New Apple Portables To Drop FireWire Support?

[Crikey]

FireWire, and its deep OS support and its across-the-line ubiquity, is a huge competitive advantage for the Mac. I don't see it going away.

I have a considerable investment in external FireWire hard disks, audio interfaces, media readers, and so on. My future computers WILL have FireWire, regardless of what operating system they run.


Crikey

[Peace]

Maybe Steve is going to replace Firewire with wireless firewire instead! :eek: ;)

Hmm, "wireless firewire" - wouldn't that just be fire?... :cool:

BINGO!! Give that person a prize.

That story has it backwards...Apple will be phasing out Firewire 800 in favor of Firewire Wireless, Firewire 400 and 802.11n
These standards will be seen in January when Jobs shows off the new Intel Mac Mini.

[electronboy]

I hope not. USB 2.0 has some serious throughput issues when compared to firewire. All of our external disc burners, scanners, cameras, and hard drives are all firewire 400. Leave it alone! There is no reason to stop putting firewire 400 ports on laptops, desktops or servers. Why did they have to change the connector anyway?

[fklehman]

I've been saying this ever since Apple dropped Firewire support in the video iPods: Firewire 400 is toast. Sure it kicks the crap out of USB2 (WAY higher sustained transfer rates), but then Beta was better than VHS and look what happened...MacOS was better than Windows and look what happened.

Firewire 400 will be jettisoned as part of Apple's ongoing efforts at platform convergence/compatibility. It's part of a LONG timeline and is thus no surprise--Apple dropped Nubus and adopted PCI; Apple dropped ADB and adopted USB; Apple dropped PPC and adopted Intel. All of these changes have (or will have, in the case of Intel) led to more choice in peripherals for Mac users, which has been a good thing. In the case of Firewire 400 vs. USB2, it's a contest between a "better," Apple-proprietary standard that has enjoyed some success and a "good enough" alternative that enjoys complete market penetration, and if one has to go that's just business. Sucks, but that's the way it is. I predicted on several past threads that the Intel 'Books would have only USB2 and Firewire 800 for pro users.

I actually think that dropping Firewire 400 will be a good thing for Firewire 800. More developers might make devices Firewire 800 compatible at that point. At this point, there is no Firewire 800 consumer device market to spak of, it is pretty much a professional market. With 400 out of the picture, though, the performance gap between USB2 and Firewire 800 is so huge that consumers may become interested. Either way, I'm not at all surprised to hear that Apple is considering giving Firewire 400 the axe--I would probably do the same thing.

[yellow]

That would SERIOUSLY suck! And I'll tell you why..

Not only for the lack of DV video cam support..

But for those of us who do Mac IT support and actually USE the FW ports constantly to troubleshoot and move large amounts of data!

Using my PB to (legally) install OS X on older Macs that don't have DVD drives or fully functioning optical drives, or other problems has been incredibly helpful. Not to mention being able to use target mode to run my PB's OS on a desktop to use various utilities/scripts to fix problems, rename files, etc. AND not to mention that I have no internet at home and use the PB to haul data back to my Macs at home.

I hate USB 2.0. They better not limit it to that ****.

[dqk]

This wouldn't be bad if firewire 800 was still included on all portables and all you had to do was buy a new cable. I wouldn't miss firewire 400 at all as long as I could buy a 4pin to 9pin and still connect my video camera to my laptop. Sure I'd have to spend $20, but I don't really think that's a huge deal. So here's my prediction. Firewire 400 will indeed disappear, but firewire 800 will be present on all machines (indluding new ibooks I hope). Not so bad - just buy a cable.

[SeaFox]

I don't believe this either. Just Page Two It! :)
1. Camcorders and iMovie and iDVD.

That spells this out as bullcrap to me, too. No Firewire means no need for iLife.

2. iSight.

Only if Apple made all computers include iSights like the iMac does.

4. FW400 faster (except in bursts) than USB2.0. FW800 faster still--and it doesn't end there.

This is one of those things Apple needs to market more. All consumers ever do is look at the burst figures they are shown and say "Well clearly USB2 is faster."

9. You still need multiple things connected at once, so they'd only have to add more USB ports anyway.

They already need more USB ports. Dells ship with 6 USB 2.0 ports and they aren't even using them for the keyboard and mouse most of the time.

12. Other rumored FW devices from Apple in the recent past: Asteroid.

Whatever happend to Asteroid?

14. FW has been catching on with PCs too. (And does Apple make fees when companies use Firewire?)

Not sure about that one. Sony had their "i-Link" port that was just unpowered Firewire. They did charge for the use of the name "Firewire" originally, which is why all early PC implementations have the port labeled 'IEEE 1394'. Apple eventually made the name licencing free to stop that so the Firewire name could be adopted in marketing.

But I can see how this COULD be a distorted "quarter-truth"--if LoopRumors is right (big if) about Apple prepping a sub-$500 stripped-down iBook.

THAT machine might be the one that doesn't have Firewire. The rest of the lineup? FW is here to stay. I can imagine pro models MAYBE going 800-only... as long as some adapter is provided. Some support for FW400 must remain.

I think maybe FW400 IS going away. The consumer level macs could all gain a single FW 800 port in place of the 400 ports and the pro level machine would get two FW800 ports. Since 800 is backwards compatable, Apple can just include the adapter dongle with all Macs.

[Peace]

Keep in mind we're talking about the two companies that pioneered firewire and wireless in Intel and Apple..These two inovators are simply coming up with something better..
Firewire 400 will be around for another 2 years.Firewire 800 isn't being adopted as anticipated..

[czardmitri]

O'Grady's full of it. This is just a sad, desperate act in order to garner attention for his new ZDnet column and moderately increase his revenue. The PowerPage used to be a reasonably good source of PowerBook/iBook and associated mobile device info, but it's languished over the last 2 years, plagued by poor writing, a lack of effort and general apathy on O'Grady's part when it failed to become a money-making venture. Now, it's simply an advertisement for his ZDnet column.

Can anyone even cite an example where, within the last three years, the PowerPage was even remotely correct on any of its exclusive rumors?

As stated before, Apple has numerous reasons to leave FireWire intact on the Powerbook and very few reasons to remove or reduce the number of FW ports.

O'Grady's specious reasoning seems to derive solely from the removal of the FW chipset on the 5G iPods, a decision based on the size of the chipset, rather than its utility.

Don't give O'Grady or his ilk any more attention -- it will only encourage more sites to go the route of MacOSRumors. (Yecht!)


Hallelujah!
O'Grady has no credibility. He writes off the top of his head and everyone is convinced that it's true. Powerpage really has slipped lately. I often wonder why I even bother reading it anymore. And I NEVER click through to the ZDNet column. He's probably getting paid by the number of referrals, and I refuse to contribute to that.

-czardmitri

[whooleytoo]

Keep in mind we're talking about the two companies that pioneered firewire and wireless in Intel and Apple..These two inovators are simply coming up with something better..
Firewire 400 will be around for another 2 years.Firewire 800 isn't being adopted as anticipated..

It hasn't been adopted because not enough machines have FW800 ports for it to achieve the critical mass needed to become a standard, plus relatively few people need it. Certainly audio/video engineers do, but until the Mac as a video hub for the living room takes off, most consumers can probably get by just fine without it.

In fact, if Apple is planning some kind of Intel-mini-media-hub in the new year, I'd imagine that might be part of the reason to really start pushing the FW800 again.

[iMan]

This is kind of odd... because in my work I have come to hear a thing that pussled me a bit... we are in the market to invest in some equipment for digital imaging - pro-stuff, 22 megapixel digital camera backends (USD 10.000+ range). One supplier slipped some information on this backend going wireless, but apparently not wifi as we know it - but something he called "wireless firewire" (his wording) that would be released second quarter 2006... apparently coinciding with the new intel Powerbook... this was to enable complete freedom of shooting, transferring files of 50MB+ wirelessly in no time directly to the notebook (appr. 25m range) during the photo-session.

With an optional adapter for existing equipment this would really make for rebirthing firewire as technology... hence the computers won't need any FW ports, except the PB needing a FW800...

[Peace]

It hasn't been adopted because not enough machines have FW800 ports for it to achieve the critical mass needed to become a standard, plus relatively few people need it. Certainly audio/video engineers do, but until the Mac as a video hub for the living room takes off, most consumers can probably get by just fine without it.

In fact, if Apple is planning some kind of Intel-mini-media-hub in the new year, I'd imagine that might be part of the reason to really start pushing the FW800 again.

I see where you're coming from with the media hub.However.
The media hub won't be connecting to an LCD or HDTV via Firewire.

The ITU and the FCC has dictated that all new satellite receivers,cable boxes and pvr's come standard with Firewire ports.

Putting the data ON the media hub will be done either via firewire 400 or firewire wireless..
Or in the case of live television svideo or DVI for live content.

[pubwvj]

One more reason not to buy MacIntel machines.
The lack of Classic support is a deal killer.
Removing support for FireWire just piles it on.
Get your PPC PowerBooks and iBooks while you can.

[heisetax]

I don't know of a single camera that uses FW800...


They use FW800 external drives.

As you imply they also use a lot of FW400 items. Like their: camera, FW card readers & oter items.

Many items only come in USB2. Things like the Epsen P-2000 & P-4000 40 & 80GB Data Storage Unit with a 3.75" screen.

So like many of us, they need all three.

Apple has a history of developing a product until it is just about ready for use then dropping it. The only advantage we have with FireWire is that it was just started by Apple, but has it's own organization & following separate from Apple.

I've seen FW400 on some fairly cheap Windows boxes, like $500 ones. It also appears on many Windows portables. Apple is the only one that has FW800 that I've seen though.

I'm hoping that they don't drop FW either 400 or 800 from the PowerBooks. I just don't want to use my FW800/400 PC card adapters unless I have to.

Bill the TaxMan

[heisetax]

I hope not. USB 2.0 has some serious throughput issues when compared to firewire. All of our external disc burners, scanners, cameras, and hard drives are all firewire 400. Leave it alone! There is no reason to stop putting firewire 400 ports on laptops, desktops or servers. Why did they have to change the connector anyway?


I have been told that there is a problem with the FW400 connectors shorting out some FW400 interfaces when they are hot plugged-in or removed. I know that I have had 2 2.5" FW400 drive interfaces blown. This appears to be the reason why.

Can anyone out there confirm this?

Bill the TaxMan

[jiv3turkey748]

i dont see why everyone loves firewire so much i know its better but everything uses usb i would have much rather had 3 usb ports on my ibook than 2 usb and one firewire

[heisetax]

there are fw 400 > fw 800 connectors. obviously, it doesn't speed it up, but it allows you to utilize that port if you're not using any fw 800 devices.


But that slows everything down in a chain after the adapter. There's different ways around that problem though.

Bill the TaxMan

[mustang_dvs]

i dont see why everyone loves firewire so much i know its better but everything uses usb i would have much rather had 3 usb ports on my ibook than 2 usb and one firewire

Um... you said it yourself: It's better.

And by your logic, since >85% of the world runs on PC hardware, you really should be using a Mac because it has the smaller installed base.

[plastique45]

That is complete and utter ********. Apple's core business is video. Firewire is needed on all their machines.

Also, Apple didn't drop firewire support for the iPod. They stopped including a free FireWire cable to make extra cash. They did the same with their computers. My first Mac came with a firewire cable, my new G5 didn't.

[plastique45]

Um... you said it yourself: It's better.

And by your logic, since >85% of the world runs on PC hardware, you really should be using a Mac because it has the smaller installed base.

Also, where are the USB camcorders?

[dagger01]

Doesn't this statement from a newer article on wireless iPods:

"The last time Steve Jobs spoke on the subject, he claimed that Bluetooth for the iPod isn't a good option due to sound quality and headphone recharging issues. As well, Apple is cautious in adding new features:

We are very careful about what features we add because we can't take them away"

kind of negate the whole rumor of Firewire going away? Duh! Also realize that Apple NEVER takes anything away without replacing it with something better; eg., ADB w. USB, SCSI w. Firewire. So *if* Firewire goes away, we can safely assume that something better will replace it. Frankly, I don't think it's going anywhere just yet.

[camomac]

Why is this BS on page one?

exactly apple won't give this up. this is complete BS, firewire is
the industry standard for DV... it is not going to happen.

[dagger01]

One more reason not to buy MacIntel machines.
The lack of Classic support is a deal killer.
Removing support for FireWire just piles it on.
Get your PPC PowerBooks and iBooks while you can.

What on God's green Earth could anyone possibly need Classic support for? I can't think of a single commercial application that didn't make the move from Classic to Mac OS X. If the app in question is shareware, it's time to find a new app. If the app is open source, port it, or pay someone to do it! If it's infrastructure reasons, then your infrastructure is old, insecure, and highly unstable; all of which point to needing a new infrastructure. What in the world could you possibly need Classic for today?

[iEdd]

That is complete and utter ********. Apple's core business is video. Firewire is needed on all their machines.

Also, Apple didn't drop firewire support for the iPod. They stopped including a free FireWire cable to make extra cash. They did the same with their computers. My first Mac came with a firewire cable, my new G5 didn't.
Actually iPod nanos and video iPods do not have a firewire device chip in them, they will only charge through it. And my bondi blue iMac G3 included a Firewire cable, but my G5 didn't, just like yours. :(

Also, where are the USB camcorders?
Well seeing as FW400 transfers video while playing it, I assume transferring video with USB would be as reliable as trying to stream a video with windows media player. :rolleyes: :D

What on God's green Earth could anyone possibly need Classic support for? I can't think of a single commercial application that didn't make the move from Classic to Mac OS X. If the app in question is shareware, it's time to find a new app. If the app is open source, port it, or pay someone to do it! If it's infrastructure reasons, then your infrastructure is old, insecure, and highly unstable; all of which point to needing a new infrastructure. What in the world could you possibly need Classic for today?
Please don't turn this into an intel debate thread with all the others. I wonder if some classic users also need SCSI, Serial and all that for their 'legacy' printers and scanners (of course, new ones haven't come out yet) :o Meh, I'm over classic, but some people want it on their new machines, let them winge. I'm sure some M$ users were reluctant to go from DOS to 3.1 (shows how well M$ can count :D) :p

[iEdd]

We are very careful about what features we add because we can't take them away
That's reassuring, apple doesn't let us down. I'm thinking someone will quote that and then say "Well apple took classic away!", however the statement only relates to things that aren't being replaced by something better with the same(or more) support.

[bigandy]

that's never going to happen - for one, almost every video camera on the planet uses it, and USB2 can't cope with the data rates of DV, let alone HDV..

if that happened, i'd seriously consider not buying an Intel-based Mac, because I need firewire so much. if FW800 was included that's more like it, because of the convertors, and i can seee FW400 being left out, but not at all? seriously silly move.

[pubwvj]

"We are very careful about what features we add because we can't take them away"-Jobs
kind of negate the whole rumor of Firewire going away?

Not true. Apple has discontinued many features: ADB, Serial port, SCSI and they're dumping Classic now. Apple does take them away.

What in the world could you possibly need Classic for today?

There is plenty of legacy data only accessible via legacy applications for which there are no upgrades. Accounting, payroll, customer databases, book and magazines at publishing houses, educational software, specialized utilities. Not everything is OSX. It doesn't hurt you in the slightest to simply not install Classic but it is important for many people and businesses to have the option. Perhaps you don't use other features of the Mac but they are there for those who need them. It amazes me that some people feel so threatened by the continued existance of a need for Classic. Get over your fears.

[Thanatoast]

Also, where are the USB camcorders?
They're around. My dad has one. It also does firewire, but when you've got both and only the one port...

I'll put in my two cents and say that if apple is dropping FW400, they damn well better replace it with standard 800, or a wireless spec. I'm already pissed they dropped support on the ipod just when PC's are starting to regularly carry FW400 ports. Way to kill the standar, Apple.

Assuming this isn't all talk out of someone's ass, of course.

[EricNau]

Not true. Apple has discontinued many features: ADB, Serial port, SCSI and they're dumping Classic now. Apple does take them away.

True, but they were all replaced with something better. If Apple didn't include Firewire, what would they have in it's place that was better?

[iEdd]

Not true. Apple has discontinued many features: ADB, Serial port, SCSI and they're dumping Classic now. Apple does take them away.
Everything they've dumped here has been replaced with something and adaptors for if they're needed. I know for one it's not quite time for it to be all FW800. USB replaced most of those, with FW for SCSI. What I want to know is, how do all these poeple move on from old peripherals, but still can't move on from classic? (And no, I'm not threatened by classic users, because if I can't see them, they're not real :D) My mum used classic for heaps of accounting and stuff like that, but 1 to 2 years after OSX was released and a google search engine, we moved her entirely to OSX. I'm not saying all classic users can do that, but many can find other programs and ways to totally go OSX.

[MM2270]

Well, it's been said a thousand ways, but I don't buy this rumor either. I don't see the logic behind dropping FW in any form at this juncture. I can see it if they plan on intro'ing a very low end laptop, i.e. a very basic iBook with only the bare essentials. But dropping it on ANY other Mac would be ludicrous. They would alienate so many of their long time loyal customers that I wouldn't be surprised to see marketshare take a nose dive after such an announcement. I know I wouldn't buy one of these new 'books. FW is far too useful to get rid of, for all the reasons already mentioned here. Booting, FW Target disk mode, the migration assistant and much much more.
However, I feel compelled to put the truth out there about one piece of MISinformation that keeps getting repeated on this forum. I hate to break it to everyone, but many of the newer digital camcorders from companies like Sony, Panasonic, JVC and others are now including USB2 ports as well as FW400 ports on their models. And YES, you CAN copy over movie files to your computer via these USB2 ports, not just still images or something. I only know this because a relative was in the market for their first digital camcorder and I went to a Best Buy with them to look at models. I was very surprised to see so many of them touting USB2 connectivity built-in, on top of the already ubiquitous FireWire. Checking out manuals for some of them confirmed that you can copy over video files to your computer for editing, at least on a PC- none of them mention Macs to my knowledge.

Now, this isn't to say that I believe this rumor, because I know that many pros already have expensive equipment which uses FW400 to transfer over video, and these folk are NOT going to just plunk down more money for a new model just for the "privilege" of using a new intelPB. They won't bite, and most others won't either. This isn't even talking about the tons of other peripherals which would be suddenly incompatible with these new models. So I call BS on this rumor. There may yet be a day when we will nee to say goodbye to FireWire, but that day will not be coming this year.

If it is, I may have to give up on using a Mac as my next new comp, because then I will know that Apple has TRULY sold out! :(

[superleccy]

I'm not going to go into the details of comparing Firewire 400 to USB 2.0. But...

...through the one FW400 port on my iBook, I connect my Elgato EyeTV410, and from that I daisychain my 250Gb Lacie HD. (The EyeTV has a FW400 "thru" port). Common wisdom seems to suggest that this is a combination that should lead to reduced performance, but I've had that setup for well over six months now, and let me tell you it works a treat. It also reduces the number of cables I have spewing from my iBook, and I don't need to use a hub. I even use the Lacie as my target drive for shows recorded on the EyeTV, so often both peripherals are at it full whack through the same FW port. No performance problems whatsoever.

I bet you couldn't do that with USB2.0. Let's hear it for firewire!

An apple computer without firewire? I wouldn't buy one.

Superleccy

[MacPhreak]

More like 1995

Firewire first appeared on the B&W G3's. According to apple-history.com, they were introduced in Jan '99, and terminated in Sept '99.

[yellow]

One more reason not to buy MacIntel machines.
The lack of Classic support is a deal killer.


Really? You're still invested in OS9? Even after 4+ years?

[~Shard~]

If Apple didn't include Firewire, what would they have in it's place that was better?

SuperDuperFireWire??? :p :cool:

[SiliconAddict]

Really? You're still invested in OS9? Even after 4+ years?


Some people expect Apple to support everything forever...

http://img.engadget.com/common/images/3060000000054560.JPG


Let the damn OS die, migrate your data, and move on.

[morespce54]

How will I connect my Canon camcorder to my iBook????:mad:


and my external 160 GB HD ????
:mad:

[iMeowbot]

Some people expect Apple to support everything forever...
And why not? New IBM machines will still run programs written for machines they sold 45 years ago.

[iHavenolife]

Not good. What about Video Cameras?

[Blue Velvet]

Not good. What about Video Cameras?


I'm sure nobody has asked that same question in this thread...

This is one of the slimmest, unlikeliest scenarios that I've heard for some time for good reasons that others have already stated. Why people are giving this credence is completely beyond me.

[ja0912]

x

[ChrisH3677]

MacRumors shouldn't have even run this story. The site that started it is just trolling.

[Dale_Nx26]

Maybe and if they are ridding FW400, then it must be to promote FW800. Very few electronics use FW800 so they're trying to make it more mainstream by abandoning FW400 and forcing manufacturers to implement FW800. That would be good as it is much faster than both 400 and USB 2.0. Just a thought.

[jer2eydevil88]

If apple actually goes through with this I wouldn't be able to use my camcorder, hard drive or ipod so basically I wouldn't be able to buy a new powerbook...

[Lynxpro]

Jobs is afraid of that. He created the thing we all love about Apple -- intelligent design.


Weird. I always thought he supported Darwinism.

[artifex]

don't discount an eventual move to be able to boot from USB someday, regardless of what happens to FW. I've seen a few Intel-based boards support that in BIOS; no reason for them not to allow it if the underlying hardware supports it.

[Lynxpro]

FireWire has also been around for much longer than USB 2.0 Firewire was introduced in late 1998 while USB was not introduced until late 2001.


Uhm, no. USB 1.0 has been around since 1996/1997. In fact, it was made a standard with the original iMac. It took the iMac to cement it as a standard because before the iMac, nobody in the WindowsPC arena took it seriously. They shipped PCs with USB ports, but there were hardly any items that used the ports then. It wasn't until Windows98 that there was decent USB support officially in the Windows world.

If you mean USB 2.0, write "USB 2.0". But seeing that you are referencing Firewire(400) in 1998, that leads me to believe you are incorrectly writing about USB 1.0.

[Lynxpro]

Please don't turn this into an intel debate thread with all the others. I wonder if some classic users also need SCSI, Serial and all that for their 'legacy' printers and scanners.


I would hope that this alliance with Intel will bring the other Intel technologies such as PCIe and SATA to all of Apple's product lineups; not just Intel microprocessors and "Centrino" chipsets. Of course, I'm currently amazed that Apple's "Airport" sub-brand has not been updated to include Pre-N transfers.

[mandoman]

This rumor is about as believable as saying
Apple is going to start putting serial, parallel, and ps/2
ports on their laptops so they can be like Dell. Yeah, right!

[JackAxe]

This is pure speculation on my part, but I think the real reason Apple dropped FW on the iPod in favor of Intel's USB, was because they worked out a deal with Intel to have exclusive rights to an upcoming Pentium M for a set period of time. Dropping it on the PB and IB would further my belief in this atrocity, but until something happens. Blah.

<]=)

[fluidinclusion]

Really? You're still invested in OS9? Even after 4+ years?

Sadly, most faculty that are mac users are forced to use Classic at my university if they want email. The IT department installs the most recent version of MS Office, but won't allow us to use Entourage. We have to use Outlook on Classic for 1) Exchange compatability and 2) behavior with networked home directories. Entourage has too many email corruption problems. Sucks, eh? Without classic they'd be screwed!

[bloogersnigen]

:(

i dont use FW for anything other then my iPo but if i update then i wont use FW ever

How about a external hard drive, camera (4 gigs takes a while on USB), Video camera, other computer file transfer, etc.
This sucks big time. I'll be pissed if this is true

[parrothead]

What's next, integrated video chips?

This rumor is hard to believe given that most PC notebooks have Firewire in them.

[Val-kyrie]

My sentiments exactly.

That really sucks, how am I supposed to connect my video camera?

[skippingrock]

All I can say is:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/

This would be our only chance to do it....
If we don't let them know now... well it will be too late later.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/
http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/
http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/

If you get my point.
-skippR :eek:

[urbanlung]

What would be the point of imovie if your *book didn't have firewire. There surely can be no way that Apple would dump iMovie on domestic kit so I cannot believe that they would loose FWire. I mean how else would you get the video accross, USB wont do it. Unless of course there is some intel deal going on... nah can't be, what a sell out.

[avus]

All I can say is:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/

This would be our only chance to do it....
If we don't let them know now... well it will be too late later.



I think this is a hardware related issue, so go to this page and pick Powerbook instead (Be NICE when you send your opinion regarding Firewire, please).

http://www.apple.com/feedback/

[LimeiBook86]

This won't happen. Apple will then not be able to use all exisiting FireWire devices, it isn't even like FireWire is slow or something. This is really...really...REALLY stupid if this were to happen. I seriously hope this DOESN'T happen. I have an odd feeling that it might though...this scares me....:(

If they do drop it, they better include a damn converter, or we'll raise hell!! Right, Who's with me!?!?:mad:

Of course, I'm currently amazed that Apple's "Airport" sub-brand has not been updated to include Pre-N transfers.
That might be around the corner. Or maybe Apple will wait until the Pre-N is finalized...:rolleyes:

[Thanatoast]

You know, no one would consider this credible if Apple hadn't just dropped Firwire on the iPods not so long ago. Law of unintended consequences, I guess.

And maybe Arn put it on the front page in order to make a point. The negative reviews are enormous for this decision. Maybe it's his way of pointing this out to any surfing Apple execs. :cool:

[iMeowbot]

don't discount an eventual move to be able to boot from USB someday, regardless of what happens to FW.
The Macintel transition kits have been widely reported to boot from USB but not FireWire. We'll have to see if that carries over to production models.

[LimeiBook86]

The Macintel transition kits have been widely reported to boot from USB but not FireWire. We'll have to see if that carries over to production models.
I hope it does, because if indeed this happened, then Mac users couldn't boot off of anything besides a CD/DVD or Network disk. Now that I think of it more I don't think Apple will do this, then they'll have to change the iSight, offer 800 to 400 adapters, and somehow make a USB Target Disk Mode (which won't support older Macs), this is starting to seem very silly :p

[moooosedude]

i just don't think it's going to happen...way too much effort put into development, and too many people with an isight. i dont know about anyone else, but i dont want to have to keep track of an adapter to get my isight hooked up to my new laptop...

[aranhamo]

I would hope that this alliance with Intel will bring the other Intel technologies such as PCIe and SATA to all of Apple's product lineups; not just Intel microprocessors and "Centrino" chipsets. Of course, I'm currently amazed that Apple's "Airport" sub-brand has not been updated to include Pre-N transfers.

Maybe that's because a number of vendors that have sold Pre-N devices are currently being sued for false performance claims. Apple might have decided to stay out of that fray.

[zap2]

How about a external hard drive, camera (4 gigs takes a while on USB), Video camera, other computer file transfer, etc.
This sucks big time. I'll be pissed if this is true


I don't use it i know thats there are TONS of thing thats do and i would be mad if the drop it but the effects on me will be small

[cgmpowers]

I'd loose the following..

Two Firewire Connected Camcorders (Sony brands)
One firewire printer (large format, can use USB but faster w/ FW)
One Studio/TV Formac tuner, use it & love it.
Four Firewire powered hard drives (connected to one computer!!)
Four Firewire connected hard drives (powered by electricity & connected)
(yes, that's 8 firewire hard drives total!!)
One iChat Firewire camera!
One Firewire Epson Scanner (I think, it has USB but again, FW is faster!)
One Firewire Card reader

That's what's connected into ONE of my Mac's...all of that, all of it on Firewire. Only half has USB (hard drives do NOT, nor does the Formac).

Christopher Powers

[iPodAddict]

Nope, I don't believe it. FireWire is far too important to everyone. How will we get video off our camcorders without it?

[chubad]

Remember kiddies this is just a RUMOR! Don't get your undies in a bunch until it's confirmed.:D

[EricNau]

Remember kiddies this is just a RUMOR! Don't get your undies in a bunch until it's confirmed.:D
Once it's confirmed...it'll be too late.

[Texas04]

Only way i can see this working is if there is a wireless type of device built in. Where you can acess your FW devices wirelessly, like bluethooth type thing. But that could still be a headace... having to keep up with adapters, and if no adapters than Apple would have to get the other Camocorder companies to create a FW wireless type thing on thier devices, just to much work,

Bottom line:
I WANT MY FIREWIRE WIRED! NO FLIPPIN AA Battery POWERED ADAPTER! :mad:

[Mechcozmo]

The Macintel transition kits have been widely reported to boot from USB but not FireWire. We'll have to see if that carries over to production models.

A fair number of recent BIOS can start off of USB... since the MacIntel kits have BIOSes and recent ones at that, its reasonable that they can start up off of USB. But the replacement to Open Firmware should deal with both.

I'd hope that we see FW400 and FW800 as well as USB 2.0 target disk modes. Currently, only the primary-master hard drive will show up under FWTDM but maybe that will change...

Oh, I'm a fan of FireWire 400; my Shuffle is noticeably slower than any other iPod I've seen via FireWire. My friend has a hard drive at it is amazing how much faster it is with FireWire and not USB.

[generik]

Only way i can see this working is if there is a wireless type of device built in. Where you can acess your FW devices wirelessly, like bluethooth type thing. But that could still be a headace... having to keep up with adapters, and if no adapters than Apple would have to get the other Camocorder companies to create a FW wireless type thing on thier devices, just to much work,

Bottom line:
I WANT MY FIREWIRE WIRED! NO FLIPPIN AA Battery POWERED ADAPTER! :mad:

Actually if Apple can achieve 800mbps through a wireless firewire setup I will be *extremely* interested in it.

I can probably spend some coin getting a few wireless harddrive cases and Woah.. huge storage array from my PB.

[GodBless]

What about starting up off of external hard drives? :eek: Apple can not afford to loose that feature it is far too valuable.

[BlueRevolution]

relax, and realize this for what it is: utter bs. the only way apple would drop fw400 is to replace it with fw800 and possibly add a new standard (like fw2000 would be nice). I don't see how this rumour has a scrap of credibility, next they'll have us believe that apple is dropping the use of monitors and switching forevermore to printer output.

[iEdd]

A fair number of recent BIOS can start off of USB... since the MacIntel kits have BIOSes and recent ones at that, its reasonable that they can start up off of USB. But the replacement to Open Firmware should deal with both.
I certainly hope we can boot from firewire in future. The intel transition better not be a "we've given you this, however, ..... has to go".

[iMan]

Only way i can see this working is if there is a wireless type of device built in. Where you can acess your FW devices wirelessly, like bluethooth type thing. But that could still be a headace... having to keep up with adapters, and if no adapters than Apple would have to get the other Camocorder companies to create a FW wireless type thing on thier devices, just to much work,

Bottom line:
I WANT MY FIREWIRE WIRED! NO FLIPPIN AA Battery POWERED ADAPTER! :mad:

As I mentioned earlier - it IS going wireless... at least that is very likely. All of Apple is going wireless... seriously, I actually believe that is going to happen - and the adapter thing might just not be a hassle - if the adapter is AC powered, and you can keep the periferals in a corner/other room or something... 25m range is quite a lot if that rumor is true... and we know they are working on wirelss iPods...

You buy a new media iMac to keep in your living room, and the keyboard is wireless, the mouse is, the networking is - but then you suddenly have to stack it up with cameras, scanners, printers, iPods, harddrives and god knows what that still need cables... remember digicams just got wifi (substitutes USB) - now the rest is getting dedicated 400Mbs "wireless FireWire" - it just makes sense! especially as portables go - one wireless firewire hub to connect them all, and you still have access to your periferals from the couch and all...

[director]

Gentlemen, total waste of time & space FW800 is backward compatible with FW 400. The only thing you will need is a new cable (http://www.wiebetech.com/products/cables.php) but I bet Apple will provide one, possibly two (9-6, and 9-4) for free. What's this fuss about?

[generik]

I seriously doubt wireless firewire will be 400mbps though, if it is they certainly know something that the wifi consortium doesn't, and the odds of that being... nil.

I know you guys like to think of Apple as super or godly, but come on, those guys are in the wireless business. If they can't do it yet surely it does mean something doesn't it?

[bigandy]

Gentlemen, total waste of time & space FW800 is backward compatible with FW 400. The only thing you will need is a new cable (http://www.wiebetech.com/products/cables.php) but I bet Apple will provide one, possibly two (9-6, and 9-4) for free. What's this fuss about?


i pretty much agree - there could well be at least one adapter, and it's about as likely apple dropping firewire completely as it is the UK's National Health Service offering decent healthcare...

[realityisterror]

I'm sure this exact comment has been posted before, but who has time to read a 15 page thread?

How stupid are these front page stories getting? No FireWire? Apple is not that stupid... We lost it on the iPods because the majority of people use Windows and they have USB more often than not.
But you know that little camera like thing Apple sells? What'd they call it... oh yeah, iSight? How does that thing connect to your computer again?
And that whole iMovie business? That's right you just eject the tape and say magic words and it's on your computer. It's not like you actually use a FireWire cable to connect your camcorder to your computer...

Sorry, my bad... I guess I was wrong...

I'm guessing the rumors are running short, because all these made up stories that are being posted are getting sort of outrageous...

realiy

[Capn_Moho]

That's a precious number of negatives votes.

[mjstew33]

That's a precious number of negatives votes.
Never. Ever. Going. To. Happen. :rolleyes:

[mjstew33]

We are very careful about what features we add because we can't take them away.

Remember that line? How can they just... take it away? FireWire is just starting to get really popular. :rolleyes: :eek:

[applekid]

I dunno, I think I see more USB 2.0 support than FireWire these days on lots of equipment. FireWire coming to an end seems plausible to me, or at least slowly phasing out. There aren't too many peripherals that support FW800 though, is there? Seems like to much of a change all too fast.

[gkarris]

Not going to happen, most Windows laptops and desktops now have firewire (finally, and it took them how long to catch up?).

Well, I really needed a newer laptop, I got a cheapo $499 Compaq special from Staples (total with shipping and tax after rebates and price breaks). Thought I would go ahead and wait for the PowerBooks to go Intel before getting one (I think the iBooks and Minis will go Intel first). I have an iBook G4 and it's getting so much use, it's not holding up well. The Powerbooks are more rugged.

My new Compaq is nice with a 14" widescreen, DVD-ROM, 256 Megs RAM, Intel Media 900, 40 Gig HD, and full keyboard. Hopefully, the new Mac portables will be the same (I thought I wouldn't like the screen as much as a 12", but I do as it's longer).

My point is that this new cheapo laptop DOESN'T have firewire. I can see if Apple drops firewire, it will only be on their cheapest laptop (I understand they've always had an inexpensive iBook with only a CD ROM, for budget reasons).

I can see and iBook 13" Widescreen with 512Megs RAM, 40 Gig HD, and and Pentium or Celeron M with Intel Media 900 go for about $599 without the firewire. The upper models with larger hard drives and faster processors will have the firewire too.

[artifex]

Not going to happen, most Windows laptops and desktops now have firewire (finally, and it took them how long to catch up?).

Well, I really needed a newer laptop, I got a cheapo $499 Compaq special from Staples (total with shipping and tax after rebates and price breaks). Thought I would go ahead and wait for the PowerBooks to go Intel before getting one (I think the iBooks and Minis will go Intel first). I have an iBook G4 and it's getting so much use, it's not holding up well. The Powerbooks are more rugged.

My new Compaq is nice with a 14" widescreen, DVD-ROM, 256 Megs RAM, Intel Media 900, 40 Gig HD, and full keyboard. Hopefully, the new Mac portables will be the same (I thought I wouldn't like the screen as much as a 12", but I do as it's longer).

My point is that this new cheapo laptop DOESN'T have firewire. I can see if Apple drops firewire, it will only be on their cheapest laptop (I understand they've always had an inexpensive iBook with only a CD ROM, for budget reasons).

I can see and iBook 13" Widescreen with 512Megs RAM, 40 Gig HD, and and Pentium or Celeron M with Intel Media 900 go for about $599 without the firewire. The upper models with larger hard drives and faster processors will have the firewire too.

If you want FW, you can get a PCMCIA FW card for that Compaq, too, for only like $20. Will IntelBooks have PCMCIA? :)

[EricNau]

Funny, we have 15 pages of people saying the exact same thing over and over again. "It's not true, because..." :D

[CiBoys]

ehhhhhh?????????? i hve 4 hard drives that only support FW. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[CiBoys]

Then i wont buy Apple anymore i'll get Sonys :D I'm just kidding

[MattG]

Well I'm way late to this thread, but...I just don't see how this could be accurate. So many devices use FireWire. Pre-Video iPods, iSight, plus you've got that whole Target Disk feature. Plus, video cameras all use FireWire as a means of transferring video. Assuming new iBooks will come with DVD burners...wouldn't you sort of want/need a FireWire port for that stuff?

This ain't happening.

[Stonecoldcleric]

I didn't know that fw800 was backward compatible. that makes me think that it migh be more likely. Though i still dont believe this guy, at some point it will happen.

BUT a friend of mine who does a/v work says that even HD video streaming uses less than the full 400 in fw400 - so, theoretically moving to 800 won't help a/v stuff, just the hdds and such...

[k2k koos]

15 pages of can't be true etc.. indeed... And stuborn as i am I will say it too, just so it is clear to Apple that we do not want to loose FW, 400 or 800.
too bad we lost it on the iPods, as on the road with my PB 1.25Ghz Alu, both my USB ports are allready taken up by a XS key (for Logic) and a midi interface, all that is left is a FW 400 and 800 port for an iPod that i do not yet have... (I am ashamed to say....)

[zap2]

i doubt this is true but Apple did drop the flop,go intel, usa 2 button Mouse so who knows what Apple will do?:eek:

[Quark]

Firewire 800 is backward compatible. ALL existing Firewire devices will work just fine with Firewire 800.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75471


Take care,
Quark

[ScubaDuc]

That's a precious number of negatives votes.


and I just added my own "negative" vote. I agree with all of those who complained about the Sony i-Link. I am in the same boat as everyone else since I have a Sony PC120. It uses firewire for movies and USB for pics. In that sense, it is a bit redundant...but that's Sony. I just want to keep using my videocamera like everyone else...

I think I get a faster tranfer speed if I have one USB2 device and one fw400connected then if I use 2 firewire devices or two USB2 devices...Do firewire and USB2 share the same controller? That may make a difference for those who use more than one external HD. Also, can u boot from a USB HD? I am not sure...

Now, if Apple drops fw400 for fw800, well...that's cool since they are compatible

[BornAgainMac]

Steve Jobs reading MacRumors: "I just pissed off every Mac user on the planet with that rumor!"

[EricNau]

Steve Jobs reading MacRumors: "I just pissed off every Mac user on the planet with that rumor!"
That's a good business move.:rolleyes:

[iEdd]

Yeah that's probably how he makes decisions, dumps it on macrumors and watches the feedback :D
How do you actually vote? Clicking on vote for me in safari never works.

[el_aarono]

Exactly what I was going for. I though it would have been more easily understood. :o

It is ironic though. Isn't it?

Don't you mean that it is "iRonic"? :)

My opinion is that there is too much "iStuff" in Apple's product line. It kind of gets "iNnoying" if you know what "iMean". Also, didn't the "i" originally stand for "internet"? And what does IEEE-1394 have to do with that? I think Firewire is a great name. It makes you think of something hot, fast, and exciting. And it rhymes.

I doubt this rumor to be true, but in the case that Apple does release Inte-based laptops in January and does not include a Firewire port, then I will likely buy an older G4 Powerbook or iBook. I use Firewire to back up my macs to external drives. A fancy Intel processor isn't worth not having a back up.

-A

[steve_hill4]

I can't see Apple ditching it completely. The full IEEE 1394b spec supports up to 3.2Gbits/s, using optics, so massive room for improvement.

I agree though that everything will soon be wireless. Wireless USB supports speeds of 480Mbits/s up to 10M away and 100Mbits/s up to 30M away. While we know that USB is inferior, it is the way a lot of PCs will go and other devices like cameras, printers etc, may end up going too. Very much like Bluetooth. This could help kill off Firewire, but it is currently unclear. I think there is also a Wireless 1394, but that is less well supported currently.

Either way, if the Powerbook will have one 9-pin port, I will be okay. I do feel that it should remain though, for others as well as PB owners. It is much less of a strain on the system and why do we have to take a step back purely because an inferior technology was developed largely by the company who Apple will be buying processors from soon?

[Sedulous]

I can see eliminating Firewire 400 ports (as long as the 800 port is backwards compatible). However, I can't see eliminating Firewire 800 ports. Can you imagine transferring HD video over USB 2?

[steve_hill4]

Yeah that's probably how he makes decisions, dumps it on macrumors and watches the feedback :D
Interesting theory, but I think there is some element of truth in that. I'm sure rumours like these get leaked out well in advance to test public reactions to any major changes. Either way, someone at Apple will surely pick up on this message and it may filter up to people making decisions, so we can have some influence.

Just keep voting how your heart tells you to and i'm sure those votes will rack up to the point Apple will realise how unpopular the move away from Firewire would be. Not that public/Mac community opinion has ever stopped them from making unpopular choices in the past, whether they turn out to be right or wrong.

[Yvan256]

Sure, FireWire is better than USB 2.0, and FireWire 800 is probably better than the yet-to-be-announced (and supported) USB 3.0. However, only profesionnals use FireWire 800, so it may be a good time to drop FireWire before the main public catch on. Let's face it: aside from miniDV (and iPods), FireWire 400 never really got off the ground when compared to USB 2.0.

in the long run, having two standards that do pratically the same thing is bad for the users (kinda like Beta vs VHS, ADC vs DVI, Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD, Compact Flash vs Memory Stick vs SD vs, well, too many flash card formats). It doesn't make for a "simple computing experience" if you have too many standards. Even FireWire 800 isn't connector compatible with FireWire 400. Not a good move, if you ask me. I also have to guess that USB 3.0 will use the same connector as USB 2.0 (here's hoping).

Maybe Intel could, with the help of Apple, add the good bits of FireWire (what prevents it from sucking CPU power) to USB 3.0 so it's the best of both worlds.

So in the short term, it's a bad idea (because of all the miniDV camcorders out there), but in the long term it's the same as the ADC vs DVI debate: you have to go with the most spread standard even if it's not the best one (as long as it's "almost as good").

In the long term, it's good for everyone because you don't have to fight for something "special" (ADC, PowerPC, FireWire, to name a few), you go with the flow and simplify the "computer" experience for regular (non-technical) users.

What makes a Mac isn't the hardware itself. It's the way it's built together, it's the operating system it runs. I don't care if it has an Intel processor or no FireWire ports, as long as has OS X and incredible software like the iLife suite.

[EricNau]

Sure, FireWire is better than USB 2.0, and FireWire 800 is probably better than the yet-to-be-announced (and supported) USB 3.0. However, only profesionnals use FireWire 800, so it may be a good time to drop FireWire before the main public catch on. Let's face it: aside from miniDV (and iPods), FireWire 400 never really got off the ground when compared to USB 2.0.

in the long run, having two standards that do pratically the same thing is bad for the users (kinda like Beta vs VHS, ADC vs DVI, Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD, Compact Flash vs Memory Stick vs SD vs, well, too many flash card formats). It doesn't make for a "simple computing experience" if you have too many standards. Even FireWire 800 isn't connector compatible with FireWire 400. Not a good move, if you ask me. I also have to guess that USB 3.0 will use the same connector as USB 2.0 (here's hoping).

Maybe Intel could, with the help of Apple, add the good bits of FireWire (what prevents it from sucking CPU power) to USB 3.0 so it's the best of both worlds.

So in the short term, it's a bad idea (because of all the miniDV camcorders out there), but in the long term it's the same as the ADC vs DVI debate: you have to go with the most spread standard even if it's not the best one (as long as it's "almost as good").

In the long term, it's good for everyone because you don't have to fight for something "special" (ADC, PowerPC, FireWire, to name a few), you go with the flow and simplify the "computer" experience for regular (non-technical) users.

What makes a Mac isn't the hardware itself. It's the way it's built together, it's the operating system it runs. I don't care if it has an Intel processor or no FireWire ports, as long as has OS X and incredible software like the iLife suite.
People don't think about/care about the "log run." If Apple drops support for Firewire, no one with a Digital Camcorder would buy an Apple Computer. They would NOT think, "well, gee, maybe in 5 years Digital Camcorders will use USB 3.0, so in the meant time, I just won't take any more videos."

And why do you suppose Digital Camcorders have always used Firewire? - It's because USB 2.0 wasn't good enough - and the world is starting to catch on. Now almost all PC's have atleast some form of Firewire.

[trebblekicked]

Sure, FireWire is better than USB 2.0, and FireWire 800 is probably better than the yet-to-be-announced (and supported) USB 3.0. However, only profesionnals use FireWire 800, so it may be a good time to drop FireWire before the main public catch on... <snip>

gotta disagree with you there. the amount of professional peripherals that are FW400 specific alone is enough to keep FW alive. not just video pro's, either. most of the high end digidesign hardware is firewire based, high end scanners and printers, storage, still cameras, video cameras, etc...

the consumer ecosystem isn't exactly lacking, either. tons of external hard disks and optical drives, backup sytstems, camcorders, webcams and such are out there, and still being manufactured.

i don't think anyone will care if apple ups all systems to FW800, but to ax FW all-together just doesn't make sense.

[steve_hill4]

i don't think anyone will care if apple ups all systems to FW800, but to ax FW all-together just doesn't make sense.
I think some will, especfially those with older FW400 HDDs and iPods etc, they would have to start buying new cables adapters, unless Apple provide a few in the box, (still that would be messier).

[aswitcher]

Firewire 800 is backward compatible. ALL existing Firewire devices will work just fine with Firewire 800.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75471


Take care,
Quark


Yeah, if they do only FW800 and supply a FW400 to FW800 dongle adapter thingy allowing all to work as normal, then I dont see any fuss assuming it works seemlessly. My only concern is that the power ranges keep at least 2 FW800 ports so we can such video off one straight onto the harddisk plugged into the other as we can do now...

[Mechcozmo]

Sure, FireWire is better than USB 2.0, and FireWire 800 is probably better than the yet-to-be-announced (and supported) USB 3.0. However, only profesionnals use FireWire 800, so it may be a good time to drop FireWire before the main public catch on. Let's face it: aside from miniDV (and iPods), FireWire 400 never really got off the ground when compared to USB 2.0.
Eh, all the hard drives out there? And marginalizing the thousands of miniDV cameras with FireWire vs. USB 2.0 is not a good thing to do.


Maybe Intel could, with the help of Apple, add the good bits of FireWire (what prevents it from sucking CPU power) to USB 3.0 so it's the best of both worlds.
Pretty hard to do without making USB 3.0 incompatible with USB 2.0 and 1.1. It would mean completely different chipsets in the new devices that wouldn't work with older devices. Plus, I don't think USB will ever do daisy-chaining like FireWire can.

So in the short term, it's a bad idea (because of all the miniDV camcorders out there), but in the long term it's the same as the ADC vs DVI debate: you have to go with the most spread standard even if it's not the best one (as long as it's "almost as good").
ADC wasn't the best. It only supported USB 1.1 with no foreseeable way to change that easily. ADC also would need a completely different connector for the 30" screen. DVI lets Apple change the computer or screen without messing up anything else. It also supports that 30" screen without breaking support for other screens. DVI is better than ADC.

What makes a Mac isn't the hardware itself. It's the way it's built together, it's the operating system it runs. I don't care if it has an Intel processor or no FireWire ports, as long as has OS X and incredible software like the iLife suite.

So if your PowerBook weighed 8 pounds and was 2 inches thick and was big, blue, and ugly, would it still help the Mac experience? The Macintosh experience IS partly hardware. Clean lines, small notebooks, stylish metal. The iMac G5 is another great example of this. It looks like a monitor but is really a computer. OS X adds to it making it complete. The iMac could have been 5" thick, loud, hot, noisy, but it IS NOT. Apple makes hardware and software for a reason; to make sure they both work correctly.

[Mechcozmo]

Yeah, if they do only FW800 and supply a FW400 to FW800 dongle adapter thingy allowing all to work as normal, then I dont see any fuss assuming it works seemlessly.

I can. I don't like to carry anything more than necessary when I'm traveling with my PowerBook. This dongle thing would really suck; something else to be lost, stolen, damaged, etc. Laptops need to be mostly self-contained and having five different dongles won't really work too well.

I guess this may mean that the 12" PowerBook finally gets FW800 though, eh?:rolleyes:

[faintember]

I can. I don't like to carry anything more than necessary when I'm traveling with my PowerBook. This dongle thing would really suck; something else to be lost, stolen, damaged, etc. Laptops need to be mostly self-contained and having five different dongles won't really work too well.
Totally agreed, plus it is another conversion, which may not sound bad to many people out there, but in my field (audio) conversions=possible degradation of the source material=:(.

[shawnce]

Totally agreed, plus it is another conversion, which may not sound bad to many people out there, but in my field (audio) conversions=possible degradation of the source material=:(.

FW 400 and 800 conversion does not affect the data, it is mostly a pin out issue.

[eclipse]

What is this? Are they trying to connect everything up wireless? Is the next PB going to have an internal airport or something?:confused:

[eclipse]

Oh, and I agree, less dongles! And they smell bad.:p

[randas]

What is this? Are they trying to connect everything up wireless? Is the next PB going to have an internal airport or something?:confused:

Internal airport? sounds hitech and futureistic!

hold up, thats been standard for as long as i can remember

[wnameth]

Internal airport? sounds hitech and futureistic!

hold up, thats been standard for as long as i can remember
yea since 03:eek:

[strange days]

i have just bought 4 x 300Gb SEAGATE external firewire hard disks; and i would have not bought the USB2 version no matter what.

i've tried and compared external HD data transfer between USB2 and FW400, and let me tell you USB2 is CPU intensive and buggy ( when you're multitasking ), while FW is just perfect ( and not CPU intensive, since a dedicated chip takes care of the data flow ).

die USB2, die !!!

[igetit]

Man am I happy I bought my new PB 17". I took a lot of crap from the "Intel Hopefools":rolleyes: about not waiting for the next generation of portables. In all honesty as of right now I don't even care. I will be happy with my new PB for at least three to four years. I won't have to update all my sound recording software any time soon and I get to use any DV camera in the market (at least for now):D

[faintember]

FW 400 and 800 conversion does not affect the data, it is mostly a pin out issue.
True, but it is another physical conversion. Audio interface to FW 400 cable to FW400/800 adapter to computer just adds another possible place for problems to occur. Ehhh maybe i am wrong...:confused:

[jane doe]

They wont be dropping firewire and they wont be doing an adapter.

Do make an adapter will cost the same per port to make as it would to simply place the port on the board.

[Yvan256]

So if your PowerBook weighed 8 pounds and was 2 inches thick and was big, blue, and ugly, would it still help the Mac experience? The Macintosh experience IS partly hardware. Clean lines, small notebooks, stylish metal. The iMac G5 is another great example of this. It looks like a monitor but is really a computer. OS X adds to it making it complete. The iMac could have been 5" thick, loud, hot, noisy, but it IS NOT. Apple makes hardware and software for a reason; to make sure they both work correctly.

Well, if you had the choice between an ugly beige box that ran OS X or a stylish iMac-style computer that ran Windows XP, which one would you choose? ;)

Fortunately, we don't have to choose between the two.

Also, it seems I was misunderstood by a lot of people: sure, FireWire is used by a lot of devices, and it would be a bad move for Apple to remove it from their computers (especially in the short and medium term). However, for every FireWire device you can find, there's at least a dozen similar devices that only supports USB 2.0. And in fact, trying to find FireWire devices in regular computer stores (not chains) is actually pretty hard.

I do have to agree, however, that Apple may leap forward everything else with a "wireless firewire". It would be nice to have less cables and it actually fits Apple's computing vision (easier setup and overall cleaner look).

[Yvan256]

Pretty hard to do without making USB 3.0 incompatible with USB 2.0 and 1.1. It would mean completely different chipsets in the new devices that wouldn't work with older devices. Plus, I don't think USB will ever do daisy-chaining like FireWire can.

I don't think it's a problem, all they'd need to do is to make USB 3.0 chipset have a built-in CPU (like FireWire, I think) to do all the work instead of the computer itself. Devices wouldn't know the difference and it could even make USB 2.0 devices faster, closer to their 480 Mbps limit.

The same thing happened back in the RS-232 days, when they added FIFO buffers to the chips (less data dropped by the CPU, less handshaking handled by the CPU, faster overall speeds). It allowed new faster speeds while still making old devices perform close to their maximum speed (and allowed older computers to reach new speeds with a simple new interface between the computer and modem).

[Yvan256]

i have just bought 4 x 300Gb SEAGATE external firewire hard disks; and i would have not bought the USB2 version no matter what.

i've tried and compared external HD data transfer between USB2 and FW400, and let me tell you USB2 is CPU intensive and buggy ( when you're multitasking ), while FW is just perfect ( and not CPU intensive, since a dedicated chip takes care of the data flow ).

die USB2, die !!!

I do agree that for now, FireWire beats USB by a wide margin. I, myself, buy FireWire devices when I have a choice (well, except for a scanner - I'm gonna wait for the scanning anyway, there's no need to double the price to have a FireWire scanner).

They could, however, make better USB chipsets that aren't CPU intensive (see my reply above). Just because current chipsets aren't good doesn't mean the protocol itself is bad and can't be improved.

I guess we'll see what Apple does in January. I do agree about dongles though (I have a 12" PowerBook, that mini-DVI is annoying, I need a dongle for either VGA, DVI or S-Video...)

[Mechcozmo]

Well, if you had the choice between an ugly beige box that ran OS X or a stylish iMac-style computer that ran Windows XP, which one would you choose? ;)

I'd care if the WinXP computer was quieter, went to sleep and woke up easily (or that damned Hibernation thing), etc. then I'd consider the WinXP one. Why? Because it isn't the looks so much as the functionality. The ability to close the PowerBook and have it sleep has as much to do with hardware as it does with software. (Magnets in the latch)


However, for every FireWire device you can find, there's at least a dozen similar devices that only supports USB 2.0. And in fact, trying to find FireWire devices in regular computer stores (not chains) is actually pretty hard.
I am finding this had to believe... I've seen usually a fair number of FW-only devices as well as a lot of mixed FW/USB devices. I was in a very small computer store where the clerk told me it was probably best to get a FireWire PCI card for $10 and the CD-RW they had for $20 than to buy the $15 USB 2.0 one. Interesting conversation, but it ended with the drive needed to be USB 1.1 compatible otherwise I'd have gone with the FireWire variant.

[iMan]

http://www.1394ta.org/Press/2004Press/may/5.10.a.htm

"Use of the IEEE 802.15.3 MAC and Wireless 1394 standards enables immediate product development. Product engineers familiar with FireWire already have the expertise required to collaborate with RF engineers in designing the next generation of wireless equipment such as set top boxes, HDTVs, tuners and DVD players. All of these wireless products will be able to interoperate. Also, the wireless PAL supports IEEE P1394.1 bridges, so new wireless devices will connect to and work with existing FireWire products. "

"Consumers will benefit as we bring together the convenience of wireless technology with the high speed and high-quality real-time performance of FireWire at 400 Megabits/second speeds.”


This from May 2004 - I really believe it is coming. Mac's will have firewire, just not the ports we're used to... this is obviously a far more convenient solution than what we have today - another effort from Apple to completely remove the cable clutter.

[grapes911]

This from May 2004 - I really believe it is coming. Mac's will have firewire, just not the ports we're used to... this is obviously a far more convenient solution than what we have today - another effort from Apple to completely remove the cable clutter.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course it is coming. Personally, I can't wait. But that is not the point. By your reasoning, notebooks should not come with an ethernet port because they have build-in wireless.

[iMan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course it is coming. Personally, I can't wait. But that is not the point. By your reasoning, notebooks should not come with an ethernet port because they have build-in wireless.

At some point that will happen - but the difference is still huge; for wifi you need a $100 periferal for it to work - it is one connection to your computer only, and it is a network to communicate with so you always keep it "on".
For FW you have a point to point connection mostly to equipment with no life of it's own, used primarily in shorter periods and there are usually multiple sources - each with its own cable; so if you can provide one cheap "hub" or something for old equipment you are done (might even be included with the laptop) - for anything new (camcorders, cameras, hd etc) the wireless ability is already built in, so no need for extra stuff...
Benefit: you loose a lot of cables, easy access to other hardware even when moving the laptop around the room, ever had all FW ports used? no more problems with that...
It might even easily set you up for streaming videos, images and such to your TV set/projector etc.

[ebunton]

Isn't USB2 similarly fast as Firewire?

[rendezvouscp]

USB2 is actually supposed to be faster than FW400, but when timed FW400 is at least the same speed, but usually considerably faster than USB2. This depends on what you're doing though: since the two transfer data in different ways, FW400 can be the same in some tests and faster in others.
-Chase

[immaculate]

I can. I don't like to carry anything more than necessary when I'm traveling with my PowerBook. This dongle thing would really suck; something else to be lost, stolen, damaged, etc. Laptops need to be mostly self-contained and having five different dongles won't really work too well.

I guess this may mean that the 12" PowerBook finally gets FW800 though, eh?:rolleyes:

According to Think Secret, there isn't going to be a 12" PowerBook for much longer.

[ephix]

not sure if this has been mentioned, but,

maybe they are dropping FireWire 400, but keeping FireWire 800 (using a connector for backwards compatibility). That could make sense.

edit: after actually reading some.. yes it has been mentioned.

[~Shard~]

not sure if this has been mentioned, but,

...

edit: after actually reading some.. yes it has been mentioned.

Yes it has, which makes your post rather redundant... :p ;) Next time please read the thread first - you'll save yourself some time. :)

[grapes911]

At some point that will happen Not anytime soon like you propose with firewire. You can't get the same security wirelessly. You can't guarantee no interference. I don't think wireless will destroy wired lan connections anytime soon. - but the difference is still huge; for wifi you need a $100 periferal for it to work ??? Why do you need to spend $100 to get online wirelessly?- it is one connection to your computer only, and it is a network to communicate with so you always keep it "on". So? I don't think you can turn firewire off, nor would I want to.
For FW you have a point to point connection mostly to equipment with no life of it's own, used primarily in shorter periods and there are usually multiple sources - each with its own cable; so if you can provide one cheap "hub" or something for old equipment you are done (might even be included with the laptop) Or you can daisy chain them. Still requires their own wire, but they do not require a hub or something. That is one of the many brilliant features of firewire. - for anything new (camcorders, cameras, hd etc) the wireless ability is already built in, so no need for extra stuff... So you want be to buy a new camcorder, camera, and hard drive. You got to be out of your mind. I spent to much already, I'm not purchasing new wireless devices any time soon.
Benefit: you loose a lot of cables, easy access to other hardware even when moving the laptop around the room,First two things to said that I like hearing, but what about all the devices I already have? ever had all FW ports used? no more problems with that...Never had that problem, and I never expect to. Again, that is the beauty of daisy chaining.
It might even easily set you up for streaming videos, images and such to your TV set/projector etc.3rd thing you said that I liked, but still doesn't satisfy my older devices.

You have good points on why we should have wireless firewire. No one is arguing that though. None of this changes the fact that wired firewire is too important to throw away. Again, 802.11b/g is great. It pretty much replaces ethernet on laptops. It does not totally replace it. There are times that I can find a wired connection, but no wireless. There are people working with sensitive data and are not allowed to use wireless. Firewire is very similar in the fact that there are times when wired firewire would be better than wireless firewire (like if a device is wired). Yeah, wireless would be great, but it doesn't change the fact that too many people rely on wired firewire. It should be a compliment thing, not an either or.

[etype]

I purposely purchase FireWire (400) devices (external FW400 HD, external FW800 HD, 2 iPods, video camera, iSight) when the option is available because I don't want my CPU to be constantly interrupted to keep the conversation going with the device. I've never looked into what the actual penalty for USB devices is in real life situations. The second reason is that I then need fewer wires connected to my PowerBook and daisy chain whatever I need to the end of my external HDs and forego any hub.

[jocool5]

Hi all, i am not sure if this was discussed, but Will there he a target disk mode type of feature then. I know it only works on firewire ported macs. If they lost that feature then what is this world comming to that is one of the best saving features for getting back data that is important. Well is anyone knows dose usb2 work with the target disk mode or other cables????
joe

[grapes911]

Well is anyone knows dose usb2 work with the target disk mode or other cables????
Firewire is the only way to do it. But it probably wouldn't be to hard for apple to implement it via USB. Don't worry though, firewire is not going anywhere for a long time.

[jocool5]

i know but if the rumor was true it would be time to get creative at the help desk as that is the way that we trouble shoot hd issues and recover data.

[grapes911]

i know but if the rumor was true it would be time to get creative at the help desk as that is the way that we trouble shoot hd issues and recover data.
Even if the rumor was true, they wouldn't abandon target mode. They'd figure something out. Not only is it useful, but their Migration Assistant depends on it.

[prewwii]

FW400 has made a significant inroads into the computer peripheral market where as FW800 has not. So why do we need FW800?

What we all need is a faster external bus. Something that will keep up to or surpass today's and tomorrow's hard drive performance. FW800 can not match the performance of the Apple's current line of SATA hard drives.

If there were a cheaper system that would keep up with the 1.5Mb/s and faster hard drives would it make sense to use it? External SATA costs less to implement than FW800 and has that needed performance.

If any FW port is being left out its the FW800 port. The latest versions on the iMac have already dropped the FW800 port.

As many have pointed out FW400 and USB2 are nearly equal in performance and both have significant market penetration. Neither can meet the performance needs of SATA hard drive. We need more performance than even FW800 can provide and Apple needs to lower its costs. SATA accomplishes both criteria.

Jim

[Peace]

FW400 has made a significant inroads into the computer peripheral market where as FW800 has not. So why do we need FW800?

What we all need is a faster external bus. Something that will keep up to or surpass today's and tomorrow's hard drive performance. FW800 can not match the performance of the Apple's current line of SATA hard drives.

If there were a cheaper system that would keep up with the 1.5Mb/s and faster hard drives would it make sense to use it? External SATA costs less to implement than FW800 and has that needed performance.

If any FW port is being left out its the FW800 port. The latest versions on the iMac have already dropped the FW800 port.

As many have pointed out FW400 and USB2 are nearly equal in performance and both have significant market penetration. Neither can meet the performance needs of SATA hard drive. We need more performance than even FW800 can provide and Apple needs to lower its costs. SATA accomplishes both criteria.

Jim


Perhaps this is the answer :

http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2147444/intel-calls-ieee-drop-uwb

[jocool5]

i tend to agree if apple got rig of firewire how would they do the dv input for video editing, external hardrives, some ipod links. there would have to be a massive converter cable. then there also would have to be a power voltage of 9 volts coming from one of the pairs.
They better not drop firewire or all _____ will break loose

[prewwii]

Perhaps this is the answer :

http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2147444/intel-calls-ieee-drop-uwb

Thanks Peace for the information.

At this time wireless for this function seems to fall short of bandwidth. Current SATA tops out at 3Mb/s and the wireless in this article at 0.5Mb/s significantly less performance.

I think that the O'Grady article is half right, FireWire 800 was still born and will not be with us long. FW400 achieved significant market penetration but the promise of much higher performance from the FireWire approach is not looking good. Where as external SATA is looking better each day. So FW400 will be around for awhile and I think SATA will come roaring on the scene bring real life to external drives.

With all the conversation about digital centers there needs to be a massive amount of storage in the home to store video and audio. That storage needs to be accessed at much higher rates than can be done with FW800. I see some kind of storage farm in a closest of the ultra digital home in the next few years with a miniMac like box accessing it.

Jim

[grapes911]

As many have pointed out FW400 and USB2 are nearly equal in performance and both have significant market penetration. Yes, others have said this, but they are wrong. FW400 and USB2 are no where near equal.

Neither can meet the performance needs of SATA hard drive. We need more performance than even FW800 can provide and Apple needs to lower its costs. SATA accomplishes both criteria.Very true. But at the time, SATA is limited to hard drives and similar (as far as I know, someone tell me if I'm wrong). That doesn't count for the many other uses of FW./QUOTE]

[prewwii]

Yes, others have said this, but they are wrong. FW400 and USB2 are no where near equal.

Very true. But at the time, SATA is limited to hard drives and similar (as far as I know, someone tell me if I'm wrong). That doesn't count for the many other uses of FW./QUOTE]

According to several actual performance comparison reports that I have read FW400 turns out to be faster than USB2 in most applications although in theory the opposite is suppose to be true. The difference in actual performance seems to be handling of communication's overhead. That, to me, makes them nearly equal in performance.

I am not well versed in the various uses of FireWire. I had assumed that it performed a fast SCSI like function which is what SATA does. Cameras and such look like a subset of external storage in my way of thinking. I have some understanding of SCSI from designing devices using the SCSI interface in the late 1970's.

For more general communications there are several versions of ethernet available. All of which exceed the capabilities of either FW or SATA. The downside of more complex communication schemes is cost of implementation.

Jim

[iMan]

Not anytime soon like you propose with firewire.

Not, soon - just eventually.. it's only been a few years since it took off - I hardly use my laptop wired anymore... it won't go back.

You can't get the same security wirelessly. You can't guarantee no interference. I don't think wireless will destroy wired lan connections anytime soon.

Well, I hear you say that. You might be right, but still it might be possible that the security is good enough for 99% of the time - especially if you are in the lowend laptop market... PBs still are going to be wired.


??? Why do you need to spend $100 to get online wirelessly?

Well, you don't need to.. but usually you need that airport or similar device...


I don't think you can turn firewire off, nor would I want to.

You would not turn it off, but maybe it will itself somehow... how often do you use your scanner... or printer... or all of your harddrives? My guess is that for most people these things just sits there most of the time - but this is a bit beside the point, just to illustrate the difference in always on network needs, and the on/off for periferals.


Or you can daisy chain them. Still requires their own wire, but they do not require a hub or something. That is one of the many brilliant features of firewire. So you want be to buy a new camcorder, camera, and hard drive. You got to be out of your mind. I spent to much already, I'm not purchasing new wireless devices any time soon.

Point was that your existing equipment are still usabel - thorugh some sort of "wireless firwire hub" - so you basically plug your stack into this one, and they are all wireless all of a sudden.

Remember also that it is the consumer, entry level laptops that will miss the cabled FW. PBs would still have the option - as will all desktops for a while I suspect. So the professionals are covered either way and the consumers will make the transition to more convenient means of connecting periferals rather quickly. In my world this makes sense...

Remember also that this is just a rumor - might of course turn out that all laptops still would feature the regular FW :) admittedly it would be easier to just keep one port on either system for a while... but I suspect Apple want these new line of laptops to be as thin as nano-players, and really rock the market... then something might just have to go...

[Randall]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Jason O'Grady of PowerPage.org claims (http://www.powerpage.org/archives/2005/12/the_apple_core_firewire_not_dead_but_its_on_life_support.html) that FireWire (IEEE 1394) will be completely missing from the rumored (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2005/11/20051130123242.shtml) Intel iBooks.

He also claims that the new Intel PowerBooks will lose FireWire 400 ports, and only retain a single FireWire 800 port to appease video professionals.
Contrary to what Mr. O'Grady says in his article, I have seen the opposite in the PC world. More and more PC motherboards are supporting IEEE 1394 (a.k.a. FireWire 400) and support is increasing, not being dropped.

Another thing behind Mr. O'Grady's reasoning is that FireWire has been moved out of the main page into obscurity. BFD...Guess what? USB has been relegated to the exact same area of the developer site!!

http://developer.apple.com/devicedrivers/usb/
http://developer.apple.com/devicedrivers/firewire/

USB and FireWire both used to have top-level "marketing" pages
(www.apple.com/xxx); now neither do.

Talk about blowing all kinds of holes into Mr. O'Grady's logic. Besides the fact that dropping FireWire 400 would never fly with the movie editors and camcorder users, of which there are quite a few. Bottom line is that this myth has been busted. Expect to see Firewire built into the next gen PowerBooks like we are all used to.

[Mechcozmo]

According to Think Secret, there isn't going to be a 12" PowerBook for much longer.

Damn. I liked the shiny metal-ness and stuff... at the time, it was better than the iBooks. Now, pitiful. PowerBooks! I want GigE and FW800 in a small, easy to carry and long-battery-lifed package! I am demanding!

If there were a cheaper system that would keep up with the 1.5Mb/s and faster hard drives would it make sense to use it? External SATA costs less to implement than FW800 and has that needed performance.

If any FW port is being left out its the FW800 port. The latest versions on the iMac have already dropped the FW800 port.

Does External SATA provide the same amount of power as FW800? The 'no-power-adapter' thing is really nice on the go (see my earlier posts about carrying less dongles).

And the iMacs never had FW800... if they did, it might have helped to increase the number of people who used it.

[prewwii]

Does External SATA provide the same amount of power as FW800? The 'no-power-adapter' thing is really nice on the go (see my earlier posts about carrying less dongles).


Neither FW800 or external SATA have power. F800 does not have power hence the different connector, less pins, compared to the FW400 connector. I think only FW400 (12v) and USB (5v) have power. From what I have read the amount of power available is between 5...15 watts depending on the implementation.

Jim

[Mechcozmo]

Neither FW800 or external SATA have power. F800 does not have power hence the different connector, less pins, compared to the FW400 connector. I think only FW400 (12v) and USB (5v) have power. From what I have read the amount of power available is between 5...15 watts depending on the implementation.

Jim

FireWire variants:
4-pin: Unpowered FW400 (i.LINK, IEEE 1394a)
6-pin: Powered FW400 (IEEE 1394a used by Apple)
9-pin: Powered FW800 (IEEE 1394b, used by Apple)

[prewwii]

FireWire variants:
4-pin: Unpowered FW400 (i.LINK, IEEE 1394a)
6-pin: Powered FW400 (IEEE 1394a used by Apple)
9-pin: Powered FW800 (IEEE 1394b, used by Apple)

Thanks for straightening me out. I read a white paper on firewire a few weeks ago and got the two reversed. All I had to do was pull out a FW400 cable to see my error.

Here is some information on the external SATA which makes no mention of power. However it does provide some comparisons between the two firewires available and the two external SATA schemes available.

http://www.sata-io.org/docs/External%20SATA%20WP%2011-09.pdf

I think I mentioned SATA at 1.5 & 3.0mb/s the correct frequency is 1.5 & 3.0Gb/s

Thanks for getting me back on track.

Jim

[Tupring]

why wouldnt the ibooks have firewire :confused:
Because PC users are switching and they don't like it.

[Randall]

Because PC users are switching and they don't like it.
lol that is just wrong. the ibooks are losing firewire to hlp distinguish them as a lower class portable compaired to the powerbook. A line that has become increaslingly hazy in recent months.

Take a look at newegg.com and you'll see that 99% of the motherboards offered have FireWire 400 and external SATA connectivity. The future is now.

[Mechcozmo]

Thanks for straightening me out. I read a white paper on firewire a few weeks ago and got the two reversed. All I had to do was pull out a FW400 cable to see my error.

Here is some information on the external SATA which makes no mention of power. However it does provide some comparisons between the two firewires available and the two external SATA schemes available.

http://www.sata-io.org/docs/External%20SATA%20WP%2011-09.pdf

I think I mentioned SATA at 1.5 & 3.0mb/s the correct frequency is 1.5 & 3.0Gb/s

Thanks for getting me back on track.

Jim

No problem. But the "No bus power" is a big issue; I hate when USB devices complain about too little power (grandparent's USB HDD) as well as even when a lot of stuff is plugged into my keyboard... Lots o' bus power is good.

[iMeowbot]

Here is some information on the external SATA which makes no mention of power.
That's right, there is no standard power connector for external SATA.

[prewwii]

No problem. But the "No bus power" is a big issue; I hate when USB devices complain about too little power (grandparent's USB HDD) as well as even when a lot of stuff is plugged into my keyboard... Lots o' bus power is good.

There are couple problems with bus power 1) unknown quanity as you have discovered. 2) No standardization of voltage. USB uses 5 volts and IEEE 1394a uses 12 volts.

I will throw in a third and forth which are related to each other in a way. Cable length and connector quality. With 5 volts there is not much noise immunity guard band so the cable and connector resistence comes into play if the cable is long, low quality or if the connector has resistance especially if daisy chained.

Twleve volts (FW800) allows for more noise immunity guard band if the hardware receiving the power needs 5 volts only. Cable length and connector quality will still be an issue, although probably not as much of an issue.

Then consider how the source supply in the computer is going to react to sudden changes in loading with hot plugging and shorts circuits whether intermediate or long term.

As an old circuit designer I tend to favor no power on the cables because costs start rising.

Jim

[Passante]

FW is not being discontinued. JUst switching from FW 400 to FW 800.

See this
http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.php/archive/firewire_popularity_grows_this_year_fw_800_set_to_flourish_in_2006/

[aswitcher]

FW is not being discontinued. JUst switching from FW 400 to FW 800.

See this
http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.php/archive/firewire_popularity_grows_this_year_fw_800_set_to_flourish_in_2006/


Yeah, that seems more reasonable than no firewire.

[channel2tv]

This has got to be the most ridiculous rumor I have ever heard. Just when iLink (FireWire) is getting popular with PCs, Apple is going to drop it? Get real!

Many video cameras need iLink to transfer videos, and USB ports aren't gonna cut it. As many have said earlier, Macs are often used for Video Editing, and is a crown jewel for the entire system. Without FireWire, Apple loses the only thing that the public perceives it to be good at.

Unless Apple feels suicidal right now, and decides to kill itself, FireWire is here to stay. Intel is not stupid enough to make Apple kill FireWire just when many of its PC clients are picking it up. It just doesn't make sense, at all.

[prewwii]

This has got to be the most ridiculous rumor I have ever heard. Just when iLink (FireWire) is getting popular with PCs, Apple is going to drop it? Get real!

Many video cameras need iLink to transfer videos, and USB ports aren't gonna cut it. As many have said earlier, Macs are often used for Video Editing, and is a crown jewel for the entire system. Without FireWire, Apple loses the only thing that the public perceives it to be good at.

Unless Apple feels suicidal right now, and decides to kill itself, FireWire is here to stay. Intel is not stupid enough to make Apple kill FireWire just when many of its PC clients are picking it up. It just doesn't make sense, at all.

I agree that killing FW400 (iLink) makes no sense.

The second issue is Apple needs to have a faster port to access to external drives. Neither FW400 or FW800 perform well enough when compared to external SATA which some PC's are being equipped with now.

Jim

[slinky0390]

cant you use any firewire device in a firewire 800 port.. i thought they were backwards compatable

[prewwii]

cant you use any firewire device in a firewire 800 port.. i thought they were backwards compatable

They are backward compatible electrical signals. The connectors are different with FW800 having more pins to accomodate adding power (12v) and ground. The additional pins and circuitry make FW800 more expensive to implement.

When a FW400 device is added to the chain the entire chain performs at FW400 levels.

Even with FW800 implemented that still leaves Apple short of performance for external hard drives compared to the current crop of Windows machines. Remember Apple, when the MacTel machines come out, will be the top shelve PC because it will be capable of running OS X, Windows and Linux native.

When a user wants they can buy one of these MacTel boxes and install all three operating systems. Then by using OS X exclusively for internet connectivity they can have all the Windows and Linux legacy stuff in a safe enviroment for less difference in cost than any Anti-what ever ware. Then they can stop doing the weekly maintenance associated with keeping the malware at bay on a Windows or Linux system. For buying an Apple box they get better hardware, more versatility and lower cost of ownership. For Apple to position themselves as that desktop provider they need to keep up to external I/O needs and industry standards. To me that means they need to get their external hard drive bottle neck fixed and there are no firewire solutions that can do that job.

Jim

[Randall]

They are backward compatible electrical signals. The connectors are different with FW800 having more pins to accomodate adding power (12v) and ground. The additional pins and circuitry make FW800 more expensive to implement.

When a FW400 device is added to the chain the entire chain performs at FW400 levels.

Even with FW800 implemented that still leaves Apple short of performance for external hard drives compared to the current crop of Windows machines. Remember Apple, when the MacTel machines come out, will be the top shelve PC because it will be capable of running OS X, Windows and Linux native.

When a user wants they can buy one of these MacTel boxes and install all three operating systems. Then by using OS X exclusively for internet connectivity they can have all the Windows and Linux legacy stuff in a safe enviroment for less difference in cost than any Anti-what ever ware. Then they can stop doing the weekly maintenance associated with keeping the malware at bay on a Windows or Linux system. For buying an Apple box they get better hardware, more versatility and lower cost of ownership. For Apple to position themselves as that desktop provider they need to keep up to external I/O needs and industry standards. To me that means they need to get their external hard drive bottle neck fixed and there are no firewire solutions that can do that job.

Jim
Agreed. External SATA connector here we come!!

P.S. Apple should replace the FW800 connector with an external SATA connector (already available on a lot of the recent PC motherboards I have been seeing.) They should keep the FireWire 400 connectors around, because I have seen many a camcorder use it. However, I have never seen a FireWire 800 device, and I don't think I ever will. SATA is 3.0 Gb/s!! Bouyah!!

[Demon]

this is a bogus rumor. Apple itself has FireWire peripherls, such as the iSight. it's 150USD. if they scrap the Firewire for the iSight, there will be many unhappy customers. (unless iSight will be built in to every single laptop and desktop of the future??)

[sphereboy]

this is a bogus rumor. Apple itself has FireWire peripherls, such as the iSight. it's 150USD. if they scrap the Firewire for the iSight, there will be many unhappy customers. (unless iSight will be built in to every single laptop and desktop of the future??)


wouldn't be the first time Apple makes us buy new hardware when the current hardware works just fine. But in any case, I doubt Firewire will be dropped. I don't see any reason why.

What would everyone do with External Firewire Hard Drives, etc.

[eclipse]

I hope you're right.
I don't want to have to buy more widget adaptors for my camera... I'm having trouble keeping track of the original one as it is!:confused: :o