Firewire 2 @ MWSF?

[MacRumors]

ITWorld reports (http://www.itworld.com/Net/2629/030106firewire/) that a slip up may reveal Firewire 2 is coming tomorrow:

Several hours after announcing that it is introducing desktop hard drives that connect to Apple Computer Inc. computers using the new high-speed 800M bps (bits per second) FireWire standard, SmartDisk Corp. asked that the news be "killed due to premature release."

The aborted news suggests that Steve Jobs, chief executive officer of Apple, may announce FireWire2, or FireWire 800, in his keynote speech at MacWorld Expo Tuesday


The question becomes - which hardware will sport the new interface?

[3rdpath]

yea baby, bring it on!:)

[mcrain]

Other than the fact that I have a brand new 20 gig iPod, I wouldn't mind a new video iPod. Transferring huge video files might be a use for a FW2 of FW800. If so, that would necessitate very fast DVD compression (new software).

Then again, FW2 may just be a play to hammer USB2.0.

[meta-ghost]

iScrewedUp?

[GeeYouEye]

One can only hope... not that I'll complain if it does happen.

[rainman::|:|]

Very good, now what about USB2.0? Is there even a future there, or is Apple going to leave USB 1 for low-speed peripherals only? I don't really see the point in USB 2 since FW 2 is so much better...

pnw

[daveg5]

its about a year overdue this might be why no new machines will be announced if true. they may not have enough ports to go around, although i think a newer slot loading imac will make a debut

[Kid Red]

This was mentioned earlier at AI I think. I say Steve will be throwing pocket firewire drives athe SmartDisk reps tomorrow behind the stage.

This is winding up to be a whirlwind of a show. Apple sells smartdisk drives at their stores, wonder if Stevie will pull them like he did to ATI.

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
Very good, now what about USB2.0? Is there even a future there, or is Apple going to leave USB 1 for low-speed peripherals only? I don't really see the point in USB 2 since FW 2 is so much better...

pnw

USB2 has a future with PCs and with USB only type products. But until their are plentiful, I don't see it on the mac.

[job]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
don't really see the point in USB 2 since FW 2 is so much better...

but the problem is that the average consumer does not realize this.

you might have your techies and mac users who realize the performance gains, but will Joe PC really care or want to use the new tech?

[Tom800]

Fuel to the ViPod fire...

[Tom800]

Are nine of us posting simultaneously? I swear that said no comments and I wrote quick!

[Tom800]

Must be a problem at this end, what the hell, sorry for the multiple off topic posts.

And hey, 11th Post!

[lmalave]

Check out this moron (an analyst at IDC):

"Kay is unimpressed with the promise of Firewire2. "I don't know what we need it for. FireWire is really fast already, and data is only as fast as your slowest link -- your PC or your modem or cable line."

This guy gets paid big bucks to be a tech expert?!!? So my Firewire2 connection will be slow trasferring multi-GB video files because the same computer also has a 56K modem? 'Cause, hey, a computer is only as fast as its slowest connection, right?

Such a freakin' moron :rolleyes:

[lmalave]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
Very good, now what about USB2.0? Is there even a future there, or is Apple going to leave USB 1 for low-speed peripherals only? I don't really see the point in USB 2 since FW 2 is so much better...

pnw

Well Firewire2 is probably about 3 times faster than USB2.0 (since benchmarks already had Firewire significantly faster than USB 2.0). So I think it would be smart for Apple to upgrade all its USB ports to 2.0, just for compatibility's sake. 3x difference is enough that I don't think external drive makers and video camera makes would drop Firewire2 support entirely in favor of USB 2.0. And if they were going to drop Firewire support they probably would've regardless of what Apple and its 3% market share does...

[Natron]

The only reason USB should be on Macs is for switchers who might have USB 2 devices. I know USB 2 will work on USB 1 ports, but the speed would be greatly reduced.

-Nate

[nanosound]

Analysts are not often right. Just look at the stock market--how many could predict that?

What he doesn't know is there is always room for more bandwidth. And in a few years, we'll have megabandwidth. Just wait.

FW2 would be a good feature to have. Hope it happens.

[locovaca]

Firewire maxes out at 50 MB/s. Most 7200 rpm hard drives cannot even provide a sustained 40 MB/s. FW2 will help burst transfers, but it will not magically double your hard drive transfer speed. Only until they start throwing in 10k or 15k RPM hard drives (which will not happen until they make the IDE versions of them) will we need FW2. The only real good, immediate, application of FW2 will be for networking computers to make clusters. For most everything else the bus isn't really a bottleneck.

[insidedanshead]

Everyones bypassed the real question possed by this.. why would they release Firewire2 without a machine to put it in? Everyones insisting no powermac updates... and yet steves announcing FW2? doesnt add up....

[Codemonkey]

Originally posted by Natron
The only reason USB should be on Macs is for switchers who might have USB 2 devices. I know USB 2 will work on USB 1 ports, but the speed would be greatly reduced.

-Nate

I don't think I follow... I'm not a switcher, however my printer, scanner and digital camera are usb...

Take away usb and you take away the ability to use nearly all peripherals currently being mfg'd ... right?

Incidentally... would FireWire2 be better for capturing HDTV signals? From what I understand, regular 720x486 footage comes in at about 30mb/second... in which case to record a higher def signal would require 'something more' than FireWire1?

[JOHNGAETANO]

The more I look at Apples web site, and compare it to last years hype, I really don't think we are going to see the really really cool surprise device. I mean, I would love nothing more than that, but I doubt it. Apple is not hyping anything at all. It's very quiet.

JOHN

[rmac]

Originally posted by JOHNGAETANO
The more I look at Apples web site, and compare it to last years hype, I really don't think we are going to see the really really cool surprise device. I mean, I would love nothing more than that, but I doubt it. Apple is not hyping anything at all. It's very quiet.

JOHN

The hype going into last year was a first for Apple, I think. Maybe they didn't like the effect it had. I mean, by the time we got to the show I was expecting something so much more than a flat panel iMac. So at least for me, the hype they posted backfired. Better to leave us in the dark...then when we see what Steve has to show we can decide for ourselves how ho-hum or cool it is.

[rugby]

Firewire 2 will be excellent for my 800gb external RAID housing all my replaytv movies. Nice and speedy. Of course I can't actually afford this yet, but someday.....


Originally posted by locovaca
Firewire maxes out at 50 MB/s. Most 7200 rpm hard drives cannot even provide a sustained 40 MB/s. FW2 will help burst transfers, but it will not magically double your hard drive transfer speed. Only until they start throwing in 10k or 15k RPM hard drives (which will not happen until they make the IDE versions of them) will we need FW2. The only real good, immediate, application of FW2 will be for networking computers to make clusters. For most everything else the bus isn't really a bottleneck.

[Codemonkey]

Originally posted by rugby
Firewire 2 will be excellent for my 800gb external RAID housing all my replaytv movies. Nice and speedy. Of course I can't actually afford this yet, but someday.....




You mean, to connect to a computer? Of course, you'd have to get a computer that could handle FireWire2 as well... :-)

[AssassinOfGates]

Ltes hope that either Apple or some 3rd party release a PCI card for it. I just bought this comp in August! Plus, wasn't the Mirrored Drive Doors model supposed to have FW2 according to that PDF that got leaked? Im thinking it may be incorporated into XServes, and possibly following the style of BlueTooth's release at the last MacWorld Tokyo.

[Bear]

Originally posted by locovaca
Firewire maxes out at 50 MB/s. Most 7200 rpm hard drives cannot even provide a sustained 40 MB/s. FW2 will help burst transfers, but it will not magically double your hard drive transfer speed. Only until they start throwing in 10k or 15k RPM hard drives (which will not happen until they make the IDE versions of them) will we need FW2. The only real good, immediate, application of FW2 will be for networking computers to make clusters. For most everything else the bus isn't really a bottleneck.

Ahh, but what about those people with multiple devices on the firewire bus? Then wouldn't FW2 make sense?
Although at that point, each Mac should have two distinctive firewire buses...one for FW2 and one for older FW devices.

[blackpeter]

Originally posted by JOHNGAETANO
The more I look at Apples web site, and compare it to last years hype, I really don't think we are going to see the really really cool surprise device. I mean, I would love nothing more than that, but I doubt it. Apple is not hyping anything at all. It's very quiet.

JOHN

Last year's hype due mailny because they were updating the machine that put Apple back on the map: the iMac. Remember, the iPod was released with a simple press conference and it's been a cornerstone of the Digital Hub strategy.

[kcmac]

Check out this moron (an analyst at IDC):

"Kay is unimpressed with the promise of Firewire2. "I don't know what we need it for. FireWire is really fast already, and data is only as fast as your slowest link -- your PC or your modem or cable line."

Gawd that's funny. I bet this guy has never compared a G4 to a Pentium 4 and voiced that higher speed ain't better!

Do most of us really need the fast processors of today to do what we do. No way! But we have to have it...don't we? :D

[richard5mith]

Umm, excuse me, but insidedanshead has made the best point of all, and you're all missing it.

Everywhere has said no hardware upgrades. So what the heck are they going to put a firewire 2 port on? Thin air?

Isn't this a good sign for iMac or Powermac updates?

[jayscheuerle]

Apple should have both USB2 and Firewire2 in their machines. USB2 is a cheap no-brainer. You can get a card at CompUSA for $20 and it will work in Jaguar. It's cheaper for peripheral owners to make their scanners/printers USB, so let 'em.

I have the feeling that Apple's avoiding putting USB2 in their machines because they see it as competition to Firewire. That's a shame, because it's the consumers who are losing out...

[daveg5]

Originally posted by rugby
Firewire 2 will be excellent for my 800gb external RAID housing all my replaytv movies. Nice and speedy. Of course I can't actually afford this yet, but someday.....



This will be a god send for motu and yamaha and hopefully Apple soon with mlan and other firewire audio/midi interfaces, i though Apple was working with yamaha to incoperate mlan in the OS, that was before the emagic purchase. just think og how many audio and midi tracks available in 1 firewire cable will also be great for networking and the faster 50MB per second WD jumbo cahce drives

[Sun Baked]

The UniNorth chip may have untapped resources, or a bug may have prevented implementation of Firewire 2 in the XServe and MMD Powermac.

The old leaked MMD block diagram specs listed the current UniNorth as having a 100/200/400/800 Firewire interface.

However to get USB 2 a new KeyLargo would have to be made.

To get Firewire2 and/or USB2 into the iMac/iBook a new Pangea chip would need to be made.

The eMac is an odd duck, the Apple tech library shows in the block diagrams as more of a PowerMac knockoff with a UniNorth/Key Largo chipset.

[daveg5]

Originally posted by richard5mith
Umm, excuse me, but insidedanshead has made the best point of all, and you're all missing it.

Everywhere has said no hardware upgrades. So what the heck are they going to put a firewire 2 port on? Thin air?

Isn't this a good sign for iMac or Powermac updates?
you must be right an ipod with firewire to would only have slightly faster performance, so maybe the slot load imac will be there, then again it could be a multi media/ tv tuner tivo type box or tablet or something we have,nt thought of, but its fair to say all new Macs coming will have firewire 2 finally, if so then they can include usb 2 for all those scanners out there and newer cameras coming soon. without giving up bragging rights. to cone

[voicegy]

Originally posted by JOHNGAETANO
The more I look at Apples web site, and compare it to last years hype, I really don't think we are going to see the really really cool surprise device. I mean, I would love nothing more than that, but I doubt it. Apple is not hyping anything at all. It's very quiet.

JOHN

I couldn't agree more. Last year during the Keynote Countdown, we were practically jumping out of our collective skins, expecting nothing less than the secret to anti-gravity coming out of Apple. It did nothing but tick us all off, and rightly so...we're so incorrigible in our desires and wants when it comes to these things, even though it's admittedly a hellofa lotta fun.

I personally think that when it comes out of nowhere, from left field, with no hint whatsoever of what it could be, it's all the more jaw dropping just because they could keep it quiet so well. That's when I shake my head and say "Right on, people. You kept it close to your vest and fooled us all." It's my hope, though I'm not holding my breath, that that's what I'll be saying come tomorrow post-Stevenote. Whatever "it" may be, of course.;)

[-hh]

Originally posted by richard5mith
Umm, excuse me, but insidedanshead has made the best point of all, and you're all missing it.

Everywhere has said no hardware upgrades. So what the heck are they going to put a firewire 2 port on? Thin air?

Isn't this a good sign for iMac or Powermac updates?


Maybe, maybe not.

For example, would it have been possible for Apple to build FW2 into recent production existing machines and just not have it enabled (yet) by OS X 10.2?

Would that not qualify for "out of thin air"?

Granted, it would probably piss some people off, but it would be showmanship, and get a ton of free press.


-hh

[pgwalsh]

Originally posted by insidedanshead
Everyones bypassed the real question possed by this.. why would they release Firewire2 without a machine to put it in? Everyones insisting no powermac updates... and yet steves announcing FW2? doesnt add up.... I agree. I'm betting on new PM's tomorrow. So much iDevice hype on MR lately.

[Liquidity X]

i just hope we see add ons for peps with current hardware, liek a FW 2 PCI card.

[cubist]

Nah, no new Powermacs. Just plug in the PCI card. Same thing with Airport 2, just make a new Airport 2 card (combo card with bluetooth, maybe) and pretty much the whole line can benefit. No need to change the base platforms at all.

[Knox]

Originally posted by -hh
For example, would it have been possible for Apple to build FW2 into recent production existing machines and just not have it enabled (yet) by OS X 10.2?


I believe FW2 has a completely different connector to FW1 so i don't think this is possible.

[Knox]

Originally posted by richard5mith
Everywhere has said no hardware upgrades. So what the heck are they going to put a firewire 2 port on? Thin air?

Isn't this a good sign for iMac or Powermac updates?

I'd probably agree, it is quite a good sign, but there's nothing to say that the updates will be tomorrow, just likely to be pretty soon.

It's quite possible SmartDisk had intended to sit on the announcement for a few weeks, which would have then brought it into the late jan/early feb that had been predicted by some sites.

We can always hope it's tomorrow though :)

[IndyGopher]

Most everyone is reacting as though this article on itworld.com is factual, complete information... I suspect it is, but I also must say that I don't put a whole lot of faith in these people.. since they talk about MacWorld Expo in Las Vegas this week.. *cough*

[mrkstu]

Current Tech not utilized yet:

Rendevous
Bluetooth
IP Networking over Firewire
Handwriting Recognition

New Tech Expected:

FW2
Videoconferencing
DLD
additions to iChat
Airport (g)

Some possibilities then:

DLD with camera, Bluetooth, FW2, Networkable, shareable, mountable on the network with Rendevous,

One device that could replace:

Tablets
Netcam/Webcams
iPod
Tivo?

What would it look like:

5-7 inch lcd with hard drive, Citriq(sp?) sytle tablet, airport (g version, maybe optional card)/bluetooth, firewire, dvd (built in rip to HD with DRM features for hollywood)?

I would want one... if it was under a grand...

Mark

[cryptochrome]

Originally posted by locovaca
Firewire maxes out at 50 MB/s. Most 7200 rpm hard drives cannot even provide a sustained 40 MB/s. FW2 will help burst transfers, but it will not magically double your hard drive transfer speed. Only until they start throwing in 10k or 15k RPM hard drives (which will not happen until they make the IDE versions of them) will we need FW2. The only real good, immediate, application of FW2 will be for networking computers to make clusters. For most everything else the bus isn't really a bottleneck.

Maybe drive tech like FW2 (and fast bus standards like Hypertransport etc. ) would help push faster drives into reality.

Certainly it could work with RAIDS in the meantime.

[MarkMc]

The release is still available on E*Trade...

=====================

SmartDisk New FirePower Drive Applies FireWire 800 Mbit Technology

January 06, 2003 05:02:00 (ET)

SAN FRANCISCO, Jan 6, 2003 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- SmartDisk Corporation (SMDK, Trade) today introduced a new line of high performance desktop hard drives that connect to Apple's computers using the new, higher speed, 800 Mbit/sec FireWire(TM) standard. SmartDisk FirePower(TM) is being showcased in Booth 1142, The Moscone Center at Macworld Expo, San Francisco, January 7-10, and in Booth 30175, South 4 Hall, The Las Vegas Convention Center at International CES.

With a 3.5" mechanism and a capacity of 200 GB, FirePower is designed to store extremely large files with ease, such as those created with digital video authoring software and other multimedia applications. FirePower operates with FireWire 800 or standard FireWire 400-equipped Macintosh computers as well as Windows-based USB2.0 personal computers. Housed in an attractive white case, FirePower features a 7200-rpm mechanism with an 8-megabyte cache and the new Oxford 922 high performance bridge chip.

"FireWire 800 sets the stage for a huge leap in the speed of data transfer between Mac platforms and their peripherals," said Stuart Cox, Vice President, Product Development for SmartDisk. "Our FirePower hard drive takes advantage of this new speed to satisfy the hunger for faster data access and massive file storage, as is so often required in Apple's media-intensive user community."

Availability

FirePower will be available in March through retailers and distributors, as well as through the company's Web site at http://www.smartdisk.com.

About SmartDisk Corporation

SmartDisk develops, manufactures and markets a range of imaginative consumer electronic products and exciting software solutions that are enabling the digital age and simplifying the digital lifestyle. The Company's innovative products help users transfer, store, manage and share digital music, video, pictures and data. Headquartered in the U.S., with operations in Europe and Asia, SmartDisk sells and supports its products worldwide. For more information, go to http://www.smartdisk.com.

This press release includes statements that may constitute forward-looking statements made pursuant to the safe harbor provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Although the Company believes the expectations contained in such forward-looking statements are reasonable, it can give no assurance that such expectations will prove correct. These statements may involve risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from expected results. Such risks include, but are not limited to, risk factors described in the Company's periodic and other filings made with the SEC. The Company assumes no obligation to update the forward-looking statements contained in this press release.

All trade names referenced are trademarks or registered trademarks of their respective holders.

SmartDisk Corporation, Naples, Fla.
Crystal Revak, 239/436-2591
Crystal.Revak@smartdisk.com

http://www.businesswire.com

Today's News On The Net - Business Wire's full file on the Internet
with Hyperlinks to your home page.

Copyright (C) 2003 Business Wire. All rights reserved.

[chewbaccapits]

"why would they release Firewire2 without a machine to put it in? Everyones insisting no powermac updates... and yet steves announcing FW2? doesnt add up...." ---Great point DANsHead...


But my question is...How come USB2 accepts USB1 without a hitch (ALLEGEDLY) and FW2 cannot? Could it have been designed to accept FW1 peripherals as well?

[locovaca]

Originally posted by cryptochrome


Maybe drive tech like FW2 (and fast bus standards like Hypertransport etc. ) would help push faster drives into reality.



That's a nice thought, but we already have much faster standards, such as U320 SCSI (320 Megs a sec!). In terms of drive technology Firewire is on the very, very low end. Serious systems use SCSI RAID cards with dedicated processors and cache ram. Firewire is great for us end consumers and low end editing, but, IMHO, it isn't going to drive the industry.

Additionally, it isn't the busses holding back drive technology- it's the magnetic media itself. There's a reason that 10k and 15k rpm hard drives cost so much, and it isn't because they feel like it. The challenge of making hard drives anything more than a tiny fraction of the speed of memory has been one that has gone on for the last 50 years, and its one that will probably never be solved. Firewire 2 isn't going to make it anymore of a reality than it was yesterday.

[Beej]

Originally posted by chewbaccapits
But my question is...How come USB2 accepts USB1 without a hitch (ALLEGEDLY) and FW2 cannot? Could it have been designed to accept FW1 peripherals as well? You will be able to plug a FW1 device into a FW2 port and use it like normal, you just won't get the speed gains. Same goes with USB1 devices in USB2 sockets.

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by JOHNGAETANO

The more I look at Apples web site, and compare it to last years hype, I really don't think we are going to see the really really cool surprise device. I mean, I would love nothing more than that, but I doubt it. Apple is not hyping anything at all. It's very quiet.

That attitude is exactly what SJ is counting on!

Last year's hype made more sense, Steve's picture was on the cover of Time Magazine!
Also, last year we knew a flat-panel iMac was on the way (although we had no idea it would look the way it did), this year we know just about nothing.

I'm waiting for the "and one more thing..." :D

[chewbaccapits]

Originally posted by locovaca

Firewire is great for us end consumers and low end editing, but, IMHO, it isn't going to drive the industry.



Look what kind of IMPACT firewire alone has done.....Its taken time but its moving....

[chewbaccapits]

Thanks Beej....

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by pgwalsh

I agree. I'm betting on new PM's tomorrow. So much iDevice hype on MR lately.

Two things here.

1. No new Powermacs tomorrow. I'm betting my proverbial farm on it.

2. There's been so much iDevice hype because there'll probably be an iDevice on stage with SJ tomorrow.

About the Powermac line. Depending on when IBM will really have the PowerPC 970 ready, I'd say the MDD Powermacs will be the last (or second to last) major Powermac update. I'm in no way ruling out speed-bump after speed-bump here, but nothing huge (except possibly Firewire 2)...
Not until it's the Powermac 970...

[iwantanewmac]

Originally posted by insidedanshead
Everyones bypassed the real question possed by this.. why would they release Firewire2 without a machine to put it in? Everyones insisting no powermac updates... and yet steves announcing FW2? doesnt add up....

Well.Maybe they will just stick it in the this seasons DDR towers with a minor cpu speed upgrade to go with it.
Another excuse for apple to stick with motorola for a while.

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by iwantanewmac

Well.Maybe they will just stick it in the this seasons DDR towers with a minor cpu speed upgrade to go with it.
Another excuse for apple to stick with motorola for a while.

Apple can't announce a switch to IBM and the 970 until they can ship machines with the chip in them. If they did, G4 sales would drop, a lot.

Besides, Motorola might still supply G4 chips for Powerbooks and iMacs (I really don't know who's making the G3s right now, I read something that said IBM made some of them).

[Beej]

Originally posted by chewbaccapits
Thanks Beej.... No worries :)



Given that this FW2 product is not available until March, it is possible that:
1. There will be no mention of FW2 at all at MWSF
2. FW2 will be announced at MWSF, and be progressively introduced to new hardware as Apple's profucts are updated.

Both scenarios are perfectly feasible, and both mean no new hardware would need to be introduced at MWSF.

However, from what I recall, Apple's consumer machines are due to be updated before their pro machines. (I may be wrong on this, please correct me if I am. However, if I am right...) This would mean that either the consumer machines get FW2 before the pro machines - not an ideal situation - or the consumer machines don't get FW2 in their next update, meaning it will be another 6+ months until they do - again, not an ideal situation.

Another possibility is that the whole lineup is updated at the same time to add FW2. This seems unlikely.

[pyrotoaster]

You're right, beej.

Not just are both of your scenarios plausible, the consumer Macs are due for an update, probably within a month's time.

[IndyGopher]

Apple sold firewire PCI cards for the beige G3's before the Blue and White G3's came out, in order to support using digital (firewire equipped) camcorders with Final Cut Pro. The same thing will happen with the new firewire standard. The idea that announcing support for firewire 2 means releasing whole new computers to use it is either wildly optimistic or hopelessly naive.

[pyrotoaster]

But you can't put a PCI card in an iMac, can you?

[IndyGopher]

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
But you can't put a PCI card in an iMac, can you?

No, you can't. And now there will be another reason why the Pro towers are better than the iMacs... for a revision or 2 at least.

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by IndyGopher

No, you can't. And now there will be another reason why the Pro towers are better than the iMacs... for a revision or 2 at least.

Apple needs to appeal to the home consumer, they won't screw them.

Besides, the iMac and the eMac are due for an update.

[Beej]

Originally posted by IndyGopher
Apple sold firewire PCI cards for the beige G3's before the Blue and White G3's came out, in order to support using digital (firewire equipped) camcorders with Final Cut Pro. The same thing will happen with the new firewire standard.
...
I didn't know that. Even so, if Apple updates it's consumer models with FW2 and makes pro customers buy extra PCI cards to get what the consumers get for 'free.'

Now here's an idea... what if Apple were to update their consumer machines and offer free FW2 PCI cards with thier PowerMacs? It wouldn't solve the problem with the TiBook, but it would keep most people happy.

...
The idea that announcing support for firewire 2 means releasing whole new computers to use it is either wildly optimistic or hopelessly naive.
Neither, actually, but thanks for that :p. It was more of a 'someone who's serious about this may suggest it, so I'll just air my thoughts on that fact it is unlikely before people get wildly optimistic' comment. :)

--

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
But you can't put a PCI card in an iMac, can you? No, you can't.

[lazyrighteye]

Ahhh, the calm before the storm...

Do Dell dorks ever get this hyped about their products?

Maybe FW2 is going to debut first in an iPod(ish) device (or set top box) - and not a desk or laptop... yet.

We'll know a lot more tomorrow. But I have learned not to get too hyped by MWSF. The higher you climb, the further you'll fall. And boy, have I come tumbling down in the past... ouch.

[locovaca]

Originally posted by chewbaccapits



Look what kind of IMPACT firewire alone has done.....Its taken time but its moving....


Uhh... what impact? DV cameras and low end, external storage. I remember how firewire was supposed to become the internal bus for all storage devices- that didn't really catch on. I know what it's supposed to do for stereo and home theaters, but I'm still waiting. My point was that Firewire is not used for high end equipment, be it editing, storage farms, etc. There you will still find rack mounts like Xserve/Xraid, NAS devices, and super high throughput devices dedicated and specialized to data storage, such as SCSI. 1. There still is not enough bandwidth. 2. High end drives are not made into Firewire devices. 3. Serious RAID arrays are made with dedicated cards with dedicated processors to handle the striping and cache ram.

Firewire is great for the consumer. My point is that, for the average user, it's not going to mean much. For the high end industry it's going to mean even little. It's a lot like comparing USB 2 to USB 1.1- some applications will get a boost, but the most general uses of USB (mice, keyboards, digital cameras, etc.) it won't mean too much. The reason it's even less dramatic with Firewire is because the original spec already had a gob of bandwidth by today's need.

[Beej]

Originally posted by lazyrighteye
Maybe FW2 is going to debut first in an iPod(ish) device (or set top box) - and not a desk or laptop... yet.I guess that a posible. Given that FW2 is backwards compatible with FW1, you could still use this new device with your current Mac. I think it is unlikely though, why would Apple release some whiz-bang new DLD when no Mac, in fact no computer at all, can ustilise it fully?

[locovaca]

Originally posted by Beej

Now here's an idea... what if Apple were to update their consumer machines and offer free FW2 PCI cards with thier PowerMacs? It wouldn't solve the problem with the TiBook, but it would keep most people happy.



For TiBook users they could provide a Cardbus based PCMCIA card. They would still get the full 800 Mb

[Sun Baked]

The TiBook, XServe, PowerMac, and eMac run the dual chip UniNorth/KeyLargo.

The iBook and iMac run the single chip Pangea.

Here are the eMac and iMac block diagrams.

eMac http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G4/eMac/art/nor01.gif

iMac http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G4/iMac/art/ts01.gif

While the PNY (acts as firewire hub and supplies power) is probably used across the line, the UniNorth and Pangea have to support FW2 as does the KeyLargo and Pangea for USB2.

[kcmac]

by locovaca
Firewire is great for the consumer. My point is that, for the average user, it's not going to mean much. For the high end industry it's going to mean even little. It's a lot like comparing USB 2 to USB 1.1- some applications will get a boost, but the most general uses of USB (mice, keyboards, digital cameras, etc.) it won't mean too much. The reason it's even less dramatic with Firewire is because the original spec already had a gob of bandwidth by today's need.

You make some good points. However FW 2 is important in the fact that it must get the greater public perception that it is faster than USB 2.0.

Look how quickly the press jumped on USB 2 and the misinformation it spreads about the superiority of USB 2 just based on 480 vs. 400. It is another processor war.

This will keep Firewire in the limelight and maybe its impact will start to increase. The Intel machine kept the focus on the emergence of USB 2 which stalled the FW front. Soon it will be interesting to see what firewire can really do.

[Macmaniac]

I'm sure if it was FW2 it would be on the new iMac plus Apple would release a card for the Powermacs so they can use FW2!
Score one for Apple for making FW2 backward compatible, that will be a key in adopting it!

My Video editing side is droolin!!!!

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by locovaca



Uhh... what impact? DV cameras and low end, external storage. I remember how firewire was supposed to become the internal bus for all storage devices- that didn't really catch on. I know what it's supposed to do for stereo and home theaters, but I'm still waiting. My point was that Firewire is not used for high end equipment, be it editing, storage farms, etc. There you will still find rack mounts like Xserve/Xraid, NAS devices, and super high throughput devices dedicated and specialized to data storage, such as SCSI. 1. There still is not enough bandwidth. 2. High end drives are not made into Firewire devices. 3. Serious RAID arrays are made with dedicated cards with dedicated processors to handle the striping and cache ram.

Firewire is great for the consumer. My point is that, for the average user, it's not going to mean much. For the high end industry it's going to mean even little. It's a lot like comparing USB 2 to USB 1.1- some applications will get a boost, but the most general uses of USB (mice, keyboards, digital cameras, etc.) it won't mean too much. The reason it's even less dramatic with Firewire is because the original spec already had a gob of bandwidth by today's need.

FW and FW2 (whenever it comes out) are great for everyone. Everyone I know has seen what FW has done in the consumer and prosumer markets (and in indie films and documentaries) and they waiting for it to happen in the pro market. Companies like Panasonic and Sony are working on hi-end decks w/FW i/o. Everyone one wants keep it lossless and keep it digital. I've even seen HDTVs w/firewire i/o.

The problem is that companies, even small ones, have hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars invested in their current analog equipment and they won't dump that at the drop of a hat. It takes a lot of time for people in production to change over (it's not uncommon to Avid setups running on 5 or 6 year old PowerPCs), but everyone is looking forward to the days when it's all digital, all the time, all on one cable (you ain't seen cable clutter 'til you've seen TV cable clutter ;)).


Lethal

[nickgold]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe


The problem is that companies, even small ones, have hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars invested in their current analog equipment and they won't dump that at the drop of a hat. It takes a lot of time for people in production to change over (it's not uncommon to Avid setups running on 5 or 6 year old PowerPCs), but everyone is looking forward to the days when it's all digital, all the time, all on one cable (you ain't seen cable clutter 'til you've seen TV cable clutter ;)).


Dude, you toadally said it. Firewire is of the future, and the production world is whiny and conservative and already over-budget and definitely of the past, often. Standards take YEARS to develop, and then when they hit, last FOREVER. Even when they are well past their prime, technologically.

Firewire AV/MIDI/networking/bliss will happen, eventually. Give it some time. For most people, with current HD technology, I don't see FireWire 2 being all that useful. As has been said, most folks' HDs are already pretty much saturated. I guess FireWire 2 is more about marketting, at this point.... If it happens. (I don't see it.)

[locovaca]

Originally posted by kcmac
by locovaca


You make some good points. However FW 2 is important in the fact that it must get the greater public perception that it is faster than USB 2.0.

Look how quickly the press jumped on USB 2 and the misinformation it spreads about the superiority of USB 2 just based on 480 vs. 400. It is another processor war.

This will keep Firewire in the limelight and maybe its impact will start to increase. The Intel machine kept the focus on the emergence of USB 2 which stalled the FW front. Soon it will be interesting to see what firewire can really do.

You're right. It is exactly like the processor war because most PCs don't come with Firewire. So, people that look at PCs see USB on every machine, but not Firewire, so they buy USB periphrials. Go to bestbuy.com and do a search for usb- 264 hits under computers. Do a search for Firewire- only 13, and of those 13, only 3 are for actual peripherals. IMHO, that's why USB is being hyped much more than Firewire- not too many people have or even know about Firewire. So, it becomes another "minority market share with a better product" vs "majority market share with a not as efficient product"- kinda sounds familar, doesn't it? I don't think the public perception of the speeds will be as important as making it a standard on every machine. It took USB quite a while to catch on to the mainstream because it had to wait for everyone to get a computer that had USB- there were many MP3 players that came out as a Parallel port connection even though USB was better in every respect. If PC manufacturers put Firewire on every PC, you wouldn't see all of these USB hard drives, USB Dazzle video capturers, and even USB Flash Card readers (which, in many cases, do not go at the full speed of the card).

I'm not trying to debate the importance of Firewire. I guess I'm more cautious of the impact of FW2 vs FW. To me it seems more like a step on the ladder, like going from ATA 100 to ATA 133, than anything else.

[gropo]

Originally posted by locovaca
I'm not trying to debate the importance of Firewire. I guess I'm more cautious of the impact of FW2 vs FW. To me it seems more like a step on the ladder, like going from ATA 100 to ATA 133, than anything else. If it's backwards-compatible, what's the problem? Production houses can start adding components as they see fit.

It will surely be a boon for the pro-sumer HD-DV market set to emerge this year. Canon and Panasonic will doubtfully choose USB 2.0 as the I/O standard on those puppies. FireWire1 would result in a buggy, frame-dropping intercourse.

FW2 will see many uses by mid-2004.