how long will W's numbers stay in the high range?

[jefhatfield]

the president has an approval rating nearing 70% percent, almost as high as his father had in the early '90s...most likely due to a popular war against a hated dictator

but how long will W stay popular?

do you feel he is ignoring domestic issues like his father did...and will that cost the president the election?

what do you think?

[alex_ant]

I frankly think that he will continue to be popular for the foreseeable future and that he will be our president until 2008. (As much as I cringe at that thought.) Unless the Democrats can somehow manage to stop being such airheads and get their **** together...

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by alex_ant
I frankly think that he will continue to be popular for the foreseeable future and that he will be our president until 2008. (As much as I cringe at that thought.) Unless the Democrats can somehow manage to stop being such airheads and get their **** together...

if economy is still weak, even walter mondale can walk into the white house

edwards or gore will likely be the go to people

maybe even senator clinton

[alex_ant]

But the economy is weak now, and Bush is doing very well... if he can keep his War on Terrorism schtick up, he'll be all set.

I think what happened with Bush Sr. was that the Gulf War either began too early or ended too soon. If it had begun in July 1992 instead of January 1991, I think he would have rolled all over Clinton.

I would like to see more dynamic, individualistic candidates run for the presidency. McCain, Feingold, Wellstone (RIP), let's see... who else... it's a shame there aren't more elected representatives like this. :( Instead we're stuck with the dullest of the dull in Bush and Gore and probably most of the others who will be in the primaries.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by alex_ant
But the economy is weak now, and Bush is doing very well... if he can keep his War on Terrorism schtick up, he'll be all set.

I think what happened with Bush Sr. was that the Gulf War either began too early or ended too soon. If it had begun in July 1992 instead of January 1991, I think he would have rolled all over Clinton.

I would like to see more dynamic, individualistic candidates run for the presidency. McCain, Feingold, Wellstone (RIP), let's see... who else... it's a shame there aren't more elected representatives like this. :( Instead we're stuck with the dullest of the dull in Bush and Gore and probably most of the others who will be in the primaries.

possibly true, but bush in '91 had a 90+ approval rating, the highest recorded number in united states history

a year later, he was the dog of failed trickle down theory:p

[e-coli]

As soon as everyone figures out just how permeating the Information Awareness office is, I bet the approval rating will drop like the Hindenburgh.

At least it should...and if that doesn't do it, the fact that John Poindexter (of the Iran Contra scandal) will be heading it, should.

And I don't think the "War on Terrorism" is going very well, either. They're still as big of a threat as they were a year ago, and we've managed to miss all the "Big Fish"

And I'll eat my hat if Kenneth Lay gets any prison time.

[agreenster]

First off, about the economy. Maybe I'm ignorant, but how can ONE man's decisions affect the entire country's economy? I have never been able to figure that out.

I think W is simply a war-monger, out to seek revenge on his father's enemy. Period.

Lastly, Gore will not run for president next term. He has fallen from politics (according to mainstream media), and all of his former people have all agreed that he has waited too long to rally monies and support for the upcoming election. Who knows though.

And Hillary??? Gag me. Yuck. She is SUCH a B*tch.

[wdlove]

I see no reason currently that would not allow a 2nd Bush administration. Polls show that Americans don't blame Congress or the President for the economy. Consumer spending accounts for 2/3's of the economy.

Bush is conducting this war as his Constitutional mandate, US security is at stake. The US Senate overwhelmingly passed a reolution to support his action. Bush 41 went along with world opinion, there was no mandate at the time to attack Bagdad. Hind sight is always 20/20!

The mantle of greatness is something that a man doesn't ask for, Theodore Roosevelt & Winston Churchill. The war Terrorism will last for the foreseeable future, a longterm situation, incidious in numerous countries. Its going to take time & resolve. I think his approval rating will stay high because the American people see that he is committed & means what he says, honesty.

Al Gore was raised to be President, lived his whole life preparing. The last I heard, with Democrat primary voters he's ahead.

Hilary Clinton wants an open seat, she's running in 2008. Sadly she has a 50% chance.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by wdlove
The war Terrorism will last for the forceable future, a longterm situation, incidious in numerous countries. Its going to take time & resolve.

i think the bolded word is an interesting typo. i'd have to assume that you meant "foreseeable", but "forceable" might make more sense, since politicians will continue to push the "war on terror" until it no longer suits their needs... granted, i don't think it started that way. but it has turned into a great way to keep the ratings high.

[zimv20]

i'm afraid the GOP will remain in power as long as americans are scared. and the GOP is good at making sure we stay scared.

GOP = Greed, Oil, Permanent War

i invented that, so please credit me :-)

seriously, i think we'll be in a state of war for the rest of our lives. Bush and co. (Karl Rove, especially) aren't stupid -- they know their policies piss off the rest of the world. and that's good economic sense for their friends, relatives, and contibutors in the defense industries.

anyone notice that the Afghan's preisdent's security force, previously US Special Forces, has been replaced by private contractors? (DynCorp, friends of the Bush family)

a lot of the military is being privitized. watch as those contracts go to DynCorp, Halliburton (Cheney was CEO), Carlyle Group (Bush Sr. works there). not only does that funnel gov't money to Bush's friends, but those companies are more or less free to set prices. and since they're not fed gov't employees, they're non-union, don't have whistleblower protection, etc.

permanent war. get used to it. and anything that promotes it, like terrorist attacks in the US.

[e-coli]

Originally posted by wdlove
The mantle of greatness is something that a man doesn't ask for, Theodore Roosevelt & Winston Churchill.

uhem...excuse me, but I would hardly compare Bush to Roosevelt and Churchill.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by zimv20
i'm afraid the GOP will remain in power as long as americans are scared. and the GOP is good at making sure we stay scared.

GOP = Greed, Oil, Permanent War

i invented that, so please credit me :-)

seriously, i think we'll be in a state of war for the rest of our lives. Bush and co. (Karl Rove, especially) aren't stupid -- they know their policies piss off the rest of the world. and that's good economic sense for their friends, relatives, and contibutors in the defense industries.

anyone notice that the Afghan's preisdent's security force, previously US Special Forces, has been replaced by private contractors? (DynCorp, friends of the Bush family)

a lot of the military is being privitized. watch as those contracts go to DynCorp, Halliburton (Cheney was CEO), Carlyle Group (Bush Sr. works there). not only does that funnel gov't money to Bush's friends, but those companies are more or less free to set prices. and since they're not fed gov't employees, they're non-union, don't have whistleblower protection, etc.

permanent war. get used to it. and anything that promotes it, like terrorist attacks in the US.

first off, i like your acronym...i will call it into rush limberger's show next week ;)

as a former cia and dod person, i would say that only some of the military is being privatized, not a lot of it

while i was at dod, the permanent transition of the united states coast guard from the defense department to the transportation department was being done...for a little longer, the coast guard may aid the navy in times of war, but pretty soon, the uscg will be a full time, for all time, law enforcement agency of the department of transportation

they will gain broad powers one could only dream about and the training and selection will become the most vigorous ever

no longer will it be kelly's heroes or the dirty dozen...at least not with the coast guard

will there still be mentally unstable personnel who get into the remaining military...army, navy, air force, marines?

my guess, judging from john mohammad and timothy mcveigh...yes

but try getting anyone with that type of powder keg personality in tomorrow's coast guard...it just won't happen

sure, there will be one who slips through the cracks, but with all the drugs they capture, the uscg would want their personnel to be as clean and honest as possible

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by wdlove
I see no reason currently that would not allow a 2nd Bush administration. Polls show that Americans don't blame Congress or the President for the economy.

it's one of the first things i learned in mba school, but most americans still vote their pocketbook and the president becomes a scapegoat during bad times in an presidential election year

for the first time in memory, a sitting presidential candidate on top of years of mostly good economic times, al gore, lost the election

now that is a choke manuever for all poly sci types to talk over for the next fifty years

and for sports fans, how did the giants blow a strong lead late in game six of the world series?

the economy could be in shreds and we could get our butt kicked in iraq with fifty thousand dead, as mentioned by a rather high ranking military person who knows the brutality of city warfare...see black hawk down...and someone like gore would still not be able to capitalize on that and win an election

he has tried to remake himself too much and the only politicial dead man who pulled off a true rebirth and captured the white house was richard nixon, probably the best president since world war II...and i am saying this as a democrat:D

[wdlove]

CBS / New York Times Poll

"Positive rating GOP but not policies"

Phone call made to 4 out of 10 voters, according to polling history voters tend to be more conservative.

1. Bush ratings continue high >60%
2. 2/3 favorable rating Republicans
3. 1/2 unfavorable Democrats
4. 2-1 unfavorable Gore, only 19% want him to run
5. Democrats failed to give voters a reason to vote against Republicans.

Voters not accept Socialist message.

[alex_ant]

If you think Gore is a socialist, then the US truly is dominated by the far right. :)

[SPG]

The US is dominated by the far right.
How about this for the GOP: Greed, Oil, Power.
The permanent war on terror will be the catalyst to keep the right in, and keep the left down. Who wants to dissent from the government during a war? Especially now that the government can easily keep tabs on your dissent.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by SPG

How about this for the GOP: Greed, Oil, Power.


yeah, that was the first one i thought of. then i decided that greed extended beyond money to power, freeing up the 'p' for the permanent war.

mark my words, it's our future.

[SPG]

I like it since the permanent war is only really a means to more power.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by alex_ant
If you think Gore is a socialist, then the US truly is dominated by the far right. :)

i worked for the department of defense in a personnel that was mostly middle of the road or conservative and we were in a socialist department within the us government...pork, pork, pork!...baby he he

somehow it worked

the us is not reduced to simple labels like capitalist, communist, and socialist

there is no pure system any one agency or business or person used in the good old usa

[benixau]

Originally posted by wdlove
Bush is conducting this war as his Constitutional mandate, US security is at stake. The US Senate overwhelmingly passed a reolution to support his action.

If i am correct doesnt he hold the majority in both houses????

if so then i see no reason why the senate coudln't let alone wouldn't.

[sturm375]

The data gathering act was voted in by both republicans and democrates alike. So you can't blame just the republicans for this crap, I personally blame Congress (Senate and House) for being corrupt, and inept.

Coast Guard will be transfered to the Department of Homeland Security, unless I'm mistaken. They will no longer be part of the Department of Transpertation.

The president can affect the economy. They can get on their "Bully Pulpit" and talk up/down the economy, and the idots on Wallstreet listen. This is the trouble with so few people maintaining the market, and these few people have no idea what it's like in an actual store. They don't even have to be president to affect the economy, I saw it in the 2000 presidential election. Both canadates, Bush more so, talked down the economy. Guess what, it became a self fufilling prophecy. During the election, I frequented many different stores, consumer buying never stopped, manufacturing stopped, shelves became empty. If the shelves are empty, there's nothing for consumers to buy. The market suddenly saw a downturn. This is probably over simplification, but that is what I, a consumer, saw.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by zimv20
i'm afraid the GOP will remain in power as long as americans are scared. and the GOP is good at making sure we stay scared.



WHAT! Are you out of your mind! I am sick of the lies! War is hereby declared on the lies that left wing folks are saying! Democrats make their living off of scaring people. Minorities, elderly, man, think about how lame a statement you just through out into the discussion.

Oh, and agreenster, get off this "he is out to avenge his daddy" crap. That is all it is. Even the democrats agree that this is absolute poo.

Now, as for Jef's question. As long as the war is going smoothly, and as long as the economy continues to grow, then W will be in the house. And for all of those that say the economy is weak, shut the hell up! 4% growth in the economy in Q3 which is historically slow! 7 straight weeks of gains on Wall Street. All the leading indicators are solid, interest rates are sick low. Damn, open your eyes and stop listening to Hillary "Satan" Clinton, and Tom "can't tell the truth" Daschle!

Ok, that is all for now, I have to go take something before I respond to any other nonsense here.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by alex_ant
If you think Gore is a socialist, then the US truly is dominated by the far right. :)

Um, Gore just said two weeks ago that he thinks we need a "one payer" health care system"

Call me crazy, but isn't that what Canada and England have?

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by SPG
The US is dominated by the far right.
How about this for the GOP: Greed, Oil, Power.
The permanent war on terror will be the catalyst to keep the right in, and keep the left down. Who wants to dissent from the government during a war? Especially now that the government can easily keep tabs on your dissent.

Man, the left is keeping themselves down! They have no identity. They have spread themselves so think that they do not even know what they represent anymore. The notion of two cars in every garage and a chicken in every pot has been replaced with a very left agenda that is causeing 90% of the problems in this country today!

Can't spank kids in school anymore, can't pray in school, can't do this, can't be a kid and be a bully, can't keep score in sports....

Can kill a baby, can protect a convicted murder, can give people everything they need to live when they are to damn lazy to do it for themselves. Can call their constituats stupid to their faces and disempower them through social programs that don't work....

Get the point. They have no identity and need to focus on an agenda.



Oh, and one last thing. If Satan, I mean Hillary Clinton ever became President, I would move to another country.

[sturm375]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


WHAT! Are you out of your mind! I am sick of the lies! War is hereby declared on the lies that left wing folks are saying! Democrats make their living off of scaring people. Minorities, elderly, man, think about how lame a statement you just through out into the discussion.

Oh, and agreenster, get off this "he is out to avenge his daddy" crap. That is all it is. Even the democrats agree that this is absolute poo.

Now, as for Jef's question. As long as the war is going smoothly, and as long as the economy continues to grow, then W will be in the house. And for all of those that say the economy is weak, shut the hell up! 4% growth in the economy in Q3 which is historically slow! 7 straight weeks of gains on Wall Street. All the leading indicators are solid, interest rates are sick low. Damn, open your eyes and stop listening to Hillary "Satan" Clinton, and Tom "can't tell the truth" Daschle!

Ok, that is all for now, I have to go take something before I respond to any other nonsense here.

Dont' go there:mad:

Both parties are equally guilty of the "scare tactics". Dems scare old people about social programs, while Repubs scare people about how "evil so and such" country will invade if you don't elect me.

Both the Democrats, and the Republicans disgust me in their tactics. And neither party should ever claim the "moral highground." Their both equally corrupt. Neither one represent the people of this nation anymore.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by sturm375


Dont' go there:mad:

Both parties are equally guilty of the "scare tactics". Dems scare old people about social programs, while Repubs scare people about how "evil so and such" country will invade if you don't elect me.

Both the Democrats, and the Republicans disgust me in their tactics. And neither party should ever claim the "moral highground." Their both equally corrupt. Neither one represent the people of this nation anymore.

Please tell me this is a joke! Moral high ground. try this on. Dems defend the lives of convicted killers and say go ahead and kill your unborn child. Yea, I think there is a moral high ground.

And while you are at it. Do me a favor and let me know the last time that a Republican candidate for president ran on the platform of "...(insert country here) will invade the US mainland unless you elect me....."

I can't wait to hear this one.

[sturm375]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Please tell me this is a joke! Moral high ground. try this on. Dems defend the lives of convicted killers and say go ahead and kill your unborn child. Yea, I think there is a moral high ground.

And while you are at it. Do me a favor and let me know the last time that a Republican candidate for president ran on the platform of "...(insert country here) will invade the US mainland unless you elect me....."

I can't wait to hear this one.

Meanwhile Ashcroft has invoked his power to make state laws in Oragon and California useless. His DEA has been reported as "beating" ailing people in Californian clinics for medicinal marajana(sp?) use. Using his power to threaten doctors in Oragon who might assist in a mercy suicide. This is his moral high ground, dictating beliefs to others. How much pork has been added to the Homeland Secuity bill recently passed, added by Republicans. Locally the republican canadate for State Attorny General, who failed to get elected, is responsible for convicting a person for murder, when it's been proven he knew through DNA evidence he didn't do it. The republican party (rule of law party) is currently using every loophole in the book to subvert the Constitutional rights of US citizens.

Those are a few things that come to mind of hand. And I am by no means saying that Democrats are better. Both parties are equally corrupted by money and power.

They of course do not run on the platform of protecting us from invading counties, but the rhetoric is there. I remember several instances of Bush Jr's suspicision of China during the 2000 election. He is currenlty stirring the fear pot with his "axis of evil."
Regan: Cold War, Star Wars
Bush-1: Star Wars

And it's not only military invasions, many run on setting up trade barriers. They call them "fair trade" measures, but any, and I do mean any, trade barriers is a form of economic warfare, and a method of oppression of free enterprise.

Again, I am to saying that Republicans hold the monopoly on this tactic. Both parties use fear on different things.

[wdlove]

President Bush signed his long awaited Terrroism Insurance Bill yesterday. Its supposed to spur new construction and create thousands of jobs.

Its criticized by consumer groups as a costly handout to insurance companies. Reluctantly passed because lawmakers heard antecdotal reports from their states of businesses unable to get insurance coverage.

Commercial building has been down since 2000. The 1st 9 months of 2002 construction is down 17% from 2001.

It will create jobs, needed in our weak economy.

The law runs for 3 years. The passage occured because of the White House & Sen. Chris Dodd, D CT.

"We're keeping our fingers crossed," said Kenneth simonson chief economist for the Associated General Contractors of America. "We don't know for sure if this will give owners the comfort and actual financing that they need."

This is a way for Bush to woo support from Unions. It all depends on the number of jobs that are created.

[zarathustra]

Originally posted by zimv20


yeah, that was the first one i thought of. then i decided that greed extended beyond money to power, freeing up the 'p' for the permanent war.

mark my words, it's our future.

You try to be smart, but fall short. Did you realize that your acronym should be GOPW?


As much as democrats hate generalizations about them (socialist, etc.) the GOP (or greed, oil, power) is not every GOP sympathizer's view.

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Um, Gore just said two weeks ago that he thinks we need a "one payer" health care system"

Call me crazy, but isn't that what Canada and England have?
Yes... Canada and English are socialist?!?!

I would say they operate on some socialist principles... but they are certainly a far cry from socialism!

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
And for all of those that say the economy is weak, shut the hell up! 4% growth in the economy in Q3 which is historically slow! 7 straight weeks of gains on Wall Street. All the leading indicators are solid, interest rates are sick low.

if this economy is good, then black is white. sorry, my investments are down 40+% since bush took office.

tell you what, go here:

massive evidence of bush's damage (http://www.buzzflash.com/perspectives/2002/Economy.html)

read the evidence. if you still think the economy is good, and bush is good for it, i don't want to talk to you (because you're unreasonable). if you see the light, awesome.

[etoiles]

Tell me one constructive thing Bush and his crew have achieved since they took over ? The 'War on Terrorism' is the biggest joke since the 'War on Drugs'. People disagree with our foreign policies ? Make sure they shut up. We have an energy crisis ? Let's waste more resources ! People are unhappy ? Give them some face/symbol they can hate...or just keep them busy with fear. It is all about making enough noise and creating enough chaos to maintain power. Real issues are never tackled.

And don't tell me 'yeah, but democrats...'. I don't care. They might be as bad. But Bush is in power NOW, he is shaping the future of this country TODAY. The US cannot hide behind its military and economic strength. At some point, it is all coming straight back, as it happened a little over a year ago...

There are so many great people in this country, why do we always get the goofy ones as politicians ?

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


WHAT! Are you out of your mind! I am sick of the lies! War is hereby declared on the lies that left wing folks are saying! Democrats make their living off of scaring people. Minorities, elderly, man, think about how lame a statement you just through out into the discussion.

i think both parties are good at scare tactics and smear tactics

it got really bad starting in the 80s on both sides and hit its all time low with the dems attacking reagan and the gop attacking clinton

realize that both these men were the only two presidents that completed two terms since eisenhower and fdr before that

interesting...but take it as you may

[SPG]

jef, thank you for overstating the obvious again. yes both parties have engaged in POLITICS but as etoiles has pointed out the Bush regime curently holds power and is dictating the policy that we have to live by. I know you really like to ride the middle of the road and try to become a voice of reason as a moderator, but do you really think the level of aggression and attacks from the two parties is equal?
The democrats attacking Reagan? For Iran Contra? He should have been impeached and gone to jail for that, and you know that if Clinton had tried it he'd be locked up right now. The GOP spent millions and never got anything more than a stained dress and the fact that the President didn't want to tell the whole truth about his affair that had nothing to do with running the country.
The republican party behaves more like pit bulls, attack attack bark bark! Push the agenda with any means and any cost.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by SPG
jef, thank you for overstating the obvious again. yes both parties have engaged in POLITICS but as etoiles has pointed out the Bush regime curently holds power and is dictating the policy that we have to live by. I know you really like to ride the middle of the road and try to become a voice of reason as a moderator, but do you really think the level of aggression and attacks from the two parties is equal?
The democrats attacking Reagan? For Iran Contra? He should have been impeached and gone to jail for that, and you know that if Clinton had tried it he'd be locked up right now. The GOP spent millions and never got anything more than a stained dress and the fact that the President didn't want to tell the whole truth about his affair that had nothing to do with running the country.
The republican party behaves more like pit bulls, attack attack bark bark! Push the agenda with any means and any cost.

since we are coming off of eight years of democratic rule, most posters here under thirty will most likely only remember the constant mud slinging by bob dole and newt gingrich

but are you old enough to remember tip o'neill and the democratic congress that tried to gridlock every move of ronald reagan in the 80s?

sure, the gop has done more mud slinging of late, but in california, governor gray davis attacked republican challenger bill simon in the nastiest ways i have ever seen on tv

many democrats like me either didn't vote for the governor's slot or went with the green party or some independent party candidate

sure, bill simon was no winner and the gop's worst choice for governor in recent memory, but gray davis was ruthless

in the end, davis still won and a governor who had such a commanding lead going into the election did not have to resort to such mudslinging

as far as iran contra, there is nothing clinton did that was that bad or criminal

in my humble opinion, iran contra was worse, but harder to understand, than watergate...i don't see reagan as sneaky or paranoid as nixon, but oliver north was a traitor and a drug dealer as well as a collaborator of weapons trade and terrorism

and he calls himself a believer of god...maybe now because anyone can repent but many religious gop leaders and voters, while they liked reagan, knew that lt.col. oliver north was a liar and snake in the grass

the local military base here was not even allowed to mention his name since he was a disgrace to his uniform and the dod and cia which i was a part of

nancy reagan was so disgusted with oliver north that she said he was NOT a hero on sixty minutes

[SPG]

Trying to gridlock legislation that you don't support and the people elected you to not support is a far cry from going on witchhunts to oust the justly elected leadership just because they belong to a different party.
And if you want to talk about gridlock, the GOP has done all sorts of things to stifle criticism of their agenda, even shortened the debate time to keep the critics silent, all the while claiming a new era of bipartisanship.

I gotta go meet some friends and start roasting the bird. Happy Thanksgiving and sorry if I came off a little harsh on you on that other post.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by SPG
Trying to gridlock legislation that you don't support and the people elected you to not support is a far cry from going on witchhunts to oust the justly elected leadership just because they belong to a different party.
And if you want to talk about gridlock, the GOP has done all sorts of things to stifle criticism of their agenda, even shortened the debate time to keep the critics silent, all the while claiming a new era of bipartisanship.

I gotta go meet some friends and start roasting the bird. Happy Thanksgiving and sorry if I came off a little harsh on you on that other post.

hey, that's ok

we are still of the same party:p

[Backtothemac]

Jesus, why are so many Mac users left wing liberals? Yes, Bush has done quite a bit of good since he came into office. lets see, real education bill that does something, tax cuts, executed the war very well, and oh, yea, do his job.

yea, the economy has been in recession, but that recession started in late 98, and you know it. Well, you do if you understand anything about economics. If your investments are down 40% you had them in some rather nasty places, and have not moved it around as you should.

[Omen88]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Jesus, why are so many Mac users left wing liberals? Yes, Bush has done quite a bit of good since he came into office. lets see, real education bill that does something, tax cuts, executed the war very well, and oh, yea, do his job.

yea, the economy has been in recession, but that recession started in late 98, and you know it. Well, you do if you understand anything about economics. If your investments are down 40% you had them in some rather nasty places, and have not moved it around as you should.

It's a lot worse in most European countries, the left wing really has a stranglehold here. Everything has to be politically correct and if you dare to vote for a "bad" (alas right wing) party you're treated like scum. Those people feel like they're always right and someone with a different opinion has to shut up and/or be imprisoned.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by Omen88


It's a lot worse in most European countries, the left wing really has a stranglehold here. Everything has to be politically correct and if you dare to vote for a "bad" (alas right wing) party you're treated like scum. Those people feel like they're always right and someone with a different opinion has to shut up and/or be imprisoned.

Yep, and that is exactly why I fight so hard against the left agenda here in the US. They would love to turn us into an extention of Europe. While I love Europe, I choose the US because of the privatization of the industries here.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
real education bill that does something, tax cuts,


the education bill, hm.

1. vouchers: vouchers are unproven. what is known is that desireable schools are seeing an influx of students they can't handle w/o an accompanying increase in funding. class sizes are getting larger in those schools.

undesireable schools are losing students and, thusly, funding. they have no money to improve and the students left behind (pun intended) are in an ever-worsening situation.

2. separation of church and state: it's only one of our founding principles. now non-secular institutions can receive federal funding and, investigations have shown, are using those funds to further their religion. naughty, naughty. but the administration turns a blind eye.

3. testing: the company in charge of analyzing national education progress is the same as the one making the tests. that's a conflict of interest, since you know they'll report that they're doing a good job. given this administration's penchance for secrecy, i'm sure that data will be a national secret and free of oversight. oh, by the way, one of bush's brothers helps run that company.

executed the war very well, and oh, yea, do his job.

oh, has he? bin laden dead or alive? whatever happened to that?

according to george tenet, director of the cia, al qaeda is as strong as ever. and according to the pentagon chief (i forgot his name, forgive me), the taliban are gathering strength and afghanistan is falling back to the warlords.

we'd hear about that more, if the media weren't so focused on iraq. where, as you know, no link has been found w/ al qaeda, despite bush telling cia analysts to find one.

yea, the economy has been in recession, but that recession started in late 98, and you know it. Well, you do if you understand anything about economics.


do tell, have your investments done better? and your degree is in economics? my lack of degree in economics has no bearing on the ecomony at large. and my own investments have done better than the market as a whole. i'm VERY diversified, on account of my financial planner, who's done a great job given the market as a whole.

here is the bottom line. i am INFORMED, you are OPINIONATED. there's a difference. don't base your own opinions on limbaugh. read some objective reporting (if you can find any), draw your own conclusions. here are mine:

1. those who paid to get bush in office are getting paid back, at the expense of the environment and health and safety of citizens

2. oil is the means to power. bush seeks to control countries that have it (afghanistan, iraq -- is saudi arabia next? and watch out for US involvement in venezuela)

3. the US is quite unpopular. we are making new enemies and new terrorists every day.

4. was is good for bush's friends. he will make decisions to aggravate others, cause and maintain war.

5. secrecy is paramount in this administration. bush does not feel accountable to citizens, only his contributors and bush-family loyalists.

if you're a smart, considerate person, you will read and keep those points in mind. watch what bush does, keep in mind his hidden agenda (as outlined in those 5 points), and ask yourself how what he does benefits him and his friends. then ask how it benefits the country in general.

if you do so honestly and reasonably, you will come to agree w/ me. if you decide i'm a moron and would rather beat your chest and think the rest of the world is idiotic, you get what you deserve.

[zimv20]

here's an example of the kind of stuff that makes me mad, for a number of reasons:

whence whistleblower protection? (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/18/national/printable529674.shtml)

remember, there is NO whistleblower protection in the Dept. of Homeland Security. should we be expecting more of this?

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by zimv20

here is the bottom line. i am INFORMED, you are OPINIONATED.

Really, then why not show me the phrase "seperation of church and state" in the constitution?

Um, I am informed. I have a MA in Political Science, and have worked in the federal government, so don't assume you know what I am.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Really, then why not show me the phrase "seperation of church and state" in the constitution?


he-he -- you live in la-la land. i'm no longer monitoring this thread.

[diorio]

Originally posted by zimv20


he-he -- you live in la-la land. i'm no longer monitoring this thread.

Good, frankly nobody wants to read your idiodic comments anymore anyways.

[etoiles]

Originally posted by Omen88


It's a lot worse in most European countries, the left wing really has a stranglehold here. Everything has to be politically correct and if you dare to vote for a "bad" (alas right wing) party you're treated like scum. Those people feel like they're always right and someone with a different opinion has to shut up and/or be imprisoned.

sorry, but this is ridiculous ! Europe as a whole has shifted to the right (even so called labour parties) over the last few years, and who exactly got shut up or imprisoned for his opinions ? Any examples ?

[etoiles]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Yep, and that is exactly why I fight so hard against the left agenda here in the US. They would love to turn us into an extention of Europe. While I love Europe, I choose the US because of the privatization of the industries here.

Actually, Europe figths very hard not to become an extention of the US. Their whole economy has been 'Americanized', through privatization, the infamous 'shareholders value' model and a general lack of state intervention. Threating companies like abstract entities, removing all responsability towards society (on which they still rely)...you'd like it there :p

[etoiles]

Originally posted by diorio


Good, frankly nobody wants to read your idiodic comments anymore anyways.

don't be so constructive...

:rolleyes:

[Omen88]

Originally posted by etoiles


sorry, but this is ridiculous ! Europe as a whole has shifted to the right (even so called labour parties) over the last few years, and who exactly got shut up or imprisoned for his opinions ? Any examples ?

Well for example here in Belgium, Vlaams Blok is sent to court (the 3rd biggest party of the country!) on so called basis of racism. You had the FPÖ of Jorg Haider that caused the most idiotic reactions in Europe (even the left wing calling for not to go skiing anymore in Austria). Then there's rallies of unions when a right wing party could possibly be elected (France) or gets elected (Italy). I could go on and on.

The fact is Europe's people are shifting towards the right wing but the politicians are doing everything to stop it.

[SPG]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Really, then why not show me the phrase "seperation of church and state" in the constitution?

Um, I am informed. I have a MA in Political Science, and have worked in the federal government, so don't assume you know what I am.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

[etoiles]

Originally posted by Omen88


Well for example here in Belgium, Vlaams Blok is sent to court (the 3rd biggest party of the country!) on so called basis of racism. You had the FPÖ of Jorg Haider that caused the most idiotic reactions in Europe (even the left wing calling for not to go skiing anymore in Austria). Then there's rallies of unions when a right wing party could possibly be elected (France) or gets elected (Italy). I could go on and on.

The fact is Europe's people are shifting towards the right wing but the politicians are doing everything to stop it.

are you saying racism and xenophobia should not be condemned ?

[e-coli]

All I have to say is that we're living in a sad time for America.

No more Attorney Client privilege, no more protection from illegal search and seizure, no more right to due process or writ of habeas corpus, no more Congressional War Powers Act, no more Freedom of Information act (except when it comes to the government collecting information about you), an administration that has a horrendous (and quickly worsening) environmental record, oil drilling in national parks, bad economy, and high unemployment, on the verge of an unnecessary war...

[wdlove]

As for Clinton doing nothing illegal, a Federal Judge stated that he lied under oath. These articles below discuss his complicity in possible treasonous acts. Being a Democrat, with high approval ratings, Democrat Senate, & a split House saved him. Clinton was the 1st elected President to be impeached, they just didn't use the correct charge. The sex was a private matter & none of our business, only if it effected his ability to run the country would it matter. A disclaimer, the 4th article is not for those that are anti religion!

http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/1997/printer_33.shtml

http://www.cnn.com/US/9903/10/nuclear.secrets.02/

http://www.cnn.com/US/9903/06/us.china/

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1166.cfm

[sturm375]

Originally posted by wdlove
As for Clinton doing nothing illegal, a Federal Judge stated that he lied under oath. These articles below discuss his complicity in possible treasonous acts. Being a Democrat, with high approval ratings, Democrat Senate, & a split House saved him. Clinton was the 1st elected President to be impeached, they just didn't use the correct charge. The sex was a private matter & none of our business, only if it effected his ability to run the country would it matter. A disclaimer, the 4th article is not for those that are anti religion!

http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/1997/printer_33.shtml

http://www.cnn.com/US/9903/10/nuclear.secrets.02/

http://www.cnn.com/US/9903/06/us.china/

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1166.cfm




The Right:

Look out, China has a big army! The Democrats won't protect you, but we will. Don't vote for them, or China will get you!


More @#$%#$$@%#$#$%#$#@$%$#$%#$@#$%$#@$@%$$#@$%@$#%@#$@$%#$@#@$%$ Scare Tactics.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by wdlove
As for Clinton doing nothing illegal, a Federal Judge stated that he lied under oath. These articles below discuss his complicity in possible treasonous acts. Being a Democrat, with high approval ratings, Democrat Senate, & a split House saved him. Clinton was the 1st elected President to be impeached, they just didn't use the correct charge. The sex was a private matter & none of our business, only if it effected his ability to run the country would it matter. A disclaimer, the 4th article is not for those that are anti religion!

http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/1997/printer_33.shtml

http://www.cnn.com/US/9903/10/nuclear.secrets.02/

http://www.cnn.com/US/9903/06/us.china/

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1166.cfm

clinton was, to me, a good president in a secular sort of way but certainly the opposite of a jimmy carter, a born again christian who prayed openly in public and literally holds a quiet time with biblical verse every morning with his wife

jimmy carter was a disaster as a president, but is by most accounts, a much more moral man than clinton

that being said, i don't think clinton is the anti-christ or set out in an agenda against christianity or any other religion

internationalism is not the opposite of christianity or some hidden evil philosophy...the closest opposite to internationalism is the nazis of wwII and today

many of the religious extremists hated clinton and that is certainly their right, but at the same time, many of these people, including my employee, belong to a cult...without mentioning names, they go door to door and hold some very similar views to john ashcroft

christianity is neither right wing or left wing, it is spiritual...same goes with many other points of view and religions

but the christian identity movement, or the christain right, or hosts of many others are political movements or fronts and not interested in evangelism, but politics...some of the most extreme believers of the christian right....i said "some", are neo nazis or into racial purity...but in america, that is completely their right

our founding fathers, many of who were christians rebelling against a religious "right" wing party in england that went awry, believed in a separation of church and state for that reason

the possibility of a left wing movement shrouding itself as a message of a religion or religions is just as possible to come about and cause equal havoc

the bible college i went to, classes based and not degree conferring, was as close to politically neutral as possible and there were many republicans and democrats in the church and it was very rare that the messages of the american politicians on tv ever came up...christ was important, not democrats and republicans

many in the creationist movement are more interested in educational reform thru an attack on evolution...or really the over liberalism of american public education and the "fat" spent on them in waste...much of it funded by the democrats

i see that and i am a democrat

the bible does not put a specific date on the earth and few theologians and ministers and laypeople can agree to a date

historically, a very strong pope once suggested the earth was a few thousand years old and the current creationist movement has taken that as their battle cry

modern science and just the long recorded history of my race, asians, specifically chinese, show that that specific pope was wrong on the life of the earth issue...that does not make that pope evil...just misinformed

the church also believed in a flat earth and people were persecuted for believing otherwise...i am sure christ would not jail someone for believing the world was round

it could be a very dangerous precedent of a movement of largely white, largely republican, largely rich (the leaders) take christianity or any other religion into their own hands

that is what the church of england did over two hundred years ago and thus is the reason america was founded on the premise of separation of church and state (among other things, of course)

goodness, grace, and improvement can be had on an organization as large as the church of england and today, the church of england has no interest in manipulating the meanderings of america...and they are not mostly evil and corrupt now as our founding fathers thought of them

i was a missionary representing the inter varsity christian fellowship and yes, the anglican church so that was enough proof that a formerly highly politicized, evil church can reform

the problem in 1776 was that there was no differentiation between church and state in england and we can't let that happen again with a right wing, left wing, or centerist/populist christian movement

basically, in america, let politics be politics and religion be religion

now if somebody wants to start a thread on science/evolution/creationism, differences between the churches within the body of christ (denominations and independents), then that is fine

i am just afraid of a message that says, "you have to be a republican to be a "(insert religion here)"

excluding liberals to the joys of a religion(s) because of a current strong right wing flavor is wrong

at least for christianity, christ wanted everyone and anyone who would follow and take up the cross daily for him

rant over:D

[Les Kern]

His approval ratings are slipping, and are somewhere near 55%. But he will be re-elected because most american voters are sheep; too stupid or lazy to look past the sound bites the media feeds them. We'll get what we deserve, so all aboard the Bush Armageddon Express.
Don't EVER get me started talking about the likes of Rove, Ashcroft, Poindexter (!) and the other fundamentalist right-wing idiots. And by the way, this is a Mac forum isn't it? Not one of those mind-numbingly intolerant cretins would own one.
I certainly agree on a secular state... it's one of the keys to our success. Bush and his band evidently don't see the danger history has taught us (well, SOME of us I guess) on faith-based governments, or doesn't care. I'm not sure what scares me more.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by sturm375





The Right:

Look out, China has a big army! The Democrats won't protect you, but we will. Don't vote for them, or China will get you!


More @#$%#$$@%#$#$%#$#@$%$#$%#$@#$%$#@$@%$$#@$%@$#%@#$@$%#$@#@$%$ Scare Tactics.

that's the extreme right that says that

views of centrists/right of center macrumors posters like wdlove, backtothemac, and ovi have never said anything like that

and centrists/left of center people like me don't think "going red" is the way to save america

extremists on both sides are few and far between and not realists on this planet

and for anyone who thinks we are 100 percent capitalist or china is 100 percent communist have not been to either country

after my dad, a lifelong republican and business owner, went to china, he discovered just how business like and capitalist china really was compared to what america had told him in the years after wwII:D

[Les Kern]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sturm375





The Right:

Look out, China has a big army! The Democrats won't protect you, but we will. Don't vote for them, or China will get you!


More @#$%#$$@%#$#$%#$#@$%$#$%#$@#$%$#@$@%$$#@$%@$#%@#$@$%#$@#@$%$ Scare Tactics. [/QUOTE

Another fine example of what constitutes the sound-bite in modern american events. Roger Ebert, a quite intelligent man, spoke of this just after the 2000 election. He talked of "memes", that is, bits of info that said often enough become truth... in a way. How many times did you hear James Baker say "We counted, counted again and re-counted..."? Did anyone catch that they hadn't even finished counting the FIRST time? Not many. Soon that was the rallying cry of the GOP, and by golly it worked. The GOP under Rove are MASTERS of this. P. J. O'Rourke in his book "Eat the Rich" said "My being rich doesn't make you poor". At first I agreed fully. Hell, I have a nice job and a nice house. How DARE you get pissed at ME becasue you work at Wal-Mart. Until it dawned on me: He almost "memed" me! Sure, my being rich doesn't make you poor, but he never mentions how corporations (like Wal-Mart using the meme "associate") beat that poor man down, and our govt. does NOTHING to help. ("Should they help?" one may ask. Damned right, but that's for another thread) This is a great land and we have a great people, but until we start voting with our brains instead of eventually believing repetative sound bites, we will be consumed (enslaved?) by the intolerant GOP, and we'd deserve it because we DID NOTHING.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Les Kern
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sturm375





The Right:

Look out, China has a big army! The Democrats won't protect you, but we will. Don't vote for them, or China will get you!


More @#$%#$$@%#$#$%#$#@$%$#$%#$@#$%$#@$@%$$#@$%@$#%@#$@$%#$@#@$%$ Scare Tactics. [/QUOTE

Another fine example of what constitutes the sound-bite in modern american events. Roger Ebert, a quite intelligent man, spoke of this just after the 2000 election. He talked of "memes", that is, bits of info that said often enough become truth... in a way. How many times did you hear James Baker say "We counted, counted again and re-counted..."? Did anyone catch that they hadn't even finished counting the FIRST time? Not many. Soon that was the rallying cry of the GOP, and by golly it worked. The GOP under Rove are MASTERS of this. P. J. O'Rourke in his book "Eat the Rich" said "My being rich doesn't make you poor". At first I agreed fully. Hell, I have a nice job and a nice house. How DARE you get pissed at ME becasue you work at Wal-Mart. Until it dawned on me: He almost "memed" me! Sure, my being rich doesn't make you poor, but he never mentions how corporations (like Wal-Mart using the meme "associate") beat that poor man down, and our govt. does NOTHING to help. ("Should they help?" one may ask. Damned right, but that's for another thread) This is a great land and we have a great people, but until we start voting with our brains instead of eventually believing repetative sound bites, we will be consumed (enslaved?) by the intolerant GOP, and we'd deserve it because we DID NOTHING.

we learned a lot about limited resources in mba school

the teacher said we are in a lifeboat with limited spots...as a business leader who's self employed or in a corporation, you have to decide who lives and who dies...this from an mba professor who was a navy officer and submarine commander

we all can't be rich...someone needs to rule and others need to be the workers...making all income levels

but we all can't be the rich CEO and if people get mad at you, that comes with the territory

if you can't hang with all your money, think of donating some and doing some volunteer/charity work

in the city i live in south of silicon valley, a ton of rich people give their time and money because with great resources, inheritances, (and money) comes great resposibility

[ja0912]

I found it interesting that when I started reading this thread I was basically indifferent, but the more conservative posters alone have made me more worried that their views may be the majority in our country.

I find both parties pretty sleezy and think our election system has become such a football game. "Go Team! why? Because they're my team!"

Regardless, conservative views seem to go against the issues I really care about, at my core.

[etoiles]

I think it is great to have threads like this, open discussion is the only way to make progress in ANY society. I might not agree with every 'right of center' opinion, but it is still better than silence ;)

If only there could be more open debates in public...

[wdlove]

Debates are very healthy, its the American way!

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by ja0912
I found it interesting that when I started reading this thread I was basically indifferent, but the more conservative posters alone have made me more worried that their views may be the majority in our country.

I find both parties pretty sleezy and think our election system has become such a football game. "Go Team! why? Because they're my team!"

Regardless, conservative views seem to go against the issues I really care about, at my core.

at my core i am a democrat...vote that way 80 percent of the time

but prayer in school in the form of a moment of silence can't hurt

abortion should not be a form of birth control

and i don't think nativity scenes in a public park will kill anybody

my 2 cents

[Ovi]

11

[jefhatfield]

i hope china won't be our next biggest threat

they have nukes and it will be the cold war all over again...version 2

if there is a diplomatic way to avoid it, we should try...china could be in position to be the next superpower on this planet

the us has been the only superpower since the 80s and few here probably remember growing up in fear of the soviet threat and worldwide nuclear destruction

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by ja0912
I found it interesting that when I started reading this thread I was basically indifferent, but the more conservative posters alone have made me more worried that their views may be the majority in our country.



i believe the liberal views in this country like pro choice and medical reform are the majority view

but i think that higher percentages of conservative leaning people are more likely to vote than liberal leaning people

if everyone of legal age and citizenship status were forced to vote, the democrats would win every time...but that would lead to a one party system and that would definitely be bad

the factors since 1960 that have made the democrats win were swing voters in the middle and liberal republicans voting for the democrats

i don't think the democrats ever won an election on the strength of their "committment" to vote

i have never seen the democrats as good political organizers:p

[Ovi]

11

[jefhatfield]

ovi, since i am the owner of two businesses and i have two part time empployees that i care about...they are good friends

...then a strengthening economy resulting in a boom by 2003 or 2004 will give george bush my vote in 2004

i feel the number one issue for america right now is the economy as it has been in every year except for the years of wwI and wwII in this century where the war was most important

i voted reagan in 84, left slot blank in 88 due to no strong preference, clinton in 92/96, and gore in 2000...so it's possible i could vote for bush

bush is in a tough spot to make the economy good since he has that nagging loose end of both saddam hussein and osama bin laden

if he catches or deposes one or both and the economy remains even, then i may still vote for bush in 2004

i don't see bush trying anything that will be so radically right wing like overturn roe vs wade or dismantle americans with disabilities act enacted by bush sr., so i remain middle of the road with an open mind

i have to now that i am a business as well as a citizen so i can't just go with one candidate or another on just a whim or a single issue

being a christian, there are views that clinton had that sometimes seemed to be against the religion, but overall taking the good with the bad, i felt and still feel that clinton was the man for america in 92 and 96 and the only president to enjoy 6 good economic years out of 8 in two terms of office

reagan also had a similar record which was almost as strong

that is why reagan and clinton both won two terms

it's the economy

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Ovi


This country has more applicants to colleges than Europe, Canada and Australia combined. This is a perfect example why we continue to progress in every area.



take in context that the usa is not always the strongest in the sciences and math

my wife works with national level standardized testing and the us falls behind other developed nations in this area

being in high tech, i have seen a lot of good chinese computer scientists so if they became an enemy, it would really be a pain in the A$$

having gone to college here and in england, while we may have more schools than that country with huge college systems like suny, texas, and cal state universities; the level of scholarship in the few good schools in england is so far beyond anything in the us

think of it as our cadillacs (which are more numerous) vs the english bentley (which are not anywhere as common or successful) but a better quality car

i would never make this comparison unless i have studied in both places and got to mingle with students from both countires here and in england

note: i am not cutting down suny, texas, or cal state systems...they are like microsoft, oracle, and corel are to the software business respectively...big and respectable

but the english unversities like cambridge, oxford, and university of london are unmateched in the english speaking world as far as quality goes

[Ovi]

11

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Ovi
You are correct it is the economy.

However the war on terror and economy are very much related.

The economy has been affected by uncertainty in security. What I am talking about is not consumer spending as much as start up small business and investment by large companies. A president who works hard on this will be rewarded. I think Nov. 5 was a perfect example.

My perdiction is that once the Iraq war is behind us things will pick up .

However I should also mention that our country is still prospering a great deal with a majority of people relatively happy with where they are in their lives.

I am willing to bet that you will vote for Bush in 04. I have read reports from those who make a living in politics which show big strides in the coming years for Bush and republicans.

As for the rest of you, your view on life will change as you get older.

I

most people get more conservative as they get older

btw...how old are you if it's ok to ask?

...i am 39

at first it looked like we were going to invade iraq, no matter what

but i think the incredibly huge threat of force and deposition of power has made saddam think twice

if i were him, i would disarm

and when this is behind us, i hope the economy does gain strength

if it fails, fair or not, the voters will blame the president

[Ovi]

11

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Ovi


I am younger than you 32.

I have read hundred of pages on Saddam. I have talked with those who make a living keeping an eye on him. He will not give up. He sees himself as a martyr.

i see him as a survivor who really doesn't have a cause other than staying in power

if he was a martyr, he would have acted long ago

he is the classic tin horn dictator

[etoiles]

Originally posted by Ovi
Clinton got it partially right when he said in a time a crisis " It is better to be strong and wrong rather than weak and right." The reality is that those who view the world through limited information and utopian philosophies have in the past and will always be weak and wrong. It should surprise no one here that I view the conservative/republican position as strong and right. One needs to read history of the US to see this. The Cold War is a perfect example among many others.


You are right, and EVERY country fights to defend its own interests first. But currently the US uses a lot of its power to intimidate other countries, it is not doing much to improve its 'image' abroad by more positive actions. I sense a lack of balance...which is bad in the long run. Believe it or not, the US does not own the world yet...too many people hating the US is a real problem.

[sturm375]

Originally posted by Ovi
You are correct it is the economy.

However the war on terror and economy are very much related.

The economy has been affected by uncertainty in security. What I am talking about is not consumer spending as much as start up small business and investment by large companies. A president who works hard on this will be rewarded. I think Nov. 5 was a perfect example.

My perdiction is that once the Iraq war is behind us things will pick up .

However I should also mention that our country is still prospering a great deal with a majority of people relatively happy with where they are in their lives.

I am willing to bet that you will vote for Bush in 04. I have read reports from those who make a living in politics which show big strides in the coming years for Bush and republicans.

As for the rest of you, your view on life will change as you get older.

I

In the 2000 election, I debated long and hard who to vote for (Bush v. Gore). I really couldn't come up with any reason to vote for either one. I voted for Gore, just because generally speaking I prefer the Democrat's message compaired to Republicans.

That being said, since the Bush regime took office, I've had very little good to say about it. I won't re-interate all the civil rights Bush has trapeled. Just taking the economy (I am for free trade). Bush signed the Steel Tariff bill (caused several medium to large companies around here to close their doors). Signed the farm aid bill (180% increase over the previous year, 90% of the money goes to large corporations that own huge amounts of farmland, and are not in any way destitute). More recently subsidies for insurance companies, airlines, protection for large coporations who donated huge amount to his campaign.

Now I might be able to overlook these alone, however the list of grivences is not even close to an end with this. Bush Jr. will never receive my vote, and I will inform all my friends of Bush's character. They of course are free to make up their own mind, and I will certianly listen to any counterpoints, but I haven't heard any valid ones yet.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by e-coli
All I have to say is that we're living in a sad time for America.

No more Attorney Client privilege, no more protection from illegal search and seizure, no more right to due process or writ of habeas corpus, no more Congressional War Powers Act, no more Freedom of Information act (except when it comes to the government collecting information about you), an administration that has a horrendous (and quickly worsening) environmental record, oil drilling in national parks, bad economy, and high unemployment, on the verge of an unnecessary war...

For the love of God can you hear the propoganda out of your retoric? You sound like an attorney for Sadam. yes, there is Attorney client privlege, just not for enemy combatants. There is protection from illegal search and seizure, there is due process. the war Powers Act has never been invoked, so don't even quote that unconstitutional act anyway. Yes, we should drill for oil. Everywhere we have it and reduce our dependence on the middle east. There is a massive amount of oil in the artic areas. Some will say no, but those are the same wackos that think we should outlaw cars. The economy is not bad. This quarter is going to rock. Unemployment last quarter was at a 2 year low, and as far as unnecessary war.....

well, we will see if you think it is unecessary when Sadam gives Bin laden, or some other wacko small pox, mustard gas, nerve agents, or perhaps, hark a suitcase style nuke!

Look around you and see that we are at war. During times of war things change. Some liberty's get put on hold for the greater good. It isn't perminate and never has been, but it has always happened during times of war.

the problem today is that the majority of the left wing wackos want to whine and cry about it instead of doing their part for their country.

All of the Democratic senators wanted to get Sadam in 98, so what has changed? Nothing, except they are a lost party that has no place in the 21st century.

[Ovi]

11

[Ovi]

11

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by Ovi


Well said. We will have less democratic senators come January. You can count one more republican in Lousiana Terrell 52 - Landrieu 47 thanks to the terrible shape this country is in.:rolleyes:

Word, I don't know what is more insulting. That so many people have bought into this left wing freak show, or that they think the American people are really as stupid as they portait them.

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by Backtothemac

Tom "can't tell the truth" Daschle!


What is Tom Daschle lying about? I will see how you feel when I start to talk **** about your senator. Daschle has a 65% approval rating in this state, so unless he runs for President, which I see is unlikely at this time or he retires, he will be back for more years to come. Why do Republicans hate any Democrat that challenges their ideas and policies. Isn't that the whole freakin point of a two-party system?????????

It is funny I never understood why people from the states of Alabama and Mississippi are such Republican and think they are actually rich states. I have been through Mississippi, looks like Trent Lott has done a lot for those people...haha...yeah right...

[mcrain]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Look around you and see that we are at war. During times of war things change. Some liberty's get put on hold for the greater good. It isn't perminate and never has been, but it has always happened during times of war.

I really don't want to get into this debate, other than to say that the homeland security bill is permanent (so far as I can tell), as are the new investigation rights in that bill, and others, given to law enforcement.

[BenderBot1138]

Yea, high rating sounds like a death nail... who do you think our next President will be?

I wonder if the Republicans will try to have Powel run, given Bush's uncertain future?

Certainly Powel has a far better chance of competing than Bush next election.

:cool:

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy


What is Tom Daschle lying about? I will see how you feel when I start to talk **** about your senator. Daschle has a 65% approval rating in this state, so unless he runs for President, which I see is unlikely at this time or he retires, he will be back for more years to come. Why do Republicans hate any Democrat that challenges their ideas and policies. Isn't that the whole freakin point of a two-party system?????????

It is funny I never understood why people from the states of Alabama and Mississippi are such Republican and think they are actually rich states. I have been through Mississippi, looks like Trent Lott has done a lot for those people...haha...yeah right...

OMG he is a friggin turd! He waves loggin laws in your state so that they can be successful, but is against it in any other state! He trys the same ole democrat mindset of mediscare, and welscare, and lies that perpetuate the democratic party today. They don't want people to be successful, they want to oppress people through social programs that will make them more dependent on the government. Tax everyone except the people that keep electing them. Real honest wouldn't you say.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


OMG he is a friggin turd! He waves loggin laws in your state so that they can be successful, but is against it in any other state! He trys the same ole democrat mindset of mediscare, and welscare, and lies that perpetuate the democratic party today. They don't want people to be successful, they want to oppress people through social programs that will make them more dependent on the government. Tax everyone except the people that keep electing them. Real honest wouldn't you say.

i think both parties want to have successful americans...it just comes down to technique

the democrats believe in a powerful central government regulating corporate behavior, trade and laws

the republicans believe that putting the money in the hands of the rich will create more jobs and the wealth will trickle down

while i find neither basic concept of the traditional party lines perfect, i don't trust a small percentage of the wealthy to "share" the wealth

toward the end of the 80s and early 90s, the wealthy hoarded the wealth and thus caused the recession which made it easy for the democrats to come in for two terms

for my money, i will take the democrats but with checks and balances of a two party system with alternative parties on the ticket

[Backtothemac]

Well, I believe in helping people that really need help. Lets face it we all do from time to time, however, I do not believe that the government should take 40% of my income to give to others. My tax dollars should pay for defense, and some domestic plans. However, I have come from nothing, to make a life for myself, and no one gave me that. I earned it. That is why I am anti big government.

[wdlove]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Well, I believe in helping people that really need help. Lets face it we all do from time to time, however, I do not believe that the government should take 40% of my income to give to others. My tax dollars should pay for defense, and some domestic plans. However, I have come from nothing, to make a life for myself, and no one gave me that. I earned it. That is why I am anti big government.

Thankfully more Americans are coming to the same conclusion you have. The Constitution is on our side. Liberals like to expand its meaning, that's why your paying 40%.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by wdlove


Thankfully more Americans are coming to the same conclusion you have. The Constitution is on our side. Liberals like to expand it meaning, that's why your paying 40%.

Exactly! Taking my money that I earn for social security and medicare, and medicaid is violating my rights.

talk about seizure of personal property!

Hell, the old folks that we feel sorry for that Gore claims can't buy drugs, is the richest part of our society. My parents make over 120,000 a year and yet my dad gets over 16,000 a year in social security just because he paid into it and he is over 65. Does he need it? Hell no!

Social security is a joke, and it always will be. it is just another failed liberal agenda.

[wdlove]

We've aleady had a Social Security Commission. Its time to take action. The time is right the Bush Administration & Congress should act within the next 1 1/2 years, prior '04 & end bipartisan.

[sturm375]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Well, I believe in helping people that really need help. Lets face it we all do from time to time, however, I do not believe that the government should take 40% of my income to give to others. My tax dollars should pay for defense, and some domestic plans. However, I have come from nothing, to make a life for myself, and no one gave me that. I earned it. That is why I am anti big government.

Anti-big government, right;)

Both Dems, and Repubs expand government, both in size and influence. Who inititiated, and pushed the 2nd bigest increase in government ever (homeland security)?

You want small government, with a strong military, you ought to check out the Libritarian party.

[Backtothemac]

Um, no on the libertarian thing. The republicans will increase government agencies, only when necessary.

Social programs though are the main problems with the dems.

[etoiles]

Originally posted by Ovi


You are partially correct. Here is what you need to back up the area you are correct about. http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=165

I agree the US does not own the world yet.


Thanks for the link, some pretty incredible data...


However, I must stress that despite a minority who does not like Bush or the US, it does little to slow down the tide in the opposite direction.


Not sure I totally understand: you mean the pro Bush movement in the US ? Because the survey you pointed at states that the US image slips...


What do you consider more positive actions by the US?. We give over 100 billion to the world. We still have the biggest immigration problem in the world.


What do you mean by 'give to the world' ? What is the nature of the 100 billions (foreign aid, foreign investments...)? I have read that in 2001 only 0.1% of the the government's budget was destined to foreign aid (The Times, dec 17th 2001) ...as for immigration: it is what the country is based on, right (how many real native americans are there) ? It is also one of the big strenghts of the country, for example to attract the best and brightest scientists from all around the world. And an economic tool as I have witnessed it first hand in the Silicon Valley: highly skilled tech people can work on non-immigrant visas, pay taxes and full social security, but have to leave the country when the economy slows down, they don't get any social security in return...anyway, oops, different topic.


I don't consider intimidation when I tell you that unless you stop kicking me I am not going to play with you anymore.

Well, when the president of a country says: 'you are either with us, or against us', then that sounds pretty intimidating to me, especially when he is backed by the strongest army on earth. When you know that this country also has a pretty active secret service, then you might want to be a bit careful. Another strong argument is its economic power. 'If you keep up health laws that American food products don't pass, we'll tax your foodproducts upon import even more', 'you don't buy our genetically modified seeds, we don't buy your produce' etc...
Of course, there is also the 'more positive' attitude of: 'you let this US company build that pipeline, we let you be the talibans', 'you guarantee our economic interests in the region, we don't mind you torture people in your prisons', 'you fight people who stand in our way, we give you weapons' etc...

I think it is more like: I am playing with you, if you like it or not. And don't you dare to kick me, I will defend myself.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Exactly! Taking my money that I earn for social security and medicare, and medicaid is violating my rights.

talk about seizure of personal property!

Ok, I'm trying to remain out of this, but again, I have to point out that in prior discussions, both here and elsewhere, I have pointed out that the biggest powers that the government has under the constitution are the power to tax and the power to spend. Those powers allow the government to tax you at incredibly high rates (well above 40%) without there being any unlawful seizure of property. Furthermore, because the government has the power to spend, it has the power to spend its money on just about anything, including medicare, medicaid, social security, the military, police, salaries of government employees, etc... There is nothing about taxing or spending that violates your rights. Certainly, the choices regarding taxing and spending affect you, me and everyone else, but those choices aren't a violation of the constitution. So, if you disagree with the choices made regarding taxation and spending, you are far better off arguing the relative merits of the different choices rather than arguing that your rights have been violated. BTTM, I know a lot of your arguments have merit, and you do a pretty good job of reasoning and explaining your positions. The argument that you've had your personal property unlawfully siezed does nothing but erode your credibility. Other than that, I agree with you regarding the prescription drug benefits issue and social security.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
There is a massive amount of oil in the artic areas. Some will say no, but those are the same wackos that think we should outlaw cars.

rush.... rush limbaugh? is that you?

damn backdawg, you take the fact that the environment is in **** shape and going down, you see the people who want to increase fuel efficiency and limit fuel inefficient cars, and you take that to mean that these people don't believe we should have cars?

come on man.

sure, i believe that cars should be used less. and that building should be better planned to promote other forms of transportation. however, i wouldn't say that cars should be done away with.

your extremism on that point is gross. ahhhh

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Um, no on the libertarian thing. The republicans will increase government agencies, only when necessary.

Social programs though are the main problems with the dems.

i am a former employee of two big agencies that seem to get bigger when the republicans are in...cia and department of defense (but i cannot really find a link on party spending on the first one and i think they like to keep it that way...especially the nsa...i don't think anybody knows who spends more on them...i knew that coopers and lybrand used to do their auditing and i am sure they are loyal enough as a big acct. firm and won't just toss out the info to the washington post ;)

so the GOP do have their pet projects that are expensive, too

another one is tax cuts, but that isn't a specific government department, but it does cut into the government's money that could be used for other things

i have already met people whose refund checks from uncle sam have been "lost" or late from last year

i have the impression that the GOP talks more about cutting government spending than they actually do...what happened to our surplus?

the GOP talks anti-deficit jargon but the last three GOP presidents have outspent jimmy carter in real dollars/adjusted

the libertarians are gaining steam and seem to draw votes from the old line GOP who were truly small government who like to take a narrow view of the constitution

individual rights and small government is the libertarian party...not the GOP of today

the laissez-faire GOP of yesterday was truly small government, but the GOP today has become a chameleon with a pseudo pro chritianity, psuedo working man's party approach, and has done this to get middle of the road voters...and to their credit, it has worked as 2000 and 2002 has shown

the democrats moved to the right and became more pro business and gained the white house in 92 and 96 with this usually republican technique

things could change over time

in the 1860s, the GOP was the liberal party and the dems were the party of the south and the conservatives

a hundred years later, the dems started losing ground in the south even though the voters stayed loyal to the dixie party

but dixie party lost all bets when the GOP captured the region for good

working class people and minorities, while once a sure bet never to vote GOP, are going there in larger and larger numbers

yuppies, since the term became really popular in the early 80s, have overwhelmingly been democrats, not GOP as they would have voted in the FDR days had their been such a thing

and college educated people tend towards the democrats more than the GOP which would have been the opposite a generation ago

this all means that one day the working people's party could one day be the liberal GOP and the rich, educated, and privelidged will go with the conservative democrats looking more like the hunts and kennedys

the day colin powell becomes president is the day that the democrats will never be able to to "rely" on the african american vote as a "sure" thing

politics is a shifting organism independent of what any one person can do to manipulate it

[mcrain]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
politics is a shifting organism independent of what any one person can do to manipulate it

You don't even want to know what I thought you typed! :)

[Ovi]

11

[wdlove]

Now that Bush has a Republican Congress he can move his agenda forward, that's what many Americans voted for November 5th. With a new economic team real tax reform can occur. One suggestion tax day & election day should occure on the same day then more Americans would realizes what their vote does.

http://money.cnn.com/2002/12/06/news/oneill/index.htm

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by wdlove
Now that Bush has a Republican Congress he can move his agenda forward, that's what many Americans voted for November 5th. With a new economic team real tax reform can occur. One suggestion tax day & election day should occure on the same day then more Americans would realizes what their vote does.

http://money.cnn.com/2002/12/06/news/oneill/index.htm

I think this is a great thing. Now we have one party in total control of our lives. I think it would be awesome to see the Democratic party fold as we know it and only have Republicans with a very conservative agenda. Clean up and get rid of everyone who does not wave a bible and anyone who does not live the life that John Ashcroft believes in. Jerry Fallwell can take over the new office of Homeland Religion, and jail all the queers.

I am being sarcastic of course. The reason is because most Democrats believe in Democracy and debating views from each side. Most Republicans are in favor of no opposition and would rather have a one party system, where ideas cannot be debated. This of course is only my opinion, but I believe that everyone deserves to express their feelings.

[Les Kern]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Social programs though are the main problems with the dems.

Problem? See, this is why I switched parties. I was a staunch republican (or so I thought!) up until a few years ago. I had an epiphany that (and I know you don't know me) was quite amazing.
One of the reasons I switched (but by NO means the ONLY reason), was that I saw the general belief in the writings and speeches of the GOP indicating a view of the world that is black and white. I don't mean race relations, but rather that there is no shade of gray in everything from education to the death penalty and most importantly in the social programs you probably speak of. From there I investigated my own feeling about our governments responsability in caring for our people. The GOP, as a rule (and maybe an over-simplification to be honest), believe that opportunity is everywhere, and that all have real access to it (one thing from the 2000 platform). Nothing could be further from the truth. As I mentioned earlier, as a side bar, in a quote from P. J. O'Rourke, that "Me being rich doesn't make you poor". Sounds pretty reasonable. But what main-stream republicans ALWAYS forget or choose to ignore is the impact of unscrupulous, powerful people (of whom there LOTS of) beating the less-powerful folk down. Look at Enron. Wait... look at Wal-Mart. Look at the stories coming out (If the for-profit, sound-bite oriented media decides to publish it) of the welfare issues cropping up because of various state's STUPID plans. And look at the history of the Bush family. I mean REALLY look, and from all angles and from both "sides". How can any sane person deny this? And why CAN'T we all work as one? Why can't we help folks, and if lazy bastards take advantage of it, so what? Denying all denies the truly needy. For God's sake, can't we drop the "survival of the fittest" elitist attitude we have in this country? Can't we rise above the sum of our parts? We can, but it's too hard. I'm white, I'm rich, but I refuse to be a part of the self-serving "chosen ones".

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Les Kern

can't we drop the "survival of the fittest" elitist attitude we have in this country? Can't we rise above the sum of our parts? We can, but it's too hard. I'm white, I'm rich, but I refuse to be a part of the self-serving "chosen ones".

survival of the fittest is fine for darwin and the gop

my lord is jesus christ and not darwin and thus, for me, i am a democrat because i can't belong to a party that represents one small faction of society and not the common people

the dems, while not perfect and at times black and white in their views, is a compromise for me but i will take them over the republicans any day...especially with the fake religious bent that the gop has

i see bush bent on blowing up iraq but never saying he will pray over the situation

iraq's god is also our god, too

[etoiles]

Originally posted by Ovi

The data is quite large but from a brief overview I gathered a couple of conclusions. In Europe yes US image is slipping, but that is not surprising if you see the history of the French in particular.

In Canda 51% don't approve of American ideas being exported to the world. But 82% like American music, culture, and movies. You tell me if that makes any sense.


It does make sense, I can listen to middle-eastern music in my car an not agree with islamic extremists...People can listen to east coast rap and enjoy hollywood movies but not agree with American foreign policies.


Those who argue that politics, oil, and poverty is the root cause of terror. Yet look at the approval ratings for the US coming out of Africa which is full of oil, plenty of politics and more poor than anyother continent. I have seen many more terrorist coming from the Middle East than Africa, for the exception of a few muslims in Kenya.


It does not mean that terrorists will automatically emerge under these conditions, you still need to add the 'fanatics' factor. Usually, an excuse through religion (any religion, really). I am not saying that religion is bad, it is just sometimes misused to blind people...or have people blind themselves.


Please review simple economics. You try to help increase commerce and national prosperity of countries by investing in their economies. This is true for most of the middle east, even Iraq at one time. When those countries don't do enough to reign in their terrorist groups and actually support and harbor them, then your relationship starts to change. This does not happen overnight.


Investing in a country usually means that you expect a profit in return. This can be a win-win situation and should be a good thing in theory, but if you look at how it is handled 'in the real world', it is often very unilateral ("we create this cash crop in your country, but you buy our machines...and no, we are not going to open up our market for your other produce"). In third world developing countries, investments are mainly used to acquire assets or resources, hardly for sustainable development.


Everytime I think back at Sept 11, and think of the countless lives that were lost, I have no problem with Bush's statement of being with us or gainst us. You do and that is why your views are in the minority in this country.


Well, Sept 11 was the biggest tragedy in the western world in my lifetime. I was shocked when it happened, and felt great anger and hate...like everybody around me (and I think most people in the world, everybody was 'with' America for a moment). But that does not mean that the whole world should drop their agendas and do whatever the US wants to do. There is between 500 and 1000 people murdered in the streets of LA every year, that does not give the police the right to control everybodys life...
And speaking of 'countless lives', do you know how many 'innocent' civilians died/are going to die during bombings in Afghanistan, Iraq or any other 'wars against terrorism' ? More than died on Sept 11 in the US...Sept 11 cannot become an excuse for reckless foreign policy... And don't give me a 'they started it', the US has not been all that innocent in the past...and present.


Your last statement is very well put and I don't see that as intimidation at all.

You are right, it is not intimidation, I think the technical term is 'rape'.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Ovi


Well said. We will have less democratic senators come January. You can count one more republican in Lousiana Terrell 52 - Landrieu 47 thanks to the terrible shape this country is in.:rolleyes:

other way around..the dems won that runoff and with a liberal/moderate independent that makes it 51 to 49, hardly a strong lead for the next two years

not to mention two major cabinet level resignations this week from the president's staff

W has a long road ahead of him if he wants to keep his numbers in the mid-60s range for the time ahead of him

[wdlove]

The Democrat Party has no bragging rights with the 52% Landrieu victory on Saturday. Lousiana is 40%. Democrats are 2/3 of the voters in LA a greater margin than MA. She had to lie to get elected. She went into the conservative white Catholic areas & said how she had backed Bush. The she would go to the Black areas and say that she was one of them, supporting their Liberal ideals.

The Republicans have nothing to fear, Lousiana election no model for the national election in 2004!