A Flash Based 4GB iPod mini?

[dekator]

According to this (http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=DBNJWESFQZQM0QSNDBCCKH0CJUMEKJVN?articleID=169400638) article, Apple have bought 40% of Samsung's NAND memory output at a very competitive price. Looks like the iPod mini might be Flash memory based in the future.

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

eeTimes reports (http://www.eet.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=169400638) that Apple Computer plans to buy as much as 40% of the NAND Flash Memory supply from Samsung Electronics in the second half of this year.

According to one analyst's sources:

Samsung has offered Apple “extremely low prices on its [Flash] parts” in order to convince Apple to switch from HDD storage to [Flash] memory for the 4-GByte-density iPod.

The report said iSuppli believes that Samsung has offered to match prices from the HDD suppliers, even though current microdrive prices are about half the cost of the equivalent flash density.

The reason for the price cut would be to lock up Apple as a customer to supply Flash memory for a Flash-based iPod mini which currently falls at the 4GB price point. Tom's Hardware (http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20050819_164307.html) provides more thoughts from iSuppli's analyst.

[clayj]

For the record, I'll buy a 2GB - 4GB flash-based iPod. The current 1GB is just too small for the amount of music I'd like to be able to carry around (I have a 60GB iPod Photo with ALL of my music on it).

EDIT: And yes, it needs an OLED screen and some method of controlling playback. Shuffle != OK with that much music.

[Macmaniac]

Getting 4gb minis has been very hard, I have talked to a few people and a lot of stores are running out of them and the distributors are not getting any more from Apple. Could be a good sign of minis at Apple Expo Paris:)

[KittenKrusher]

Wouldn't this most likely be a 4GB Shuffle than a 4GB Mini Flash. Just keep all Mini's 6GB and throw in a 4GB Shuffle.

[~loserman~]

Wouldn't this most likely be a 4GB Shuffle than a 4GB Mini Flash. Just keep all Mini's 6GB and throw in a 4GB Shuffle.

Why use a hard drive in a mini when you can use flash instead. 2 to 3 times the battery life anyone?
Plus no moving parts to break?

[cleanup]

Getting 4gb minis has been very hard, I have talked to a few people and a lot of stores are running out of them and the distributors are not getting any more from Apple. Could be a good sign of minis at Apple Expo Paris:)

A four-gigabyte player with no screen?

The shuffle has no screen because it can't really hold enough music to truly warrant one. You can only hold at most a few hundred songs. Would you really want to be shuffling a thousand songs with no easy way to choose that new song you just got?

I would love a flash-based iPod mini. It'd mean enormous battery life and a thinner profile, and a much lower weight, but keep the screen and the Click Wheel. That would be bliss.

[dansgil]

Also, they could just offer a 4 gb Flash iPod mini, and a 6 gb Flash mini that contains multiple flash clips totaling 6 gb.

[ham_man]

This would be a 4 gig flash Mini. A Shuffle with that much space to navigate? No way in hell...

[Bibulous]

t.

[BornAgainMac]

A 4GB iPod mini with flash will have a screen. The shuffle with no screen at 512 Mb was fine. I bet this new iPod will be super thin even at the expense of 2 to 3 times longer battery.

[ccool2ax]

This is a great idea. If apple keeps the player the same size (Which is likely since 4GB CF cards exist), then it would get something like 25-30 hours (20-25 hours color) of battery. not to mention instant-access to files with no lag... The only barrier to flash memory overtaking HD entirely in portables is excessive price, but if they match the MD price, then everyone wins.

[Village]

Getting 4gb minis has been very hard, I have talked to a few people and a lot of stores are running out of them and the distributors are not getting any more from Apple. Could be a good sign of minis at Apple Expo Paris:)

If you remember, last year Apple restricted the Student Union (or whatever it was called) Mac + iPod deal to the 4g full size iPods. This year they've included the Minis - could it be to move out the last stock before a flash-based refresh? I'm now glad that I chose to hold out on a Powerbook purchase until after Paris and forego the free iPod Mini. Here's hoping for a nice Powerbook and a flash Mini!

[Stella]

Too much memory without a screen.

A 4gig, or 2gig Shuffle is useless for anything but random, if the interface to Shuffle remains unchanged - too longwinded to find the track you want.

[~Shard~]

Nothing but good can come of this. Suppliers are competing for Apple's attention, even apparently slashing prices to attract Apple's business, which is great. Flash in a 4 GB mini would conserve a lot of battery life, which could lead to extended life in general, or, how about channeling that extra power into running a color screen? Either way, the mini would be definitely improved. This would also address the complaints some people have about the shuffle, saying there isn't quite enough storage to meet their needs, yet they don't want a HDD-based player. Lastly, this would potentially address the supply issues Apple has supposedly been having as of late, with 4 GB minis being hard to find.

Sounds like something that might be announced at the Paris Expo! ;)

[~Shard~]

Too much memory without a screen.

A 4gig, or 2gig Shuffle is useless for anything but random, if the interface to Shuffle remains unchanged - too longwinded to find the track you want.

Agreed - even if they make the 4 GB mini a flash-based player, they shouldn't turn it into a shuffle. As you say, for that amount of music, you need a screen to properly navigate and organize your music. Give the 4 GB iPod flash, but keep it as the mini, don't make it a shuffle. :cool:

[Dagless]

oo it would be very light! and have very low power consumption i suppose.

i'd like to see this.

[AoWolf]

Well over all it would be a good thing I feel almost sad about this. I must be the only one who finds some sort of pleasure in having a HD. Oh well faster load times would be nice.

[awesomebase]

I can't imagine that the iPod Mini would retain its same form using a 4GB flash memory part. More likely Apple will keep the iPod mini as a hard-drive based system and up it to 8GB and introduce a "iPod Shuffle" with 4GB but have a very small LCD screen on it. They may even take the iPod Mini and flatten it out. If they kept it the same size, they would have much more room to provide more battery life, but, what would be the point? Even with the same battery life, the iPod Mini running a 4GB flash card would last almost 5 times longer, I see no reason to do that. On the other hand, it may be that the iPod shuffle just stays put and the iPod mini just "evolves" into a smaller device and perhaps with only flash memory so that the original iPod is the only hard-drive based system. Apple likes to keep the lines "clean" within their product categories. Either way, it will be a great thing to offer, I hope it will come with a color screen as well.

[nsjoker]

This is a great idea. If apple keeps the player the same size (Which is likely since 4GB CF cards exist), then it would get something like 25-30 hours (20-25 hours color) of battery. not to mention instant-access to files with no lag... The only barrier to flash memory overtaking HD entirely in portables is excessive price, but if they match the MD price, then everyone wins.

naw that's not the only barrier keeping flash out of laptops/desktops. flash memory, both NOR and NAND have only a certain number of write/erase cycles before wear takes it's toll on the insulating oxide layer found in flash mem :rolleyes:

[podfuture]

Flash 4G Mini.
When do we see it ... early Sept is the rumor.

Thin, like a Shuffle.
Same display as the current Mini, but smaller overall (40mm x 80mm)?
White plastic top, stainless steel bottom, like the iPod.

Maybe this means the Mini is going to 8G with color screen (Mini Photo?).

This is one strategy to get the necessary price difference in the Mini product line.

Bottom line... this flash mini brings serious trouble to Creative, Sandisk, iRiver, Rio.

I own several iPods but I'll go for this one for sure. Light, rugged, and easy on the battery.

[aswitcher]

yes please

Maybe use the extra power for a color screen.
4GB Color Flash Mini at $149, the perfect holiday gift.


Yep, that would be a sale for me.

[~Shard~]

Flash 4G Mini.
When do we see it ... early Sept is the rumor.

If Apple is indeed going to do this, then do it right - have it ready to go in order to capitalize on Xmas sales. :cool:

[mlrproducts]

While I like the idea, isn't there going to be a point where the iPod market is saturated???

It seems like landfills will begin to look like blue, green, silver, and pink rainbows.

[runninmac]

...
Plus no moving parts to break?

Well the click wheel does move a little but I could see them intoducing a presure sensitive wheel

[podfuture]

If Apple is indeed going to do this, then do it right - have it ready to go in order to capitalize on Xmas sales. :cool:

Exactly- Apple goes all out for Christmas. Looks like about half the people that own iPods actually have two!. What else would make people buy a third iPod- a super cool Flash Mini!!

So to be ready for Christmas and get the tail end of Back-To-School Apple has to announce in a matter of days.

Sept 6 to be exact (from talk on the street).

[sunwarrior]

Flash memory is slow compare to harddisk.

[PlaceofDis]

interesting news indeed. i am looking forward to seeing what apple does with this.... they keep innovating, which is why the iPod is still on top

[~Shard~]

Flash memory is slow compare to harddisk.

Since that statement is completely wrong, I'll assume you are joking. The typical access time for a Flash based SSD is about 35 - 100 microseconds, whereas that of a rotating disk is around 5,000 - 10,000 microseconds. That makes a Flash-based SSD approximately 100 times faster than a rotating disk. :cool:

[PlaceofDis]

Since that statement is completely wrong, I'll assume you are joking. The typical access time for a Flash based SSD is about 35 - 100 microseconds, whereas that of a rotating disk is around 5,000 - 10,000 microseconds. That makes a Flash-based SSD approximately 100 times faster than a rotating disk. :cool:

and even if it was slower (not that it is) it would be negligible to a the average person to notice. the benefit of having a more dependable form of disk is what matters here. Flash memory will outlast Hard Drive based simply because there are no moving parts, and it conserves more battery life too.

[NicP]

Since that statement is completely wrong, I'll assume you are joking. The typical access time for a Flash based SSD is about 35 - 100 microseconds, whereas that of a rotating disk is around 5,000 - 10,000 microseconds. That makes a Flash-based SSD approximately 100 times faster than a rotating disk. :cool:

access time is faster but transfer time is slower

of course for something like an mp3 player it really dosent matter

[atakordie]

What is the component for the internal iPod cache? I always assumed it was a flashed-based component. Maybe 32 MB or so. Recently with the video iPod rumors, I have been wondering how Apple would make a video-pod work, if they in fact are working on it. 32 MB would be too small of a cache for such a greedy thing as video. Just thoughts, but would it be anywhere reasonable for a cache as large as 4 GB?? It would be expensive.

[madmaxmedia]

The main negative (for those who asked) is cost, flash memory is more expensive than a small hard drive (at least in the 2 to 4+ GB range.)

EDIT- Ahhh, this is interesting-

[quote]“The report said iSuppli believes that Samsung has offered to match prices from the HDD suppliers, even though current microdrive prices are about half the cost of the equivalent flash density,” the EE Times reports. “Samsung would still reap profits, even at aggressive pricing levels, Kim said, adding that ‘sewing up the marquee iPod memory business is well worth the reduction in margins’ for Samsung.”[quote]

This would give a lot of creedence to the move, and give Apple a significant advantage over the other music player makers. I think they would be able to have a thinner, smaller player with more battery life and better sound quality (Shuffle has it for reasons I won't go into here), at the same price as the current Mini. Sweet!

[nagromme]

This makes MUCH more sense than a 4 GB (or even 2 GB) shuffle, since a screen becomes more important with a larger collection.

I predict the shuffle stays at 1 GB, and the Mini comes in at 2 and/or 4 using flash. (When? Don't ask me. With color screens? Maybe not: that could be just for a bigger 6-10 GB HD Mini, to keep the flash Minis cheaper. Or maybe color Minis have to wait for next year.)

Flash Minis (maybe thinner?) would be the flash player I always expected Apple would wait and make--only instead they entered the market earlier with the shuffle. But as flash prices drop, higher-capacity iPods using flash RAM is inevitable.

I would have thought it would take longer for prices to drop enough, so a flash Mini would be a little further away... but maybe with a big enough order it's possible.

[corywoolf]

bummer, found this link on digg but guess the news already is out.

http://www4.shopping.com/xPF-Apple_iPod_Shuffle_4_GB

looks as though it has a screen. this picture isn't of the new one I am guessing. Read the reviews... how is there already reviews? :confused: :eek:

[~loserman~]

naw that's not the only barrier keeping flash out of laptops/desktops. flash memory, both NOR and NAND have only a certain number of write/erase cycles before wear takes it's toll on the insulating oxide layer found in flash mem :rolleyes:

Hmmm
I thought the number of read write cycles for flash memory was much higher than hardrives

[skullsplitter]

The massive battery life on the shuffle if due to no screen and no HD right? But it's battery must also be much smaller than a mini's so depending on how much power the screen sucks this thing could run for .......? ages? Lets hope new colour....orange, maybe yellow.

[~Shard~]

and even if it was slower (not that it is) it would be negligible to a the average person to notice. the benefit of having a more dependable form of disk is what matters here. Flash memory will outlast Hard Drive based simply because there are no moving parts, and it conserves more battery life too.

Absolutely right. Flash definitely has many advantages over HDDs.

access time is faster but transfer time is slower

of course for something like an mp3 player it really dosent matter

I assumed we were talking access time, as that's essentially all that matters - as you say, txfer time doesn't really matter when it comes to something like an MP3 player.

[~Shard~]

The massive battery life on the shuffle if due to no screen and no HD right? But it's battery must also be much smaller than a mini's so depending on how much power the screen sucks this thing could run for .......? ages? Lets hope new colour....orange, maybe yellow.

Yep - or, as I mentioned previously, just pipe some of that excess power to a color screen. :cool:

[nsjoker]

pshh flash... bring on holographic memory apple :rolleyes:

[mccoma]

might as well do a flash based 4gig color Mini, remove the 512mb shuffle, and drop the 1gig shuffle into the sub-$100 region. That will boost some Christmas sales.

The only problem with this is the statement that Samsung switch manufacturing from DRAM production to do this. That will make memory prices go up. Might want to buy your memory soon.

[Mechcozmo]

Since that statement is completely wrong, I'll assume you are joking. The typical access time for a Flash based SSD is about 35 - 100 microseconds, whereas that of a rotating disk is around 5,000 - 10,000 microseconds. That makes a Flash-based SSD approximately 100 times faster than a rotating disk. :cool:

All very true, but my 1G iPod transfered music a lot faster than my 512MB Shuffle.

Could it be FireWire vs. USB 2.0? Maybe... but it takes such a long time that I don't bother much anymore with transfering files to the Shuffle. Just an occasional song swapping out.

[nagromme]

Yes, Firewire (even FW 400) is faster than USB2 for all but the briefest transfers. Plus, the ports on keyboards tend to be USB1.1, and if you attach a Shuffle that way, you don't even get full USB2 speed.

[usarioclave]

This is off-topic, but if flash and small perpendicular drives have performance that is almost as good as a normal 2.5" drive, at what point will they become main storage for laptops?

Imagine what you could do to a laptop form factor if you could remove the hard drive and the CD/DVD. You could have a VAIO, but smaller...basically a screen, a keyboard, and a power adapter.

Heck, I use my CD maybe a few times a month. I'd much rather have an external optical drive and a really thin iBook.

[oskar]

I think if the iPod mini were lighter, it would make it feel rather cheap. I don't think Apple will be changing the form in some time either. Unless their iPod accesories are ready...

[freiheit]

Too many form factors spoil the soup... or something. Imagine Apple making 4 different iPod form factors at one time: Shuffle, Flash Mini, Mini and "regular". Imagine the trouble for third parties trying to make docks to fit all those form factors. Maybe Apple doesn't care since they don't make iPod docks anymore, but it seems excessive especially when the idea behind business is to reduce costs in order to increase profits.

I'd be interested in a flash-based iPod Mini. Anytime I'm going to be carrying something around on my belt or in my cargo pockets I like to be sure the player won't skip or scratch the disk -- that's why I don't carry a Discman anymore.

[JD24]

Too many form factors spoil the soup... or something. Imagine Apple making 4 different iPod form factors at one time: Shuffle, Flash Mini, Mini and "regular". Imagine the trouble for third parties trying to make docks to fit all those form factors

I agree with that.

I also don't think the battery life will increase more than 50% percent.

My wishes:

- 6GB Ipod MINI (FLASH) / i guess we'll only see 4GB
- same iPod MINI case shell (i like it a lot)
- please no plastic front case (like regular ipod)
- as soon as possible :)
- EDIT: 199,- EURO :D


I don't need color display but a OLED display would be
awesome. Something like the new SONY FLASH based player.

Regards, JD

[lilrabbit129]

I don't think that the mini would get much lighter. One of the "little touches" that iPods have are that they FEEL substantial. Neither the original iPods or the mini have ever felt "cheap". I think apple would rather add functionality, or battery power to the mini than make it lighter.

This is one of the reasons I don't like the Shuffle. It just does not feel as substantial as any ipod. It feels cheap. I understand that the shuffle is meant to be as light as possible, but the mini is more of the middle ground between the big "bring everything AND the kitchen sink" 4g iPods and the "super light duty, feather weight, one playlist or so at a time" Shuffle.

[GilGrissom]

Yes, Firewire (even FW 400) is faster than USB2 for all but the briefest transfers. Plus, the ports on keyboards tend to be USB1.1, and if you attach a Shuffle that way, you don't even get full USB2 speed.
Ah right, thanks for that. You've taught me something! Its confusing on paper, as FW 400 is said to be 400Mbps and USB 2.0 480Mbps. But I guess thats not everything and practicalities and other technical bits and bobs come into it!

[GilGrissom]

Hmmm, with all this hype and increase over flash-based memory I think it is perhaps getting a little too close to iPod mini terrain. I'm not sure. Yes Apple could use these 4Gb modules in the minis over the hard drives, but that would not leave much for shuffle improvements, especially with past rumors and current strange indications from some of your previous posts about a 4Gb shufle. I think maybe the shuffle will get the 4Gb mini storage level, and the mini will either go higher on flash (if it can) or go higher on a hard drive (if that is also possible!), possbly decreasing the gap between mini and classic ipod. This will leave the classic ipod to increase its capacity much more, but thats another topic.

Ofcourse Apple could release 4Gb shuffles with 4Gb/6Gb minis, both with flash-based memory, as long as the shuffle doesn't get a screen. If the shuffle gets a screen and is going high capacity flash, the mini needs something new, bigger hard drive perhaps, to get it away from the shuffle. I'm not sure which one is better or more preferred!
You guys know more than me.

I would love to see even cheaper shuffles. If they do drop the 512 shuffle I'm gonna try and pick myself up one cheap, or wait for the 1Gb shuffle to drop down to at least the 512Mb price point.

Maybe Apple doesn't care since they don't make iPod docks anymore
Really? I keep learning today!

This makes MUCH more sense than a 4 GB (or even 2 GB) shuffle, since a screen becomes more important with a larger collection.

I predict the shuffle stays at 1 GB, and the Mini comes in at 2 and/or 4 using flash.
Yes, I think thats partly what I'm trying to say. Its all a bit confusing!
I hope the mini doesnt drop tp 2Gb!

[Hattig]

How does this sound?

iPod Product Range Autumn 2005

1GB Shuffle $99
2GB Shuffle $139
4GB Shuffle $179 (w/ screen, little thicker/heavier than Shuffle)

6GB iPod Mini $199
8GB iPod Mini $249

20GB iPod $299
40GB iPod $399
80GB iPod $499

I'd expect around about a ±10% price deviation upon release - possibly the 4GB Shuffle will be $199 and have smaller size and flash memory as the differentiator against a $199 iPod Mini.

[Jesus]

how about multiple 4gb flash modules inside a ipod mini case the same sizze, as the tho flash modules would take up twice as much room as a hard drive, but as flash memory needs less bttery, you could shrink the batery but mainain or sighly increase battery life. of couse you could just put a 8gb MD in the mini and save money.

personally I would innsantly buy a 4gb, thin, flash, 30h+ battery life mini, and i hope they don't increse the speed of the shuffle as otherwise the shuffle is useless.



Jesus

[Platform]

Good news but could'nt they also cut prices on RAM :mad:

[tny]

and even if it was slower (not that it is) it would be negligible to a the average person to notice. the benefit of having a more dependable form of disk is what matters here. Flash memory will outlast Hard Drive based simply because there are no moving parts, and it conserves more battery life too.

There are technical limits to the number of read/writes you can perform on Flash memory. Those limits would tend to keep the lifetime of a Flash-based drive down to about the same length of time as the lifetime of a conventional disk drive. (Which is a vast improvement, by the way: a few years ago, Flash wouldn't have lasted as long.)

[tny]

Hmmm
I thought the number of read write cycles for flash memory was much higher than hardrives

No. For a long time, it was much LOWER than for harddrives. Nowadays, it's becoming comparable.

[podfuture]

Speaking of form factors.

The new flash mini has the 3.5mm audio on the bottom of the player.

The dock connector is the same. There is no player control socket on the top of the player.

So lots of new accessories will be required.

[JD24]

personally I would innsantly buy a 4gb, thin, flash, 30h+ battery life mini, and i hope they don't increse the speed of the shuffle as otherwise the shuffle is useless.


Yeah, same here. But i rather buy a 6GB version
with ipod mini dimension so i can use accessories
for that. I'd pay about 250,- Euro for such an ipod.

JD

[JD24]

Speaking of form factors.

The new flash mini has the 3.5mm audio on the bottom of the player.


That makes no sense to me? Why would apple do that?


The dock connector is the same. There is no player control socket on the top of the player.

So lots of new accessories will be required.

Hum, where did you get those infos?
I'm a little disappointed because i want a
regular ipod mini with flash instead :confused:

JD

[Hattig]

Speaking of form factors.

The new flash mini has the 3.5mm audio on the bottom of the player.

The dock connector is the same. There is no player control socket on the top of the player.

So lots of new accessories will be required.

What new flash mini? What do you know?

If that is true however, maybe there is an optical output too, and a dock would integrate an optical out adapter and port thing as well.

[Dave00]

I can't imagine that the iPod Mini would retain its same form using a 4GB flash memory part. More likely Apple will keep the iPod mini as a hard-drive based system and up it to 8GB and introduce a "iPod Shuffle" with 4GB but have a very small LCD screen on it. They may even take the iPod Mini and flatten it out.
I would surmise, same form factor initially, just swap in the flash card for the hard drive. There are large costs associated with changing an enclosure. Also, there is the issue of making a product line that is easily broken down into good/better/best. In the current lines, more space = more expensive. I'm not sure why you'd buy a 6GB mini for $50 more when you could have a 4GB with much quicker responsiveness and better battery life. A 4 GB shuffle just doesn't make much sense. True, I'm sure I'm not the only one who usually plays music on random play, and just skip a song you're not into. But every now and then you want to find a particular song or genre, and skipping songs just doesn't do it. Also, where would you put a 4gb shuffle in the lineup, especially considering the costs are the same as the HD? It'd have to be close in cost to the current 4gb mini, and battery life or none, you're going to choose the one with the screen.

My guess is that they'd have to up the high-end mini to 8GB (if this is feasible) and leave the 4GB in the same form factor with flash. But, we'll see. I'm sure marketing professionals are working feverishly on this as we speak. :)

Dave

[podfuture]

What new flash mini? What do you know?

If that is true however, maybe there is an optical output too, and a dock would integrate an optical out adapter and port thing as well.

For months, the accessory builders in S. China have been warned to not make accessories for the top. Apple keeps the players under lock and key so only the biggest distibutors have seen it.

Imagine how many are on the production lines right now. I think they will need millions to get through Christmas.

[~loserman~]

No. For a long time, it was much LOWER than for harddrives. Nowadays, it's becoming comparable.

I will defer to you on this. It isn't my area of expertise

[fixyourthinking]

What I don't understand ... Is why Toshiba and Samsung are spending big bucks on design and marketting of their own players - why not just be a supplier to Apple?

I would think that their own lackluster efforts actually increase Apple's price and therefore slightly hurt Apple's sales.

1) They compete - some people have to be buying their products

2) The marketing/design/ etc costs money - therefore raising the prices they must have for the hard drives they supply Apple.

[Loge]

Maybe Apple doesn't care since they don't make iPod docks anymore

They still make docks for the colour display models and the mini; these are available from the Apple web-site.

I definitely look forward to a flash based iPod with a screen, and around 4GB for workouts. The single playlist available on the shuffle is just too limiting.

[podfuture]

[QUOTE=adzoox]What I don't understand ... Is why Toshiba and Samsung are spending big bucks on design and marketting of their own players - why not just be a supplier to Apple?

Samsung is much bigger than its component division. But remember they are also up-and-coming supplier of MP3 CODECS. Any semiconductor supplier wants to grab an Apple contract. Samsung gets to punch out some key component competitors in the process. Flash memory prices were coming down anyway. So Samsung gets to accelarate this outcome (which is great as it gives an earlier price benefit to iPod customers).

And they are smart enough to know the Yepp is not penetrating beyond Asia with any real numbers.

Can't beat 'em, join 'em.

[m4r71n1]

Generally what you'll find is that even if apple is buying this extra flash based memory and apple is creating flash based minis then we still wont see them for a while.. ie. after the expo

[Fabio_gsilva]

Agreed - even if they make the 4 GB mini a flash-based player, they shouldn't turn it into a shuffle. As you say, for that amount of music, you need a screen to properly navigate and organize your music. Give the 4 GB iPod flash, but keep it as the mini, don't make it a shuffle. :cool:

It would be bad to coexist a iPod Shuffle with 4gb, and a iPod mini with 4gb and screen, just like today, but both using flash memory instead of mini HD???

This way, those searching for an iPod smal, and with great capacity, but don't care for a LCD screen would fit their needs and save some money. (and, like some people say, will enjoy better bass quality...)

Others who think it's important to have a small screen to control things better would be pleased too.

Just my thought.

[sun25]

This sounds like a fantastic thing for the Ipod. I would love to see a mini mini, and then a color egular mini

[podfuture]

Generally what you'll find is that even if apple is buying this extra flash based memory and apple is creating flash based minis then we still wont see them for a while.. ie. after the expo

Best info leaks point to a release Sept 6. I'm counting the minutes.

[~Shard~]

It would be bad to coexist a iPod Shuffle with 4gb, and a iPod mini with 4gb and screen, just like today, but both using flash memory instead of mini HD???

This way, those searching for an iPod smal, and with great capacity, but don't care for a LCD screen would fit their needs and save some money.

I would counter that there are not many people out there who would want a 4 GB player without a screen. Managing 512 MB/1 GB without a screen - sure, okay, manageable - trying to manage 4 GB of music (over 1000 songs) without a UI? Many people would quickly become frustrated I believe.

Of course, I could be wrong... ;)

[kirk26]

I'm suprised that Macrumors didn't report this when the rumor over a week ago about this. Glad to see Macrumors actually posting rumors once in awhile again.

[Koree]

Looks like apples getting a nice deal, hope samsung will not take over the states like it has Korea.

Many people in Korea call the country the Republic of Samsung, because they own EVERYTHING, from the starbucks here, to the outback steakhouse. Walmart esque stores, and even a very popular car line.

[mrgreen4242]

I'd really like to see a 4gb flash mini that looks liek the current mini but is slightly thinner and just a hair shorter. Should be easily doable, and it would be just the right size for a shirt pocket then. (It fits now, but is just a little bulky to be comfortable). Getting the 'advertised' battery life up to a full 24 hours shouldn't be hard, as flash memory uses less power than moving HDD and better batteries are available, and the 2G mini generally gets close to that anyways, from what I hear.

Also, since there shouldn't be any need for a buffer to hold cached music, they can eliminate all the memory in the mini other than what the player needs to run it's OS, etc. That should help get costs down, and coupled with always lowering component costs and lower material costs if they shrink it some I'm hoping to see a 4gb flash mini at $149 EDU and $179 regular price. I think they could do really well with something like that.

Also, since all the full sized iPods have gone color, I think it may be wise to keep the mini B&W and focus on keeping a device that is just a music player and nothing else. Getting the HDD based mini's up to 10gb's will make it a great music only portable, and I think it will help keep the product affordable and streamlined.

[mrgreen4242]

Looks like apples getting a nice deal, hope samsung will not take over the states like it has Korea.

Many people in Korea call the country the Republic of Samsung, because they own EVERYTHING, from the starbucks here, to the outback steakhouse. Walmart esque stores, and even a very popular car line.

Don't worry, Microsoft and MobileExxon won't let that happen. Worst case is Samsung buys the other third.

[JD24]

Best info leaks point to a release Sept 6. I'm counting the minutes.

Sources? Did i missed something here?

[shadowmoses]

I'd personally love to see a colour ipod mini with at least 10gb....

4Gb shuffles would only do if they had a nice screen otherwise pointless 4gb of random music would be insane...

Anyway's i am looking forward to the Paris expo to see what steve has up his sleeve,

SHadOW

[mrgreen4242]

I'd personally love to see a colour ipod mini with at least 10gb....

4Gb shuffles would only do if they had a nice screen otherwise pointless 4gb of random music would be insane...

Anyway's i am looking forward to the Paris expo to see what steve has up his sleeve,

SHadOW

Would you really want a color screen on your mini? I mean, it's to small to be really useful for anything (you could argue the same for the iPod photo line, and the mini is even smaller), and all it would do is suck up battery life. I agree that a higher resolution and/or brighter contrast would be nice, but if you want all the bells and whistles why not stick with a full size iPod and leave the mini to just being the best MP3 player on the market?

[podfuture]

Sources? Did i missed something here?

Non-quotable sources. But I'm on the ground with it. People in my business need to be ready.

No I haven't seen one. But I know that VPs and up for big US retailers have seen these and had a bit of playtime.

If it is not Sept 6 then this is going to trip up some folks in retail.

[sushi]

Why use a hard drive in a mini when you can use flash instead. 2 to 3 times the battery life anyone?
Plus no moving parts to break?
Exactly.

iPod mini that:
- is lighter
- has no moving parts
- is more duarable
- has longer battery life.

I would buy one in a heartbeat.

Sushi

[kainjow]

Flash is the future, hdds will be dead as soon as Flash prices fall :D

[xyian]

Wouldn't this move technically make it a iPod Shuffle? I mean, yes, it has a screen and that's different but the flash base makes it in the same group as the shuffle. I may have to put off getting that shuffle if it's going to have a screen!

[Yvan256]

Flash is the future, hdds will be dead as soon as Flash prices fall :D

Not really. Every time flash prices go down, a company comes up with a way to dramatically increase hard disk capacity.

This time it's the "perpendicular recording" method from Toshiba. Be prepared for a 30~60GB iPod mini in less than 2 years, and a 300~600GB iPod too.

[kainjow]

That is because the hard disk companies don't want to go out of business. You think mechanical devices will be around forever? You think gasoline-powered cars will be around forever? ;)

[ioinc]

I would counter that there are not many people out there who would want a 4 GB player without a screen. Managing 512 MB/1 GB without a screen - sure, okay, manageable - trying to manage 4 GB of music (over 1000 songs) without a UI? Many people would quickly become frustrated I believe.

Of course, I could be wrong... ;)

I think there are. Most of the people I know (including myself) use the random play feature most of the time.

After all, the only songs that are on the device are ones you have chosen to put there. You should like them all. If one comes on that you are not in the mood for skip to the next.

Its nice to have the screen once in a while, but not a great loss if it were missing.

[mrgreen4242]

Wouldn't this move technically make it a iPod Shuffle? I mean, yes, it has a screen and that's different but the flash base makes it in the same group as the shuffle. I may have to put off getting that shuffle if it's going to have a screen!

In my opinion, it's the form factor that decides what line a product is in, not the internal components. So something that looks like a mini is a mini, regardless what's inside. A shuffle with a little screen on it would still be a shuffle if it looked like a shuffle, in my book.

[qubex]

Okay, this is about the right time to dump my SAMSUNG stock...

At the very best, whomever drew up the deal should be investigated for failing to protect their shareholders' interests. At the very worst, they should be charged with securities fraud.

[mrgreen4242]

Okay, this is about the right time to dump my SAMSUNG stock...

At the very best, whomever drew up the deal should be investigated for failing to protect their shareholders' interests. At the very worst, they should be charged with securities fraud.

? They should be investigated for getting an exclusive contract with the worlds leading portable music maker? Sure they may be making less profit on this batch of modules, but between the sheer bulk of the orders and the future purchases from Apple for other players will surely make up for that. If it's true that Samsung is getting an exclusive or at least very good contract with Apple for iPods I would be willing to bet the stock will raise.

[~Shard~]

I think there are. Most of the people I know (including myself) use the random play feature most of the time.

After all, the only songs that are on the device are ones you have chosen to put there. You should like them all. If one comes on that you are not in the mood for skip to the next.

As I said, I could easily be wrong, so no argument there. But again, with so much music, regardless of if the person likes everything or not, what if they want to find "that one song"? Or not even that one song, how about "that one album"? It could be tricky, and frustrating for some shuffling through 4GBs of music as opposed to 512 MB/1 GB. Whereas the shuffle is a more compact library, some people will have their entire libraries on this mythical 4 GB shuffle - I know I wouldn't want to randomize my entire iPod without the ability to listen to certain songs/albums. But then again, maybe that's all some people do - just listen to their music on random, which is fair enough - we all have different listening habits. I just find a smaller unit, i.e. the shuffle, more conducive to random play and no UI, rather than a larger player which can store so much more music (let alone Notes, Calendar entires, Contacts, etc.)

But hey, to each his own! :cool:

[qubex]

? They should be investigated for getting an exclusive contract with the worlds leading portable music maker? Sure they may be making less profit on this batch of modules, but between the sheer bulk of the orders and the future purchases from Apple for other players will surely make up for that. If it's true that Samsung is getting an exclusive or at least very good contract with Apple for iPods I would be willing to bet the stock will raise.
An exclusive contract to sell well under market rates is a forfeit of profit and thus shareholder value. Since it significantly reduces taxable income, it is also tax fraud and a securities offence.

[d.perel]

imagine what this deal will do to the price of iPod Shuffles! Maybe now they will be cheap enough to sell them at 7-Eleven

[d.perel]

Wait... What about the MP3 player Samsung makes themselves? Weren't they rumored to be "iPod Killers," even though some of them got bad reviews? I sense an alterior motive...

[one3]

What about something like this? .... same (similar) form factor as iPod shuffle ... color screen, aluminum 'cap' to make it distinct? Just something I was messing around with.

http://www.one3.ca/ipodmicro-new.jpg

[madmaxmedia]

What would be the point of changing the location of the headphone jack? I have no idea who podfuture is, just speculating on what he said.

The Flash mini could possibly signal the beginning of squashing the Mini and Shuffle lines together. I mean if a 4GB Flash Mini with full interface costs $200, it makes the Shuffles a lot less attractive.

There were some reports recently that the Shuffle wasn't selling as good as expected (although it did get off to a hot start.)

I could still see room for a single Shuffle player perhaps, if the price goes to $99 for a 1 GB model. Don't know if they can really fit in a screen at that price, might not be worth the redesign either from Apple's standpoint.

[GilGrissom]

What about something like this? .... same (similar) form factor as iPod shuffle ... color screen, aluminum 'cap' to make it distinct? Just something I was messing around with.

<<SNIPPED>>
I'm liking it! Nice little piece you've done there! Will be interesting to see how exactly a screen gets implemented onto the current shuffle form factor, if it ever does reach it in reality. If its a long horizontal screen down the body like yours, will it have the buttons rotated 90 degrees from what they are now, such as in yours, or remain the same??...hmm...questions questions!!

But a great fun little mock up! Thanks! :)

Now wouldn't you be freaked out if this came true or was close?!! :p

[madmaxmedia]

Wait... What about the MP3 player Samsung makes themselves? Weren't they rumored to be "iPod Killers," even though some of them got bad reviews? I sense an alterior motive...

Samsung is a huge company with multiple divisions that are run somewhat independently. Overall, a deal like this would profit Samsung even if it's at the expense of their music player sales (which don't add up to much compared to their memory sales.)

Samsung will really need to ramp up production to make just the memory for Apple, which will result in better economies of scale for Samsung down the line.

[ObsidianIce]

yes please

Maybe use the extra power for a color screen.
4GB Color Flash Mini at $149, the perfect holiday gift.


that would be a swee gift but VERY unlikely that it will have a $149 consumer store price, i would gues $169-$179 conumer price as the lowest probably, but that's just my opinion.

[SiliconAddict]

How does this sound?

iPod Product Range Autumn 2005

1GB Shuffle $99
2GB Shuffle $139
4GB Shuffle $179 (w/ screen, little thicker/heavier than Shuffle)

6GB iPod Mini $199
8GB iPod Mini $249

20GB iPod $299
40GB iPod $399
80GB iPod $499


I'd expect around about a ±10% price deviation upon release - possibly the 4GB Shuffle will be $199 and have smaller size and flash memory as the differentiator against a $199 iPod Mini.


A little editing:

512MB Shuffle $49???? Could be dropped. Who knows.
1GB Shuffle $99
2GB Shuffle $149


4GB iPod Mini Sport (Same form factor as the Mini just renamed to something else to show that its flashed based.)$199
8GB iPod Mini $249

20GB iPod $299
60GB iPod $399

60Gb iPod Video $499
80GB iPod Video $599

Yes I still think the iPod video is on its way. :D What I like about the above is that it leaves you with two options in each category. Low end \ High end for the Shuffle. Low end \ High end for the Mini. Low end \ High end for the iPod, and the same with the iPod video.

[madmaxmedia]

I think the 512MB Shuffle will be dropped. It's not profitable for Apple to sell at that price.

I think the iPod Video will be $499, not $599. Apple will price it more competitively, since the original iPod Photo did not sell great. Getting more iPod Videos into people's hands early will spur more content production (available in iTunes.)

A little editing:

512MB Shuffle $49???? Could be dropped. Who knows.
1GB Shuffle $99
2GB Shuffle $149


4GB iPod Mini Sport (Same form factor as the Mini just renamed to something else to show that its flashed based.)$199
8GB iPod Mini $249

20GB iPod $299
60GB iPod $399

80GB iPod Video $599

Yes I still think the iPod video is on its way. :D

[SiliconAddict]

I think the 512MB Shuffle will be dropped. It's not profitable for Apple to sell at that price.

I think the iPod Video will be $499, not $599. Apple will price it more competitively, since the original iPod Photo did not sell great. Getting more iPod Videos into people's hands early will spur more content production (available in iTunes.)


Actuall it is. I saw a review of the various parts in the 512 shuffle. Apple is making a killing. Let me see if I can find it again...........

As for the photo. Apple always guts the first adopters with stiff prices. Nothing new here. I think Apple will do the same thing they did with the photo. Bring out the video at an insane price that some of us will buy and drop it down in a few months time. Its their standard MO.

[Edit] Found it...Link (http://www.emsnow.com/newsarchives/archivedetails.cfm?ID=8479)

iSuppli's teardown of the iPod Shuffle revealed the product achieves its compact size partly through a highly-dense design that places components extremely close together. The density of the iPod Shuffle design is high compared to the Rio Forge Sport, or even in comparison with the other dozens of other handheld devices. The iPod Shuffle also makes use of ultra-thin chip-scale packaged semiconductors, the first time iSuppli's Teardown Analysis service has actually seen these advanced devices inside a piece of electronic equipment.
[snip]

ue to its elegant, highly-integrated design and slimmed-down feature set-and despite its use of more advanced packaging for its chips-the iPod Shuffle manages to achieve a lower BOM cost than the Rio Forge Sport. The total direct BOM of the iPod Shuffle is $43.21. When manufacturing is added, iPod Shuffle> '> s costs $45 to produce, iSuppli estimates.



Its possible by this Fall prices of 512 chips could fall further....so if manufacturing dropped below $40??? :confused: Who knows.

[mrgreen4242]

An exclusive contract to sell well under market rates is a forfeit of profit and thus shareholder value. Since it significantly reduces taxable income, it is also tax fraud and a securities offence.

I'm sorry, but you really aren't getting it. First off, market price is whatever the market will pay for a given quantity of the product. If they can sell 1,000,000 units at $X, great, but if they want to sell 10,000,000 units they may not be ble to find a buy willing to pay more than 1/2 $X. If they can increase the amount sold while decreasing cost per unit (which is almost a certainty, as a huge part of the cost per unit on something like this would be R/D, plant set up, etc, and a relatively small portion of the cost is going to be raw materials) then they will make more money selling 10x the units at half the price.

Did you ever take Calc in high school? I think every Calculus textbook includes an example of minimums and maximums based on factory production... if each unit produced costs less than the last, or more accurately, the first unit costs a tremendous amount of money and each sunsiquent unit costs very little, there is a balance where lowering your price per unit is going to result in more profit.

I suspect that Samsung isn't selling parts to Apple at a discount just 'cause they are really nice fellows, but rather because in order to make the most money on their investment of R/D and manufacturing facilities they needed to sell more units, even if they had to lower the price to get the contracts.

But, go ahead and sell your shares, hopefully one of my 401k funds will buy them up for you. :)

[Poff]

imagine what this deal will do to the price of iPod Shuffles! Maybe now they will be cheap enough to sell them at 7-Eleven

Well.. they allready did/do that in Japan.. :)

[Lynxpro]

imagine what this deal will do to the price of iPod Shuffles! Maybe now they will be cheap enough to sell them at 7-Eleven


Just imagine if flash drops even more significantly and it becomes realistic to offer a 512 meg iPod Shuffle for $29.99. Its almost at that point now, but I mean for it to drop enough to where Apple can maintain its traditional margins. It also pits the Shuffle at nearly the same price point as the Napster cards at the Shell and Exxon gas station mini marts.

Now if only a Mac Mini could clock in at $299. That means the Wal-Mart folk "switching" en masse.

[sushi]

Just imagine if flash drops even more significantly and it becomes realistic to offer a 512 meg iPod Shuffle for $29.99. Its almost at that point now, but I mean for it to drop enough to where Apple can maintain its traditional margins. It also pits the Shuffle at nearly the same price point as the Napster cards at the Shell and Exxon gas station mini marts.

Now if only a Mac Mini could clock in at $299. That means the Wal-Mart folk "switching" en masse.
Apple has already reduced the 1GB Shuffle from $149 to $129.

I would expect a reasonable discount for the 512MB Shuffle would be in the $69, $79 or $89 range.

I doubt that we would see one in the less than $60 range given the price of manufacturing and Apple wanting to make a profit.

Sushi

[one3]

One more mockup ... a totally different form factor - just a small 'pill-shaped' player with a small built in color display in the side/top. Similar material to iMac with white plastic inside and clear lucite case.

http://www.o3i.net/ipoddisc.jpg

[podfuture]

Some nice drawings showing up in this forum. The Flash Mini is not a Shuffle.

It's like a little brother to the iPod. Stainless steel back, polished white front. About 9mm thick. About 40x80mm overall. Someone who has actually held one said it is pure elegance. He speaks of certain castration by Apple if any sketches or photos leak.

I think Apple is betting the farm on this Flash Mini. Street says 10M units are scheduled to deliver for Christmas.

One closely held secret is whether or not it has a photo-quality display. If so, this tells me the existing Mini formfactor may be on the way out.

I hear the price has to be north of $199, which might also support the theory that Mini is end-of-life. Absolutely no guidance available on this point.

Sorry, no quotable sources. you expect this kind of thing from newbies!

(am in Southern China)

[iMeowbot]

All very true, but my 1G iPod transfered music a lot faster than my 512MB Shuffle.

Could it be FireWire vs. USB 2.0? Maybe... but it takes such a long time that I don't bother much anymore with transfering files to the Shuffle. Just an occasional song swapping out.
It's a PortalPlayer vs. Sigmatel issue.

[mrgreen4242]

Some nice drawings showing up in this forum. The Flash Mini is not a Shuffle.

It's like a little brother to the iPod. Stainless steel back, polished white front. About 9mm thick. About 40x80mm overall. Someone who has actually held one said it is pure elegance. He speaks of certain castration by Apple if any sketches or photos leak.

I think Apple is betting the farm on this Flash Mini. Street says 10M units are scheduled to deliver for Christmas.

One closely held secret is whether or not it has a photo-quality display. If so, this tells me the existing Mini formfactor may be on the way out.

I hear the price has to be north of $199, which might also support the theory that Mini is end-of-life. Absolutely no guidance available on this point.

Sorry, no quotable sources. you expect this kind of thing from newbies!

(am in Southern China)

While I really don't believe you at all (I mean, anonymous sources from a newbie account with the name podfuture) just wanted to say that if Apple replaced the current mini form factor with something that looks like the full sized ipod (stainless steel back, white plastic front) it'll be a huge step backwards.

Ya, the iPods are nice looking and all, but the one piece aluminum casing of the mini is an excellent, amazing, perfect piece of equipment, much superior to the full sized iPod, IMO.

The sizes you mention are about what I'd like to see, but I think they should stick with the once piece multi colored aluminum construction of the current mini.

[podfuture]

[QUOTE=mrgreen4242]While I really don't believe you at all (I mean, anonymous sources from a newbie account with the name podfuture) just wanted to say that if Apple replaced the current mini form factor with something that looks like the full sized ipod (stainless steel back, white plastic front) it'll be a huge step backwards.

What name would you suggest I use? Anyway, lots of pods in my future and hopefully yours too.

I agree with you. I also like the current mini and think it is a cool formfactor.

What we all want must matter and has already been taken into account by Apple. Somehow they always get it right and we spend our days, nights (and all available bucks) playing with our cool Macs and iPods.

[qubex]

I'm sorry, but you really aren't getting it. [...] But, go ahead and sell your shares, hopefully one of my 401k funds will buy them up for you. :)
No, you're not getting it. Just for the sake of your information, SAMSUNG is one of the companies I track as a financial analyst. A rapid estimate shows that most likely they'll have to invest heavily in production simply to meet the extra demand, in order to fulfil contractual obligations that appear to be substantially under the market rate for "ordinary" (non-preferential) mid-sized bulk purchases. If SAMSUNG is doing this for any rational reason, they're doing it in an attempt to wean Apple away from hard-disk technology (as is incidentally noted in the original article). Once Apple is weaned away from hard-disk technology and is entirely reliant upon solid-state memory, they can always go and purchase their NAND-flash chips from whomever offers them the lowest price, and thus SAMSUNG won't necessarily retain the customer.

Suit yourself.

[qubex]

I'm a financial analyst. You don't fully understand the dynamics of SAMSUNG's business. Read my previous post: SAMSUNG doesn't have the production capacity to meet the increased demand and have no guarantees that they will retain the customer (Apple) in the medium- to long-term. Thus they have incurred sales costs (which I'm sure they'll account for in Goodwill terms) and investment obligations with no certainty of ROI.

Anyway the market has voted already: shares were down on after-close trading on 22 Aug and throughout 23 Aug. Chart (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=006400.KS&t=5d&l=on&z=m&q=c&c=)

[JD24]

It's like a little brother to the iPod. Stainless steel back, polished white front. About 9mm thick. About 40x80mm overall

I don't like that even if it's only 9mm thick.
I hardly can image how they will fit 4GB in that
small package.

I found this on a popular geman site:

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/59792

This shows a 8GB (16GB) solid state disk from samsung
and it is fitted in a 1.8" form factor case.
One chip holds 512 or 1024 MB so apple have to fit
4 chips together with the logic board in a really
small case. But maybe apple knows how like the always do.

I hear the price has to be north of $199, which might also support the theory that Mini is end-of-life.

End-of-life? I hope you're wrong. What about 6GB and
8GB iPod mini? What about all the accessories available
for ipod mini? There are still demands for these.

Ya, the iPods are nice looking and all, but the one piece aluminum casing of the mini is an excellent, amazing, perfect piece of equipment, much superior to the full sized iPod, IMO.

Just my words.

JD

[Dave00]

No, you're not getting it. Just for the sake of your information, SAMSUNG is one of the companies I track as a financial analyst. A rapid estimate shows that most likely they'll have to invest heavily in production simply to meet the extra demand, in order to fulfil contractual obligations that appear to be substantially under the market rate for "ordinary" (non-preferential) mid-sized bulk purchases. If SAMSUNG is doing this for any rational reason, they're doing it in an attempt to wean Apple away from hard-disk technology (as is incidentally noted in the original article). Once Apple is weaned away from hard-disk technology and is entirely reliant upon solid-state memory, they can always go and purchase their NAND-flash chips from whomever offers them the lowest price, and thus SAMSUNG won't necessarily retain the customer.

I think the reason for the ribbing you've endured on this thread comes from your earlier equation of samsung giving apple a good deal to samsung committing fraud. This really undermines your statement that you're a financial analyst. Companies routinely sell at or below current costs, for a variety of reasons, from economies of scale to market share to reduction of inventory, among other things. I'm not familiar with Samsung's reasons, but one could easily make the case that with a large order from Apple, they could corner the market in high-end flash memory. Even if a company does make a poor decision regarding a sale, this alone doesn't constitute fraud. Suggesting otherwise makes it sound like you really don't know what you're talking about.

As for your implication that Samsung's recent short term stock price changes reflects investor attitude over an unsubstantiated rumor with limited distribution, I think this is just more evidence of your limited understanding of how the stock market works. You're really a financial analyst? For who?

Dave

[mrgreen4242]

I'm a financial analyst. You don't fully understand the dynamics of SAMSUNG's business. Read my previous post: SAMSUNG doesn't have the production capacity to meet the increased demand and have no guarantees that they will retain the customer (Apple) in the medium- to long-term. Thus they have incurred sales costs (which I'm sure they'll account for in Goodwill terms) and investment obligations with no certainty of ROI.

Anyway the market has voted already: shares were down on after-close trading on 22 Aug and throughout 23 Aug. Chart (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=006400.KS&t=5d&l=on&z=m&q=c&c=)

I'm not a "financial analyst" but a sub-1% drop over a single day doesn't seem statistically significant to me. Also, the original article states that Apple has purchased about 40% of Samsungs production capability ("Apple Computer Inc. plans to buy as much as 40 percent of the NAND flash output of Samsung Electronics Co. in the second half of this year"), so I don't see why you believe they don't have the production facilities to supply this order.

Have you seen the contract that Samsung has with Apple? Do you have ANY IDEA WHAT SO EVER what the terms are? How can you be so certain that they won't be retaining Apple as a customer?

[djlu]

It looks like it will be a mini not a shuffle as Reuters Korea is now reporting this with an additional analyst comment from Deutsche Bank.

I guess there must have been some presentation or analyst meeting that actually showed the product.

Link site (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyID=2005-08-24T101804Z_01_MCC411694_RTRIDST_0_TECH-KOREA-APPLE-DC.XML)

Doug

[JD24]

It looks like it will be a mini not a shuffle as Reuters Korea is now reporting this with an additional analyst comment from Deutsche Bank.

I guess there must have been some presentation or analyst meeting that actually showed the product.

Doug

Do you have any sources? A link maybe?

I still hope that it'd be a regular ipod mini...

EDIT: I got the link (http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyID=2005-08-24T140922Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_India-213701-2.xml)

[mrgreen4242]

Does Reuters have a Korean site? I checked www.reuters.co.kr and it looks like a dating service to me (based on the pics, I don't read Korean and Googles Korean to English service didn't work for that page).

[512ke]

To jump into the middle of a thread...

Isn't Samsung trying to be a competitor to Apple in the MP3 player business?

How can they be a competitor and a supplier to Apple at the same time?

[VicMacs]

4gb without a screen... YEOW!

[iMeowbot]

Isn't Samsung trying to be a competitor to Apple in the MP3 player business?

How can they be a competitor and a supplier to Apple at the same time?
We're just coming off how many years of IBM-powered Macs shipping with Microsoft Internet Explorer? :)

[d.perel]

Imagine all new macs coming with 2 gb of ram standard :rolleyes:. IF Only...

[~Shard~]

Imagine all new macs coming with 2 gb of ram standard :rolleyes:. IF Only...

Of Flash memory?!? :eek:

[lightsout]

There are technical limits to the number of read/writes you can perform on Flash memory. Those limits would tend to keep the lifetime of a Flash-based drive down to about the same length of time as the lifetime of a conventional disk drive. (Which is a vast improvement, by the way: a few years ago, Flash wouldn't have lasted as long.)

As I understand it, for flash it is only WRITE cycles which count as wear. You'll get a million of so writes, so unless you write a lot of data to your iPod then you'll be fine. The no latency, no seeking, no moving parts, less heat, etc are all very great benefits of flash memory.

One thing to note, flash is slower writing then reading. Often benchmarks show them writing at ~10MB/sec tops, but reading at 30MB/sec. I'm not sure how fast the ipod disk is, but it may take longer to fill it (assuming nice sequential writes for the ipod hard disk).

[madmaxmedia]

Maybe that's why it takes longer to load songs onto a Shuffle than the other iPods?

If so, that would be one drawback of a flash iPod Mini. Not a biggie though-

[brians.account]

still waiting for my g5 powerbook with 100gb of flash memory. =D

[~Shard~]

still waiting for my g5 powerbook with 100gb of flash memory. =D

Hope you're patient... :cool:

[jimN]

...and someone will have to point out how wrong i am

but maybe we are all missing the point. Why not use this as some sort of bootable drive in the new intel macs so build a system that no pc could replicate and therefore no hacks can work around. The cost is negligible because of teh negotiated price and it would also bring about very rapid start up in the computers which some would appreciate.

Sure iPods are more likely but new mac systems are so much more exciting that yet another music box - doesn't everyone in the known world now own at least one ipod?

[GilGrissom]

...and someone will have to point out how wrong i am

but maybe we are all missing the point. Why not use this as some sort of bootable drive in the new intel macs so build a system that no pc could replicate and therefore no hacks can work around. The cost is negligible because of teh negotiated price and it would also bring about very rapid start up in the computers which some would appreciate.

Sure iPods are more likely but new mac systems are so much more exciting that yet another music box - doesn't everyone in the known world now own at least one ipod?
Well I'm not going to prove you wrong, I'll leave that to those smart alecs who will know all the details!

As far as I'm concerned you've raised a very interesting point here. As far as I am aware there is no reason why it can't be a totally plausible point as well!
A chip like this may be linked "somehow" to new desktops, if not when the new Mac Intel machines come out first, maybe later. It's at least a tiny weeny bit possible, right? In some sort of shape or form!

It reminds me of a discussion I had with my old technician collegue at college, he saw it totally feasable that you could put a ROM chip or some sort of flash-type chip inside a computer to hold the basic OS, or some aspect of it, or something, (I guess like a much more complex version of a BIOS, I'm not sure), he saw this as a great opportunity to reduce or stop the threat of viruses etc. The basic OS could not be changed etc, or could easily be booted up and replaced from this chip, resolving any damage that a virus could cause. It was very long winded and very interesting at the time. Sorry if it doesn't make any sense to you, I'm trying to remember as much detail as I can about it! Much of it went over my head! He knew what he was going on about anyway!

Anyhoo, very interesting point!

[jimN]

Anyhoo, very interesting point!

woo hoo, nice to know i'm not completely in cloud cuckoo land. I know that it is going to end up in the ipods but for low power usage you could fire up a laptop and run a basic suite of core apple utilities without having to trouble the hard disk. In fact if you turned your browser cache off (which isn't unfeasible when connection speed is high) you'd never need use the disk at all. Plus your chip wouldn't be pulling much juice if you were just browsing the forums, typing a document in pages.

So much potential, i'm wasted here!

[talksalot81]

I will be after an ipod later this year.... however at the moment i wouldnt buy one because the current machines dont have enough battery life, hence im mostly interested in the next gen!

The flash news sounds good however I would point out a couple of links.....here (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/15/apple_flash_ipod/) and here (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=744). Both are from late last year and are fairly sure of an imminent flash mini..... clearly they were both very wrong!

Adam

[~Shard~]

The flash news sounds good however I would point out a couple of links.....here (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/15/apple_flash_ipod/) and here (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=744). Both are from late last year and are fairly sure of an imminent flash mini..... clearly they were both very wrong!

Rumors of a "mini" flash-based MP3 player from Apple late last year?!? Just before the release of the iPod shuffle?!? Yeah, those were way off! :p :cool:

[talksalot81]

Rumors of a "mini" flash-based MP3 player from Apple late last year?!? Just before the release of the iPod shuffle?!? Yeah, those were way off! :p :cool:

Doh..... how right you are! That said, the articles arent actually written that way! I think these guys need english lessons not new ipods :D

So ignore me and i'll continue to read posts from those who know better and i'll shut up!

[~Shard~]

Doh..... how right you are! That said, the articles arent actually written that way! I think these guys need english lessons not new ipods :D

So ignore me and i'll continue to read posts from those who know better and i'll shut up!

No worries, just having some fun - it's all good. :) :cool:

[EricNau]

Would a flash based iPod eventually die just like flash drives? I know my Sony Flash Drive has a max of 1,000,000 read/writes, I guess after that it is just fried. Would the same idea apply to an iPod...if so, I would want a HardDrive one instead/

[GilGrissom]

Would a flash based iPod eventually die just like flash drives? I know my Sony Flash Drive has a max of 1,000,000 read/writes, I guess after that it is just fried. Would the same idea apply to an iPod...if so, I would want a HardDrive one instead/
At the same time, wouldn't hard drives also eventually fail?
The read/writes of flash memory and hard drives, and the swings and roundabouts have been mentioned.

[JD24]

I guess podfuture has some points here according to the rumor of
new ipod mini. I'm a little frustrated of the thougth that the new ipod
mini won't have an overall aloy case anymore :-(

It's like a little brother to the iPod. Stainless steel back, polished white front. About 9mm thick. About 40x80mm overall. Someone who has actually held one said it is pure elegance. He speaks of certain castration by Apple if any sketches or photos leak.

I think Apple is betting the farm on this Flash Mini. Street says 10M units are scheduled to deliver for Christmas.

One closely held secret is whether or not it has a photo-quality display. If so, this tells me the existing Mini formfactor may be on the way out.

I hear the price has to be north of $199, which might also support the theory that Mini is end-of-life. Absolutely no guidance available on this point.

Sorry, no quotable sources. you expect this kind of thing from newbies!

(am in Southern China)

[madmaxmedia]

I personally have the feeling that podfuture is legit. Obviously he could be anyone, but my feeling from his posts is that he is not making stuff up.

Just to go along with this speculation, putting the headphone jack on the bottom would probably indicate Apple is going for a similar configuration as the Shuffle- maybe it comes with a lanyard for example. This new flash Mini would be light enough, and I personally find the lanyard really handy, one of the better 'features' of the Shuffle. Having a screen and click wheel right there for instant access (instead of in your pocket) would make it even better. I prefer the aluminum shell of the current Mini's, but will go with either.

I think the announcement would come in Paris, well in time for holiday sales. I will buy a 8 GB'er if this turns out to be true.

[mrkgoo]

Would a flash based iPod eventually die just like flash drives? I know my Sony Flash Drive has a max of 1,000,000 read/writes, I guess after that it is just fried. Would the same idea apply to an iPod...if so, I would want a HardDrive one instead/

Yeah, but you don't realise how much 1 million writes is. If you write your disk, let's say a ridiculous number like 50 times a day, EVERY day, it'd still take you 55 years to 'fry' that bugger.

And let's say you were just reasonably busy and used it 20 times every weekday, it'd take you 200 years. I'm pretty sure you're not going to care if your flash drive is fried by that stage.

Realistically? You're probably not going to write more than 10 times every other day (especially if it's just your music player), then it could last as long as 500 years.

[Plymouthbreezer]

Here's what I'd like to see:

1GB iPod shuffle - $69
6GB iPod Mini (flash based, color screen) - $149
8GB iPod Mini (flash based, color screen) - $199
10GB iPod Mini (flash based? color screen) - $249
60GB iPod - $349
80GB iPod - $399

There we go... nice and simple. For only $100 more, you get 20 more GBs. :cool:

[talksalot81]

I thought the killer capacity was 20gb.... if so wont they keep that?

Adam

[GilGrissom]

I thought the killer capacity was 20gb.... if so wont they keep that?

Adam
20Gb is the current killer capacity because of several factors. Some include the fact that it gives a slim profile (compared to higher like 60Gb) and its the cheapest. If a 60Gb etc met the same requirements, such as dropping in price to the current 20Gb pice point it should probably sell just as well if the 20Gb was not there. Natural technological advances and price falls.

[aswitcher]

Here's what I'd like to see:

1GB iPod shuffle - $69
6GB iPod Mini (flash based, color screen) - $149
8GB iPod Mini (flash based, color screen) - $199
10GB iPod Mini (flash based? color screen) - $249



That would be a mazing price wise, but I think we are a few years away from such pricing.

[Caitlyn]

512MB iPS - $69
1GB iPS - $99
2GB iPS- $129
4GB iPod Mini - $149
6GB iPod Mini - $199
8GB iPod Mini - $249

Look on ThinkSecret or Original Dwelling and read the article about it. Those seem like fair prices. All iPod Minis would be flash and get that much memory from dual flash chips.

[Plymouthbreezer]

512MB iPS - $69
1GB iPS - $99
2GB iPS- $129
4GB iPod Mini - $149
6GB iPod Mini - $199
8GB iPod Mini - $249

Look on ThinkSecret or Original Dwelling and read the article about it. Those seem like fair prices. All iPod Minis would be flash and get that much memory from dual flash chips.
Yeah - they look pretty fair to me. Also, they would be flash based.

[MacSA]

If the iPod mini does move over to Flash memory, would we see an improvement on the already impressive 18 hour battery life?

[freiheit]

It reminds me of a discussion I had with my old technician collegue at college, he saw it totally feasable that you could put a ROM chip or some sort of flash-type chip inside a computer to hold the basic OS, or some aspect of it, or something, (I guess like a much more complex version of a BIOS, I'm not sure), he saw this as a great opportunity to reduce or stop the threat of viruses etc. The basic OS could not be changed etc, or could easily be booted up and replaced from this chip, resolving any damage that a virus could cause. It was very long winded and very interesting at the time.

This is actually a very old idea and has been done. I think at one point in the early PC days they had something called (and I may have the name wrong) ROM-DOS where the OS was indeed booted right from a ROM chip. This was back in the days when hard drives were unheard of on the consumer market and adding a second floppy disk drive could cost hundreds of dollars.

But doing this would negate the ability, for instance, to run Windows or Linux on a MacTel -- the system would just boot right into MacOS X and never look back. That could be Apple's plan, but I hope not. Then again, if VirtualPC for MacTel were able to run with the kind of speed seen in the Windows host version of VPC, then running Windows under MacOS X would be pretty sweet.

[madmaxmedia]

If the iPod mini does move over to Flash memory, would we see an improvement on the already impressive 18 hour battery life?

I think they will put in a smaller battery to make the overall package nice and thin. So the battery life may or may not increase, just depends on the overall final design-

[sushi]

I'm a financial analyst. You don't fully understand the dynamics of SAMSUNG's business. Read my previous post: SAMSUNG doesn't have the production capacity to meet the increased demand and have no guarantees that they will retain the customer (Apple) in the medium- to long-term. Thus they have incurred sales costs (which I'm sure they'll account for in Goodwill terms) and investment obligations with no certainty of ROI.

Anyway the market has voted already: shares were down on after-close trading on 22 Aug and throughout 23 Aug. Chart (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=006400.KS&t=5d&l=on&z=m&q=c&c=)
You remind me of a financial analyst friend of mine.

He predicted that the iPod would fail. Said that Apple was stupid. Said no one would purchase the iPod.

...I think he is still eating crow. You might want to start on your plate.

Apple's iPod nano will be popular and create and infussion of funds for Samsung. They can expand their production for the future.

Sushi

[aswitcher]

Nice design, ok price. MMm. Dont need one but they are tempting.

I guess next year is the year of the wireless video ipod.

[~Shard~]

Well, this iPod nano sure makes the shuffle seem a lot less attractive now. Perhaps this is what the shuffle should have been in the first place. :cool:

I'm still holding out for a video iPod - until then, my 3G will do me just fine.

[Doctor Q]

I'm still holding out for a video iPod.Get an iPod nano and flip through your album art really fast. Presto... video!

[~Shard~]

Get an iPod nano and flip through your album art really fast. Presto... video!

You're very creative Doctor Q, let no one ever tell you otherwise... :cool: