PS3 Spanks the Xbox 360!

[d_saum]

Just found this and thought it was interesting. M$ has been saying that thier 360 is more powerful than the ps3 for whatever "specific" reasons. But this just goes to show that the ps3 is gonna beat the pants off the 360.
(here you can read about PhysX (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/09/01/news_6132402.html) )

360 Buckling Under PhysX
PS3 can handle it; 360 features, however, are limited.
by Patrick Klepek, 09/01/2005
50 of 58 users recommend this story.
As Valve demonstrated with Half-Life 2, true-to-life physics can have a lasting impact on gameplay, and next-generation should prove that notion even more so. Ageia hopes to cash in on this trend with their PhysX line of physic-dedicated accelerator cards, of which BFG Technologies was recently announced as second add-on card partner.
What's interesting, however, is how this plays out between PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360. At the European Game Developers Conference, Extreme Tech noted that the company confirmed plans to offer software-based rendering for single and dual-core PCs, PCs decked out with PhysX chips and software versions for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360.

That makes sense to offer development solutions on all platforms, but what's interesting is Ageia's report that Xbox 360 can't handle all of the PhysX's features because of architecture limitations. PhysX offers technologies ranging from physical object interactions to fluid-based particle effects like water and smoke and reportedly only PS3 and PCs will be able to handle all the goods.

What will Xbox 360 miss out on? PhysX's fluid-based technology. How exactly that impacts Xbox 360's future is for all intents and purposes minimal, but it's strange to see a split between the two machines after such rabid debate over which one had the edge.

[TheMonarch]

Bring on the flames!!!


Nah, it seems we're more 'N fans here :)

[d_saum]

Let me just say this... I currently own all 3 systems and I will be buying the ps3, 360, and the Revolution. Im just glad to see the 360 getting put in its place! ;) M$ talks alot of smack but I love my xbox and I cant wait for the 360. Clearly, the Xbox beat the pants of the PS2 (not in sales, just in performance). This time around, it'll be nice for the PS3 to lead in performance. Hopefully the revolution will be as innovative as they say, and the 360 will have some games that wont be available anywhere else (ie: Halo)

[Verto]

I think this is all useless debate, and will remain so until both systems are out.

Oh, and of course we shan't exclude Nintendo, which has a market share....somewhere.

[Eric5h5]

What's interesting, however, is how this plays out between PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360. At the European Game Developers Conference, Extreme Tech noted that the company confirmed plans to offer software-based rendering for single and dual-core PCs, PCs decked out with PhysX chips and software versions for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360.

And Macs, which is the cool thing. You can already play around with Ageia's Novodex physics engine by downloading the Unity game engine, which is a free trial for 15 days. It's great. Ageia's PhysX cards will be PCI, at least initially, which means you can just plug 'em into Power Macs (and hope for some Mac support, but that seems reasonably likely given that Ageia seems reasonably Mac-friendly).

Ideally, it would be nice if everyone dumped Havok and started using Novodex instead, thus ending the Havok middleware problem that Macs suffer from currently....

--Eric

[madmaxmedia]

Well, it's not surprising that the later system is the more powerful (if this indeed true.)

I'm expecting the PS3 to hold at least a slight edge, and perhaps more if it is released at $400 (single model only.)

[Xeem]

It won't matter which is more powerful. The PS2 was hardly impressive even upon its debut, but look at its market share.

[madmaxmedia]

It won't matter which is more powerful. The PS2 was hardly impressive even upon its debut, but look at its market share.

It's not the all-determining factor, but it matters. The XBox got the market share it did partly because it had more powerful hardware.

For the next generation, it may be flipped (although the difference shouldn't be as great.) The XBox will either take advantage of its early start (like the PS2), or die on the vine like the Dreamcast (where everyone was waiting for the PS2.)

As the XBox launch approaches, expect massive hype from Sony to try to convince people to wait for the PS3. They will promise better graphics and larger developer support (like they did with the PS2 against the Dreamcast.)

It will be interesting to see how things play out.

[applemax]

OK. Here's a small table for all you PS3 fanboys:

XBOX360 | PS3
Best online experience yes | no
Easy, durable, brilliant controllers yes | no
Genetically Modified bananas optional | yep!
memory 512mb shared | 256mb
video ram 10mb | none
every game has online features yes | no
expensive? fairly | tycoons only
faceplates and customization yes | no
J Allard yes | no, just that weird Ken!
hard drive yes | yes, but smaller
HD streaming yes | no
music visualizer yes | no
PGR3 and PDZ!!! yes | no
mario crap no | no | *yes!
alfred molina no | yes
best looking sexy inhail | george foreman grill


And the winner is : XBOX 360!!!

btw, ps3 is the worst console ever since dreamcast. GD-ROM ! ha![CENTER]

[Dagless]

wow. "PS3 Spanks the Xbox 360"... "Is Nintendo Retarded?"... is this a mac forum or a little kiddy playground.

who really cares if one is more powerful than another? i mean really cares. unless you're one of those strange "HAS 2 BE TEH BEST!1" people.

[jdechko]

who really cares if one is more powerful than another? i mean really cares. unless you're one of those strange "HAS 2 BE TEH BEST!1" people.

Completely agree with you. Everybody has his/her own preference, and they'll buy according to their own taste/budget. I will wait for the Revolution and not regret it one bit, but it would be nice not to be flamed by the Sony/MS guys. If you truly cant decide and are able to afford it, buy 2 or 3 systems. I know a lot of people that will do exactly that

[Photorun]

OK. Here's a small table for all you PS3 fanboys:

XBOX360 | PS3
Best online experience yes | no
Easy, durable, brilliant controllers yes | no
Genetically Modified bananas optional | yep!
memory 512mb shared | 256mb
video ram 10mb | none
every game has online features yes | no
expensive? fairly | tycoons only
faceplates and customization yes | no
J Allard yes | no, just that weird Ken!
hard drive yes | yes, but smaller
HD streaming yes | no
music visualizer yes | no
PGR3 and PDZ!!! yes | no
mario crap no | no | *yes!
alfred molina no | yes
best looking sexy inhail | george foreman grill


And the winner is : XBOX 360!!!

btw, ps3 is the worst console ever since dreamcast. GD-ROM ! ha![CENTER]

Wow, with as much spin you put into your post you should go into politics? The last one had me LMAO, 360 is sexy? Better get to an optometrist, then again, there's no accounting for taste.

[kalisphoenix]

Jesus's second coming (or first) is probably going to beat the PS3, so --

wait.

I don't care.

Hmm... I feel so much better... like I'm going to get laid in the forseeable future or something...

[iJon]

True, but my brother's girlfriend's father's sister's uncle in law works on the 360 division unit at Microsoft and he told me Crash Bandicoot 6 runs better and looks better with mega polygons galore.

It's getting to the point where mods should have to review a new thread on consoles before being allowed to post.

jon

[saunders45]

My "friend" is working at um like, EA on a new LOTR game and like, uh, he ssays that the PS3 is more powerful for physics cuz on the PS3 you can actually control the smoke rings that gandalf makes and um, yeah it kicks the 360's arse......


yeah, that's pretty much how it all is starting to sound now..... :rolleyes:

[mkaake]

True, but my brother's girlfriend's father's sister's uncle in law works on the 360 division unit at Microsoft and he told me Crash Bandicoot 6 runs better and looks better with mega polygons galore.

It's getting to the point where mods should have to review a new thread on consoles before being allowed to post.

jon


Yeah, but my brother's wife's sister's husband's nephew read an internal memo from his mom's boss's sister's work that said that the ps3 will be so powerful that the world will actually end when you turn it on.

Yeah, that's right - the world will end.

It's like a little kiddy pissing contest around here lately... I like that idea of mod approval on console posts... it's nuts. They're not even available yet, but people are still having digital pissing contests for numbers provided by marketing on systems that they've never touched or seen in person...

[wrxguy]

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT o0o0o0o0o0o00o0o0o0o

[mkaake]

OK. Here's a small table for all you PS3 fanboys:

XBOX360 | PS3
Best online experience yes | no
Easy, durable, brilliant controllers yes | no
Genetically Modified bananas optional | yep!
memory 512mb shared | 256mb
video ram 10mb | none
every game has online features yes | no
expensive? fairly | tycoons only
faceplates and customization yes | no
J Allard yes | no, just that weird Ken!
hard drive yes | yes, but smaller
HD streaming yes | no
music visualizer yes | no
PGR3 and PDZ!!! yes | no
mario crap no | no | *yes!
alfred molina no | yes
best looking sexy inhail | george foreman grill


And the winner is : XBOX 360!!!

btw, ps3 is the worst console ever since dreamcast. GD-ROM ! ha![CENTER]

I seriously hope you wrote that as a joke, in some form of sarcasm. Please tell us you did. Please.

[saunders45]

[QUOTE=mkaake]Yeah, but my brother's wife's sister's husband's nephew read an internal memo from his mom's boss's sister's work that said that the ps3 will be so powerful that the world will actually end when you turn it on.
QUOTE]


Oh yeah,..... well my nanny sisters sons cousins dogwalker's butchers nephew told me that his Xbox360 developer kit became self aware on August 6 at approxomately 3:41 AM. Yeah, it wrote a virus which will start infecting the internet and begin taking over all computer controlled devices. Then, it will launch nukes at Russia, which will in turn launch nukes at us......

Then it started synthesizing voices saying:

Judgement day has arrived!!!!!!!!!!

THE END IS NEAR!THE END IS NEAR!THE END IS NEAR!THE END IS NEAR!THE END IS NEAR!THE END IS NEAR!THE END IS NEAR!THE END IS NEAR!THE END IS NEAR!THE END IS NEAR!THE END IS NEAR!THE END IS NEAR!THE END IS NEAR!THE END IS NEAR!THE END IS NEAR!THE END IS NEAR!

[kuyu]

I got this info from an unofficial xbox site, so take it as such...

PS3: The cell chip is an odd design. The one PPC chip and 7 SPE's are not eight processors. Only the PPC core can access the 256 MB of GDDR3 system memory. The total bandwidth here is 22.4 GB/s. Thus, each SPE must go through the PPC core to access memory. That leaves a maximum of 3.2 GB/s per SPE (assuming the PPC uses none of the bandwidth). A more realistic scenario would give ~2.8 GB/s of bandwidth to each SPE and the PPC core. This is enough for physics, etc.

The RSX chip by Nvidia is also very powerful. However, there's a severe bottleneck in the bandwidth. The RSX will have to do Z testing, HDR, alpha blended color rendering, plus anti-aliasing with this bandwidth. Sorry, but it's not enough. The E3 demos were using a dual-cell set up (with extra memory) for the renders. They were only able to do it 1/12 of the speed. Basically the RSX is overkill, as the card will never reach it's peak potential. It's like having a V12 fed by a Civic fuel line.

360: The memory bandwidth to the 3-core PPC chip is, like Sony's, 22.4 GB/s. Again, this is more than enough. You've got over 7 GB/s per core if all three are being used.

The ATI chip, has the main system bandwidth if it needs it (just like the PS3), but the 10 MB embedded DRAM gives the gfx chip 256 GB/s of bandwidth! This allows the 360 to do Z testing, HDR, alpha blended color rendering, plus 4x MSanti-aliasing, all without touching the main memory bandwidth. Throw in programmable pipelines, and you've got yourself a V12 engine with a fuel line you could drive through. The 360's gfx bandwidth is way more than PS3's, and the total system bandwidth is about 5 times as much.


Sony still has some time to fix this, so I suspect they will. The quick explanation is

PS3: 1 PPC with 7 "daughter" chips, a suped-up 7800, and ~48 GB/s of system bandwidth for all of it. You need 52.8 GB/s of graphics bandwidth just to do color rendering and z testing in the frame buffer. What about HDR and AA? And it does this twice, simultaneously, at 1080p? Hmmm... Something seems off here. The 7800+ could certainly do this, just not in a PS3.

360: 3-core PPC, an R500, and 278 GB/s of system bandwidth for all of it.

The PS3, in current form, will never reach its potential. It's crippled from the start.

[psycho bob]

There are some idiots on here, who cares which is more powerful it is about games. You can buy a car for less than £30,000 which is more powerful then ones costing twice that amount doesn't mean it is any good. It is all about the quality of the product and what you can do with it.

I bought an orignal Playstation for driving games, Gran Turismo was the best when it was released so I never looked elsewhere later on. I bought a Playstation 2 again for the GT series, other consoles have driving games but PGR2 etc just don't cut for serious driving. I will buy a PS3 for GT5 simple as that.

Don't care about the machines speed, its price, its looks I just want the best driving experience I can possibly get from a game. Others who like RPG, platform, shoot em'ups will choose accordingly. At the end of the day the PS2 sells becuase of the huge range of games available and because of Sony's image. Only the hard core geeks know about the actual performance figures most buy because they like the games. Nintendo will sell becuase they slash prices; when it was originally launched in the UK it was a disaster soon as they stated they were going to stop it and reduced it to £99 it sells so they continue at that price point. The real battle will be between M$ and Sony. M$ will sell to the techies and those that like the hard core gaming experience and Sony will sell to those more casual gamers and the ones, like me, or are after specific titles and genres.

All this talk is like measuring your manhood in public, pointless and at the end of the day you just get laughed at :D

[kuyu]

There are some idiots on here, who cares which is more powerful it is about games. You can buy a car for less than £30,000 which is more powerful then ones costing twice that amount doesn't mean it is any good. It is all about the quality of the product and what you can do with it.

All this talk is like measuring your manhood in public, pointless and at the end of the day you just get laughed at :D

Nice post... :eek: What were the forum rules again??? Flaming people for posting their insights and knowledge regarding a subject is silly. Not everyone here agrees on everything, but we usually have the courtesy and tact to respectfully disagree.

Anyway, I bought a second PS2 (my first broke) and the driving force pro with 900 degree force feedback for GT4. I love those games too.

I agree, it's all about the games and the abilties of the system. I've already stated multiple times here that I intend to buy all three systems. My post above was pulled from pro-360 sites, and I stated that explicitly at the top. I can't imagine what "hardcore geeks" are doing on an Apple computer internet message board on a Friday morning. :rolleyes:

[Lord Blackadder]

LOL, I think the hype has fried some brains around here.

Every time new consoles are planned everyone debates the hardware potential of the competing units - but it is pretty irrelevent, at least for a while.

The first games to be released for each system will not take full advantage of the hardware; many of the games currently being released on Xbox and PS2 don't even use the console hardware to the fullest.

All three new consoles have an equal potential to be the best right now. The deciding factor will be the game library. Which one has the most popular games? Which one will draw the most developers? All three have good enough hardware to be the best IMHO. The hardware isn't as critical as the software.

So put your crack pipes down and count to ten before posting something like "XbOx/Ps3/R3VoLuTiOn PwNs JoO n00b LOL!!!1111".


:rolleyes:

[psycho bob]

Nice post... :eek: What were the forum rules again??? Flaming people for posting their insights and knowledge regarding a subject is silly. Not everyone here agrees on everything, but we usually have the courtesy and tact to respectfully disagree.

Anyway, I bought a second PS2 (my first broke) and the driving force pro with 900 degree force feedback for GT4. I love those games too.

I agree, it's all about the games and the abilties of the system. I've already stated multiple times here that I intend to buy all three systems. My post above was pulled from pro-360 sites, and I stated that explicitly at the top. I can't imagine what "hardcore geeks" are doing on an Apple computer internet message board on a Friday morning. :rolleyes:

I'm an idiot myself I freely admit it but we have about 100 threads like this and they are all missing the point. It has nothing to do with opinions it is just fan boys of one console or another taking a swipe at others. As for the no "hardcore geeks" on an Apple site at Friday AM remember this place is global (it is late afternoon here in England) and this is a section supposedly dedicated to mac software > games none of which have anything to do with consoles. So it must take pretty hard core game fans to post none stop about consoles that no one has had chance to play on a mac software forum. As for flaming others for posting knowledge and insight that wasn't my intention at all but if you read through this topic for every useful post there will be at least one other that serves to do nothing but antogonise or bring this whole thread down to yet another "my console is better than yours" slanging match.

My post was not aimed at anyone in particular and if my use of the word idiot offended I do appologise but anyone who sticks there head out into the actual mac sections of the forum will see far worse. I myself have been on the receiving end directly for no real reason by certain gamers around here so it isn't a one way thing.

As long as the price is right the PS3 will be the best selling console on the market just as both previous generations have been. They don't have to be technically the best, they don't have to play DVD's well, nor have the best online experience, nor even the best graphics they just have to have the best selection of games and be easy to use.

[kuyu]

As long as the price is right the PS3 will be the best selling console on the market just as both previous generations have been. They don't have to be technically the best, they don't have to play DVD's well, nor have the best online experience, nor even the best graphics they just have to have the best selection of games and be easy to use.

I agree. The system with the best games/ease of use will win. If the PS3 is reasonably priced ($400) then they'll sell like gangbusters.

As far as the console discussion, the subtitle to the "Games" forum is "mac and console games", so these discussions certainly fall within the scope of the forum.

[psycho bob]

I agree. The system with the best games/ease of use will win. If the PS3 is reasonably priced ($400) then they'll sell like gangbusters.

As far as the console discussion, the subtitle to the "Games" forum is "mac and console games", so these discussions certainly fall within the scope of the forum.

I apologise for that, I've never read the subtitle :(

I always go by what it says at the top of the thread *memo to self read more!*

[kuyu]

I apologise for that, I've never read the subtitle :(

I always go by what it says at the top of the thread *memo to self read more!*

lol. I'm the same way. Attention to detail was never my strong point. ;)

[runninmac]

I will buy a PS3 for GT5 simple as that.


I second that! It may be a while before I can afford it (ive got a long list of things i must get before that). I really hope the PS3 doesnt have the stupid preorders that cost $700. thats just crazy :eek:

[Lord Blackadder]

As far as the price goes, gaming is a much bigger industry than it once was and growing fast. Many kids that grew up playing games are now in their 20s, 30s and 40s, have disposable income, and still want to play console (or PC) games.

As long as many of the latest and greatest games keep coming out on consoles people will buy them - even if the console costs as much as a cheaper PC. The original Ataris and Nintendos did not push contemporary hardware technology the way the current consoles do - there are much bigger market forces at work today driving the gaming industry.

[Dagless]

the GBA spanks everything.

[d_saum]

It's like a little kiddy pissing contest around here lately... I like that idea of mod approval on console posts... it's nuts. They're not even available yet, but people are still having digital pissing contests for numbers provided by marketing on systems that they've never touched or seen in person...

What communist country are you from? Why do we need a moderator approval for me to report that the ps3 can handle physics better than the 360? Hey, here's an idea, if you dont like the title of my thread or the subject, how about you stop reading?

[RandomDeadHead]

What communist country are you from? Why do we need a moderator approval for me to report that the ps3 can handle physics better than the 360? Hey, here's an idea, if you dont like the title of my thread or the subject, how about you stop reading?

Yea, you tell em'.


Like others have mentioned, I dont give a damn who physics are better.
Just give me GT5. With Morgans this time please.


Oh and BTW, I can piss furthur than any of you, I just don't have to go right now. And besides, I really don't give a damn.

[ph0rce]

i'll be getting a PS3 not a xbox 360. No way i will be gettinng a 360. I say bring on a PS3 + Mac OS X Media Player :D that would be cool :D

[iJed]

OK. Here's a small table for all you PS3 fanboys:

Now for the factual version of this table:


XBOX360 | PS3
Best online experience unlikely | unlikely
Easy, durable, brilliant controllers poor | good
memory 512mb shared | 256M super fast XDR
video ram 10mb | 256M
every game has online features no | no
expensive? fairly | tycoons only
faceplates and customization yes | no
hard drive not in base model | optional but much much larger
HD streaming yes (windows media) | yes (higher quality H.264)
music visualizer yes | unknown
PGR3 and PDZ!!! stupid comparison
bluetooth no | yes
WiFi no | yes
Gigabit ethernet no | yes
Blu-Ray no | yes
USB2 ports 3 | 6
HD outputs 1 | 2
Backward compatible no* | fully
Wireless controller support 4 | 7


And the winner is : PS3

* Microsoft will port some of the more popular earlier titles. Not really backward compatible at all then.

[Dagless]

...
And the winner is : PS3

* Microsoft will port some of the more popular earlier titles. Not really backward compatible at all then.

yes. because a yes/no table decides which is the better of consoles which haven't been released yet :D w00t! go PS3oxxor!

[mkaake]

What communist country are you from? Why do we need a moderator approval for me to report that the ps3 can handle physics better than the 360? Hey, here's an idea, if you dont like the title of my thread or the subject, how about you stop reading?

lol - you're taking things a wee bit too seriously, methinks. and i was poking fun at people who were acting like kiddies. of course, you're starting to as well, so yeah, I guess I was poking fun at you too...

oh, and we'll say china, just for fun. mmmm... communism...

it works great on paper anyway...

[hvfsl]

Just going to point out a few things:

The PS3 is more powerful overall (because of the Cell), but the X360 has the most advanced/fastest graphics chip.

To play online/download extra content with the X360 costs money. It is free with the PS3 and Revolution (except MMORPG games of course). Plus Sony and Nintendo are both going to offer an Xbox Live type service with their consoles. There are rumors that the interface is being designed by Apple because Apple is working on something to do with the PS3.

Also M$ have put DRM in the X360 so people can't make addons for it without paying M$ royalty fees, this will lead to higher accessary costs.

Plus the PS3 has a BlueRay drive so you can watch HD movies on it.


But having said that I am going to get the X360 in November, but that's mainly because of Perfect Dark Zero (the first one of the N64 is one of my favourite games).

[kuyu]

Just going to point out a few things:
****
But having said that I am going to get the X360 in November, but that's mainly because of Perfect Dark Zero (the first one of the N64 is one of my favourite games).

Good post. That's what I've gathered too. The Cell > 3-core PPC, hands down in raw power (if the code is right). Also, I've read (and posted earlier) that RSX=R500, but that Sony's implementation of the RSX is terrible. Thus the R500>RSX in real life performance.

This is only because the 360's R500 has superfast DRAM on die, and doesn't have to access main system memory for most stuff. And by superfast I mean 10x as fast as regular memory!

[GFLPraxis]

Good post. That's what I've gathered too. The Cell > 3-core PPC, hands down in raw power (if the code is right). Also, I've read (and posted earlier) that RSX=R500, but that Sony's implementation of the RSX is terrible. Thus the R500>RSX in real life performance.

This is only because the 360's R500 has superfast DRAM on die, and doesn't have to access main system memory for most stuff. And by superfast I mean 10x as fast as regular memory!

The RSX isn't terrible, it's just that the 360's is slightly smarter.

The RSX is a Geforce 7800 GTX with a few extra pipelines, higher clock speed and TurboCache.

The R500 adds some extra hardware like DRAM. Yes, 10x faster than regular memory but there's only 10 MB of it. It uses this for the AntiAliasing so that AA doesn't have a performance loss.

Each GPU has advantages and disadvantages, it looks like the RSX is better with high resolutions but the R500 is better with AA; since both have high resolution and AA in every game...tough to decide a winner.


BTW, apparently PS3 has keyboard and mouse support. This may end up being the first console I buy a FPS on.

[kuyu]

The RSX isn't terrible, it's just that the 360's is slightly smarter.

The RSX is a Geforce 7800 GTX with a few extra pipelines, higher clock speed and TurboCache.

The R500 adds some extra hardware like DRAM. Yes, 10x faster than regular memory but there's only 10 MB of it. It uses this for the AntiAliasing so that AA doesn't have a performance loss.

Each GPU has advantages and disadvantages, it looks like the RSX is better with high resolutions but the R500 is better with AA; since both have high resolution and AA in every game...tough to decide a winner.


BTW, apparently PS3 has keyboard and mouse support. This may end up being the first console I buy a FPS on.


Spot on, as usual. I know what you mean about keyboard and mouse. I grew up playing FPS's on the PC. Goldeneye/Halo were good enough that I learned how to use the analog sticks. You'd be surprised how quickly you'll pick up on a controller once you commit to a game that requires one.

A keyboard/mouse is still more precise, etc. But when everyone is using a controller, the net effect is a level playing field. The one advantage of a controller, IMHO, is the placement of "other" buttons. Switching weapons, throwing 'nades, controlling the character's feet, melee attacks, and zooming are easier with a controller. Aiming is not.

All this talk makes me want to play UT2004. Onslaught @ torlan makes my mouth water. I'm decent at the game, but the Manta turns me into a pwnStar. I once got 163 kills in one match (no spawn killing either, it's weak).

[Yvan256]

OK. Here's a small table for all you PS3 fanboys:

[snip]

btw, ps3 is the worst console ever since dreamcast. GD-ROM ! ha![CENTER]

- "Best online experience" that requires a monthly fee? Not what I define as "best" in my book.
- "Easy, durable, brilliant controllers" you can't judge the controllers of either because neither console is out yet.
- "faceplates and customization" yeah sure, because WinAmp is SO much better than iTunes...
- "best looking" yeah right, because something that looks like a bad attempt at copying Apple is better than something that looks like a high-end audio component.

I didn't even bother to comment on other "features", this post was just trolling for flames.

And anyway both Xbox360 and PS3 suck: they won't have Zelda or Metroid.
:cool:

[Yvan256]

[....] They're not even available yet, but people are still having digital pissing contests for numbers provided by marketing on systems that they've never touched or seen in person...

Funniest thing is, some people are having digital pissing contests based on numbers, on a forum mostly used by Apple users, which keep saying things like "software experience is better than computing power".

And THEN we get flamed for being Nintendo fans because of their software (not really caring about the specs of the system, at least not as much as Xbox/PS fanboys).

Weird forums users indeed. :rolleyes:

[applemax]

IGNORE THIS GUY. HE IS A TOTAL IDIOT. THIS IS ALL WRONG

[QUOTE=iJed]Now for the factual version of this table:

THIS IS THE TRUTH:::

XBOX360 | PS3
Best online experience yes. by far | unlikely
Easy, durable, brilliant controllers easy | crap (banana shaped)
memory 512mb shared | 256M
video ram 10mb | shared with RAM
every game has online features yes | no
expensive? fairly | tycoons only
faceplates and customization yes | no
hard drive not in base model | optional but much much larger
HD streaming yes (windows media) | possible
music visualizer yes | unknown
PGR3 and PDZ!!! stupid comparison
bluetooth no | yes
WiFi yes | no
Gigabit ethernet yes | yes
Blu-Ray no | yes
USB2 ports 4 | 6
HD outputs 1 | 2
Backward compatible yes (all titles by 2006) | fully
Wireless controller support 4 | 7*


And the winner is : XBOX 360

*7 screens one on tv? i'd love to see that. rubbish.

[GFLPraxis]

Now for the factual version of this table:


XBOX360 | PS3
Best online experience unlikely | unlikely[/RIGHT


Actually, I would call this unknown. The Revolution apparently has a very good online service as well and the PS3's hasn't been unveiled. And the XBox 360 is the only one charging to play.


Easy, durable, brilliant controllers [RIGHT]poor | good


From what I understand, the XBox 360 controller is a vast improvement over the XBox and rips off the design of the other good controllers out there like Wavebird. It's supposedly really good. Nobody has tried the PS3 controller and no one knows what the Revolution controller is. Call this unknown.


memory 512mb shared | 256M super fast XDR
video ram 10mb | 256M



Well, the way you put it is strange.


The PS3 has 256 MB of slightly faster RAM, and 256 MB of normal RAM. They are seperated physically (256 MB is on the GPU), however the system doesn't differentiate. Developers have access to all 512 for whatever task they want.


The PS3 has 256 MB of normal RAM and 256 MB of faster RAM. The XBox 360 has 256 MB of normal RAM and 10 MB of ultrafast RAM.


every game has online features no | no

Actually, Microsoft is requiring all games to be live-enabled. Not necessarily that they have online features but that the games are aware of live.


expensive? fairly | tycoons only
faceplates and customization yes | no
hard drive not in base model | optional but much much larger
HD streaming yes (windows media) | yes (higher quality H.264)
music visualizer yes | unknown
PGR3 and PDZ!!! stupid comparison
bluetooth no | yes
WiFi no | yes
Gigabit ethernet no | yes

It should be noted that the PS3 has THREE gigabit ethernet ports and serves as a switch.

Why, I don't know.


Blu-Ray no | yes
USB2 ports 3 | 6
HD outputs 1 | 2

It should be noted that the PS3's outputs are 1080p. The XBox 360 maxes out at 720p or 1080i.
Backward compatible no* | fully


* Microsoft will port some of the more popular earlier titles. Not really backward compatible at all then.

Not quite. What's happening is that patches for the more popular titles will be preloaded on the hard drive. So you get limited backwards compatability ONLY if you buy the hard drive. The support will be very low, only a few games, HOWEVER, Microsoft will make more patches available online. So to get partial backwards compatability you need the hard drive AND an internet connection (physical wire; WiFi is a $100 addon). Meanwhile, PS3 is compatible with everything the moment you buy it.

[GFLPraxis]

IGNORE THIS GUY. HE IS A TOTAL IDIOT. THIS IS ALL WRONG

[QUOTE=iJed]Now for the factual version of this table:

THIS IS THE TRUTH:::


Woah woah woah, you have just as many mistakes as he has.


XBOX360 | PS3
Best online experience yes. by far | unlikely


PS3 and Revolution online services haven't been unveiled. Microsoft is the only one charging unless Sony pulls a surprise. Call it unknown.


Easy, durable, brilliant controllers easy | crap (banana shaped)

Nobody has used a PS3 controller. Unknown.


memory 512mb shared | 256M
video ram 10mb | shared with RAM


ABSOLUTELY WRONG. The PS3 has 512 MB of RAM total, and 256 MB of it is faster than the X360.

HD streaming yes (windows media) | possible

Possible? It's been announced! He was right.


WiFi yes | no

Er, what? The XBox 360's WiFi is a $99 addon and external. The XBox 360 does NOT have built in WiFi. The PS3 on the other hand, DOES.


Gigabit ethernet yes | yes

I don't believe the XBox 360's ethernet port is gigabit.



USB2 ports 4 | 6

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox360/factsheet.htm

Microsoft's site disagrees with you. There's only 3 USB ports.


Backward compatible yes (all titles by 2006) | fully

Only the titles Microsoft patches. Remember, the backwards compatability is done by the patching system. Games whose creators went out of business, like Acclaim, will likely never be supported, for example. Nor will little-known titles. Further, no hard drive, no backwards compatability. No Live, no backwards comaptability.


Wireless controller support 4 | 7*


*7 screens one on tv? i'd love to see that. rubbish.


Absolutely wrong there; it's 7 controllers on TWO TV's. Remember the dual HD outputs?

[applemax]

XBOX 360 has 4 usbs. read this

http://www.xbox360news.com/Blogs/News/hqs/blr_432.aspx

[GFLPraxis]

XBOX 360 has 4 usbs. read this

http://www.xbox360news.com/Blogs/News/hqs/blr_432.aspx

So let's see, do I believe the unofficial news site, or XBox.com...hmmm...


And besides, why does it matter? lol.

[Dagless]

:eek: oh noes! Microsoft is lying!

i think i know who to believe.

can people just pay attention and answer the question; do any of these leaked specs talk about Gameplay? or how good the games will be?

idiots take over the world :)
have your argument over numbers and yes's and no's. im off to play Kirby again.

[Dagless]

IGNORE THIS GUY. HE IS A TOTAL IDIOT. THIS IS ALL WRONG

[QUOTE=iJed]
Wireless controller support 4 | 7*


And the winner is : XBOX 360

*7 screens one on tv? i'd love to see that. rubbish.

wow. you really must have been playing some badly designed games. who says you need multi-screens for multiplayer games?? 2 of the greatest console multiplayer games ever (Bomberman and Smash Bros, i say) need no split screens.

[GonzoRob]

hey guys,
this may get a few peoples backs up, but from my experience an end-users ability to pirate games is often a major cause of massive sales. Yes, yes 'software piracy is sick and wrong, it killed my grandma yadda yadda'.. but i think you'll find that microsoft knows this. Why else do you think the mod chip makers (team executor amongst others) have already got their grubby hands on several development consoles - for game making? Nah ... go figure

If M$ make the xbox easy to chip, they will sell many more units.. you think they care much about game firms ? naha..

Sony seem keep on actually stopping piracy on the other hand...

just my 2c ... feel free to shoot me down ;)
Rob

PS: the idea of 'allowed piracy to increase market base ' can easily be applied to windows OS ..


PPS: didnt read all the way though the thread... lots of angst / flames .. so i dont know if this point hsa already been raised :)

[Dagless]

hey guys,
this may get a few peoples backs up, but from my experience an end-users ability to pirate games is often a major cause of massive sales. Yes, yes 'software piracy is sick and wrong, it killed my grandma yadda yadda'.. but i think you'll find that microsoft knows this. Why else do you think the mod chip makers (team executor amongst others) have already got their grubby hands on several development consoles - for game making? Nah ... go figure

If M$ make the xbox easy to chip, they will sell many more units.. you think they care much about game firms ? naha..

Sony seem keep on actually stopping piracy on the other hand...

just my 2c ... feel free to shoot me down ;)
Rob

PS: the idea of 'allowed piracy to increase market base ' can easily be applied to windows OS ..


PPS: didnt read all the way though the thread... lots of angst / flames .. so i dont know if this point hsa already been raised :)

thats true. if i couldn't mod my Xbox i wouldn't have one. the games suck to high heaven, but its a brilliant cheap media centre. well... Halo 1 and Panzer Dragoon are brilliant.

i could say that same about all my Xbox owning mates.

[iJed]

Actually, I would call this unknown. The Revolution apparently has a very good online service as well and the PS3's hasn't been unveiled. And the XBox 360 is the only one charging to play.

I don't really see the console manufacture being a major factor in making good online titles. Surely it should be up to the game developer to create online content for their games...


From what I understand, the XBox 360 controller is a vast improvement over the XBox and rips off the design of the other good controllers out there like Wavebird. It's supposedly really good. Nobody has tried the PS3 controller and no one knows what the Revolution controller is. Call this unknown.

We'll see. Controller design is more a matter of opinion than of fact.


Well, the way you put it is strange.

The PS3 has 256 MB of slightly faster RAM, and 256 MB of normal RAM. They are seperated physically (256 MB is on the GPU), however the system doesn't differentiate. Developers have access to all 512 for whatever task they want.

The PS3 has 256 MB of normal RAM and 256 MB of faster RAM. The XBox 360 has 256 MB of normal RAM and 10 MB of ultrafast RAM.


Well according to any of the articles I've read the PS3 has 256MB of 700MHz GDDR VRAM. The V in VRAM clearly states that this is video RAM. And surely putting this on the GPU makes it clearly designed as video memory anyway. As for the Xbox 360, the 10MB of "ultrafast RAM" is definitely dedicated graphics memory. It also has 512 megabytes of main memory, not 256.

You say the way I put this is strange. However you say "however the system doesn't differentiate." Well how do game developers allocate memory then? Do they just play pot luck when they call malloc() and expect guess which area of memory will be used. Of course not!

I'm not going to pretend that I have a great understanding of the PS3 architecture but I do have an extensive understanding of software development and I'm telling you that two separate memory banks would be very strange indeed.


Actually, Microsoft is requiring all games to be live-enabled. Not necessarily that they have online features but that the games are aware of live.


Can you explain what "live-enabled" means? Sounds like a marketing gimmick to me.



It should be noted that the PS3 has THREE gigabit ethernet ports and serves as a switch.

Why, I don't know.


Hasn't this feature since been dropped from the PS3?


It should be noted that the PS3's outputs are 1080p. The XBox 360 maxes out at 720p or 1080i.


Yes I should have noted this. Along with Blu-ray this will make the PS3 much more future proof than the far more conventional Xbox 360.


Not quite. What's happening is that patches for the more popular titles will be preloaded on the hard drive. So you get limited backwards compatability ONLY if you buy the hard drive. The support will be very low, only a few games, HOWEVER, Microsoft will make more patches available online. So to get partial backwards compatability you need the hard drive AND an internet connection (physical wire; WiFi is a $100 addon). Meanwhile, PS3 is compatible with everything the moment you buy it.

How not quite? I never said anything to the contrary of this. Microsoft will be porting some of their more popular older games to the 360. Note that this is the same kind of task as porting from Mac OS X PPC to Mac OS X x86. Although it may be somewhat more difficult since many games rely heavily on hand coded assembler.


EDIT: BTW, from the personal insult and flamebait, I've deemed applemax unworthy of any further replies.

[GFLPraxis]

Well according to any of the articles I've read the PS3 has 256MB of 700MHz GDDR VRAM. The V in VRAM clearly states that this is video RAM. And surely putting this on the GPU makes it clearly designed as video memory anyway. As for the Xbox 360, the 10MB of "ultrafast RAM" is definitely dedicated graphics memory. It also has 512 megabytes of main memory, not 256.

You say the way I put this is strange. However you say "however the system doesn't differentiate." Well how do game developers allocate memory then? Do they just play pot luck when they call malloc() and expect guess which area of memory will be used. Of course not!

I'm not going to pretend that I have a great understanding of the PS3 architecture but I do have an extensive understanding of software development and I'm telling you that two separate memory banks would be very strange indeed.

They call it VRAM because it's physically located by the GPU while the system RAM is located by the Cell processor, however Sony stated that the way they've designed it is that so that to the developer there is no difference and they can use the VRAM like system RAM if they wish. It's just as good as having 512 MB of RAM. The developers can allocate the memory wherever they wish.


At least thats what I understood from the interviews. *shrug*


Can you explain what "live-enabled" means? Sounds like a marketing gimmick to me.


Probably marketting gimmick. Microsoft just said "all games must be live-aware". Probably just means that they show up as a game on XBox Live and support downloadable content if anyone ever makes it. Oh and it also probably means that it shows up on your profile as one of the games you own.

I don't really know. Microsoft just said that they're requiring all games to be 'live-aware'.




Hasn't this feature since been dropped from the PS3?

No, it was tricky wording.

They dropped the ROUTER function. Before, the three gigabit ethernet ports allowed the PS3 to function as a three-port router. They removed the router functions so it works as a three-port switch now. Slightly less advanced (no firewall, smart filtering based on IP addresses, etc).




How not quite? I never said anything to the contrary of this. Microsoft will be porting some of their more popular older games to the 360. Note that this is the same kind of task as porting from Mac OS X PPC to Mac OS X x86. Although it may be somewhat more difficult since many games rely heavily on hand coded assembler.

Alright, the way I understood it was that you were saying that they'd be selling 'ports' (usually when someone makes a port, it's sold as a new game; like Age of Empires and Age of Empires Mac Edition), rather than patching the games you already own. I guess we meant the same thing with different wording.



EDIT: BTW, from the personal insult and flamebait, I've deemed applemax unworthy of any further replies.

Applemax seems like a bit of an XBox fanboy. Yeah, I know, people call me a Nintendo fanboy because I like Nintendo's games best and tend to push them on people. But at least I don't outright lie about the hardware. It's not like I run around saying that the PSP has less RAM than the DS or something ridiculous like that :rolleyes:

[GFLPraxis]

hey guys,
this may get a few peoples backs up, but from my experience an end-users ability to pirate games is often a major cause of massive sales. Yes, yes 'software piracy is sick and wrong, it killed my grandma yadda yadda'.. but i think you'll find that microsoft knows this. Why else do you think the mod chip makers (team executor amongst others) have already got their grubby hands on several development consoles - for game making? Nah ... go figure

If M$ make the xbox easy to chip, they will sell many more units.. you think they care much about game firms ? naha..

Sony seem keep on actually stopping piracy on the other hand...

just my 2c ... feel free to shoot me down ;)
Rob

PS: the idea of 'allowed piracy to increase market base ' can easily be applied to windows OS ..


PPS: didnt read all the way though the thread... lots of angst / flames .. so i dont know if this point hsa already been raised :)

Here's some data you'll find interesting.


This last generation, Microsoft lost $80 on every XBox sold. They wanted to make the money back on games and XBox Live subscriptions.


Unfortunately for them; being the easiest to chip made the system sell well and the games not sell as well because people pirated them. For every modchipped system, Microsoft lost $80, and DIDN'T make it back on game sales.


Add to the fact that only 5% of XBox users used Live, and Microsoft ended up with $5 billion in losses from the XBox division over five years. OUCH. I've tracked it, it's literally on average $250 million lost per quarter.


Sony seems to be making an interesting decision. They are apparently the first system to...SUPPORT homebrew. The PS3's hard drive boots Linux and apparently Sony is going to be ENCOURAGING people to make their own games that run on the PS3's Linux distro tailored to the PS3's hardware.

[Dagless]

Sony seems to be making an interesting decision. They are apparently the first system to...SUPPORT homebrew. The PS3's hard drive boots Linux and apparently Sony is going to be ENCOURAGING people to make their own games that run on the PS3's Linux distro tailored to the PS3's hardware.

...which could potentially make the PS3 into an amazing system. its the Commodore Amiga all over again. much faster than any PC at its time, played better looking games than the PC (i think PC was still using that Motherboard speaker thing and used 256 colours max) and openly supported homebrew. or public domain as i think it was called back then.
the Amiga was phenomenally successful in Europe. everybody owned one. people could write up documents, make music, make games and most importantly play games. with no need for a chip or anything. the public domain scene was massive. spawned loads of now-famous game studios and gave birth to legends like Worms (IIRC was made by a teenager in yorkshire using AMOS) and Lemmings n stuff.

I hope its a good homebrew platform. Sony's games really dont interest me. but the homebrew does.

[saunders45]

Looks like the argument is moot:

Wednesday evening, Ageia vice president of marketing Andy Keane acknowledged that including those comparisons in its presentation was a mistake, and that they were based on speculation from public specifications released on Microsoft. Although the company has tested its software on Xbox 360 development kits, Keane said, the tests were of extremely limited scope, and weren't designed to test the limitations of the hardware.

"The summary of the information below is that AGEIA would like to go on record that we do not have data to support performance comparisons for the PS3 or Xbox360 that would impact any of our physics features," Keane said in an email, which was also sent to other news organizations. "Specifically, statements that the Xbox360 cannot run fluid simulations are not correct. In addition, conclusions about relative performance should not have been stated or implied in our presentations."

[madmax_2069]

but the homebrew didnt take off on the psx or ps2 like it did with the dreamcast tho.and it does take a more powerful system to make a better game i hand it down to the ps3 but im still going to buy a 360.i still think the ps3 is going to be a kick ass system . i just lost intrest over sony when the ps2 came out cause all the hype it was a **** system but had good games cause it had a better 3rd party developer support.but all the bs hype killed the dreamcast witch i think could have been a better system if it only had better 3rd party developer support.

[Dagless]

...and it does take a more powerful system to make a better game...

wow. what a stupid thing to say :)

so thats why Pokemon and Tetris are among the 2 most sold games ever? and GTA too? w0wzers U r rite!1

seriously, how old are you?

[EvilDoc]

I Think he was meant to say that it DOESNT take a more powerful system to make better games... :rolleyes:

[Dagless]

I Think he was meant to say that it DOESNT take a more powerful system to make better games... :rolleyes:

ok :) smiles all round then

[d_saum]

Looks like the argument is moot:

Wednesday evening, Ageia vice president of marketing Andy Keane acknowledged that including those comparisons in its presentation was a mistake, and that they were based on speculation from public specifications released on Microsoft. Although the company has tested its software on Xbox 360 development kits, Keane said, the tests were of extremely limited scope, and weren't designed to test the limitations of the hardware.

"The summary of the information below is that AGEIA would like to go on record that we do not have data to support performance comparisons for the PS3 or Xbox360 that would impact any of our physics features," Keane said in an email, which was also sent to other news organizations. "Specifically, statements that the Xbox360 cannot run fluid simulations are not correct. In addition, conclusions about relative performance should not have been stated or implied in our presentations."

Wow, where'd ya get that info from? Do you have a link? Because, to be honest, I think thats awesome info! I know the title of this thread makes me look like a sony fanboy, but if you read my second post in here, I think I said I plan on getting all 3 systems. So....if this is true I AM STOKED!!! I have all 3 systems now and want the next 3 too and I'd like them all to be as powerful as possible!

[Poff]

Wow, where'd ya get that info from? Do you have a link? Because, to be honest, I think thats awesome info! I know the title of this thread makes me look like a sony fanboy, but if you read my second post in here, I think I said I plan on getting all 3 systems. So....if this is true I AM STOKED!!! I have all 3 systems now and want the next 3 too and I'd like them all to be as powerful as powerful!

Google: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=no-no&q=Specifically,+statements+that+the+Xbox360+cannot+run+fluid+simulations+are+not&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

[d_saum]

Google: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=no-no&q=Specifically,+statements+that+the+Xbox360+cannot+run+fluid+simulations+are+not&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

ok..lol..dont take this the wrong way because I DO believe it...but.... those are all forums with no links to a reputable website (at least that I could see). But like I said, I do believe it. I still believe the ps3 is going to have better physics effects though, but it'll be nice if the 360 can use all aspects of the physX processing.

[illegalprelude]

Viva la PS3! :cool:

[Dagless]

ok..lol..dont take this the wrong way because I DO believe it...but.... those are all forums with no links to a reputable website (at least that I could see). But like I said, I do believe it. I still believe the ps3 is going to have better physics effects though, but it'll be nice if the 360 can use all aspects of the physX processing.

im really sorry for asking this again but who really cares if the PS3 "is going to have better physics effects"?
so for some reason i end up with £5000 spare money in my bank and i get all 3. will i be brought to tears because Timesplitters 4 on the Xbox 360 has a '0.5% less realistic physics' engine?

besides aren't engines software specific? whats next? some more template engines so all the developer has to do is 'mod' the original engine to make an new game? so all the games will effectively be the same :cool:

[d_saum]

im really sorry for asking this again but who really cares if the PS3 "is going to have better physics effects"?
so for some reason i end up with £5000 spare money in my bank and i get all 3. will i be brought to tears because Timesplitters 4 on the Xbox 360 has a '0.5% less realistic physics' engine?

besides aren't engines software specific? whats next? some more template engines so all the developer has to do is 'mod' the original engine to make an new game? so all the games will effectively be the same :cool:

Well its honestly just a matter of opinion, but to me, I REALLY enjoy a game way more if it has better physics, graphics, and sound aside from the actual gameplay. So yeah, I care.

[robotrenegade]

I say a instore video of 360 video games coming....holy $hi!. I'm not a M$ supporter but thes games look nice.

[kuyu]

It's been confirmed that Saint's Row (GTA clone) for the 360 is using the Havok physics engine. I thought HL2 had great physics, so this game should be fairly cool from a technical standpoint.

[Dagless]

that Saints Row looks pretty good! strange, i dont like them kinda games, to say its next gen it just doesn't look that good at all... but part of me wants it.

to be honest though it wouldn't be hard to make a GTA clone and then to make it better than GTA. GTA plays almost like an amateur game, the graphics are lackluster and the engine horrifyingly buggy.

[jhu]

hey guys,
this may get a few peoples backs up, but from my experience an end-users ability to pirate games is often a major cause of massive sales. Yes, yes 'software piracy is sick and wrong, it killed my grandma yadda yadda'.. but i think you'll find that microsoft knows this. Why else do you think the mod chip makers (team executor amongst others) have already got their grubby hands on several development consoles - for game making? Nah ... go figure


yes, that's why the dreamcast is still around. oh wait...

[TheGimp]

yes, that's why the dreamcast is still around. oh wait...


The Project Gotham Racing 3 movies and the Gears of War stills (ign.c0m, gamespot.com) look like next generation graphics. Condemned looks quasi-next generation and everything else I've seen so far (i.e. Quake 4) looks merely early 2005 high-end pc or incremental improvements of Doom3 graphics.

If the Project Gotham movies (as good as any PS3 movie) are real-time rendered, then I'd say the xbox 360 is going to be one killer machine once the other developers figure out how to exploit its capabilities.

[saunders45]

I can't remember where I got the info from. It was a link from www.shacknews.com....