost a user a long time ago.

[Tamer Brad]

I love how people say "Windows is great for running games!" when you are practically not even using the OS, especially the GUI, while playing the game ... the game is only designed to work on the Windows system. Windows doesn't do anything amazing with it at all. We should not be praising Windows for its "great support" of games, but scorning developers for their abandonment of Apple consumers.

[SiliconAddict]

...And leaked to thousands of spyware, virus and trojan horse programers. Windows Vista will be the first OS to come preloaded with viri to keep Symantec and other anti-virus software makers in cash for years to come.

I'm doubting that. Finally MS is going to have user accounts run as power users instead of administrators. This is cut down bit time on the number of viruses or at the very least it won't be as easy to crack windows. That and "supposedly MS has been talking up the C word A LOT over the last year. Compartmentalizing segments of code so, again, theoretically crap like blaster can’t happen again. Time will tell if this is the case and if they really have made progress on security. The one thing that makes me hopeful is that they opted to drop features off the OS. This IMHO speak volumes to where MS is focusing this time around. In the past MS has stuffed loads of bloated features into the OS and said screw security. I personally would be more then happy if the only thing that came from WV was a more secure platform. They can always add other crap later.
The one big thing that is irking me right now and I should have seen it coming a mile away. Steve Ballbuster has a small article on c|net about how more “expensive” versions of Windows and office are on their way. Umm clue to MS. Don’t start patting yourself on the back too early you morons. :rolleyes:

[SiliconAddict]

I love how people say "Windows is great for running games!" when you are practically not even using the OS, especially the GUI, while playing the game ... the game is only designed to work on the Windows system. Windows doesn't do anything amazing with it at all. We should not be praising Windows for its "great support" of games, but scorning developers for their abandonment of Apple consumers.


Umm drivers also have a lot to do with it. Be it video card drivers (Which are worlds ahead of most of Apple's stuff for obvious reason) or because MS has a pretty damn robust API set with Direct X.

[jinzo012]

I just recieved Internet Explorer 7 Beta 1 and IT IS A COPY OF SAFARI an absolute copy. for example the Google search is now integrated and is in the same spot as the safari. When the Search field isn't selected and is empty the Words "Google" appear in faded grey colours, and the Tabbed feature looks pretty familiar the only thing I can see wasn't copied was the RSS button (which is now in the main icons bar) which of course isn't as nice, and it seems that the ways the icon of the website shows up is in the exact same spot as it is in Safari.

Why doesn't Apple sue? this isn't the only time MS has copied Apple.

[JFreak]

im coming from the fact that it is not in the vested interest of most hackers to go after an OS that has only about 5% market share.

market share has nothing to do with this issue. there are very little hackers that want to hack and take advantage of their precious darling unix operating system. there are some, but most hackers that know about unix always contribute their findings to the unix community in general. so whenever somebody finds a weakness, it is reported and fixed. but whenever somebody finds a hole in windows, a hundred new virii is distributed. there IS a difference between unix and the rest of the bunch, and in my opinion it was THE wisest move apple has ever made to begin using unix core instead of a new core of their own.

I know that UNIX is far more secure then Windows will ever be. But throught the use of virus scanners, spyware removers and other programs, it is possible to have a Windows computer that is devoid of malware. I know becuase I managed to do that for an entire school year.

what is the point of buying new powerful computers if they must be loaded with performance-crippling applications? do you even understand how big is that performance hit? it is so big developers cannot afford it!! we're talking about 20% and more.

and you managed to stay "clean" for a year? wo-hoo. unix has been up and running since about 1960 with only singular security issues. windows gets compromised more often every single minute. compare about a minute to about half-a-century...

I was just saying that if the market share roles were reversed, Apple would be the target of more code-slingers like Microsoft is right now. It is simple logic when you assume these people want to do as much damage as they possibley can, so naturally they attack the big guy. Thats all i was trying to say.

no, you're wrong. take a look at linux, which has (a wild guess) three times as much market share apple has, and they are both just as secure. geeks love unix and no market share revolution will ever change that.

[doppelganger]

I just recieved Internet Explorer 7 Beta 1 and IT IS A COPY OF SAFARI an absolute copy. for example the Google search is now integrated and is in the same spot as the safari. When the Search field isn't selected and is empty the Words "Google" appear in faded grey colours, and the Tabbed feature looks pretty familiar the only thing I can see wasn't copied was the RSS button (which is now in the main icons bar) which of course isn't as nice, and it seems that the ways the icon of the website shows up is in the exact same spot as it is in Safari.

Why doesn't Apple sue? this isn't the only time MS has copied Apple.

actually i just read that the second beta version of IE will have RSS changes. so they just haven't gotten around to ripping that part off yet
http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/software/internet/0,39024165,39210992,00.htm

also, i see what you mean about the search bar. here's a screen cap incase anyone wants

[JFreak]

because I'm not ignorant I can keep it clean and malware/spyware/virus free

did you know that 90% of people are ignorant? and if you didn't doesn't that make you ignorant too :D

[JFreak]

But the close/minimise/maximise buttons - whose bright idea was it to shift them left??

it was Larry's, John's, Steve's and Bruce's idea. the ORIGINAL idea by the people that created the buttons in the first place. it was microsoft's idea to shift them right as they perhaps thought it would not have looked like copying then.

didn't you know that macintosh gui is a lot older than the windows gui? microsoft copied apple, not the other way around.

[JFreak]

Since I play games regularly I'm pretty much forced into using Windows.

no, you're not. there are always the consoles, which imho offer better gaming experience than any general-purpose computer. you don't have to use windows for games, but instead you have chosen to.

since I'm not a retard I learn to tweak my operating system to work for me.

consider yourself a power user. most of the people are "retards".

Windows is great because it's compatable with everything and can do everything I want to do reliably.

now, YOU have to get objective here. this is just the reason why windows SUCKS big time. windows supports crappy hardware and therefore becaure cheap people buy cheap crappy hardware, that makes the whole computing experience crappy as hell. that's not acceptable in my book.

But for my needs I NEED Windows. And because I'm literate I can educate myself into not screwing up my own computer so Windows XP works extremly well.

you don't need windows for gaming, period. and if you have to care about "not screwing up" your computer, doesn't that mean your computer is weak?

[autrefois]

Does anyone remember this picture from Tiger release spectacle? :D

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26949

Yes I do, I almost forgot about that one. :)

So I guess that means we can't complain about Microsoft stealing ideas from Tiger: Apple actually TOLD them to! :D

[JFreak]

The one thing that makes me hopeful is that they opted to drop features off the OS. This IMHO speak volumes to where MS is focusing this time around. In the past MS has stuffed loads of bloated features into the OS and said screw security. I personally would be more then happy if the only thing that came from WV was a more secure platform. They can always add other crap later.

FINALLY, somebody i can agree with :)

[JFreak]

I just recieved Internet Explorer 7 Beta 1 and IT IS A COPY OF SAFARI an absolute copy. for example the Google search is now integrated and is in the same spot as the safari. When the Search field isn't selected and is empty the Words "Google" appear in faded grey colours, and the Tabbed feature looks pretty familiar the only thing I can see wasn't copied was the RSS button (which is now in the main icons bar) which of course isn't as nice, and it seems that the ways the icon of the website shows up is in the exact same spot as it is in Safari.

Why doesn't Apple sue? this isn't the only time MS has copied Apple.

umm, those are not safari-exclusive features, and if i remember correctly, not even safari-first features. firefox has those, too, although safari has them most beautifully implemented.

nobody could sue microsoft on this one.

[MrJohnson]

Windows "Vista" has lost a lot of the functionality that was supposed to make this the "Best Windows Operating System of all time." Like the folks on the TWiT podcast said in episode 14, "Vista" is becoming a bigger joke than ME, and we all know how ME was. :eek: :eek: And the rumor that you are supposed to have a "digitally signed monitor" to have "the best media experience" is a big joke. The next gen filesystem is gone. This is why I am switching to the Mac. Mac OS X will keep building on where Windows has fallen short. I'm sorry Microsoft, but you lost a user a long time ago.


Actually that DRM is going to built into the DVD. If the operating system doesn't support it, it won't play. Anyways it only affects CRT displays that arn't digitally signed. The DRM will be cracked regardless so it's useless to bitch about it. Blame the RIAA and MPAA instead of Microsoft. Or how about blame yourself for buying the DVD.

I love how people say "Windows is great for running games!" when you are practically not even using the OS, especially the GUI, while playing the game ... the game is only designed to work on the Windows system. Windows doesn't do anything amazing with it at all. We should not be praising Windows for its "great support" of games, but scorning developers for their abandonment of Apple consumers.

How about you blame Apple for not making decent drivers for video cards. Or how about blame them for not making something compairable to Direct X (Open GL isn't good enough.)

I just recieved Internet Explorer 7 Beta 1 and IT IS A COPY OF SAFARI an absolute copy. for example the Google search is now integrated and is in the same spot as the safari. When the Search field isn't selected and is empty the Words "Google" appear in faded grey colours, and the Tabbed feature looks pretty familiar the only thing I can see wasn't copied was the RSS button (which is now in the main icons bar) which of course isn't as nice, and it seems that the ways the icon of the website shows up is in the exact same spot as it is in Safari.

Why doesn't Apple sue? this isn't the only time MS has copied Apple.

How about Opera had thoes features way before safari? Thoes features are common place these days. Get over it.

[MrJohnson]

no, you're not. there are always the consoles, which imho offer better gaming experience than any general-purpose computer. you don't have to use windows for games, but instead you have chosen to.

HAHA show me one console that can play WoW. Show me one that can play HL2. Show me one that can play BF2. I have chosen to because THE BEST GAMES are for the computer. Point ended. Also a Mouse and keyboard offer the greatest ammount of control compaired to a game pad.



now, YOU have to get objective here. this is just the reason why windows SUCKS big time. windows supports crappy hardware and therefore becaure cheap people buy cheap crappy hardware, that makes the whole computing experience crappy as hell. that's not acceptable in my book.

Yes, ok. Because Microsoft is at fault for the hardware that end users buy? Good point there. The beauty of Windows is the choice in hardware.



you don't need windows for gaming, period. and if you have to care about "not screwing up" your computer, doesn't that mean your computer is weak?


I need windows to play the games I want. I need windows to play some of the best games on the market. And no, having to care about not screwing up my operating system doesn't make it weak. You have to care about not messing up your operating system regardless of which OS you choose.

[JFreak]

You have to care about not messing up your operating system regardless of which OS you choose.

to some degree, yes. but i can still let my 72-year-old granddad and 4-year-old cousin use my powerbook and be sure that the most radical operating system tweak they can do is to change audio volume and display brightness. or let the battery drain by unplugging the power cord.

i wouldn't even dream of supporting any windows computer they might use...

[PCMacUser]

I just recieved Internet Explorer 7 Beta 1 and IT IS A COPY OF SAFARI an absolute copy. for example the Google search is now integrated and is in the same spot as the safari. When the Search field isn't selected and is empty the Words "Google" appear in faded grey colours, and the Tabbed feature looks pretty familiar the only thing I can see wasn't copied was the RSS button (which is now in the main icons bar) which of course isn't as nice, and it seems that the ways the icon of the website shows up is in the exact same spot as it is in Safari.

Why doesn't Apple sue? this isn't the only time MS has copied Apple.
Hmm, it looks MUCH more like Firefox to me! The search bar in the same place, the forward and back icons, the tabbed icons, etc...

Maybe it's because so many other browsers can lay claim to this particular 'look', that nobody can take action against them ha ha...

[conditionals]

I just recieved Internet Explorer 7 Beta 1 and IT IS A COPY OF SAFARI an absolute copy. for example the Google search is now integrated and is in the same spot as the safari. When the Search field isn't selected and is empty the Words "Google" appear in faded grey colours, and the Tabbed feature looks pretty familiar the only thing I can see wasn't copied was the RSS button (which is now in the main icons bar) which of course isn't as nice, and it seems that the ways the icon of the website shows up is in the exact same spot as it is in Safari.

Why doesn't Apple sue? this isn't the only time MS has copied Apple.

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG

Now have a look at firefox, which IE7 has more in common with. Let's all be smart and not resort to microsoft bashing.

[Evangelion]

+++
- everything on it seems to be ripped from Tiger! just take a look at the search symbol, it's 1:1 rip-off of Spotlight symbol!

It's a magnifying-glass. Like it or not, that's just about the best icon that represents searching.

[Evangelion]

no, you're not. there are always the consoles, which imho
offer better gaming experience than any general-purpose computer. you d
on't have to use windows for games, but instead you have chosen to.

This might come as a shock to you, but consoles absolutely suck for certain types of games. Good luck finding something like War in Russia, Combat Mission 1, 2, & 3, Steel Panthers, Civilization, Europa Universalis, Flashpoint Germany IL-2 Sturmovik etc. etc. on a console. And even if you did, playing those games on that dinky controller would be pain!

Many people (inlcuding you) seem to think that "if you are a gamer, you should get a console". Well, I'm a gamer, and buying a console has NEVER crossed my mind. Reason being that the type of games I play are not available on consoles. And if they were, gameplay would not be nowhere near as good as it is on a PC. I have not "chosen" to use PC/Windows for gaming instead of consoles. I just like certain types of games, and those games are not available on console. And looking at the direction the consoles are going, they never will be.

If you like racing-sims, sports-games, simple roleplaying-games, beat 'em ups and the like, then go right ahead and get a console. But don't for a second think that consoles are the ultimate gaming-machines. As far as I'm concerned, they are far from it.

you don't need windows for gaming, period.

For all intents and purposes: yes you do. If you claim otherwise, you do not know what you are talking about. Of course if by "gaming" you refer to some racing-sims and the like alone, then you could use a console just fine. But I couldn't care less about those games. The types of games I play are practically exclusive to PC, and that means Windows.

[slackpacker]

Kind of like the way apple forces it's loyal customers to buy overpriced, outdated and underperforming (but pretty!) computers to run it's OSX.

Sorry, had to say it.

And by the way, does anybody feel the same way I do about Tiger being a very weak upgrade to Panther? Sure, the widgets are handy, but as a user of OSX for work, I don't find much compelling about the 10.4 upgrade. I don't care about "automator" and "Spotlight." And I know most of the real world non geek users do either.

Perhaps tiger should have been Called OSX 10.3 SE.

Let the flaming begin. (by the way I prefer OSX to XP, just dissapointed lately)

;)

PS, sorry for the spelling errors. This post was brought to you via Windows XP. Where do you want to go today?


Hey when I get a call from my friend who has been taunting me with his new 64bit AMD powerhouse with dual SLI and 600 gigs of raided hds.... and he tells me after a month he lost all his work because the raid went belly up .... I thank my slow over priced machine that has been working with no issues for a year and a half. Plus my system was No slower than his for doing any task....


Also OS X is a much better upgrade than what MS is calling Vista... WE are SOOOOO far ahead of Windows its not funny.

SP

[slackpacker]

I just recieved Internet Explorer 7 Beta 1 and IT IS A COPY OF SAFARI an absolute copy. for example the Google search is now integrated and is in the same spot as the safari. When the Search field isn't selected and is empty the Words "Google" appear in faded grey colours, and the Tabbed feature looks pretty familiar the only thing I can see wasn't copied was the RSS button (which is now in the main icons bar) which of course isn't as nice, and it seems that the ways the icon of the website shows up is in the exact same spot as it is in Safari.

Why doesn't Apple sue? this isn't the only time MS has copied Apple.


If you look at Firefox, Opera and others they are doing the same thing with the google search box.... Plus again.... as I stated before.... Vista is right and IE7 right now are a bunch of Disjointed features thrown at you with no reason or rhyme. IE7 is just starting to catch up to Safari... and Its NO Safari.

SP

[slackpacker]

This might come as a shock to you, but consoles absolutely suck for certain types of games. Good luck finding something like War in Russia, Combat Mission 1, 2, & 3, Steel Panthers, Civilization, Europa Universalis, Flashpoint Germany IL-2 Sturmovik etc. etc. on a console. And even if you did, playing those games on that dinky controller would be pain!

Many people (inlcuding you) seem to think that "if you are a gamer, you should get a console". Well, I'm a gamer, and buying a console has NEVER crossed my mind. Reason being that the type of games I play are not available on consoles. And if they were, gameplay would not be nowhere near as good as it is on a PC. I have not "chosen" to use PC/Windows for gaming instead of consoles. I just like certain types of games, and those games are not available on console. And looking at the direction the consoles are going, they never will be.

If you like racing-sims, sports-games, simple roleplaying-games, beat 'em ups and the like, then go right ahead and get a console. But don't for a second think that consoles are the ultimate gaming-machines. As far as I'm concerned, they are far from it.



For all intents and purposes: yes you do. If you claim otherwise, you do not know what you are talking about. Of course if by "gaming" you refer to some racing-sims and the like alone, then you could use a console just fine. But I couldn't care less about those games. The types of games I play are practically exclusive to PC, and that means Windows.


So you do what I did ..... get a windows machine for Games and use OS X for really everyday work.. I have my PC just for games and things I can't get for OS X and thats it.... I hate every minute that I have to use it..(it just feels different) as it stands Vista still is no replacement for OS X.... Oh its great for the gamer or a guy who does not have a Mac but if you do you will know what I am saying.

There is a difference.... I am an avid windows user from the days of DOS and 3.11 I have had My Mac's for the last Yr & 1/2 so don't tell me I have no basis in saying that. I built my PC I have had every Graphics card known and Have all the latest gear for gaming.... I just simply go back to MAC for my daily use... surfing, Bloging, Video Editing storing all my important info that I need fast.

[MrSugar]

According to early reports of IE7, there is very little difference between IE6. The browser still fails almost every single CSS bug form IE6. Literally IE7 looks to be IE6 with tabs, supposed security enhancements, and RSS reading. I just don't understand how the biggest company in computer software can't seem to get web standards under their belt. Open source browsers support standards from the get / go, Microsoft doesn't, and then they don't even fix the bugs with updates or patches. Put simply, they just don't care, no matter how many angry developers there are!

I think the only reason I will ever get a PC is to run linux, test CSS layouts on IE win, and play games.

[JFreak]

I just don't understand how the biggest company in computer software can't seem to get web standards under their belt.

as long as they have their market share, they have no reason to implement any changes whatsoever. as soon as -say- half of the idiot exploder user base would suddently switch using firefox 'cause it's better, THEN they would have incentive to improve their product.

individuals are easier to convince, big enterprises are tougher. but bottom line is, people should just stop using IE, that's the only way to force real improvements.

[Evangelion]

So you do what I did ..... get a windows machine for Games and use OS X for really everyday work

Well, I have a PC with W2K for games, and Linux for "real work". But for most users, Windows is more than enough for their tasks. Expecting users to have two computers is a bit much, when they can manage just fine with just one. Well, I do have several machines, but I'm not ordinary computer-user :). And I do have a Mac Mini of playing around and experimentation.

There is a difference.... I am an avid windows user from the days of DOS and 3.11 I have had My Mac's for the last Yr & 1/2 so don't tell me I have no basis in saying that. I built my PC I have had every Graphics card known and Have all the latest gear for gaming.... I just simply go back to MAC for my daily use... surfing, Bloging, Video Editing storing all my important info that I need fast.

And most people can do those tasks in Windows as well.

[JFreak]

And most people can do those tasks in Windows as well.

err... you mean "most people that actually use computers", right? from my experience, most people don't want to use computers AT ALL, because they think computer=windows and have learnt windows is hard to use. most people try to avoid using computers if they can, because of windows.

on the other hand, EVERYONE that i have shown my powerbook have just been amazed about how easy it is to do what they want to do, and have instantly got interested in having one themselves, too. when they have used my powerbook for 15 minutes, they always ask "why on earth windows has been made so difficult to use, as this different system of yours feels very easy?" - well, what can you say :) that is a regular comment from the folks i call "regular people" and believe me, those people outnumber us computer literate power users like 100:1 or more.

most people just want to write a letter, manage their digital photos, use bank services or check today's tv programs. they don't want to use a computer or browse the internet. computer is a tool which shouldn't be an obstacle. but in the real world (i mean, outside us computer literate power users) people realize that windows keeps them from doing what they want to do and also that by using a macintosh they feel like the computer is helping them to finish what they began.

it's really a huge difference. really.

[conditionals]

So... what does everyone think of the name "Vista"?

[kalisphoenix]

Nothing says loving like an XvsXP debate.

A common argument (on this thread as well as on the forum I'm on most often) is that Windows is intended for power users. Windows requires "locking down," "tightening up," and other procedures that "ignorant" "retards" can't do. That's the reason for viruses, spyware, adware, and Britney Spears: that most people are simply too stupid to lock down Windows.

This is irritating, but aside from being irritating it's counterproductive to the MS lackey cause. It's assumed that Windows is an OS for everyone (generally because Windows is run by practically everyone), and it's asinine to think that a company with as many billions as I have cigarettes is incapable of setting secure options as default. It's fairly simple to do this. OS X's various security options are generally on by default... why is it that securing your computer requires a power user, while every other OS comes secure by default?

That's the most penetrating criticism of Windows, I think -- that none of its users can think of a good rationale for this ludicrous behavior, so they state flat-out that only idiots have problems with security in Windows. When, in fact, it is Microsoft's extremely poor design decisions that are to blame.

Let's say I buy a house. It's at a fair price, but unfortunately it has no walls or roof (granted, the house came with a big pile of lumber where the fireplace should be). What sort of ridicule would you hurl my direction if I stated (with an air of superiority) that only idiots can't build their own houses, and that you are living in your particular house because you lack the ability to build one?

If I was a gamer, I might give a **** about Windows. I'm not, and I don't. I don't see any reason at all to run Windows. It already makes my fiancee's computer run at 1/3 of the speed at which it should run, and yeah, I know a few things about securing Windows too. Good for us. We're real champions, aren't we?

[iMan]

Hmmmm... there something about this new GUI I like... oh yes... finally the trashcan is in the right place! :D

http://images.betanews.com/albums/42/222.jpg

[conditionals]

Nothing says loving like an XvsXP debate.

A common argument (on this thread as well as on the forum I'm on most often) is that Windows is intended for power users. Windows requires "locking down," "tightening up," and other procedures that "ignorant" "retards" can't do. That's the reason for viruses, spyware, adware, and Britney Spears: that most people are simply too stupid to lock down Windows.

This is irritating, but aside from being irritating it's counterproductive to the MS lackey cause. It's assumed that Windows is an OS for everyone (generally because Windows is run by practically everyone), and it's asinine to think that a company with as many billions as I have cigarettes is incapable of setting secure options as default. It's fairly simple to do this. OS X's various security options are generally on by default... why is it that securing your computer requires a power user, while every other OS comes secure by default?

That's the most penetrating criticism of Windows, I think -- that none of its users can think of a good rationale for this ludicrous behavior, so they state flat-out that only idiots have problems with security in Windows. When, in fact, it is Microsoft's extremely poor design decisions that are to blame.

Let's say I buy a house. It's at a fair price, but unfortunately it has no walls or roof (granted, the house came with a big pile of lumber where the fireplace should be). What sort of ridicule would you hurl my direction if I stated (with an air of superiority) that only idiots can't build their own houses, and that you are living in your particular house because you lack the ability to build one?

If I was a gamer, I might give a **** about Windows. I'm not, and I don't. I don't see any reason at all to run Windows. It already makes my fiancee's computer run at 1/3 of the speed at which it should run, and yeah, I know a few things about securing Windows too. Good for us. We're real champions, aren't we?

Plus, OSX is pretty.

[AidenShaw]

Start > Shut Down My Computer > Restart > OK

Puh-leez...the illogic of this still annoys me to no end.
So please tell me why dragging a device to the trash ejects it instead of deleting the data on it?

By the way, you start activities through the "Start" menu, so that is a perfectly logical place to go to start the process of shutting down.

[iMan]

So please tell me why dragging a device to the trash ejects it instead of deleting the data on it?

By the way, you start activities through the "Start" menu, so that is a perfectly logical place to go to start the process of shutting down.

So you go to start to start the process of shutting down, choose shut down computer (obviously) to get to restart... this is only perfect logic as long as you say so - it would not occur to me intuitively that I should start a process to shut down or restart. I am looking for a way to END my processes (which apparently under Windows is a process in itself then...)

btw: there is no logic in dragging harddisks to the trashcan - it horrified me the first time I did it (I remember I had to enter the floppy again to check if it was really ok :) )
At least the symbol changes in OS X now... myself I have changed that habit now, using either the keyboard or finder contextual menu (as I have a buttoned up mouse :)

[Evangelion]

err... you mean "most people that actually use computers", right? from my experience, most people don't want to use computers AT ALL, because they think computer=windows and have learnt windows is hard to use. most people try to avoid using computers if they can, because of windows.

Well, just about everyone I know can surf the web just fine on a Windows. Same goes for emailing, instant-messaging and the like. And fact remains that in the western world, just about everyone has a computer available, and about 90+% of them use Windows. So clearly they CAN get their tasks done in Windows.

This menatlity of "Gah! You can't do anything on Windows! you need OS X!" is pretty overblown. Yes, OS X is better of the two. But still, overwhelming majority use Windows, and they get their jobs done in Windows just fine.

on the other hand, EVERYONE that i have shown my powerbook have just been amazed about how easy it is to do what they want to do, and have instantly got interested in having one themselves, too. when they have used my powerbook for 15 minutes, they always ask "why on earth windows has been made so difficult to use, as this different system of yours feels very easy?" - well, what can you say :) that is a regular comment from the folks i call "regular people" and believe me, those people outnumber us computer literate power users like 100:1 or more.

Again, I know SEVERAL non-power-users. And they are using Windows just fine. Again: OS X is better and easier to use. But that does not change the fact that they CAN and DO get their job done in Windows as well. Nothing you have said really disputes that fact.

Hell, I administrate 10 desktops, 40 laptops and half a dozen servers running Windows. According to some people here, people of this company should not be able to do any work since "you need OS X for real work! You can't do anything with Windows!". Well, they ARE working! And they get their job done! How could that be?

most people just want to write a letter, manage their digital photos, use bank services or check today's tv programs.

And they can do that just fine in Windows. Or are you saying that launching MS Word on OS X and typing a letter is somehow magically different than launching MS Word on Windows and typing a letter? No, don't tell me: On OS X, the user is not "using the computer", whereas on Windows he is. Nevermind the fact that the actual process of typing that letter is 99% identical on both.

they don't want to use a computer or browse the internet. computer is a tool which shouldn't be an obstacle. but in the real world (i mean, outside us computer literate power users) people realize that windows keeps them from doing what they want to do and also that by using a macintosh they feel like the computer is helping them to finish what they began.

So, what exactly is different in the Mac-way of working as opposed to Windows-way of working? Suppose that I launch Firefox on Windows to do my online-banking. How would that be different in OS X? Well, it isn't really. I tried. I launch a web-browser just like I would launch it on Windows. Or would OS X automatically pay my bills or something?

I'm more of a Linux-person myself. And I don't care much for Windows. But the mentality some people here have is pretty overblown. For regural users, Windows works just fine. Yes, viruses and the like are a problem, but the problem can be resolved.

[AidenShaw]

So you go to start to start the process of shutting down, choose shut down computer (obviously) to get to restart... this is only perfect logic as long as you say so - it would not occur to me intuitively that I should start a process to shut down or restart. I am looking for a way to END my processes (which apparently under Windows is a process in itself then...)

I didn't mean "process" as an internal O/S entity with memory, state, threads, etc.

I meant it in common English, as in "task" or "procedure" or "series of steps".

On the other hand, of course, everything that happens in the O/S happens within the context of a process. You can't execute an instruction without being in the context of a process of some form or other.

So yes, shutting down creates a process (or activates an existing system process) to take care of the shutdown sequence. UNIX is the same as Windows in this regard....

[Mavimao]

But the mentality some people here have is pretty overblown. For regural users, Windows works just fine. Yes, viruses and the like are a problem, but the problem can be resolved.


This is a Mac forum! Whaddya expect?! :rolleyes:

Of course the overwhelming majority is going to favor OSX to their grave!

In any case, I could give a rat's *** what you use, but as long as I am personally happy with OS X, after years of freezes and re-booting, then that's all I care about.

(mmm! Unix goodness!)

[louden]

I use both OS’s and yes, Tiger is clean and easy to use for apps like web browsers, video, or any other iLife tool. It’s great. At the same time, Windows with .net is a great environment for developing distributed applications that share data among many users – typical in any company. and they have more mind share than java. So from my perspective both sides have their positive attributes, and both sides have negatives – Windows is more susceptible to bugs, faulty drivers – but it is a more open hardware environment. That’s part of the cost, and a good reason to go with a mac for trouble free use.

Both have their sweet spot. I think both sides will compete heavily for the home server market. On one side, you’ll have Apple with proven functionality with iTunes and reliability, and on the other you have MS with their MediaCenter PC, more accepted DRM and some pretty cool partners. What I want to know is which environment will enable usage of HDMI cards or Cable/Satellite receivers on a card – to really make a Home Theater PC. - That's where these two companies will really clash - and I can't wait, beceuase the competition will bring out the best.

[macmax77]

Mac OS X has a lot of features that are half baked yes including spotlight! At the end of the day if an OS has improved, it has improved. One thing i would like to see is an improved UPnP.

I think once people get the prettier windows, most of the "casual" users will fail to see any reason to switch. Most of the people who buy macs (other than the hardcore mac guys) are people who just want a pretty system not because of any technical superiority (as if they understand and even better because they donot care)!!


i have never in my life seen such a "smart dude" like yourself.

I am glad we have you here all day to dissed Apple and everything they do.

Maybe u are paid by Msft, who knows, but one thing is for certain and that is that u, my friend , are against every Apple move and against all the specialized writters/people that have written about the best operating system available today

OSX

So please , stop argumenting where you cannot win.

At least we have u on board and not banned like what those msft dudes did to me in their board becasue i shared my views.

On second thought, u should be banned for writing so much blah blah without one real truth

[cr2sh]

i have never in my life seen such a "smart dude" like yourself.

I am glad we have you here all day to dissed Apple and everything they do.

Maybe u are paid by Msft, who knows, but one thing is for certain and that is that u, my friend , are against every Apple move and against all the specialized writters/people that have written about the best operating system available today

OSX

So please , stop argumenting where you cannot win.

At least we have u on board and not banned like what those msft dudes did to me in their board becasue i shared my views.

On second thought, u should be banned for writing so much blah blah without one real truth

Wow. Great post.

I think Microsoft Vista's slogan should be "Making your Windows eXPerience... more Mac like."

[Fabio_gsilva]

And most people can do those tasks in Windows as well.

Yep, and I had to restar my computer at least two times a day because Outlook and Word, combined with IE, crashes windows a lot...

Man, If Word crash Windows, both MS best-seller products, and they can't "stand" each other, what do you have to say to help this lame OS??

Windows is crap.

[macmax77]

this is the only way i would end up getting a box from microslut, and then anyway, i would loose the box

[deputy_doofy]

So please tell me why dragging a device to the trash ejects it instead of deleting the data on it?

By the way, you start activities through the "Start" menu, so that is a perfectly logical place to go to start the process of shutting down.

I don't disagree that throwing a device into the trash is weird, since you would think it would "trash" the device (format it, etc.).

However, have you been using 10.x at all? The trash symbol becomes an eject symbol for all devices and the "eject via trash can" arguement has been gone for the last 5 years.

If we can use the "Start" button to "start the shutdown process," why not have a redneck version of Windows with a "Fixin" button.
I'm fixin' to shut this here 'puter down.

[wdlove]

So far lets just say Apple Has Nothing to Worry about....its still windows XP
with a whole host of disjointed features. Vista is nooothing like OS X.

Keep the faith Mac users.


SP

I'm not at all concerned, my faith is with the innovation of Apple. Now to see if Steve will have Leopard ready for the 4th quarter of '06.

[RobHague]

http://www.pdjkeelan.com/duelmonstersexpert/vista.png
:D

I had some free time and was just playing around, it was not a 'Mac better than PC' thing it was just a little joke about the feature set of "Longhorn/Vista". However where i originally posted this people didnt really get it ;)

[Quixcube]

I'm not at all concerned, my faith is with the innovation of Apple. Now to see if Steve will have Leopard ready for the 4th quarter of '06.

I hope Vista makes Apple nervous and keeps it innovating. Competition is always a good thing. The better Windows is, the better OS X has to be.

It is a two way street everyone, don't forget that. For example, 10.4 Server (not client) is the first version of OS X that supports access control lists for file permissions, for god's sake. I have been waiting for years for this technology to find its way into OS X while those "poor Windows users" have had it since the early to mid 90s.

Competition = effort.

[rendezvouscp]

I could use both. I LOVE OSX. My point was that there are certain things that Windows does infact do better and that gives it an advantage over OSX. Giving Windows these new features makes it great for people who need these certain functions.

Yup. :D

I'm still wondering, does anyone know any reports about the rendering engine in IE 7? It's probably not done, but I'd like a little bit of hope that the IE team is getting something done.
-Chase

EDIT: I saw the post above, I'm not a newbie. :p I'm just curious if there's actually any reports, because the IE team is supposed to have an IE 7 beta out this summer (yeah, but I didn't really fall for it ;) ).
-Chase

[SPUY767]

The windows UI will be eternally inferior to the Mac OS X UI no matter if they call it Avalon, Camry, or Celica. Why? Well, as you can see the graphic effects in the screen shots are re-rendered. There is no advanced processing going on there. Unlike OS X In which almost the entire UI is offloaded onto the GPU. They look like they have managed to make the Icons bigger than a Mac's. That's a real improvement. It's more of the same from redmond apparently, Where a 128x128 icon is feasible and reasonable, anything else is too much, and it pretty much personifies windows product design. Let's take something that looks cool, copy it, but overdo it so much that it ceases to be the thing it was that made it cool.

Way to go bill.

[SPUY767]

I hope Vista makes Apple nervous and keeps it innovating. Competition is always a good thing. The better Windows is, the better OS X has to be.

It is a two way street everyone, don't forget that. For example, 10.4 Server (not client) is the first version of OS X that supports access control lists for file permissions, for god's sake. I have been waiting for years for this technology to find its way into OS X while those "poor Windows users" have had it since the early to mid 90s.

Competition = effort.

If those poor windows users were running NT. In which case I feel for them, cause the early NTs were a bitch and a half.

[edenwaith]

The thing that struck me as funny, is just how blatantly Microsoft is once again ripping Apple off. Search bar in your Explorer Windows? Check. A system wide search bar with easy accessibility? Check. A subtle gradient shading on the windows. One more check. Large, beautiful icons. Check.

From the screenshots I did see, it appears that Windows Vista is keeping along the similar appearance that XP started, but not quite as gaudy looking. So, it could even be possible that Windows Vista could be one of the best versions of Windows since Win 95 or 98. Windows 95 was an obvious leap over that gawdawful Windows 3.11, but I feel that Win98 was more polished and complete (whereas Windows Me was several steps backwards).

[makeme]

I saw some Windows Vista screenshots and I thought it looked like crap!

I just had to say that.

[jeriqo]

Keep in mind folks, that this is the forward step for MS Windows for the next several years.

I can't even begin to imagine the mac innovations during that time.

Second half of 2006 is not in several years

[Lacero]

Didn't Mac OSX Cheetah toy with translucent windows and drop-down lists? As far as I know, the translucency had been scaled back in Panther because it affected productivity in a negative way. Glad to see Windows taking the metaphor quite literally. <smirk>

[Tamer Brad]

Second half of 2006 is not in several years

He means that this will be the version of Windows used for the next several years.

BECAUSE KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!

[BenRoethig]

I think Microsoft Vista's slogan should be "Making your Windows eXPerience... more Mac like."

I'm think more along the lines of "Who do we want to copy today?"

this is the only way i would end up getting a box from microslut, and then anyway, i would loose the box

If she was my delivery person, Microsoft could send me whatever they wanted.

[yg17]

The windows UI will be eternally inferior to the Mac OS X UI no matter if they call it Avalon, Camry, or Celica.


Heh, I didn't even realize MS was ripping off the name of the GUI until you started listing Toyotas. I'm surprised they didn't call it Supra instead, as long as you're stealing names from Toyota, at least steal the name of what is hands down their best car.


Ripping off the GUI, features, name. How pathetic. Oh, and don't forget they'll probably ripping off the people who buy Vista too.

[MegaSignal]

So please tell me why dragging a device to the trash ejects it instead of deleting the data on it?

By the way, you start activities through the "Start" menu, so that is a perfectly logical place to go to start the process of shutting down.

Good point - and I believe taken care of since at least 10.3.x (or earlier - I'm not sure) when the "trash" basket icon changes into the universal "eject" icon when dragging discs or other peripherals toward what was once the trash icon. Clever, clever, clever. And iconically correct, IMHO.

True on the second topic, but only to a point, as long as one "Starts" to shut down or "Starts" to reboot ones computer - it seems redundant. However, IMHO, it is very clumsy to actually label said icon with a word in English if one wants international appeal of this OS. (BTW - I haven't seen any iterations of Windows in other languages - is it still called "Start"? If so, my case in point.)

This is precisely why, I believe, Apple used a universal icon to denote an area where more utility-type, machine-general commands could be found.

Nit picky? Yes I am; do I hate Windows? Not at all (except maybe a little bit of malice toward Windows95). I just wanted to point out my surprise with this vestigial leftover showing up on the Vista screen shots. Why not simply use the Windows icon?

For me, this attention to detail is no doubt indicative of details elsewhere, within the GUI, and under the hood.

[MegaSignal]

If we can use the "Start" button to "start the shutdown process," why not have a redneck version of Windows with a "Fixin" button.
I'm fixin' to shut this here 'puter down.


Brevity is indeed the soul of wit.

[remingtonhill]

Comming? Bleh. As in this decade? You wouldn't happen to be a "reincarnation" of myappleseeds, would you? I'm curious what this "revolution" is, since the only thing really revolving is some APIs and interface changes. Got anything for us to bite on?
-Chase

I suspect the screenshots of Vista represent the finished product of windows vista as much as the intel developer powermacs represent the finished product of the next generation intel macs.

You guys are losing credibility dissing Vista based on a couple of vague screenshots that really don't show you very much at all.

y'all don't want to look like a bunch of crazed mac cultists do you?

[rendezvouscp]

I suspect the screenshots of Vista represent the finished product of windows vista as much as the intel developer powermacs represent the finished product of the next generation intel macs.

You guys are losing credibility dissing Vista based on a couple of vague screenshots that really don't show you very much at all.

y'all don't want to look like a bunch of crazed mac cultists do you?

Well some of us ARE crazed mac cultists, so beware. :D

The quote you quoted me on, that was in response to another poster since he was claiming great things. As of right now, I'm not seeing great things. It's going to be five years between OS releases, and all I'm seeing are a few interface changes and API changes. I really am not seeing the beauty of this release; in fact, I think it's looking downright ugly.

When Apple first showed off Aqua, it had a lot more transparency and a few things just didn't look right. They spent another year trying to fix these things, and they did manage to get a lot of the really bad stuff that just didn't flow well (like the tiled Dock). Vista looks like it's XP with lots of transparency and even uglier colors. I wish they'd re-hire Fisher Price.

The APIs are changing, and that's a bit exciting for everyone who develops. There should be more opportunities for better apps in Windows, which is good for Windows. However, I'm seriously starting to doubt that Microsoft is going to get anything "right" in Vista. Their lack of responsiveness with IE 7 is getting to me too.

The biggest thing I think anyone can hope for is something more secure. Microsoft is never going to develop something as secure as Unix, but they can make progress. I just hope they get security right.

In regards to what you said, Apple is showing that they have a working version of Tiger on boxes that do work. That's showing progress. In Vista, Microsoft is not showing much progress, and that's what should worry any Windows enthusiast, or any Mac user that has to deal with Windows on a regular basis. BTW, it's definitely not the same either. Apple's showing a new tech in an old design, and every thing is working well for developers. Microsoft is showing new tech in a new design, but neither is very good.
-Chase

[thewhitehart]

Keep in mind folks, that this is the forward step for MS Windows for the next several years.

I can't even begin to imagine the mac innovations during that time.

Damn straight. Couldn't of said it better. :)

[BGil]

The thing that struck me as funny, is just how blatantly Microsoft is once again ripping Apple off. Search bar in your Explorer Windows? Check. A system wide search bar with easy accessibility? Check. A subtle gradient shading on the windows. One more check. Large, beautiful icons. Check.


Three boxes in the corner of each window? Check. Browsing metaphor in the file system? Check. Toolbars and sidebars on Finder windows and in open/save dialogs? Check. AES file system encyrption? Check. Hardware accelerated video processing on a 3D surface? Check. ACLs? Check. Minimizing windows? Check. Arbitrary metadata stream support? Check. Indexing Service with instant search, extensible file formats, live queries, saved searches, and a developer API? check.

Seriously, both Apple and Microsoft often implement features that the other has gooten to first.

Next time you're on a Windows box click the search icon in the toolbar of every Explorer window and you'll get a search box in the sidebar. Search boxes have been in Explorer windows since at least Windows 2000.

The windows UI will be eternally inferior to the Mac OS X UI no matter if they call it Avalon, Camry, or Celica. Why? Well, as you can see the graphic effects in the screen shots are re-rendered. There is no advanced processing going on there. Unlike OS X In which almost the entire UI is offloaded onto the GPU.



Windows Vista offloads far more of the screen to the GPU than OS X does. OS X basically only hands the compositing off to the GPU while the DCE/DWM hands off everything.

On one side, you’ll have Apple with proven functionality with iTunes and reliability, and on the other you have MS with their MediaCenter PC, more accepted DRM and some pretty cool partners. What I want to know is which environment will enable usage of HDMI cards or Cable/Satellite receivers on a card – to really make a Home Theater PC.

The Media Center 2005 update (Codenamed Emerald) due sometime in August enables those features. Apple has to do a ton of work before HD playback and recording becomes a decent option on the Mac. Microsoft is light-years ahead of Apple in that area because of DirectX and it's video handling abilites.

I just recieved Internet Explorer 7 Beta 1 and IT IS A COPY OF SAFARI an absolute copy. for example the Google search is now integrated and is in the same spot as the safari. When the Search field isn't selected and is empty the Words "Google" appear in faded grey colours, and the Tabbed feature looks pretty familiar the only thing I can see wasn't copied was the RSS button (which is now in the main icons bar) which of course isn't as nice, and it seems that the ways the icon of the website shows up is in the exact same spot as it is in Safari.

Why doesn't Apple sue? this isn't the only time MS has copied Apple.
Safari is a damn near clone of FireFox. Opera had the search bar in the upper-right hand corner back in version 5 (2000). Most "new" features you see in web browsers today come from Opera or one of the IE shells. Tabs, Google search bar, RSS etc. all came from those browsers.

That and "supposedly MS has been talking up the C word A LOT over the last year. Compartmentalizing segments of code so, again, theoretically crap like blaster can’t happen again. Time will tell if this is the case and if they really have made progress on security.

Windows Server 2003 is built like that and it wasn't vunerable to many of the big attacks like Sasser so they've already proven that it works. SP2, Windows Server 2003, and IIS 6 are pretty damn good as far a security is concerned. If Vista continues on that trend then it will be pretty good as well. From what I've seen in vista and what I know about current OSes (win2k3) Vista should be extremely safe. I'm not so sure about the ClickOnce thing but other than that it looks all good.

Windows "Vista" has lost a lot of the functionality that was supposed to make this the "Best Windows Operating System of all time." Like the folks on the TWiT podcast said in episode 14, "Vista" is becoming a bigger joke than ME, and we all know how ME was. :eek: :eek: And the rumor that you are supposed to have a "digitally signed monitor" to have "the best media experience" is a big joke. The next gen filesystem is gone. This is why I am switching to the Mac. Mac OS X will keep building on where Windows has fallen short. I'm sorry Microsoft, but you lost a user a long time ago.

Why would that make you switch to something with an even worse file system? HFS+ is horrible and all the stuff Apple is doing to it now are just hacks to keep their 1984 filesystem semi-current. NTFS6 is far superior. BTW, WinFS is still coming (beta next summer/fall and final in 2007) and all the "searching" stuff that they promised is stil there as is the virtual file system. WinFS just takes the idea much much further.

More info for anyone that wants to read about WinFS in depth:
http://www.freshpatents.com/Storage-platform-for-organizing-searching-and-sharing-data-dt20050303ptan20050050054.php?type=description



Fine. Great. Now, I wanted to do some semi-pro audio editing, burn some red book compliant CDs with crossfades, edit some video (without the disc fragmenting almost immediately), and then begin to look for some software to exract previously encoded movies (my own) from earlier DVDs for further editing, and download more than two files at once on my browser.

$1200 later, all I can do with my PC (OK - I'm stubborn - even to the point of throwing good money after bad) is surf the web (safely, I think...) and...well...that's about it.

Don't get me wrong - I'm keeping my PC, it works OK for what I do with it - but being stuck with this bill has me very disappointed with XP's offerings; it doesn't look like Vista will alleviate this, either. So far, OSX: 1; XP:0.


Vegas Movie Studio (http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/Products/ShowProduct.asp?PID=932) does all of that and more. It's far better than iMovie and GB unless you need midi/instrument support. Acid Studio will handle that if you want. You can get the whole Studio Set (Acid, Vegas, Soundforge) for $199. The edu price is about half that.

[BGil]

Why can't you download more than one file at once in IE? Maxthon is the best browser in the world IMO and it's free.


Back on topic:

The screen shots of Vista were very informative. However, from the looks of things, nothing much has changed from the persepective of the GUI; more interesting to me will be if there are any changes to NTFS, whether or not there will be integrated security systems, and finally, how much overhead is required to run the new system.

Thanks for listening.

GUI: The file browsing metaphor has changed to something almost completely virtual. It's pretty damn cool and better than anything in any other OS IMO.
NTFS: There are a ton of changes to NTFS in Vista. Transactioning, built-in volume shadow copy, built in backup and restore etc.

Look at the screenshot on this page of Vista's virtual folders, it looks very similiar to tiger's Smart Folders.

Vista Virtual Folders (http://news.zdnet.com/2300-9590_22-5806815-3.html)

They should look similar because Microsoft implemented grouping, preview panes, and columns with relevant metadata a long time ago. Nothing in 10.3 looks like Tiger's smart folders or the Spotlight window but any folder in XP with Show in groups looks pretty similar.

To those of you who think Spotlight is half-baked... wha???
<snip>

Spotlight is half baked because you can't make a smart folder from the Spotlight window, it's got a lot of bugs and moves slowly sometimes, it can't index a database (which is why Mail, Addressbook, and iCal store everything as individual files now and why Entourage doesn't work with Spotlight), you can't have more than one importer per file type, it doesn't save settings related to external drives, you can't apply a metadata to more than one file at a time, the metadata isn't available in list view (columns), it doesn't index anything it can't write to, you can't add actual keywords, authors, ratings etc,. to a file only Spotlight comments, smart folders don't actually act like folders in that you can't drag something into one etc. etc.


Meanwhile Apple is producing the best eye candy on the planet and already backing it up with actual technology like spotlight, core audio, core data, etc. All of which are a little rough around the edges right now, but certainly usable in their current state.

You do realize that DirectX already has all the features of Corevideo and Core Image, right? It had some CoreImage stuff when IE4 was released and the rest came in with DX8 and 9. CoreVideo is exactly what Microsoft started doing with DX7.
CoreData is nothing special. SQL Server Express and MSDE do nearly all of what CoreData does and their feature set expands much further.

+++
- everything on it seems to be ripped from Tiger! just take a look at the search symbol, it's 1:1 rip-off of Spotlight symbol!
---
- it's heavy as hell (3ghz proc minimum, wan't it?)
- everything on it seems to be ripped from Tiger! just take a look at the search symbol, it's 1:1 rip-off of Spotlight symbol!
Does anyone remember this picture from Tiger release spectacle? :D

Try opening the start menu on any Windows bx and you'll see the magnifying glass right there next to "search" or "find". It's been there since Windows 95.
http://toastytech.com/guis/win95startmenu.gif
http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/winxp_rc_gallery_05.gif
So who's copying who?

The 3GHz thing is a rumored "recommended" spec not the minimum. Microsoft is considering that the minimum to play HD video (1080i) and HD-DVD so nothing lower than that gets the highest level recomendation (windows logo program) from Microsoft. Remember, it's expected that they're going to ship Media Center 2006 in every install of Vista and that HD delivery over the net or HD-DVD will become a popular thing in the Longhorn/Vista timeframe.

My guess is that Microsoft will recommend a 3ghz P4 or 3000+ Athlon or better, 512mb's ram or better, DX9 with 128mb's or better, Firewire, USB2, DVD burner, and 5.1 sound for Vista. I found a ton of PC's meeting those specs at Best Buy for less than $800. An E-machine met those specs at $500. Gateway currently is shipping dual core Media Centers for $800 fully loaded with 200GB's HD's, a gig of ram etc.
By November of 2006, even $500 emachines will have dual cores.

True, 10.1 was horrible. But OS X at it's worst was still better than XP at it's best. Now, there's jusst no comparison, because OS X has progressed lightyears while XP did what? Oh, I forgot, SP2. :rolleyes:

Windows Media Player 9 and 10, Windows Media 9 (HD in 2002!!), DirectX 9 (does all that Corevideo and Image can do and more), Surround Sound decoding built in, High-Def audio now, Media Center (3 versions with the 4th in Aug.), Tablet PC, Speech and Recognition, Conference XP, MSN Messenger 5/6/7, Raw Image support, FULL 64-BIT OS AND API'S, 2 kernel updates, SP2, Windows Desktop Search, .Net, Tons of Powertoys, IE7, and upcoming:
Avalon, WGF1/2 (DX10), Monad/MSH, Indigo, Metro, XPS etc.

90% of the things Apple has done to their core OS in the last five years had already been done by Microsoft in 2000/XP.
More here (http://pcversusmac.com/updates.htm)

[slackpacker]

[QUOTE=BGil]

Maxithon blows,

Also Yes you can have your wonderful 64 bit windows which is basically a beta test as well.... Also Try to Run anything that requires drivers that are not
or 64 bit drivers are not ready yet you can't

At least the OS X 64bit implementation is working.....

Don't try to camp here and say Vista is all that because it ain't yet

[slackpacker]

http://www.pdjkeelan.com/duelmonstersexpert/vista.png
:D

I had some free time and was just playing around, it was not a 'Mac better than PC' thing it was just a little joke about the feature set of "Longhorn/Vista". However where i originally posted this people didnt really get it ;)

Cool Pic!!

But really...

with Vista there is no integration the "search" that everyone is talking about in vista is basically a really lame file index.... it can't find all the files on yer hd like spotlight.


One thing that Vista has ... I have to say is about a million ways to view and organize your files in its explorer file system... windows has always been better than finder at that.

[Passante]

[QUOTE=snip

And by the way, does anybody feel the same way I do about Tiger being a very weak upgrade to Panther? Sure, the widgets are handy, but as a user of OSX for work, I don't find much compelling about the 10.4 upgrade. I don't care about "automator" and "Spotlight." And I know most of the real world non geek users do either.

snip[/QUOTE]

After using Tiger for 2 months I'd say the upgrades are subtle but extremely useful. For example:

I rarely open the finder. I get to most everything between spotlight and the dock.

Server disconnects used to be a major pain. If I forgot to unmount the office server and opened my laptop at home I would get major hiccups until the server was unmounted (used to crash in Jaguar)

Family email photos all the time. Now mail allows me to do quick slideshow AND import the photos directly into iPhoto. Thats a big time savings. I use XP at work. The dang system can't even automaticaly fit the photos to my screen size.

Widgets are now an integral of my daily workflow. Have a dictionary, weather channel radar, and package tracker widgets available at a click of a button saves me having to open another tab, navagate to a web site and reduces the clutter of windows on my desktop.

These are a few of the subtle but extremely useful Tiger upgrades. Well worth the $99 price.

[BGil]

Maxithon blows,

Also Yes you can have your wonderful 64 bit windows which is basically a beta test as well.... Also Try to Run anything that requires drivers that are not
or 64 bit drivers are not ready yet you can't

At least the OS X 64bit implementation is working.....

Don't try to camp here and say Vista is all that because it ain't yet

Maxthon is far better than Safari, Firefox and probalby whatever browser you use. The only browser on the Mac that compares is Omniweb everything else (not Opera) is basically a clone of Firefox.

OS X barely has any 64-bit at all. Very few if any of the API's are 64-bit and probably won't ever be on the PPC version of OS X.

And you're complaining that 32-bit drivers don't work on 64-bit? That's laughable as there are thousands of 64-bit drivers included with the OS and many many more available from others online. Windows XP 64-bit still supports more hardware than OS X does.

[BGil]

Cool Pic!!

But really...

with Vista there is no integration the "search" that everyone is talking about in vista is basically a really lame file index.... it can't find all the files on yer hd like spotlight.


What are you talking about? You do know that Spotlight is an indexing service, right? 2000/XP's index and Vista index can find more files and metadata than Spotlight can. It can also index FTP sites, websites, read-only drives (like HFS+ drives), anything with a UNC path, and programs with custom data stores like Thunderbird. Spotlight can't do any of that.

What files on your hard drive are you saying Vista/XP can't find?


Microsoft's Indexing Service (version 2000 in 2000/XP and 2006 in Vista) are far more robust than Spotlight's backend technology.

[Flux Harmonic]

Microsoft's Indexing Service (version 2000 in 2000/XP and 2006 in Vista) are far more robust than Spotlight's backend technology.

That's all fine an dandy, but we have spotlight NOW. That it isn't currently as versatile as what vista's search is -supposed- to be is irrelevant. I guarantee that apple is still working hard on trying to improve spotlight, and by the time that leopard rolls around, microsoft will again find itself in the dust.

[Evangelion]

Yep, and I had to restar my computer at least two times a day because Outlook and Word, combined with IE, crashes windows a lot...

I use XP at work. And my workstation has uptimes of around 3 weeks. After few weeks I reboot the machine because global IT pushes some changes to the machine.

As it happens, I had to do a forced reboot on my Mac Mini today, because I got a spinning beachball of death and nothing worked anymore.... Don't you just love anecdotal evidence?

Man, If Word crash Windows, both MS best-seller products, and they can't "stand" each other, what do you have to say to help this lame OS??

Like I said, I don't care much for Windows. I use it for tasks that it does well, which in my case means gaming. I also use it at work, where it works just fine. I prefer Linux for both ideological and others reasons.

Windows is crap.

Yes it is. And for most people, it's good enough. And it beats OS X and Linux in one thing that people care about: Applications. I tried to move my inlaws to Linux. No-go, since their apps wouldn't work anymore. Same thing with OS X.

[AidenShaw]

Why can't you download more than one file at once in IE?

To change IE's throttle, copy the following to file named "download20.reg" and double-click it.

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Internet Settings]
"MaxConnectionsPerServer"=dword:00000014

(or, of course, update that value with regedit).

[StrangeQuark]

From the screenshots, the interface style is VERY Tiger-like, down to the font and logo styles. Not bagging it, complimenting it, it looks good, the taskbar looks heap better without the green button. But the close/minimise/maximise buttons - whose bright idea was it to shift them left?? I liked being able to just throw my mouse up the top right to close (which iTunes won't let me do).

Also, half on topic - when exactly did Longhorn change name to Windows Vista? I knew Longhorn was just a codename, just missed the announcement. Vista's cool, better than "xp-erience".

Well, I think I might know why it looks very Tiger-like. Not sure if this is some odd coincidence, but figured I'd post it anyway. Might be Apple isn't the only one that Redmond is copying these days.

http://art.gnome.org/themes/gtk2/566

Note that the release date on this is late 2003. As I recall, this was well before we knew what Hasta la Vista's GUI was called. The glossy black shading looks pretty similar too. Take a look at the description on this thing too.

[RacerX]

Well, there were a lot more things that Microsoft took from Apple/NeXT.
Browsing metaphor in the file system? Check.The browsing system that Apple uses in the Finder dates back to 1988 with the earliest versions of NEXTSTEP. I doubt you'll find anything that NeXT even considered worth looking at from Windows 2.0 back then.
Toolbars and sidebars on Finder windows and in open/save dialogs? Check.The sidebar is an implementation of the NEXTSTEP shelf within the Workspace Manager... as far as I know, Windows has never had anything like that. The use of a toolbar was first tried in NEXTSTEP 4.0 beta, but was dropped until the release of Rhapsody 5.0. The position of the sidebar comes from necessity as both the toolbar and the original shelf occupied the same place in the Workspace Manager windows. To have both, one had to be moved to a new position. As the sidebar acts basically like an icon well, having it run vertically made more since that trying to do that with the toolbar.
Three boxes in the corner of each window? Check.Again, this was necessity rather than copying. Apple wanted to implement a new button for hiding the toolbar (which was a menu command before)... the three standard buttons had already been given stop light colors and the fourth was made purple... any combination of them other than putting the stop light colored buttons together didn't work, and they found it was needed to keep the toolbar button apart from the others. The interface was still not functioning as Apple wanted, so the purple toolbar button was remove for Mac OS X Public Beta. When the toolbar button returned in 10.0 it was the long clear button we have today.
Hardware accelerated video processing on a 3D surface? Check.That has to go to NeXT and SGI first. Jobs used technology from Pixar to give special 3D abilities into the NeXT hardware and software. This gave the NeXTcubes and NeXTstations 3D abilities that were far beyond what their 68030/68040 processors were designed to do. NeXT kept the APIs with NEXTSTEP even after it was ported to other platforms, but the hardware linking was gone (made up for by the faster processors). This API was not ported to Rhapsody, which is why some NeXT 3D apps (like Stone Design's 3D Reality) were never ported to Rhapsody or Mac OS X. Those apps were tied very closely to the NeXT/Pixar APIs.

When I worked at the Geometry Center, the Center was developing a 3D animation tool called Geomview. This was originally made on SGIs (a platform with a very long history of hardware accelerated video processing on 3D surfaces that goes back into the mid 80s) and then ported to NEXTSTEP (the two primary platforms we used at the Geometry Center). The reason we hadn't ported it to any other platform back then was the lack of 3D support in them (including systems by Apple and Sun, which were other platforms we were using at the time).

We only had one PC at the Center when I was there, it was used for playing DOOM when we couldn't play on the NeXT systems (which was the platform DOOM was developed on) and running an early version of Linux.
Minimizing windows? Check.That was part of NEXTSTEP from the very beginning. Same with IRIX and CDE. All of those predate Windows' use of minimizing windows as I recall. That is absolutely not a Microsoft innovation.
Indexing Service with instant search, extensible file formats, live queries, saved searches, and a developer API? check.Gosh, I thought we agreed that you had conceded on this point as these were all part of NEXTSTEP's Digital Librarian and the NeXT APIs for letting the Librarian do indexed searches with documents of third party apps.

I still can't help but laugh at the fact that you thought that Digital Librarian was for dictionaries, thesauruses and the like. :D

Seriously, both Apple and Microsoft often implement features that the other has gooten to first.Seriously, you need to get over your idol worship of Microsoft. Microsoft has always had a history of watching all the other companies in the tech industry innovate and then once the usefulness is proven, rushing in to stomp out anyone else.

R&D is almost non-existant at Microsoft. They have had a "watch and wait" and then steal, copy or acquire policy since the late 80s. They currently believe that litigation (and even settlements) are less expensive that R&D.

[beatle888]

RacerX you came just in time. just like in the cartoon speed racer. I almost bought all that BGil was saying. His post gave me a sinking feeling and thought i should open my eyes and embrace the dark side. thanks for setting him straight.

All i can say is, from my experience MS is better for business at this point. Apple doesn't really cater to business owners/operators. This is really a disappointment for me because i love the mac but find it frustrating when i need to do certain business tasks.

I look at the MS – Apple debate as one thats not really comparable. Apple does a lot less than MS so its not really fair to compare. Apple caters to certain needs VERY WELL. MS caters to a broader list of needs and does sort of O.K. at most and from what i hear very well at others. but its this massive undertaking that makes windows so frustrating for regular people. i dont think windows can win the hearts of the average computer user until windows makes an OS thats as easy to maintain as OSX. this was illustrated so perfectly by my girlfriends windows experience. she wanted to surf the web, burn cd's, watch dvd's... the basic stuff. but her pc system just kept getting in the way of her enjoying/doing the very basic tasks. her scanner just stopped working one day...why? who knows. we reinstalled drivers...tried this and that, nothing worked. shes been on her mac for almost a year and her mac can do everything she expected to do on a computer. everything runs without us having to really know much about how a computer works under the GUI. i think microsoft might get to this point and thats when apple will have to worry.


Anyway, i enjoyed both posts. keep at it.

[Plymouthbreezer]

It still looks crappy. Better than XP yes - but still bad. I'll stick with Mac OS X.

If anything, it might be about equal to Panther. I'm sure Leopard will kill it.

[BGil]

That's all fine an dandy, but we have spotlight NOW. That it isn't currently as versatile as what vista's search is -supposed- to be is irrelevant. I guarantee that apple is still working hard on trying to improve spotlight, and by the time that leopard rolls around, microsoft will again find itself in the dust.


Please read what I said over and over. Microsoft's Indexing Service ver.2000 was in Windows 2000 and XP at their respective launches. Windows Desktop Search came out last December. Office since 1995 has included Destkop Search. Microsoft gave away Lookout for free last July and replaced that with Microsoft Desktop Search last December. So the search ability you have NOW is what savvy Widnows users had YEARS AGO.

The browsing system that Apple uses in the Finder dates back to 1988 with the earliest versions of NEXTSTEP. I doubt you'll find anything that NeXT even considered worth looking at from Windows 2.0 back then.

The browsing metaphor I'm talking about is the one that mirrors the web browsing metaphor, use, and look. Column view isn't it.

The sidebar is an implementation of the NEXTSTEP shelf within the Workspace Manager... as far as I know, Windows has never had anything like that. The use of a toolbar was first tried in NEXTSTEP 4.0 beta, but was dropped until the release of Rhapsody 5.0. The position of the sidebar comes from necessity as both the toolbar and the original shelf occupied the same place in the Workspace Manager windows. To have both, one had to be moved to a new position. As the sidebar acts basically like an icon well, having it run vertically made more since that trying to do that with the toolbar.

You're a joke. So when Apple puts something in their OS in a similar way to how Microsoft did it (first) then Apple did it as a necessity but when Microsoft does the same to Apple it's a copy, right? That's what you're trying to tell me?

I bet you think Dashboard isn't Apple ripping off Konfabulator but Desktop Accessiories reborn, huh? Assuming what you say is true (the three button in the corner answer you gave was complete BS), then Microsoft wasn't ripping off Apple when they created Windows 1.0 because the GUI, Folder Metaphor, and Mouse weren't Apple creations or innovations. Apple produces DirectX9/D93D (CoreVideo/OpenGL) video playback in their media player and you say they weren't following Microsoft's lead? That's retarded.

Some things Apple introduced with Tiger have been in Windows for years and Apple purposely made their implementation similar. Microsoft has done the same thing so trying to paint it as one way copying is BS. Apple has done most of the following since OS X came out, period. Go look at the new features from Panther and Jag and you'll see that Windows had most of them already (especially the lower level features).

Irregardless of who innovated what technologies, Microsoft has been leading the platform wars for the past 5 years and Apple has been playing catchup. They've specifically implemented a number of features to combat Windows features (the Longhorn posters at WWDC are a perfect example of them TELLING YOU THAT) and you refuse to believe it. You can go boot a copy of XP pre-SP1 and a copy of OS X 10.1 and see for yourself.

Apple is great at making GUI's and have easily been leading in that category but their technology implementations have generally come after Microsoft and Windows has already implemented things. There are some noteable exceptions (double-buffered windows and hardware accelerated compositing) but overall the trend from the early 90's has been reversed.

I still can't help but laugh at the fact that you thought that Digital Librarian was for dictionaries, thesauruses and the like.

Then go ahead and show me the digital librarian searching file content and metadata, emails, contacts, and tasks with live queries, saved searches, and a plugin system for new file formats.

The fact is that Apple's implementation of CoreVideo, sidebars in the open/save, Spotlight indexing services, and window widgets have 10x's more in common with the Windows implementation than ANY OF THE TECHNOLOGIES YOU MENTIONED.

I bet you I can tell you that Leopard will have a new Finder with a completely virtual heirarchy. Why? Because Microsoft has been implemented one in Longhorn (it's been there since the early builds). Like it or not, Apple is fighting against the Windows empire and their going to copy anything that they think is a good idea (desktop search). Microsoft specfically said Apple and Linux would do that once they started showing off Longhorn technologies and that's what happened. Nobody gave a rats ass about integrated desktop search until Microsoft showed it off at the PDC in 2003, then all of a sudden Google, Yahoo, Apple, and dozens of others started causing an uproar about their new "desktop search" products. There's a reason why Apple half-baked Spotlight and it's because they had only been working on the backend for a few months when they showed handed out developer copies.

[Flux Harmonic]

Please read what I said over and over. Microsoft's Indexing Service ver.2000 was in Windows 2000 and XP at their respective launches. Windows Desktop Search came out last December. Office since 1995 has included Destkop Search. Microsoft gave away Lookout for free last July and replaced that with Microsoft Desktop Search last December. So the search ability you have NOW is what savvy Widnows users had YEARS AGO.

I used both 2000 and XP for many years before switching to mac, and I have no idea what you're talking about. Same with office...I've run every major version of office and have never seen any sort of desktop search. If you could kindly explain where these can be found, I will go and verify the validity of your statements.

It seems, though, that most of the spotlight-comparable technology available from microsoft is either expensive (ie office) or some kind of download. The fact that they didn't make this technology widely and easily accessible is ludicrous. In some regards, that is of equal importance to the technology itself. Or have you not read any Marshall McLuhan?

[BGil]

I used both 2000 and XP for many years before switching to mac, and I have no idea what you're talking about. Same with office...I've run every major version of office and have never seen any sort of desktop search. If you could kindly explain where these can be found, I will go and verify the validity of your statements.

It seems, though, that most of the spotlight-comparable technology available from microsoft is either expensive (ie office) or some kind of download. The fact that they didn't make this technology widely and easily accessible is ludicrous. In some regards, that is of equal importance to the technology itself. Or have you not read any Marshall McLuhan?

The technology was fairly accessable but this stuff came out when computers were much slower so indexing wasn't really much of an option if you valued the performance of your machine. That's why indexing wasn't turned on in previous Mac OS's either. People complained about Find fast when it slowed down their Windows 95 computers.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8&q=find+fast+office

That's what Microsoft used up until Office 2000 when the indexing service was integrated into the OS.

By default, the Indexing Service will index HTML files, text files, Office 95 and later files, internet mail and news, and any other document that a filter is provided. For example, Adobe makes its own IFilter which once installed, helps the service index Acrobat (pdf) files.
http://www.xefteri.com/articles/show.cfm?id=2
http://www.eluent.com/indexing_service.htm
Search the net or the channel9.msdn wkik for an "ifilter explorer" and you'll see it will show you every ifilter installed on your system, in any SQL Server databases youy may have, in IIS etc.

Here's a nice overview:
http://www.pcworld.com/howto/article/0,aid,55364,pg,2,00.asp

To get fast searching in Office 2003 you have to go to the File menu and find the "find" or "search" option. I think it's actually in a submenu. After you do that you'll get a taskpane with a ton of search options including all your Outlook folders, Exchange stuff, all files on your computer and more. IIRC the first time you try to do a search it asks you if you want to turn the indexer on.

[MegaSignal]

So... what does everyone think of the name "Vista"?

For me, it conjurs up something with four wheels and too many Windows...

[AidenShaw]

I used both 2000 and XP for many years before switching to mac, and I have no idea what you're talking about. Same with office...I've run every major version of office and have never seen any sort of desktop search.
More to the point of this discussion is the simple truth that there's been a lot of copying back and forth (and sideways, since Linux/Unix/VMS/OS360... are also found). (If you want to find an early use of meta-data in the file system, look at VMS and RSX-11 in the '70s...)

Each "copy" usually improves on the previous one - pretty obvious. Spotlight didn't appear out-of-the-blue, but is (in some ways) a better implementation of search capabilities present in Windows 2000 and many add-ons. It has some flaws, and "rushed to market" seems to be a pretty good description.

I find the Apple "Redmond - Start your photocopiers" banner to be one of the more outrageous attempts at pro-actively rewriting history that I've ever seen.

Look at early Longhorn announcements from 2002 (such as http://www.winsupersite.com/faq/longhorn.asp) and earlier "Windows Blackcomb" descriptions. Most of the features that Mac zealots are claiming that Vista copied from 10.4 were described in detail. Longhorn public builds showed many of these features as early as 2002.

Who's using photocopiers, if Microsoft was showing these features fully a year before *Panther* shipped ?!?!?

Don't you find it curious that CoreImage requires a DirectX 9 compatible video card? Cart <-> Horse ?

[matthew24]

I work in the Windows support business, I bought a Mac as a kind of therapy to have some relief after a hard day's work, it only made things worse. After reading a lot about OSX, it''s architecture and working with it, I started to realize the inferiority of Windows and it became a real frustration to work with XP, especially when you know how good an OS could be. Still there are people promoting that crap. :eek:
My frustration with Windows is so big that I am willing to leave the IT business altogether.
One of the main reasons Vista takes so long is that after Jaguar/Panther/Tiger was introduced, MS came to realize they have done about everything wrong that could have been done wrong, and now they try to correct everything in one big effort, will it work?
As long as the registry and the DLL hell is still there, Vista only will be a cover up.

Here is a good article about the big difference between MS and Apple when it comes to administrating computers:

http://www.cio-today.com/story.xhtml?story_id=37481

Two quotes from the article: '"User friendliness and the administration capabilities are the core of their success," DiDio offered', and: 'By contrast, Microsoft's products continue to defy simplicity.' :o

Well at least after many years of suffering at work, at home I am enjoying an effortless computer experience again. ( many years after having owned an Atari ST )

One thing I must agree with BGil, XP does have many features, but their implementations have (almost) always been wrong.

OK, I want to say something positive about Windows, their gui (98 and 2000) was quite excellent, I liked the desktop and explorer, but with XP they really took a wrong turn.

[beatle888]

Well at least after many years of suffering at work, at home I am enjoying an effortless computer experience again. ( many years after having owned an Atari ST )

One thing I must agree with BGil, XP does have many features, but their implementations have (almost) always been wrong.



this is the reason why microsoft has trouble. the workload on their plate is much more than apples. i think they bit off more than they can chew gracefully but they seem to be getting it down...sort of. i would think they might be able to give the computer user an effortless experience one day. and i hope i can predict that day before it comes. but as i type this i just shake my head. i cant imagine windows being so easy.

when i install something on the mac its quick easy and effortless. and it continues to work without a problem....it just works and thats it. i dont have to know about all the incompatibilities and how to get things to work. thats not what i want to do/know about computers.

when i install something on the pc its, try this and that...oh ok it works then tomorrow rolls around and its, "what"? ok time to trouble shoot. damn what happened. ok i got it to work. so it works for maybe a couple of months then stops.

thats not fun to me and i dont care why it happened. i dont want to know why it happened. i just want to use my mac cause it just works. this to me is why apple is better for the average person.

[Tahko]

Yes it is. And for most people, it's good enough. And it beats OS X and Linux in one thing that people care about: Applications. I tried to move my inlaws to Linux. No-go, since their apps wouldn't work anymore. Same thing with OS X.
Who needs 300000000000 available programs if only 10 is required? :confused:

[dejo]

That's what Microsoft used up until Office 2000 when the indexing service was integrated into the OS.

I'm confused. You had to get Office in order to get an OS-integrated indexing service? :confused:

[feakbeak]

More to the point of this discussion is the simple truth that there's been a lot of copying back and forth (and sideways, since Linux/Unix/VMS/OS360... are also found). (If you want to find an early use of meta-data in the file system, look at VMS and RSX-11 in the '70s...)

Each "copy" usually improves on the previous one - pretty obvious. Spotlight didn't appear out-of-the-blue, but is (in some ways) a better implementation of search capabilities present in Windows 2000 and many add-ons. It has some flaws, and "rushed to market" seems to be a pretty good description.

I find the Apple "Redmond - Start your photocopiers" banner to be one of the more outrageous attempts at pro-actively rewriting history that I've ever seen.

Look at early Longhorn announcements from 2002 (such as http://www.winsupersite.com/faq/longhorn.asp) and earlier "Windows Blackcomb" descriptions. Most of the features that Mac zealots are claiming that Vista copied from 10.4 were described in detail. Longhorn public builds showed many of these features as early as 2002.

Who's using photocopiers, if Microsoft was showing these features fully a year before *Panther* shipped ?!?!?

Don't you find it curious that CoreImage requires a DirectX 9 compatible video card? Cart <-> Horse ?Nice post Aiden, I get tired of the Microsoft is always copying Apple topics. Everyone is copying everyone and if they weren't, then they'd be stupid. If a company sees that a competitor has created/improved upon something that works well, then they should also include it and strive to improve upon it - we have to keep moving forward.

[Nermal]

"Windows Vista Beta 1 and Tiger"

Simple review - It doesn't work. :p

It seems that the current version of Virtual PC isn't compatible with Vista, the installer doesn't even load. It bombs out with an ACPI error. I'll have to install it on a real computer now :rolleyes:

And before you accuse me of being a pirate, I work for a software developer. We have access to this sort of stuff :)

Edit: Oops, I forgot my actual point! Microsoft will be forced to update Virtual PC, to add support for their new OS. Hopefully some speedups will be included too, and possibly some Intel support :)

[amin]

More to the point of this discussion is the simple truth that there's been a lot of copying back and forth (and sideways, since Linux/Unix/VMS/OS360... are also found). (If you want to find an early use of meta-data in the file system, look at VMS and RSX-11 in the '70s...)

Each "copy" usually improves on the previous one - pretty obvious. Spotlight didn't appear out-of-the-blue, but is (in some ways) a better implementation of search capabilities present in Windows 2000 and many add-ons. It has some flaws, and "rushed to market" seems to be a pretty good description.

I find the Apple "Redmond - Start your photocopiers" banner to be one of the more outrageous attempts at pro-actively rewriting history that I've ever seen.

Look at early Longhorn announcements from 2002 (such as http://www.winsupersite.com/faq/longhorn.asp) and earlier "Windows Blackcomb" descriptions. Most of the features that Mac zealots are claiming that Vista copied from 10.4 were described in detail. Longhorn public builds showed many of these features as early as 2002.

Who's using photocopiers, if Microsoft was showing these features fully a year before *Panther* shipped ?!?!?

Don't you find it curious that CoreImage requires a DirectX 9 compatible video card? Cart <-> Horse ?

I agree with your overall point, but Microsoft really opened itself up for such attacks by delaying Longhorn so many times. What good is "showing these features a year before Panther," when you don't produce the goods?

[.Joel]

"it's almost like Microsoft is designing [software] for geeks and Apple is designing for real people," said Joe Wilcox"

here here!

I switched to apple about 5 months ago. I don't think there is a part of OSX i haven't explored, i had the whole settings panel mastered in less then a day. This is the sort of simplicity I love. I found whilst using windows I spent more time maintaining the OS, then I did using it productively. Now on OSX, I don't need to worry about the OS, I can just get on with it and use the computer and finish what i need to do without having to tweak, or play with 15 other settings prior and hoping that a program will run this time etc etc.

[RacerX]

You're a joke.Actually, seeing as you couldn't find your hind quarters with both hands, I would think that you are the closest to qualifying as a joke of the two of us.

But this thread is not about your short comings (even if it is bringing them into the full light of day as a wonderful by product :D ), so lets look at what misguided stuff you've decided to post today...

The browsing metaphor I'm talking about is the one that mirrors the web browsing metaphor, use, and look. Column view isn't it.Maybe you are thinking of single window file browsing... that was there from the start of NEXTSTEP also.

Besides, we shouldn't forget that the first browsers (ever) were made on NeXT systems. And that the NEXTSTEP operating system itself was credited for much of the inspiration.

And we also shouldn't forget that Windows was a late comer to the Web. In fact, Windows limitations (that didn't exist in Unix and Mac systems) forced the changing of file names on the Web to the 8.3 convention. Before Windows, the standard extensions were 4 letters (html, jpeg, mpeg, etc.) and names weren't limited to 8 letters.

Of course, you would have had to have been using the Web back in 1993/1994 to see this change happen.

And to stick with the browser issue (as an side)... Microsoft never developed a browser. Internet Explorer was based on Mosaic licensed to Microsoft by NSCA. And the principle developer of Mosaic was the founder of Netscape (Marc Andreesen).

So when Apple puts something in their OS in a similar way to how Microsoft did it (first) then Apple did it as a necessity but when Microsoft does the same to Apple it's a copy, right? That's what you're trying to tell me?Please show me where I had said anything about something in Windows. I've spent my time countering blatantly inaccurate information that you have put forth... I haven't had to go chasing after anything in Windows to do this.

For my part, I just want to keep the record straight... you're the one who is ignoring the history of the industry (you most likely didn't live through it, so beyond the bad attitude the only thing you can be blamed for is your inability to do a google search ;) ).

I bet you think Dashboard isn't Apple ripping off Konfabulator but Desktop Accessiories reborn, huh? Assuming what you say is true (the three button in the corner answer you gave was complete BS), then Microsoft wasn't ripping off Apple when they created Windows 1.0 because the GUI, Folder Metaphor, and Mouse weren't Apple creations or innovations. Apple produces DirectX9/D93D (CoreVideo/OpenGL) video playback in their media player and you say they weren't following Microsoft's lead?Where did I say anything about Dashboard/Konfabulator?

And if you put money on that bet... you lost!

I absolutely thing that the implementation of Dashboard is based on Konfabulator. I've never said anything different.

Further, I think that Sherlock 3 was a blatant copy of Watson (though implemented very badly).

Unlike you, I know where Apple has copied others... I don't need to make up this stuff like you, I know where the ideas originated from.

As for Windows 1.0... how in the world could Microsoft have ripped off Apple? Firstly, Windows 1.0 was a GUI shell for running applications. And second, the technology was licensed from Apple (they had no need to rip off Apple when they had a license to do what they were doing).

The deal with Microsoft was for Excel to be released on the Mac and Apple to license the GUI technology so that it could then be released for DOS.

As for CoreVideo and CoreImage, I know people who are on those teams at Apple and have known them for years (even before they were at Apple). Much of these technologies were acquired by Apple when they bought companies (just like Microsoft does).

As for OpenGL, I was using it for hardware accelerated 3D modeling back when it was still called IrisGL in 1993. As I recall, that predates DirectX. Also, Apple was dealing with the same problem their own way back then... QuickDraw (1994). I think that also predates DirectX.

Of course, QuickDraw is one of the legacy technologies that keeps Mozilla based browsers so far behind on the Mac (they are still using a rendering engine based on QuickDraw in the Mac versions of their browsers).

And we are currently using Quartz which is based on OpenGL, Quicktime and DisplayPDF. This was Apple's answer to having to pay Adobe a hefty license fee for every copy of Mac OS X if they had continued using Display Postscript (which was used in NEXTSTEP 0.8 up to Mac OS X Server 1.2 v3).

That's retarded.What is retarded is not checking your facts before you post.

Some things Apple introduced with Tiger have been in Windows for years and Apple purposely made their implementation similar. Microsoft has done the same thing so trying to paint it as one way copying is BS. Apple has done most of the following since OS X came out, period. Go look at the new features from Panther and Jag and you'll see that Windows had most of them already (especially the lower level features).I'm still waiting for you to come up with a reasonable example.

Irregardless of who innovated what technologies, Microsoft has been leading the platform wars for the past 5 years and Apple has been playing catchup.The last 5 years at Microsoft have been damage control, and pretty much nothing else. The only thing Microsoft is leading is their users to insecure computing.

They've specifically implemented a number of features to combat Windows features (the Longhorn posters at WWDC are a perfect example of them TELLING YOU THAT) and you refuse to believe it. You can go boot a copy of XP pre-SP1 and a copy of OS X 10.1 and see for yourself.Well, I've been using NEXTSTEP since 1991, Rhapsody since 1999 and I started using Mac OS X at Developer Preview 4. I shouldn't need to boot up a copy of 10.1 if you actually know what you are talking about.

Tell me what Windows features I'll see (that weren't there in 10.0, in any of the Developer Previews, Rhapsody, OPENSTEP or NEXTSTEP... or even previous versions of the Mac OS).

... but overall the trend from the early 90's has been reversed.But you can't be sure... you don't even have a handle on the basics of the technology or what had been happening out side of your Windows-only mind. Given your complete and utter lack of knowledge on the subject (that you have displayed so far), you are in no position to be discussing trends of any type.

Then go ahead and show me the digital librarian searching file content and metadata, emails, contacts, and tasks with live queries, saved searches, and a plugin system for new file formats.Well, you were the one that told me to boot up a copy and see for myself... wouldn't the same advice hold true for you?

Should I really be asked to take the time to hold your hand and show you something that you should have research before posting?

I'm really not posting to educate you (that would require me caring about you in some manner... which I don't :D ), but I'll post a screenshot anyways.

http://www.shawcomputing.net/racerx/librarian-sm.jpg
Digital Librarian in action (http://www.shawcomputing.net/racerx/librarian.jpg)


The fact is that Apple's implementation of CoreVideo, sidebars in the open/save, Spotlight indexing services, and window widgets have 10x's more in common with the Windows implementation than ANY OF THE TECHNOLOGIES YOU MENTIONED.But you have admitted that you are completely unaware of any of the technologies that I mentioned... so you, again, are in no position to pass judgment. Until you take some time to do research (which obviously isn't your forte), you really should stop displaying your ignorance in public. If for no other reason than to keep from embarrassing yourself further.


Honestly, before we could even get started going into some of this stuff you really need to learn how to search the internet for information. Most of the misinformation you post could have been discovered and discarded by you before posting by spending a little time on Google.

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy making you look bad... but at the same time, the argument is totally one sided. I can't help but feel like I'm picking on you. I would really appreciate it if you, well... worked a little harder to hold up your end of the argument.

As it stands right now (based on your performance to date), there is very little sport in this for me.

Why not try something new... like backing up your statements. :eek:

[bousozoku]

Sorry, I must have missed something. Have the forums changed to a free-for-all?

I would suggest waiting to post before you say something you shouldn't.

[beatle888]

beatle gives change to BGil for some Asspercream. :eek:

..........never say im not a humanitarian.

[Nermal]

I'll have to install it on a real computer now

Progress report for one of the systems at work:

You can now install SATA drivers from CD, and don't need a floppy drive (finally!) :rolleyes:

However, the install crashed a short way in, so I can't say how good the actual OS is.

[iMeowbot]

You can now install SATA drivers from CD, and don't need a floppy drive (finally!) :rolleyes:
...but you still need to bring your own SATA drivers? In 2005? :eek:

[Evangelion]

Who needs 300000000000 available programs if only 10 is required? :confused:

Because none of those 10 are what the user needs/wants? Or because the apps he currently owns would not run on OS X, forcing the user to re-purchase the apps? Or what about games? Sure, OS X has games. Quite a few in fact. But what if those games are not what the user wants to play? Hell, one of the reason why my in-laws refused to move to Linux or OS X, was that none of the little games (that their kid liked to play) they got from cereal-boxes wouldn't work anymore.

Yes, OS X has Doom 3 (for example). But I don't care one bit about Doom 3. The games I like to play are NOT AVAILABLE on OS X. Nor are they available on the consoles. I find it 100% irrelevant how many games there are for OS X, if I'm not interested in those games!

It seems to me that some of you guys are not living on the same planet as rest of us are. One recurring suggestions seems to be to get a PC for fun & games, and Mac for serious work. So according to you, the user should have two computers (at twice the price)? If he wants to play games, he loads up the Windows-machine. If the then wants to type a letter (for example), he shuts down the Windows-machine, and boots up the Mac. Do you have any idea how tedious that would be? Instead of going through that extra hassle, why not simply type the letter in the Windows-machine? Fact remains that there's something Windows can do, that the Mac can't do: play games. And Windows can do the things the Mac can do (word-processing, email, net-surfing, etc. etc.). Os it's only logical that people stick with Windows.

Reality called, he wants you guys back.

[JFreak]

IMHO, it is very clumsy to actually label said icon with a word in English if one wants international appeal of this OS. (BTW - I haven't seen any iterations of Windows in other languages - is it still called "Start"? If so, my case in point.)

the "start" text is localised, and that makes it even worse. in case of finnish language, the words used for starting applications and initiating other activities are different, and "starting a shutdown process" is just not understood at all. it is a BIG joke in here that if you want to turn off your computer you need to press the turn-on-button.

really, that sucks. i believe that is the reason why vista seems to only have the windows logo as a start button, which on the other hand is a direct copy of the apple-menu, only that microsoft has taken apple's top-of-the-screen-bar to the bottom of the screen. how innovative of them ;)

[Nermal]

...but you still need to bring your own SATA drivers? In 2005? :eek:

Yep! :eek:
This was on a Via 8237. Some other chipsets might be included on the Vista DVD.

[BGil]

Maybe you are thinking of single window file browsing... that was there from the start of NEXTSTEP also.

Besides, we shouldn't forget that the first browsers (ever) were made on NeXT systems. And that the NEXTSTEP operating system itself was credited for much of the inspiration.

And we also shouldn't forget that Windows was a late comer to the Web. In fact, Windows limitations (that didn't exist in Unix and Mac systems) forced the changing of file names on the Web to the 8.3 convention. Before Windows, the standard extensions were 4 letters (html, jpeg, mpeg, etc.) and names weren't limited to 8 letters.

Of course, you would have had to have been using the Web back in 1993/1994 to see this change happen.

And to stick with the browser issue (as an side)... Microsoft never developed a browser. Internet Explorer was based on Mosaic licensed to Microsoft by NSCA. And the principle developer of Mosaic was the founder of Netscape (Marc Andreesen).

This is another attempt at you bringing up things as if they're related but they aren't. I'm talking about the web browsing metaphor in the Finder and Windows Explorer. Who had the first web browser doesn't relate to the first web-browsing metaphor in a file manager. Nor does single window browsing(I told you before this is nothing like column view).

You did the same thing with the SGI stuff. 3D modeling has nothing to do with Apple and Microsoft's implementation of CoreVideo and Direct3D video playback. CoreVideo isn't similar to SGI or NeXT's technology at all but it's almost exactly the same (I actually haven't see any differences except for OpenGL versus DX).

Unlike you, I know where Apple has copied others... I don't need to make up this stuff like you, I know where the ideas originated from.

Again, you keep making stuff up but while trying to make it sound relevant. The whole thing about Apple's three buttons in the corner of the window being a neccessity rather than copying is BS. The majority of the paragraph you wrote proceeded to talk about the pill on the other side of the window-- which has no bearing on the three buttons I'm talking about.

As for OpenGL, I was using it for hardware accelerated 3D modeling back when it was still called IrisGL in 1993.

What does that have to do with CoreVideo and D3D playing videos? Nothing. The fact that OpenGL existed before DX is another red-herring.


As for CoreVideo and CoreImage, I know people who are on those teams at Apple and have known them for years (even before they were at Apple). Much of these technologies were acquired by Apple when they bought companies (just like Microsoft does).

Fallacy. Show me where Apple aquired CoreVideo or CoreImage technology. The specific implementation that Apple uses.

Well, you were the one that told me to boot up a copy and see for myself... wouldn't the same advice hold true for you?

Windows and Office run on over 400 million computers, Windows runs on over 700 million... How many does the digital librarian run on? Where can you download a copy of the OS to try out? (Microsoft.com has free 180-day and 360 trials of Windows BTW).

Tell me what Windows features I'll see (that weren't there in 10.0, in any of the Developer Previews, Rhapsody, OPENSTEP or NEXTSTEP... or even previous versions of the Mac OS).

Do you mean what features Windows had first or what features Apple copied?
Journaling, AES file system encryption, Fast User Switching, ACL's, Integrated compression, task-based interface (wizards, context sensitive icons, etc.), the new system preferences categories, file system/kernel events, true multitasking, arbitrarily extensible metadata streams, DVD burning (on many levels), firewire networking (IP over 1394), desktop search, video hardware acceleration (decoding, de-interlacing etc.), hardware accelerated image processing, file grouping, ... Microsoft beat OS X to all of these things among others.

really, that sucks. i believe that is the reason why vista seems to only have the windows logo as a start button, which on the other hand is a direct copy of the apple-menu, only that microsoft has taken apple's top-of-the-screen-bar to the bottom of the screen. how innovative of them

The words "start" are still there in Vista Beta 1. I'm posting from it now.

[BGil]

I'm really not posting to educate you (that would require me caring about you in some manner... which I don't ), but I'll post a screenshot anyways.

Again, this is not about "file search" but specifically emails, appointments, contacts, tasks, saved searches, live queries, the plugin system for new formats, and file metadata. That's "desktop search". Think Windows Desktop Search, Find Fast, Google Desktop Search, X1, and Lookout not "file search" as imployed in Jaguar, Win9x, or Linux (not Beagle).

And why do you keep bringing up the Digital Librarian and NeXT stuff anyway? What NeXT did before Apple purchased them has no bearing on the current Mac OS and it's specific implementation of CoreVideo, window widgets, or the new searchkit additions in Tiger. You claiming NeXT as if it was Apple building that OS is like claiming Palm built (or had anything to do with) the BeOS or Bill Gates/Microsoft and Lookout or the original OS he gave to IBM. It have nothing to do with what I'm talking aobut.

But you have admitted that you are completely unaware of any of the technologies that I mentioned.

I though you said you didn't make stuff up?

[JFreak]

The words "start" are still there in Vista Beta 1. I'm posting from it now.

oh, great. now the ONLY good thing i had to say about vista is gone. was it like that (without the start word) at some point or did i just imagine that the button would have been more stylish? anyway, my bad. i was mistakenly thinking that the new windows would somehow look better than the old.