Mac OS 10.2.3 Released [Archive]

Hemingray

Dec 19, 2002, 05:00 PM

FYI, the KBase doc is now up:

Digital Hub and Peripheral Device Enhancements

* Enhances support for Force Feedback-based USB devices.
* Disc burning speed selection is now retained between Finder CD burns.
* Certain files and folders specific to Mac OS file systems, such as a Temporary Items folder or Desktop Folder, are no longer copied to the disc when burning a CD.
* Addresses a situation in which Disk Copy may not proceed beyond the "Configuring Burn" stage when used with some external FireWire-based CD burners.
* Addresses a potential issue in which some computers do not mount in FireWire Target Disk Mode.
* Improves compatibility for iPhoto and Image Capture with Canon IXY DV, Optura200MC, Elura 40MC, zr50, and GL2.
* Adds disc burning support for some third-party burners, including: LaCie d2 CD-RW 48x12x48x FireWire, LaCie d2 CD-RW FireWire 52x24x52, and BUSLINK RW5252FM 52x24x52x

Networking, iChat and Modem Enhancements

* Addresses an issue in which the computer does not sleep if Personal File Sharing is on.
* Connect to Server may now connect to an FTP server when using the Japanese localized version of Mac OS X.
* Improves compatibility for USB-based CDC modems.
* Connections with iDisk volumes over a busy network or low-bandwidth connection are improved; for example, when attempting to use an iDisk while also playing a streamed Internet radio broadcast via iTunes over a dial-up modem connection (PPP).
* Improves results when selecting iChat message text.
* Improves spacing when using Option-Return in an iChat message.
* Improves results when transferring file names via iChat that begin with a ">" character.

Application Enhancements

* Improves compatibility for the HP Communications application.
* Provides a zero all data feature in Disk Utility, for supported hard disks.
* Improves iPhoto slide show function on some systems which use ATI Rage 128 graphics accelerator chips.
* Allows for improved results with applications that switch emulated address spaces, such as Connectix Virtual PC.
* Improves compatibility for OpenGL-based software on some computers that use ATI Rage 128 graphic accelerator chips; improves reliability for OpenGL-based software while Screen Saver effects are enabled on some computers that use ATI Rage 128 graphic accelerator chips.
* Addresses a situation in which some animated GIFs could cause Preview to unexpectedly quit.
* Allows for improved display of fonts via the Microsoft Word Font Toolbar.
* Improves compatibility with Netopia Timbuktu for TCP/IP connections.
* Improves compatibility for Image Capture when downloading large AVI files from some digital cameras.
* US English spellings are no longer interpreted as correctly spelled when using the built-in British English Dictionary.
* Improves compatibility for Mail when accessing accounts, such as AT&T Broadband, which require SSL v2 or v3 over SMTP.
* Addresses some situations in which the Mail application does not quit as expected.
* Addresses an issue in which Mail may become unresponsive when attaching certain kinds of JPEG files to a message.

Audio Enhancements

* Addresses a potential issue in which sound from some USB audio devices may "stutter" after waking from sleep.
* Addresses an issue in which iSub, when used with some third-party USB speakers, could produce static.
* Improves default reverb setting for applications which use QuickTime Musical Instruments.
* Addresses an issue in which audio recorded from a USB device with a sample rate of 48k or 96k may include distortion.
* Improves results when recording from a USB microphone with a sample rate of 11.025k or 22.050k.
* Addresses an issue in which a MIDI device may unexpectedly fail to be recognized, when several devices are connected.
* Refines MIDI device support by removing compatibility for MIDI devices that are connected via a serial port (which Apple has not shipped with machines for several years).

Printing and Print Center Enhancements

* Improves ability of Print Center to automatically find and add USB printers.
* Enhances default printer selection process after network printers have automatically been added.
* Printers configured with a Rendezvous name are now selectable from a Print dialog window.
* Improves notifications when a job cannot be printed due to a stopped print queue.

Other Enhancements

* Improves keyboard navigation behavior in Column view of Finder.
* Addresses an issue in which the computer could become unresponsive when configuring the Screen Effects preference pane.
* Addresses a situation in which the Dock may unexpectedly quit when attempting to display a hierarchical submenu while certain background tasks are in progress.
* Reduces instances on some computers in which keypresses are not detected by the "Are you sure you want to shut down your computer now?" dialog box when some applications are running.
* Addresses a potential kernel panic situation when disconnecting a USB hub from a Power Macintosh G3 (Blue and White) computer.
* Adds a Canadian English language spell checking dictionary.
* Addresses an issue in which Keychain items could become unusable or not allow password changes after a series of different applications request modifications to the item.
* Addresses an issue in which some Power Macintosh G3 computers may be unable to start up in verbose mode with Mac OS X 10.2.1.
* Addresses a potential issue in which some applications may not quit as expected after a USB device is disconnected.
* Addresses a potential issue in which playing certain system alert sounds could cause the Login window to appear.
* Includes OpenGL 1.4 which contains improvements for all systems.

totally_fly

Dec 19, 2002, 05:03 PM

[ neone have a vague idea of what some of the specific changes are?? ] edit: nvm i just saw the post above me

neways.. im not gonna update for a while.. actually im not gonna update till my mac crashes... (im in a competition with my friends who are certain their xp machines can stay on longer than my os x bot :) so i wont be getting this update for a while.. hehe)

Wes

Dec 19, 2002, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by RogueLdr

Wasn't the MDD fan issue covered w/ a firmware update?:confused:

RL

Supposedly, but with my MDD it made no difference. 10.2.3 is fine.

springscansing

Dec 19, 2002, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by rigor
Build is 6G30.

It reset my extras.rsrc, returning the blasted stripes.

The knowledge base document will show up soon enough..

Thanks. I have 6G26.. hopefully this one will leave my splendifeous Classic mode unbastardized. :-)

arn

Dec 19, 2002, 05:16 PM

so, I guess the question is .... is VPC 6 really faster under 10.2.3?

arn

SafariKC

Dec 19, 2002, 05:25 PM

It does feel a bit faster under 10.2.3 than it did in 10.2.2. The Video performance is smoother from what i can see.

KC

Originally posted by springscansing

Thanks. I have 6G26.. hopefully this one will leave my splendifeous Classic mode unbastardized. :-)

eric_n_dfw

Dec 19, 2002, 05:30 PM

* Improves compatibility for the HP Communications application.

10.2.2 and HPCommuntications.app were water and oil. It was so bad that I had to roll-back to 10.2.1. I really hope they got everything fixed here - but I'm waiting to hear the "okay" from HP and/or other HP users.

brogers

Dec 19, 2002, 05:31 PM

Is it just me or do the little red, orange and green jelly buttons look recessed or embedded in some of the Apple titanium Apps??? Look at Address Book, iSync, Back-up, iChat. Not sure why this would matter or if it is just my computer. Someone chime in if you have the same.

eric_n_dfw

Dec 19, 2002, 05:33 PM

# Addresses a potential kernel panic situation when disconnecting a USB hub from a Power Macintosh G3 (Blue and White) computer.

I've had this happen to me several time, but not just on hub removal. I had it happen by removing a CompactFlash reader (with no CF card).

Thank you Apple!

(And people say Apple doesn't care about us "legacy" machine owners.)

Falleron

Dec 19, 2002, 05:36 PM

Where is the download on the Apple site? I want to keep the update on my machine + therefore dont want to use software update.

Hemingray

Dec 19, 2002, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by brogers
Is it just me or do the little red, orange and green jelly buttons look recessed or embedded in some of the Apple titanium Apps??? Look at Address Book, iSync, Back-up, iChat. Not sure why this would matter or if it is just my computer. Someone chime in if you have the same.

LOL, I just checked my Address Book, iCal, iChat, and iTunes, and all my red/yellow/green buttons don't even show up anymore! (Looks kinda neat, actually...) Guess I'll have to wait for an updated Quicksilver Revised skin... :p

saabmp3

Dec 19, 2002, 05:36 PM

Haha, approximatly a 5 minute download here. I love OC-3 connects with an inet 2 connection to apple. It's optimizing now, so I'll have to see how it really works.

BEN

Codemonkey

Dec 19, 2002, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by brogers
Is it just me or do the little red, orange and green jelly buttons look recessed or embedded in some of the Apple titanium Apps??? Look at Address Book, iSync, Back-up, iChat. Not sure why this would matter or if it is just my computer. Someone chime in if you have the same.

Absolutely. Is this a case of them always looking like that and you just made me notice now? Or truly a subtle Aqua tweak?

They look extremely cool! Very different than the regular blobby ones.

eric_n_dfw

Dec 19, 2002, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by Codemonkey

Absolutely. Is this a case of them always looking like that and you just made me notice now? Or truly a subtle Aqua tweak?

They look extremely cool! Very different than the regular blobby ones.
Pictures! We want pictures!:D

MasterX (OSiX)

Dec 19, 2002, 06:03 PM

I opened iChat to check the new version (1.01) and IMMEDIATELY saw it. I am posting a JPEG to get the news out. I almost crapped my pants when i saw Canon USB Photo support since I was reallllly hoping to avoid a card reader if i get one.

(edit: i dont actually like these new buttons, and whish apple would get around to putting in some interface controls, not a priority, but i missed out when my bootleg themes for OS9 were gone)

MasterX (OSiX)

Dec 19, 2002, 06:06 PM

I'd like to note that apps which use custom window code (QuickTime, iPhoto, iTunes, etc) don't have this new tweak (as i expected)

btw i ordered an iPhoto book and they are all you could want and more (the box says "made on a macintosh"

Codemonkey

Dec 19, 2002, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

Pictures! We want pictures!:D

Wow. Heh. It's not THAT impressive. :-P

http://homepage.mac.com/codemonkey00/new-window-controls.gif

MasterX (OSiX)

Dec 19, 2002, 06:07 PM

and while i'm posting i'll note that WarCraft 3 runs a LOT faster now, and if you missed it we (OSX users) NOW HAVE OPENGL 1.4!!!

my other computer (iBOok) has weak iPhoto slide show performance, i'll check it out ASAP (they said Rage128 cards would get a boost in performance, compatability and iPhoto slideshows)

MasterX (OSiX)

Dec 19, 2002, 06:13 PM

for the sake of being thorough....

MasterX (OSiX)

Dec 19, 2002, 06:15 PM

sorry the image didnt attach for some reason

holmesf

Dec 19, 2002, 06:25 PM

Okay, my software update hasn't worked since I installed 10.2.1 for some reason! I click the install button and nothing happens :-(

Is there any other place I can get this update?

arn

Dec 19, 2002, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by holmesf
Okay, my software update hasn't worked since I installed 10.2.1 for some reason! I click the install button and nothing happens :-(

Is there any other place I can get this update?

Should show up here shortly: http://www.info.apple.com/support/downloads.html

arn

Choppaface

Dec 19, 2002, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by rigor
Build is 6G30.

It reset my extras.rsrc, returning the blasted stripes.

The knowledge base document will show up soon enough..

how does one get rid of the stripes now?

ryme4reson

Dec 19, 2002, 06:34 PM

I have a titanium theme applied to 10.2.2 and I have the same type of recessed buttons. I think it speeds things up, as far as less drawing and pulsating going on.

Str8edgepunker

Dec 19, 2002, 06:36 PM

Anyone got a spare BootX for 10.2.3? Send it to KB3ECP1@aol.com as an attachement. Somehow mine got destroyed during the update. Thank god for Mac OS 9 or I would be screwed big time. Hint Hint, Apple. I will never get 10.3.

shakespeare

Dec 19, 2002, 06:41 PM

Yes, good question. How do we get rid of the stripes? And how do we get and apply themes?

julzmon

Dec 19, 2002, 06:42 PM

I think those buttons are not ment to be like that. I think someone messed up big time. They are just missing the shaddows.

ryme4reson

Dec 19, 2002, 06:43 PM

My site has links to theme switchers, and themes.

http://homepage.mac.com/jamesk777/

check out the software page

jacinto45

Dec 19, 2002, 06:44 PM

This red/yellow/green dot thing is interesting. In iTunes, the old dots remain. I think the new ones, in addition to being "embedded" into the window, are also slightly closer together than the old.

Over Achiever

Dec 19, 2002, 06:49 PM

Wow...obsessing over the look of the dots...:rolleyes:

Bregalad

Dec 19, 2002, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by RogueLdr

Wasn't the MDD fan issue covered w/ a firmware update?:confused:

RL

If you're one of the unlucky ones with the cheap, high noise fans, no firmware update in the world can solve the problem. If they turn the fan speed down too much it'll cook the inside of your Mac.

I was in an Apple dealer on the weekend and got to hear the supposedly quiet model of MDD sitting there powered up but doing nothing. I wouldn't want it in the same room as me. We've got Pentium 4's at work in cheap generic cases that are only half as loud as the new Macs. I never thought I'd see the day... :(

foniks2020

Dec 19, 2002, 06:54 PM

I suggest using Themer Anche... get it on VT.

I use the Maggra theme. beautiful. I also use demetallifizer to get rid of Ti look for cocoa apps like iChat, calc, iCal. Too bad iTunes is carbon, worst offender of not supporting themes.

jnzed

Dec 19, 2002, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Falleron
Where is the download on the Apple site? I want to keep the update on my machine + therefore dont want to use software update.

Falleron

You can download the update to your desktop using Software Update. Its an option on one of the menus ... sorry i'm at work and don't remember exactly which one, but you should be able to find it easily.

Jeremy

foniks2020

Dec 19, 2002, 07:04 PM

Here's one with iCal demetallifized (APE plugin).

kenkooler

Dec 19, 2002, 07:05 PM

I'll post a feature that will help a lot of people to update...
Use the Download to Desktop feaure on Software Update, that way you can keep the files on your computer before Apple posts it on their site...

ryme4reson

Dec 19, 2002, 07:07 PM

Using the ti theme will cause the buttons to disappear on the iApps.

alset

Dec 19, 2002, 07:23 PM

So, I am digging and digging. Other than the buttons changing in a couple apps, what the heck took 50MB when I d/led this update? I read the KBase doc, but I don't see all those updates adding up to such a huge install. I'm not sure if I see some performance improvements all around (loading apps, windows, etc) or if that is my imagination.

Anyone have a better idea what we installed?

Dan

lungaretta

Dec 19, 2002, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by alset
So, I am digging and digging. Other than the buttons changing in a couple apps, what the heck took 50MB when I d/led this update? I read the KBase doc, but I don't see all those updates adding up to such a huge install. I'm not sure if I see some performance improvements all around (loading apps, windows, etc) or if that is my imagination.

Anyone have a better idea what we installed?

Dan

* US English spellings are no longer interpreted as correctly spelled when using the built-in British English Dictionary. HOORAY!!! :D

Hemingray

Dec 19, 2002, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by ryme4reson
Using the ti theme will cause the buttons to disappear on the iApps.

Well, good, I'm glad I'm not the only one who's having this problem. Guess we'll just have to wait for an update to the themes.

shadowfax

Dec 19, 2002, 07:46 PM

Results 93.60
System Info
Xbench Version 1.0b2
System Version 10.2.2
Physical RAM 1024 MB
Processor PowerPC,G4@0 [1000 MHz]
CPU Test 121.92
GCD Recursion 105.00 4.10 Mops/sec
Floating Point Basic 131.47 113.76 Mflop/sec
AltiVec Basic 136.80 706.13 Mflop/sec
Floating Point Library 114.40 5.14 Mops/sec
Thread Test 70.84
Computation 63.95 515.21 Kops/sec, 4 threads
Memory Contention 81.37 257.38 MB/sec, 2 threads
Lock Contention 67.20 843.54 Klocks/sec, 4 threads
Memory Test 113.13
System 122.21
Allocate 120.55 63.42 Kalloc/sec
Fill 184.82 1059.82 MB/sec
Copy 61.25 367.51 MB/sec
Stream 104.06
Copy 103.36 413.43 MB/sec [altivec]
Scale 104.21 416.85 MB/sec [altivec]
Add 106.49 425.95 MB/sec [altivec]
Triad 102.17 408.70 MB/sec [altivec]
Quartz Graphics Test 102.47
Line 122.98 3.13 Klines/sec [50% alpha]
Rectangle 68.80 4.84 Krects/sec [50% alpha]
Circle 94.77 2.18 Kcircles/sec [50% alpha]
Bezier 114.32 1.24 Kbeziers/sec [50% alpha]
Text 111.48 1.88 Kchars/sec
User Interface Test 106.69
Elements 106.69 34.14 refresh/sec
Disk Test 46.56
Sequential 42.51
Uncached Sequential Write 42.28 18.73 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Sequential Read 42.74 18.46 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Random 50.60
Uncached Random Write 46.16 10.85 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Random Read 55.04 11.06 MB/sec [256K blocks]

with 10.2.3:
Results 101.34
System Info
Xbench Version 1.0b2
System Version 10.2.3
Physical RAM 1024 MB
Processor PowerPC,G4@0 [1000 MHz]
CPU Test 123.78
GCD Recursion 107.45 4.20 Mops/sec
Floating Point Basic 136.55 118.17 Mflop/sec
AltiVec Basic 136.35 703.80 Mflop/sec
Floating Point Library 114.77 5.15 Mops/sec
Thread Test 76.01
Computation 64.01 515.67 Kops/sec, 4 threads
Memory Contention 96.55 305.39 MB/sec, 2 threads
Lock Contention 67.47 846.86 Klocks/sec, 4 threads
Memory Test 113.51
System 132.50
Allocate 122.83 64.61 Kalloc/sec
Fill 216.95 1244.05 MB/sec
Copy 57.72 346.31 MB/sec
Stream 94.52
Copy 95.15 380.61 MB/sec [altivec]
Scale 94.51 378.04 MB/sec [altivec]
Add 96.61 386.44 MB/sec [altivec]
Triad 91.81 367.24 MB/sec [altivec]
Quartz Graphics Test 126.16
Line 128.39 3.27 Klines/sec [50% alpha]
Rectangle 122.15 8.59 Krects/sec [50% alpha]
Circle 136.75 3.15 Kcircles/sec [50% alpha]
Bezier 122.72 1.33 Kbeziers/sec [50% alpha]
Text 120.82 2.03 Kchars/sec
User Interface Test 115.57
Elements 115.57 36.98 refresh/sec
Disk Test 53.04
Sequential 50.91
Uncached Sequential Write 49.74 22.04 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Sequential Read 52.09 22.50 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Random 55.16
Uncached Random Write 51.44 12.09 MB/sec [256K blocks]
Uncached Random Read 58.88 11.83 MB/sec [256K blocks]

god, it feels like those nVidia driver updates used to on my PC. serious graphics improvements. i like!

solvs

Dec 19, 2002, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by arn

Should show up here shortly: http://www.info.apple.com/support/downloads.html

arn

Actually it's already there. Just click on the 10.2.2 update. Combo if you're still running 10.2 or 10.2.1 (9 MB more).

amichalo

Dec 19, 2002, 08:03 PM

Forget 10.2.3...where is Chimera 0.7 already? ..

All things equal, even though this is a big update, all it seems to do is potentially remove your Red-yellow-green buttons...was this worth 51mb?

hoser

Dec 19, 2002, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by brogers
Is it just me or do the little red, orange and green jelly buttons look recessed or embedded in some of the Apple titanium Apps??? Look at Address Book, iSync, Back-up, iChat. Not sure why this would matter or if it is just my computer. Someone chime in if you have the same.

Yup, the titanium apps do have a more 3-d effect for the jelly buttons.

shadowfax

Dec 19, 2002, 08:16 PM

dear god, you people are fastidious. i can understand if you have 56K, but god, you people are whining because you haven't found enough new stuff. i think incremental updates are to (a) address problems and (b) increase performance. this update, i can already tell you, has done the latter. i'm disappointed i still can't print to a printer on a windows box, but hey, life goes on. i just like updates. apple isn't sitting there doping and thinking, "hey, let's make this minor update 50 MB just to dick with those macrumor folks!" this is a real update, i promise you. the GL stuff alone is impressive to me, i'm a sucker for graphics perfomance increases, and mine went up a good 15%--that's noticeable, let me tell you.

Choppaface

Dec 19, 2002, 08:49 PM

i still want gloved scrolling >_<

G4scott

Dec 19, 2002, 08:57 PM

I hope this really helps the graphics on my late 2001, 600mhz iBook. I think it has a rage 128, right? Although, with only 8mb of VRAM, I can't expect too much...

One thing that I've been having problems with that I'm not sure if the update will fix, is that when I un-plug my iBook when it's asleep, and then I wake it up, the mouse is sometimes erratic, the volume/brightness keys don't work, and if I go to the mouse control pane, the whole computer freezes. Other times, the mouse and keyboard won't respond at all, but I know the computer is running fine, because the animations are still going, the time is still changing, and everything else is normal. It's really annoying, seeing as that I am constantly on the go with my iBook, and I don't like to restart it every time I have to go somewhere...

BTW, I can avoid the problem by un-plugging the iBook while it's awake, but that's just not as fun :p

bobindashadows

Dec 19, 2002, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by Hemingray
FYI, the KBase doc is now up:

Networking, iChat and Modem Enhancements

...
* Improves results when transferring file names via iChat that begin with a ">" character.
...

NOOOO!!!!! NO MORE >boot files!!!!!!!!!!!!! *cries* they were sooo much fun!

FOr those who don't know, before this update, if you sent a fellow iChat user a file called >boot, it kicked them off their AIM and rendezvous (i think) connections. The "waiting for other person to accept" thing didn't show up or anything. The other person sometimes didn't even see who did it. it only worked over AIM when i tried it, though it might've worked on rendezvous and it was just acting funny. This ruined everything. Boo apple! Boycott the update everyone! Keep the boot bug! Chant it! Keep the boot bug! Keep the boot bug! Keep the boot bug! Keep the boot bug!

richie

Dec 19, 2002, 09:30 PM

I think whoever said the thing about missing shadows explaining the 'recessed buttons' in Cocoa Metal apps was right.. they look out of place both in terms of positioning and style, seems like someone at Apple just forgot to add the shadow masks. At least, I hope that's the case, because the new, inconsistent, buttons, do nothing for me. :)

ilovemyimac

Dec 19, 2002, 09:32 PM

Does anyone know if this fixes the 10.2.2 incompatibility with the Casio QV3000-EX digital camera? This worked until 10.2.2 (with which it doesn't work, notwithstanding the claim on the iPhoto compatiblity list on the Apple website) and has been a great cause of frustration for me. Thanks.

ilovemyimac

Dec 19, 2002, 10:06 PM

I just upgraded to 10.2.3 and found a problem, small but annoying.
When the computer speaks to me (e.g., date or time), the voice always has a distinct electronic pop (like static) during the last word. This never happened before. Any ideas? Thanks.

nickgold

Dec 19, 2002, 10:15 PM

I gots me a Rage 128 AGP (not Pro) in my Rev A G4 450 Sawtooth.

Either I am hallucinating (a possibility), or graphics performance has been improved BIGTIME. For instance, scrolling up and down on this web page --- smooth like silk. I don't think it was like that an hour ago.

If only the HP slowdown issue that was introduced in 10.2.2 has been fixed... Any definitive comments from folks who clearly were experiencing the "issue?"

mpest

Dec 19, 2002, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by brogers
Is it just me or do the little red, orange and green jelly buttons look recessed or embedded in some of the Apple titanium Apps??? Look at Address Book, iSync, Back-up, iChat. Not sure why this would matter or if it is just my computer. Someone chime in if you have the same.

yeah definitely, it's wierd & I don't really like it. It looks like it got punched in the nose or something

veedubdrew

Dec 19, 2002, 10:28 PM

10.2.3, in addition to speeding everything up, has also remedied my HP Communications issue. I rebooted hours ago WITHOUT killing the HP program through Process Viewer, and my iMac has yet to slow down at all. Marvelous!!:D

nickgold

Dec 19, 2002, 10:34 PM

Whoa, another _apparent_ improvement -- IE 5.2.2 seems to be drawing pages to my screen MUCH faster than it used to. Again, I have a Rage 128 AGP. But I mean, it's VERY fast now, compared to what I remember -- it always struck me that IE's slowness at loading pages seemed to be a bit of a graphics drawing bug -- also noticable when a page would load, then completely disappear until you do a select all. Hopefully that issue has been resolved as well.

Only with Macs do 3 year old machines get FASTER with each new OS release. Windows can rot in he11... :D

Coca-Cola

Dec 19, 2002, 10:39 PM

I am thinking the apps without the recessed buttons are the ones due for an update in Jan. at the expo.

sparkleytone

Dec 19, 2002, 10:46 PM

seems as if the buttons are now a part of the user interface when using the metal look.

from interface builder...

Coca-Cola

Dec 19, 2002, 10:56 PM

My music sounds better on my little old iMac.

Steradian

Dec 19, 2002, 11:12 PM

Is your old Imac running 10? Maybe if your running 9 that's why it sounds better. I could be crazy to and call you crazy but i am not or am I...anyway I love the new sunken buttons they look kewl to me. But I know a few people who will be bother by this to no end... don't ask...
1 more thing :) did anyone notice the really small i chat scroll bar??? just wondering.
ps darn you shadowfax you beat me to it. I was gunna post my xbench scores before and after... o well the better LOTR fan won. :)
PowerBook G4 1ghz

Coca-Cola

Dec 19, 2002, 11:33 PM

sounds good even on streaming radio. Weirdness. I don't recall it sounding so clear. Will this computer ever die. I need an excuse to get another one and run folding @home on this.

Codemonkey

Dec 19, 2002, 11:46 PM

I'm just going to try reinstalling, but it bounces twice and crashes.

OS 10.2.3, Snow iMac 600.

Coca-Cola

Dec 19, 2002, 11:57 PM

for iSync to be a non beta release, before even messing with it. As for any alpha release of anything, forget about it.

skunk

Dec 20, 2002, 12:01 AM

All I've noticed, apart from the button thing, is that the Darwin kernel version has gone to 6.3 from 6.2.

ratspg

Dec 20, 2002, 12:21 AM

On and on we go, on the bandwaggon of OSx :) it keeps getting better....we cant ask for a zillion updates in a point release....but 10.2.3 is great = ) seems more stable than 10.2.2 did in the graphics area.

i cant wait for 10.3, lol actually i can....my audio seems weird with 10.2.3 though = ) lol

lots 'crack pop' sounds when someone comes online or goes off from ichat

sparkleytone

Dec 20, 2002, 12:56 AM

o
m
g

50MB was indeed worth the wait.

i have an iBook 600 with the Rage128 chipset.

anyone else who has the chipset...esp nickgold...try this.

resize your browser window...quickly. uh-oh. one of the major complaints about OS X is going out the window...

shadowfax

Dec 20, 2002, 01:07 AM

yeah, did you see my xbenches? like a 15% performance increase on the video, i am totally pepped, sparkley

ilovemyimac

Dec 20, 2002, 01:11 AM

I have an iMac 17 with whatever comes with it for video card and just upgraded to 10.2.3. I don't know what to say about the redraw of the browser when I resize it other than that it sucks. I grab the bottom right corner and resize the screen and wait literlaly 2 seconds for the window to follow the mouse. That is the same as before 10.2.3. My old 800 MHz Athlon XP machine never did anything like that. Is there something I'm missing because video performance is definitely not one of the highpoints of my Mac experience.

MacBandit

Dec 20, 2002, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
yeah, did you see my xbenches? like a 15% performance increase on the video, i am totally pepped, sparkley

I saw nothing but slowdowns with my Dual/GHz/DDR. Check out my post on my XBench thread.

Here's my latest test on the bottom of page 4.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11789&pagenumber=4

Here is my last test just over half the way down on page 3.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11789&perpage=25&pagenumber=3

shadowfax

Dec 20, 2002, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by MacBandit

I saw nothing but slowdowns with my Dual/GHz/DDR. Check out my post on my XBench thread.

Here's my latest test on the bottom of page 4.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11789&pagenumber=4

Here is my last test just over half the way down on page 3.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11789&perpage=25&pagenumber=3

ah, man, that sucks completely. i haven't repaired permissions myself, is that something i should do? i have done it at some point in my 1 month of mac ownership, but i can't even remember where that option is, lol. can't hurt, right? i'll pop it in help and see what it comes up with.

it's not that noticeable of a speed increase... i mean it's there, just pretty intangible. and it's on paper, as you can see, which is good. good luck with yours, sounds like a little quirk, which seems to be a bit common around here.

ratspg

Dec 20, 2002, 02:41 AM

I own the Mac, and I am 'root' or superuser all day, why cant i delete certain items at my leisure, and why does it always tell me i dont have permission to do a certain task?
and i always have to allow keychain to 'allow once' or 'allow always' ? i dont understand why i need to do this if i am the adminstrator? what should i do to fix this up? im sure its not a hard task, probably embarrased that im even asking ;) thanks = )

network23

Dec 20, 2002, 02:50 AM

For those who think the new button look is a mistake or missing shadows, I can almost guarantee they are not. Look at the metal edge at the bottom of the button, there's a highlight added there to give the impression that the buttons are recessed slightly.

Whether or not this look was meant to be released with this update is still unknown, but the look is deliberate and detailed. Personally, I like this look better. Now looking at the old style, the buttons appear to be floating over instead of resting on the windows.

shadowfax

Dec 20, 2002, 02:59 AM

Originally posted by ratspg
I own the Mac, and I am 'root' or superuser all day, why cant i delete certain items at my leisure, and why does it always tell me i dont have permission to do a certain task?
and i always have to allow keychain to 'allow once' or 'allow always' ? i dont understand why i need to do this if i am the adminstrator? what should i do to fix this up? im sure its not a hard task, probably embarrased that im even asking ;) thanks = )

i can almost guarantee you that you aren't root right now, or you probably wouldn't be asiking this. the root account is disabled in Mac OS X by default. i think you are just what you say--a system admin. that means you can install software and do all sorts of great stuff. but you can't delete the coreservices folder. this is a GOOD thing, you see? if administrators could do that without password prompting, think how easy it would be to write a malicious script and send it to someone who didn't even realize it?

but, OS X isn't totally fool-proof. if you really want, you can go into terminal as an administrator and type "sudo rm -rf /library" and get some more or less unpleasant experiences. i think that'll work. i can't imagine why not. i have deleted fink a few times myself. you have to do it from terminal because the folders are all owned by root. and it always works. "sudo" is the way apple has for you to be root for a single command or execution at a time. it's something very common in linux/unix.

shadowfax

Dec 20, 2002, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by network23
For those who think the new button look is a mistake or missing shadows, I can almost guarantee they are not. Look at the metal edge at the bottom of the button, there's a highlight added there to give the impression that the buttons are recessed slightly.

Whether or not this look was meant to be released with this update is still unknown, but the look is deliberate and detailed. Personally, I like this look better. Now looking at the old style, the buttons appear to be floating over instead of resting on the windows.

it's fine, i guess, but sheesh. my iTunes looks normal and my iChat has the recessed buttons. i would much prefer continuity.

buseman

Dec 20, 2002, 04:54 AM

hmm... strange. iTunes 3.0.1 appeared in software update after installing 10.2.3. its alredy installed of course

:confused:

Edit: only happens when using non-english language

mangoman

Dec 20, 2002, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by buseman
hmm... strange. iTunes 3.0.1 appeared in software update after installing 10.2.3. its alredy installed of course

:confused:

Edit: only happens when using non-english language

Anybody else seeing this update appear after installing 10.2.3?

Or is buseman the Stwange Wanger?

gropo

Dec 20, 2002, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by Shadowfax

i can almost guarantee you that you aren't root right now, or you probably wouldn't be asiking this. the root account is disabled in Mac OS X by default.Au contraire! Up until 4 months ago I was using my root account on a regular basis as well - at which point I realized that it was akin to riding a rice-rocket on the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway at 100mph wearing a thong and no helmet. TWICE I needed to reinstall the damn OS because I hadn't a clue what resource files or locations were causing my machine to simply display a blank blue screen. Root can be activated through the NetInfo Manager quite easily... Just assign a passwd and you're good to go!

mykuki

Dec 20, 2002, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by mangoman

Anybody else seeing this update appear after installing 10.2.3?

Or is buseman the Stwange Wanger?
actually i do. i just checked software update again and it offers me iTunes 3.0.1.
me too had already installed that before todays system update. it works like that too.

anyway i'm downloading the iTunes update right now and will come back after
a restart.

BTW i'm using non-english language (german) too, like the one who noticed this before.
(how could you know it only affects other languages?)

Rocketman

Dec 20, 2002, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by Tue12
Some wisdom: always wait about a week after the patch to update. So if there are any problems, you'll only be reading about it rather than flipping out dealing with it.

:)

I for one have consistently taken that good advise and been rewarded several times. On a couple of occasins I have read about other people having complete data corruption. Be patient, let the bleeding edge types test the update and IF actual benefits are reported, then update.

Nothing keeping you from downloading the update and waiting to install it.

Rocketman

http://v-serv.com/-upload/avatar.jpg

mangoman

Dec 20, 2002, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by mykuki

actually i do. i just checked software update again and it offers me iTunes 3.0.1.
me too had already installed that before todays system update. it works like that too.

anyway i'm downloading the iTunes update right now and will come back after
a restart.

BTW i'm using non-english language (german) too, like the one who noticed this before.
(how could you know it only affects other languages?)

Wait a sec'. I just realized that iTunes 3.0.1 came out in September. Must be an update fer ya'll funny language foreigner types. :D

mykuki

Dec 20, 2002, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by mangoman

Wait a sec'. I just realized that iTunes 3.0.1 came out in September. Must be an update fer ya'll funny language foreigner types. :D

you'll even double-:D when i tell you that even after downloading/installing and a restart software update still offers me iTunes 3.0.1.

the good thing is that this is a chance that we might get 10.2.4 very very soon.
and if they repair our funny language software updater they might as well throw in some other bugfixes....;)

anyone else experiencing continuous iTunes updates? Keep your eyes open guys, it's not that apple is getting on with iTunes that fast. Check the numbers, its the same version you are installing the 10th time today!!! we funny tounges must stick together right now.:(

danman

Dec 20, 2002, 09:01 AM

Did the 'Serial Number:' in the About This Mac info box just get introduced with this build or was it in before... what's it all about: Apple starting to ID machines by hardware or sommat?

(to see your serial.. go to About This Mac, and click on the Version number to get the build, then click again to get the Serial Number...)

buseman

Dec 20, 2002, 09:01 AM

Maybe there is something wrong with the file that tells what has been installed to software update.app on the non-english 10.2.3

So for all of us foreigners - lets get ready for a lot of old software in the upcoming months:D

mangoman

Dec 20, 2002, 09:02 AM

HUh.... That is stwange. Wonder whazzzupwiddat? I've refreshed my SU window and I'm not seeing it ... then again, I do have my language setting on "Ugly, Ignorant American."

;)

mangoman

Dec 20, 2002, 09:07 AM

OK. You're right, I've got the Serial Number thing appearing: QT144OKBK...etc....

INTERESTING.

Bring on the Black Helicopters! Look under your coffee mugs! Don't fart in your car!

buseman

Dec 20, 2002, 09:17 AM

the serial number thing in about this mac has always been around

mangoman

Dec 20, 2002, 09:19 AM

Awwwww. I was hopin' to start a RUMOR!

:p

mykuki

Dec 20, 2002, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by buseman
Maybe there is something wrong with the file that tells what has been installed to software update.app on the non-english 10.2.3

So for all of us foreigners - lets get ready for a lot of old software in the upcoming months:D

i simply switched my language to english in my prefs and after quitting and restarting the pref pane iTunes disappeared from the updates list.
switching first to netherlands and after then back to german both brought back iTunes in the SWupdater. strange but i can live with that for the next days.

wish you all a nice and warm christmas.

MacBandit

Dec 20, 2002, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by mykuki

i simply switched my language to english in my prefs and after quitting and restarting the pref pane iTunes disappeared from the updates list.
switching first to netherlands and after then back to german both brought back iTunes in the SWupdater. strange but i can live with that for the next days.

wish you all a nice and warm christmas.

Why don't you just click on it to select it then choose make inactive from the update menu.

To all of you people obsessed about the buttons.

GET A LIFE!!!

:D

skunk

Dec 20, 2002, 10:41 AM

No serial numbers here, on any of my 3 Macs (all updated – I'm THAT bleeding-edge!!). UPDATE: Actually I've just checked the iBook, and it DOES now have a serial no. My Cube and FP iMac are both clean installs of 10.2, whereas the iBook has the 10.2 update: is this the difference? Whassup with that?:confused: If it is black helicopter stuff, they're not very good at it! I guess I'll be using the 10.2 CD to do a clean install on the iBook: I prefer the anonymity!

MacBandit

Dec 20, 2002, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by skunk
No serial numbers here, on any of my 3 Macs (all updated – I'm THAT bleeding-edge!!).

There is on mine. You have to open up the About your Mac menu in the Apple Menu. Then you have to click on the area of the windwo where it says Version 10.2.3 it should then say Build 6G30 then click on it once more time and it should show a serial number.

mangoman

Dec 20, 2002, 10:53 AM

Nice avatar, Bandit.... Where'd ya get it?

skunk

Dec 20, 2002, 10:54 AM

I know the routine: see previous (edited) post...

MacBandit

Dec 20, 2002, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by skunk
I know the routine: see previous (edited) post...

My system had a pretty clean install of 10.2 also. Seeing how the machine wasn't even released until after they started shipping 10.2.

otsmyth

Dec 20, 2002, 11:02 AM

Underhttp://www.info.apple.com/usen/macosx/ (http://http://www.info.apple.com/usen/macosx/) , the link to 10.2.2 actually contains the 10.2.3 updater.:confused:

MacBandit

Dec 20, 2002, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by mangoman
Nice avatar, Bandit.... Where'd ya get it?

This is like the 10 bajillionth time I've answered this. :D You can get poster of it here (http://www.allposters.com/GetPoster.asp?APNum=333735&f=t&P=9&PP=13).

skunk

Dec 20, 2002, 11:02 AM

Well, something's obviously different between my installation and yours, MacB, but I can't see what.:confused:

sehix

Dec 20, 2002, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by danman
Did the 'Serial Number:' in the About This Mac info box just get introduced with this build or was it in before... what's it all about: Apple starting to ID machines by hardware or sommat?

The serial number has been in firmware, and accessible from the OS for quite a while. It started sometime after the B&W G3 systems.

theranch

Dec 20, 2002, 12:34 PM

Surprisingly this doesn't have anything to do with buttons. After installing on my home G4 everything worked fine but when I installed on my work G3 blue and white the computer won't finish starting up. I get a dialogue box that says that I need to restart.
Just thought that I would inform anyone getting ready to run this update through software update.
Good Luck!

ps my drive may have to be reinitialized now because Norton System works won't recover the drive.

Nipsy

Dec 20, 2002, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by theranch
Surprisingly this doesn't have anything to do with buttons. After installing on my home G4 everything worked fine but when I installed on my work G3 blue and white the computer won't finish starting up. I get a dialogue box that says that I need to restart.
Just thought that I would inform anyone getting ready to run this update through software update.
Good Luck!

ps my drive may have to be reinitialized now because Norton System works won't recover the drive.

What does a good utilty (DiskWarrior) have to say?

Norton has been the cause of as many problems as it has repaired, and is not really safe for X yet (especially as an installed app).

achmafooma

Dec 20, 2002, 02:33 PM

The serial number in the about window has been there a while. I first discovered it at some point in the 10.1.x era (I've been upgrading incrementally since 10.0.4). I don't know how long it was there before that.

It only works, however, on systems with the serial number in firmware. This includes the white iBooks, flat panel iMacs, Quicksilver G4s, and at least the newer tiBooks.

I honestly don't know at which point it started, but I can confirm that it has the serial on a 733mhz Quicksilver G4, a 500mhz white iBook, and a 550 mhz TiBook. I can also confirm that the beige G3 tower does NOT have it :-)

Anything between beige G3 and Quicksilver 733, who knows... But that's why there's a descrepancy, there are OS X compatible computers that were manufactured before Apple had the serial in the firmware.

Choppaface

Dec 20, 2002, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by ilovemyimac
Is there something I'm missing because video performance is definitely not one of the highpoints of my Mac experience.

i think the point is that you have to shell out 5 grand to get all the blinking lights and things working right he he :D

hobie

Dec 20, 2002, 05:22 PM

My finder keeps crashing now for some reason :(

Anyone else experienced that?

bobindashadows

Dec 20, 2002, 06:05 PM

As to the person who said that the kernel was downgraded from 6.3 to 6.2, i have 6.3 after the update. I use the Pearl custom theme and my iChat buttons disappeared. However, i think I have the system preferences "Appearance" theme on graphite which would cause this. I guess we're going to have to wait and see when apple releases the next update to find out if the recessed buttons were on purpose. Since they are definitely going to release an update to fix the Ti theme, we'll see if they forgot the drop shadow or what. Oh, and I'm on a quicksilver 867, and i do not have a serial number. It says in the Apple System Profiler "Customer Serial Number" and mine is blank next to it. I'm going to look for the plist or xml file with that information stored in it, in the unlikely event that's where it is.

Doctor Q

Dec 20, 2002, 06:08 PM

Addresses a potential issue in which playing certain system alert sounds could cause the Login window to appear.
That's a pretty odd bug. I guess I'm glad they fixed it, but I'm curious, from a programming perspective, how the difference betwen one system alert sound and another might cause such behavior. I guess we'll never know.

hsilver

Dec 20, 2002, 08:40 PM

Could someone pleae help me.

I installed 10.2.3 on G4 DP450 upgrading from 10.2.2. Restarted and went to Disk First Aid to repair permissions.

Everything was fine until I put computer to sleep, then it wouldn't wake up so I restarted again the countdown circle froze and got message in upper lefthand corner

sh-2.05a#

Have run Disk Warrior and Nortons from OS 9 but it keeps happening. Does anyone know what is happening and a possible solution.

(Since 10.1 have not been able to get many Apple programs like Stickie and IChat and Software Updater to work so I hoped repairing permissions might fix them.)

Thanks to anyone who has an explanation or suggestion.

ratspg

Dec 20, 2002, 11:19 PM

I've been having the same same same problem with my powerbook g4 all day......if i'm on ichat, spefically or so, when somebody IM's me or someone goes off or online, the speakers, 'click' and it pauses, and then i hear the sound, like its delayed or something, idont understand why!? if someone could help out , it would be greatly appreciated, thanks ;):D

rainman::|:|

Dec 20, 2002, 11:23 PM

Has anyone else noticed Netscape acting weird under 10.2.3? No crashes or anything, but windows take even *longer* to open, scrollbars turn sticky more often, sometimes the back button won't work on certain pages, sometimes links don't work. I think it's having, among other things, issues grabbing code from the servers. I'd like to think i'm imagining this, but it's happened a few times now... Netscape isn't the fastest or most stable of browsers, but it's never been this bad...

i'm thinking if Netscape doesn't do something to address this problem, like a good solid update, i may be *gasp* switching browsers in the near future :(

pnw

alex_ant

Dec 21, 2002, 12:07 AM

rainman::|:|

Dec 21, 2002, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by alex_ant

Why not switch to Mozilla?

Actually, that's where i started. i know they're based on the same source code, but i swear Mozilla doesn't have the java and plugin implimentation that Netscape has. Ah well, haven't used it in a long time, i may have to give it another go :) Besides, that little dragon is so cute...

pnw

cgtyoder

Dec 21, 2002, 12:26 AM

Well, I installed 10.2.3 on my 2 PowerMacs, (very similar config to the TiBook) and all went well*; however, when I installed on my 500MHz TiBook, the computer now hangs right before the login screen. Verbose mode doesn't give any useful info, AFAIK, and booting into safe mode (hold down shift) doesn't improve things. I was able to restore from a backup I made of my 10.2.2 system, and I tried again after that, but still no luck. Has this happened to anyone? Any ideas what I can do to fix this? TIA.

-Conrad

* I have been having problems with apps crashing (Entourage, Netscape) in 10.2.3 after waking from sleep, and even got a kernel panic within 1 day of installing 10.2.3.

shadowfax

Dec 21, 2002, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by paulwhannel
Has anyone else noticed Netscape acting weird under 10.2.3? No crashes or anything, but windows take even *longer* to open, scrollbars turn sticky more often, sometimes the back button won't work on certain pages, sometimes links don't work. I think it's having, among other things, issues grabbing code from the servers. I'd like to think i'm imagining this, but it's happened a few times now... Netscape isn't the fastest or most stable of browsers, but it's never been this bad...

i'm thinking if Netscape doesn't do something to address this problem, like a good solid update, i may be *gasp* switching browsers in the near future :(

pnw

Have you not used Chimera? it's hands down one of the best browsers i have ever used, second perhaps to Mozilla, especially if you have the guts to compile mozilla on your own computer. i have seen some incredible results from people who do that---INTENSE speed and stability. never done it on a mac. i would compile Chimera, but i don't want to mess with CVS and you can't get the source via FTP that i know of, nor do there seem to be any instructions for doing it with interface builder, which i would much rather use than freaking code warrior.

I dunno, it seems like there is a lot out there better than netscape, as exemplified by your problem.

shadowfax

Dec 21, 2002, 12:40 AM

Originally posted by cgtyoder
Well, I installed 10.2.3 on my 2 PowerMacs, (very similar config to the TiBook) and all went well*; however, when I installed on my 500MHz TiBook, the computer now hangs right before the login screen. Verbose mode doesn't give any useful info, AFAIK, and booting into safe mode (hold down shift) doesn't improve things. I was able to restore from a backup I made of my 10.2.2 system, and I tried again after that, but still no luck. Has this happened to anyone? Any ideas what I can do to fix this? TIA.

-Conrad

* I have been having problems with apps crashing (Entourage, Netscape) in 10.2.3 after waking from sleep, and even got a kernel panic within 1 day of installing 10.2.3.

that's odd, dude, i had like a freak kernel panic after putting it on my Ti 1Ghz.... well, i was trying to access the files on a windows computer i knew was there on the network but didn't realize the stinking internet connection firewall on XP was turned on on it.

anybody know why OS X handles mounted windows drives so horribly? if i restart the other computer or something before i unmount ("eject" for the maccies) the drive, my finder freezes like crap, and relaunching it doesn't generally help. OS X i deem the goddess (or god) of OSes, except in networking stability, where it sucks as much as every Windows AFTER and not including WinME. it seems like they could apply their finesse to such a noble endeavor--that's my only real criticism with apple, is that they go on to the next feature without perfecting one: i have seen this in printing, HUGELY in iChat... and of course as i say the networking.

Is there some setting, though, on networking, that i am missing?

sparkleytone

Dec 21, 2002, 01:28 AM

i am running into all sorts of problems now.

mainly if i am editing a toolbar...i cant drag anything to or from it...if i try to drag the current items...they just poof...

i cant drag anyone to my buddylist...i cant drag files to buddies...

copy and paste do not work at all...i have rebooted and repaired permissions multiple times.

hibitdatman

Dec 21, 2002, 07:55 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by RogueLdr

Wasn't the MDD fan issue covered w/ a firmware update?

RL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a word, No!

Check out the Apple Support pages for PowerMacs and go to the MDD discussion pages. Literally hundreds of complaints about the whining things! I know for a fact mine is often unberably loud, and certainly it cant currently be used for extended periords (kinda defeats OS X's long-running ability!)

IC

flashfil

Dec 21, 2002, 08:37 AM

my mirrored doors certainly quietened down since the last firmware update, but the railheaddesign.com tip of replacing the main fan made a world of difference.

Also Soldier of fortune 2 now works (before I got a message saying hat an Open GL compatable Grafix card was not detected).

My iChat seems to behave better, my HP printer is not dissapearing any more and a subtle speed diff in the finder. Well worth it if you ask me.

MacBandit

Dec 21, 2002, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by hibitdatman
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by RogueLdr

Wasn't the MDD fan issue covered w/ a firmware update?

RL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a word, No!

Check out the Apple Support pages for PowerMacs and go to the MDD discussion pages. Literally hundreds of complaints about the whining things! I know for a fact mine is often unberably loud, and certainly it cant currently be used for extended periords (kinda defeats OS X's long-running ability!)

IC

Mine has never been unbearably loud and I can hear the hard drive working anytime it accesses. It rarely maybe once in an hour steps the fan up about 1 notch. It has never ran the fan at full speed (except after a system update or the rom update) which I am unscientifically going to say is 6 steps up. It's only when it does the fan cycling as I described before after doing an install that it ever sounds like a vacuum cleaner. Overall I would say it's just slightly noisier then my B/WG3 with a Radeon card. Even when running a cpu intensive game it will only step up to the first notch for a minute and back down maybe every 10 minutes.

MasterX (OSiX)

Dec 21, 2002, 12:25 PM

I've been running OSX since the public beta and let me let you in on a little secret-

3rd parties have no idea WHAT THE HELL THEY'RE DOING

yeah, so if i was you i'd be weary everytime you need to run an installer to use an application, i wouldn't install things which mess with themes, i wouldn't install stuff which requires daemons (which didn't even work right until 10.2 came out, ex- Palm Desktop) and I sure as heck wouldn't install any haxies. If you have a PowerPC sub-G3, upgraded CPU, under 128MB ram or 4GB HDD, beta software which requires an installation or any haxies don't be suprised when bad things happen.

When OSX first came out, Apple designed it so that if they died (MS killed Apple, haha) 3rd parties would be able to continue the OS forever. Thust apple left out easily programmable features (10 lacked a volume control system if you recall). This turne dout VERY poorly and apple has changed their ideals- now they try their best to block all hacks into the OS. Themes would be an example. If apple wants someone to program deeper into the OS they'll work with them directly (such as when Palm needs to program an app which requires a daemon, the PalmDesktopBackground.app).

So kiddies, case in point: Aqua is the best looking UI on the planet, so don't think you're cool changing it. THe new buttons are ugly, so I bet they'll be going away real soon, and if you have some complaint (would like to see more appearence flexability) I think you know what to do:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/

As for those who didnt do anything like this and still got shafted by the update, I feel for you, OSX updates are rough sometimes, but that's why backing up is important. Lets you wipe the HD whenever OSX doesn't feel right. Yeah it sounds windows-esque but sometimes you get screwed. As for people with loud fans check xlr8yourmac.com they had an article on installing foam around the fans in earlier PowerMacs, perhpas that would help.

skunk

Dec 21, 2002, 02:31 PM

Are you saying "Daddy knows best"? "Best-looking UI on the planet" is a little subjective, don't you think? My wife hates it, for one. And those changed buttons ARE very irritating: Apple's own interface is inconsistent. It's not just a question of the "metallic" finish having one type and the non-metallic another. On iPhoto the buttons are not recessed, whereas on iCal, Address Book and iSync they are. What is going on? It's just half-assed. It may be a small point, but if Apple can't get the design right, what chance do 3rd parties have?:confused:

MarkW19

Dec 21, 2002, 04:21 PM

skunk

Dec 21, 2002, 04:33 PM

Exactly what I was saying above. It was mentioned earlier in this thread also.

flashfil

Dec 21, 2002, 04:39 PM

I just spoke to my mate who "hates" the new buttons. I've seen other people really get upset by them also. Are they precious or what - get out more. If you get that upset about them then you have too much time to waste!

skunk

Dec 21, 2002, 04:42 PM

I don't really care about the buttons one way or the other, but I think they should be consistent. And it's odd that some people have the serial number and some don't. My iBook has one, my Cube and FP iMac don't.

MacBandit

Dec 21, 2002, 06:31 PM

I could care less about consistency in appearance. As long as there are still three buttons there and they all still do the same functions I couldn't care if they were dangling tits in one window and apples, lemons, and limes in another.

sinclairZX81

Dec 22, 2002, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by MacBandit
I could care less about consistency in appearance. As long as there are still three buttons there and they all still do the same functions I couldn't care if they were dangling tits in one window and apples, lemons, and limes in another.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that your line of work/study is NOT interaction design or a related field.

shadowfax

Dec 22, 2002, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by sinclairZX81

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that your line of work/study is NOT interaction design or a related field.

hahaha! classic. Well, we can't all be ergonomists. the psychological effect of the button switch can't be that bad though. i mean, jeez, i had to check in to the local asylum to recover when i saw them, and now i am in a twelve step recovery program... on step 4, i get my mac back on step 7... oy! but seriously, i don't think too many people should flip. i mean, you'd have to be pretty obsessive compulsive to really care that much. of course, the fact that they ruin our haxies every release bothers me. XP doesn't do that--oh wait, yeah it does ;) . LOL

bidge

Dec 22, 2002, 03:11 AM

Has no one else tried out iCal, I've just tried it on three different computers and it is so much faster than it used to be, it loads quicker and is much more responsive,

Come on feedback on iCal

skunk

Dec 22, 2002, 03:24 AM

Still slow and clunky as hell, just like iPhoto.....:(
I can't say I've noticed ANY improvement ANYWHERE. Print Center is still buggy, iApps are still clunky, beachball is still spinning....What the hell took up that 50MB??? New buttons? For those with a dial-up connection, I'd say "Don't bother!":confused:

shadowfax

Dec 22, 2002, 12:16 PM

skunk

Dec 22, 2002, 12:44 PM

Yeah, it's now "upgraded" (I use the term loosely) to 6.3. Great:confused:

MacBandit

Dec 22, 2002, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by sinclairZX81

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that your line of work/study is NOT interaction design or a related field.

No I am not at the moment but I have a background in artistic design. My point is not that it is improper for them to do what they have done but that it doesn't effect work output which is what is important.

bobindashadows

Dec 22, 2002, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by skunk
Still slow and clunky as hell, just like iPhoto.....:(
I can't say I've noticed ANY improvement ANYWHERE. Print Center is still buggy, iApps are still clunky, beachball is still spinning....What the hell took up that 50MB??? New buttons? For those with a dial-up connection, I'd say "Don't bother!":confused:

You know, I'm having trouble figuring out if you just want to raise your post count or if you are just a whiny-A$$ B****. I mean seriously, listen to you! i see 5 posts on this page. First of all, we all realize that the buttons are screwed up and nobody really cares. The point of these updates are to try and correct some problems that lots of people are getting. How long did it take you to download? I understand some dialups have 2 hours at a time restrictions - that's why you can resume downloads with Software Update. Did that time heavily cut into your productivity? Did you get fired because your boss caught you upgrading in the background? What is the big deal? I've used OS X on a 400 iMac with 64 MB of PC100 since 10.0. Did i come on here and whine about how dreadful it was at times (nearly all the time)? no. Honestly - I don't find the iApps clunky. On this iMac. What are you on? Is your damn computer supported? Because mine isn't even supported and they don't run bad at all (I don't have 128 MB of ram) It takes a tad to get it started up but it isn't as if i have to wait while menus open like they used to. As for iCal - never used it, since my school schedule doesn't follow 15 minute increments, making setting it up very difficult. You have to go through each one and set it 5 minutes ahead, since you can't do it by anything smaller than 15 minutes. If i try to resize one of those custom times, then i have to go back and change it. It runs fast, it's just useless for me. And I doubt you have any understanding at all about the kernel, so don't even bother saying that the upgrade wasn't useful. How on earth do you know? Dude. Stop. Bitching.

shadowfax

Dec 22, 2002, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by MacBandit

No I am not at the moment but I have a background in artistic design. My point is not that it is improper for them to do what they have done but that it doesn't effect work output which is what is important.

well, yeah, i for one will admit that function should precede art, but i still think there is a great value to art, and that it is worth complaining over, if not in this case. i think the should have at least made the sunken things apply to all the metal apps or something. but i don't really care much, i'll bet money they will switch it back or add it to the other metal apps the next time they are updated, which with apple is rarely more than a month or 2

skunk

Dec 22, 2002, 03:02 PM

At the risk of being accused of trying to raise my post-count again (for what?) I would still like to know just what has been fixed by this enormous upgrade, as it hasn't fixed anything for me. Isn't that what these forums are for? To exchange information and views? So sorry if I'm taking up precious space here.

theranch

Dec 22, 2002, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by skunk
At the risk of being accused of trying to raise my post-count again (for what?) I would still like to know just what has been fixed by this enormous upgrade, as it hasn't fixed anything for me. Isn't that what these forums are for? To exchange information and views? So sorry if I'm taking up precious space here.
If you would read the first post regarding the upgrade you would see what has been updated by following the link at the bottom of that post.

skunk

Dec 22, 2002, 03:26 PM

Exactly my point. Despite what is claimed, I have noticed no improvements in these areas, and I wondered whether anyone else had. For such a big upgrade, few other people on this board have noted much positive improvement either. I'm curious, is all. I expect those poor sods with only a dial-up connection would like to know if it's worth the hassle of upgrading.

flashfil

Dec 22, 2002, 05:51 PM

An Upgrade is a whole new boating trip - an Update is simply addressing all the complaints people have had. I have personally noticed 3 or 4 things that are better on my lovely new mirrored doors mac and very little on my eMac (iCal is faster!) and nothing on my Powerbook or old iMac 333 (yeah I have a load of macs!). It's all down to what you have. If you were to take into consideration all the different configurations and set ups that are possible you would have a figure that would require a very patience person to write down (and a lot of gurning and toilet visits too!).
The fact that you expect to notice a massive increase in performance for a 51MB download is selfish and slap your wrists for suggesting so. Read the fixes - if they concern you do it - if not leave it - do it later when you have nothing better to do (like come here!) , but if you just want to play update guru with your 56k modem then expect to be at the back of the line. I'll shut up now.

shadowfax

Dec 22, 2002, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by skunk
Exactly my point. Despite what is claimed, I have noticed no improvements in these areas, and I wondered whether anyone else had. For such a big upgrade, few other people on this board have noted much positive improvement either. I'm curious, is all. I expect those poor sods with only a dial-up connection would like to know if it's worth the hassle of upgrading.

it's not worth the hassle if it takes 8 hours to download, no. but that's not really apple's problem. they make bug fixes, and if you are bothered by a bug, there's a chance this will fix it. if you have a bug that wasn't fixed, maybe you should notify them so they can fix it.

you may have noticed that it now has OpenGL 1.4. that's a pretty nice update if you give a hoot about video performance, which the entire system depends on heavily. i was having some problems with iChat closing unexpectedly that this update fixed, as well. if it is true that there is a new kernel under the hood, then that makes it worth it too (for me, at least).

the point is, maybe if you were less pessimistic, you would see some changes. you aren't the only one who's disappointed. i really wanted them to support printing to a windows PC over the network, and i don't have that. i'd also like a better way to look at people's away messages in iChat, not to mention a way to make my own profile conveniently. but why focus on that? iChat was crashing earlier, and now it's at least stable. and my graphics are 15% better, and i would imagine that if you have a GL supporting vid card this thing would be convenient at least.

anyhow, peace out, there is no call for 56K users to get this; they won't be any closer to saving the world.

Doctor Q

Dec 22, 2002, 08:24 PM

Maybe we should suggest to Apple that they let people walk into any Apple Store with their Mac, plug it into an Ethernet port, and install any available updates over the line.

skunk

Dec 23, 2002, 02:49 PM

I think perhaps a CD might be slightly more practical!!:rolleyes:

Codemonkey

Dec 23, 2002, 03:03 PM

Basically, if you like having a security risk (http://www.macmegasite.com//modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=539) sitting on your desk, don't bother upgrading. Seriously, it's not worth your time.

And, in case you can't tell...
http://homepage.mac.com/codemonkey00/sarcdummies.jpg

Codemonkey

Dec 23, 2002, 03:21 PM

OK, so I _almost_ regret that last post. It seems rather "bah humbug!"-ish. However, the graphic cracks me up, and my point still stands. I know we all want the OS updates to include a free coupon for a dual gig mobo and chips, but come _on_! It's just an update!

Merry Christmas!

shadowfax

Dec 23, 2002, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Codemonkey
Basically, if you like having a security risk (http://www.macmegasite.com//modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=539) sitting on your desk, don't bother upgrading. Seriously, it's not worth your time.

And, in case you can't tell...
http://homepage.mac.com/codemonkey00/sarcdummies.jpg

classic.

about the 56k thing, 56k is a symbol of the 20th century by now, and we are, you may notice, in the 21st. i wouldn't want apple to make something less thorough in the interest of size considerations for the "old world" of the internet. broadband is the way of the future, i (and everyone else in the corporate world) think that broadband is the way to go, the way of the future. If you have 56k, i don't look down on you or anything, but you should realize thatt by using that you are saying that "i know that most places on the internet these days are geared towards broadband, that downloads are ~30 times longer with 56k, and i still think it's all i need." that's probably true, but such a statement, i think, should make you a bit more stoic about this issue if you aren't already. if an OS update were "all that and more," they'd charge for it. this is free. it's not going to make your computer get the paper for you every morning and clean up after itself at the dinner table. if you use 56k, you either don't want to spend the money on something, or you like waiting all that time. which, i must say, is plenty cool. my best friend downloaded about 10 GB of music on a 33.6 modem with napster over a period of 6 months or so, just leaving it on all night. adaptation is a staple of humanity. unfortunately, so is whining, but i like to think we can overcome that one.

skunk

Dec 23, 2002, 03:59 PM

I have the luxury of a 1Mbit service, but there are many people, in the US as well, who do not. These forums (and MacFixIt, etc) should be where those unfortunates can go to find out if it's worth downloading or not, especially as most of these "bug-fixing" downloads often contain just as many new bugs.

gropo

Dec 23, 2002, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by bidge
Come on feedback on iCal Still loads pretty damn slow on me Sawtooth/512mb...

Codemonkey

Dec 23, 2002, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by gropo
Still loads pretty damn slow on me Sawtooth/512mb...

Yup, no visible change as far as I can see either. 384mb G4-450. Bigggest issue I have with it is window resizing. Twitchy is an understatement.

Marvenp

Dec 23, 2002, 05:30 PM

Been away from this discussion for a while and darn did it get interesting. After reading some of your posts, I feel I have to be the neutral voice of reason.

For those you arguing about the look of the buttons, you are both right. It really doesn't matter as it won't affect work production in any way so who the hell cares if they aren't consistent? But at the same time, one the things that "Stevey Boy" likes to brag about is how good OS X looks. If you are going to make that kind of boast, you should have your $#!t together.

As far as the upgrade goes, any improvement (no matter how slight) is a welcome change and I applaud Apple for constantly trying to make OS X better. For those of you bitching, ask yourself this, would you rather Apple just say this is as good as it's going to get, so like it or leave it. I mean seriously, how could any of you find fault with them trying to improve things. Let's see any of you write an entire OS and then try to support all of the older software (via classic) as well as all of the new stuff from all of the different developers out there without any flaws. Apple has one hell of hard task and I say let's give them a break.

Sound reasonable?

Marvenp

Dec 23, 2002, 05:54 PM

And while I'm at it, what's up with you guys anyway? Haven't any of you heard of DSL. Why the hell would anyone in this day and age still be using a dail-up connection? You sould like Windoze users. I used to have a dual ISDN connection and back then, I thought it was fast but I was paying out the @$$ for my phone bill every month. Now I have DSL line and I can't begin to tell you the joy. Incredible speed (in comparison). No more listening to stupid dail tones and waiting (with fingers crossed) to see if both channels connected properly. DSL is aways on 24/7. Unlimited access for about US$40.00 a month. I think it's well worth it.

STOP WAITING, GO OUT AND ORDER DSL NOW! then you won't be bitching about how long it takes to download Apple updates. I regularly download 100+ MB files in minutes.

Well that's my two cents. Happy Holidays to all. Now go out and have some fun.
:D

mangoman

Dec 23, 2002, 06:02 PM

I'm with Marvenp. Get broadband fercryinoutloud, or quit cryin'. I live in the sticks and I'VE got broadband for sub $40 a month. It's worth it. I wait for nothing as far as downloads go. And, yes, Apple is on the ball, so let's cut 'em some slack, eh?

Peace and chicken grease,

mangoman

Marvenp

Dec 23, 2002, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by flashfil
An Upgrade is a whole new boating trip - an Update is simply addressing all the complaints people have had. I have personally noticed 3 or 4 things that are better on my lovely new mirrored doors mac and very little on my eMac (iCal is faster!) and nothing on my Powerbook or old iMac 333 (yeah I have a load of macs!). It's all down to what you have. If you were to take into consideration all the different configurations and set ups that are possible you would have a figure that would require a very patience person to write down (and a lot of gurning and toilet visits too!).
The fact that you expect to notice a massive increase in performance for a 51MB download is selfish and slap your wrists for suggesting so. Read the fixes - if they concern you do it - if not leave it - do it later when you have nothing better to do (like come here!) , but if you just want to play update guru with your 56k modem then expect to be at the back of the line. I'll shut up now.

Couldn't have been said any better. I tried, but this is much better.

vniow

Dec 23, 2002, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by Marvenp
And while I'm at it, what's up with you guys anyway? Haven't any of you heard of DSL. Why the hell would anyone in this day and age still be using a dail-up connection?

1. It's not avalible in all areas where people live.

2. Not everybody can afford an extra $40 a month.

Codemonkey

Dec 23, 2002, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by edvniow

1. It's not avalible in all areas where people live.

2. Not everybody can afford an extra $40 a month.

True, especially internationally. And there are a crapload of users that still surf at 640x480 too.

However, the price point (in Canada anyway) is within 10 bucks of dialup in most cases, not $40 above what they'd be paying for dialup.

vniow

Dec 23, 2002, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by Codemonkey

However, the price point (in Canada anyway) is within 10 bucks of dialup in most cases, not $40 above what they'd be paying for dialup.

Yeah, it's about $20 more than dial-up here in the US (I should've said an extra $20 a month) but still sometimes people can't afford even that (assuming it's even avalible.)

mangoman

Dec 23, 2002, 06:24 PM

So what are we to say? Technology has a price. Some are blessed to partake, some aren't. Apple, meanwhile, is up to speed with technology. Good for them--don't fault 'em for it.

If you got a big pipeline, smoke 'em if ya got 'em. If not, be patient.

Codemonkey

Dec 23, 2002, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by mangoman
So what are we to say? ... Some are blessed to partake, some aren't. [snip]

LOL No sympathy at all!

rofl. That's ok. Me neither. After likely investing hundreds and probably thousands of dollars in Apple product to allofasudden go "Nup. The buck stops here, no high-speed this year!" then ya. To me if I didn't have high-speed then I may as well cancel the power as well (yes, a fast net connection means that much to my overally digital experience). Without high-speed: "digital photo album services", "web based email" and all those other goodies we all have all hover right around the supremely unenjoyable mark.

But I digress. One large-ish update as opposed to dozens upon dozens of irritating, intrusive piecemeal updates is definitely preferred for me.

Oh, and I don't know about anyone else here, but I HATE rebooting my box. I even cringe after I willingly partake in these necessary ones. Could you imagine rebooting every time a small update came down the pipe?

If you're a Windows user this isn't a dream, it's their grim reality.

"When'd you reboot last?"

"Well, I had a memory leak in some shareware I downloaded the other day.."

"What about before that?"

"The day before last I had a "securiy update" they told me I needed... what about you?"

"Oh, 37 days ago. :D"

shadowfax

Dec 23, 2002, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by Codemonkey
"Oh, 37 days ago. :D"

lol, i haven't managed over a week yet. KDE seems to crash my computer a bit too often. I hate starting up though, especially after a system freeze.

Marvenp

Dec 23, 2002, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by edvniow

1. It's not avalible in all areas where people live.

2. Not everybody can afford an extra $40 a month.

]

Guys you're missing the point. How much do you think you spend for being online for lenghty sessions. DSL pays for itself when you consider the money you'll be saving on phone bills. I can understand in the ares where it's not available but if it's only $20 more than what you're paying now, then I think that you'll recoup that $20 from a cheaper monthy phone bill.

And the extra benefit is... you'll able to surf limitlessly, exposing you to more opportunities and more and/or better information. You may have to sacrifice a little but I'm sure you could think of ways to come up with $40 or even $60 a month. It just depends on your priorities. How much is your time worth? If surfing is important to you, then you'll find a way to make the cash. It's just that simple.

Sorry if this soundly a little preachy.

shadowfax

Dec 23, 2002, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by edvniow

1. It's not avalible in all areas where people live.

2. Not everybody can afford an extra $40 a month.

apple is not responsible for people unwilling to deal out the cash to get DSL/Cable. and while there are a lot of people who can't get DSL because of it's flagrant range shortcomings, cable is generally faster, more widely available, and about the same price. it should be manageable. OS X is for people who spent a pretty decent amount of money on their macs--powermacs, powerbooks, iMacs, iBooks... to spend all that money and balk on the feature that makes your computer the most useful--broadband--seems a little strange to me. shoot, try .mac with 56k. lol. that sounds like a lot of fun. how about a chimera nightly build... lol. none of that. if for some strange reason there is neither cable nor DSL in your area and you have the money to spend on it... my condolences to you, you've picked one of the worst places in america to live, tech-wise. you are part of an increasingly small minority, and, well, apple isn't for computer minorities (LOL!)

vniow

Dec 23, 2002, 09:36 PM

Look, I'm on a budget, plus no broadband of any kind is avalible where I live.
And even if it was, I would rather spend my extra $20 a month on something like a car or insurance or electricity or whaever. Those things are much more important than fast internet access.

Believe me, I would like nothing more than faster downloads but if you can't afford it, you can't get it.
So until I either: (assunming I move to some place where it's avalible)

1. Get more ca$h

2. Broadband drops down to at most $25 a month

Then I'm stuck with dial-up.

It's that simple.[

And I'm not one of those people earlier in the thread who were complaining about slow downloads from Apple (I didn't even know about that until I was told) I was simply pointing out why broadband isn't feasable for some people.

vniow

Dec 23, 2002, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
if for some strange reason there is neither cable nor DSL in your area and you have the money to spend on it... my condolences to you, you've picked one of the worst places in america to live,

True dat.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/ppphhht.gif

Maybe in a year I'll get out of this hellhole.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/rolleyes.gif

Marvenp

Dec 23, 2002, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by edvniow
Look, I'm on a budget, plus no broadband of any kind is avalible where I live.
And even if it was, I would rather spend my extra $20 a month on something like a car or insurance or electricity or whaever. Those things are much more important than fast internet access.

Believe me, I would like nothing more than faster downloads but if you can't afford it, you can't get it.
So until I either: (assunming I move to some place where it's avalible)

1. Get more ca$h

2. Broadband drops down to at most $25 a month

Then I'm stuck with dial-up.

It's that simple.[

And I'm not one of those people earlier in the thread who were complaining about slow downloads from Apple (I didn't even know about that until I was told) I was simply pointing out why broadband isn't feasable for some people.

What kind of car could you buy for $20 a month? These are rough times and even the rich are having to re-think their spending habits. I am in no way rich but I consider broadband an absolute neccessity so I make allowances for it by cutting ends elsewhere.

The time I save not having to wait online translates to more productivity for me. And besides, I don't get the same problems most people have when upgrading their OS probably because I keep ALL of my apps up to date. Thanks to broadband this is a less daunting task and fairly easy. That again translates to less down time and more productivity.

My computer is my investment and means of making money so the more efficient it runs, the better I am able to serve my clients; the better I serve my clients, the more money I make.

I'd say if this applies to anyone here, then DSL is a MUST! (Of course where available).

vniow

Dec 23, 2002, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by Marvenp
What kind of car could you buy for $20 a month? These are rough times and even the rich are having to re-think their spending habits. I am in no way rich but I consider broadband an absolute neccessity so I make allowances for it by cutting ends elsewhere.

The time I save not having to wait online translates to more productivity for me. And besides, I don't get the same problems most people have when upgrading their OS probably because I keep ALL of my apps up to date. Thanks to broadband this is a less daunting task and fairly easy. That again translates to less down time and more productivity.

My computer is my investment and means of making money so the more efficient it runs, the better I am able to serve my clients; the better I serve my clients, the more money I make.

I'd say if this applies to anyone here, then DSL is a MUST! (Of course where available).

I can completely understand the neccecity of broadband if your job depends on a computer and a fast internect connect, but mine doesn't so I can't justify spending an extra $240 a year for something I don't really need.
I would rather put that money back for car payments, groceries, friday nights out, dinner at a great resturaunt.....I could go on and on but the simple fact is, I don't need broadband and until I can either afford it while making a very minimal compromise or unless I absolutely need it for something essential to my job or something, I'm sticking with dial-up.

bobindashadows

Dec 23, 2002, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by Marvenp

What kind of car could you buy for $20 a month?

When i read the statement you refer to, I'm pretty darn sure that edvniow meant the money would go to keeping up car maintenence or maybe in addition to current car payments, etc. It isn't like once you buy (or lease) a car you never have to put another dollar into it. :eek:

As for broadband connections, out here your pretty much only option is cable. DSL took us 1 year - a WHOLE YEAR just to get the connection to work! And when it all came to fruition, it was half as fast as cable. They're both around $40 a month here. I live in a town that has so few people we aren't allowed to have our own post office!. We're forced to share a post office with a neighboring town! Can you imagine the shame? I think we have like 2,000 people or something. And we aren't small, it's pretty large. This is upstate new york, if u wonder. But we can get both DSL and Cable - though i have to admit some streets don't have cable lines going down them, but they are getting them now. A friend of mine 2 miles away, still within the limits, has been living off a 56K modem. But the phone lines are so old and terrible, the phone company themselves say the bandwidth is roughly equivalent to a 28.8 modem. However, cable lines just put up after years of begging.

I do not want to sound like i take this all for granted - I am really grateful to be able to afford both a macintosh computer and a high speed cable connection. I don't really need the speed for a business reason, since my "software company" is so small and unimportant nobody would notice if the web page disappeared (actually this is false. When i forgot to renew the domain name, a porn site bought it and i received one or two emails about it. www.scotiasoft.net is now home to mature black women)

My 2 cents

MacBandit

Dec 24, 2002, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by Marvenp
]

Guys you're missing the point. How much do you think you spend for being online for lenghty sessions. DSL pays for itself when you consider the money you'll be saving on phone bills. I can understand in the ares where it's not available but if it's only $20 more than what you're paying now, then I think that you'll recoup that $20 from a cheaper monthy phone bill.

And the extra benefit is... you'll able to surf limitlessly, exposing you to more opportunities and more and/or better information. You may have to sacrifice a little but I'm sure you could think of ways to come up with $40 or even $60 a month. It just depends on your priorities. How much is your time worth? If surfing is important to you, then you'll find a way to make the cash. It's just that simple.

Sorry if this soundly a little preachy.

What kind of phone service do you have that costs you for local calls over the basic price?

I'm not trying to argue with you I have a Cable Modem by the way that costs me $55/month. If I choose to have ATT Broadband Cable then it will go down $10/month. I just switch from ATT Broadband Cable because I'm saving $27/Month by using a dish for the same channels plus I have to receivers now and a TiVo. ATT really screwed with me. The dropped the $10/Month group discount I had that was for having there Cable Modem and Broadband TV they say now that it was only for the first year. Well after I got my sattelite and dropped ther cable tv I find that my Cable Modem went up $10/month. Turns out they didn't drop the package discount they just upped the base price by $5/month and made the equivalent discount $10/month. Doesn't matter though because I'm still saving $17/month after the extra cost incurred by the Cable Modem by switching to sattelite and I have so much more to boot.

I have priced DSL in my town and even if I can get it it will cost me $50/month. So for the extra $5/month I will stick with my Cable modem and have faster speeds and true no dial up. At work our DSL requires a dial up each morning when we turn on the computer. In my oppinion Cable Modem is far better then DSL. Faster/$ with less hassle and less problems due to distance etc..

I have been considering going back to my 56k modem though. I don't think I ever could I'm too spoiled but it would in no way cost me more then my normal monthly phone bill.

shadowfax

Dec 24, 2002, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by edvniow
Look, I'm on a budget, plus no broadband of any kind is avalible where I live.
And even if it was, I would rather spend my extra $20 a month on something like a car or insurance or electricity or whaever. Those things are much more important than fast internet access.

Believe me, I would like nothing more than faster downloads but if you can't afford it, you can't get it.
So until I either: (assunming I move to some place where it's avalible)

1. Get more ca$h

2. Broadband drops down to at most $25 a month

Then I'm stuck with dial-up.

It's that simple.[

And I'm not one of those people earlier in the thread who were complaining about slow downloads from Apple (I didn't even know about that until I was told) I was simply pointing out why broadband isn't feasable for some people.

hehe, i'd probably be in the same boat as you if it weren't for parents and then inevitably college... assuming there is wireless in the dorms. my dad works at dell, makes a decent living, at least enough to have broadband. ironically, he refuses to get full cable and only pays for the basic channels.

anyways, i'm not dissing you; as you say, you weren't complaining, and that's what annoys me. if you think it's worth complaining about, it's entirely in your hands to fix, so the one you should really be whining about is you, not apple. and it isn't that downloads are slow from apple, it's just that 56ks are slow by comparison with broadband.

it's all good.

sparkleytone

Dec 25, 2002, 01:07 PM

check it out :D

Mr. Dibbs

Dec 25, 2002, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax

i can almost guarantee you that you aren't root right now, or you probably wouldn't be asiking this. the root account is disabled in Mac OS X by default. i think you are just what you say--a system admin. that means you can install software and do all sorts of great stuff. but you can't delete the coreservices folder. this is a GOOD thing, you see? if administrators could do that without password prompting, think how easy it would be to write a malicious script and send it to someone who didn't even realize it?

but, OS X isn't totally fool-proof. if you really want, you can go into terminal as an administrator and type "sudo rm -rf /library" and get some more or less unpleasant experiences. i think that'll work. i can't imagine why not. i have deleted fink a few times myself. you have to do it from terminal because the folders are all owned by root. and it always works. "sudo" is the way apple has for you to be root for a single command or execution at a time. it's something very common in linux/unix.

It's not normally my policy to reply without reading the whole thread, but FYI, you can get into a super user shell in the terminal, provided you are an admin and have your admin password by typing the command "sudo -s" and then your password followed by the return key when prompted. it's also possible to enable the root account, I've done that on occasion when the OS was governed by NetInfo. but after Jaguar, NetInfo is just a slice of the directory pie. this is why after 10.1.5 logging into the OS as root becomes a messy businesss. for more infor on all this, I'd recommend O'Reilly publishing's "Mac OS X for UNIX Geeks" -Dibbs

yamadataro

Dec 26, 2002, 02:57 AM

Apple Japan is now offering 10.2.3 update CD for 2500 yen (approx. US$20) incl. S&H.

I wonder what was the deal with the lack of FTP server connection from the desktop in Japanese localized 10.2.2??? I didn't realize that until recently and that sucks big time!

non fiction

Dec 26, 2002, 04:13 AM

Originally posted by ilovemyimac
Does anyone know if this fixes the 10.2.2 incompatibility with the Casio QV3000-EX digital camera? This worked until 10.2.2 (with which it doesn't work, notwithstanding the claim on the iPhoto compatiblity list on the Apple website) and has been a great cause of frustration for me. Thanks.

Try looking at the casio website for a driver. I got a camera working a few weeks ago for a friend with 10.2.2 and I am sure it was a Casio model. Not sure which one. There was certainly no driver or app on the apple site. You may not be able to use it with iPhoto, but at least it will load as a disk on the desktop, and then you can manually add them to iPhoto.

Hope this helps.....

RHT3

Dec 26, 2002, 11:57 AM

Mac promises all manner of fixes and enhancements for OSX.whatever. Here's a tip, Apple: MAKE IT WORK WITH FINAL CUT PRO!

We're a 10-Mac media shop running (frequently simultaneously!): Photoshop, Illustrator, Quark, Cleaner, Avid, Maya, After Effects and miscellaneous Microsoft office-type apps on both OSX and OS9. These cohabitate on various G4s quite happily. My question is this: WHY DOES FINAL CUT PRO CRASH OSX (yes, even Jaguar) ALL THE TIME? Mac wrote it for Mac and it costs a grand! MAYA crashes less on the first rev written for Mac. Does Alias/Wavefront write UNIX code better than Apple?

I have two generations-old, OS 8-9 Macs with every PCI slot filled with aftermarket hardware. They are more stable! I am so sick of repairing and reinstalling and deleting render files on OSX.2 that I reloaded the OS9 version. Guess what? Much more stable!

I've been a Final Cut Pro user since version 1.0. I am a big fan. What is the DEAL with the OSX version? I've been a Mac user since 6.5 and I love the Aqua interface. I'm no Luddite. Can I PLEASE have both Aqua and my thousand-dollar software without resorting to a dual-boot workstation?

Please.

sparkleytone

Dec 26, 2002, 11:35 PM

who the **** is 'Mac' ??

Marvenp

Dec 27, 2002, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by RHT3
Mac promises all manner of fixes and enhancements for OSX.whatever. Here's a tip, Apple: MAKE IT WORK WITH FINAL CUT PRO!

We're a 10-Mac media shop running (frequently simultaneously!): Photoshop, Illustrator, Quark, Cleaner, Avid, Maya, After Effects and miscellaneous Microsoft office-type apps on both OSX and OS9. These cohabitate on various G4s quite happily. My question is this: WHY DOES FINAL CUT PRO CRASH OSX (yes, even Jaguar) ALL THE TIME? Mac wrote it for Mac and it costs a grand! MAYA crashes less on the first rev written for Mac. Does Alias/Wavefront write UNIX code better than Apple?

I have two generations-old, OS 8-9 Macs with every PCI slot filled with aftermarket hardware. They are more stable! I am so sick of repairing and reinstalling and deleting render files on OSX.2 that I reloaded the OS9 version. Guess what? Much more stable!

I've been a Final Cut Pro user since version 1.0. I am a big fan. What is the DEAL with the OSX version? I've been a Mac user since 6.5 and I love the Aqua interface. I'm no Luddite. Can I PLEASE have both Aqua and my thousand-dollar software without resorting to a dual-boot workstation?

Please.

Dude, you might want to check the compatibiliy of your other apps on OS X with FCP. I use FCP daily and I have a lot of plug-ins that make it even heavier like Boris Red, Boris Continnum, CGM plug-ins etc... and I've never have FCP crash on me. Athough at times it does seem a little sluggish running on my PowerBook when I'm out in the field, it has never crashed. I'm also running OS 10.2.3 without any problems and I have Duality 4.0 with themes installed. Maybe I'm just lucky.

MacBandit

Dec 27, 2002, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Marvenp

Dude, you might want to check the compatibiliy of your other apps on OS X with FCP. I use FCP daily and I have a lot of plug-ins that make it even heavier like Boris Red, Boris Continnum, CGM plug-ins etc... and I've never have FCP crash on me. Athough at times it does seem a little sluggish running on my PowerBook when I'm out in the field, it has never crashed. I'm also running OS 10.2.3 without any problems and I have Duality 4.0 with themes installed. Maybe I'm just lucky.

I think you are the norm. There is definitely so sort of confilct on RHT3's systems. He has some sort of system hack or he isn't installing on a clean system or something.

RHT3

Dec 27, 2002, 10:07 AM

I appreciate your commentary.

I'm a facility manager with over a decade of edit system and mac machine admin experience. Your laptop may work fine with FCP on OSX, and I won't dispute your claim of stability. Our G4 towers have been down to the reformat, reinstall OS, reinstall apps (FCP solo). They still crash.

FCP was written for the previous OS. Worked fine. PORTED to UNIX, naturally, it has bugs, as has the OS. This thread began with the lengthy list of improvements made by Apple for 10.2.3. None of those listed addressed FCP bugs. With the cost of FCP, written by Apple for Apple, I expect it to work better. Lists of similar complaints may be found on 2-pop.com.

Apologies for the earlier rant.

MacBandit

Dec 27, 2002, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by RHT3
I appreciate your commentary.

I'm a facility manager with over a decade of edit system and mac machine admin experience. Your laptop may work fine with FCP on OSX, and I won't dispute your claim of stability. Our G4 towers have been down to the reformat, reinstall OS, reinstall apps (FCP solo). They still crash.

FCP was written for the previous OS. Worked fine. PORTED to UNIX, naturally, it has bugs, as has the OS. This thread began with the lengthy list of improvements made by Apple for 10.2.3. None of those listed addressed FCP bugs. With the cost of FCP, written by Apple for Apple, I expect it to work better. Lists of similar complaints may be found on 2-pop.com.

Apologies for the earlier rant.

Sounds like you have things figured out. I hope Apple works things out for you soon. Isn't FCP do for an update soon?

e-coli

Dec 30, 2002, 01:07 PM

ugh...this is the worst update ever.

Very sloppy.

Unhappy. :mad:

shadowfax

Jan 5, 2003, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by e-coli
ugh...this is the worst update ever.

Very sloppy.

Unhappy. :mad:

i hope it comforts you to know that while it sucked for you, others of us are just basking in it. sucks for you.

incidentally, i was just getting pissed at my tibook because the fan was going crazy high and wouldn't shut off, and then i noticed my terminal had been, and still was, compiling for 8 minutes or so, which had the CPU at 100% usage, and i didn't even notice (other than from the fans, but there's a physical law about that somewhere). my god, i love this thing.

MacBandit

Jan 5, 2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by e-coli
ugh...this is the worst update ever.

Very sloppy.

Unhappy. :mad:

I've had absolutely no problems with the 10.2.3 update. Also Apple has made a press release about the new buttons. Apparently they were intentional and are here to stay. They will be updating several other programs to them in the future. I fully expect to see all the Pro programs to use the new buttons and also to get the brushed look.

mangoman

Jan 5, 2003, 02:15 PM

Same here. No probs at all with the update. Huh. Sometimes I don't understand why some have so many issues with updates. I keep a clean sys, don't hack with anything, never touch the terminal, run MacJanitor once a week or so, and fix permissions every once in a while.

Hey look, I'm not denying the fact that others have probs. I'm just curious as to Why.

My large stack of two pennies...

skunk

Jan 5, 2003, 07:50 PM

Well, just for the record, I have had 3 kernel panics and two freezes since "upgrading" to 10.2.3. And iPhoto keeps on crashing every time I open it. I too keep a clean system and use MacJanitor regularly. :mad:

mangoman

Jan 5, 2003, 07:52 PM

:confused:

Damn, brothah. I wish I had some easier answers for you (bowing towards Cupertino...)

Best of luck.

shadowfax

Jan 5, 2003, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by skunk
Well, just for the record, I have had 3 kernel panics and two freezes since "upgrading" to 10.2.3. And iPhoto keeps on crashing every time I open it. I too keep a clean system and use MacJanitor regularly. :mad:

i, on the other hand, have a simple solution: get a new apple, especially a high end laptop.

simple, of course, but not cheap.
it's too bad that they seem to have these sporadic things go wrong

they should let us compile the source code on our own machines with GCC 3.2, but nooo, they have to keep it all proprietary!

heh. well i'm sure it'd take about 7 hours to compile that update on the latest Powermac anyhow.

but chances are it'd be more unique to your system.

or it might not work just like before, and then you would have also wasted several hours compiling.

skunk

Jan 6, 2003, 04:24 AM

Are you making a point?

Jan 6, 2003, 06:48 AM

about apps that crash in osX... i made some bad experiences with illustrator 10 which crashes from time to time (usage daily - crashes weekly), iphoto kind of same, also explorer, word crashes especially when opening docs from pcs (...) and ical crashes when handling with repetitive events.

but osX itself never crashes...

my system (dual 450) is totally new installed two weeks ago and nothing really changed about the crashing apps...

funny thing is, that apple apps crash the most often, wellcome to the club rht3 :/

hope, that stuff get more stable!
.a

shadowfax

Jan 6, 2003, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by skunk
Are you making a point?

there was a joke in there at some point, if that qualifies.

seriously, though, i was saying that if we could get access to source code, we could compile it on our own machines, which would make things considerably more efficient than just getting precompiled binaries. i mean, if you use mozilla, you can cut load times in half, or more, just by downloading the source and taking out support for all hardware but that which you have on your comupter. surprisingly, that's much easier than you think.

skunk

Jan 6, 2003, 04:54 PM

In that case, I am with you on that...though it doesn't sound like the kind of thing I'd undertake lightly. I'm only an amateur :)

MacBandit

Jan 6, 2003, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax

there was a joke in there at some point, if that qualifies.

seriously, though, i was saying that if we could get access to source code, we could compile it on our own machines, which would make things considerably more efficient than just getting precompiled binaries. i mean, if you use mozilla, you can cut load times in half, or more, just by downloading the source and taking out support for all hardware but that which you have on your comupter. surprisingly, that's much easier than you think.

This could all just be done by program installers. They should just install needed resources for the computer it's being installed on.

Doctor Q

Jan 6, 2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by MacBandit
This could all just be done by program installers. They should just install needed resources for the computer it's being installed on.
I haven't seen the source code, so I'm wondering if "taking out support for all hardware but that which you have on your computer" is done by (1) making source code modifications or by (2) changing run-time configuration files. For example, both types of changes apply to the Apache web server and its use of modules.

If it's case (1), an installer couldn't do it since the code needs to be compiled after the environment is known. Instead of an installer, you'd have to use a "configure and make" process.

If it's case (2), an installer could do it. But then you could also do it by hand if somebody wrote the instructions. You wouldn't need a compiler, just an editor.

Am I understanding correctly, Shadowfax? Which case is it?

MacBandit

Jan 6, 2003, 06:42 PM

shadowfax

Jan 6, 2003, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by MacBandit

This could all just be done by program installers. They should just install needed resources for the computer it's being installed on.

well, the problem is, it has to be done specifically at the time of compiling. you could conceivably compile a different binary package for each combination of hardware, but that seems like it would add up to a hell of a lot of space. you could also have a package manager configure the source code, like fink for source packages, which is really what i had in mind, but then it takes hours to compile and install. for instance, i would guess that compiling OS X would take nearly a week on a low-end system, maybe 36-48 hours for a dual 1.25 GHz PM. no set of consumers would ever deal with that. the real problem, though, is that apple would never give customers a copy of proprietary source. that would mean that (a) you would be able to see it and (b) you would be able to modify it, neither of which they want.

shadowfax

Jan 6, 2003, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q

I haven't seen the source code, so I'm wondering if "taking out support for all hardware but that which you have on your computer" is done by (1) making source code modifications or by (2) changing run-time configuration files. For example, both types of changes apply to the Apache web server and its use of modules.

If it's case (1), an installer couldn't do it since the code needs to be compiled after the environment is known. Instead of an installer, you'd have to use a "configure and make" process.

If it's case (2), an installer could do it. But then you could also do it by hand if somebody wrote the instructions. You wouldn't need a compiler, just an editor.

Am I understanding correctly, Shadowfax? Which case is it?

you have it exactly. to improve system perforrmance, the code would need to be recompiled completely. a post-compile config file is a common thing, something that undoubtedly apple uses already, but it won't help system performance, because the binaries are still packed with support for all that old junk. for instance, your OS X has support for G3 and G4, but you more than likely don't have both on your system, and don't need support for both of them. your installer DOES configure the OS for your hardware, but for the most part it doesn't change any binaries. an exception to this would be seen in, say, the developer tools apple releases. apparently at the very end of the installation it compiles some headers that it needs to have in binary form optimized for your system, and it takes a good while to compile.

shadowfax

Jan 6, 2003, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by MacBandit

The point is either way Apple could right an installer program to do this.

either way they could, of course, but they never would, for the reasons i mentioned and many others, i am sure, but primarily because you would never wait to compile the OS, or even a 50 MB update to it, which would probably then require you to recompile at least a good bit of the system, and they don't want to let you look at their source code.

MacBandit

Jan 7, 2003, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by Shadowfax

well, the problem is, it has to be done specifically at the time of compiling. you could conceivably compile a different binary package for each combination of hardware, but that seems like it would add up to a hell of a lot of space. you could also have a package manager configure the source code, like fink for source packages, which is really what i had in mind, but then it takes hours to compile and install. for instance, i would guess that compiling OS X would take nearly a week on a low-end system, maybe 36-48 hours for a dual 1.25 GHz PM. no set of consumers would ever deal with that. the real problem, though, is that apple would never give customers a copy of proprietary source. that would mean that (a) you would be able to see it and (b) you would be able to modify it, neither of which they want.

I understand the problem with basically security for Apples product but I didn't have a handle or knowledge of the times involved for the recompile. You are correct for the average consumer (that being 98% of all computer users) this method just wouldn't be acceptable.

Another day and another thing learned. This is how every day should go for everyone.