Intel forms 'Apple' Group

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

eWeek reports (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1891873,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03119TX1K0000594) that Intel Corp. has formed an internal "Apple group".

This sort of internal organization is reportedly not uncommon for large customers of Intel, and is, of course, prompted by Apple's announcement that they will be switching to Intel processors (http://guides.macrumors.com/PowerPC_to_Intel_Transition) over the next few years.

While this official organization is new, Intel has been trying to lure Apple for some time:

Intel has had 'skunkwork' operations over the years to demonstrate technologies to potential customer Apple.

The article notes that Intel does make more than just processors, and one analyst speculates that Apple could use Intel motherboards and chipsets in the future.

[AoWolf]

So what does this mean?

[Lacero]

I think this group is formed to oversee TPM restrictions for Apple's operating system.

[Janakin]

Good to know there will be a dedicated team at Intel handling Apple procs, instead of considering Apple just a minor customer.

[steve_hill4]

This can only be a good thing for apple, as it demonstrates that intel are committed to offering the best service and technology for Mac OS. It shows they are serious in wanting to get the best out of the systems and pushing apple forward in sales.

Look at it this way, intel push apple forward, (who have exclusively intel chips), sales soar, intel gains a greater percentage of the marketplace. The kind of people Macs will begin to snap up are, like myself, AMD users. If that is the case, their sales will rise at the expense of AMD and not Wintel users.

[steve_hill4]

Good to know there will be a dedicated team at Intel handling Apple procs, instead of considering Apple just a minor customer.
Thing is, as a share of the computer market, apple may be relatively small now, but as prices drop, intel processors make it a level playing field and the "halo" effect creeps in more and more, Mac sales could become a lot more significant and so they once again get to 10-15% of the market, which would make them a huge player. Intel know this and want it to happen.

[Sun Baked]

Should be interesting...

Intel does need to react quick enough to Apple's needs for their custom chip business.

After taking care of Apple's fab needs for their chipsets.

Intel would probably like to grab a share of Apple's production business and assemble Apple modules and boards for Apple's products -- becoming an Apple supplier.

Much like the Hon Hai/Foxconn stamps we see on boards and modules at the moment in the machines.

Of course that part of the business could always stay with the current factories.

[iSaint]

I wonder if Apple sent any of their employees over to be a part of that team?

[Piarco]

I just hope that Apple never use Intel Graphics. Ever. That would be a dealbreaker for me.....

[BornAgainMac]

I wonder how big they will be compared to the Dull group?

[SPUY767]

Good to know there will be a dedicated team at Intel handling Apple procs, instead of considering Apple just a minor customer.

The reason that Intel has put an entire team on the Apple project, is that Intel realizes that unlike Microsoft, Apple actually puts something out there that utilizes the processor for something more than simply to handle program bloat and registry creep. Apple's applications are born to run, MS's are born to waddle. Intel is wise in seeing that Apple's software can show what Intel Hardware is truly capable of.

[SPUY767]

I wonder how big they will be compared to the Dull group?

Dull doesn't have a group, dull runs microsoft software, Intel cares bout the software, not the hardware. Dell buys Chips designed to run windows as best as is possible.

[bigandy]

seriously, the next person to say that bloody phrase about a certain laptop appearing next week, sometime after monday but before wednesday, deserves a slap.. it's just not funny any more. :(

i'm not convinced apple will use intel motherboards, because it would mean it would be far easier to build a cheap mac from components, something they want to avoid. i think they'll do a custom motherboard and have the sofware VERY tightly tied to the hardware...

[killemall4130]

hey, any of tou people know way apple get this new architecture, from the windows based company, or what ever all thats about... is it going to effect the applications that we mac's users can read, ie 3ds max also the gaming ie q4, battlefield 2 and nfs-most wanted. and what have you? any one know?
ide be very thankful!!!

[SPUY767]

hey, any of tou people know way apple get this new architecture, from the windows based company, or what ever all thats about... is it going to effect the applications that we mac's users can read, ie 3ds max also the gaming ie q4, battlefield 2 and nfs-most wanted. and what have you? any one know?
ide be very thankful!!!

First, intel is not a windows based company, they make processors, Microsoft, in fact, makes an Intel-Based operating system. Second, no, you won't be able to run windows applications. However, the likelihood that most developers will write Mac versions now that Apple is Using x86 processors is quite high.

[revjay]

This can only be a good thing for apple, as it demonstrates that intel are committed to offering the best service and technology for Mac OS. It shows they are serious in wanting to get the best out of the systems and pushing apple forward in sales...
Or at the very least...Intel is eager to seperate Apple from a good chunk of money.

[killemall4130]

First, intel is not a windows based company, they make processors, Microsoft, in fact, makes an Intel-Based operating system. Second, no, you won't be able to run windows applications. However, the likelihood that most developers will write Mac versions now that Apple is Using x86 processors is quite high.

cheers for the answer, so that a NO, but maybe, purhaps?
1 persontells me its windows, another tells me its not???
i originally thought it was microsoft myself, but som1 told me
nope ur wrong, its somthin i cud never understand (prob correct lol)

u dont hav a link that will inlightin me, i cant seen to find the information
i need?

[dr_lha]

However, the likelihood that most developers will write Mac versions now that Apple is Using x86 processors is quite high.

I don't get this logic. How will Apple switching to Intel chips make a developer more likely to port his application to Mac? The biggest difference in developing for Mac and Windows is how the code interacts with the Operating System and User Interface. Windows applications will need their User Interfaces to be re-written from scratch for example, to work on Mac.

As someone who codes Unix applications, I know that apart from the "endianness" of the CPU, it really doesn't matter what CPU the OS is on, applications can easily be ported across architectures if the code is well written, you just have to look at the Linux distributions for all the different architectures out there to know this, when running they all appear the same, despite the CPU.

I support major application for example that I ported to OS X from Solaris that took me about 5 hours to port due to the fact that it was written for X11/UNIX. To port this application to Windows or Cocoa would be a major effort, perhaps taking many months, and certainly beyond the scope of my funding.

In conclusion: Don't expect to see any major move of Windows Applications to Mac because of Intel, the only reason that will happen is if Mac's market share moves up considerably.

[MacIke]

I don't get this logic. How will Apple switching to Intel chips make a developer more likely to port his application to Mac? The biggest difference in developing for Mac and Windows is how the code interacts with the Operating System and User Interface. Windows applications will need their User Interfaces to be re-written from scratch for example, to work on Mac.

As someone who codes Unix applications, I know that apart from the "endianness" of the CPU, it really doesn't matter what CPU the OS is on, applications can easily be ported across architectures if the code is well written, you just have to look at the Linux distributions for all the different architectures out there to know this, when running they all appear the same, despite the CPU.

I support major application for example that I ported to OS X from Solaris that took me about 5 hours to port due to the fact that it was written for X11/UNIX. To port this application to Windows or Cocoa would be a major effort, perhaps taking many months, and certainly beyond the scope of my funding.

In conclusion: Don't expect to see any major move of Windows Applications to Mac because of Intel, the only reason that will happen is if Mac's market share moves up considerably.


While I am not a programmer at all... that has been my opnion. I think Apple has a good chance of greater market share. That will bring more programs.

Not to mention DARWINE.

[dr_lha]

While I am not a programmer at all... that has been my opnion. I think Apple has a good chance of greater market share. That will bring more programs.

Yes, there's no doubt that as Apple's Market Share goes up, more software will become available. What I'm saying is that the chip inside the Mac will not matter to the programmer so much. Its not like anyone codes in Machine Language any more.

Not to mention DARWINE.
As someone who has used Wine a lot on Linux, don't expect it to be a magic bullet. Yes, it will make a lot of Windows applications run, but they will look ugly and out of place on your Mac Desktop and often run unstably. Things are getting better, but honestly I would only use Wine to run an application if there was absolutely no other choice.

[zac4mac]

"hey, any of tou people know way apple get this new architecture, from the windows based company, or what ever all thats about... is it going to effect the applications that we mac's users can read, ie 3ds max also the gaming ie q4, battlefield 2 and nfs-most wanted. and what have you? any one know?
ide be very thankful!!!"

Would someone translate???? I don't think I've ever seen that much contiguous gibberish on these boards.

Z

[Bonte]

In conclusion: Don't expect to see any major move of Windows Applications to Mac because of Intel, the only reason that will happen is if Mac's market share moves up considerably.

If i remember ok there is developer software that allows fast porting to Mactel, its not Wine but a part is translated and a part emulated. Its not great coding but just fine to bring old software cost-effective to Mactel. For as far as i know all new software should be done in X-code that delivers Mac and Windows compatible code.

[Yvan256]

I'm not convinced apple will use intel motherboards, because it would mean it would be far easier to build a cheap mac from components, something they want to avoid. i think they'll do a custom motherboard and have the sofware VERY tightly tied to the hardware...

Yeah, but that custom, Apple-only motherboard could still be made by Intel. Of course, the headlines would then read "Apple to use Intel motherboards and processors", hence confusing the general public into thinking they can run out and buy an "Intel motherboard" and expect to be able to install OS X... Gotta love the media for that kind of (unwanted) misinformation. :rolleyes:

[Mainyehc]

only for powerbooks?

real work??? i dont do any of my real work on me mac (sux). thats the thing that most pisses me of bout apple, they will not get decent apps like 3ds max and whatever (lame). also all the so called games for the macs totally completly S U X.

we want Q4, Batlefield 2 and NFS-Most wanted...something at least to that standard.

im going to have to buy a new pc (wtf). i got a ibook g4 933mhz, and an ibook g3 before that. ( NOT A HAPPY MAC USER ) theres not enuff for me to get up 2 with a mac are any1 as far as i can see...but ahh noo mac users think that the macs are god sends... doods and chicks i cant see it.
plz explane how (inlightin me)

[Pardon me guys, for feeding the troll, but here it goes]

Here's some enlightenment... Have you ever tried using an iMac G5? I'm not even talking about the über-fast PowerMac G5 Quad, that is overkill compared with... iBooks :p... Even an iMac G5 will do just fine in most graphics-intensive apps (heck, provably even a last generation iBook G4 1.4GHz with some decent memory will suffice for most tasks!). About those other apps you mentioned, like 3d Studio Max, etc, you should be aware it's not exactly Apple's fault that they aren't avaliable for OS X! Apple is solely responsible for developing OS X itself, iLife, iWork and pro apps like Final Cut Studio or Aperture... Expect the number of 3rd party apps to increase over the next few years, as the Mac's market share increases!

However, I'm sorry, no games for you, boy! Quake III runs acceptably well on my machine (a 20'' iMac G5 1.8GHz w/ 1.25GB of RAM), but yeah, it's not exactly a gaming machine. And this is mainly because game developers don't optimize their titles for the PowerPC/OS X platform (besides the fact that Apple's consumer machines use crappy graphics cards)... And I don't expect things to get sooo much better with the switch to Intel processors, unless, as I mentioned before, the Mac's market share increases dramatically, and Apple starts cranking out killer machines (maybe their pro line will become more affordable, which would probably solve the graphics cards issue).

What I DO know is that Macs will be based on Intel processors (x86)...... (duh)! Don't you get it? Macs will be able to run Windows alongside with OS X, either by dual-booting, emulation, or virtualization. Which means, even if a specific software title isn't avaliable for OS X, you can always resort to Windows when necessary. Not that I'd want to do that myself, but I sure understand how that can be useful for some people, as it represents the best of both worlds: a bug and virus-free computing experience (OS X), with an extremely wide range of apps - and games, yeah - (Windows, and of course, OS X also, since there are thousands of nice apps avaliable already).

Want some more enlightenment?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=161550
http://www.hardmac.com/news/2005-11-20/#4756

And of course, the obvious Macrumors Guides (http://guides.macrumors.com), Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org), and... Google (http://www.google.com)!!

Try searching there for PowerPC, Mac OS, x86, Windows, Wintel, Apple, Microsoft, Intel, etc... Learn some history, some hard-facts, then ask the right questions... Which means, don't ask for enlightment, search for it on your own! There are ways of not making a fool of yourself, you know? And by the way, I sure hope you're not a M$ Fanboy™ trying to spread FUD around, as these forums definitely aren't the appropriate place to do so (don't know what FUD means? Add it to that list). :rolleyes:

Edit: By the way, my best friend, who is a Linux geek, is dyslexic, and that didn't keep him from educating himself about programming (and he's very good at that!), and the basics of the history and concepts of electronics and IT.
Oh, and don't forget: Microsoft != Intel, software != hardware, apples != oranges, etc... :p

[zac4mac]

Dooood

I wasn't attacking you personally, just your communication skills. Try writing a whole word correctly, if need be, try a spell checker. l33t haxor words are annoying.

BTW dyslexia sees stuff backwards, not inside out.

Peace

Z

[dr_lha]

If i remember ok there is developer software that allows fast porting to Mactel, its not Wine but a part is translated and a part emulated. Its not great coding but just fine to bring old software cost-effective to Mactel.
Not sure what you're referring to here.
For as far as i know all new software should be done in X-code that delivers Mac and Windows compatible code.
I think you're mixing up Windows and Intel, they're not the same thing. Xcode will now produce Mac software than runs on PPC Macs and Intel Macs. Xcode currently has no support for Windows.

[dr_lha]

The guy was clearly a troll however this comment:

BTW dyslexia sees stuff backwards, not inside out.

clearly shows you know jack-**** about dyslexia.

[Yvan256]

Would someone translate???? I don't think I've ever seen that much contiguous gibberish on these boards.

I'm happy to see I'm not the only one having problems reading his posts. Especially comments like "Apple won't bring 3DS"...? That guy should complain to 3DS for not porting their application to OS X, not the other way around! (How can Sony not have Metroid Prime for the PS2? Are they dumb or what?) ;)

[steve_hill4]

Or at the very least...Intel is eager to seperate Apple from a good chunk of money.
But in order for them to do that, they need apple to seperate consumers from large chunk of cash first. Mutually benefitial goals.

[Yvan256]

Not sure what you're referring to here.

I think you're mixing up Windows and Intel, they're not the same thing. Xcode will now produce Mac software than runs on PPC Macs and Intel Macs. Xcode currently has no support for Windows.

Wouldn't it kick ass, however, if Xcode could spit out Windows executable files? (think Quicktime and iTunes here... All Apple needs is some kind of installed library on Windows systems to translate OS X calls/functions into Windows calls/functions). That way, each Xcode-compiled Windows program wouldn't need 50MB of independent libraries. Tie those libraries with iTunes and make the program say "You need to have Quicktime and iTunes installed on this system to be able to run this Mac-compiled program" or something. I'm sure Apple's PR department would find a nice way of integrating everything, marketing-wise.

It would then mean someone using Xcode would spit out binaries for OS X/PPC, OS X/x86, Win32/x86. Why would people NOT use Xcode then? It would also mean programs for both platforms all the time (no more Windows-only programs). :cool:

[SPUY767]

I don't get this logic. How will Apple switching to Intel chips make a developer more likely to port his application to Mac? The biggest difference in developing for Mac and Windows is how the code interacts with the Operating System and User Interface. Windows applications will need their User Interfaces to be re-written from scratch for example, to work on Mac.

As someone who codes Unix applications, I know that apart from the "endianness" of the CPU, it really doesn't matter what CPU the OS is on, applications can easily be ported across architectures if the code is well written, you just have to look at the Linux distributions for all the different architectures out there to know this, when running they all appear the same, despite the CPU.

I support major application for example that I ported to OS X from Solaris that took me about 5 hours to port due to the fact that it was written for X11/UNIX. To port this application to Windows or Cocoa would be a major effort, perhaps taking many months, and certainly beyond the scope of my funding.

In conclusion: Don't expect to see any major move of Windows Applications to Mac because of Intel, the only reason that will happen is if Mac's market share moves up considerably.

Not exactly. If you code in Objective c, sure, but if you Code in C++, which most developers do, then you already know all the x86 specific calls and system optimizations whereas you would have known the PC exuivalents. A Game, for instance, would simply neem a minor re-writing of the Basic interface elements instead of an entire engine overhaul. A regular app would only need an interface built in Interface builder. The same Functions and whatnot could make calls to the new interface elements and 95% of the underlying code would remain the same. No matter what you may think, sure the OS is different, but what more does an OS do than ferry data between the user and the processor. . . this will make coding for the mac infinitely easier for people used to the x86 platform.

And to Killemall4130 have you ever heard of a little app called maya??? Possibly the all-around most powerful 3d software out there? Nuf said. If you have nothing constructive to add to the board, then shut it.

[TrenchMouth]

i think this is good news, while it may not be a huge surprise to people that how these sorts of deals work, i think it does a lot to put some mac users at ease. i am looking forward to intel based macs, second generation ones that is...

[dr_lha]

Wouldn't it kick ass, however, if Xcode could spit out Windows executable files? (think Quicktime and iTunes here... All Apple needs is some kind of installed library on Windows systems to translate OS X calls/functions into Windows calls/functions).
I assume that Apple has some sort Windows port of Carbon to run Quicktime and iTunes on Windows (both those apps are Carbon right, not Cocoa?). Internally they probably can do this.

As for Cocoa, well NeXTSTEP released a version of OpenSTEP that ran on top of Windows NT, which meant OpenSTEP programs could be ran on Windows. Its possible that Apple has been maintaining this so that Cocoa (which is basically the evolution of OpenSTEP) apps can be compiled and run on Windows.

Also there is GnuSTEP, which is a free reimplementation of OPENStep, already a bunch of apps can be compiled under Cocoa and GnuSTEP so they can be run on either a Mac or UNIX/X11 solution (see GnuSTEP's Mail application, which looks a lot like the pre-Tiger Mail.app when compiled under Cocoa).

[killemall4130]

[Pardon me guys, for feeding the troll, but here it goes]

Here's some enlightenment... Have you ever tried using an iMac G5? I'm not even talking about the über-fast PowerMac G5 Quad, that is overkill compared with... iBooks :p... Even an iMac G5 will do just fine in most graphics-intensive apps (heck, provably even a last generation iBook G4 1.4GHz with some decent memory will suffice for most tasks!). About those other apps you mentioned, like 3d Studio Max, etc, you should be aware it's not exactly Apple's fault that they aren't avaliable for OS X! Apple is solely responsible for developing OS X itself, iLife, iWork and pro apps like Final Cut Studio or Aperture... Expect the number of 3rd party apps to increase over the next few years, as the Mac's market share increases!

However, I'm sorry, no games for you, boy! Quake III runs acceptably well on my machine (a 20'' iMac G5 1.8GHz w/ 1.25GB of RAM), but yeah, it's not exactly a gaming machine. And this is mainly because game developers don't optimize their titles for the PowerPC/OS X platform (besides the fact that Apple's consumer machines use crappy graphics cards)... And I don't expect things to get sooo much better with the switch to Intel processors, unless, as I mentioned before, the Mac's market share increases dramatically, and Apple starts cranking out killer machines (maybe their pro line will become more affordable, which would probably solve the graphics cards issue).

What I DO know is that Macs will be based on Intel (x86)...... (duh)! Don't you get it? Macs will be able to run Windows alongside with OS X, either by dual-booting, emulation, or virtualization. Which means, even if a specific software title isn't avaliable for OS X, you can always resort to Windows when necessary. Not that I'd want to do that myself, but I sure understand how that can be useful for some people, as it represents the best of both worlds: a bug and virus-free computing experience (OS X), with an extremely wide range of apps - and games, yeah - (Windows, and of course, OS X also, since there are thousands of nice apps avaliable already).

Want some more enlightenment?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=161550
http://www.hardmac.com/news/2005-11-20/#4756

And of course, the obvious Macrumors Guides (http://guides.macrumors.com), Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org), and... Google (http://www.google.com)!!

Try searching there for PowerPC, Mac OS, x86, Windows, Wintel, Apple, Microsoft, Intel, etc... Learn some history, some hard-facts, then ask the right questions... Which means, don't ask for enlightment, search for it on your own! There are ways of not making a fool of yourself, you know? And by the way, I sure hope you're not a M$ Fanboy™ trying to spread FUD around, as these forums definitely aren't the appropriate place to do so (don't know what FUD means? Add it to that list). :rolleyes:

yea thanks for that.
ammm yeah. alot of what you talk about here, i aready know about. look... and im not even a techie, very far from it. but any Q i asked was i thought fairly simple.so i was kinda hopein for a yes or no answer.are something to that effect. but thanks anyway. i still dont feel inlightined:p

ok ofcourse i could of research else where as im doing at the moment, this place i thought was for Q's. ok it was more of a complaint and i have to say
i still stand by it.

and yes i cant spell for ****, so have a good laugh

[dr_lha]

Not exactly. If you code in Objective c, sure, but if you Code in C++, which most developers do, then you already know all the x86 specific calls and system optimizations whereas you would have known the PC exuivalents. A Game, for instance, would simply neem a minor re-writing of the Basic interface elements instead of an entire engine overhaul. A regular app would only need an interface built in Interface builder. The same Functions and whatnot could make calls to the new interface elements and 95% of the underlying code would remain the same. No matter what you may think, sure the OS is different, but what more does an OS do than ferry data between the user and the processor. . . this will make coding for the mac infinitely easier for people used to the x86 platform.
In the case where people are using processor specific stuff in their code, yes I agree with you. Most "Applications" won't, but I agree games will (although the biggest issue with games will be porting the graphics engines from DirectX to OpenGL, rather than the underlying code being ported).

I think you're oversimplifying porting of an app by saying that an app will just have to have a new interface built with Interface builder. For the majority of windows apps the Interface is pretty much all there is, the underlying code to accomplish the task is fairly simple and portable. Windows interfaces and interfaces built with Interface Builder operate in a fundamentally different way, so recoding the entire interface will be a major job.

I have done a lot of porting of major applications to various architectures. Don't underestimate the difficulty of porting anything to anything, its a major task. Even porting Xcode developed PPC code to Intel will not be without issues if the code is not written well. Poorly written code will be riddled with Endian assumptions that are a nightmare to iron out.

[killemall4130]

and ahhh wtf ok i got an ibook g4 (piece of ****) i know but, you talk like ive never even heard tell of the powermac g5 and and the rest of it
troll...ahhhh yea whatever it is yea sure im that, what like i care.
lame as hell

o yea, i dont know bout all the apps on the mac???? yea sure. its not like u cud mis any of them, cuz there is not that many. i do animation and graphics. what apples animation software cinema 4d (lame as hell).

dood apple has allways been a big let down in my eyes. and im not here for a battle
thats just the reality, no1 can disagree

[Mainyehc]

yea thanks for that.
ammm yeah. alot of what you talk about here, i aready know about. look... and im not even a techie, very far from it. but any Q i asked was i thought fairly simple.so i was kinda hopein for a yes or no answer.are something to that effect. but thanks anyway. i still dont feel inlightined:p

ok ofcourse i could of research else where as im doing at the moment, this place i thought was for Q's. ok it was more of a complaint and i have to say
i still stand by it.

and yes i cant spell for ******, so have a good laugh

Oh, I see... I understand. But you'll also have to understand that your questions were a bit OT, thus, you should try discussing them on one of those topics I've linked to. It's not bad will on my part, I just feel it's my duty as a forum user (even though that's the moderators' role, but anyway :rolleyes: ) to try and keep things the most polite and on-topic as possible. So, my short answer could've been something along these lines: "Nope, can't help you, since this specific topic isn't appropriate for answering to your question" :p

And I have to second some comments people made on your writing, hope you won't mind too much ;) ... your questions weren't that easy to answer, partly because they were barely understandable (and I'm not only talking about spelling, but also conceptual incoherence instead, like confusing software and hardware companies), but because, as I said, were off-topic. :cool:

[teddy07x]

There was once a boy in class called Intel, he had a good friend called Microsoft. One day Microsoft got jaleous over Intel, and they got in a fight when a new girl joined the class, Apple. Apple was the finest looking girl in school. EVERYBODY wanted her, including Intel. Microsoft knew this and tried to make intel jalous by flirting with AMD. One day Intel and Apple decided to get married. They had about 20 children, Rosetta, S3ED, Maya, OpenGL, etc etc.
Enough to make the rest of the family confused. Apple had some relatives from the PowerPC family, and Intel had his from x86.
It was always a mess when the two families met, fights, arguments and discussions over which family is the best. But the saga went on... an iceage came along and everybody but the IntelApple family died. Because only the AppleIntel family could keep warm at night with their thermonuclear heating devices mounted in their heads.

Thank God we have intel to keep us warm at night, and apple to make everyday life go easier. YingYang some might say... But I say, Think different.

[jimN]

Why is it news when an "analyst" states something blindingly obvious like, "intel hope to provide motherboards". How does one get to be an analyst, sounds like good work to me. At any rate the piece of the pie that intel must really be after is the iPod, that's where apple is the lead player and ships millions of units (in a month!). When there was that talk a couple of months ago about apple being after chips early this would make sense if Jobs could offer them something worth having and that would have to be the ipod. He did something similar with pixar and disney when he obviously used something he had as leverage to achieve his goals, if he wants the switch to work who knows what he's prepared to give up?

I for one would welcome this, we shouldn't lose anything on the iPod front but it would be nice to have chips before PC users, that would give us something else to be smug about (not that mac fans need any help feeling smug).

[killemall4130]

yo i am thankful for any feedback i get, and ok u dont understand what im talking about. im only tryin to learn some things (nothin wrong wit that)

dont call me british... im irish:mad:

[cait-sith]

the sky is also blue but they don't post that in the newspapers.

[killemall4130]

There was once a boy in class called Intel, he had a good friend called Microsoft. One day Microsoft got jaleous over Intel, and they got in a fight when a new girl joined the class, Apple. Apple was the finest looking girl in school. EVERYBODY wanted her, including Intel. Microsoft knew this and tried to make intel jalous by flirting with AMD. One day Intel and Apple decided to get married. They had about 20 children, Rosetta, S3ED, Maya, OpenGL, etc etc.
Enough to make the rest of the family confused. Apple had some relatives from the PowerPC family, and Intel had his from x86.
It was always a mess when the two families met, fights, arguments and discussions over which family is the best. But the saga went on... an iceage came along and everybody but the IntelApple family died. Because only the AppleIntel family could keep warm at night with their thermonuclear heating devices mounted in their heads.

think different...and what never give the users
Thank God we have intel to keep us warm at night, and apple to make everyday life go easier. YingYang some might say... But I say, Think different.

thats another perpect example why i dont like apple ^.think different...and what never give the users what they may want r NEED.
its all about how it looks (what ever happened to does the ****)

[granex]

As for Cocoa, well NeXTSTEP released a version of OpenSTEP that ran on top of Windows NT, which meant OpenSTEP programs could be ran on Windows. Its possible that Apple has been maintaining this so that Cocoa (which is basically the evolution of OpenSTEP) apps can be compiled and run on Windows.

Also there is GnuSTEP, which is a free reimplementation of OPENStep, already a bunch of apps can be compiled under Cocoa and GnuSTEP so they can be run on either a Mac or UNIX/X11 solution (see GnuSTEP's Mail application, which looks a lot like the pre-Tiger Mail.app when compiled under Cocoa).

Ah the capitalization issues. Which is why NeXT eventually just used all caps for everything (as in OPENSTEP). I still miss the days when it was NeXTStep. Mac folks around here get all bent out of shape with ITunes capitalization mistakes -- you ain't seen nothing until the company itself changes capitalization schemes every year.

[Mainyehc]

and ahhh wtf ok i got an ibook g4 (piece of ****) i know but, you talk like ive never even heard tell of the powermac g5 and and the rest of it
troll...ahhhh yea whatever it is yea sure im that, what like i care.
lame as hell


I know what it feels like to pay a premium of about $150-$300 (and $50, if we're talking about cheaper items like iPods) for Apple gear, since Apple uses a 1:1 currency conversion ratio between US$ and €, and sometimes even adds €100 on top of that... Probably also IVA/VAT (european value-added taxes) related, but heck, it's preety bad in here as it is...

But I CAN'T stress this enough: most people speculate that there'll be price drops once Intel-based Macs come out. And besides, buying a PC right now would be a waste of money, since it wouldn't be able to run OS X, at least without some serious hacking (and DON'T even try claiming that OS X is "lame as hell"). Why not wait for the Intel 'Books or Powermacs instead?

Oh, and by troll, us forum users mean "someone who either writes too much in HaX0r speak, who is a M$ fanboy, who spreads FUD, etc.". In your case the 1337 writing and the fact you deem a lot of stuff as being "lame as hell" without providing some further insight were probably what started this all. Care to explain why you think X-Y-Z app is "lame as hell"? Okay, don't do it, it'd be *off-topic*. If you wish to engage in civilized discussion, open a topic of your own and discuss software ;)

'nuff said :)

[steve_hill4]

yo i am thankful for any feedback i get, and ok u dont understand what im talking about. im only tryin to learn some things (nothin wrong wit that)

dont call me british... im irish:mad:
You almost make me feel ashamed to be Irish. I hope others here don't think the (incorrect) stereotype of thick Irishmen is true after reading your literacy. We have a fantastic educational record and you are ruining it in one fell swoop.

[steve_hill4]

There was once a boy in class called Intel, he had a good friend called Microsoft. One day Microsoft got jaleous over Intel, and they got in a fight when a new girl joined the class, Apple. Apple was the finest looking girl in school. EVERYBODY wanted her, including Intel. Microsoft knew this and tried to make intel jalous by flirting with AMD. One day Intel and Apple decided to get married. They had about 20 children, Rosetta, S3ED, Maya, OpenGL, etc etc.
Enough to make the rest of the family confused. Apple had some relatives from the PowerPC family, and Intel had his from x86.
It was always a mess when the two families met, fights, arguments and discussions over which family is the best. But the saga went on... an iceage came along and everybody but the IntelApple family died. Because only the AppleIntel family could keep warm at night with their thermonuclear heating devices mounted in their heads.

Thank God we have intel to keep us warm at night, and apple to make everyday life go easier. YingYang some might say... But I say, Think different.
Damn funny stuff, although you forgot to mention that intel was a jack the lad who also slept around with Dell, HP and numerous others on a regular basis, even after marrying Apple. :)

Apple remains loyal to intel after the first year or two together, intel continues to sleep around with the same whores who are in bed with AMD also.

[dr_lha]

Ah the capitalization issues. Which is why NeXT eventually just used all caps for everything (as in OPENSTEP). I still miss the days when it was NeXTStep. Mac folks around here get all bent out of shape with ITunes capitalization mistakes -- you ain't seen nothing until the company itself changes capitalization schemes every year.
Yeah, sorry - my shift key is clearly sticky in the wrong places. ;)

[SPUY767]

In the case where people are using processor specific stuff in their code, yes I agree with you. Most "Applications" won't, but I agree games will (although the biggest issue with games will be porting the graphics engines from DirectX to OpenGL, rather than the underlying code being ported).

I think you're oversimplifying porting of an app by saying that an app will just have to have a new interface built with Interface builder. For the majority of windows apps the Interface is pretty much all there is, the underlying code to accomplish the task is fairly simple and portable. Windows interfaces and interfaces built with Interface Builder operate in a fundamentally different way, so recoding the entire interface will be a major job.

I have done a lot of porting of major applications to various architectures. Don't underestimate the difficulty of porting anything to anything, its a major task. Even porting Xcode developed PPC code to Intel will not be without issues if the code is not written well. Poorly written code will be riddled with Endian assumptions that are a nightmare to iron out.

OOP should prevent this. Problem is, most people don't do OOP properly, they jumble too many things in single classes. The interface is not, by any stretch of the imagination, all there is to an app like excel or word. Word has its own moderately complex windowind toolkit I'm sure, but the bulk of the application is likely quite portable. I'll give you the OpenGL vs DirectX tho. and that a shame considering that OpenGL is superior and well. . . open. I remember the days when most 3d games gave you a choice, but now MS has squeezed the balls of the gaming industry and told them that if they release a game with OpenGL compatibility, then They can't put a Works With Windows sticker on it. That's neither here nor there. I may have oversimplified it and trivialized the port of an app, but in truth, I was never talking about porting an application, I was talking about new applications. And with some rather simple and handy coding practices one could make a windows and mac compatible app relatively painlessly.

[hayesk]

Not sure what you're referring to here.

I think you're mixing up Windows and Intel, they're not the same thing. Xcode will now produce Mac software than runs on PPC Macs and Intel Macs. Xcode currently has no support for Windows.

True, but Apple did release to developers "Yellow Box for Windows" - a pre-Cocoa runtime environment that ran on WinNT/95. It wouldn't take much work to ressurect it.

Alas, such a decision to offer this is more marketing than engineering. Apple could do it, but they won't. I'd like to see Apple offer free XCode for Windows, but the license would require anyone using it to release equivalent MacOS versions at the same time.

[teddy07x]

Damn funny stuff, although you forgot to mention that intel was a jack the lad who also slept around with Dell, HP and numerous others on a regular basis, even after marrying Apple. :)

Apple remains loyal to intel after the first year or two together, intel continues to sleep around with the same whores who are in bed with AMD also.

lmao! :D But Intel will always love Apple for her looks and easy goingness :D haha... Dell and HP and the others are just simple ego builders... So that Intel can be the strong man that he is... NOW AMD!! HE IS A ****ER!!! Trying to get in everybodys pants... :p With them sneaky saussage fingers... :D
It's like the nerd in class who read up on **** loads of sex and then at 30 was the stud of they year but quite not.... :p

Apple and Intel
haha

[stockscalper]

Putting an Intel processor in a Mac is like putting a Hyundai engine in a Mercedes.

[teddy07x]

Putting an Intel processor in a Mac is like putting a Hyundai engine in a Mercedes.

yeah, and consider Hyundai uses Honda engines, which are more reliable than Merc........ =)

[ZorPrime]

on topic, i think this is good news, while it may not be a huge surprise to people that how these sorts of deals work, i think it does a lot to put some mac users at ease. i am looking forward to intel based macs, second generation ones that is...

I completely agree. I think this is a very promising and significant announcement for a couple of reasons:

1. Like already stated; it signifies a material commitment to Apple, which is good for Mac users. In terms of research and development, it also could signify a major strategic initiative between Apple and Intel.

2. I noticed the reference to “Skunkworks”, to me, that’s a really significant insinuation; Lockheed’s Skunkworks is centered on the development of ultra-highly advanced research and technology. To specifically reference Skunkworks strongly suggests this announcement is research and development related… maybe we’re looking at a new AIM type relationship in which Apple and Intel will develop an entirely new breed of CPU. :cool:

I for one will be looking forward to the 3rd and beyond generations Intel based Mac…

[dr_lha]

True, but Apple did release to developers "Yellow Box for Windows" - a pre-Cocoa runtime environment that ran on WinNT/95. It wouldn't take much work to ressurect it.

Yes, this presumably was a continuation of the OPENSTEP environment that ran on Windows NT that I mentioned in a post above.

[bryanc]

As ZorPrime suggested, I think an Applegroup at Intel is extremely promising. There have been many discussions of how Intel has been frustrated with the combination of Microsoft and OEMs like Dell refusing to market CPU innovations (from MS's POV, CPU innovations are more support headaches, and from Dells POV unless it makes their computers cheaper or better at running Windows CPU innovations are worthless), and that Intel was courting Apple primarily as a vendor that will showcase their new technologies.

I expect Yonah iMacs and 'books at MWSF in a couple of months, to be followed shortly by Memrom-based machines, as these chips are already in the pipeline and they will keep Apple's machines competitive for the next couple of years. However, I expect we will see some very exciting new hardware emerging in the form of the 2008 MacIntels.

Interesting times indeed.

Cheers

[Sun Baked]

stockscalper: 0
teddy07x: 1

;)Seems, people are forgetting that Diamler-Chrysler decided to replace the sucky/problematic 2L engine in the Neon replacement with a Hyundai unit.

---

Nothing wrong with Intel forming a group to interact with Apple and meet their needs.

[sehix]

Yonah has turned out to be a complete joke - hot and slow. (Gee, anyone surprised?)

Has anyone recently checked Intel's announcement of Yonah/Merom power consumption with their various power-usage versions? As of yesterday?

Can't wait to fork out cash for a POS Apple Intel notebook that:

* Can't run any modern G5/Altivec software

Note the news, this morning, that Rosetta will now include Altivec support.

* Runs the vast majority of Mac software in emulation at a slower speed than current G4 laptops

Depends on the system running Rosetta, which is significantly better performing than traditional emulation. Rosetta isn't emulating a G3/G4, by the way.

* Doesn't have battery life any longer than current G4 laptops

Depends on the power draw of the rest of the motherboard; if you assume that the CPU is the sole criterion of power consumption, you're wrong.

So much for the lies Jobs told at WWDC...

Which lies? Serious charge, Ace.

I guess you shouldn't have tried to play hardball with IBM over the mobile 970 design Stevie boy! Now you're hardware line is F-ed, big time baby!

Apple on Intel, I'm soooo excited!!!

Try the decaf for a change.

[Tupring]

Yonah has turned out to be a complete joke - hot and slow. (Gee, anyone surprised?)

Can't wait to fork out cash for a POS Apple Intel notebook that:

* Can't run any modern G5/Altivec software

* Runs the vast majority of Mac software in emulation at a slower speed than current G4 laptops

* Doesn't have battery life any longer than current G4 laptops

So much for the lies Jobs told at WWDC...

I guess you shouldn't have tried to play hardball with IBM over the mobile 970 design Stevie boy! Now you're hardware line is F-ed, big time baby!

Apple on Intel, I'm soooo excited!!!Exactly how I feel about this...

[Tupring]

Dull doesn't have a group, dull runs microsoft software, Intel cares bout the software, not the hardware. Dell buys Chips designed to run windows as best as is possible.I think he meant that the Intel group is Dull :p

[Mainyehc]

Has anyone recently checked Intel's announcement of Yonah/Merom power consumption with their various power-usage versions? As of yesterday?

Note the news, this morning, that Rosetta will now include Altivec support.

What announcement, where? I checked Intel's Pressroom, and I couldn't find that. Perhaps you could give as a link, please? ;)

Edit: Oh, nevermind :o Just found that on Page 2 :p

[generik]

May the Lords bless the souls of those engineers who will be working OT over Christmas and New Year to bring us our Intel Macs in time for MWSF :D

[ZorPrime]

Note the news, this morning, that Rosetta will now include Altivec support.


this is great news! :) you wouldn't happen to have a link with the details of Rosetta's support of AltiVec, that would be cool to read.

Edit: Sorry to repeat the Link request, was beaten to it. :o

[EricNau]

Anybody know what an Apple PowerSchool is? I live near a big big set of Intel buildings, and near them is an Apple PowerSchool? I doubt these are related, but, ummm, maybe they are. Anybody know?

[AidenShaw]

Note the news, this morning, that Rosetta will now include Altivec support.
Link, please.... Not even Apple has posted this news.

BTW, support for Altivec is interesting, but not that important.

It would be fairly easy for QuickTransit to decode Altivec instructions to its intermediate language - since most Altivec instructions can be simply expressed as "do this operation on sets of 4 to 16 items that are side-by-side in memory".

For example,

int a[4], b[4], c[4];

c = altivec_add (a,b)

is the same as

int a[4], b[4], c[4], i;

for (i=0; i<4; i=i+1)
c[i] = a[i] + b[i];

=========================================================
and
int a[4096], b[4096], c[4096], i;

for (i=0; i<4096; i=i+4)
c[i] = altivec_add (a[i], b[i])

is the same as

int a[4096], b[4096], c[4096], i, j;

for (j=0; j<4096; j=j+4)
{
for (i=j; i<j+4; i=i+1)
c[i] = a[i] + b[i];
}

which is also the same as

int a[4096], b[4096], c[4096], i;

for (i=0; i<4096; i=i+1)
c[i] = a[i] + b[i];
In essence, that would simply convert a G4 or G5 instruction stream to a G3 instruction stream. Useful to run programs that *require* Altivec, but not necessarily any faster.

What would be noteworthy would be for QuickTransit to *generate* SSE2 instructions in its optimizing kernel. That would mean recognizing that the intermediate language describes parallel operations, and outputing SSE2 instructions to do them in parallel.

Something especially interesting about this, however, is that if the code generator could do that - it could generate SSE2 instructions for programs that didn't use Altivec originally!

In essence, it could turn a G3 into a G4 and at times run even faster than the original.

(QuickTransit technical brief (http://www.transitive.com/technology.htm))

[MacsRgr8]

Link, please.... Not even Apple has posted this news.



http://www.osx86project.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=68&Itemid=2

Still a rumor

[Multimedia]

I just hope that Apple never use Intel Graphics. Ever. That would be a dealbreaker for me.....You have got to be kidding. Faster is better no matter what graphics they put on the box.:p

Apple never puts graphics of any sort on their computers any more. Only the prominent Apple logo.

[Multimedia]

New Powerbooks Tuesday.That will be Tuesday January 10, 2006. Yes. :D :p :)

[Beardedfish]

I was under the impression that the latest Intel chips, like Yonah, were made power hungery. I saw someone mention earlier that there are new press releases on those chips, insinuating that they are doing better in that department. Where do I go to find this?

Since I have not seen this above mentioned press release I have to go on what I have read on Cnet and Ars. From those places it is really disconcerting to see that the first chips since Intel's public commitment to performance per wattage gains have come to be far from impressive. At the same time this happens, IBM comes out with the 970FX which apparently does a better job, though I have not seen any hard data, in that department than Apple lead us to believe.

I am not trying to flame the new Intel Mac arrangement, just showing concern about the fact that Intel's results have not yet matched Apple and their promises.

[ezekielrage_99]

Yonah has turned out to be a complete joke - hot and slow. (Gee, anyone surprised?)


It's a well know industry fact that Intel's first release of any consumer product is always rushed so there's always a few major bugs in it..... heat, speed, stability issues and insane overcloakability comes to mind :)

Remember the rushed release of the Celeron 300A??? The Intel guys got that one wrong because that processor could be clocked to 450Mhz no problems and it could easily outperform the 400Mhz Pentium equivelant.

Still I kind of feel that we are going to have one of those cool wow Apple moments in January....

[MacIke]

Anybody know what an Apple PowerSchool is? I live near a big big set of Intel buildings, and near them is an Apple PowerSchool? I doubt these are related, but, ummm, maybe they are. Anybody know?

Powerschool is a web based school solution for grades and such.

[EricNau]

Powerschool is a web based school solution for grades and such.

Maybe it's really a cover up, and in the basement is where all the Apple-Intel stuff takes place! :eek:

[Chundles]

No no no, you guys have it all wrong.

The Apple group formed by Intel are currently going through the sets of Buffy The Vampire Slayer looking through all the old books for some sort of incantation that will save their company from the Motorola Curse.

Intel is a big company and will resort to anything, including the occult to ensure that the processors they provide will not be forced down in speed, get stuck in development for nearly a year and then peter out at the top end of the scale with no possibility of improvement.

Hellboy is rumoured to be a member.

[MacinDoc]

You have got to be kidding. Faster is better no matter what graphics they put on the box.:p

Apple never puts graphics of any sort on their computers any more. Only the prominent Apple logo.
I think Piarco is talking about intel integrated on-board graphics, as opposed to a dedicated graphics processor/card...

[x86isslow]

At this point, even an Intel Extreme Gfx card is probably far faster than the 5200...

[generik]

That will be Tuesday January 10, 2006. Yes. :D :p :)

Look at my avatar :p

[generik]

I think Piarco is talking about intel integrated on-board graphics, as opposed to a dedicated graphics processor/card...

You speak of this integrated graphics thing as though it is a curse.. Warcraft III runs great on this, with medium resolution and medium detail.

Definitely kicks the crap out of a 5200. Just because it is "dedicated" doesn't make it good :rolleyes:

[weg]

However, the likelihood that most developers will write Mac versions now that Apple is Using x86 processors is quite high.

I don't think so. The major reason why Windows applications are not ported to the Mac is that the API is different, not that the processor is not the same. The latter problem can be overcome by a cross-compiler, while there are no approaches that solve the former.

[ezekielrage_99]

After reading the stuff about Intel Extreme Graphics and the GMA 900 I doubt very much that Apple will bother putting the Intel Intergrated graphics in the comercial product lines.

The Intel Intergrated Graphics looks very much the Windows product because it's all DirectX and Direct Draw hardware optimised, this means unless we get an Apple version of DirectX there probably wont be much benefits from using the hardware.

All though the GMA900 chipset is pretty average as any graphics chipest goes I would be interest if Apple put in Intel High Definition Audio in any Apple product.

I hope Apple goes with ATi X300 and Intel HD Audio paired with a Pentium M, that would be a pretty good start for Apple with the Intel swap.

[AidenShaw]

The Intel Intergrated Graphics looks very much the Windows product because it's all DirectX and Direct Draw hardware optimised, this means unless we get an Apple version of DirectX there probably wont be much benefits from using the hardware.
On the other hand, CoreImage requires a DirectX9 compatible graphics card.... :D

[Photorun]

Dull buys Chips designed to run windows as best as is possible.

Which, considering the OS, "best" is pretty craptacular.

[ezekielrage_99]

On the other hand, CoreImage requires a DirectX9 compatible graphics card.... :D

True but from a professional standpoint OpenGL still has more going for it than DirectX ever will. And really Apple has had more to do with OpenGL than DirectX and if it ain't broke why change?

[AidenShaw]

Which, considering the OS, "best" is pretty craptacular.
But good enough to get a Dell system at #5 in the Top500 supercomputers, the top Apple is #15. (VATech has dropped to #20)

[MrKahuna]

But good enough to get a Dell system at #5 in the Top500 supercomputers, the top Apple is #15. (VATech has dropped to #20)

Except that the Dell at #5 runs Linux not Windows. The top ( and only ) Windows computer is at #310. Microsoft has said that they intend to go after the Supercomputer market but they don't have the results to show for their effort yet.

[reflex]

I don't think so. The major reason why Windows applications are not ported to the Mac is that the API is different, not that the processor is not the same. The latter problem can be overcome by a cross-compiler, while there are no approaches that solve the former.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the software of the company I work for isn't ported partly because of the fact that we'd have to rewrite all x86 assembly code (quite a large part of our main program).

There are a number of other reasons that are at least as important, but the assembly code conversion at least wouldn't have to be done on an Intel Mac.

[reflex]

You speak of this integrated graphics thing as though it is a curse.. Warcraft III runs great on this, with medium resolution and medium detail.

Definitely kicks the crap out of a 5200. Just because it is "dedicated" doesn't make it good :rolleyes:

Intel Extreme graphics have a bad name because the first versions were crap. I don't know how they stack up now, but it's probably fairly decent. The 5200 on the other hand is quite possibly the worst dedicated graphics chip of recent times :)

The real curse with integrated graphics is that they usually take a portion of your system ram and they're usually included with cheap systems that don't have much ram to begin with. And Apple aren't known for providing cheap memory upgrades, so it would be a bad thing if they decided to use integrated graphics with shared memory. So I hope they don't

[Avialan]

when apple switches to intel do you think apple will incorporate WIMAX as well as WiFi technology.

Note: WIMAX is like a super wifi with an averange range of 30 MILES as compared to wifi's 150 feet. :D

[ezekielrage_99]

when apple switches to intel do you think apple will incorporate WIMAX as well as WiFi technology.

Note: WIMAX is like a super wifi with an averange range of 30 MILES as compared to wifi's 150 feet. :D

No doubt they'll put WiFi in, because it's kind of a crutial part of the Centrino chipset.

Putting WiMAX in would be just plain cool:D But I don't know what I would do with it......

[EricNau]

No doubt they'll put WiFi in, because it's kind of a crutial part of the Centrino chipset.

Putting WiMAX in would be just plain cool:D But I don't know what I would do with it......
Does Apple already have WiFi in it, called "Airport Extreme"? :confused:

[generik]

Does Apple already have WiFi in it, called "Airport Extreme"? :confused:

Wifi yes, WiMax no.

[ezekielrage_99]

Does Apple already have WiFi in it, called "Airport Extreme"? :confused:

True WiFi is 802.11a/b/g which is the same 1Mbps, 11Mbps and 54Mbps as the Apple Airport Extreme counterpart, however the the difference with WiFi it is possible to get some 106Mbps WiFi compatible products out there (I haven't seen too many of them).

The interesting thing is that Intel is really going after the whole 802.11e, 802.16e and 802.20 thing which would make already quaility Apple networking even better.

[electronbee]

Maybe some of you all think Intel makes cheap $$ products but a quick look around reveals that their top of the line dual-core proc's are not cheap at all as well as motherboards that use them that also have all the features we'd all like to see like firewire, usb, audio, etc. If you were to go and either build a system up at any place that sells and allows configuration of a system you'd find out that it's not as cheap as you think. In fact, high-end x86 hardware on either Intel or AMD side is pricey. Just look around at those hardware review sites and see what the price on the Top 5 motherbaords are. On or around $200 for just the mobo. Sometimes more. The fastest dual-core is also up there. So, to assume Intel tech will mean a 1/3 cut in price for a Intel based dualie G5 equiv is not gonna happen. High-end x86 hardware is pricey. Just like anything else.

I think a lot of this misconception come from the everyday exposure to "general-use" computers put out by HP/Compaq, Dell, etc. And, yeah, those things are designed to be cheap and disposable so they use cheap and disposable tech. But, that's why Intel/Windows has such a market share. Just like Honda has a huge market share due to their Civics. Ford in trucks with their F150, etc. It's not the high-end S2000, F350-turbo diesel-quad cab-dualie, or Acura's that gives them the market share. It's the entry level stuff that the majority of the population can afford. That is why they have the markey share. Yeah, this sounds really bleak when you think about it and it all settles in and what, ahem, COULD (and has already happened with that Mac Mini) happen if Apple really wants to have more market share.

Just go to Best Buy and see how many people are willing to fork over a couple of grand on a system. Not many. Most are down with the several hudred dollar system that has a 15" LCD.

However, on the plus side, maybe Intel is excited about Apple in that Apple will be willing to experiement more (like others have posted) with their hardware that a lot of those other companies would like. I can see a dual giga, hidef audio with optical, firewire, usb, dual on board raid, dual-dual proc support, mobo's coming soon for Intel-Apple.

Also, on a side not. Believe it or not, but other companies like SGI have used Intel based hardware before. They had a string of quad Xeon based graphic workstations that unless you cracked it open you'd never had known it was intel based. Looked and felt like any other SGI.

I have a feeling Apple has had this route planned for awhile. Apple may Think Different from time to time but they don't Think Stupid. It would kill them to switch and not have anything to run on the comp.

[ezekielrage_99]

Maybe some of you all think Intel makes cheap $$ products.....

I totally agree, with the fact that we probably wont see dirt cheap Apples however because both Apple and Intel are premium brands which dictate a higher price for a quality product.

On the other hand the iMac and Mac Mini lines are pretty cheap now compared to other systems like Dell, Compaq, HP and etc, plus you're getting a fanastic OS and great software too boot which the likes of Microsoft just can not compete with or produce.

Either way there are a lot more hidden cost when you buy a Windows System, you need to buy virus scans, anti spam programs, word processing programs and multimedia programs.

I have used both Mac OSX and Windows and all I can say is that a Mac out of the box can an will do more than a Windows out of the box system.

After all you buy a Mac you buy a full system.

[EricNau]

After all you buy a Mac you buy a full system.

You still need Microsoft Office :(

[ezekielrage_99]

You still need Microsoft Office :(

You can always resort to Neo Office or OpenOffice, and yes I am aware that they don't have all the feature that MS Office has. Let's face it that for most home users Appleworks can always be sufficient enough for basic word processing.

I hate MS Office and the only reason I use it is because everyone else it using it, with that said I use iWork as much a I can I find it looks better and the shorcuts are much more friendlier than MS Office.

Down with MS Office.....if we stop buying it will Microsoft make more releases :confused:

[generik]

I totally agree, with the fact that we probably wont see dirt cheap Apples however because both Apple and Intel are premium brands which dictate a higher price for a quality product.


Eh... just so you know. The AMD64 x2 costs more than an "equivalent" P4D chip, but it does run significantly cooler, utilize way less power, and is faster to boot.

Times has changed, AMD is now the brand that is commanding the premium, although unfortunately I think the reality is that Intel is deliberately uncutting AMD to drive it out of business.

[generik]

You can always resort to Neo Office or OpenOffice, and yes I am aware that they don't have all the feature that MS Office has. Let's face it that for most home users Appleworks can always be sufficient enough for basic word processing.

I hate MS Office and the only reason I use it is because everyone else it using it, with that said I use iWork as much a I can I find it looks better and the shorcuts are much more friendlier than MS Office.

Down with MS Office.....if we stop buying it will Microsoft make more releases :confused:

Trouble is if you do not use Microsoft Office I doubt you will even have a job to begin with.

Look at the number of job postings on Monster or Seek, notice all of them requiring resumes to be sent in .doc format? Are you willing to risk having your resume writen in a funky word processor not rendering correctly on your prospective employer's version of MS Word?

Considering these guys typically receive and seive through hundreds if not thousands of job applications for a position, if I were in their shoes I definitely know where a resume that "looks funny" will be going.

[ezekielrage_99]

Eh... just so you know. The AMD64 x2 costs more than an "equivalent" P4D chip, but it does run significantly cooler, utilize way less power, and is faster to boot.

Times has changed, AMD is now the brand that is commanding the premium, although unfortunately I think the reality is that Intel is deliberately uncutting AMD to drive it out of business.

AMD processors run faster and are cooler than most of the Intel equivelant, I'm not going to argue that fact, I have an Athlon64 running SuSE. But the very successful "Intel Inside" marketing campain belongs to Intel and still determines what processor most people try aim for when they are buying or upgrading a computer system.

Intel in the 90's was always kept the image Mercedes of computer processors, "Intel Inside", "MMX" and to a lesser extent SSE (1, 2 and 3) have always been seen as the bench mark for computer, what do you think 3DNOW! was based on? And after all premium usually is related to the general market perception not always price, quaility speed, etc. Aston Martin is a prime example of this, they are not the fastest and don't come with the most features compared with other similar products but they still command a premium brand name because of market preception.

Personally I think it's a good thing that AMD finally got there act together back in '99 and finally brought out a decent competitive CPU (Athlon), a bigger market share for AMD means more competition with Intel which is always a good thing, we get better products. We don't want CPU manufactures to go the way of De Beers, not a good step in this industry.

The reality with most home users and office employees they don't really need the absolute fastest Opteron, Athlon, Pentium, G5, etc to get emails, surf the web, use MS Office or other officey types of things. The only people who need really CPU grunt are Multimedia Professionals and the good old hardcore gamers.

As for the age old do we all need MS Word debate (and this will never end), I usually send most text documents in PDF which I have found that the all the big companies accept. PDF, DOC or RTF formats are pretty much standard formats now, which these standards don't always need MS Office to open'n'edit.

[ezekielrage_99]

I openned a can of worms with the MS Office comment :D

[EricNau]

You can always resort to Neo Office or OpenOffice, and yes I am aware that they don't have all the feature that MS Office has. Let's face it that for most home users Appleworks can always be sufficient enough for basic word processing.

I hate MS Office and the only reason I use it is because everyone else it using it, with that said I use iWork as much a I can I find it looks better and the shorcuts are much more friendlier than MS Office.

Down with MS Office.....if we stop buying it will Microsoft make more releases :confused:
I agree totally. But you really just need Office, not because you like it, but because it's what the rest of the world has. I've tried Open Office, and it just isn't ready yet for mac. Haven't heard of Neo Office, is it free, does it do .doc format?

[ezekielrage_99]

I never said you don't need office however for the "average" home user there are cheaper alternatives to buying Microsoft Office. When I was at university buying a copy of Microsoft Office was by far too expensive for me but OpenOffice did everything I needed perfectly and the price was right as well.

Commerically speaking Microsoft Office still holds its number 1 position in any industry and I never disputed that, all I was trying to do is make the point that for the average home user there are plenty of good Microsoft Office alternative out there. Just because something is standard doesn't always mean it's any good, look at Beta Vs VHS, VHS is standard but Beta was the better quality product.

Neo Office and OpenOffice saves into plenty of different formats so it is worth looking at, it can save .DOC, .RTF, .TXT, .PDF, etc and I have had no problems opening these files in Microsoft Office.

[SmurfBoxMasta]

If yas think this is REAL news, then I have some beachfront property in Montana that you might be interested in :)

Why not just wait till MWSF & see what pops up ?
getting yourselves in a tizzy speculating dont do nothing but raise your BP unnecessarily.......

[jbh001]

.

[jbh001]

I just hope that Apple never use Intel Graphics. Ever. That would be a dealbreaker for me.....

Funny, it would be a deal maker for me. Just imagine, Intel pumps up their integrated graphics so that it handles Core Image nicely, and Apple drops it into the Mac Mini and/or iBook. Sweet!