Focus on the Family

[diorio]

Who thinks that Focus on the Family is right to do what they do. They are against Harry Potter and things like that. Should they take a childrens book and analyze it to see if it has anti-christian views? Or should they focus on their own damn family as many bumper stickers would have them do?

[alex_ant]

Everybody knows Harry Potter is full of subliminal Satanist messages. Whatever helps rid the world of anti-Christian scum, I say!

[jrv3034]

Yeah, let's take the first book in quite a while that actually got kids excited about reading and try to ban it!:rolleyes:

It really is a shame that people and organizations seem to find the time to actually rally for dumb-a** causes, when there are children starving to death in the world. Sure, people in Moscow were taken hostage by Chechnian rebels and most of them died, but let's focus on IMPORTANT things, like making sure our kids don't REALLY believe that broomsticks can fly. :mad:

Sheesh...

[Kethoticus]

Who thinks that Focus on the Family is right to do what they do. They are against Harry Potter and things like that. Should they take a childrens book and analyze it to see if it has anti-christian views? Or should they focus on their own damn family as many bumper stickers would have them do?

It's called freedom of speech. Ignore them or speak up and state why you disagree with them. But suggesting that perhaps they should shut up is not what the US--or many other democratic states--are supposed to be about.

[ChicagoMac]

Analyzing children's books is a very small part of what they do. These people are doing their job, so to suggest they are ignoring their own families because they have a job is ridiculous. I deal with both healthy and hurting families every week. Focus on the Family is serving a genuine need. If God's plan for the family was followed, there would be far less problems in the world.

[big]

you are all so right, lets burn the books we do not agree with.

oh wait, that was done before.

anyways, good luck banning harry potter for my kids sake, I'd hate to see the supreme court slam you. what school systems are currently doing is atrocious, banning some of the books they dont like?

its an outrage.

[diorio]

Originally posted by ChicagoMac
Analyzing children's books is a very small part of what they do. These people are doing their job, so to suggest they are ignoring their own families because they have a job is ridiculous. I deal with both healthy and hurting families every week. Focus on the Family is serving a genuine need. If God's plan for the family was followed, there would be far less problems in the world.

But honestly, is focus on the family so all knowing that they have the right to interpret God and say the He has said that books such as Harry Potter must not be allowed to spread the evil word?

I honestly find that whole part of Focus on the Family quite a joke, only the hardcore christians will follow any suggestions proposed by them. It's also quite sad that they would try to ban the most popular children's book series because of subliminal satanic messages. You would think that excitement in children would be the more important agent for focus on the family.

Just my opinion, and it seems, the opinon of most users who have responded.

[wdlove]

Its great that Harry Potter has got children to read again. In the end children will learn the values of their family. My Pastor sees nothing wrong with Harry Potter, his own daughter has read all the books so far. Its a Christian church. My wife has read all the books so far also.

[Hemingray]

Originally posted by diorio
But honestly, is focus on the family so all knowing that they have the right to interpret God and say the He has said that books such as Harry Potter must not be allowed to spread the evil word?

I honestly find that whole part of Focus on the Family quite a joke, only the hardcore christians will follow any suggestions proposed by them. It's also quite sad that they would try to ban the most popular children's book series because of subliminal satanic messages. You would think that excitement in children would be the more important agent for focus on the family.

Just my opinion, and it seems, the opinon of most users who have responded.

Well not my opinion, m'laddio! Focus on the Family views the Harry Potter books as a wolf in sheep's clothing. The books are fun and adventurous, but at the same time they promote concepts like wizardry and witchcraft.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Harry Potter stories (although I've only seen the movies, not read the books), and I'm old enough to know better about that stuff, but since these stories are geared towards a younger audience, that is why Focus on the Family is concerned, because younger viewers are more easily impressioned.

And please don't make generalizations like "only hardcore Christians will follow any suggestions proposed by them", because that simply isn't true.

[vniow]

Originally posted by Hemingray
The books are fun and adventurous, but at the same time they promote concepts like wizardry and witchcraft.



What's so bad about that?

[Hemingray]

Originally posted by edvniow



What's so bad about that?

Some Christians (safe to say most) believe that witchcraft and sorcery is working with evil spirits and Satan, and consequently isn't something they would want to teach to their children.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Hemingray
Some Christians (safe to say most) believe that witchcraft and sorcery is working with evil spirits and Satan, and consequently isn't something they would want to teach to their children.

Analyzing mysticism in this way is completely subjective.

Harry Potter transforming a feather into a stick constitutes working with evil spirits, but Jesus transforming water into wine is a divine miracle. :rolleyes:

[jrv3034]

Originally posted by Hemingray


Some Christians (safe to say most) believe that witchcraft and sorcery is working with evil spirits and Satan, and consequently isn't something they would want to teach to their children.

Yeah, but the characters in the books also celebrate Christmas. What Focus on the Family should do is encourage the parents to talk to their kids about the books and explain that it is fantasy, not reality, and to try to see the conflicts of good versus evil in these books as examples for our daily struggles with crime, war and the like. Instead of banning the books, aznalyze them with an open mind, and let your kids read them (with adult supervision if need be) and it will only make the children more well rounded individuals.

The real question is how many of the people complaining about the books have actually read them?

Besides, I don't hear anybody complaining about the Wizard of Oz. Plenty of witchcraft there...:rolleyes:

[Hemingray]

Originally posted by jrv3034


Yeah, but the characters in the books also celebrate Christmas.

Are they celebrating the birth of Christ or the time of year where you get presents from Santa Claus? Lots of people celebrate holidays without acknowledging their origins.

Originally posted by jrv3034


Besides, I don't hear anybody complaining about the Wizard of Oz. Plenty of witchcraft there...:rolleyes:

True, but the Wicked Witch of the West gives you a clue right there as to which side she's on. The difference here is that Harry Potter is the good guy.

[wdlove]

We need to celebrate the family in American culture. Good values can be taught by all the items mentioned, its parents discussing it with their children.

[vniow]

Originally posted by Hemingray


Are they celebrating the birth of Christ or the time of year where you get presents from Santa Claus? Lots of people celebrate holidays without acknowledging their origins.

And a lot of people would be suprised to know that the Christmas tree comes from an ancient Druid tradition. A pagan ritual.

Originally posted by Hemingray
True, but the Wicked Witch of the West gives you a clue right there as to which side she's on. The difference here is that Harry Potter is the good guy.

I hope you didn't forget the Good Witch of the North either.
There's good people and bad people in just about every mythic children's tale like that, the only difference in Harry Potter is that they're wizards.
The Wizard of OZ is basically one big LSD trip. Are we to ban that because it promotes drugs?

[Durandal7]

How about we compile a list of all the things that can teach kids witchcraft:
Lord of the Rings
Harry Potter
The Sword in the Stone
Star Wars (the force can easily count as sorcery)
Dungeons & Dragons
All Fantasy Books

Let's just keep all these away from our kids. In fact, let's burn all of these! :rolleyes:

Lord of the Rings has been around for years and I don't see a huge group of Satanists running around communing with evil spirits. The legend of Merlin has been around even longer and kids haven't turned into devil-worshippers over that.

It's a really weak arguement against Harry Potter when you get right down to it. Harry Potter is about a boy becoming more then he was born to and fighting against evil. If you think that turns you into a devil-worshipper then just keep thinking that.

[Kethoticus]

Analyzing mysticism in this way is completely subjective.

True. But because it is subjective, everyone will have a different take on it and speak from that viewpoint. And that's where tolerance comes in.

Has Dr. Dobson actually requested the banning of the books? If so, that would be a violation of a number of laws in our country. If not, then he has every right to criticize the books as possibly being a negative influence on children. Just like you guys can criticize him for a lack or properly-ordered priorities. Freedom of speech, you know.


Harry Potter transforming a feather into a stick constitutes working with evil spirits, but Jesus transforming water into wine is a divine miracle.

Yes, it is. To a Christian, the spiritual world is divided into two sharply-delineated camps: God, and his former second-in-command, Lucifer. Both have supernatural abilities. If Harry Potter has not committed himself as a disciple of Jesus (which as far as I know he clearly hasn't), then he's getting his power from someone else. Despite the fact that he's honorable and trying to use his spiritual powers for good, he's using the wrong source.

People may ask what difference does it make, as long as he does positive things for people? Because satan never does anything in the bests interests of people. As long as his former God (he's since become his own god) considers humanity to be of great importance, he will do whatever it takes to distract people from the truth of the Gospel (that we need Jesus for our lives both after we die as well as here right now). I'm not sure why, but if I were to speculate, it would be because a) it's one way of hurting God (destroying the lives of creatures God got brutalized on a crucifix for), and b) it's out of ego: see how many people he can turn his way in spite of God's goodness to them. And if that means waving something seemingly good in the faces of people--like the power to heal someone's fatal illness, e.g.,--then that is what he will do.

(For those who do not understand the Christian thinking on this, God is not impressed by our good works. So healing someone supernaturally will not protect you from His judgement. We get into God's favor by allowing Him to wash our sinfulness away with the blood he lost approximately 2 millenia ago. That's all it takes--not our ego-boosting good deeds. But that's not to say that faith in Christ as Savior gives us the permission to sin, either. The Bible says that faith without works is dead. But without faith in Jesus as your spiritual savior, so are your good works.)

And there might be yet a third reason for satan desiring to deceive us. The writers of the 'Left Behind' series seem to suggest that at the time of Jesus' return, satan may feel that if he has enough humans on his side (there are now about 6 billion of us) that he can defeat God once and for all and take his place on the throne of God--what all of this garbage ultimately stems from. What he refuses to see is that finite beings can not destroy an infinite one.

Oh well... that's my shpeal (or however you spell it). I TRIED to clarify the Christian position on all of this. I hope I've done so accurately.

[big]

>God is not impressed by our good works. So healing someone supernaturally will not protect you from His judgement. We get into God's favor by allowing Him to wash our sinfulness away with the blood he lost approximately 2 millenia ago. That's all it takes--not our ego-boosting good deeds.

Umm, I think God expects more out of us than simply asking for our sins to be washed away, just not boasting our works.

also, I personally dont think the 2nd coming of Jesus will occur for some time. I think it will be when everyone has completely forgotten the faith. Those whom tought "The END is at Hand" or "Prepare for the rath of GOD" are nuts. The fact is, noone knows. No ONE! (but god)

but does Jesus, Mary or anyone else like that?

[wdlove]

It is by faith not just works.

No one know the day or the hour, not the son, but only the father. God himself will decide.

[Kethoticus]

Umm, I think God expects more out of us than simply asking for our sins to be washed away, just not boasting our works.

Reread my post. In one of my many sentences, I typed:

"The Bible says that faith without works is dead." But if you think that donating a million dollars to starving children will buy your way into Heaven, according to the Bible, you will be sorely disappointed. If that was all it took, He never would have allowed Himself to be nailed to a cross. It was this washing away of human sin that made Him allow Himself to be murdered.


also, I personally dont think the 2nd coming of Jesus will occur for some time. I think it will be when everyone has completely forgotten the faith. Those whom tought "The END is at Hand" or "Prepare for the rath of GOD" are nuts. The fact is, noone knows. No ONE! (but god)

Never suggested a timeframe, but I believe it MIGHT be the opposite of what you wrote, that it will be at a time when the largest number of people possible have come to Him--so as to assure the greatest number of people possible their salvation. Here are a few verses concerning that topic:

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Matthew 24:36

Jesus compares his second coming to the coming of a thief in the night. "But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." (emphasis mine) Matthew 24:43-44.

Also:

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

[Rower_CPU]

Let's take a giant step back here...

My comparison of Harry Potter and Jesus was intended to show how ridiculous the claims are that witchcraft/wizardry are something to be feared. The Bible tells of countless tales of miraculous feats performed by "God"/his disciples. The Harry Potter books tell of similar wondrous acts. Who are we to judge where the power of those acts comes from?

Playing the Devil's advocate here (pun very much intended), what's the difference between the Harry Potter books and the collective stories that make up the modern day Bible? Why do people follow the gospel of a collection of stories from 2000+ years ago?

[chmorley]

Kethoticus--I think you did a great job of explaining the position without being inflammatory or defensive. Just wanted to let you know I appreciated that. It actually helped me understand their position better. While I still disagree vehemently, I will always defend their right to express it.

Actually, as a Coloradan (and someone who works in Colorado Springs, where FoF is based), the only thing Focus on the Family has done that I found hateful and offensive was Amendment 2. For those unaware or who don't recall, it effectively permitted discrimination based on sexual orientation. While they promoted it as denying protected status to homosexuals, its effect was more dangerous. It would have permitted me as a landlord to deny housing to a tenant or potential tenant if I found s/he was homosexual, or as an employer to fire someone if I discovered s/he was gay. While the citizens of Colorado passed this in 1992, it was overturned by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional.

As a footnote, Colorado has become much more progressive since then. Amendment 2 wouldn't have a chance now--many polls after the 1992 election indicated that many voters had actually misunderstood what the initiative's effect would have been.

I fully support free speech. However, I find promoting intolerance and ignorance to be troubling. My opinion (based largely on what I was taught in Catholic school) is that Jesus probably wanted to people to be critical thinkers, reject the status quo when it was wrong (e.g., befriending a whore, as He did), and form their own opinions about things. If you believe that morality is not "made up," but is instead "truth," then it can be discovered if we simply trust people and provide them a loving environment in which they can discover truth.

It is my opinion that that was Jesus' intent.

Chris

[scem0]

wow, a lot of this belongs in my harry potter thread... But that
doesn't matter...

It makes me mad that one could think that the witchcraft and
wizardry in Harry Potter could promote children believing in
Satan. Is Satan, or God for that matter, mentioned once in any
of the movies? No.... If you think your kid is going to grab a
broom and jump of the roof with the broom between his legs
then don't let your kid see the movie, but don't try to keep other
parents from letting their children see Harry Potter. And kid
old enough to read Harry Potter is old enough to know not to
believe they can fly, cast speels, or do other forms of mysticism.

[Hemingray]

Originally posted by Durandal7
Lord of the Rings has been around for years and I don't see a huge group of Satanists running around communing with evil spirits. The legend of Merlin has been around even longer and kids haven't turned into devil-worshippers over that.

It's a really weak arguement against Harry Potter when you get right down to it. Harry Potter is about a boy becoming more then he was born to and fighting against evil. If you think that turns you into a devil-worshipper then just keep thinking that.

Just for the record, J.R.R. Tolkien was a Christian.

Harry Potter is relatively innocent, but you have to put it into perspective: these are young boys and girls that younger viewers can directly relate to. Most of the other books you mention don't have that tie, nor are they meant for an age group as young as Harry Potter. Naturally the younger the target the more careful a parent should be in what their children see. That's why Focus on the Family is concerned.

Obviously a little kid seeing Harry Potter doing magic won't turn them instantly into a devil-worshipper, but to say that it would have absolutely no consequence or determination on their future, no matter how minute, is impossible to tell. The more acceptable it appears to the child, the more willing they are to try it for themselves and the better the chance they will.

[Rower_CPU]

If I were a parent I would be more concerned with the violence on television than a work of fiction. Parents need to take responsibility for raising their children, and not blame everything and everyone under the sun if they do not actively participate in their child's education, both in the classroom and in the real world.

Trying to make a scapegoat out of any book/movie/tv show/song for the behaviors/beliefs their children adopt is a cop-out.

[scem0]

I totally agree. If a parent doesn't let their 6 year old watch
Harry Potter, but lets them see Terminator then they have got
issues... :D

[diorio]

Originally posted by Hemingray

Obviously a little kid seeing Harry Potter doing magic won't turn them instantly into a devil-worshipper, but to say that it would have absolutely no consequence or determination on their future, no matter how minute, is impossible to tell. The more acceptable it appears to the child, the more willing they are to try it for themselves and the better the chance they will.

That could be said about almost anything. Stuff like violence and cussing on tv are much worse than anything Harry Potter books/movies have in them.

wow, a lot of this belongs in my harry potter thread... But that doesn't matter

I started this thread before your thread, and it is pretty much about harry potter. Just protectin' my turf.:D



Actually, as a Coloradan (and someone who works in Colorado Springs, where FoF is based),

I live about 5 miles away from FoF, do you live in the springs too?



I totally agree. If a parent doesn't let their 6 year old watch Harry Potter but lets them watch Terminator they have issues...

Couldn't have said it better myself.;)

[wdlove]

The parent should view with the child, a time to share family values.

[Kethoticus]

...Gonna see if I can't explain the difference between witchcraft and Christian supernatural events. You don't seem to know how we can tell the differences between them, and I am going to try to explain them. Any Christians or witches here please feel free to chime in and correct anything I say that's wrong.

You wrote: My comparison of Harry Potter and Jesus was intended to show how ridiculous the claims are that witchcraft/wizardry are something to be feared.

They are to be "feared" because they come from a source whose ultimate goal is to destroy you. The Bible says that satan is like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. But he'll never appear like a lion, but more like something that you find appealing or attractive. Satan never knocks on your door to say, "Hi, I'm here to destroy you." How did he come to Eve? As a beautiful animal offering wisdom. And he did this by appealing to her vanity which in turn he did by undermining God's words to her.

According to Christian thought, witchcraft, both "white" (Wicca) and "black" (satanism) use the same source, Lucifer. Even if you choose not to believe that, they still break the first commandment, "You shall have no other god besides Me." Wiccans will disagree with me on some of this, not believing that their power comes from the devil. Ironically enough, if you ask a satanist or a Christian, however, they'll let you know the real source of the "white" witches' power. Probably the one thing satanists and Christians agree on.


The Bible tells of countless tales of miraculous feats performed by "God"/his disciples. The Harry Potter books tell of similar wondrous acts. Who are we to judge where the power of those acts comes from?

Ask a witch--either "black" or "white"--where they're getting their power from. Satanists will tell you flat out. Wiccans worship the earth and sun. The earth is a goddess (Gaia) and the sun is a god, forming a sort of mother/father combo. They believe that nature has forces that can provide them with supernatural power. Any wiccans please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm basing this all on a conversation I had with a Wiccan a few years back. Some of my information may be inaccurate or incomplete.

But the bottom line is, they worship the created things--satan was created by God way back when, and the earth and sun were likewise created by God. All witches worship the crea-ted and not the Crea-tor--their first sin according to Judeo-Christian thought and belief. And as a Christian, I believe this is dangerous because these people believe that spiritual salvation comes from the sources of their belief and power. They ignore Christ's death on the cross, the shedding of His blood for their sin--a fatal spiritual mistake.


Playing the Devil's advocate here (pun very much intended), what's the difference between the Harry Potter books and the collective stories that make up the modern day Bible? Why do people follow the gospel of a collection of stories from 2000+ years ago?

Umm... that's a pretty loaded question. I'll see how succinctly I can answer this. The Bible tells of us God's plan for humanity, what our destiny is, etc, etc. FAR more important than escapist novels. Some have described the Bible as God's love letter to the human race. In fact, if you want to get an idea of the kind of relationship God wants with mankind, read the Song of Songs, sometimes called The Song of Solomon. It's a romantic, almost erotic book of the Old Testament. But it presents an analogy of the kind of intimacy God wants with humans, Solomon representing God, and his beautiful wife representing those who commit their ways to Him.

The Harry Potter novels are fiction/fantasy. The Bible, at least according to Christians, is both God's word to us as well as an accurate record of ancient history.


Does this help at all?


And Chmorley, thanks for your comments. I think I understand what everyone's saying here about the FotF's priorities. Don't know if I agree or not, but this being a relatively flame-free thread, I think I actually understand where some of you are coming from.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Kethoticus

[snip]
The Harry Potter novels are fiction/fantasy. The Bible, at least according to Christians, is both God's word to us as well as an accurate record of ancient history.
[snip]

My point exactly. 2000 years from now, Christianity may be forgotten and Potterism may be the most prevalent religion practiced by humans (if we're even around).

A collection of stories, very much written by man, in my opinion, grew over time to be legend and then history and then fact to the people who choose to believe them. Just because there are historical tie-ins doesn't make it any less fiction than a novel set in World War II about fictional characters.

The stories of Jesus, his feats, his death and resurrection are wonderful tales...just as entertaining as Harry Potter. ;)

[wdlove]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


My point exactly. 2000 years from now, Christianity may be forgotten and Potterism may be the most prevalent religion practiced by humans (if we're even around).

A collection of stories, very much written by man, in my opinion, grew over time to be legend and then history and then fact to the people who choose to believe them. Just because there are historical tie-ins doesn't make it any less fiction than a novel set in World War II about fictional characters.

The stories of Jesus, his feats, his death and resurrection are wonderful tales...just as entertaining as Harry Potter. ;)

You are totally wrong, Jesus is not a story. Jesus is a historical fact. Jesus will be here as long as this current Earth is evolving. Harry Potter is the one that will be gone! The Bible has been check by Historians & Scholars, discrepancies orginally found have since been documented as facts!

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by wdlove
You are totally wrong, Jesus is not a story. Jesus is a historical fact. Jesus will be here as long as this current Earth is evolving. Harry Potter is the one that will be gone! The Bible has been check by Historians & Scholars, discrepancies orginally found have since been documented as facts!

I'd be interested in seeing some links to back up those statements.

[vniow]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


I'd be interested in seeing some links to back up those statements.


Jesus was an actual person, as were his diciples and many oher people mentioned in the Bible.

Now as for the whole 'son of God' part, it all depends on who you ask.



Edit: but chances are all those stories you read about him are completely different then what actually happened since much of it was word-of-mouth in the beginning and even when it was iin print, some cultures retold it how they saw it, not how it was actually written since they didn't have copy machines.
Then there's also the politically correct telling of it (King James) where they replace risque words like crotch with less offensive, like 'rib' (more on that if you want.)

[Rower_CPU]

Exactly, edvniow.

Proof of a man named Jesus who existed 2000 years ago is one thing, proof of Jesus being the "Son of God" is quite another.

To me, the Bible is a collection of stories, some based on historical events, used as a moral teaching tool by religious leaders in the past.

What stock you place in the book is up to you.

[e-coli]

Originally posted by ChicagoMac
If God's plan for the family was followed, there would be far less problems in the world.

This is a joke, right?

Maybe you missed the past several hundred thousand years of human history in which hundreds of millions of people have been killed in religious conflicts.

What we need is tolerance, not a bunch of proscribed moral laws that justify judgementalism.

Anyway, if you don't want you kids to see Harry Potter, don't take them to see it. It's funny how you never see liberal people yelling and screaming about what other people should or should not be doing.

[Nipsy]

Anyone who feels the need to force their values upon others, instead of present them for consideration, is part of the problem.

The sharing of ideas, values, religions, beliefs, & thoughts is important. Almost as important a havng the right to CHOOSE for yourself.

In human history, religion rivals disease as a cause of unnatural death, with everyone guilty (save for the Buddhists perhaps).

Spanish Inquisitions, Salem Witch Trials, the Holocaust...all glaring incidents of death by religion.

Nowadays, Catholics kill abortionists, Cultists kill themselves, Muslims kill Jews, Jews kill Muslims...all because of religion.

So, yes, it is wrong to unduly impose your beleifs on others. You have every right to beleive what you CHOOSE.

[vniow]

Originally posted by Kethoticus


They are to be "feared" because they come from a source whose ultimate goal is to destroy you.

That depends on who you ask. Many Christians I think would agree with you but I doubt that Wiccans feel the same way.
And who or what's to say that you're right and they're wrong?

Originally posted by Kethoticus
The Bible says that satan is like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. But he'll never appear like a lion, but more like something that you find appealing or attractive. Satan never knocks on your door to say, "Hi, I'm here to destroy you." How did he come to Eve? As a beautiful animal offering wisdom. And he did this by appealing to her vanity which in turn he did by undermining God's words to her.

Ahh, the classic art of seduction.
Luv it.
It's actually very feminine one of the reasons why temptation and seduction are feared by Judism (sp?), Islam and Cristianity, more on that if you really want to know.
It would lead this discussion waaaaay off topic.

Originally posted by Kethoticus According to Christian thought, witchcraft, both "white" (Wicca) and "black" (satanism) use the same source, Lucifer. Even if you choose not to believe that, they still break the first commandment, "You shall have no other god besides Me."

So they're breaking one of the Commandments.
No offense but, so what?
What's so bad about believing in more than one god, higher being, spirtual power or whatever.
I'm a pagan, does that mean I'm going to hell just because I don't believe in your God?

Originally posted by Kethoticus Wiccans will disagree with me on some of this, not believing that their power comes from the devil. Ironically enough, if you ask a satanist or a Christian, however, they'll let you know the real source of the "white" witches' power. Probably the one thing satanists and Christians agree on.


I don't know about this.
I may be a pagan, but I'm not a Wicca.
You'd have to ask someone who is more informed than I.


Originally posted by Kethoticus Ask a witch--either "black" or "white"--where they're getting their power from. Satanists will tell you flat out. Wiccans worship the earth and sun. The earth is a goddess (Gaia) and the sun is a god, forming a sort of mother/father combo. They believe that nature has forces that can provide them with supernatural power. Any wiccans please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm basing this all on a conversation I had with a Wiccan a few years back. Some of my information may be inaccurate or incomplete.



See above.
I don't think I'm qualified to respond accurately.



Originally posted by Kethoticus But the bottom line is, they worship the created things--satan was created by God way back when, and the earth and sun were likewise created by God. All witches worship the crea-ted and not the Crea-tor--their first sin according to Judeo-Christian thought and belief.


Yes, a sin according to your beliefs.
Again, how does that make you right and them wrong?
Maybe what you believe is a sin to them, does that make it absolutely wrong in life, the universe and everything?

Originally posted by Kethoticus And as a Christian, I believe this is dangerous because these people believe that spiritual salvation comes from the sources of their belief and power. They ignore Christ's death on the cross, the shedding of His blood for their sin--a fatal spiritual mistake.

Again, a fatal spiritual mistake in your eyes.
One of the prblems I have with Christianity is that a lot (or at least the vast majority I've met) seem to think that they're the sole bearers of truth.
Anybody who doesn't believe that Jesus was the son of God and died and was resurrected for our sins, is going to hell.
Or at least that's what they told me.
Hell, it even scared me ehough to give Christianlty a shot, but for some reason it never felt right.
First of all, the scare tactic that led me into all this, the whole if you don't believe what we believe then you're going to Hell routine.
And for some reason, I fell for it.
Then I took a good look at what exactly I was believing.
(note, most of this is from the Christians I know, not neccecarally the views of all Christians throughout history)
Homosexuality is a sin.
That came from a comment that one of my friends made about the South Park movie.
'If Satan represents all that is evil, wouldn't he be gay?'
And my pastor agreed with him.
Then I went to this little Haloween thingie with some people from church where someone put on a RuPaul CD.
My pastor said, 'Ha, this is a Christian camp, and we're listening to RuPaul?'
There are many other little quotes, but those were the two that stuck out in my head the most, for obvious reasons.

I didn't think too much of them at the time, but after some 'soul searching', I figured out that Christianity wasn't the faith for me.
Not to say that it doesn't work for other people, just not myself.

To me, blind faith in anything is a 'sin'. Whether it is Apple, books, politics or religion, anyone that follows something without critically thinking about it is a sellout in my opinion.

There's this great quote by Jesus Himself that describes this perfectly, I just can't find it right now.

Originally posted by Kethoticus Umm... that's a pretty loaded question.

You betcha.

Originally posted by Kethoticus I'll see how succinctly I can answer this. The Bible tells of us God's plan for humanity, what our destiny is, etc, etc. FAR more important than escapist novels. Some have described the Bible as God's love letter to the human race.

So do Greek and Roman myths, except in their case it's gods.
Same thing in Native American beliefs.
Same thing in just about every religion that worships a seperate creator being.


Originally posted by Kethoticus In fact, if you want to get an idea of the kind of relationship God wants with mankind, read the Song of Songs, sometimes called The Song of Solomon. It's a romantic, almost erotic

Now you got my attention.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/grinning.gif
You'd be suprised how sexual the Bible can get at times, it's really quite astounding seeing as most Christians frown on a lot of it.
Some of the best porn I've read has been in the Bible or other ancient myths.
Much better than the 'bow-chic-a-bow-bow' stuff we have today.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/rolleyes.gif

Have you ever heard of the Nostics? (sp?)
They were a sect of Christianity that took Jesus's message of 'love your neighbor' quite physically.
Sad that they're not around today, the Roman Catholic Church gladly wiped them out hundreds of years ago.
Pity too. Maybe if they were still around the $&%$^% Puritans would never have existed.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/rolleyes.gif


Originally posted by Kethoticus book of the Old Testament. But it presents an analogy of the kind of intimacy God wants with humans, Solomon representing God, and his beautiful wife representing those who commit their ways to Him.

Interesting.
I'll have to read up on some of that.

Originally posted by Kethoticus The Harry Potter novels are fiction/fantasy. The Bible, at least according to Christians, is both God's word to us as well as an accurate record of ancient history.

Exactly.
According to Christians.
Now when you take in other culture's accurate recordings of history, then things get interesting.

Believe it or not, I actually respect all of your views, even if I disagree with some of them.
It's not my place to tell you what to believe in as your faith, it's your own personal belief as is my own faith.

Sincerely, your friendly neighborhood cross-dressing pagan.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/ppphhht.gif

[kylos]

e-coli, let me clarify something. chicagomac did not say that we should follow religion's plan. He said we should follow God's plan. Religions invariably stray from God's plan the more successful they are. You may think this is a cheap way out, but any organization will try to advance its own agenda to the detriment of others. It's just easier for religions to abuse their position. After all, their authority is from God. It's human nature that's frightening, not God.

And don't say liberals don't try to control our lives-they've found things to try to claim as moral responsibilities, like what vehicle you drive. Point is, every person tries to impose their own morality, if they have God on their side, it can make it easier. We're a lot better off if we follow God, not man, even if they claim God's authority, when they're wrong.

[kylos]

Just a few more comments...

FoF does not burn, ban or shred books. They advise parents from a Christian perspective on issues facing them at the present time. They don't promote book barbecues. They instead tell parents to discuss such things with their children and then set their own family standards (thus "focusing on the family"). They fully review and read every book or video or other media release they provide feedback on.They don't ignore violence and other issues. On the contrary, they discuss almost every questionable situation your child may face. You don't have to agree with them all the time. They just want to help parents raise their children. If you disagree with their positions, that's fine, just don't malign and misrepresent them.

[chmorley]

If FoF only did what you suggested, I would think they were a positive force. However, they also pushed a bill that would have made discrimination against gays acceptable under the law. Thankfully, the Supreme Court intervened. However, FoF showed their true colors. They do more than advise parents.

It seems that problems with religion become really problematic when one group wants everyone else to believe what they believe. This was a problem during the Crusades, and it remains a problem today (with radical Muslims and some Christian groups).

Advising ones own members seems fairly benign. That is not the limit of FoF's actions.

Chris

[Kethoticus]

I'm pooped from this thing. I don't want to spend any more time with it. I'm gonna try to make my comments brief (yeah, right). If anyone wants to follow up with me more directly on what I type, feel free to email me.

Ahh, the classic art of seduction.
Luv it.
It's actually very feminine one of the reasons why temptation and seduction are feared by Judism (sp?), Islam and Cristianity, more on that if you really want to know.
It would lead this discussion waaaaay off topic.

Maybe for some. But we do not "fear" seduction the way you appear to mean here. What we fear is driving a wedge between ourselves and God by sinning against Him. Seduction can refer to falling into ANY kind of sin, including being seduced by a lust for vengeance, e.g., (remember Darth Vader's "seduction" by the dark side of the force?). It isn't always about sex.

But I will grant you that many of us Christians are afraid of sexual sin more than others. We do tend to make a bigger deal out of it more than other sins, while God equates all sin. Why do we do this? I speculate that it's because of personal hangups and sinful desires that we're in denial about in our own sexually sinful struggles, all because we want so badly to do the right thing. But this might be like hiding our heads in the sand. Never a smart thing. And it materializes sometimes as a preoccupation or a hostility. Just my guess for right now.


And who or what's to say that you're right and they're wrong?

Well if I take that approach then there's no point in having a belief system at all. But I've decided to take the Bible as God's word and believe it to be true. If I do, then I believe it is God who said--not me--that witches sin when they practice their religion. By serving the earth, a tree or the chief fallen angel, they ignore a Holy God who loves them to His own death, but can not eternally strive with their sinful natures.

But why do I have ANY belief system? What do I base my decision on? This is a difficult question for me to answer. And actually, I'm kind of in the middle of trying to develop answers for this, so people can have a better understanding of WHY Christianity should be the way for them. But until I fully develop my thoughts, I will not be able to provide you with the kind of answers you're looking for.

For now, all I can say is this (and I'm sure it won't be good enough): in my heart, I am convinced that Jesus is Lord and that He is the only way into Heaven. If you hear His message and reject it, you have made your decision: you do not want to spend eternity with Him. When I felt convicted many years ago to submit to Him, there was a move by the Holy Ghost inside of me. It was powerful, and while I could have pushed Him away, I chose not to. That's all I did differently from the "pagan". It doesn't make me any better than him/her.

If it is that you feel I'm looking down at you from some abnormally high spiritual pedestal, fret not. I'm a sinner, too. In fact, I've asked God to show me why I deserve Hell (we ALL do). Why if not for the covering of His Son's blood would I be thrown into a lake of fire? Isn't that a bit extreme? And so far, I believe He has begun to show me some answers. My heart, deep down, is rot. I do things for selfish reasons. I sometimes lie (even though I go out of way to be truthful as much as possible, I am still not always completely honest). This makes me a liar. I desire vengeance on people who've hurt me in the past. I need to forgive them, but I haven't. I sexually lust after women every single day. My heart is corrupt. This sin deserves death: both physical death and spiritual death (separation from God). But God took that punishment for me. All I needed to do was accept His gift of bloodshed for my sake. And that is ALL that will pave my way into Heaven, and it is the rejecting of that that would have kept me out.

We Christians believe that this truth applies to all humans. We ALL have self-centered, corrupt feelings and desires that are like cancer to a perfectly Holy God. Fortunately for us, we still have a chance, because His judgement takes a backseat to His mercy. All we need to do is accept His gift.

Again, how do I know I'm right? In my heart I know it's true, but that's not good enough for the unbeliever, until God touches that person's heart the way He's touched mine (and many other Christians'). And I believe He will, in the time that's best for you. In the meantime, I'm working on developing a better thinking on this so when someone asks me intelligent and challenging questions, I'll have intelligent and challenging answers.

But until then, I'm not condemning you edvniow--or anyone else. I'm just trying to warn you. If you don't want to receive the warning, that's fine. But keep in mind that the only reason I'm "preaching" here at all is because the thread just seemed to go in that direction. But you will almost never see me just come out and start preaching at people.

If all this seems intolerant, that's fine. In my belief system, people who reject Jesus are going to Hell. Why should He allow people into His house who follow His enemy? God is intolerant of other gods, but He wants you. ALL of you. He's not intolerant of you, just your sin. And I am not intolerant of you either. Shoot, I'd hang out with you and be friends, just as long as you gave me the kind of respect for my beliefs that you'd want me to give yours.


So do Greek and Roman myths, except in their case it's gods.
Same thing in Native American beliefs.
Same thing in just about every religion that worships a seperate creator being.

No offense dude, but this wasn't the point. This was in answer to what is the difference between the Harry Potter novels and the Bible.


Again, a fatal spiritual mistake in your eyes.

Thought I made that clear. Perhaps I didn't. I mean to imply that though, regardless. In my Christian posts, I intend for their to be an implied "according to the Bible" or "according to what we Christians believe" out of respect for others.


Have you ever heard of the Nostics? (sp?)
They were a sect of Christianity that took Jesus's message of 'love your neighbor' quite physically.
Sad that they're not around today, the Roman Catholic Church gladly wiped them out hundreds of years ago.

Actually, I believe that this "sect" was promptly condemned by the apostle Paul long before the Catholic Church existed.


Pity too. Maybe if they were still around the $&%$^% Puritans would never have existed.

Tolerance?!?


Interesting.
I'll have to read up on some of that.

Get a modern english translation, like the NIV (New International Version). Shoot, just go here: http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=SONG+1&language=english&version=NIV This should take you right there.


Believe it or not, I actually respect all of your views,...

Do you really? That quote about the "$&%$^% Puritans" seemed awfully intolerant (not to overuse that already overused word). Even though I disagree with you, I would certainly never wish that you never existed.


It's not my place to tell you what to believe in as your faith, it's your own personal belief as is my own faith.

I hope I've demonstrated the same kind of "non-pushiness". Like I said, the only reason I've discussed this stuff at all is because it seemed relevant to the thread. Otherwise, you folks might not ever know that I was even a Christian.


Well, I'm outta this one. It is starting to dig into my personal time. If anyone wants to discuss--and I mean *DISCUSS*, not flame--anything with me, I can be emailed from here.

[ChicagoMac]

WOW! This thread has been interesting.

Somebody tried explaning what I meant a few replies up, but let me explain what I meant by God's plan for the family solving a lot of problems in the world. God has set it up so that a man and a woman would come together in marriage, having saved themselves sexually for that person, and staying pure within that relationship (no sex outside of the marriage). Also, staying togther for life, assuming both have remained faithful. It also involves loving the other as you would yourself. Love is patient, love is knd, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no records of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

I believe that God is very practical in many things. So lets look at some of the practical results of such a life. First, the sexual aspect: If we all kept ourselves pure until marriage think of the benefits. People would be saved from that form of emotional pain, damaged relationships, and unwanted pregnancies. STDs would virtually be non-existant. Our country would save billions of dollars every year just from not having to counsel these hurting people, doctor bills for both pregnancies and STDs, insurance premiums, abortions, etc...

Of course, sex ourside of marriage produces it's own problems. Again, more STDs, unwanted pregnancies and divorce. Keeping it inside of your own marriage would take care of that. Also, divorce creates it's own problems too. Again, billions spent on divorces every year and now the kids have only one of their biological parents in the home. Studies show that most men in prison had no father in the home or a father who spent no time with them. So now our prisons wouldn't be overcrowded either, saving us billions once again.

Finally (because I have to get to work), if the husband and wife loved each other as themselves, we would have great families and all of the above mentioned would tie together.

Is this all possible? It takes a lot of work and a lot of laying down your pride and lust.

That's what I meant, in a very small nut shell, about God's plan for the family.

[vniow]

Originally posted by Kethoticus
Tolerance?!?


Do you really? That quote about the "$&%$^% Puritans" seemed awfully intolerant (not to overuse that already overused word). Even though I disagree with you, I would certainly never wish that you never existed.



Apologies for my comments about the Puritans.

I believe that they are responsible for the roots of many problems in our culture and I've had to deal with some of those personally so I lashed out.
Again apoligies.

Blah.

[diorio]

Originally posted by ChicagoMac
WOW! This thread has been interesting.

Somebody tried explaning what I meant a few replies up, but let me explain what I meant by God's plan for the family solving a lot of problems in the world. God has set it up so that a man and a woman would come together in marriage, having saved themselves sexually for that person, and staying pure within that relationship (no sex outside of the marriage

Does the five fingered lover count?:D :p ;) :cool:

[sonofeyelikeart]

Look, Harry Potter is never said to be a disciple of Christ in the books so therefore he is communing with Satan. Look at all these little kids pretending to be Harry Potter, as far as I'm concerned they are now allies of Satan and are lost. The best we can do is get rid of the books before Satan can take too much of our youth. I hope that the author enjoys her stay in the flames that burn but do not consume.

[diorio]

Originally posted by sonofeyelikeart
Look, Harry Potter is never said to be a disciple of Christ in the books so therefore he is communing with Satan. Look at all these little kids pretending to be Harry Potter, as far as I'm concerned they are now allies of Satan and are lost. The best we can do is get rid of the books before Satan can take too much of our youth. I hope that the author enjoys her stay in the flames that burn but do not consume.

I like your last sentence there, but frankly the rest is crap. CM, and K dog already went this way, but frankly their posts didn't make much sense either.

[vniow]

Originally posted by diorio


I like your last sentence there, but frankly the rest is crap. CM, and K dog already went this way, but frankly their posts didn't make much sense either.


Do you have any idea who sonofeyelikeart (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6209&perpage=25&pagenumber=1) is?

[Nipsy]

Originally posted by sonofeyelikeart
Look, Harry Potter is never said to be a disciple of Christ in the books so therefore he is communing with Satan. Look at all these little kids pretending to be Harry Potter, as far as I'm concerned they are now allies of Satan and are lost. The best we can do is get rid of the books before Satan can take too much of our youth. I hope that the author enjoys her stay in the flames that burn but do not consume.

Nah, you need to do the Christian thing and get rid of all the little kids...send them to Harry Potter Kiddie Camps in Dachau...

Get over it folks...wishing eternal hellfire on a lady who wrote some kiddie books is perverse, and prolly a sin of some form.

If you you live in fear that the printed word is a threat to your religion, you need to evaluate your take on religion. Harry Potter is a story. The Bible is a story. The film Beavis & Butthead Do America is a story. You have the right (our founding fathers called it a God given right) to CHOOSE which story you want to beleive, free from persecution.

If you cannot let others do what they CHOOSE, there are several countries in the developing world (Nigeria, Afghanistan, Iraq) which will help you remove choice from your life.

This was a country built by exiles of persecution, which is now filled with ignorant intolerant Bible thumping jackasses practicing the same sort of intolerance this nation was created to avoid.

Believe whatever you choose, share your values with others, pray, do what you want, but know, as soon as your doings impede or impose upon the CHOICE of others, Gay, Black, Wiccan, handicapped, nudist, Atheist, Jew, Muslim, the Cross Dressing Fry Cook at McDonalds, etc. you have become PART OF THE PROBLEM.

Everyone should listen to more George Carlin on religion, because as much as you may hate it will make you think...

[diorio]

Originally posted by edvniow



Do you have any idea who sonofeyelikeart (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6209&perpage=25&pagenumber=1) is?

I don't actually know who it is, I know of him. I'm guessing it's eyelikeart trying to gain some publicity or something.;) :D :p :cool:

[evildead]

i love religious freeks... they care so much about my kids that they dont care about their own kids... that shows they love me :)

While they are protesting Harry Potter so my kids cant cross the picket line... their kids are at church camp getting raped by their youth minisiter

[diorio]

Originally posted by evildead
i love religious freeks... they care so much about my kids that they dont care about their own kids... that shows they love me :)

While they are protesting Harry Potter so my kids cant cross the picket line... their kids are at church camp getting raped by their youth minisiter

Sad but not unrealistic. They should focus on their own families and let us take care of ours.