hey lookie, I'm actually asking Mac questions! [Archive]

vniow

Nov 21, 2002, 12:31 PM

In the coming few days, I may join you in the ranks of Mac goodness, but I have a few questions first.

The Mac that I may be getting is here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14353) and I was wondering.....

Is runing Jag on it a good idea? It's only got a 300Mhz G3 but it's maxed out with 320 MB RAM, more than what I have on my XP box, so will Jag run OK since it's got all that RAM?

And it's also got Photoshop 5 and Office 2001 on the disk. I couldn't care less about Office, but how is Photoshop 5? If I do indeed buy this, the most that I'm willing to spend on it (for now since this is an unexpected purchace) is the extra $129 for Jag, but only if it'll run OK, so no Photoshop upgrade for me. Is it worth it to keep OS9 just for that or am I better off installing the GIMP which I have much more experience in?

Thanx from the top Mac-less poster.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/winky.gif

Mr. Anderson

Nov 21, 2002, 12:52 PM

I'd just leave it in OS9 for now - Photoshop 5 is great - if you move to OSX.2 you'll have to run it in classic mode anyway. So it won't be as fast, that or you'd have to get an upgrade for Photoshop.

Good luck and welcome, maybe, to MacDom....

D

Groovsonic

Nov 21, 2002, 01:00 PM

My thought (and I am no mac expert) is that it would run really slowly. You probably are better off sticking with os 9. Jag is great, but OS 9 isn't bad either.

Just a thought!

lmalave

Nov 21, 2002, 01:03 PM

Hmmm...I've seen Jag run fine on a Beige G3 (with a 500MHz G4 upgrade, but really that's not much better than a 500 MHz G3). So I would say Jag would probably run fine on a 300 MHz G3, though there will be some slight sluggishness to the interface. The Beige G3 had an ATI Rage card with 16MB RAM, but I'm not sure how much benefit it got from it anway, since it wasn't Quartz Extreme enabled or anything. Also, the Beige G3 had 768MB RAM, but that's way more than needed to run OS X, and 320MB should definitely be enough.

In terms of apps, if Gimp works for you than you probably don't need to invest money and time into learning a Photoshop version that is already years out of date...

That being said, the biggest problem I see with this laptop is the 6GB hard drive. Installing OSX will take up about 2GB of that, and in this day and age the other 4GB will fill up in a hurry...

lmalave

Nov 21, 2002, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by Groovsonic
My thought (and I am no mac expert) is that it would run really slowly. You probably are better off sticking with os 9. Jag is great, but OS 9 isn't bad either.

Just a thought!

Yeah, OS 9 definitely isn't bad, but it will crash a lot more than OS X, and you'll probably find yourself longing for the iApps...

vniow

Nov 21, 2002, 01:10 PM

I've had the GIMP on my PC for awhile and I'm getting pretty good at it but how out-of-date is Photoshop 5 compared to the latest version of the GIMP? (v1.2 which in Linux terms can mean anything)
I've heard many times on here that Jag likes RAM more than it likes CPU speed so I think I'd be alright with it even if it was a little sluggish.

Since it's only got a 6 GB HDD, do I have enough room to dual boot OS9 and Jag if needed?

lmalave

Nov 21, 2002, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by edvniow

I've had the GIMP on my PC for awhile and I'm getting pretty good at it but how out-of-date is Photoshop 5 compared to the latest version of the GIMP? (v1.2 which in Linux terms can mean anything)
I've heard many times on here that Jag likes RAM more than it likes CPU speed so I think I'd be alright with it even if it was a little sluggish.

Since it's only got a 6 GB HDD, do I have enough room to dual boot OS9 and Jag if needed?

I haven't used GIMP and I haven't used a Photoshop version earlier than 6.0, but, yeah, I'm sure Photoshop 5 has a lot more features and is easier to use than GIMP.

In terms of dual booting, 6GB is definitely more than enough space (I would say about 3 to 3.5 GB total for both OSes?), but again that's that much less space that you have for your other stuff. Also, I think you'll have to erase your hard drive to install OSX, so make sure to save all the software first (esp. Photoshop 5 and Office 2001 which you don't have discs for) to a Zip disk or something. Fortunately, on Macs you don't have to worry about registry entries or anything, so I believe you'll be fine just copying the programs back and forth. Don't hold me to that, though...

Mr. Anderson

Nov 21, 2002, 01:37 PM

lmalave

Nov 21, 2002, 01:48 PM

Also, you can try to match up the Blueberry iBook's specs to other machines on the xbench thread:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14422

I think I saw some 400MHz and 500MHz G3s listed with xbench scores of 40+, whereas my friend's souped-up Beige G3 only scored a 39. But like I said, my friend's Beige G3 ran Jag quite well, so I think a 300MHz G3 Blueberry iBook with 320MB RAM and an ATI Rage Mobility AGP 2x should be fine :)

For more specs on the Blueberry iBook check here:

http://www.lowendmac.com/pb2/ibook.shtml

vniow

Nov 21, 2002, 02:04 PM

....a hard drive upgrade?

My dad drives by Fry's on his way to and from work so he ususlly picks up most of my computer stuff for me and I found a 20 gig 5400 IBM Travelstar (http://shop2.outpost.com/product/3388992/) at their site.
Is it possible (or recommended) to upgrade the drive myself?
I've had a fair amount of experience with computers so I don't think it would be too out of my league but I really don't know how difficult it may be.
I can probably squeeze out the extra $109 for that, it looks like a worthwile investment.

Oh and I checked out some similar systems in that xBench thread you linked too. Apple hardware seems to stand the test of time pretty well.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/smiley.gifhttp://www.ranchoweb.com/thumbs/36754.21.that5C27scool.gif

Add: I just found a site (http://www.go2mac.com/displaynews.cfm?newsid=7893) that describes in great detail how to upgrade an iBook drive.
Looks like some trouble.

But after reading thoroughly through it, I think I can manage. I've done some work with small and fragile stuff before and this looks like just that.

Has anybody else upgraded their iBook drive?

crassusad44

Nov 21, 2002, 02:27 PM

Shop around and see if can find a better iBook in the same price range. I've seen white iBooks as low as $5-600 (first generation). The Blueberry iBook has some limitations you should know of. The most important is the sceen. 800*600 is not much to brag about when using OS X. Also, 6 GB won't get you far, and it's not too easy to switch disks.

Photoshop 5.0 is a solid app, but 5.5 is much better (better color correction, and much better features). 6.0 would be even better (you won't miss the new features in 7.0 if you have 6.0 and don't use OS X).

I've heard of people with calmshell iBooks, who've got 512 MB RAM chips to work, although I can not guarante it will. 320 MB RAM is enough for OS 9, but if you want to use OS X, you'd probably want more, esp. with a G3.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2073468178
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2072972862
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2073736031
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2072712081

whocares

Nov 21, 2002, 02:34 PM

There's a tutorial on MacBidouille but it's in French...
(for changing the HDD, that is)

http://www.macbidouille.com/article.php?id=32

Looks kinda tricky but with a small screw-driver and some patience...

vniow

Nov 21, 2002, 02:57 PM

I actually checked out eBay before I considered this (even completed items) and the ones that were bought for less than $550 (my self-imposed limit) weren't too much of a better deal in my opinon.
A few of them had Photoshop, but none I saw had as much RAM.
The total price if I were to upgrade the HDD and Jag would be:
iBook: $365
IBM 20GB Travelstar: $120 (assuming tax)
Copy of Jag: $70 (I'm paying for half)
Total: $555 (yeah yeah, 5 bucks over, I can deal)
I looked on eBay extensively and I didn't find any iBooks with 320 MB RAM, 20GB 5400rpm HDD, Jag and Photoshop for less than $555.

I really don't care too much about power or speed in this case. (but I think I'll fill up 6 gigs really quick)
This is an unexpected purchace, I had intended to save my money, but this looks like a good investment if I'm going to move out (my parents for some strange reason agree) and don't want to lug arould a big PC.
A clamshell iBook should be all I need for now. Don't need firewire, PC card slots or a big screen. I've had various 15" monitors for years and was satisfied and I've used a similar Blueberry iBook at school from time to time so I have at least some experience with it.

Thanx for all your replies.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/smiley.gif

crassusad44

Nov 21, 2002, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by edvniow
[B]iBook: $365
IBM 20GB Travelstar: $120 (assuming tax)
Copy of Jag: $70 (I'm paying for half)
Total: $555 (yeah yeah, 5 bucks over, I can deal)

Not too bad a deal. You will enjoy the 14 GB extra.

Bon Mac-voyage! :)

cubist

Nov 21, 2002, 03:22 PM

I have 5.5, and it doesn't work in Jaguar.

I tried Gimp, but it seemed very complex to use compared to Photoshop. If you like Gimp better, though, I think you can get Gimp for Mac OS X from the Fink project. Let us know how it works for you.

Mr. Anderson

Nov 21, 2002, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by edvniow

This is an unexpected purchace, I had intended to save my money, but this looks like a good investment if I'm going to move out (my parents for some strange reason agree) and don't want to lug arould a big PC.

Ah, this is an interesting bit of news - sounds like there might be a story here....and don't give me crap for wanting to know, if you hadn't mentioned it, I wouldn't be asking ;)

But the iBook and new drive look to be a good deal - have fun with it and I hope to see better imagery from you once you get a real image editing app! :D

D

bidge

Nov 21, 2002, 04:06 PM

Just one last comment I ran Jag on one of those particualar iBooks with maxed out ram, didn't put OS 9 on it, it ran pretty sweet. It could run photoshop 7, pretty slowly but it was quite useable.

I would say get it. iPhoto ran reasonably smoothly.

email/ichat me rbijl@mac.com if you have any more questions on what stuff ran like.

Gus

Nov 21, 2002, 05:46 PM

That iBook also only has 256k of cache, which will make it slower than the Powerbook G3s that were xbenched on the other thread. The PB G3 400/500 has 1 MB L2 cache, and it makes a big difference. Other than that, I would definitely say the biggest drawback is the screen resolution like someone else already said. It's a nice laptop, but don't expect it to scream.

Gus

Computer_Phreak

Nov 21, 2002, 06:07 PM

why not run Linux on it? That way it would be reasonably fast and you could use the GIMP

kiwi_the_iwik

Nov 22, 2002, 03:54 AM

Hey ed - are you a student?

If so, hang on a sec...

I know you're not in the UK, but Apple UK have launched a programme to give students access to new iBooks and TiBooks as a rent-to-buy option, with interest-free credit for 3 YEARS! (see: MacUser magazine, 1 Nov. '02 page 9)

It also includes an AppleCare Warranty...

Like I said - I think this is currently only an Apple UK initiative, called iStudent (catchy, eh?). However, Apple US could be implementing a similar deal soon.

Check it out!

vniow

Nov 22, 2002, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by kiwi_the_iwik
Hey ed - are you a student?

Not anymore.
I graduated last year.

Thanx for the offer though, I'm sure to look out for it in the U.S.

MacBandit

Nov 22, 2002, 10:16 AM

I would not buy a 300MHz iBook with any intention of running OSX you will be much happier just sticking with OS9. Compared to you machine running XP the iBook will be almost useless running OSX. Though OS9 will run very fast.

Why do you have a need for X anyway? It is your first Mac after all.

JupiterZen

Nov 22, 2002, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by edvniow
In the coming few days, I may join you in the ranks of Mac goodness

Well congratulations ... (if you buy it that is ;) )

6 Gigs is indeed a bit small, so if you want to use OS 9 and OS X together it would be a good idea to upgrade the harddisk.

I think 10.2 will run just fine. I had it running on a powerbook G3 400Mhz with 384MB RAM and that was working just fine. So dual boot is a good option.

And about Photoshop and The GIMP. Like Dukestreet said. Photoshop will kick the GIMP's ass ... ALWAYS !!! There is nothing like Photoshop out there and version 5 is definately not to old. There are only small differences to version 6 and up.

I would say: Go for it !!! ;) ;) :D :cool:

MacBandit

Nov 22, 2002, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by JupiterZen

Well congratulations ... (if you buy it that is ;) )

6 Gigs is indeed a bit small, so if you want to use OS 9 and OS X together it would be a good idea to upgrade the harddisk.

I think 10.2 will run just fine. I had it running on a powerbook G3 400Mhz with 384MB RAM and that was working just fine. So dual boot is a good option.

And about Photoshop and The GIMP. Like Dukestreet said. Photoshop will kick the GIMP's ass ... ALWAYS !!! There is nothing like Photoshop out there and version 5 is definately not to old. There are only small differences to version 6 and up.

I would say: Go for it !!! ;) ;) :D :cool:

Actually in my personal oppinion Photoshop 5 was the best. 6 was just more complicated and 7 is just more so.

Just fine is a relative term. My B/W G3 400 with Radeon and Quartz enabled runs it just fine but that doesn't mean that the load times aren't still insanely long and system elements are jerky.

Fipher

Nov 22, 2002, 11:28 AM

I'd say that iw will run pretty, well. I have Jag on my 400 mhz iMac with 380 MB oif ram qand it runs great, but you do have a slower prossesor and a bit less memory so it will but a bit more slugish, if you have the money then get a new computer, if not then I guess you could upgrade to Jag. I'm not shure how well Photoshop 5 will run though, it might be pretty slow, but if PS 5 isn't too incrdibly important to you, like if it's not part of you job or anything, then you should upgrade to Jag.

I suggjes talking to a genius at the genius bar in an Apple store befor you make your final disition, he/she will know best.

orl770

Nov 22, 2002, 12:06 PM

Firstly, OS X Jaguar will run fine on that iBook (OS 9 will be MUCH faster, but Jaguar is SO MUCH worth the lag time you will feel and will be plenty usable - I have installed it on a 333MHz Rev D iMac and am quite happy with the performance).

However, the person selling you the iBook mentions that even though Photoshop is installed on the the iBook, he/she doesn't have the original Photoshop install disks, which means upgrading the drive is not an option if you want to keep Photoshop.

As for 6GB HD being big enough, if you are going to install Jaguar, you will need to wipe the harddrive (goodbye Photoshop) and then you can run OS9 and OSX side-by-side on a single partition.

So in conclusion, if you are going to buy this iBook and need Photoshop, leave it alone and don't add a new HD or Jaguar, and if you don't need photoshop and don't need lots of storage space, you could easily put Jaguar on the 6GB HD although you will not have a lot of room for tons of apps/MP3 files, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

Fukui

Nov 22, 2002, 12:14 PM

I have used a G3 400Mhz iMac at work, and if your going to use X on it, 512 MB+ of memory would be recomended. I got it up to 1GB and it ran pretty well.

300Mhz is pretty slow, especially since it is on a 66Mhz bus, so it is much slower than the mac at work I used (100Mhz bus). If I were going to get it, I would probably make a dual boot between PPC Linux and OS9, then you can use Photoshop and Office 2000 and still keep GIMP and all the other Linux stuff. OS X (Quartz) eats up screen space, so 1024 is a minimum, that iBook only has 800x600. If you were going to buy it, I would not get Jag, just spend some money on alot more RAM, upgrade the HD, and copy OS9 system folder, photoshop, and Office 2000 to another disk like a zip drive or something. It's really amazing that an entire OS can be moved to another computer just by copying the folder!

I would recomend though, saving alittle more and getting a 800Mhz iBook w/CDR-DVD, those are really fast.

Think about it. If you know your going to want a faster mac later, why spend your money now and again later? Then your getting an iBook for 555 and maybe later get a 999 iBook, your spending about 1499 anyway... better to just save alittle longer and spend only 1299 for MUCH faster system with bigger screen higher res-screen, DVD/CD-RW etc. IMHO.

vniow

Nov 22, 2002, 05:14 PM

First of all, it'a a done deal. I've already sent the order for it and I should get it by next Wednesday at the earliest.

Second, a couple people here have mentioned Linux and no offense, but there is no way in hell that I'm going to be staring at a console and typing in code all day.
I've tried Linux before and I didn't like it. I don't exactly have the bandwith to download at least three 650MB isos either since I have a max of 28.8k connection.

Photoshop isn't that big of deal for me right now. I already have a 667Mhz PC with more drive space than I'll ever need to run Photoshop if I need to. Right now, the GIMP is all I need. It would be great to have Photoshop, but it's not neccacaraly a requirement.
I'm not buying this as a powerhorse. If I needed that then it would be a lot cheaper to upgrade my PC.

I'm buying this for portability and convienence since I plan to move out of the house as soon as I get enough money to do that and chances are I won't have enough room for a mid-tower with a 17" monitor at first.
I don't have even close to enough cash to buy a newer or brand new computer of any kind now. This is the best deal I can get for the money and even if I did, I'd probably still buy it and save the rest of my money for much more important things.

It's already got the max anount of RAM (320MB, my PC has 256 and it runs just fine with XP) so I think Jaguar will run alright on it, especially since I'm buying a 5400rpm hard drive with 8MB cache, as long as I make everything smaller seeing as it's only an 800x600 screen and all.
And even if I want to keep Photoshop, I can always copy it to my PC and put it right back when I reinstall everything on the new drive.....right?
I think you can, I'm just not sure, smebody might want to clue me in on that?http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/winky.gif

Fukui

Nov 22, 2002, 05:59 PM

And even if I want to keep Photoshop, I can always copy it to my PC and put it right back when I reinstall everything on the new drive.....right?

Yes, you can, but HFS (Mac Fie System) uses extra data that older programs still use and cannot be represented on Fat32 or NTFS, therefore you need to take whatever programs you want to save and make a disc image out of it using a program called disk copy (comes with the OS X 10.2 in the Utilities Folder) just select "new image from folder" and image it to file. The Image file will be flat which means it only contains data but no "meta-data" that can be lost transfering it to a PC hard drive. Since Jaguar has built-in windows networking, you should just be able to connect to your Win-Box and copy the image file to it no problem.

Then you can install your new HD and install Jag and just double click the .DMG disk image file from your windows computer and copy the contents back to your new HD.

If you want to sqeeze some more speed out of X the try setting to 16-bit color, changing the "minimize effect" to 'scale' instead of genie, and when installing Jag only install the languages, extra fonts, printer drivers etc. you would need. You'll get better performance and 1-2GB extra free space. :cool:

Good Luck.

MacBandit

Nov 22, 2002, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by Fukui

Yes, you can, but HFS (Mac Fie System) uses extra data that older programs still use and cannot be represented on Fat32 or NTFS, therefore you need to take whatever programs you want to save and make a disc image out of it using a program called disk copy (comes with the OS X 10.2 in the Utilities Folder) just select "new image from folder" and image it to file. The Image file will be flat which means it only contains data but no "meta-data" that can be lost transfering it to a PC hard drive. Since Jaguar has built-in windows networking, you should just be able to connect to your Win-Box and copy the image file to it no problem.

Then you can install your new HD and install Jag and just double click the .DMG disk image file from your windows computer and copy the contents back to your new HD.

Actually if it already has OS9 installed it will probably already be using HFS+. I believe HFS+ is what you are referring to. HFS is the old filing system that Apple used up until OS9. Also Disk Copy is a standard program with every Mac OS since System 7 or 8 not just OSX.

vniow

Nov 22, 2002, 06:10 PM

Hey thanx, I just saved all of that to a text file.http://www.ranchoweb.com/thumbs/36754.21.that5C27scool.gif

Wish you could copy apps and still have them work on Windowz machines.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/rolleyes.gif

I also have a distro of Linux that I can install in about ten minutes, so it won't exactly take a lot out of my time, would it be easier to copy the files to that instead of going through all that 'meta-data' stuff?

chmorley

Nov 22, 2002, 06:58 PM

My wife runs Jaguar on her 366 MHz iBook w/320 MB RAM. It runs just fine for her. Sure, OS 9 runs a bit faster, but the added stability of Jag is worth it. Her HD is big enough for her needs, but I'm not sure it would meet yours. The HD upgrade sounds like a good idea.

Photoshop 5 is probably just worth trying and seeing how it runs. I used to run Photoshop 6 in classic mode on my TiBook 667. It was all right. My wife, however, found that running classic apps ate up a great deal of her available RAM. Either way, it's worth a shot. You certainly can upgrade to OS X and still keep your OS 9 stuff intact. Many here have reported that doing a clean install is best. That's probably the case, but simply upgrading works just fine.

Congratulations! It seems like you've been wanting a Mac for a while!

Chris

pianojoe

Nov 22, 2002, 07:22 PM

Jag on the iBook: The interface will not be very snappy, but it'll run OK.

I do admit that Photoshop has some slight (!) advantages over the Gimp. I'm quite experienced in handling both applications, and I must say, if you're cool with the Gimp, don't fork out for PS. If this is not your bread and butter software you'll be fine.

BTW, I wonder if all people who claim that PS "kicks the Gimp's ass in every respect" have a legitimate knowledge to make a statement like that. The Gimp is sometimes underestimated due to lack of knowledge. Try it, it's free!

And, someone mentioned that the vendor might have PS 5.0 on the hard drive, but no original CDs. Hmmmm, I wouldn't pay a penny for THAT.

Just my $0.02.

Fukui

Nov 22, 2002, 07:57 PM

I also have a distro of Linux that I can install in about ten minutes, so it won't exactly take a lot out of my time, would it be easier to copy the files to that instead of going through all that 'meta-data' stuff?

Well, you mean copy Photoshop to the linux install?

Hmm, I am not sure what the FS is on PPC linux. Can it run on HFS+? Definitely not on the PC version...

The only problem I see, is that you'll have to re-copy everything to your new HD from the old one anyway right? If you still want to use Photoshop in Classic, then you gotta preserve the original file system (it uses meta data instead of file extentions like .EXE so if you coped the files, they couldn't startup Photoshop etc. because it wouldn't know if it was an executable or not! OS X Cocoa Framework though eliminates this problem.), so you have to back up to a disk image, unless you know how to copy the files between the HD's directly.

P.S. When installing Jag, DO NOT use Unix FS as classic won't function and neither will carbon (apps ported from OS 9 like photoshop), so make sure to use HFS+.

P.P.S The only reason why I mention using Disk Copy for X instead of 9 is that in 9 it can't be copied to Fat32/windows FS and still be openable (there would still be data loss), but with X disk copy, it simply attaches a .DMG file extention, so it can be saved to other file formats like on windows.

MacBandit

Nov 23, 2002, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by Fukui

P.P.S The only reason why I mention using Disk Copy for X instead of 9 is that in 9 it can't be copied to Fat32/windows FS and still be openable (there would still be data loss), but with X disk copy, it simply attaches a .DMG file extention, so it can be saved to other file formats like on windows.

That is good to know for everyone. Thanks.