Microsoft Digital Hub

[MacRumors]

News.com (http://news.com.com/2100-1023-978093.html?tag=fd_top) reports that Microsoft is taking cues from Apple's digital hub strategy with its own "Microsoft Plus Digital Media Edition" to be introduced on Tuesday.


"This raises the water for tens of millions of PC users," said Richard Doherty, president of research firm Envisioneering Group. "It's a way for them to get some of the flavor and sizzle of a full media center PC from Hewlett-Packard or Gateway without buying a new PC. Even if they bought a Pentium 3 or 4 computer, this will bring them a lot closer to the ease of use of, say, the iMac."

The software package, which will sell for $19.95 contains added features beyond Apple's current offerings.

[Tue12]

MSFT couldn't find an original idea of its own if it shat on its face.

(and no, that's not a typo :D )

[Wes]

This isn't news.com this is history.com! Microsoft has been doing this for years. Sadly their products never have the apple user feeling. I'm sure you guys what I'm talking about ;)

[jholzner]

I think it's a nice try by Microsoft but I don't think it will matter much. One of the reasons Apple's Digital Hub strategy works so well is their complete control over the hardware and software. That's what makes the integration between the different iApps and external devices work so flawlessly. Also, I think Apple has a better idea of what people really want instead of just a bunch of junk that no one will ever really use. I doubt Microsoft could pull off something like iSync that works as well as Apple's version (although I hear it's not too great...but it's still in beta). Also, the article notes that Movie Maker 2.0 will be released on Jan. 7. That's the same day as Job's keynote at MWSF...I'm hoping that iMovie 3.0 will come out and kick some major ASS!! and put the newly released Movie Maker years behind on it's first day of release!

[Chisholm]

blah, blah, blah.


(sorry SunBaked):p

[MDA]

WHO CARES?!

MDA

[shadowfax]

well, ok, but this is part of competition. granted, the story is always that apple has a great idea and MS steals it and makes more with it, but that is part of the market. this forces apple to come up with something better. i like that a lot. if apple weren't pressured, progress would slow. now maybe they will have to hurry on iTunes 4.

[adamcoop]

The software also includes features for people to host a digital music "party" on the PC. Called Plus Party mode, the technology provides a password-protected environment for people to mix collections of music, add visual effects or an interactive guest book.

The answer to a question nobody asked.

[dantec]

It's a real shame.. Although apple is in the lead know, MS will eventually catch up and surpass them. And people of the future will say : "remember the day when Microsoft annoced the Digital Hub..."

I really hate ms more now than ever ! apple needs to cut off Office v.X for mac and make Appleworks 7 on both markets, a version that can actually do something ! Apple should also make Appleworks 7 95/98 compatible, cause ms has locked out those users with newer versions of office.

[dantec]

Originally posted by adamcoop
The software also includes features for people to host a digital music "party" on the PC. Called Plus Party mode, the technology provides a password-protected environment for people to mix collections of music, add visual effects or an interactive guest book.

The answer to a question nobody asked.

guestbook on a PC... how sad... how am I going to digitally sign ? By typing my name ? MS logic...

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by W-_-W
This isn't news.com this is history.com! Microsoft has been doing this for years. Sadly their products never have the apple user feeling. I'm sure you guys what I'm talking about ;)

Official Word... (http://www.macrumors.com/downloads/gates.mov)

:cool:

[adamcoop]

Originally posted by dantec


guestbook on a PC... how sad... how am I going to digitally sign ? By typing my name ? MS logic...

No, you'd type something original, that no one had thought of before... How un-microsoft.

[dantec]

Originally posted by adamcoop


No, you'd type something original, that no one had thought of before... How un-microsoft.

Yeah.. and after you type it, you would have to accept 3 license agreements giving away your home, car & life to microsoft.

[adamcoop]

...mix collections of music...

How does this fit in with Palladium and the whole 'copying music is bad' thing?

[RogueLdr]

Originally posted by dantec
It's a real shame.. Although apple is in the lead know, MS will eventually catch up and surpass them. And people of the future will say : "remember the day when Microsoft annoced the Digital Hub..."

I really hate ms more now than ever ! apple needs to cut off Office v.X for mac and make Appleworks 7 on both markets, a version that can actually do something ! Apple should also make Appleworks 7 95/98 compatible, cause ms has locked out those users with newer versions of office.

Agree with you completely on the Office/Appleworks angle.

As for the first part, about the MS surpassing of Apple, I hope my sarcasm early warning system is malfunctioning...:confused:

[bdkennedy1]

We don't have to pay for this stuff in OS X

[adamcoop]

Originally posted by bryank1
We don't have to pay for this stuff in OS X

That's a good point

However

HP, Dell and others will probably throw it in for free, and market their machines as the most wonderful home movie making computers in the world.

And the idiots will buy it.

[RogueLdr]

Originally posted by adamcoop
...mix collections of music...

How does this fit in with Palladium and the whole 'copying music is bad' thing?

Probably under Zero Conf, which Apple is calling Rendezvous. Although MS will probably call it "Microsoft We're the First to do This XP ":rolleyes:.

RL

[dsamsa]

Micro$oft WinBlows will probably crash the moment you load this crap. Fuçk M$!

[adamcoop]

Originally posted by dsamsa
Micro$oft WinBlows will probably crash the moment you load this crap. Fuçk M$!

Angry, angry young man.

While I agree with you, have used OS 9 lately?

[springscansing]

Originally posted by adamcoop


Angry, angry young man.

While I agree with you, have used OS 9 lately?

I use OS 9 every day for audio work, and it never crashes. Sure OMS is a jerk sometimes, but other than that, it's solid. 9.2.2 is the OS of gods I tell you!

[iwantanewmac]

Originally posted by adamcoop


Angry, angry young man.

While I agree with you, have used OS 9 lately?

There we go again......
I bet you wanted to say it's not stable.... bah
I still use it every day 24/7. and no crashes.
oops off topic.
I just can't stand "I hate OS9" whiners or
Micro$oft. Bah
Positive thing is that M$ will nevr bring out something that actually works as it is meant to work.
Only APPLE succeeds there.

[adamcoop]

Originally posted by iwantanewmac


There we go again......
I bet you wanted to say it's not stable.... bah
I still use it every day 24/7. and no crashes.
oops off topic.
I just can't stand "I hate OS9" whiners or
Micro$oft. Bah
Positive thing is that M$ will nevr bring out something that actually works as it is meant to work.
Only APPLE succeeds there.

Acrobat, now there's a product that crashes regardless of whether it's used on OS 9 or X.

Out of interest, what programs are you using 24/7?

[skunk]

This is very interesting from the CD copying point of view: where does MS stand now? What price copy-protection?

[adamcoop]

Originally posted by skunk
This is very interesting from the CD copying point of view: where does MS stand now? What price copy-protection?

Perhaps you can only share songs for which you have a receipt, a 16 digit serial number (generated by Microsoft), and a letter from the band.

[skunk]

Sounds about right!:rolleyes:
But seriously, to have MS weighing in against copy-protection would make a major difference.

[adamcoop]

So what would people like to see in the iApp range come Jan. 7 to beat off any Microsoft 'Digital Hub' products?

[mykuki]

isn`t that entertainment center just another word for things microsoft is already doing? i mean, what did you expect? ..."cool music app? ah no, apple did that..."

this step is just natural, and by this point it doesn't mean anything.
and please stop always saying microsoft only steals ideas. maybe they do, but i would as well if the other side was as impressive as apple with itunes-ipod, imovie, etc.
only because the apple guys seem smarter and faster it doesn't automatically make competioners give up. who of you expected microsoft to leave the entertainment market to apple? what would you in a bill gates`position do? would you know a totally different approach to a computer that fits the needs of people who just bought a digital camcorder, mp3-player or whatever?

i agree with those who see that only this will bring us more itools, better itools and at least faster macs. (maybe even cheaper macs)

and i don't think this news article necessarily does not fit microsoft's way to copy-protected media. first step for that would be to offer apps that allow you to use these files (at least play them). windows-whatever can't just suddenly come up with a blue box saying "can't open file... .mp3 unknown file-type".

even microsoft wouldn`t.

just keep cool everyone. we're on the bright side, don't we?

[Dunepilot]

Originally posted by iwantanewmac


There we go again......
I bet you wanted to say it's not stable.... bah
I still use it every day 24/7. and no crashes.
oops off topic.
I just can't stand "I hate OS9" whiners or
Micro$oft. Bah
Positive thing is that M$ will nevr bring out something that actually works as it is meant to work.
Only APPLE succeeds there.

While I agree with you that the "I hate OS9" idiots are a cancer in the mac community, I must say that as a full-time OS 9 user I get really hacked off with the fact that it crashes at least twice a day. And yes, I do have it set up correctly.

I'm moving to OS X as soon as my new machine arrives this week although i'll still be booting into OS 9 every now for recording purposes. I won't miss the force-restarts.

[e-coli]

"This raises the water for tens of millions of PC users," said Richard Doherty, president of research firm Envisioneering Group. "It's a way for them to get some of the flavor and sizzle of a full media center PC from Hewlett-Packard or Gateway without buying a new PC. Even if they bought a Pentium 3 or 4 computer, this will bring them a lot closer to the ease of use of, say, the iMac."

...all you have to do is install the drivers. :eek: :D :rolleyes:

[skunk]

Originally posted by e-coli
oil is the true benefactor to terrorism

urge your compatriots to be less profligate in their consumption of energy...:rolleyes:

[ibjoshua]

Maybe Microsoft is scared of Marklar?

i_b_joshua

[e-coli]

Originally posted by skunk


urge your compatriots to be less profligate in their consumption of energy...:rolleyes:

i agree with you. but everyone on earth uses oil. everyone. we need an alternative energy source that isn't directly tied to the middle east. oil does fund terrorism.

[Mr. Anderson]

Keep on topic here, the oil/mid east talk should be handled in another thread.

I think it was just a matter of time before MS tried to counter Apple's Digital Hub - they have to see it as the future of personal computing as well. A little competition is a good thing. And I'll be very interested in seeing the software in action when it comes out.

D

[mykuki]

Originally posted by e-coli


i agree with you. but everyone on earth uses oil. everyone. we need an alternative energy source that isn't directly tied to the middle east. oil does fund terrorism.

this is not the right place for that. anyway i just couldn't leave that unanswered: the reason for terrorism is definetely not that some sheiks do not know how to spend their money in a more peaceful way.

what you're saying is that keeping certain countries from earning money will stop terrorism. this is so stupid and sad that i just thought i'd have to tell you.

maybe terrorism is supported by money made in oil, but saying oil is funding terrorism is not the same! yes we need energy alternatives, for a little different reasons though.

back to microsofts great invention now everyone.

[rugby]

Keep the oil out of this thread.

The problem with Apple is they market a digital hub strategy yet fail to complete the whole picture. They don't have decent sound-out, they can't play .divx files properly without running another app to validate them.

I want to know what a digital hub really is, if you look at avsforums.com and at their digital hubs they specifically DON'T recommend a Mac because of the shortcomings of the hardware.

Apple needs some serious beefups not just cpu-wise in order to compete in the market it started.

[jayscheuerle]

Microsoft is like the geek that shows up late to the party with mismatched socks and tries to impress the ladies with his PDA that he can't get to work while dropping his cell in the punch bowl as he knocks over a lamp. Everybody looks at him trying so desperately hard while miserably failing and just wishes he would leave...

[tgrundke]

What is so shocking to me is the sheer arrogance on part of the members of this group.

The first dozen thread replies consisted of phrases such as, "MSFT couldn't find an original idea of its own if it shat on its face." Or: "I think it's a nice try by Microsoft but I don't think it will matter much." Or: "blah, blah, blah." Or: "WHO CARES?!"

These comments underscore the very attitude that has gotten Apple into the position it is in today. Trace the Apple snobbishness to 1977 and you will see the root of all today's troubles. If you think that Microsoft's moves are irrelevant, unoriginal, 'blah' or otherwise unimportant, you belong to the Apple of 20 years ago.

Start accepting the massive juggernaut we are up against as a legitimate competitor and deal with it directly, not in some juvenile passive-aggressive way. Who owns 95% of the market?

Grow up.

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by tgrundke
Who owns 95% of the market?


And this has what to do with having original ideas? Surely you don't think that number has anything to do with innovative products? The legitimacy of Microsoft's competition has little to do with the quality of their products.

Do you understand better now? :cool:

[Thirteenva]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle


And this has what to do with having original ideas? Surely you don't think that number has anything to do with innovative products? The legitimacy of Microsoft's competition has little to do with the quality of their products.

Do you understand better now? :cool:


jayscheuerle

I think i understand what tgrundke is trying to say. I think he's saying that we sit here and say "who cares" and "its crap" just because we know Apple makes better products. The problem however is that our dismissive attitude is not going to help apples cause. We need to better understand what MS is doing to better educate people to understand that their product is not superior despite their large market share.

We sometimes live in a bubble here and forget that some people don't even realize apple exists as a legitimate alternative.


These people are easily fooled by such things as MS introducing a digital hub. They'll be the people that in 5 years will say "remember how MS revolutionized computing with the digital hub stategy".

I think what tgrundke is saying is that we can't just dismiss this stuff with "who cares" we need to see it as a legitmate competitor to the mac despite the macs superiority and educate people otherwise. In order to win a debate one must be familiar with both sides. How can we argue the macs superiority if we don't want to take the time to see what the competition offers.

I think thats what he meant :D

And if not , then thats what i make of things ;)

[tgrundke]

Jayscheuerle: I think you just validated my point with your response.

Instead of poo-pooing Microsoft's competitiveness, we should take the threat honestly and work to counter it. Stop wasting time mocking and start working - that's my point.

Apple spends far too much time patting itself of the back. You and I and everyone else here may not have much respect for Dell and the way they do business, but they are unrelenting sons-of-bitches who at the end of the day come out on top. I wish to God I would see that aggressiveness in Apple that can place us where Dell is today in the marketplace.

Originally posted by jayscheuerle


And this has what to do with having original ideas? Surely you don't think that number has anything to do with innovative products? The legitimacy of Microsoft's competition has little to do with the quality of their products.

Do you understand better now? :cool:

[iwantanewmac]

Originally posted by adamcoop


Acrobat, now there's a product that crashes regardless of whether it's used on OS 9 or X.

Out of interest, what programs are you using 24/7?

On 1machine I only use audio apps, including protools with digi 001. NEVER crashes.
1 machine mainly used for internetting and gaming.
And 1 for running servers.

[tgrundke]

Thirteenva:

You've hit the nail right on the head.

The dismissive attitude of Apple supporters is often Apple's greatest double-edged sword. Apple has learned a LOT by paying close attention to competitors like Microsoft in software and Dell in manufacturing and logistics. Apple would never have paid attention to such things before.

We dismiss Windows as "crap" and Windows users as "dumb", and yet many Macintosh users in these forums have little fundamental understanding of why people are happy with their Wintel machines and won't move to Macs in droves.

As an IT consultant I can give reason after reason after reason why 99% of people will *not* switch, and sadly, in many cases it is like a bad relationship: there's just too much history and momentum to break the bond for a greater fear of the unknown. Sounds silly, but for many it is legitimate.

Ever had to work with your 'basic' office paper-pushers? Just moving them from Windows 98 to XP was like forcing them to convert religions. Moving 175 people to Macintosh would be a shift of plate-tectonic proportions.

These are small examples, but I am trying to impress upon everyone that we cannot afford to be dismissive: that is what got us into the position we are in today. Many of Steve Jobs' rather immature decisions made in the early 1980s still haunt us today.

Know thy enemy - no better words were spoken.

Originally posted by Thirteenva



jayscheuerle

I think i understand what tgrundke is trying to say. I think he's saying that we sit here and say "who cares" and "its crap" just because we know Apple makes better products. The problem however is that our dismissive attitude is not going to help apples cause. We need to better understand what MS is doing to better educate people to understand that their product is not superior despite their large market share.

We sometimes live in a bubble here and forget that some people don't even realize apple exists as a legitimate alternative.


These people are easily fooled by such things as MS introducing a digital hub. They'll be the people that in 5 years will say "remember how MS revolutionized computing with the digital hub stategy".


I think what tgrundke is saying is that we can't just dismiss this stuff with "who cares" we need to see it as a legitmate competitor to the mac despite the macs superiority and educate people otherwise. In order to win a debate one must be familiar with both sides. How can we argue the macs superiority if we don't want to take the time to see what the competition offers.

I think thats what he meant :D

And if not , then thats what i make of things ;)

[digital1]

Hey where did that movie file come from? I htink it is cool and I wanted to put it up on my site. Who is responsible for it? Who can I get permission from?

~Digital1


Originally posted by BenderBot1138


Official Word... (http://www.macrumors.com/downloads/gates.mov)

:cool:

[tgrundke]

Oh, for the love of God, kids.

The debate over whose computer crashes more/less often is so pathetic it makes my head swim.

In normal day-to-day use the Win2000 machines we have deployed crash about as much as my OS X box loaded up with all kinds of crap that I just should not be messing around with.

Point is: Configurations and use differ and no computer (well...true UNIX aside) is 'crashless'. But in the majority of cases, for those who just boot, check mail, type and browse, they won't be blue-screening or kernel panicking all that frequently.
Originally posted by iwantanewmac


On 1machine I only use audio apps, including protools with digi 001. NEVER crashes.
1 machine mainly used for internetting and gaming.
And 1 for running servers.

[tgrundke]

Hee hee, if Apple really wanted to get snarky, they'd run that video clip as one of their "Switchers" ads. That's a good one. ;-)

QUOTE]Originally posted by digital1
Hey where did that movie file come from? I htink it is cool and I wanted to put it up on my site. Who is responsible for it? Who can I get permission from?

~Digital1


[/QUOTE]

[jayscheuerle]

Yes, Microsoft is a legitimate competitor, not because of their ability to create great products, but for their financial position that enables them to spend oodles of money copying products and then using the monopoly entrypoint of their OS to force such products upon users. They can buy-out patents, take over companies.... but the one thing they can't do is lead. They try to strike out in as many directions as possible (and strike out they do). Keep an eye on the TabletPC that will never catch on. They are decent copiers, but don't have the finesse to avoid tossing in the kitchen sink & creating bloatware.

Beware of Microsoft, but not of their ideas...

- my apologies for my arrogant tone.:)

[JoseyWales]

"This raises the water for tens of millions of PC users," said Richard Doherty, president of research firm Envisioneering Group.

Let's just hope they can all swim...

[bbyrdhouse]

Among the new software's 10 features are special photo-editing tools and a tool for making CD labels. The Plus Photo Story, for example, uses Microsoft's Windows Media 9 Series technology to compress photos so people can send pictures with voiceovers and songs attached, according to the company.
from http://news.com.com/2100-1023-978093.html?tag=fd_top

Microsoft may very well be cheaters and imitators but to the general public the don't appear that way.

I think that this move by Micro$soft will hurt Apple, heres how:

I know that you don't want to go here again but here we go, Now that the PC side is offering "comparable" software that Apple offers and for cheap why would anybody buying a new computer get an Apple that has a much slower processor!
I know, I know, but that IS how the general public looks at computers.
One of Apples strong points was the Software that came with the OS X, and now that point is not quite as strong as it used to be.

I hate Micro$oft.......and hurry up IBM or Motorola or whoever is supposed to come out with a new processor..................

[QuiteSure]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Microsoft is like the geek that shows up late to the party with mismatched socks and tries to impress the ladies with his PDA that he can't get to work while dropping his cell in the punch bowl as he knocks over a lamp. Everybody looks at him trying so desperately hard while miserably failing and just wishes he would leave...

...until the valet calls out to him for the keys to his Ferrari...

[Thirteenva]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle

Beware of Microsoft, but not of their ideas...

- my apologies for my arrogant tone.:)

I agree. Microsoft's ideas are all regurgitated. They wait for someone elses good idea to catch on, then jump on the band wagon with there own proprietary iteration and market it down peoples throats. Unfortunately people just don't get it. When I go on an anti microsoft rant people just can't understand. All they know is windows. "Macs don't run windows????well what do they run then?" <sigh>

People just aren't aware of the alternative.

P.S.
I didn't find you arrogant, and hell, as mac users we're quite elite and are allowed some arrogance ;) :D

[lmalave]

I don't think the release of this software will make much of a difference. MovieMaker just can't compare to iMovie, and anyway most "multimedia" PCs (i.e. those that come with FireWire port for DV editing) already ship with MovieMaker anyway. And isn't Windows Media Player 9 already a free download? Personally, I like having separate DVD Player and iTunes apps - I don't think all multimedia playback functionality has to be rolled up into one monolithic, unwieldy app, as Microsoft and Real Networks are trying to do.

But the significant thing here is not the software itself, but rather the marketing push. What Microsoft is trying to do is give people less reason to switch to the Mac. Already, 95% of consumers are trying to justify to themselves any reason to stay with the PC. That's why Apple has to do things like only offer the iPod for the Mac for a few months - because Apple needs to have major things that the PC doesn't. Rendezvous will probably be the next thing Apple tries to leverage. True, it's an open standard, but OS X supports it now, whereas it probably won't become standard in Windows until their next major release. Thankfully, iMovie is still in the class of things that the Mac has that Windows doesn't. There is comparable software for the PC, but Movie Maker is not it (you'd have to shell out at least $100).

Still, Microsoft's new Multimedia push (including its new Media Center variant of Windows) means Apple has to work that much harder to differentiate itself. That's why I think Apple has to come out with Rendezvous-enabled Digital Hub products immediately, since it's one of the few advantages it still has (besides the best product design team in the biz). Since other companies like Phillips will probably be slower to adopt Rendezvous, Apple has to move aggressively. Set-top boxes, Phone/PDAs, you name it. Apple has to start coming out with razzle-dazzle products to stay ahead of the curve. The iPod proved that there is a market for groundbreaking products, even in the middle of a recession.

[digitalbiker]

I never have understood what was so special about this idea anyway. Long before Steve Jobs ever coined the marketing term digital hub, many people were already using their pc's (generic term both Apple & windows) for video editting, audio editting, PDA syncing, file syncing, printing, email sending, photo editing, etc. etc.

So Steve Jobs coins the phrase, provides a few applications that do pretty much what others have done before but made them little easier to use. He bundles them with the OS and tells everyone they are free when actually they are paid for out of OS development costs. What's so revolutionary?

Where is the hub, anyway? I see Apple users constantly writing into the various mailing lists being told; Apple doesn't support Windows CE devices, Apple doesn't support Divx, Sorry that new Sony Clie is not supported, Oh you wanted to use that new Bluetooth phone sorry not quite there yet for that model, Apple's sorry but we only support our own internal DVD burner with iDvd, I bet you would like to use that new scanner you got for Christmas, Sorry.

How can anyone seriously take Apple as being a hub for digital devices. Sure they integrate a handfull of devices well but Apple is al ong long way from making their computers digital hubs for a majority of popular products. What does iSync even currently support; address book, palm desktop, itunes, mail? That's about it isn't it. That doesn't quite live up to the hub I was envisioning when Steve Jobs coined the phrase at MacWorld!

[PretendPCuser]

The Japanese are extremely good at taking an idea and then making it better and cheaper. They are leading and are also copying, so if we look at the business world of computing, it's fair to say that Microsoft will copy Apple and Apple will also copy Microsoft. But to say that Microsoft will never find a formula for discovering what people will use and like is just false.

That they are imitating the digital hub is flattering...and scary. Apple is a big corp. M$ is HUGE!

Many people see Apple as a friend and not as a business, and that leads to "we got to the digital hub strategy first" and now "M$ copies Apple!" which leads to "so it must be no good!" I agree with Mr. Grundke, you must understand the other side and it's capabilities if you wish to defend your own. I'm sure Sun Tzu said something about that.

In response to Mr. Grundke when he wished Apple was as aggressive as Dell and those other companies...well, they are trying to be! .mac is a perfect example. Much to the chagrin of some users, Apple is making inroads in trying to become more competitive.

Do what you gotta do Apple!

[bbyrdhouse]

Originally posted by lmalave
What Microsoft is trying to do is give people less reason to switch to the Mac. Already, 95% of consumers are trying to justify to themselves any reason to stay with the PC. That's why Apple has to do things like only offer the iPod for the Mac...

Thats all I am trying to say. There are a number of people who are almost ready to switch. They have finally gotten to a point where they are looking at all the great software that comes with a Mac and have almost decided to go ahead and get an iMac or eMac or iBook, but now that Microsft has these applications though not as good, (remember that potential switchers dont know how much better iDVD is than MovieMaker) then why switch.?

Apple has got to do 2 things (imo)

1. Decrease the Speed gap. (To Joe Computerbuyer it matters, and if it matters to the consumer then it matters)

2. Continue their recent aggressive pricing strategy.

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by digitalbiker


Where is the hub, anyway? I see Apple users constantly writing into the various mailing lists being told; Apple doesn't support Windows CE devices, Apple doesn't support Divx, Sorry that new Sony Clie is not supported, Oh you wanted to use that new Bluetooth phone sorry not quite there yet for that model, Apple's sorry but we only support our own internal DVD burner with iDvd, I bet you would like to use that new scanner you got for Christmas, Sorry.

How can anyone seriously take Apple as being a hub for digital devices. Sure they integrate a handfull of devices well but Apple is al ong long way from making their computers digital hubs for a majority of popular products. What does iSync even currently support; address book, palm desktop, itunes, mail? That's about it isn't it. That doesn't quite live up to the hub I was envisioning when Steve Jobs coined the phrase at MacWorld!

Very good points! What good is having a great sandbox if nobody brings their toys along? For the iMac to be considered a "digital hub", it really needs RCA in and out jacks as well as video (RCA, S-video, Component), just to start. I'd also have a contraption to turn lights and appliances on and off via program.

There is no hub yet.

drivers, drivers, drivers, drivers.....

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by PretendPCuser
.mac is a perfect example. Much to the chagrin of some users, Apple is making inroads in trying to become more competitive.

Do what you gotta do Apple!

From what I understand, .mac is pretty much considered a failed venture so far. After getting the initial group (half as many as they'd hoped) to sign up for half the price, there's been little interest from new users.

Apple's doing fine & they do not need to increase their market share. They serve a niche that cares about things differently than 95% of the users out there. As long as they don't do too much irreperable damage to their image, a small but steady flow will continue to come their way. Their image and the trust of their core group has taken some hits in the past year or so. This is more problematic than any device that Microsoft can put out....

[Thirteenva]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle


From what I understand, .mac is pretty much considered a failed venture so far. After getting the initial group (half as many as they'd hoped) to sign up for half the price, there's been little interest from new users.


It would help if it didnt seem like development for .mac has virtually halted. I'm hoping they come out with some new .mac features in january. I like having quick access to my idisk to share files but i'll want a whole lot more when it comes time to renew for full price...

[cubist]

Originally posted by adamcoop


Perhaps you can only share songs for which you have a receipt, a 16 digit serial number (generated by Microsoft), and a letter from the band.

And your social security number and MC/Visa on file at Microsoft. (Like MSN, they will gradually force everyone to use Passport whether anyone wants to or not):mad:

[SonnyCA]

I know I may get a lot of grief for saying this, but the market has obviously spoken and shown us that Apple does *NOT* offer the market what it wants.

The market obviously wants inexpensive and powerful computers, and couldn't care less about design and integration -- if this wasn't the case, PCs and Windows would not be as popular as they are. Windows must offer decent enough hardware integration for it to work enough for it to be popular among the masses.

While Apple focuses on industrial design and the integration of its applications, Windows will claim to have even more features on hardware that is even more powerful, and all for a lot less money. This is what the market wants, and this is *NOT* what Apple is focusing on.

I was shopping for a laptop the other day, comparing iBooks to Dells to Compaqs to IBMs. Why would anybody in his right mind buy an iBook?? You get so much more on the PC side, and the difference in software quality and case construction is trivial to consumers.

Apple is running its Switch marketing campaign, but I find it interesting that they offer no real compelling reasons for anyone to actually make the switch. They are telling me that I should switch to a platform that is slower and more expensive -- yah, that makes a lot of sense. I wonder how many switchers they've actually gotten, and how many Mac users have actually switched in the opposite direction.

Apple is marketing to its existing customer base. It's not going to switch anybody, I think it's a big joke. The only advantage Apple has is that MS sees it as a fly and doesn't bother squashing it.

Somebody please tell me what are the compelling advantages to having a Mac, besides slick industrial design that very few people care about? What can I get on the Mac that I can't get on the PC for less money???

[MacKenzie999]

Somebody please tell me what are the compelling advantages to having a Mac, besides slick industrial design that very few people care about? What can I get on the Mac that I can't get on the PC for less money??? [/B][/QUOTE]


I hate to say it but I agree with him, and have been (and likely remain) a loyal macuser since about 1988. For me the elegant design is reason enough. What % of the market do I represent? Likely a % of a %.

$.02
-Mike

[QuiteSure]

Originally posted by SonnyCA
Somebody please tell me what are the compelling advantages to having a Mac, besides slick industrial design that very few people care about? What can I get on the Mac that I can't get on the PC for less money???

I no longer care about the PC vs. Mac debate. I have 15 years of training and software invested in my Mac. I like OSX. It works. I haven't tried doing any of the things I do on the Mac on a PC, although I imagine I could do them. I suppose I'm a Mac version of the mindless PC hordes.

But I like very much my iBook, my Mirror Dual 867 and my Dual 500. I like my Airport cards and my iPod. I like the easy network that I've set up in my small law firm. I like the products.

I don't know, do many PC users like their products? Maybe that's all the difference we need.

[GabrielX]

Originally posted by SonnyCA
While Apple focuses on industrial design and the integration of its applications, Windows will claim to have even more features on hardware that is even more powerful, and all for a lot less money. This is what the market wants, and this is *NOT* what Apple is focusing on.

I was shopping for a laptop the other day, comparing iBooks to Dells to Compaqs to IBMs. Why would anybody in his right mind buy an iBook?? You get so much more on the PC side, and the difference in software quality and case construction is trivial to consumers.


Apple in its Switch ad is marketing perception. Right now, Apple cannot market speed or power very well. It may or may not be competitive, and we can argue that for years, but it cannot MARKET that, because of the numbers.

What Apple is marketing is the perception that using a Mac is better and easier than using a PC.

Apparently, its working to a degree. Does Apple need to step up the campaign by providing some better hardware? Absolutely, but for now, this is working.


Apple is running its Switch marketing campaign, but I find it interesting that they offer no real compelling reasons for anyone to actually make the switch. They are telling me that I should switch to a platform that is slower and more expensive -- yah, that makes a lot of sense. I wonder how many switchers they've actually gotten, and how many Mac users have actually switched in the opposite direction.


Certainly Apple's reasons are compelling. Just not to you or I. Have you seen the Sony ads in which the kid tells his dad to take the Memory Stick out of the camera and put it in the TV? Thats what Apple is marketing. They are marketing to the dad who wants a one step process to do things. Apple wants people to think that doing things is easier with the Mac.

Apple is marketing to its existing customer base. It's not going to switch anybody, I think it's a big joke. The only advantage Apple has is that MS sees it as a fly and doesn't bother squashing it.


I don't think that MS is the company Apple has to worry about. It is in MS's best interest to continue to support Apple and get the revenue streams from that market.

If I were Apple, I would only spare a little worry about MS.

What Apple does have to worry about is the Switch campaign succeeding. If it does, but slowly, as some point Apple will become big enough for companies like HP and Dell to decide that Apple computers are a threat to THEM. HP will squash Apple, for it has no reason not to. The only reason it hasn't yet is that Apple is not yet big enough to worry about.

Apple has to quickly get big enough, or otherwise strong enough, for HP or Dell to decide that the cost/benefit ratio of taking on Apple cuts more in Apple's favor. Right now, Apple is too small, at some point it will be too big. The middle ground is where Apple has to worry. HP does not get a revenue stream from Apple. (No, not even for printers, because if Apple didn't exist, we'd all have PCs and HP would sell us printers.)

Somebody please tell me what are the compelling advantages to having a Mac, besides slick industrial design that very few people care about? What can I get on the Mac that I can't get on the PC for less money???

In my case? I like the Mac OS X far better than I like Windows, and my personal satisfaction with my computer is worth the premium on the product.

Gabriel

Edited to fix some formatting problems.

[mykuki]

Originally posted by QuiteSure




I don't know, do many PC users like their products? Maybe that's all the difference we need.
!

[dricci]

Originally posted by digitalbiker
I see Apple users constantly writing into the various mailing lists being told; Apple doesn't support Windows CE devices,
Who's fault do you think this is? I doubt Microsoft would LET Apple support their PDA OS without paying MAJOR licencing fees.

Apple doesn't support Divx,
DivX is not a *real* standard, so it's impossible to "support" easily. 3rd parties have made many plugins that seem to handle many DivX files just fine.

Sorry that new Sony Clie is not supported,
This has more to do with Palm and their Palm Desktop/Hot Sync software than Apple.

Oh you wanted to use that new Bluetooth phone sorry not quite there yet for that model,
iSync is still in beta. Expect to see more phones supported when it goes into final.

Apple's sorry but we only support our own internal DVD burner with iDvd,
And what's wrong with this? Apple created iDVD to help sell their SuperDrive machines. It's their product, so they can choose to make it work with their internal burners only. If somebody like, say Roxio, wanted to make their own consumer DVD mastering software for Mac OS X, they could and make it support all the DVD burners Toast does. Write Roxio!

How can anyone seriously take Apple as being a hub for digital devices. Sure they integrate a handfull of devices well but Apple is al ong long way from making their computers digital hubs for a majority of popular products.
They seem to have a very good start right now. Many Digital Cameras and Firewire Video cameras are supported, there are a good selection of MP3 players supported, but this has more to do with the Manufactuers writing an iTunes plugin than anything else (Apple can't write everything for everybody else!)
Most major brands of scanners work, even integrate into things like Image Capture.

What does iSync even currently support; address book, palm desktop, itunes, mail? That's about it isn't it. That doesn't quite live up to the hub I was envisioning when Steve Jobs coined the phrase at MacWorld!
Do you not understand the concept of beta? If there's something you don't like about it, send in feedback to Apple! If there are popular feature requests, it WILL get added. Just like why we have an Apple menu in the top-left again. We weren't until Apple got enough demand via the feedback form from Public Beta.

[thecure]

As for me I've used Windows and Macs, and I can truly say that I don't feel as happy with Windows as I do with my Mac, but I do admit Windows is a Good OS but my OS X is better for me. Windows doesn't work as good for me as my Mac does, it's not just because I hate microsoft, that's a whole different story.
Microsoft's "digital hub" is definetly an attempt to copy what Apple is doing, yes these fuçkers go after all good stuff apple comes up with, because they know it's a working idea, and it's not just microsoft, look at the iPod clone, the gray one with the green screen. And it will always be like that, the reason why microsoft owns 95% of the market is not because they are better, no way Jose, but because somehow they started getting bigger than apple and were better than them at some point, but not now. I'm sure the coin will flip one day before I die. We should approach the windows-macs thing with an open mind and instead of acting the way we do, help apple, spread the word, tell a friend, a teacher, a neighbor about apple, offer them your help if they buy a new mac, explain why it would be a good investment, and maybe one day most people will be in our side.

~

[lmalave]

Originally posted by digitalbiker
I never have understood what was so special about this idea anyway. Long before Steve Jobs ever coined the marketing term digital hub, many people were already using their pc's (generic term both Apple & windows) for video editting, audio editting, PDA syncing, file syncing, printing, email sending, photo editing, etc. etc.

So Steve Jobs coins the phrase, provides a few applications that do pretty much what others have done before but made them little easier to use. He bundles them with the OS and tells everyone they are free when actually they are paid for out of OS development costs. What's so revolutionary?

Where is the hub, anyway? I see Apple users constantly writing into the various mailing lists being told; Apple doesn't support Windows CE devices, Apple doesn't support Divx, Sorry that new Sony Clie is not supported, Oh you wanted to use that new Bluetooth phone sorry not quite there yet for that model, Apple's sorry but we only support our own internal DVD burner with iDvd, I bet you would like to use that new scanner you got for Christmas, Sorry.

How can anyone seriously take Apple as being a hub for digital devices. Sure they integrate a handfull of devices well but Apple is al ong long way from making their computers digital hubs for a majority of popular products. What does iSync even currently support; address book, palm desktop, itunes, mail? That's about it isn't it. That doesn't quite live up to the hub I was envisioning when Steve Jobs coined the phrase at MacWorld!

Sure, that stuff existed before. But what's different is that it wasn't mass market - it was for the dedicated, determined enthusiast. Only in the past two or three years have digital photography, digital music (on portable MP3 players, not just on the desktop), digital video (both recording - Digital8 and MiniDV handycams - and playback - DVD), and digital organizers become truly mass-market. And that happens to coincide with the time that Apple has been pushing its "digital hub" strategy. Apple and Sony are the only two computer makers that I know of that are offering the connectivity (e.g. Firewire) and complete software suite to act as a true digital hub for the mass-market consumer that values ease of use above almost anything else when it comes to consumer electronics. And with Rendezvous, the connectivity and ease of use of the Apple digital hub will be even better.

[Thirteenva]

Originally posted by QuiteSure


I no longer care about the PC vs. Mac debate. I have 15 years of training and software invested in my Mac. I like OSX. It works. I haven't tried doing any of the things I do on the Mac on a PC, although I imagine I could do them. I suppose I'm a Mac version of the mindless PC hordes.

But I like very much my iBook, my Mirror Dual 867 and my Dual 500. I like my Airport cards and my iPod. I like the easy network that I've set up in my small law firm. I like the products.

I don't know, do many PC users like their products? Maybe that's all the difference we need.

AMEN!!!!!!:cool:

[lmalave]

Originally posted by SonnyCA
I was shopping for a laptop the other day, comparing iBooks to Dells to Compaqs to IBMs. Why would anybody in his right mind buy an iBook?? You get so much more on the PC side, and the difference in software quality and case construction is trivial to consumers.


I hereby challenge you to find me a 12.1" laptop with a combo drive, 30GB hard drive, 384MB of RAM, 32MB ATI Radeon 7500 or equivalent, and 5 hours battery life, all for $1300 (what this iBook configuration costs when buying from any Apple reseller). Similar offerings from Dell, Sony, and Fujitsu cost anywhere from $1500 to $2000. The iBook is all about mobility, as reflected in its smaller size and battery life. If you want an 8 to 10 pound "desktop replacement monster, then that's your choice, but don't mock us iBook buyers because we want to *gasp* actually carry around our laptops to work, school, airplanes, etc.

There IS a market for portable laptops, and actually I think Dell, Sony and Fujitsu are selling quite a few of their ultra-portables to consumers who unfortunately did not even consider the iBook, which is a much better value. To give you an idea of what these iBook competitors offer, they normally have an 800MHz to 1.2 GHz Pentium III (in the case of Dell and Sony), or a 933MHz Transmeta Crusoe (in the case of the Fujitsu). So it's not even like they have faster CPUs. Instead, they chose to (correctly, in my opinion), use a slower CPU that consumes much less power, so they can get a battery life of 4+ hours. And the cost of these computers? Hundreds more than my iBook! This has already been rehashed to death in other threads, but there is just no reason I need a Pentium 4 that will get a 2 hour battery life and burn my unmentionables like that sorry scientist in the U.K. I use my iBook for web browsing, MP3 listening, DVD viewing, the occasional game (like Baldur's Gate or Civ III), and yes, even development (granted, I'm a database developer, so the code actually runs on high-powered servers, and I just use my iBook for CVS, Ant, BBEdit, FTP, and JDBC/SQL connectivity).

Even when comparing the 14" iBook (which is less competitive in my opinion), you have to make sure you're comparing similar machines. For example, the 14" only weighs 6 pounds and has a 6 hour battery life. So this would be comparable to the Dell "Thin and Light" models. I think you'll find the price differential is much smaller than you might think, probably from $100-$200 dollars, but normally won't have a battery life longer than 2 Hours anyway, so you'd have to get an extra high-capacity battery for at least another $100.

Sure, Apple does not compete at the very low end, but so what? Apple will never make a computer that will sell for $200 at Wal-Mart. Is BMW a lesser company just because they don't sell as many cars Toyota or Honda? Ah, but a low-end BMW will still outperform and have more style than an Acura or Lexus that is aiming for the same target market.

There will always be room in any market for a higher-end product. I think Apple is wise not to aim for the mass market - those products just become commodities, profits fall to zero, and all but a handful of companies get weeded out. By staying out of the low-end price wars, they ensured that they would not be one of those companies weeded out. Apple cannot and should not compete with Dell at the low end (though as I mentioned above, they compete quite well in the mid to high end with Dell, offering an even better value than the supposed value leader in the PC market). Realistically, the best Apple can ever hope for is to gain 20% to 30% market share - and that's if they capture the bulk of the people that are willing to spend a little more than the minimum so that they can get a higher quality product and/or more features. And that's just fine with me.

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by SonnyCA
I know I may get a lot of grief for saying this, but the market has obviously spoken and shown us that Apple does *NOT* offer the market what it wants.

The market obviously wants inexpensive and powerful computers, and couldn't care less about design and integration -- if this wasn't the case, PCs and Windows would not be as popular as they are. Windows must offer decent enough hardware integration for it to work enough for it to be popular among the masses.


History Lesson!!

Before there were PC's in every household, they were in every office. Power was not important (and still isn't in many offices), but price was. Software offerings were pretty much the same on the IBM's and the Macs, but the IBM's were liscensed for cloning, which led to a lot of inexpensive and often cheap, unreliable machines. Steve Jobs did not want to relinquish such control and has been losing market-share ever since. The beancounters spoke & IBM clones took over the marketplace. People learned to use these at work and were familiar to them when it came time to buy one at home. With the number of machines came number of programs to run. This battle was decided before anyone now in high-school was born and as most businesses will follow their short-term wallets, this isn't likely to change. Windows is a standard like lug-nuts are a standard for fastening wheels to a car. Too much would need to change to institute even a better alternative. That is why Windows and PC's are popular.

Personally, I'm happy as beans that I can do everything I want to with a modern OS on a 5 year old machine. Do you know any PC users that can say the same? :D

- j

[lmalave]

Originally posted by lmalave

...those products just become commodities, profits fall to zero, and all but a handful of companies get weeded out.

An addendum: my prediction is that Dell will be getting its ass royally thrashed by a Chinese PC maker within 10 years. That's what happens when your business model is based on competing on price alone. Unlike HP and Gateway that had a hard time adapting to Dell's business model, a Chinese company could start from scratch and copy Dell's business model exactly, instilling a culture of efficiency and cost-cutting that is a key ingredient of companies that compete at the low end like Dell and Wal-Mart. Plus by that time every single component that goes into a PC will be manufactured in China, and a Chinese company will have the local connections and know-how to get its components as cheaply and efficiently as possible. Sound far fetched? Check back with me in 10 years ;)

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by lmalave

Check back with me in 10 years ;)

5.

Do I hear 3?

[shadowfax]

I think i have to say that MS just plain sucks at this. they won't ever come out with something better than apple's. apple will respond, for one, and furthermore, MS is BAD BAD BAD at copying. of course it will get more market and press than apple, but that doesn't make it better, and i for one don't care if they are more popular. i've always said people are stupid, and M$ is my personal best example.

they will screw this up somehow, some way they aren't talking about. it will crash like a lewd man on a voluptuous whore, or perhaps they really will throw the book at you on DRM, or something. XP was just like that with that ßull**** activation stuff.

if it makes you feel any better, microsoft has quality agents checking everything they market other than office. just like apple does. the only difference is that MS's agents make sure it sucks completely before they let it pass, because god forbid they give us something good. that wouldn't be profitable!

[User X]

I think thats what it comes down to for most of us....we love our Mac's. I would like to do a poll and get the percentage of Mac users that are happy with there computer experience vs PC users. I love my 867 quicksilver, it might not be the fastest one on the block but everytime I use it, I am happy I bought it. Not to mention it's a looks great. I use a Dell latitude at work everyday and I simply tolerate it. It has crashed on me once already today, not to mention I have had to ctrl-alt-del 4 times today for unresponsive programs. Since I have owned my g4 with osx I have not had a single crash...not one. That is what it's all about. Performance is an issue, don't get me wrong, but I have yet to find anything my computer can't handle nicely. The great thing about Apple is that they take something like making a movie or listening to music and make it easy to used and better than anything else out there. I would never use anything but iTunes for music...why would I? It is the best mp3 player IMO. Everyone knows that microsofts media center (RIP OFF) will not hold a candle to any of the iApps. But enough bitching....you know what, I kind of like being one of the select few using a Mac, if you are not smart enough to realize what they have to offer.....you don't deserve to own one. I for one am glad to be a part of the Mac community, there is a sense of pride that comes along with it. If osx were the standard, we might take for granted how good we have it. Despite the hardware setbacks I can't think of a better time to own a Mac.


Once you go Mac, you never go back!

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by Macrumors
News.com (http://news.com.com/2100-1023-978093.html?tag=fd_top) reports that Microsoft is taking cues from Apple's digital hub strategy with its own "Microsoft Plus Digital Media Edition" to be introduced on Tuesday.



The software package, which will sell for $19.95 contains added features beyond Apple's current offerings.

Added features?

1) "Special photo-editing tools" Okay, iPhoto probably doesn't do what these will do, but I'll wait and see on that one.

2) "a tool for making CD labels" ... well, as I've found none of the commercial CD labeling tools out there worth my time (I'd much rather use a real drawing/painting tool to do the job, although it's a pain having to retype the playlist from iTunes or Nero to put into the drawing program), I won't comment on this one. Sounds like just more useless crap to uninstall.

2) "The Plus Photo Story" allowing people to add audio to a still photo and send it in Media Player 9 encoded video. Only good if your recipient uses XP and foolishly installed Media Player 9 despite the EULA that now gives Microsoft permission to disable any and all of the software on your computer at its descretion.

3) "password-protected area for people to mix music and visual effects" ... Okay, sounds like a playlist. With a password on it? Seems odd. Judgement reserved.

4) "analog converter" ... to WMA format audio only. In other words, useless.

5) "Plus Sync and Go" ... might be useful to some, but it seems there's already a service that does this for free ...

The other five features remain unnamed.

I presume this will contain WMM 2.0, which will need to be an exponential improvement over the substandard Windows Movie Maker 1.2 software out there currently if it is to even be mentioned in the same breath as iMovie. I also presume this will contain WMP 9.0, which as I said above has a horrendously drastic EULA ... which EULA would probably be thrown out in court if it came down to it, but that would be after MS freely disabled all manner of software on your computer (most likely means being Windows Update, but there's no reason WMP itself couldn't be updated to do the damage directly). Not mentioned is Microsoft's DVD-creation tool (that is also de-emphasized on the Media Center PCs as it writes DVDs only the creating machine can read back ...), and the "10-foot interface" remote-control based control mechanism.

I've played with a Media Center PC. It's no iMac. No amount of Windows XP patching and glossing over can make Windows "bring them a lot closer to the ease of use of, say, the iMac." The OS is fundamentally not user-friendly.

Need I mention, of course, that previous "Plus Packs" for Windows have ranged from interesting (Win 95's Plus Pack) to buggy and useless (XP's Plus Pack)?

[Hawthorne]

The software also includes features for people to host a digital music "party" on the PC. Called Plus Party mode, the technology provides a password-protected environment for people to mix collections of music, add visual effects or create an interactive guest book.

OMG, that sounds like one of the geekiest things I've ever heard of. To me, parties and computers are mutually exclusive. I can just see some poor lonely geek trudging to a party, setting up a 10 lb laptop (or worse yet, his l33t modded-out lan party machine (hey, a party is a party, right?)), and trying to impress the women in the crowd with the abilities of his PC.

But then again, this is the same company that brought us Microsoft Bob. Their idea of a good time is strangely different than the rest of the world...

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by User X
I love my 867 quicksilver, it might not be the fastest one on the block but everytime I use it, I am happy I bought it.

Right on! I have a used beige G3 400 w/firewire & usb and 128 gigs of disk-space tucked away in a closet with a printer on a shelf above. Through the wall runs cables for a black 15" Sony lcd sitting in the corner of a curvy poplar bar, a Logitech cordless mouseman optical and a usb Apple keyboard that slides out from behind a flip-down drawer face. It's hooked up underneath the floor directly to my stereo where iTunes manages 450 cd's worth of mp3's and a phone-line to access the web. Sure, the beige-box is ugly, but it's hidden in the closet. The parts you do see are gorgeous (Jaguar included!) and for what we use it for- surfing/iTunes/educational games and some light design (heavy at times!), you'd never know that it wasn't a contemporary machine. I'm gonna wear this baby into the ground & will probably end up having skipped the entire G4 era of machines before I make my next purchase.

I can't speak for everyone, but my Mac rocks. - j

[bignumbers]

What really annoys me about Apple's Digital Hub" strategy isn't the software (which is wonderful) but the hardware. To be a hub, you need ports.

I just got a crappy $600 Dell PC for occasional use (replacing my 6-year-old clone which I used a few times a year). It has six USB 2.0 ports, four in the back and two in the front.

Apple, with all the Digital Hub talk, puts either two or three on every machine, all in the back. (Keyboard USB ports don't count; they're unpowered and usage limits motion of the keyboard.)

They're tied on firewire; two in the back on both, with the PC taking a slot.

Apple could add more USB and FireWire ports for next to nothing and make the user experience (not to mention cable clutter due to external hubs) quite a bit better.

As for M$'s new software... it'll probably have ten times as many features as the iApps, all so horribly implemented that it'll be useless to those fools who spend the $20.

[Bart]

Originally posted by tgrundke
What is so shocking to me is the sheer arrogance on part of the members of this group.

The first dozen thread replies consisted of phrases such as, "MSFT couldn't find an original idea of its own if it shat on its face." Or: "I think it's a nice try by Microsoft but I don't think it will matter much." Or: "blah, blah, blah." Or: "WHO CARES?!"

These comments underscore the very attitude that has gotten Apple into the position it is in today. Trace the Apple snobbishness to 1977 and you will see the root of all today's troubles. If you think that Microsoft's moves are irrelevant, unoriginal, 'blah' or otherwise unimportant, you belong to the Apple of 20 years ago.

Start accepting the massive juggernaut we are up against as a legitimate competitor and deal with it directly, not in some juvenile passive-aggressive way. Who owns 95% of the market?

Grow up.

I agree with tgrundke, if we don't change aditude soon, we could be lost this time. I'm a mac user for more then 12 years now and at the office I've been using PC's al that time too. And there was a time that a Wintel machine was a piece of ****, it could not start from cd, drivers never worked and it was a nightmare to ad new hardware.
Back in 2002 a pc can start as easy from its cd rom as a mac and drivers and new hardware mostly are ok. And that's exactly what they are under OS X,...mostly OK
A few years ago, when the G3 was still rocking fast, Steve Jobs told us that from now on Macintosh computers will always be minimum twice as fast as a pc...bla..bla..bla
Now I'm asking you, is a G4 twice as fast as a P4 3Ghz. Don't start telling me about the megahertz myth, I know all about it.
There was a time, Apple had a comparisation shart on its website P4 vs G4. Where is it now?! It's gone so bad they have to put in 2 G4 CPU's to keep up the competition.
In the 80's Apple had the avantage of having a wonderfull GUI, PC's only had dos or windows 3.x at the most.
Now PC's have a fairly good OS too. I know XP isn't perfect, is OS X perfect?.....NO! Not even Jaguar.
Another issue: I had to buy a G4 to keep al my SCSI hardware running, ok the imac is a beauty, I know and it comes with a lot of ports. But you can not plug in an SCSI card, you never can.
A few years ago Apple adopted the VGA port and everybody was happy, no more funny extra's to connect a non Apple monitor to the mac.
Now once more they've decided to use their own type of alien connector.
Steve Jobs will never learn!

There are many sites like this one, where the MAc is THE computer and pc's are ****. You will not find an opposite site as easy as a Pro Mac site. Do you know why? Because they don't care, to them Apple is a little company that manufactures Alien computers, who are a lot slower than their PC's and twice as expensive, so why talk about them?
A friend of mine once said: A mac is the Rolls Royce of all computers!"

These days Rolls Royce is owned by BMW, it could not exist without.
It's gotten old none competetive.


Bart

[tkinney80]

What is with you folks. Yes OS X is an awesome operating system with a great feel but nothing was wrong with OS 9. I never had any problems with 9 so why bash on it? Get over it.

[tgrundke]

The supreme irony, as SonnyCA has alluded to, is that Steve Jobs, the perennial cultural snob, is forced to sell to the whims of the marketplace.

I agree wholeheartedly that Apple has NOT offered what the market wants. Actually, I will amend that to say that Apple HAS produced what a small segment of the market wants, but has NEVER thought of developing for "the market" (which is a dirty term for Steve Jobs). In any other industry this wouldn't be an issue, but in the high tech industry it IS a fundamental issue.

Again: For some, Apple has answered the call. For the majority, Apple is cool albeit out of bounds for the masses.

Originally posted by SonnyCA
I know I may get a lot of grief for saying this, but the market has obviously spoken and shown us that Apple does *NOT* offer the market what it wants.

The market obviously wants inexpensive and powerful computers, and couldn't care less about design and integration -- if this wasn't the case, PCs and Windows would not be as popular as they are. Windows must offer decent enough hardware integration for it to work enough for it to be popular among the masses.

While Apple focuses on industrial design and the integration of its applications, Windows will claim to have even more features on hardware that is even more powerful, and all for a lot less money. This is what the market wants, and this is *NOT* what Apple is focusing on.

I was shopping for a laptop the other day, comparing iBooks to Dells to Compaqs to IBMs. Why would anybody in his right mind buy an iBook?? You get so much more on the PC side, and the difference in software quality and case construction is trivial to consumers.

Apple is running its Switch marketing campaign, but I find it interesting that they offer no real compelling reasons for anyone to actually make the switch. They are telling me that I should switch to a platform that is slower and more expensive -- yah, that makes a lot of sense. I wonder how many switchers they've actually gotten, and how many Mac users have actually switched in the opposite direction.

Apple is marketing to its existing customer base. It's not going to switch anybody, I think it's a big joke. The only advantage Apple has is that MS sees it as a fly and doesn't bother squashing it.

Somebody please tell me what are the compelling advantages to having a Mac, besides slick industrial design that very few people care about? What can I get on the Mac that I can't get on the PC for less money???

[Marvenp]

Originally posted by adamcoop


That's a good point

However

HP, Dell and others will probably throw it in for free, and market their machines as the most wonderful home movie making computers in the world.

And the idiots will buy it.

WRONG! I used to be the Creative Director for a software developer so trust me when I say NOTHING is free! Sure they bundle the software with a PC and tell the end user it's free, but what you don't know is the the price of the the software was already figured in when you purchased your new machine. We did deals like this with manufacturers all the time.

[tgrundke]

"Good artists create, great artists copy"

It matters not how much of a copier Microsoft is. You say they are "BAD BAD BAD at copying". Stop focusing on how much you disregard Microsoft's tactics and strategy and how it will inevitably collapse. Everything comes to an end at some point.

Instead, focus on Apple, what Apple's unique abilities are and help develop a way to leverage that to improve marketshare. Apple, by the way, is adopting similar tactics in its recent buy-outs of software companies.

The problem that Apple faces is that it is buying out software companies, telling its currently installed base, "you will buy Macs or nothing" if you wish to run our software. The question is: how long will it be before a decent alternative comes about?


Originally posted by Shadowfax
I think i have to say that MS just plain sucks at this. they won't ever come out with something better than apple's. apple will respond, for one, and furthermore, MS is BAD BAD BAD at copying. of course it will get more market and press than apple, but that doesn't make it better, and i for one don't care if they are more popular. i've always said people are stupid, and M$ is my personal best example.

they will screw this up somehow, some way they aren't talking about. it will crash like a lewd man on a voluptuous whore, or perhaps they really will throw the book at you on DRM, or something. XP was just like that with that ßull**** activation stuff.

if it makes you feel any better, microsoft has quality agents checking everything they market other than office. just like apple does. the only difference is that MS's agents make sure it sucks completely before they let it pass, because god forbid they give us something good. that wouldn't be profitable!

[tgrundke]

This discussion has been an interesting and incredibly civil one, to boot. Bravo to everyone.

I would like to reiterate a few points. Primarily about our hubris and helping Windows users to "see the light". Windows has a phenomenal amount of momentum behind it-people are accustomed to it, understand its quirks, etc. This applies to techies and non-techies alike.

People have invested thousands of dollars in software and hardware; thousands of hours in learning and understanding.

And Windows, fundamentally, ain't THAT bad. Sure, it's not as elegant and well integrated as a Mac, but it works - most of the time. Just like a Mac.

Moving to a Macintosh today means a heavy outlay in hardware, no real independence from Microsoft's way of doing business (you are still most likely going to run Office, or be faced with increasing MS like tactics from Apple). For most people it means learning a new Operating System, new 'colloquialisms', purchasing all new software.

Now, we still haven't even touched on the issue of price and of performance either.

For most people doing the calculations, it just does not add up. Unfortunate to say. Imagine you have teenagers and you tell them, "well, we're getting you a new iMac and most of those games you love-you can't play anymore."

Dad or mom of the year you will not be.

My point here is not to get the flames rolling or to hear howls of "scab!" "troll!" "MS lover!" My point is to ask everyone to understand the fundamentally painful realities we are up against. Stop thinking as an Apple lover and make a decision based on the financial, work, and other constraints most people are up against.

I buy Apple's equipment because I have a fundamental appreciation for the engineering and coherent package they deliver. I find the interface to be very pleasing and I can get my work done appropriately. However, the Wintel world beckons as more and more of my work takes place there, more and more applications and toys are there first, and increasingly Apple's price performance ratio falls off of the map.

Hopefully we'll get our house in order, until then keep the pressure on.

[Marvenp]

Originally posted by tgrundke
What is so shocking to me is the sheer arrogance on part of the members of this group.

The first dozen thread replies consisted of phrases such as, "MSFT couldn't find an original idea of its own if it shat on its face." Or: "I think it's a nice try by Microsoft but I don't think it will matter much." Or: "blah, blah, blah." Or: "WHO CARES?!"

These comments underscore the very attitude that has gotten Apple into the position it is in today. Trace the Apple snobbishness to 1977 and you will see the root of all today's troubles. If you think that Microsoft's moves are irrelevant, unoriginal, 'blah' or otherwise unimportant, you belong to the Apple of 20 years ago.

Start accepting the massive juggernaut we are up against as a legitimate competitor and deal with it directly, not in some juvenile passive-aggressive way. Who owns 95% of the market?

Grow up.

You have to admit this is a valid point. I'm sure Apple is taking this announcement seriously. And like a few others have stated, healthy competition is good for the end user. Emphasis on "healthy". Stupid format wars are NOT healthy e.g. the DVD format wars. Those type of competitions only leave the end user confused and frustrated. But Microsoft throwing their hat into the digital hub game should be interesting. I expect Apple will take 'em down. And it will be a chance for Apple to win over more customers when they see how much better Apple products intergrate and work the way they're supposed to. Let's stop seeing this as the glass being half empty. Besides, I always favor the underdog.

[Hawthorne]

Originally posted by tgrundke

For most people doing the calculations, it just does not add up. Unfortunate to say. Imagine you have teenagers and you tell them, "well, we're getting you a new iMac and most of those games you love-you can't play anymore."

Dad or mom of the year you will not be.

My point here is not to get the flames rolling or to hear howls of "scab!" "troll!" "MS lover!" My point is to ask everyone to understand the fundamentally painful realities we are up against. Stop thinking as an Apple lover and make a decision based on the financial, work, and other constraints most people are up against.


There was an article a while back (don't have link, sorry) making the point that a large number of home users were buying a Mac to compliment, not supplant, a Windows machine. That's my situation, though the PC is gradually gathering more dust as it goes further and further out of date. I think there is plenty of ground to be made in going after the dual-platform market.

Of course it's an uphill battle against MicroSoft. And there's very few ways to beat them, but there are ways. News.com did a good article on the mortality of MicroSoft last month, it's worth a read. MicroSoft is at it's best when it reacts to a given situation, it's track record at "innovation" has been at best spotty. They seem totally unaware of what "ease of use" is. My Windows-only friends could not believe I didn't need to install drivers to use iPhoto. It's like I was speaking Martian to them.

Apple's recent price moves in laptops are a portent of things to come. I expect to see price cuts / performance increases on the iMac/eMac line at MWSF, with cuts on the Powermac line waiting until the 970 arrives. At that point Apple will have innovation, power, and price all on their side. Then the real war will start.

[adamcoop]

Originally posted by Dunepilot


I must say that as a full-time OS 9 user I get really hacked off with the fact that it crashes at least twice a day. And yes, I do have it set up correctly.

This is all I was implying.

But I agree that this division amoungst Mac users caused by OS 9 v. OS X isn't a good thing.

[deejemon]

*

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by tgrundke
Apple, by the way, is adopting similar tactics in its recent buy-outs of software companies.


Buying them out (Chimera anyone?) is one thing. Completely copying the look and feel of an application like they did with Sherlock 3 (Watson) is Microsoftian in nature.

Can a company compete in a culture of relaxed ethics while maintaining their integrity?

[tgrundke]

Don't forget that throughout the mid-late 1980s and early 1990s Microsoft bought out innumerable software makers, such as FoxPro, for example. Their philosophy at the time was: If we don't own it and it will take too much time and money to make it, we'll just buy it.

Microsoft understood the fundamentals of the technology industry far better than Apple did. They exploited their advantages and were damed aggressive at the right time.

All of the moves Apple is making now should have been made in 1989-1991. From price/performance to "switchers", to Final Cut Pro and more recent software acquisitions, we're about 10 years too late.

In fact, you can already see the trade press in digital video, etc. assailing Apple's moves as not 'good for the industry', but as 'signs of a struggling PC manufacturer trying to lock users into a brand with little room for movement.'

Shades of Microsoft?

Originally posted by jayscheuerle


Buying them out (Chimera anyone?) is one thing. Completely copying the look and feel of an application like they did with Sherlock 3 (Watson) is Microsoftian in nature.

Can a company compete in a culture of relaxed ethics while maintaining their integrity?

[Marvenp]

Originally posted by Bart


I agree with tgrundke, if we don't change aditude soon, we could be lost this time. I'm a mac user for more then 12 years now and at the office I've been using PC's al that time too. And there was a time that a Wintel machine was a piece of ****, it could not start from cd, drivers never worked and it was a nightmare to ad new hardware.
Back in 2002 a pc can start as easy from its cd rom as a mac and drivers and new hardware mostly are ok. And that's exactly what they are under OS X,...mostly OK
A few years ago, when the G3 was still rocking fast, Steve Jobs told us that from now on Macintosh computers will always be minimum twice as fast as a pc...bla..bla..bla
Now I'm asking you, is a G4 twice as fast as a P4 3Ghz. Don't start telling me about the megahertz myth, I know all about it.
There was a time, Apple had a comparisation shart on its website P4 vs G4. Where is it now?! It's gone so bad they have to put in 2 G4 CPU's to keep up the competition.
In the 80's Apple had the avantage of having a wonderfull GUI, PC's only had dos or windows 3.x at the most.
Now PC's have a fairly good OS too. I know XP isn't perfect, is OS X perfect?.....NO! Not even Jaguar.
Another issue: I had to buy a G4 to keep al my SCSI hardware running, ok the imac is a beauty, I know and it comes with a lot of ports. But you can not plug in an SCSI card, you never can.
A few years ago Apple adopted the VGA port and everybody was happy, no more funny extra's to connect a non Apple monitor to the mac.
Now once more they've decided to use their own type of alien connector.
Steve Jobs will never learn!

There are many sites like this one, where the MAc is THE computer and pc's are ****. You will not find an opposite site as easy as a Pro Mac site. Do you know why? Because they don't care, to them Apple is a little company that manufactures Alien computers, who are a lot slower than their PC's and twice as expensive, so why talk about them?
A friend of mine once said: A mac is the Rolls Royce of all computers!"

These days Rolls Royce is owned by BMW, it could not exist without.
It's gotten old none competetive.


Bart




I really sick of hearing about how the Mac has to catch up to the PC as far as speed goes; about how there are 3Ghz PCs compared to 1.25 Ghz Macs. I ask all of you honestly, how many people (with the exception of designers or 3D animators) know anyone who has a 3Ghz PC on their desk at work? They may exist but the average cheap consumer doesn't go out shopping for a 3Ghz Pentium PC. And for what they do buy (which is usually the cheapest thing they can get their hands on for their budget), the iMac is every bit a better machine (performance included). So stop this crap about how PCs are faster. Besides if you are a true Mac fan you know that those bragging rights will eventually be shattered by something Steve has up his sleeve. Who saw the slotloading superdrives for the PowerBooks coming? Everyone including this rumor site predicted it wouldn't be ready until next year. And bragging rights is exactly what we're talking about because most PC users don't have a need for a 3Ghz machine. Most designers (creative people) use a Mac. So if anyone needs that kind of performance, it's Mac users.
:mad:

[tgrundke]

My friend, I am sorry but the speed issue is *everything* at the moment. Sure, slot-loading superdrives are cool - nobody on the Wintel side could give a hoot. Sure, the iMacs look neat, but the Wintel people ask, "where's the software and games?" The PowerMacs are elegant but people look at the pricetag and say, "are you nuts?"

When you add the speed factor (or lack thereof) into the equation, the case for Macintosh is that much harder to make. I do not disagree with you: Speed ain't everything. Sadly, it is yet another factor that gives people a reason *not* to buy a Macintosh.

I have to be honest, as cool as the iMac is, I will not buy one because I cannot upgrade the video on the machine and I cannot justify spending $2000 on an 800mhz machine, myth aside.

We can talk until we're blue in the face-but again, think like non-Apple enthusiasts think if you want to understand. Suddenly the 'cool' factor drops off. It's like Bang & Oulefsen audio equipment- it's the most beautiful, well engineered audio equipment in the world. Is it the most expensive? Hells yes. Is it the best audio quality, no-not really, you can have equal and sometimes better sound quality from equipment far less expensive. For 99.9% of the populace, their Sony or (shudder) Bose speakers are 'good enough' - B & O is extravagent.

The same image exists of Apple - and the people willing to pay Apple's premiums are falling by the wayside.

The more I investigate the situation, I come to believe that Apple itself *must* understand this fundamental movement in the industry toward 'commodity status'. That is why Apple must move itself into other 'service' markets because they are going to be forced to significantly lower margins on hardware to maintain competitiveness.

And please-the whole "the creative community users Macs" is an argument that is losing staying power. The last six months has witnessed my moving two large local creative organizations with a total of 175 some Macintoshes over to Wintel. When people need to get their work done with less expense they're not interested in waiting for Steve's next "cool thing".

As someone who supports Macs and Wintel machines, the horrible truth that Apple doesn't want you to know is that a competent IS person won't need to spend much more time in the Windows environment than he/she does in the Macintosh. We have a law office of 80 and I spend on average one day per week at the firm doing support work. Same holds true for the Mac offices I support of comparable size.

And finally, this issue of being a 'true Mac fan' is the very one that I am most interested in addressing. Being a true Mac fan should not mean blind loyalty without recognizing the enemy you are against and the very legitimate reasons for going with your competitors' products. Speed matters, Macintoshes are getting clobbered at the moment, and this issue is only exacerbated when you make a price-performance calculation. It's that cold, hard, and simple. And the sad truth is that many many people make their decisions based on those very variables.

Originally posted by Marvenp


I really sick of hearing about how the Mac has to catch up to the PC as far as speed goes; about how there are 3Ghz PCs compared to 1.25 Ghz Macs. I ask all of you honestly, how many people (with the exception of designers or 3D animators) know anyone who has a 3Ghz PC on their desk at work? They may exist but the average cheap consumer doesn't go out shopping for a 3Ghz Pentium PC. And for what they do buy (which is usually the cheapest thing they can get their hands on for their budget), the iMac is every bit a better machine (performance included). So stop this crap about how PCs are faster. Besides if you are a true Mac fan you know that those bragging rights will eventually be shattered by something Steve has up his sleeve. Who saw the slotloading superdrives for the PowerBooks coming? Everyone including this rumor site predicted it wouldn't be ready until next year. And bragging rights is exactly what we're talking about because most PC users don't have a need for a 3Ghz machine. Most designers (creative people) use a Mac. So if anyone needs that kind of performance, it's Mac users.
:mad:

[Nebrie]

Originally posted by tgrundke
The supreme irony, as SonnyCA has alluded to, is that Steve Jobs, the perennial cultural snob, is forced to sell to the whims of the marketplace.

I agree wholeheartedly that Apple has NOT offered what the market wants. Actually, I will amend that to say that Apple HAS produced what a small segment of the market wants, but has NEVER thought of developing for "the market" (which is a dirty term for Steve Jobs). In any other industry this wouldn't be an issue, but in the high tech industry it IS a fundamental issue.

Again: For some, Apple has answered the call. For the majority, Apple is cool albeit out of bounds for the masses.



The market wants better/faster Macs than the fastest powermac out there now for less than a Walmart lindows machine.

The market (i.e. you) needs to learn that Apple must obey the laws of physics.

[MDA]

Originally posted by tgrundke
And please-the whole "the creative community users Macs" is an argument that is losing staying power. The last six months has witnessed my moving two large local creative organizations with a total of 175 some Macintoshes over to Wintel. When people need to get their work done with less expense they're not interested in waiting for Steve's next "cool thing".

I am the Mac support person for an ad agency of about 270 people, 100 of them are using Mac's, 50 them are designers. There is no way that the agency could switch to PC's without a huge fight on their hands from the designers. It is true that, to my disappointment, a couple of departments have been forced to the dark side but they were not happy about it. I don't get a lot of requests from people to upgrade their machines to the latest and greatest speed demon out there. For the most part they just want to be able to get their work done, and they don't like change. It is going to be interesting when we move to OS X and possibly InDesign, but certainly not as difficult for them as a move to XP. Another issue that will keep us on Macs for the foreseeable future is COLORSYNC, there just isn't an equivalent on the PC side.

MDA

[Geetar]

I'm curious about the economics of switching over whole departments from Macs to WinXP or whatever. How do the cost/benefit analyses actually stack up?

[tgrundke]

Geetar:

I'm going to give another example here that demonstrates pretty clearly what it is we are up against *especially* when it comes to the cost/benefit analysis of the platforms.

Switching from Macintosh to Windows is an 'emotional' issue for many. However, increasingly the logical needs and supply of applications is overshadowing that emotional tie to Macintosh.

For example, in the legal field there are several great programs such as HotDocs and Time Matters which are not available on Macintosh. These are those 'critical apps' that cannot be lived without and many attorneys swear by them before they would swear on the bible.

In this case, I have a law firm that had older Macs under OS 8.x, were showing their legs, and the partners heard all about this great new software available for Windows.

So I put together a proposal for a new Macintosh network. The partners asked me, "Well, what about Windows? Do the numbers for us there."

(Now let me mention here that many Mac friends of mine have criticized me heavily for not putting a better 'spin' on the Macintosh when I did my comparison for this client. I was shocked by this attitude, as it is the consultants' job to have the best interests of the client in mind: to find the best mix of price/performance/applications to do the job well.)

So when I put together the comparison of cost for the two (getting new Macs versus moving to Windows), Windows won hands down. There were many factors involved in the decision and let me highlight a few here: Dell works very closely with consultants to customize, support, provide throw-ins, discounts, etc. Compare this to Apple, who was nothing but a pain in the ass to deal with and seems oddly obsessed with placing as many obstacles in my way as possible.

Long story short, the move over to a Windows network ended up costing us $7500 less. Hardware aside, here were some of the extra costs had we stuck with Apple:
1) Not being able to customize the Macs *specifically* as we needed them (smaller HD, for example);
2) 1-year warranty, no on-site business support same day;
3) New software purchases.

Built into the price of the new Dells was Office XP Small Business, for example. That saves me $199 per machine. The 3-year warranty was built into the price, that saved me another $149 per machine. Going to smaller hard drives saved me another $50 per unit, no speakers saved me $50, no modem saved me $25...etc., etc., etc.,

Combine that with the slower processor speeds (which negatively impact the deal from a psychological point right from the get-go) and the lack of those two critical-apps and you see where I am headed.

The office staff *LOVED* their Macs. I state that emphatically. THEY LOVED THEIR MACS.

But guess what? They learned to use Windows and accept it and within 3 months were just as content, albeit less passionate, as with their Macs.

This is almost one year on, and my support costs and hourly billings have stayed exactly the same.

Folks: this is what we are up against. Emotional attachment to the platform aside, when push comes to shove, we have a very very hard struggle.

So, what is it that *can* be done to make the Mac a more viable alternative?

Originally posted by Geetar
I'm curious about the economics of switching over whole departments from Macs to WinXP or whatever. How do the cost/benefit analyses actually stack up?

[tgrundke]

MDA:

You do highlight a good point here as to why people won't switch to Macs in droves: "For the most part they just want to be able to get their work done, and they don't like change."

You are 100% spot-on correct. Our move from Win98 to XP or 2000-Pro to XP in some offices has been disastrous; Not from the compatibility or "Windows sucks" side, but from the support side. People were simply befuddled, confused, lost, and otherwise scoobied.

Try moving people from WordPerfect to Word XP...a disaster of earth-shattering proportions. My experiences here have demonstrated that unless there is a DIRE need to 'switch', it just ain't gonna happen for most people.

You are correct, in many settings the Macintosh will be the necessary tool for the foreseeable future. But you also highlight well the marginalization of Macintoshes in many environment, relegated to few specific tasks that the Windows machines still cannot properly handle.


Originally posted by MDA


I am the Mac support person for an ad agency of about 270 people, 100 of them are using Mac's, 50 them are designers. There is no way that the agency could switch to PC's without a huge fight on their hands from the designers. It is true that, to my disappointment, a couple of departments have been forced to the dark side but they were not happy about it. I don't get a lot of requests from people to upgrade their machines to the latest and greatest speed demon out there. For the most part they just want to be able to get their work done, and they don't like change. It is going to be interesting when we move to OS X and possibly InDesign, but certainly not as difficult for them as a move to XP. Another issue that will keep us on Macs for the foreseeable future is COLORSYNC, there just isn't an equivalent on the PC side.

MDA

[Hawthorne]

Regarding the digital hub strategy (which I have this vague idea was the purpose of this thread...), Wired has an interesting article (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.01/start.html?pg=1) that presents the idea of Microsoft in the fight of it's life. It's won the desktop war, now what? The article points out that Microsoft has yet to repeat it's success in any non-PC endeavour, making it mortal, perhaps.

[jayscheuerle]

Apple faces the same problem as do all computer makers. Pretty much everyone who wants a PC has one and for everyday tasks a 4 or 5 year old computer still does the job. How do you convice someone who uses their computer to surf the web, check their email and do their accounting to buy something they don't need? Computers are becoming appliances, and for most intents and purposes can be used until they die. I'm talking about the average user here, not gamers or pros, whom I am happy to take advantage of and buy their 2 year old discards when they are overcome by the "latest and greatest" urge. Apple hasn't sold any hardware to me personally since my 6100 and like cars, computer's resale values plummet the moment you take them home. Buy used.

Apple has the right idea with the iPod. They need to compete with Sony more than Microsoft. - j

[tgrundke]

Wired's analysis is spot on.

Microsoft is quite worried about its future pastures. As the saying goes, once you are on top there's nowhere to go but down.

Microsoft is pouring (literally) billions into XBOX, .net, and numerous other ventures in an attempt to broaden its base and protect itself for when the Windows franchise begins to lose its lustre.

Never count MS down and out. They learn fast and adapt quickly. Those of us who must deal with their software have been mildly impressed the last 18 months as Redmond is making their server-client tools better and better at a breakneck pace.

They know what they're about and the strategies that work best.

Originally posted by Hawthorne
Regarding the digital hub strategy (which I have this vague idea was the purpose of this thread...), Wired has an interesting article (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.01/start.html?pg=1) that presents the idea of Microsoft in the fight of it's life. It's won the desktop war, now what? The article points out that Microsoft has yet to repeat it's success in any non-PC endeavour, making it mortal, perhaps.

[tgrundke]

Bingo.

This is what we call a market that has entered 'commodity status', whereby the major determining factor is *price* (within a certain parameter).

Dell learned this eons ago - that computers were going to become appliances at some point. Ergo, they modeled their business after a low-cost manufacturer of boxes.

Apple definitely must go the Sony/IBM route: get their technology into others' products, share development costs, create tools and appliances that work across platforms, and embrace open standards.

I think we're seeing those pieces come into place very nicely and Apple is positioning itself to leverage many of its technologies, investments, and purchases in the coming 12-24 months.

I genuinely believe that 2003 will be a landmark year for the company, representing a fundamental 'shift' in growth strategies as Apple moves to the Sony/IBM model.

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Apple faces the same problem as do all computer makers. Pretty much everyone who wants a PC has one and for everyday tasks a 4 or 5 year old computer still does the job. How do you convice someone who uses their computer to surf the web, check their email and do their accounting to buy something they don't need? Computers are becoming appliances, and for most intents and purposes can be used until they die. I'm talking about the average user here, not gamers or pros, whom I am happy to take advantage of and buy their 2 year old discards when they are overcome by the "latest and greatest" urge. Apple hasn't sold any hardware to me personally since my 6100 and like cars, computer's resale values plummet the moment you take them home. Buy used.

Apple has the right idea with the iPod. They need to compete with Sony more than Microsoft. - j

[lmalave]

Originally posted by tgrundke
Bingo.

This is what we call a market that has entered 'commodity status', whereby the major determining factor is *price* (within a certain parameter).

Dell learned this eons ago - that computers were going to become appliances at some point. Ergo, they modeled their business after a low-cost manufacturer of boxes.

Apple definitely must go the Sony/IBM route: get their technology into others' products, share development costs, create tools and appliances that work across platforms, and embrace open standards.

I think we're seeing those pieces come into place very nicely and Apple is positioning itself to leverage many of its technologies, investments, and purchases in the coming 12-24 months.

I genuinely believe that 2003 will be a landmark year for the company, representing a fundamental 'shift' in growth strategies as Apple moves to the Sony/IBM model.



Yeah, man: Rendezvous, MPEG-4, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth - I feel it all about to come together in an explosion of cool Apple gadgetry!

[Geetar]

Tgrundke,

Thanks for the expansion on your earlier point. It's good to get a glimpse of issues in a different industry to the one I'm buried in (music).

[Yellow99Stang]

You people here sure complain a lot about MS. Get over it. I have every kind of computer out there and they all work. Some better than others. Corporate America needs Windows. Designers need macs, big servers need to be BSD derivitives, and the US government likes Unix and wants to Adopt Linux. And people here still complain. Microsoft has always sold PLUS since win3.1, and this is Plus Media Center thing is no differnet so they are not "biting" off Apple, and even if they were so what, does it impact you life that much?
People like me like the idea of building our own systems, if APPLE would just sell OSX for MY AMD Processor systems i would be with it in a second, but they won't cause they wanna control the crappy hardware they give you for double the price. The world as I see it with the blinders off as i don't hold to any illusions of any companies greatness or benevoloence.(case in point the .Mac BS! and how it screwed me and countless others, but my hotmail, yahoomail, and netscape mail is all still free)
MS OS's are decent but stability is always an issue with the amount of hardware it supports. Office is great and the best productivity package ever. Thats why all almost all of the corporate world uses it.
Apple makes pretty looking hardware that is less than modern,sticking a tft screen on something is like when you look at a 20 ft classic car. At 20 feet it looks amazing but when you get up close and look under the hood you find its full of blemishes and lackluster parts and equipment. However APPLE puts out an amazing and great OS too bad it won't run on a cutting edge P4 3Gigahertz with HT on a DDR400 motherboard with a WD Special edition 200 Gig HD with an S-ATA150 transfer that costs way less than an Apple system. I mean i can go on and on about how i love my Powerbook G4 Ti because of the ergonomics and the looks and feel of it and how well it works in relation to my thinkpad , etc etc. Bash IBM, Praise linux because of what it symbolizes in the fight against RIAA and the DMCA and go on and on. But my whole point here is, please take your head out of your rectums, take a good look around and see the world and everything that goes along with it for what it is. If your happy with your Mac and its OS plus programs etc, then who the hell gives 2 ******S what MS is doing on their side of the fence?! Go on with your lives and be happy and for goodness sake QUIT COMPLAINING!! Its not like Bill Gates and Steve Balmer broke into your house and stole the bread off your table!!

[OutThere]

Recently I used my friend's Sony Vaio digital studio. In theory this is a massive digital hub that you can connect anything you want to. The more that I used it the more I wanted it. It seemed so powerful, windows XP seemed stable and good, and it ran every game that you could think of for a PC. I thought how wimpy my little iMac seemed compared to this beast with a video capture card, AV ports all around and a TV Tuner. We tried to set it up for video mirroring using an S-Video out, from then on I began to dislike the computer more and more. It was completely unintuitive. While the help system worked, unlike OS X's, it didn't give you any information as to the source of your troubles. Then there was the slew of programs supposed to work together efficiently churn out home movies and DVD's. Unfortunatley they were named such non-descript names as Pico Player, Giga Pocket, Giga Video Recorer. We needed to launch each one to see what it did, which wasn't much. The computer was stable, but it seemed counterprodcutive. When I used my iMac the next morning I couldn't get enough of OS 9. The Sony Digital hub seemed inadequate, it shipped with a geforce 2, and a very low quality sound card, but was sugar coated to cover up it shortcomings. If a mac were to have that many AV ports and one or two simple software programs it could become the ultimate digital hub, which the vaio digital studio did not even come close to.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by Yellow99Stang
You people here sure complain a lot about MS. Get over it. I have every kind of computer out there and they all work. Some better than others. Corporate America needs Windows. Designers need macs, big servers need to be BSD derivitives, and the US government likes Unix and wants to Adopt Linux. And people here still complain. Microsoft has always sold PLUS since win3.1, and this is Plus Media Center thing is no differnet so they are not "biting" off Apple, and even if they were so what, does it impact you life that much?
People like me like the idea of building our own systems, if APPLE would just sell OSX for MY AMD Processor systems i would be with it in a second, but they won't cause they wanna control the crappy hardware they give you for double the price. The world as I see it with the blinders off as i don't hold to any illusions of any companies greatness or benevoloence.(case in point the .Mac BS! and how it screwed me and countless others, but my hotmail, yahoomail, and netscape mail is all still free)
MS OS's are decent but stability is always an issue with the amount of hardware it supports. Office is great and the best productivity package ever. Thats why all almost all of the corporate world uses it.
Apple makes pretty looking hardware that is less than modern,sticking a tft screen on something is like when you look at a 20 ft classic car. At 20 feet it looks amazing but when you get up close and look under the hood you find its full of blemishes and lackluster parts and equipment. However APPLE puts out an amazing and great OS too bad it won't run on a cutting edge P4 3Gigahertz with HT on a DDR400 motherboard with a WD Special edition 200 Gig HD with an S-ATA150 transfer that costs way less than an Apple system. I mean i can go on and on about how i love my Powerbook G4 Ti because of the ergonomics and the looks and feel of it and how well it works in relation to my thinkpad , etc etc. Bash IBM, Praise linux because of what it symbolizes in the fight against RIAA and the DMCA and go on and on. But my whole point here is, please take your head out of your rectums, take a good look around and see the world and everything that goes along with it for what it is. If your happy with your Mac and its OS plus programs etc, then who the hell gives 2 ******S what MS is doing on their side of the fence?! Go on with your lives and be happy and for goodness sake QUIT COMPLAINING!! Its not like Bill Gates and Steve Balmer broke into your house and stole the bread off your table!!

you have the worst talent for communicating your ideas i have ever seen. you strike me as an overbearing asshole, quite frankly, and i don't appreciate you bringing your mangy, poorly constructed arguments in such a manner. you tell us not to complain about a company we have issues with, and then you go off about apple. i don't care if you have a G4 powerbook, you've obviously missed the boat somewhere. apple doesn't need to port their software to x86. it's a waste of time to support such a market. they're all like you, they think that they "need" windows. anyone who "needs" windows doesn't need an OS X port. OS X is not for people who put up with crap like that, if you ask me.

and our hardware may be expensive, but it's better, in a very tangible way. you can go knowck yourself out on a pentium 4 all you want; that's not quality, that's slamming as much heat as you can into the smallest package possible. your 3 GHz box takes ~100 watts of power! that's stupid and unsafe. apple hardware has a different perspective (don't whine to me about the G4, that's motorola's problem and i hope apple will drop those idiots as soon as possible)--it's made fast, not fastest , but plenty fast, i promise. they have other ideas in mind, and you can call it ergonomics, techno feng shui bull if you want, but with my tibook next to my dad's dell laptop, i am sold.

that's just me though, of course. if you like microsoft you can go for them. i hope they make you a happy little twit.

Oh and about your idiotic "plus" and "3.1" comment, save it. we have you covered there too. 3.1 itself is basically a rip. I mean, if a company did to MS what gates did to apple in the 1980s, he would put a lawsuit up their rears in a new york second. dear god, looking at your whole argument, i feel such deep shame to even remotely agree with anything you say, even if under normal circumstances i would agree.

[GrandShenlong]

The main problem that Apple faces is that its raw statistics vs. price ratio is too low. People see

$2500: Pentium 4 2.8 GHz, etc.
and next to it,
$2500: 800Mhz G4, etc.

AMD attempted to solve this with its XP ####+ series. Though I don't know of that strategy was effective, but the average schmoe will at least take another glance at an AMD machine now. Apple needs to narrow the APPARENT (as opposed to the real) gap between its processors and Intel's.

Microsoft has a huge advantage in terms of software, and I DON'T mean capabilities. Since it has 95% market share, most software publishers will tailor their products to Windows machines. Just look at the number of games that are Windows-compatible and the number that are Mac-compatible. THere's no comparison there. Apple has an davantage with the fact that its flagship products are all in-house (iTunes, iDVD, iChat, etc.) BUT, this can also be detrimental to business. Apple has WAY more at stake when it introduces a new iApp than does Microsoft when Easy CD Creator 23 rolls out. Thus, Apple's products MUST be MUCH more streamlined than Microsoft to ENSURE, BEYOND A DOUBT, that they'll make Apple some big bucks. Microsoft has oodles of third-party publishers to spread the risk over. Sure, they don't get the money, but gain the popularity.

Windows, in all of its different iterations, has been harder to use than Mac OS. But, right off the bat, it tailored itself xclusively to the whim of the market. Now, AFTER getting 95% market share, it can afford to be arrogant. Apple, on the other hand, can't do so, because it started out arrogant. Now it has to recapture a percentage of a gigantic market, that is already much-enamored of, and familiar with, Windows.

But then again, such competition is healthy. It keeps Apple's software a step ahead of Microsoft's constantly, fue to the constant threat to Apple of dying out if it doesn't always keep one step of the competition. Also, in my opinion, Apple's hardware needs to be made more utilitarian. Case in point, the one-button mouse. That things has driven me crazy numerous times, havng to wait for a little while before a the secondary function window pops up, or holding down a key on the keyboard, may get quite frustrating for the average newbie.

Even though the Mac OS is more streamlined, I would say that Apple and Microsoft are tied in the race to build the ultimate digital hub. Sure, the new iMac oozes style, and has killer iApps, but look at the HP and Sony offerings: media readers, MASSIVE hard drives, speedy processors, their exterior styling is on the road to slickness, and DVD burners galore. All at a very attractive price for the average customer, who doesn't read expert reviews, and doesn't track benchmarks. For them: 2.6 GHz = high wow factor, and 200GB hard drives just add to the allure. Comparing a high-end HP Media Center side-by-side with a high-end iMac, the iMac will win fashion awards by a landslide, but HP will look nice judging from pure stats, which, aside from price, is the first thing consumers look at.

[GrandShenlong]

Looking at the few comments immediately preceding my previous one, I feel I must post again. Sorry.

I'm now typing on a Windows PC that I built myself, it's bloody fast, but at the same time, noisy as anything. I like Windows XP, and MAC OS X too, since my school (U of MI) has massive labs filled with new iMacs. To the one who insists on exuding his arrogance all over this forum, I must say this. Microsoft bashing is useless, but so bashing Microsoft bashers. I mean, if you truly see the merits of both systems, and even if you think that your Windows system (I myself would never switch unless Apple came out with a two-button mouse, and other stuff) is better, why do you feel that you must play God and tell the heathens that their opinions (even if they're unfounded, which apparently is not true) don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Does YOUR opinion really matter?

Somehow, I doubt that the World of Mac will kowtow at your feet and listen to your thoroughly intelligent, refined, and highly polished rant on how Apple fans should just shut up and open their eyes. If you really think that you yourself can actually make them listen to such a bluntly stated, and rather crude, opinion, maybe you need an eye-opener yourself.

Have a nice day.:D

[skunk]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
OS X is not for people who put up with crap like that, if you ask me.

No, but it's evidently for people who put up with Apple's crap: high prices, dysfunctional printing, SLOW processors, SLOW surfing.... This is not an argument, it's bigotry. Of course we all feel increasingly embarrassed to have invested in a platform which appears to be falling far behind in performance, but Mac users should be complaining to Apple, not slagging off Windows users. And it's not MS' fault that Apple made a lousy business decision in the 80s. That was down to our great Leader bathing in his own RDF....

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by skunk


No, but it's evidently for people who put up with Apple's crap: high prices, dysfunctional printing, SLOW processors, SLOW surfing.... This is not an argument, it's bigotry. Of course we all feel increasingly embarrassed to have invested in a platform which appears to be falling far behind in performance, but Mac users should be complaining to Apple, not slagging off Windows users. And it's not MS' fault that Apple made a lousy business decision in the 80s. That was down to our great Leader bathing in his own RDF....

why emphasize slow? i mean, oooh, ok, the 3 GHz P4 tops the dual 1 1/4 GHz G4... that doesn't make it slow. that's stupid. and lemme tell you, chimera is screaming fast browsing. i don't put up with any of the crap you cited at all. so you got me on the prices thing. people pay a lot for a name that they think is good. look at bose, or sennheiser, or mont blanc, or rolls, or jaguar...

and if you hadn't noticed, plenty of us bitch at apple when they do stupid things do. nobody's perfect, but i've lived with MS long enough, and still do to a lesser extent, to know that that's not the crap i want to deal with.