Revolution graphics on par with 360??? [Archive]

d_saum

Dec 13, 2005, 12:25 AM

I dont know if any of you have seen this before (Im sure someone in here has), but I just came across this (http://news.portalit.net/fullnews_Nintendo-Revolution-will-amaze-with-cutting-edge-graphic-capabilities_953.html) site and apparently the Rev could have some amazing graphics:::

Nintendo has filed patents for a technology called displacement mapping, which is a technique that is used to render detailed surfaces while successfully simultaneously keeping polygon count low.

Nintendo has filed two patents regarding the technology. One of them refers to a specialized hardware for vector operations, optimising the graphics hardware so that the displacement mapping is computed efficiently. The other one reduces the strain put on the CPU that is caused by rendering a 3d world in 2d.

The technology is not new but Nintendo is patenting its particular usage in Nintendo projects.

It is very likely that the technology be used in Nintendo upcoming game console, the Nintendo revolution.

It is believed that, with the power of displacement mapping Nintendo can achieve better graphics than the XBox 360 with much less power.

greatdevourer

Dec 13, 2005, 01:22 AM

Well done for posting yesterday's news. However, you have merely posted a crappy article. Not the real deal with demos.

http://www.playbomb.com/2005/12/11/124/nintendo-displacement-mapping-patents-discoverec/

281 polygons vs 5000 polygons = pwnd

TheMonarch

Dec 13, 2005, 01:29 AM

Not to sound negative [Since this is good news], but how can Nintendo get a patent on technology that already exists? :confused:

I've played a bit with displacement mapping before myself... Seems standard on pretty much any 3D App...

Josh396

Dec 13, 2005, 01:30 AM

281 polygons vs 5000 polygons = pwnd
While that may be true, I remember the NFL 2k series had an insane amount of polygons per player and their graphics weren't even that much better than anything else. I'm not saying that a higher polygon count isn't better because it is, I'm just saying I'm not sure if it's everything.

GFLPraxis

Dec 13, 2005, 01:32 AM

I'm too tired to post in detail tonight. I ripped this to shreds on another forum already. It's just some idiot that reads a patent, doesn't understand the tech talk, misunderstands it and thinks its something else, makes a forum post proclaiming its some secret Nintendo is keeping, and then rumor sites and blogs like that one pick it up.

TheMonarch

Dec 13, 2005, 01:34 AM

...I'm not saying that a higher polygon count isn't better because it is, I'm just saying I'm not sure if it's everything.

They're not ;)
...Rule of thumb "A good texture speaks a thousand polygons".

Translation: A good texture can save a crappy mesh, but a good mesh can't save those crappy textures.

greatdevourer

Dec 13, 2005, 01:35 AM

While that may be true, I remember the NFL 2k series had an insane amount of polygons per player and their graphics weren't even that much better than anything else. I'm not saying that a higher polygon count isn't better because it is, I'm just saying I'm not sure if it's everything. Sorry, looking back it would have made more sense had I said it rather than typed. I meant 281 with equal graphics as 5000 = Ninty pwning M$.

d_saum

Dec 13, 2005, 02:12 AM

takao

Dec 13, 2005, 02:44 AM

because i'm in a hurry:

_old_ tech -> nintendo patent new perhaps more efficent way to implent it -> not sure if it's getting used at all in Revolution -> still not as powerfull as xbox360/ps3

at least i would be rather surprised

edit: positivly surprised ;)
after all i'm pretty sure Nintendo will pull off quite a few improvements with the GPU.. especially i nterms of compressions or optimisations

greatdevourer

Dec 13, 2005, 10:17 AM

Mavimao

Dec 13, 2005, 10:53 AM

Who said it isn't as good as the 360? They just proved that it does better in a minute fraction of the power

Well, Nintendo said themselves the processing power will not be as powerful as the 360. In terms of sheer numbers, the Revolution will be pounced upon; however if this article is a look into what we should expect from Nintendo, then we can see that they are going the economical route. Less gigaflops, less RAM, but awesome implimentation of state of the art 3D technology.

I'm all for it!

buryyourbrideau

Dec 13, 2005, 11:05 AM

Everyone should just chill out until E3.

Then we will all see the real deal, no need for anyone to fanboy it up or whatnot.

There is going to be hardcore speculation on everything on PS3 and Revolution.

Most will be purely speculation.

Dagless

Dec 13, 2005, 12:09 PM

Mavimao

Dec 13, 2005, 12:13 PM

quick reply (tea's ready)... in SD mode they are probably identical. A developer said that in SD mode all the next gen consoles look the same. doesn't surprise me. anyone remember Nintendo's 'saturation point' speech?

Yeah, that is Nintendo's whole philosophy on their new Revolution console. However, what's being said is that the Revolution will not look as detailed on an HD monitor than a 360 or a PS3.

We will just have to see and wait.

srobert

Dec 13, 2005, 12:19 PM

no need for anyone to fanboy it up or whatnot.

I hate the word fanboy ^_^

By the way, nice XBox 360 avatar, XBox 360 Profile, XBox 360 sig, XBox 360 post history mr. pointing out fanboys. ;) Just kidding.

I myself went tri-consolexual and wouldn't go back.

Dagless

Dec 13, 2005, 12:27 PM

Yeah, that is Nintendo's whole philosophy on their new Revolution console. However, what's being said is that the Revolution will not look as detailed on an HD monitor than a 360 or a PS3.

We will just have to see and wait.

oh god no its impossible. the Rev max's out (as far as we know) at 480p. that alone will be very much welcomed for me. get myself the obligatory VGA cable and it can say hello to my 2005FPW monitor no probs. the other machines hit 1080p. or if you believe the Sony hyperbole; DUAL 1080p graphics at 60fps :rolleyes:

of course the other systems will look better in HD resolutions though.

or so we think... who knows what Nintendo are up too... we can all speculate on rumours and the mini amount of real info announced but until we actually know then speculation is all we have. I speculated the PSP would fail to sell one machine, but a market was invented full of people who don't mind playing games, but want to watch films on the go. nobody can say how the Rev will look, or what they really mean when they speak about amazing hidden features, who knows? perhaps them features alone will render no (at this time) HD-output feature as trivial.

greatdevourer

Dec 13, 2005, 12:31 PM

oh god no its impossible. the Rev max's out (as far as we know) at 480p. that alone will be very much welcomed for me. get myself the obligatory VGA cable and it can say hello to my 2005FPW monitor no probs. the other machines hit 1080p. or if you believe the Sony hyperbole; DUAL 1080p graphics at 60fps :rolleyes:

of course the other systems will look better in HD resolutions though.

or so we think... who knows what Nintendo are up too... Once again, they said it has monitor out, which implies that they're just waiting for a proper HDTV standard to happen. It will do 480p minimum, probably higher

Chaszmyr

Dec 13, 2005, 12:45 PM

katchow

Dec 13, 2005, 01:02 PM

What Nintendo is doing here is very smart. They know that Revolution will likely have the same small marketshare as Gamecube, but if they have much higher profit margins than Microsoft (which they will, as they also did with Gamecube) they can stay afloat.

if i were a third party publisher, that strategy wouldn't exactly woo me to cross platforms.

greatdevourer

Dec 13, 2005, 01:28 PM

What Nintendo is doing here is very smart. They know that Revolution will likely have the same small marketshare as Gamecube, but if they have much higher profit margins than Microsoft (which they will, as they also did with Gamecube) they can stay afloat. Far as I remember, that "small market share" is the exact same "small market share" as M$ :rolleyes:

jayscheuerle

Dec 13, 2005, 01:28 PM

They're not ;)
...Rule of thumb "A good texture speaks a thousand polygons".

Translation: A good texture can save a crappy mesh, but a good mesh can't save those crappy textures.

And neither can same a crappy game...

Not even in HD...

Dagless

Dec 13, 2005, 01:34 PM

And neither can same a crappy game...

Not even in HD...

exactly.

GFLPraxis

Dec 13, 2005, 02:43 PM

ARGH! I hate these stupid conspiracy theorists that make up junk and get people to believe it, then blogs and unofficial news sites repost it like its real, causing a stir over nothing.

This whole rumor originated from a stupid blog.

These patents will not automatically make the Revolution more powerful.

The XBox 360 and PS3 are already using displacement mapping.

This is where it originated from.

http://nintendo-revolution.blogspot.com/

Actually read the stuff! They have no understanding of the patents. They think the cube-mapping patent is "pre-rendered images in real-time". Anyone remember that patent? It's talking about a panoramic image with depth added in, a more advanced version of the Zelda 64 Marketplace and stuff like that.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=138726

Nintendo is not the kind of company that is going to magically discover a ten-times-more-efficient way of rendering images than the entire-freaking-industry.

Sorry, sites publishing speculation as fact is one of my pet peeves, I'm not directing my frustration towards anyone on this board. I'm sorry if I appear rude, I just really, really hate blogs that misinform people.

LethalWolfe

Dec 13, 2005, 03:23 PM

Once again, they said it has monitor out, which implies that they're just waiting for a proper HDTV standard to happen. It will do 480p minimum, probably higher

Proper HDTV standard? There are proper HDTV standards. Do you mean waiting until HDTVs have more consumer penetration?

Lethal

kuyu

Dec 13, 2005, 03:33 PM

Sounds cool, but I'm inclined to believe GFL that PS3 and 360 are using this tech already.

On a side note, how long until MS and Sony come out with a Rev clone controller? I'd say we might see a 360 version of this idea before the Rev launches stateside.

d_saum

Dec 14, 2005, 10:43 PM

ARGH! I hate these stupid conspiracy theorists that make up junk and get people to believe it, then blogs and unofficial news sites repost it like its real, causing a stir over nothing.

This whole rumor originated from a stupid blog.

These patents will not automatically make the Revolution more powerful.

The XBox 360 and PS3 are already using displacement mapping.

Well, its not made up junk. HERE (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=3&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=nintendo&OS=nintendo&RS=nintendo) is the actual patent. It talks about HOW nintendo can reduce the load on the processor in regard to displacement mapping. I really couldn't find anything stating that the 360 uses displacement mapping, but even if it does, the load on the processor is probably huge. Also, I believe there's something in there about an additional piece of hardware to assist that Im sure the 360 doesnt have. Anywho...the patent is real and I think Nintendo actually might know what they are doing. I dont think this is a "Conspiracy theory". ;)

Dagless

Dec 15, 2005, 06:06 AM

To be honest though you can't really predict exactly what the Rev will have searching for patents. there are many MANY unused patents, I think they must patent things as soon as they think of them. Hell if Nintendo are letting Sony and Microsoft copy them yet again.

seriously I had no idea how bad Sony were at copying. I saw an official NES controller a few days ago that instantly reminded me of the Playstation one. Its sad that people think Sony invented the handle-styled controller. what Nintendo have launched in their lifetime is bleedin incredible. Wireless controllers for the NES? online services in the late 80's? wireless NES system link? < just some things that you probably didn't think Nintendo invented.

Least we're hearing that Revolutions can communicate through local wireless to each other. back to the old days :D

takao

Dec 15, 2005, 06:39 AM

GFLPraxis

Dec 15, 2005, 01:35 PM

This site rocks:
http://www.axess.com/twilight/console/

It shows the evolution of console controllers quite well. The XBox controller is derived directly from the Dreamcast controller. Then the second XBox controller borrow some design ideas from the PS2. The XBox 360 controller combines the second XBox controller with the Wavebird.

The PS2 controller, on the other hand, is copied directly off the SNES pad. Look at the original PS2 controller, with no analog sticks.
http://www.axess.com/twilight/console/detail/snes.jpg http://www.axess.com/twilight/console/detail/psx.jpg

All they added was L2 and R2 and handles and they were set.

The Nintendo came out with the N64 that had an analog stick and Sony released an updated model with two of them.

Then Nintendo came released the rumble pack and Sony released a third controller that had...two of them. Plus the first original thing they ever thought of, namely, making it so you can click down the joystick.

If you look at the chart, there have been five controllers so revolutionary that EVERYTHING copied from them and built in their design.

The first is the Atari 2600, the first home console with a joystick.

The second is the NES, the first "hold with two hands and control with both thumbs" controller. And the first home console with a D-pad (not counting the Game And Watch handheld). Every controller borrowed from this design.

The third is the SNES, the first with four face buttons, and more importantly the first with shoulder buttons. Every controller borrowed from this design.

The fourth is the N64, with the analog stick and rumble pack that changed everything.

And the fifth and last is the Wavebird, with wireless.

Nintendo is always in the middle of the chart because everyone seems to copy off them. The Revolution contains everything they ever innovated- it has the analog stick, the shoulder buttons, the rumble, and the "hold in two hands and control with both thumbs" design- only the two hands are seperate. They also took the trigger from the N64. And they created a new layout and a new way to control- motion and tilt sensing, and pointing functionality. How long before it is copied, I wonder?

jdechko

Dec 15, 2005, 02:47 PM

GFLPraxis, that controller site was really cool. It pretty much even supports my (other) definition of "What constitutes next generation?" referring to the impact and evolution of game controllers. Seeing this just confirms how important Nintendo is to the industry. When the fanboys start smack-talking Nintendo, I want to smack them and tell them to respect their elders. ;)

Dagless

Dec 15, 2005, 05:51 PM

"What constitutes next generation?"

What did Nintendo do last generation? ;)

Abulia

Dec 16, 2005, 10:58 AM

Dagless

Dec 16, 2005, 12:37 PM

...Morgan: "Pro's of the GameCube version: the graphics are slightly better than the PS2 version."
Morgan: "Cons of the GameCube version: It was on the GameCube."...

hah! you can actually feel his jealousy for GC hardware!

d_saum

Dec 18, 2005, 09:24 PM

As an aside, XPlay did a review of RE4 for the PS2 last night. It was really funny. :) (note: heavily paraphrased)

Adam: "Our 5 out of 5 game of 2004..."
Morgan: "...that apparently only we played."

Morgan: "Pro's of the GameCube version: the graphics are slightly better than the PS2 version."
Morgan: "Cons of the GameCube version: It was on the GameCube."
Adam: "Oooh, I can feel the waves of hate washing over me now from the Nintendo fanboys."

Does XPlay have some great dislike of Nintendo?

In other news, I'd kill for an Xbox version (either one) of RE4!

Yeah, I have all 3 platforms and have played RE4 on the cube and LOVED it! I havent purchased it yet, but will at some point. Id be really curious to see how good it would look on an xbox. I have to say, all the RE games on the cube look freakin amazing. I wish there was more support for the cube and better online support. Honestly, if Nintendo had both of those things and advertised the crap out of it, I'd be willing to bet they would have tromped the xbox here in the us.

Seriously, how many games had online capability for the cube? 3? Oh well...lol didnt mean to get so far off topic.

Im still thinking the REV will surprise everyone with graphics ... BUT... Here's the catch... Developers are going to be able to use most of the rev's power right out of the gate because its so easy to develop for. With that being said, I think there isnt going to be too much improvement over the life if the cube (some but not too much). Now, with the PS3 and the 360, initially the games will only be using a fraction of the processing power so over time, the games are going to look exponentialy better as time goes by and developers learn how to utilize all the cores and spe's. I guess we'll just have to wait and see, but Im willing to bet initially, the rev will look better on a standard def tv than the 360.

Dagless

Dec 19, 2005, 05:54 AM

Yea in theory, in 2006, the Rev will have the best graphics. It will take years before the 360 hardware is fully tapped and possibly longer with the PS3 because its so difficult to program for. While the other companies overtake in 2007-2008 Nintendo will come out with a game to rival them all, like the Cube with Twilight Princess. Who knew a 5 year old machine with a G3 could produce something as stunningly beautiful as that game? They know their hardware very well.

Apparently the current Revolution dev kits are upgraded Cube ones. They aren't the final kits but they won't be too much different than the current ones.

You know its funny, some developer said that the Revolution is basically a "souped up Xbox'... isn't that what the 360 is :rolleyes:

louis_sx

Dec 20, 2005, 09:31 AM

seriously I had no idea how bad Sony were at copying. I saw an official NES controller a few days ago that instantly reminded me of the Playstation one. Its sad that people think Sony invented the handle-styled controller.

NES Max, right? With that weird circular thing in place of the + pad.

FWIW, good ergonomics is a valid excuse to copy stuff.

MS, on the other hand, took good ergonomics and threw them out the Window while trying to copy someone. Anybody have a Saturn? Do you remember the "3D controller" (with the analog stick) that came with NiGHTS into Dreams and works with some other games (Shining Force III for example)? Well, take a Dreamcast controller and add a couple more buttons and take off the VMU ports and you have the idea. Then take the Xbox's origianl controller and cut the volume of the thing in half (making it thinner, especially). Look familiar?

Saturn 3D Controller -> Dreamcast controller -> Bastardization -> Xbox

It's not just Sony doing a poor job of copying Nintendo, Microsoft is following in their footsteps.

raggedjimmi, I thought the Cube had Altivec...am I wrong, and it really is a G3 derivative?

greatdevourer

Dec 20, 2005, 10:48 AM

raggedjimmi, I thought the Cube had Altivec...am I wrong, and it really is a G3 derivative? Yep, it's a modified 750FX, codenamed "Gekko"

XNine

Dec 20, 2005, 11:50 AM

Givent he fact that displacement mapping has been used for quite some time (see: Photoshop Tutorials) and has been used in video games for quite some time, this is hardly innovative.

Sorry, it's just not. I don't find Nintendo to be all that great. They've had two really bad consoles in a row (64, GC, and yes, there were games I LOVED on both, but probably under 5-10 each. See: Sega).

The revolution? Eh, we'll have to see. But I really think they should just stop being a hardware company and start being a software company (see: Sega, again).

Their portables are great, however.

At any rate, this is nothing new, and the techniques are used industry wide.

greatdevourer

Dec 20, 2005, 12:27 PM

They've had two really bad consoles in a row How are they "really bad consoles"?

MacRumorUser

Dec 20, 2005, 12:44 PM

How are they "really bad consoles"?

Maybe they broke into the WhiteHouse and shat on the presidents desk ;)

Somthings never change do they, now theres a gormless, moronic ***** sitting at that desk :p

jdechko

Dec 20, 2005, 12:46 PM

They've had two really bad consoles in a row

As far as market share: yes
As far as hard-core gaming machines: sure

That's as far as their being "bad consoles" goes.

Nintendo has consistently made a profit on their systems, so it's not like they're losing any money on the so-called "bad consoles".

The games are also actually fun to play. I'm not saying that XBox and PS2 don't have good games. There are a lot of people that say Halo and GTA:?? are fun. But a lot of the games are repackaged games (Halo is a Futuristic themed FPS, unarguably, just as Half-Life, Counter-Strike etc are). GTA has been repackaged several times and resold at $50 a pop. Now those are only 2 examples, but they are the biggest games (??) on their respective consoles. Contrasted to Nintendo who, I and many others here believe, innovate continually (while using the same characters).

In any case, Nintendo will be around making consoles and games for a very long time, maybe another 20-25 years even. They do too much for the entire video game industry to go away.

Nintendo is a lot like Apple... if Nintendo goes away, who are the others going to take their cues from?

greatdevourer

Dec 20, 2005, 12:49 PM

As far as market share: yes If you take Japan into account, then the GC is on par with the XBox. However, in the west, yes, they are bottom of the league table

GFLPraxis

Dec 20, 2005, 02:56 PM

Worldwide, Microsoft has a 16% marketshare and Nintendo has a 14% marketshare.

In Japan, Nintendo routinely outsells the XBox by over 50 times.

However, Microsoft's profits are negative, while Nintendo's are positive.

Counting consoles and handhelds for both, Nintendo makes more profits than Sony's game division.

GFLPraxis

Dec 20, 2005, 02:58 PM

XNine

Dec 20, 2005, 03:01 PM

How are the two last consoles horrible? Mostly because of the developers behind them. Anyone remember Superman 64? Earthworm Jim 3D? Lack of really incredible games on the 64, and the controllers were just sluggish. Not to mention every time they announced add-ons to the system, they never appeared (this is a big step into where the Sony Playstation came from).

The GC had a proprietary disc standard, and I'm not tlaking just format wise, but size as well. If you take a look at the PS 2, it was many people's actual first DVD player. It was amazing.

I'm not here to flame or be a troll. These are just my opinions based on some factual events.

All I'm really saying is that the hype for Nintendo over technology that's been in use for many years all over several industries is nothing revolutionary (the displacement map thing.)

eva01

Dec 20, 2005, 03:04 PM

I know i have never owned a system not made by Sega or Nintendo, and more than likely never will. Sony's hardware is absolutely horrendous, and there are ZERO games only for Xbox that i want to play all the time.

However Nintendo has multiple games that i want to play all the time.

and for those that the PS2 was their first DVD player, boy do i feel for them.

GFLPraxis

Dec 20, 2005, 03:15 PM

How are the two last consoles horrible? Mostly because of the developers behind them. Anyone remember Superman 64? Earthworm Jim 3D? Lack of really incredible games on the 64, and the controllers were just sluggish.

I honestly remember the N64 well. Star Wars: Rogue Squadron, Super Smash Bros, Mario Kart 64, Mario 64, Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Zelda: Majora's Mask, etc...some of the best games of all time. I still play Super Smash Bros 64 to this day when friends come over.

Not to mention every time they announced add-ons to the system, they never appeared (this is a big step into where the Sony Playstation came from).

Generally, they were released in Japan, the Japanese didn't buy them so they didn't release them over here.

The N64 DD for example. It added a hard drive, keyboard and mouse to the N64, and online adapter. It had an online network with downloadable games, instant messaging, an online magazine, online play, character creation and a 3d modelling and paint app for texturing and creating your character, map creators, etc, etc. It was insane. It was also too early. The Japanese didn't buy it, so Nintendo never released it over here.

Nintendo was always ahead. Too far ahead. The SNES had an online network in Japan.

The GC had a proprietary disc standard, and I'm not tlaking just format wise, but size as well. If you take a look at the PS 2, it was many people's actual first DVD player. It was amazing.

I'm not here to flame or be a troll. These are just my opinions based on some factual events.

All I'm really saying is that the hype for Nintendo over technology that's been in use for many years all over several industries is nothing revolutionary (the displacement map thing.)

All I'm really saying is that the hype for Nintendo over technology that's been in use for many years all over several industries is nothing revolutionary (the displacement map thing.)

Yeah. The displacement map thing is ignorant hype (not directed at anyone on the board, but on the blogs). It's not supposed to be Revolutionary. It's blogs trying to find things where nothing exists. The same thing happened with the cube-mapping patent (which was nothing but a patent for a 3d panorama with a fixed camera in the center with traditional cube mapping and displacement mapping added- think the Zelda 64 Marketplace with buildings popping out).

What's Revolutionary is the controller.

greatdevourer

Dec 20, 2005, 03:30 PM

All I'm really saying is that the hype for Nintendo over technology that's been in use for many years all over several industries is nothing revolutionary (the displacement map thing.) The difference is that Nintendo look to use it as something that may be built into the console (which would tie into the "we're making it easier for devs" thing)

Nintendo makes more profits than Sony's game division. I think the mere comment "Nintendo makes profits" sums up their pwnage of the other 2

GFLPraxis

Dec 20, 2005, 03:36 PM

I think the mere comment "Nintendo makes profits" sums up their pwnage of the other 2

lol, well, Sony actually did make profits. They had the highest revenue of all the game companies, with the PS2 selling twice as many units as the GameCube and XBox combined, yet their profits were less than Nintendo's. But at least they did make a profit.

EDIT: Why am I telling you all this when I can post the numbers? Check the chart.

http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=11760&page=5

Sony has the highest revenue. Nintendo is the only one to consistently make a profit every quarter. Nintendo beats Sony's profits every quarter and Sony gets negative a few times.

Dagless

Dec 20, 2005, 04:31 PM

I'd put money on the extra Rev features to be NOTHING to do with specs/graphics/that sort of thing. It will not be any kind of graphical rendering technique. why on earth would Nintendo do that? that's more a Sony thing to do. no. Sure they may have some new rendering technique but it will not be announced as a main feature. It just wont. Sony are the ones with lack of imagination and creativity; they would announce such lack-luster features.

Gotta agree, Nintendo always were too far ahead. in the old days at least. the NES could go online, could use wireless controllers, had a little robot. in the 80's? thats pretty effin marvellous. skipping all the Snes and N64 stuff... look at the Gamecube. first first-party/official wireless controller. Smashing to see Sony and Microsoft going the same route. sure its a step forward... but who made it first?

I dunno about what other people think here. But if Nintendo just magically dropped out the system then gaming would become a stagnant mess of nothing more than speed-increased machines.

Also about the Cubes proprietary discs... if Blu-Ray does NOT take off, then guess which has the proprietary disc console :rolleyes:

XNine

Dec 20, 2005, 04:49 PM

Also about the Cubes proprietary discs... if Blu-Ray does NOT take off, then guess which has the proprietary disc console :rolleyes:

********. Blu-ray players will still be able to play normal DVD's and CD's. GC doesn't even have that option. And now this whole thing is turning into a thread-crap fest.

Excellent. :rolleyes:

Sun Baked

Dec 20, 2005, 04:56 PM

Maybe they broke into the WhiteHouse and shat on the presidents desk ;)

Somthings never change do they, now theres a gormless, moronic ***** sitting at that desk :pI still think he is a poop flinging monkey, spraying the walls with such a think layer of crap that they are going to have the White House turned into an East Coast brothel to improve its image.

eva01

Dec 20, 2005, 05:11 PM

********. Blu-ray players will still be able to play normal DVD's and CD's. GC doesn't even have that option. And now this whole thing is turning into a thread-crap fest.

Excellent. :rolleyes:

hmm, you know i would never ever use a game system to watch movies with as well.

I have two DVD players in my room, as well as my powermac and my powerbook.

I would never use a Nintendo as a DVD player

d_saum

Dec 21, 2005, 12:55 AM

I still think he is a poop flinging monkey, spraying the walls with such a think layer of crap that they are going to have the White House turned into an East Coast brothel to improve its image.

Ok, first of all, this is not a political forum. And wow, thats really impressive that a poop flinging monkey can have the lowest unemployment rates, highest home ownership rates, the strongest economy we've seen in a LONG time, AND start the spread of democracy in the middle east and free 50 million people all while preventing any more terrorist attacks here. Yep.. thats some poop flinging monkey we have here. Idiots....

Anyway, back to what this forum is actually about.. like I said before, displacement mapping isn't whats new... Its the way nintendo is utilizing a specific piece of hardware to lessen the load on the proccessor thats new. Also, I cant seem to find anything saying that M$ or sony is using displacement mapping. (Im not saying they definitely are not using it, I just cant find it). Even if they are using it, its not going to as efficient as the rev.

GFLPraxis

Dec 21, 2005, 01:57 AM

Ok, first of all, this is not a political forum. And wow, thats really impressive that a poop flinging monkey can have the lowest unemployment rates, highest home ownership rates, the strongest economy we've seen in a LONG time, AND start the spread of democracy in the middle east and free 50 million people all while preventing any more terrorist attacks here. Yep.. thats some poop flinging monkey we have here. Idiots....

Anyway, back to what this forum is actually about.. like I said before, displacement mapping isn't whats new... Its the way nintendo is utilizing a specific piece of hardware to lessen the load on the proccessor thats new. Also, I cant seem to find anything saying that M$ or sony is using displacement mapping. (Im not saying they definitely are not using it, I just cant find it). Even if they are using it, its not going to as efficient as the rev.

Displacement mapping is STANDARD in both OpenGL and DirectX. It's an existing and commonly used technology.

Dagless

Dec 21, 2005, 05:56 AM

hmm, you know i would never ever use a game system to watch movies with as well.

I have two DVD players in my room, as well as my powermac and my powerbook.

I would never use a Nintendo as a DVD player

ditto. in the old days it was good for a system to have a DVD player but when they dropped below £60 thats it. no need for a system to be a DVD player, now its all DivX players (why I have an Xbox :D ). Having a DVD player these days is like having a telephone plugged into a toaster. you're not sure how it got in there and you won't use it because you have a much better solid-gold plated phone floating around the house somewhere.
Adding Blu-Ray to the PS3 will be a good step, if the format takes off. but i'm guessing it will be just like the PS2's 'new format player' in that its severely problematic and horrendously slow to use.

but hey. if the DVD player thingy in the Revolution is adding anything to its cost then I'd rather buy a non-DVD playing version. especially not when I'll be watching films on my 2005FPW through DVI soon :D (unless the Rev can output to DVI, like what Nintendo are saying with its monitor-output thingy).

eva01

Dec 21, 2005, 06:15 AM

ditto. in the old days it was good for a system to have a DVD player but when they dropped below £60 thats it. no need for a system to be a DVD player, now its all DivX players (why I have an Xbox :D ). Having a DVD player these days is like having a telephone plugged into a toaster. you're not sure how it got in there and you won't use it because you have a much better solid-gold plated phone floating around the house somewhere.
Adding Blu-Ray to the PS3 will be a good step, if the format takes off. but i'm guessing it will be just like the PS2's 'new format player' in that its severely problematic and horrendously slow to use.

but hey. if the DVD player thingy in the Revolution is adding anything to its cost then I'd rather buy a non-DVD playing version. especially not when I'll be watching films on my 2005FPW through DVI soon :D (unless the Rev can output to DVI, like what Nintendo are saying with its monitor-output thingy).

even if blu-ray became the standard and i miraculously came upon a PS3, i would purposefully go out of my way to buy an actual blu-ray player and would never use the PS3 for it.

Poff

Dec 21, 2005, 06:41 AM

MacRumorUser

Dec 21, 2005, 10:19 AM

I would never use a Nintendo as a DVD player

Come on now! I know you want my Panasonic Q :)

too much propaganda.. *sigh* too much propaganda... :( :confused:

I know. All you can do is take a deep *sigh* and say 'bless em' ;)

BlizzardBomb

Dec 21, 2005, 11:32 AM

How are the two last consoles horrible? Mostly because of the developers behind them. Anyone remember Superman 64? Earthworm Jim 3D? Lack of really incredible games on the 64, and the controllers were just sluggish. Not to mention every time they announced add-ons to the system, they never appeared (this is a big step into where the Sony Playstation came from).

As it's been said already I can easily name some classics from the N64.

I honestly remember the N64 well. Star Wars: Rogue Squadron, Super Smash Bros, Mario Kart 64, Mario 64, Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Zelda: Majora's Mask, etc...some of the best games of all time. I still play Super Smash Bros 64 to this day when friends come over.

Add to that Perfect Dark. Oh and GoldenEye 007 and the intense 4-player battles you could have on it.

The GC had a proprietary disc standard, and I'm not tlaking just format wise, but size as well. If you take a look at the PS 2, it was many people's actual first DVD player. It was amazing.

The GC's disc were amazing. It allowed incredible load times on first-party games. Super Smash Bros Melee had hardly any, Mario Kart: Double Dash had none, and Wind Waker let you move anywhere in the massive world or sail in the seas WITHOUT load times. Hey, they even ported Ocarina of Time and Majora's mask (cartridge based games) and the only load screen is a 10 second one at the start. Instead of putting on a feature no-one would use (and let's face it, 90% of us had a DVD player when the GC was launched) they managed to launch the console at an amazing price.

Dagless

Dec 21, 2005, 04:46 PM

Yea the N64 was a tremendous machine. At the time it had my favourite games... Ocarina of Time is just the most fantastic game I've ever played. I'd count a game that is tied for best game ever (age old OoT vs. FF7) as "really incredible". not to mention the first ever decent, arguably best (though I haven't personally played them all so I cannot judge), console FPS game ever. along with the first ever real 3D world in a console game.
nah. did it heck as have really incredible games.

aye?

;)

Dagless

Dec 21, 2005, 05:00 PM

The GC's disc were amazing. It allowed incredible load times on first-party games. Super Smash Bros Melee had hardly any, Mario Kart: Double Dash had none, and Wind Waker let you move anywhere in the massive world or sail in the seas WITHOUT load times. Hey, they even ported Ocarina of Time and Majora's mask (cartridge based games) and the only load screen is a 10 second one at the start. Instead of putting on a feature no-one would use (and let's face it, 90% of us had a DVD player when the GC was launched) they managed to launch the console at an amazing price.

I think (im no tech-head) that the Cubes lack of loading screens was because of the Ram. didnt they use T1 Ram or something like that. insanely fast RAM. then again I don't know. but I do know Cube games have little loading. I only realised it a few months ago too. whilst playing Metroid Prime 2 of all games, I could traverse this insanely huge world without a pause or a loading bar.
Then I played Windwaker and was bowled over by its lack of loading times too. heres a game so massive too. I'm still playing through it!

I am never surprised by how Nintendo as a company and game designers fuse with their hardware. it took the Xbox a very long time before the real beautiful games started cropping up. we're still waiting on the PS2 to show us beautiful ;) I suppose it deserves slack for being the oldest of the 3, but should have slack removed because of Sony's absolutely crap marketing hyperbole. Toy Story graphics anyone? Emotion Engine?

If the discs meant that Nintendo could have less piracy, super fast load times and be very convenient for travelling then it is certainly a good thing.

Going off on a tangent though... When the Rev comes out Nintendo will have its biggest increase in medium space ever. Didn't N64 games get as large as 256mb? the Cube went up to 1.4gb. this time they're going from 1.4gb to 9gb.

TheMonarch

Dec 21, 2005, 05:10 PM

I think (im no tech-head) that the Cubes lack of loading screens was because of the Ram. didnt they use T1 Ram or something like that. insanely fast RAM...

Yup. The GC's disks had nothing to do with loading times. If anything, smaller disks mean slower load times [Remember, reading a disk from the outside-in is faster than from the inside out]. The reason it had virtually no loading times is because the programmers slaved their asses off optimizing everything in the game, and fully using the GC hardware.

Going off on a tangent though... When the Rev comes out Nintendo will have its biggest increase in medium space ever. Didn't N64 games get as large as 256mb? the Cube went up to 1.4gb. this time they're going from 1.4gb to 9gb.

Heh. The N64 had a maximum of 64MB! [512Mbits] :eek:

Super Mario 64 was only 8MB!
Conker's BFD & Resident Evil were the only games to use all 64MB IIRC

harveypooka

Dec 21, 2005, 05:26 PM

Well done for posting yesterday's news. However, you have merely posted a crappy article. Not the real deal with demos.

Well, the awful and hideous error aside, a good find D Saum!!! Very interesting indeed. I really hope that the REV is a step in a different direction. Hmmm...owning a Rev, a PS3, a huge LCD, a nokia 770 and a quad macintel. Lovely.

d_saum

Dec 22, 2005, 12:16 AM

Well, the awful and hideous error aside, a good find D Saum!!! Very interesting indeed. I really hope that the REV is a step in a different direction. Hmmm...owning a Rev, a PS3, a huge LCD, a nokia 770 and a quad macintel. Lovely.

Haha.. awful hideous error... I love it. Thanks for the support. Also, sounds like you're going to have a nice setup, although Im not familiar with the nokia 770.

7on

Dec 22, 2005, 12:32 AM

Going off on a tangent though... When the Rev comes out Nintendo will have its biggest increase in medium space ever. Didn't N64 games get as large as 256mb? the Cube went up to 1.4gb. this time they're going from 1.4gb to 9gb.

Actually I heard a rumor about them developing a 12GB proprietary disk format for their games. Which will also prevent piracy probably as much as the nonstandard GC disk. And I bet it will be read backwards like the GC. ;P Yep, GC disks are read backwards.

Also less loading because programmers had to fit their code within 1.5GB.
On the PS2 and Xbox, the coders had 9GB for the exact same game.

Sol

Dec 22, 2005, 07:24 AM

Also less loading because programmers had to fit their code within 1.5GB.
On the PS2 and Xbox, the coders had 9GB for the exact same game.

It is amazing that multi-format releases looked better on GC than PS2, even with the smaller capacity media.

I hope the Revolution will use a proprietary format, like the GC did. Third parties may have supported the GC as long as they did because on that format they were safe from piracy. Does anyone think GameCube would still be around if copied games were as common as they are on XBox and PS2?

The Revolution might not support 720p and 1080i television standards but on standard definition widescreen its games will look as good, if not better than the competition. Nintendo always has an innovative graphics trick to give it an edge. For example, the SNES had Mode 7, the n64 had anti-aliased textures, and the GameCube had the ability to render the same object hundreds of times without slowing down.

My guess is that the most revolutionary aspect of the next Nintendo console will be the way it handles physics. I think this because the new controller will add a lot of precise tilting and rotating in the way we interact with games. Games like flight simulators will benefit the most from such controls and they will need a fast physics engine to keep up with the player. I am sorry if I have not articulated this idea very well but it just seems like next-gen physics and the new controller could offer gamers something special.

In graphics, physics could be used to make a scene with less polygons more dramatic than the same scene on PS3. Imagine a hill with hundreds of boulders rolling down, each one of them photorealistic in detail and lighting. Now imagine the same scene with slightly less detail on each boulder but thousands more of them rolling down the hill. I know which would impress me the most.

CaptainHaddock

Dec 22, 2005, 08:52 AM

Nintendo isn't really interested in hyping the stats of their hardware. They want to promote gameplay, which is why the only preview of Revolution they've given is of the remarkable controller and how it could be used.

Spec-wise, it'll probably be roughly equal to the 360 in raw computing power, and somewhat below the PS3 and its cell processor.

What I think is interesting, though, is that the Revolution's rumored hardware specs include something new to consoles: a separate physics processor. This might do for game physics what the 3D graphics processor did for graphics.

At any rate, I think Nintendo is the Apple Computer of the game console world. They do things in a new manner and innovate at every turn; they're not too interested in being like everyone else. They have some failures, and also some incredible successes.

Yvan256

Dec 22, 2005, 09:01 AM

What Nintendo is doing here is very smart. They know that Revolution will likely have the same small marketshare as Gamecube, but if they have much higher profit margins than Microsoft (which they will, as they also did with Gamecube) they can stay afloat.

Because "almost as big a marketshare as Xbox" is a small marketshare?

Don't equal the USA to the World, please. A few months ago, the GameCube was still selling more than the Xbox.

jdechko

Dec 22, 2005, 09:09 AM

Metroid Prime 2 of all games, I could traverse this insanely huge world without a pause or a loading bar.

It did, you just never noticed it. Same thing with MP1. What do you think the elevator scenes were for? (Hint, it was a pretty cut scene while the next level most likely loaded). Same thing with the doors. Ever notice the slight pause before some doors would open? Those two events are most likely the level being loaded into memory. If I recall correctly, you could hear the disk doing a lot of work during those times, but relatively silent otherwise. I'm not trying to debate you. I definitely don't notice them when playing (well, I notice them, but don't really consider them to be loading screens). It's just that Nintendo hates loading screens and tries to shelter the player from them as much as possible. (And they do a phenomenal job in MP/MP2)

Then I played Windwaker and was bowled over by its lack of loading times too. heres a game so massive too. I'm still playing through it!

I have no idea how they've accomplished that, but there probably aren't a ton of textures used on the seas, and there may be a slight delay before entering a town/dungeon. I don't really recall.

Yvan256

Dec 22, 2005, 09:11 AM

Apparently the current Revolution dev kits are upgraded Cube ones. They aren't the final kits but they won't be too much different than the current ones.

You know its funny, some developer said that the Revolution is basically a "souped up Xbox'... isn't that what the 360 is :rolleyes:

Well, if the Revolution can have the resolution of the Xbox (with anti-aliasing), I'd be happy enough. I don't plan on buying an HD TV any time soon. They're too expensive and I already got an "HD-Ready" 36" CRT TV.

Yvan256

Dec 22, 2005, 09:30 AM

Yup. The GC's disks had nothing to do with loading times. If anything, smaller disks mean slower load times [Remember, reading a disk from the outside-in is faster than from the inside out]. The reason it had virtually no loading times is because the programmers slaved their asses off optimizing everything in the game, and fully using the GC hardware.

I heard something about the GC discs being able to be spin much faster than a regular CD/DVD because of it's size, hence faster loading times (ex: 150x instead of 50x).

jdechko

Dec 22, 2005, 09:43 AM

I heard something about the GC discs being able to be spin much faster than a regular CD/DVD because of it's size, hence faster loading times (ex: 150x instead of 50x).

That might be possible. On the smaller disks, you wouldnt have to worry about them shattering at that speed, as the radius is half the size, thus a much slower velocity at the edges. (and I don't remember the formulae to calculate how much slower I failed physics once and got a "D" the second time... then I switched to business.)

takao

Dec 22, 2005, 10:05 AM

i doubt the gamecube driving is spinning at a higher speed... or any other console for the matter

it would be simply too noisy

and yeah: a game cd once exploded in my pc cd drive... it was Need for speed 3 or 4 ... and i was sitting there screaming "NOOOOOOO" while opening the drive and the bits falling into my hands ;)

personally i'm still going to like the revolution even when the graphics aren't that good compared to the other two... they will be still be quite a step up compared to the xbox 1 graphics...
after all it has been quite some time since the "most powerfull thing" made most money or was most succesfull

(just look at the japanese sales which will get released tommorow again...)

MacRumorUser

Dec 22, 2005, 10:20 AM

No there not spinning any faster, just the way the information is laid onto the disc. Its like this

An Xbox or Ps2 DVD are like a very fragmented drive. Pieces of stuff here there and everywhere that it takes a few trips for the laser to find and read that data.

The cube's smaller disc's are like a defragmented drive, information in more order and the laser spends less time seeking out that data, hence the shorter load times.

As bugs would say 'That all folks!' :)

Makes me laugh though how we all want no load times, and yet Ninty were crucified for sticking with carts holding onto their principle that loads times would be a step backwards.

Dagless

Dec 22, 2005, 10:23 AM

personally i'm still going to like the revolution even when the graphics aren't that good compared to the other two... they will be still be quite a step up compared to the xbox 1 graphics...
after all it has been quite some time since the "most powerfull thing" made most money or was most succesfull

(just look at the japanese sales which will get released tommorow again...)
exuctly. the PS2 had more sales whilst its power is equivalent to my wristwatch. DS and PSP? ;) i mean i like a bit of machine power, but really i dont care about specs. i havent since the amiga days.

Anarcho-Commie

Dec 24, 2005, 07:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poff
too much propaganda.. *sigh* too much propaganda...

I know. All you can do is take a deep *sigh* and say 'bless em' ;)[/QUOTE]

this is the mentality i have to put up with living in the US. :( ugh. can i come live with you guys?

d_saum

Dec 24, 2005, 01:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poff
too much propaganda.. *sigh* too much propaganda...

I know. All you can do is take a deep *sigh* and say 'bless em' ;)

this is the mentality i have to put up with living in the US. :( ugh. can i come live with you guys?

YES, Please leave this country if you dont like it! Thats the beauty, you can go anyime you want. If you want to debate politics, I suggest you start a new thread in another forum, otherwise, lets get back to graphics shall we?

GFLPraxis

Dec 24, 2005, 02:29 PM

It did, you just never noticed it. Same thing with MP1. What do you think the elevator scenes were for? (Hint, it was a pretty cut scene while the next level most likely loaded). Same thing with the doors. Ever notice the slight pause before some doors would open? Those two events are most likely the level being loaded into memory. If I recall correctly, you could hear the disk doing a lot of work during those times, but relatively silent otherwise. I'm not trying to debate you. I definitely don't notice them when playing (well, I notice them, but don't really consider them to be loading screens). It's just that Nintendo hates loading screens and tries to shelter the player from them as much as possible. (And they do a phenomenal job in MP/MP2)

Yes but those elevators are still pretty rare.

The way it actually works is this (IIRC):
When you walk in a room, the game loads all the adjacent rooms. When you walk into one of those adjacent rooms, then it dumps the others and loads all the rooms adjacent to that one. By the time you traverse the room it has loaded whichever door you are going to go in to.

Have you ever noticed how, when you've cleared a room before, if you run into the room really fast and IMMEDIATELY try to walk through another door, the door sometimes doesn't open right away? Listen carefully and you'll hear the disk spinning. It's a BRILLIANT trick Retro and Nintendo thought of to keep loading times transparent.

You'll also notice that if you move two rooms away, when you come back all the enemies will have respawned, but if you only go one room away they will still be there when you go back.

I have no idea how they've accomplished that, but there probably aren't a ton of textures used on the seas, and there may be a slight delay before entering a town/dungeon. I don't really recall.

Well, you actually can see other islands and buildings from across the map. The tower of the gods, in the center of the ocean, can be seen from ANYWHERE. Although because of the distance you only see a sillouette, as you approach it'll become clearer and clearer, no delays.

G5Unit

Dec 24, 2005, 02:44 PM

Yup. The GC's disks had nothing to do with loading times. If anything, smaller disks mean slower load times [Remember, reading a disk from the outside-in is faster than from the inside out]. The reason it had virtually no loading times is because the programmers slaved their asses off optimizing everything in the game, and fully using the GC hardware.

Heh. The N64 had a maximum of 64MB! [512Mbits] :eek:

Super Mario 64 was only 8MB!
Conker's BFD & Resident Evil were the only games to use all 64MB IIRC

Pokemon Stadium(1 or 2) was 512mb. Most games were over 64 mb. Dr. Mario was 32mb.