ThinkSecret's MWSF Wrapup [Archive]

bigdog

Jan 3, 2003, 03:34 PM

I really don't like the sound of this but I suppose there isn't much we can all do. I appreciate what Apple does, and I'll be one of the last people to ever switch to Windows [I'm using WinXP right now at work and can't stand it] but at the same time, we're all getting these free programs and updates time after time.

One thing about recent [read: any mac that can run OS X] Macs is that everything has always, more or less, just worked. My father, a long time Windows user, who jokingly gives me grief about my choice of Macs, was blown away by the new G4 he helped set up at my mother's office. "I plugged in the printer, and it knew right away what kind it was. I plugged in the monitor and it gave me the brand and model number and suggested all these resolutions for it. It was amazing."
These sentiments were echoed come Christmas morning when he couldn't find the drivers for his camera to work on their freshly reformatted PC. Like Janie Porche [but male and admittedly harder on the eyes than a brillo pad] I was able to bust out my iBook and iPhoto and "save the day", so to speak. My sister-in-law's parents, two technophobes [the most advanced thing they've ever used was the basic cash register at the bakery they own] thought the way iPhoto and iTunes and all of the other iApps I was able to show off work together just amazingly.

While I can continue to show these programs and others to friends and family [turned a friend onto iCal last night after showing him how to add the Red Sox and Bruins' calendars] it will become increasingly harder to do so when newer features fall to the side as I cannot always afford the newest and best. That's why my desktop machine is still beige, and my iBook is a refurb. I look forward to amazing things coming from Cupertino, and I know that Apple is always going to amaze us, especially with Jobs as the ringleader of the iCircus. I can only hope that, as the popularity of Apple increases proportionally to the decrease of general patience with Microsoft, Apple realizes that the simplicity and beauty of these iApps, satisfying power user and novice alike, is something that pulls people to OS X. I'd like to believe that Apple will continue to provide core iApps for free, but I know that's really wishful thinking.

Remember, of course, how many people thought the rumormills were smoking kitty litter when the iTools + $50 = .Mac equation hit the news wire...

nanosound

Jan 3, 2003, 03:35 PM

Yeah, it makes sense they'll charge, just like they do for .Mac and each revision of X. They have to make money somehow, especially since their pro machines just aren't selling too well (gee, I wonder why?).

mymemory

Jan 3, 2003, 03:40 PM

iCal: I couldn't care less.
iTunes: Nice, enogh with iTunes 2, I doub it can sounds better with the original Mac audio outputs.
iMovie: Extra nice, worth the upgrade.
iDVD: I'll see, there are lots of things needed to be added.

BTW .Mac... I see no future for it.

I guess that is it.

vallette

Jan 3, 2003, 03:47 PM

The package includes iMovie, iDVD, and iPhoto. The upgrade to iMovie 2.0 was $49, the upgrade to iDVD 2.0 was $20. What's the big deal? You get 3 upgrades for the price of upgrading to iMovie 2.0. You still get the software free when you by a Mac, you only pay if you want new features. BFD.

richard5mith

Jan 3, 2003, 03:50 PM

iCal, iMovie and iDVD for $49 wouldn't be bad, especially since they charged for the last iMovie update as well (v2.0), so this isn't a new thing. Although if they had any sense, they'd include them with the .Mac subscription.

Although I'm starting to wonder if they do have any sense. :)

As for the rest of the predictions, like they point out, they were right on the money last show time. And apart from the Superdrive/Powerbook thing a couple of months ago, they're usually always on the money. A tablet though.... that's a hell of a secret to keep. But if it runs OS X, that'd certainly explain the VERY strange addition of inkwell in 10.2.

Oh I don't know. But I've got the day off work on Tuesday to watch.

dguisinger

Jan 3, 2003, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by alset
I will be very sad if my week old Airport network is already obsolete. On the other hand, bring on more things we can brag about to our PC friends!

Dan

Actually, there are several vendors (linksys comes to mind) that have announced they begun to ship 802.11g equipment for PCs. I use both PCs and Macs. Several years ago it was something to brag about........Apple took Lucents OEM PC Cards and bundled them in macs at $99, while Lucent and the competition sold them for $500. Now, 802.11b and 802.11g equipment from companies like LinkSys sell for under $100, infact closer to $75. Apple may be the first system vendor to use the faster g spec out of the box, but it is no longer the case of Apple setting a new trend. Apple set the wireless trend several years ago, and now the PC world has caught up. Since G is compatable with B, most companies will just phase out B production and insert G instead. (note, backwards compatable at 11Mbps).

-Dan

Durandal7

Jan 3, 2003, 03:51 PM

Give it a rest and stop bitching about the iApps. iMovie 2 was $49, why shouldn't they charge for iPhoto and iDVD? You should all be grateful that it isn't $49 for each program instead of complaining about how Apple is dooming itself and that you think all Software, OS upgrades and web hosting should be free for life.

dguisinger

Jan 3, 2003, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Durandal7
Give it a rest and stop bitching about the iApps. iMovie 2 was $49, why shouldn't they charge for iPhoto and iDVD? You should all be grateful that it isn't $49 for each program instead of complaining about how Apple is dooming itself and that you think all Software, OS upgrades and web hosting should be free for life.

I agree. I know I sure get spoiled easily, but companies in this economy are diving head first into the ground if they don't charge for what services they provide. While it would be suicide to charge $49 each, $49 for a bundle isn't that bad.

Personally, with 10.3 coming a few months down the road with some new desktop models.........the savings along with the performance benifits seem worth it to upgrade my FP iMac.

But who knows, although ThinkSecret was right in July...lets wait and see what the real announcement is. Maybe its a two-way approach....maybe $50, or free upgrades if you use .Mac......you never know. Using that apprach, they satisfy two groups....the group who doesnt wan't .Mac.....who wouldn't want to pay the extra $50 for services they don't want..........and the .Mac group, who aren't happy at paying $99 for the services and would like more things included.

-Dan

g30ffr3y

Jan 3, 2003, 04:00 PM

id say that charging for i-app upgrades isnt a bad idea and since all new macs still have them installed it wouldnt really effect any new switchers... but i must contradict that as i just purchased a gig powerbook last month with what will soon be old versions of these apps... that kinda sucks since the $3000.00 is a little steep in the first place and now another fifty to get the upgrades... im already paying for the .mac when i used to have itools free... such is the life a mac user... but id never go back to m$ so out comes my visa...

pyrotoaster

Jan 3, 2003, 04:10 PM

I agree that paying for iApp updates kinda sucks, but paying for anything kinda sucks, so there's really no point in dwelling on it. Apple does need to make money, they just need to make the prices right for their users.
I think most of us would be okay with inexpensive quality apps. Offering the upgrades in bundle form only isn't a good idea, though. Of iPhoto, iMovie, and iDVD, I only use iPhoto regularly, and would be more willing to pay let's say $20 for iPhoto 2 than $50 for all three.
What perplexes me is the lack of any hardware of any sort, that's why I'm willing to put some faith in the possibility of a tablet.:D

g30ffr3y

Jan 3, 2003, 04:14 PM

just to feed the tablet rumor... i was watching tech tv last week and id swear that i saw a tablet that looked just like the screen of an imac... they didnt say anything about it, but id swear thats what it was... anyway... as far as the iapps go... im sure panther [cheetah, pinot... whatever 10.3] will have current versions of all the iapps when we have to shell out for that... so who knows... i just want an ipod...

henryblackman

Jan 3, 2003, 04:16 PM

While I personally wouldn't probably spend the money (as long as it's less than $50 for the whole lot of upgrades), I think Apple - while perhaps acting like a business instead of the company we've known and loved - will be shooting itself in the foot.

iApps are currently what is selling hardware, without decent and FREE, iApps, Apple - right now at least - has NOTHING to compete with. Mac OS X isn't what people see when it comes to doing something with their computer, it's the iApps. Mac OS X doesn't do anything that a computer shouldn't be expected to do... iApps make a Mac a Mac and somewhat better than PCs. Otherwise I'd be running Linux or FreeBSD :-(

Take away free iApps and you take away what people do with their machines. What does that leave. EXPENSIVE hardware thats all.

I hope Thinksecret is wrong. If they are right, at least about the iApps, it's going to be a very quiet Macworld. What's the point of streaming it if there is nothing being announced. Anyway, isn't it true that Steve writes his keynotes only the day before to ensure people don't know what's coming...

pyrotoaster

Jan 3, 2003, 04:32 PM

I was struck by the last sentence of this part of Think Secret's article: "We can't see Steve Jobs doing a keynote with just a bunch of iApp announcements and a new AirPort base station as the main items. There are rumblings of something bigger than any of this; something Apple should be congratulated for keeping under such tight wraps, if true. Let's say it's 40% inspiration, 60% clues, but we wouldn't be totally surprised to see an innovative tablet Mac in the $1100 to $1500 range. Just think of it...Inkwell handwriting recognition, iSync capabilities, Bluetooth and a PCMCIA slot for an optional AirPort card. Just like the iMac, it's time for Apple to innovate again."
I think it is time for Apple to innovate again, and when put like that, I think a very different tablet is on the way.:)

bbarnhart

Jan 3, 2003, 04:34 PM

You still get a copy of all the iApps when you buy a new computer. The upgrades to future newer version is what you will be paying for. In my opinion, that seems fair. No one says you have to upgrade.

(Now watch Apple make .Mac dependant on the newest versions of its iApps)

Codemonkey

Jan 3, 2003, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by g30ffr3y
that kinda sucks since the $3000.00 is a little steep in the first place and now another fifty to get the upgrades... im already paying for the .mac when i used to have itools free... such is the life a mac user... but id never go back to m$ so out comes my visa...

I feel the same way... I always take into account the total package... which helps in justifying the steep-ish prices (like everyone seems to say: feature for feature the Mac is a better deal... right?). So by charging for these once-included features (irregardless of upgrades pricing in the past), you've detracted from the overal value of the Mac platform. Kicked the platform right out from under it, in fact.

By charging for every little thing and for all intents and purposes keeping their hardware prices the same is pretty underhanded. Here's an example...

2003 [insert car make and model here]*:
$24 000

* This does not include tires, or mirrors.

Obviously, some MFG's already do this. How do you feel about it when you end up paying $27 000 for that same car? Pretty jilted. And pretty soon Dell, Gateway et al will be advertising "Get a new computer for $xxx, no surprises. Honest"

Anyway, this turned a bit ranty, so I digress. After spending mucho $$ on a computer, some more on .Mac, and various low-impact upgrades (and over 3k on 3rd party software), More $$ to enjoy what used to be a given makes me sad...

jettredmont

Jan 3, 2003, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by edvniow

802.11g is backwards compatible with Airport which uses 802.11b.

True, but like all other backwards-compatible standards, note that your 802.11b equipment won't magically become faster until both sides of the connection are replaces by 802.11g.

Also, I don't know if 802.11g access points will be able to simultaneously connect to 802.11b and 802.11g clients. While this isn't a huge issue at home, it could be an issue in the workplace. Of course, corporate situations generally favor the more mature 802.11a product with 11 discrete channels (802.11g like 802.11b has three discrete channels amongst 11 non-discrete channels) and more containable range (yes, the ability to hack a company's servers from across the street is actually a problem ...).

802.11g is not yet standardized, too, which could be a problem. Last I saw it would be around May of this year (2003) before the standard could be finally ratified. Granted, hardware makers have a history of jumping the gun on pending standards, and Apple I think pushed AirPort using 802.11b out the door before that standard was ratified, but standard ratification does affect product availability and thus cost.

Nonetheless, if all new Macs were to sport 802.11g hardware, that would be a good future-looking investment, and you'd be ready to switch to 802.11g when you change your access points over, and until then can stay with 802.11b ...

pyrotoaster

Jan 3, 2003, 04:50 PM

Think Secret's report says, "we hear something Apple will announce Microsoft won't be happy about" while talking about the possibility of an Apple web browser.
I admit there are good chances of an iWeb or something like that (especially since the man in charge of the Chimera project went to work for Apple), and that would anger Microsoft (bye, bye Explorer).
But a tablet would also anger Microsoft, wouldn't it. Gates has been putting so much into the tablet (the results are like the monsters in Metroid Prime, laptops with screens that twist and turn around), that a kick-@$$ Apple tablet would really piss off Microsoft. More reasons to love the idea! :D

totally_fly

Jan 3, 2003, 04:51 PM

if u care so much about the price, get the updates on carracho.. god..

if you're pathetic, you can even use hotline.. stop whining

Flowbee

Jan 3, 2003, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by Codemonkey

Obviously, some MFG's already do this. How do you feel about it when you end up paying $27 000 for that same car? Pretty jilted. And pretty soon Dell, Gateway et al will be advertising "Get a new computer for $xxx, no surprises. Honest"

What the...???

Obviously, we don't know for sure what will be announced, but come on... The rumor *isn't* that Macs will ship without iApps, but rather that they will begin to charge for upgrades.

I think your car analogy is way off the mark.

Besides, when did Steve ever promise free upgrades for life??

(And BTW, just try to find a comparable notebook to the gig PB for under $3k)

dmealiffe

Jan 3, 2003, 05:00 PM

The best way for Apple to introduce Bluetooth to the current product line would be to retail a combo 802.11/Bluetooth card.

Contrary to popular belief, this is very possible. In fact, it's already in the works, according to a news tidbit from the Bluetooth SIG. Note the January time frame for availability.

Trio Work On Combined Bluetooth/802.11 Module
December 11, 2002

Embedded Systems Programming

CSR (Cambridge Silicon Radio), Intersil and SMART Modular Technologies have collaborated to produce a mini-PCI card combining Bluetooth and 802.11b wireless protocols.

The combo card uses CSR's channel skipping technology, minimising interference between the Bluetooth and 802.11 radios and improving the throughput of the Bluetooth radio by as much as 50 percent over solutions that rely on MAC level signalling. SMART expects to make samples of the card available in January 2003...

http://www.bluetooth.com/news/news.asp?A=2&PID=404

Since both 802.11b/g and Bluetooth play at 2.4 GHz, the existing antenna's built into our Mac's would do nicely, thank you very much.

So.... why not a new version of an Airport card that is 802.11g & Bluetooth? Too ambitious? Okay... a 802.11b and Bluetooth Airport card.
The peripherals would/could come in time.

Airport is already overpriced compared to our PC brethren. The additional cost of the Bluetooth chipset could justify this current premium.

Wishful thinking, perhaps. :)

D

arnette

Jan 3, 2003, 05:03 PM

As long as the iApps aren't subscription-based or tied into .Mac, I have no problem with Apple charging for the upgrades.

Charge for minor patches. No.
Included with system purchase. Yes.
Charge for major upgrades/added features. Yes.

I want Apple to be profitable... I don't want to help sink the ship.

Gelfin

Jan 3, 2003, 05:24 PM

Well, that said, I think it would be a fantastic idea if my existing .mac subscription included complimentary iApp upgrades as a perk. It would make perfect sense and, would not involve charging me anything I'm not already committed to paying. Free for .mac subscribers or $50 for non-subscribers would be great.

In any case, though, that's a huge bargain for the quality of the software. I knew they couldn't keep giving that stuff away forever. Developing and supporting quality software is not cheap.

Billicus

Jan 3, 2003, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by bbarnhart
You still get a copy of all the iApps when you buy a new computer. The upgrades to future newer version is what you will be paying for. In my opinion, that seems fair. No one says you have to upgrade.

(Now watch Apple make .Mac dependant on the newest versions of its iApps)

Come on... I'm an avid Apple supporter, but realistically, what does Apple have going for it besides it's iApps? :confused: If Apple charged for iApps and made them dependent on .Mac, (:rolleyes: ) then what realistically is the benifit of a Mac over a cheaper PC?

Billicus

Jan 3, 2003, 05:26 PM

One more thing, if Apple doesn't include these charged upgrade in the future OS (think 10.3), and they are incompatible with the OS, then won't you be forced to upgrade to the newest iApps?

Codemonkey

Jan 3, 2003, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by Flowbee

What the...???

Obviously, we don't know for sure what will be announced, but come on... The rumor *isn't* that Macs will ship without iApps, but rather that they will begin to charge for upgrades.

I think your car analogy is way off the mark.

Besides, when did Steve ever promise free upgrades for life??

(And BTW, just try to find a comparable notebook to the gig PB for under $3k)

Right... my initial purchase of my Mac included the iApps... but not all of them. iCal, iSync etc. are downloaded after the fact. Then I upgraded to Jaguar. So in theory, this should upgrade my current crop of iApps as well, as they were included as part of the OS. The only ones it _might_ not include are the ones I've downloaded off of Apple.com.

Therefore, the apps that have been upgraded in parallel with the OS can't be plucked out for separate upgrade paths.

As well, I never once said that "Steve" promised us anything... be it .Mac for free, or iApps for free, or whatever. All I simply stated that the more they abstract from the OS, the less spectacular that product becomes.

Also, right now, right at this very moment I'm not disputing the value of Macs... again, you're reading what you want into my post.

Finally, you mention how you think my car analogy is off the mark, yet there's no evidence or even a better analogy backing it up. So I guess here's a hearty pat on the back and a "good for you!".

Toodles.

digitalbiker

Jan 3, 2003, 05:35 PM

How would a charge for upgrade only plan work?

Does this mean that if I buy the latest OS I get the latest iApps but long time users have to pay for the latest iApps?

Or do I get the old iApps when I buy the latest OS and then decide if I want to immediately pay for upgrades?

Will software update know the difference between an OS 10.2 user and an OS 10.3 user when they go to download bugfixes for common and uncommon iApps?

Will all iApps be bundled, I mean will I have to pay to upgrade iPhoto, Itunes, iCal, iMail, addressbook, iMovie, iDvd, etc. even if I only want iTunes?

This is the problem Apple gets into when they start people out with nice "free little apps" at the cost of increased hardware & OS prices.

They should have charged seperately to begin with, OS - one price, iCal-one price, iTunes-one price, etc. And each app should have survived or lost on their own real value merits. Based on Apples cost to develop them and Apples ability to charge for them.

I'll be surprized if Apple won't get sued for bundling "free applications with OS X", killing off competitors for such apps, and then turning around and charging for them after everyone who bought OS X standardizes on these apps.

Foucault

Jan 3, 2003, 05:35 PM

During the last major announcements (Powerbook and IBook configs) thinksecret was pretty darned close to their predictions. I always keep a keen eye on their website, because they are fairly accurate.

vallette

Jan 3, 2003, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Billicus
One more thing, if Apple doesn't include these charged upgrade in the future OS (think 10.3), and they are incompatible with the OS, then won't you be forced to upgrade to the newest iApps?

And what happens if they aren't compatible with my hardware??? I'll have to go out and buy a whole new computer!! It's Apple's plot to force me to upgrade my hardware I just know it!

Come on people let's not let the conjecture get out of hand.

Codemonkey

Jan 3, 2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by vallette

Come on people let's not let the conjecture get out of hand.

Heh... isn't that why we're all here?

vallette

Jan 3, 2003, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Codemonkey

Finally, you mention how you think my car analogy is off the mark, yet there's no evidence or even a better analogy backing it up. So I guess here's a hearty pat on the back and a "good for you!".

Toodles.

How about this analogy CodeMonkey: Your car may come with tires but if you want better ones you have to buy them yourself. Apple charged for iApp upgrades in the past and they're going to continue to do so. Big deal.

TTFN

Timothy

Jan 3, 2003, 05:56 PM

Sorry TS...I'll never give up on the future of the Apple PDA.

Ultra-portable computing is going to beomce increasingly important, despite the poor efforts spawned by Palm. I predict that PocketPC will overtake Palm in sales within 1 year, and Microsoft will not look back.

The Win world now has a viable, feature rich group of PDA's to choose from that sync quite nicely with their chosen working environment. Apple users have no such similar solution. And, this will become increasingly important in the lives of all computer users.

Apple will release an Ultra-portable computing solution, or face diminishing sales, once again, as buyers realize that Apple is not providing a comprehensive computing platform.

Oh, and there is no way that Apple will release a Tablet in the form-factor that has been released in the Windows world...

pyrotoaster

Jan 3, 2003, 06:00 PM

I'll get this out of me now, anyone who said bring on the upgrade fees is totally right. Paying for an iApp is better than having no iApp because Apple isn't profitable. With any luck, the fees will be worth it and tolerable.
But there are bigger fish to fry here!
This isn't the discussion about iApps, it's the discussion about Mac World!
A faster AirPort is pretty interesting (although not nearly as interesting as other things).
What about the possibility of an Apple web browser?
Or how about a freakin' tablet? That didn't interest anybody?
I think we should start thinking about what is so cool and important that Apple would find a way to actually keep it secret for so long!

Flowbee

Jan 3, 2003, 06:14 PM

The interesting thing is (if the iApp upgrade rumor is true) that Apple was probably expecting this would be a very welcome announcement. They charged $50 for the iMovie2 upagrade and $20 for the iDVD2 upgrade in the past. Now they're releasing version 3 of both of those and throwing in a new version of iPhoto... all for $50 total. What a deal! Right?

It seems that a lot of folks posting on this board have forgotten or never realized there were upgrade charges for this software in the past.

Rage on.

pyrotoaster

Jan 3, 2003, 06:27 PM

Flowbee is right, I think the bundled iApps are a good deal. It is also true, however that there are quite a few people that didn't know about the previous paid upgrade (myself included).

artistry

Jan 3, 2003, 06:33 PM

Re the car analogy above:

If your tires wear out, or you want to upgrade from a radio to a CD player, you pay for it.

The question is, if Apple didn't give away the iApps, what would you do? Pay for them from someone else. So you got a free demo of iMovie 2. You have a choice - you can still use it if you want, or you can pay $50 (apparently) for the new version and get other things too.

$50 is what third parties are charging for new transitions for iMovie, for heaven's sake. Do I hear people claiming that that is unfair? No, of course not.

Charging for an upgrade makes sound commercial sense. It's a revenue stream.
Hands up all those who work for someone who doesn't charge for what they do. Keep your hands up if you think you're gonna get paid this month.

Those people here who think that charging for them makes Macs irrelevant are forgetting why most of us use Macs, and why those who buy them choose them: ease of use. iMovie, iPhoto etc etc - if the history of the Mac were a year, these things appeared on Christmas Day. So what was so appealing the other 300-odd days?

Hang on, I'll make sense in a minute... ;)

lmalave

Jan 3, 2003, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by Timothy
Sorry TS...I'll never give up on the future of the Apple PDA.

Ultra-portable computing is going to beomce increasingly important, despite the poor efforts spawned by Palm. I predict that PocketPC will overtake Palm in sales within 1 year, and Microsoft will not look back.

The Win world now has a viable, feature rich group of PDA's to choose from that sync quite nicely with their chosen working environment. Apple users have no such similar solution. And, this will become increasingly important in the lives of all computer users.

Apple will release an Ultra-portable computing solution, or face diminishing sales, once again, as buyers realize that Apple is not providing a comprehensive computing platform.

Oh, and there is no way that Apple will release a Tablet in the form-factor that has been released in the Windows world...

I'm so with you there about Mobile computing, except I think you're totally wrong about the PocketPC taking over (but more on that later). I think the future of computing is destined to be an device more or less the size of an iPod, PDA, or phone, that can either be used as a phone, handheld PDA, or as a full computer. Think about it: built-in bluetooth for wireless connection to input devices, built in wireless networking, a high-bandwidth data port (the latest FireWire or USB technology), and a small video-out port like the iBook already has (so you can hook up VideoGlasses or even a folding screen - we're talking a few years in the future here).

I would take it one step further. Since mobile phones are much more widespread than any other mobile device and is the one mobile device that most people will carry with them at all times, then I think that for 90% of the public this PhonePDAComputer is all the computing power they would need. Think about it. Look at how much computing power is already packed into these phone/pda hybrids (and I'm not just talking Treo palm devices, I would include all these new Java enabled phones). As flash memory gets ever larger and cheaper, batteries longer-lasting, and mobile CPUs ever more powerful, I think the future clearly points to a single all-in-one device centered around a phone. That's why I think the PocketPC has no future. I wouldn't want to be in the Palm or Pocket PC business right now. I think they're going to get the rug completely pulled out from under them by the flood of cool new phones running Symbian and supporting Java. I guarantee you Nokia, SonyEricsson, and all the other phone makers are going to sell many, many times more of these phones than all the Palms and PocketPCs combined, and the PDA as we know it today will become a very niche market.

More about the future of computing:
Doesn't Viewsonic already have a wireless display? With wireless video technology and bluetooth you could just have your phone in your pocket, sit down at your desk, and all these wireless devices would automatically work with your pocket-size computer. For mobile use, an elegant folding keyboard with built-in trackpad, and a folding OLED screen. Maybe the folding display an keyboard even come together in one package, and you set it down on a flat surface, press a button, and it all automatically unfolds Transformer-style. Sure you have to spend a few seconds unfolding your Keyboard/Trackpad and screen, but how long does it take to boot up your laptop now? Keep in mind these mobile computers will have flash memory so they will be instant-on like PDAs are now.

It's gonna happen, folks. Only a matter of time. The only question for Apple is what this implies for the Digital Hub. My bet is that Apple WILL come out with some kind of mobile device. It will still market its Macs as a digital hub, but the main value they will provide will be much, much greater storage, and of course a larger display. Apple would be wise to start making its mobile device now so it can continue to develop it and improve it as the market shifts more and more toward mobile computers.

IJ Reilly

Jan 3, 2003, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
What about the possibility of an Apple web browser?
Or how about a freakin' tablet? That didn't interest anybody?

Apple browser: Virtually inevitable as part of Apple's long-term "freedom from Microsoft's evil clutches plan," but not terribly exciting.

Tablet computer: No proven market. Potentially a huge mistake, and the market is not kind to Apple when it makes even small mistakes.

pyrotoaster

Jan 3, 2003, 07:12 PM

I agree with IJ Reilly with the point that there is no proven market for the tablet, which is what's so good. Right now, Tablet PCs are ridiculously stupid in design, Apple has a very rare chance to innovate something before it has even entered a market.
Obviously, any Apple tablet would be geared toward the home user, I'd love to see this as it would be something totally new to the computing world.
You say it's a potentially a huge mistake. If Apple plays its cards right, it's only a potential mistake. So was the Newton and so was the iPod. You can't innovate without some stumbles along the way.
Steve Jobs's designs and schemes are among the best ever seen in the computing world. He's had few faliures (the most notable being the Cube and the Flower Power and Blue Dalmatian iMacs), but has successfully turned Apple around and introduced revolutionary products, iPod included.
I personally would rather see a PDA/DLD-Hybrid shaped like the iPod, similar to what lmalave was starting to describe.
But if Apple does introduce a tablet, I have confidence that it will be a viable product in the home market (although that price tag, $1100-1500, sounds a little high). There's nobody better for the job than Steve Jobs, he has the vision to make this thing work.

arnette

Jan 3, 2003, 07:15 PM

I think the Tablet idea in the PC world is the stupidest thing that's come around in a long time. The market where this is viable is so slim that I can't see why all these companies are being yanked around by MS to get one out.

Now if they had some sort of mini-tablet/PDA hybrid, that could work. But Apple doesn't have much of a presence in warehouse tracking, medical and hospital areas, etc. ... I just think a Mac Tablet is an awful idea for such a focused company such as Apple.

Damnit, pyrotoaster said pretty much what I did. Beat me to it.

jholzner

Jan 3, 2003, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by Codemonkey

I feel the same way... I always take into account the total package... which helps in justifying the steep-ish prices (like everyone seems to say: feature for feature the Mac is a better deal... right?). So by charging for these once-included features (irregardless of upgrades pricing in the past), you've detracted from the overal value of the Mac platform. Kicked the platform right out from under it, in fact.

By charging for every little thing and for all intents and purposes keeping their hardware prices the same is pretty underhanded. Here's an example...

2003 [insert car make and model here]*:
$24 000

* This does not include tires, or mirrors.

No it's more like this

2003 [insert car make and model here]
$24,000.00

*This does include tires, and mirrors...but if new and better ones come along...you have to buy them.

Hmm...well, that sounds reasonable doesn't it. Your STILL getting the iApps with a system...you just pay when something new and better comes out. It's like that with everything else...software is different I guess. I mean, think about all the bundled software (FREE) that comes with any computer both PCs and Macs...you don't get free upgrades to all of those, do you? Why not....they were free on the system! Actually they weren't, they were included in the price of the system. If you want the newest iApps...buy and new system and then they will be "free". Otherwise, you pay for the updates.

pyrotoaster

Jan 3, 2003, 07:20 PM

A tablet/PDA hybrid! Good, arnette! The reason Tablet PCs are bad is because they're laptops with screens you can write on. The tablet needs to be a small, fun gizmo. It has to have Inkwell and a powerful, but easy to use interface.
I'll admit that the reported price range on these tablets doesn't support the hybrid theory, but if they do materialize, they will be different than those wacky Wintel tablets. Apple doesn't want to add anything to or manipulate its laptop line. The recent updates to the iBooks and TiBooks are a good sign here.

arnette

Jan 3, 2003, 07:45 PM

Even if some kind of mini-tablet came out, I wouldn't be a buyer. I really don't have much use for something like that other than just to show off videos to co-workers and friends (just for the 'wow' factor).
Some of the apps that the Pocket PCs are running now are pretty impressive. I could envision a use for Inkwell in something like that for Apple. A completely writeable screen surface with Mac OS interface... pretty neat. Admittedly, these ideas make me smile but I have no idea how that would practically fit into Apple's grand scheme. I don't have high hopes for a machine like this but all of ThinkSecret's barkings makes me wonder about it.....

On a separate note, I'm excited about a new AirPort. Yea!:D

Codemonkey

Jan 3, 2003, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by jholzner

No it's more like this

2003 [insert car make and model here]
$24,000.00

*This does include tires, and mirrors...but if new and better ones come along...you have to buy them.

Hmm...well, that sounds reasonable doesn't it. Your STILL getting the iApps with a system...you just pay when something new and better comes out. It's like that with everything else...software is different I guess. I mean, think about all the bundled software (FREE) that comes with any computer both PCs and Macs...you don't get free upgrades to all of those, do you? Why not....they were free on the system! Actually they weren't, they were included in the price of the system. If you want the newest iApps...buy and new system and then they will be "free". Otherwise, you pay for the updates.

I bought "new and better". I bought Jaguar. And .Mac. Bleeding edge, n'est pas? Apparently not. All I'm saying is: where does it end?

Of course, nothing's free. However, included is included. It henceforth becomes a "package".

Especially when various iApps are mentioned in the 150+ new features of Jaguar.

At any rate. The news in general is exciting, and it doesn't say _all_ iApps. So color me positive.

And, from a personal perspective, depending on what comes out I'll be trading my Snow iMac in for a new spinning color widget thingy, which should come with new crap anyway.

Oh well. Apparently the time it took me to drive home was long enough to pretty much render this thread obsolete anyhow.

Toodles.

artistry

Jan 3, 2003, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by Codemonkey

I bought "new and better". I bought Jaguar. And .Mac. Bleeding edge, n'est pas? Apparently not. All I'm saying is: where does it end?

So by that reckoning Apple should stop improving its software? and Adobe, Quark, Macromedia? And all the car manuafacturers should stop trying to make them more fuel efficient, environmentally friendly and safer?

You could do what my old boss did - put off making a purchase because he reckoned the computers he signed for would be bettered within months. Over a year I sat there trying to turn out a monthly title on a 486 PC while I tried to convince him that you buy what you need when you need it. You are always going to wish you'd waited, but then if you'd waited you'd wish you'd bought...

Tue12

Jan 3, 2003, 10:26 PM

Apple's new marketing:

THINK WALLET.

:p

arnette

Jan 3, 2003, 10:43 PM

iCharge

johnwillo

Jan 3, 2003, 11:01 PM

Is a coincidence that high speed wireless and a tablet Mac might be rolled out at the same MacWorld? Suppose the tablet is little more than low-power G3 or G4 processor, display, batteries, and an 802.11g card. You could use it as a remote terminal for a much more powerful desktop machine elsewhere in your home/office. The same kind of software used in Apple Remote Desktop or Timbuktu could give you all the power of your dual-processor G4 Mac or XServe in a mobile form. The high speed wireless would allow the monitor to display the remote desktop with much higher fidelity and responsiveness than current solutions. Just a thought, I know nothing. Although I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

pyrotoaster

Jan 3, 2003, 11:20 PM

johnwillo has an interesting idea there. Although I don't think Apple will go down that road exactly, high speed air port could be very interesting in an iPad.

arnette

Jan 3, 2003, 11:27 PM

Just a thought, I know nothing. Although I [I]did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night... [/B]

Ok, that was damn hilarious. That's actually a good idea, but I don't think Apple would use that as a selling point or an Expo highlight.

Edot

Jan 3, 2003, 11:44 PM

Before we complain about the price, I think we should see what the updates provide. Some of these apps have not been updated for a long time. I am sure they have been working on them, and maybe the price for the upgrade will not seem so bad once they are released. Apple usually creates great products, and paying for them will only increase the quality of future products. Thinks about the future not just today.

IJ Reilly

Jan 4, 2003, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
johnwillo has an interesting idea there. Although I don't think Apple will go down that road exactly, high speed air port could be very interesting in an iPad.

I like this idea as well -- it plays off the Mac, possibly functioning as a DLD, and could potentially sell at a reasonable price. It mitigates some of my concerns about a free-standing tablet computer, which would be relatively expensive and not particularly compelling outside of the installed Mac base (and maybe not within it, either). I'd like to believe that Apple could come up with a tablet product which is more interesting than just a laptop with a stylus-sensitive screen, which is really all Microsoft has done.

Bandit

Jan 4, 2003, 09:57 AM

What if for the $50 upgrade iDVD is now compatible with 3rd party DVD drives? I'm sure there are a lot of people that would be willing to pay $50 for that.

aharon

Jan 4, 2003, 11:40 AM

I agree with johnwillo, in fact the PC market has already jumped on this concept,

http://www.viewsonic.com/smartdisplays/

Could Thinksecret be on to something? The airpanel retails in the range of $1,000 to $1,300 USD. Having a dual display system, with one display being an Apple branded "airpanel" would be invaluable to me as a designer, both at home and at work. I could take my prototypes to staff meetings or I could work in front of the tube, without having to boot up my iBook and transfer files.

I see huge value to this idea. And it makes sense to me that Apple would release such a product, what with the various technologies surrounding it, 802.11g, Inkwell, bluetooth, etc. etc.

pyrotoaster

Jan 4, 2003, 11:54 AM

Good find, aharon! Those Viewsonic things are the best Tablet PC I've ever seen. Imagine what Apple could do with that design idea, bluetooth, and high-speed Airport :D !

stromie952

Jan 4, 2003, 12:39 PM

The thing that bothers me the most is the "100% Guarantee" that there will be no iMac/eMac updates.

More than just about anything, the consumer machines need a speed boost.

I sold my iBook in anticipation for speed bumped iMacs this week.

Bah, I guess I'll have to wait like everyone else.....
:rolleyes:

pyrotoaster

Jan 4, 2003, 12:43 PM

Apple's consumer machines do need a speed boost, and it looks like we just have to wait a few weeks. The good news is that Think Secret's report hinted at faster Power Macs (I know they aren't consumer machines, but they are at the front of Apple's clock speeds).

Compufix

Jan 4, 2003, 12:45 PM

How about this....an iMac in a new enclosure with built in Svideo, Composite Video, DVI, Audio (RCA and Mini jacks) and of course FireWire, USB etc etc. In a DVD like enclosure that has a TV tuner built in like a TIVO or Replay TV type device, but also has a wireless display using bluetooth or 802.11g. Also ethernet of course for DSL/Cable connections. You can use a traditional monitor and this as a desktop computer, or put it in an entertainment system and use the remote panel as a laptop.

That sounds like a reality....surely the technology is there for it. Make the panel be wireless or have a DVI connector...add a stand and it is a desktop monitor....or a dual monitor as mentioned above.

All the iApps are there save the PVR stuff, you could even maybe add a real Radio tuner (or of course you have streaming audio...Broadband..)

Ohh yeah, lets also bring back the Remote from the 5200 TV days ....8-)....full system.

Let the flames begin....I am not saying it is going to happen....but I would buy the above system since I mostly use my laptop from my couch while watching TV....over my DSL....

One more thing. Plasma displays are coming down in price....why not have a Plasma display with DVI input be your entertainment screen.

-Compufix

pyrotoaster

Jan 4, 2003, 12:57 PM

Compufix's idea is cool, but too cool. Anything Apple tried like that would crash and burn like the Newton. It's too revolutionary for our time.
Currently more Americans own outhouses than TiVos. That makes Apple's market share look huge.
I think it'll be at least three years before we see something so integrated with our TVs. It really depends on whether or not PC companies look into the same technology and whether or not TiVo becomes a real force (or a small niche).
The technology probably does exist to make a really killer TV/iMac/TiVo/Tablet/Ethernet/etc. entertainment hub. There are two drawbacks to Apple, however:
1. Apple is still focusing on being the center of your digital hub, we've yet to migrate to the entertainment hub.
2. This would cost a fortune.
It sounds cool, though. :)

Just4IBMnApple

Jan 4, 2003, 01:36 PM

How about.................

The powerbook and Ibook .... with Touchscreens? And swivel hinges?

Yeah I would then get the Ti Book!!!

johnwillo

Jan 4, 2003, 01:41 PM

A (very) unlikely variant of my tablet-as-remote-desktop idea: would such a tablet even need to be Power PC-based? Given Marklar, Apple could use cheaper or faster PC hardware in a tablet...and you could still run your Power PC software on remote platforms. Now I'm positive that this won't happen, especially since Pentiums eat batteries like potato chips, but kind of an interesting idea.

pyrotoaster

Jan 4, 2003, 01:41 PM

How about.................

The powerbook and Ibook .... with Touchscreens? And swivel hinges?

And have a tablet just like all those terrible PC ones?! :eek:

Compufix

Jan 4, 2003, 01:43 PM

I have more and more friends looking into TIVO and Replay....I also have more and more people building hi end stereo systems. All this technology is coming down in price....

Think of this...Video production was ALWYAS a big ticket item for cost. Until a little company called NewTek released a video production studio on a card called the Video toaster for a little known home computer called the Amiga. It revolutionized the business.

I think that Apple could re-introduce their TV option with an updated PVR program (they already have YEARS with this technology in the Apple Video Player). Also...they already have functions like internet sharing...so basically with a wireless card, this COULD act like a linksys type product as well to share the internet connection with laptops. I think this is more doable than most people are thinking.

But, I am just an optimist that loves technology.

jamesnp

Jan 4, 2003, 01:59 PM

I would rather pay for a bundle of Apple iApps for €50 then I would pay €100 for an email address and a rubbish slow iDisk service (.Mac). Presumably the full updated iApps would come with Mac OS X updates that you buy and new Macs.... so it probably won't be too expensive.

-James

Just4IBMnApple

Jan 4, 2003, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by pyrotoaster

And have a tablet just like all those terrible PC ones?! :eek:

No man just an added feature to the existing models ...it'd be sweeet!

dabirdwell

Jan 4, 2003, 02:17 PM

Compufix, do you see the tablet portion as able to perform as a full-function notebook computer?

If so, this could change personal computing for the average consumer. You buy one computer now, to act as a desktop, a notebook, an entertainment center...

I will pay lots for this, could this be the high iMac pricing we saw predicted recently?

A special model?

...

pyrotoaster

Jan 4, 2003, 02:33 PM

What if Compufix's idea is like a Multimedia iMac?
Like the Multimedia Wintel (I don't remember who makes it, I just remember the commercial), but obviously much much better?

lmalave

Jan 4, 2003, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
Good find, aharon! Those Viewsonic things are the best Tablet PC I've ever seen. Imagine what Apple could do with that design idea, bluetooth, and high-speed Airport :D !

That's the thing, these Viewsonic units are not meant to be a full TabletPC, just a "smart display" in this respect I think they're a much better idea than the real TabletPCs. I could see Apple making detachable "smart displays" for the iMac. It's the kind of thing that you don't really "need", but once you start using will change the way you use your computer. Sometimes you just want to sit down in front of the TV and do some light surfing - the iPad and pen-based interface are perfect in this scenario. I could see myself actually reading and eBook on one of these, whereas I really can't sit down and read one on a laptop - just doesn't feel right.

I do think Apple will make detachable smart displays for the iMac, but they had better make it an option, otherwise it would add waaaaay too much to the price. This goes along with what I said in a previous thread that Apple might make the iMac display removable - not just for use with smart displays, but also just so you could upgrade your 15" to something larger. The iPad WILL happen, it's just a matter of when.