Intel's New Image and Apple's Role

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Much of the news surrounding Apple these days has Intel intimately involved. Intel Macs are widely expected to be announced soon at Macworld San Francisco.

Businessweek looks (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_02/b3966001.htm) at Intel and their recent corporate shift which will be featured at CES next week.

Indeed, Intel does plan to change (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2005/12/20051229122704.shtml) their corporate branding by changing their logo and spending $2.5 billion advertising and marketing glitz. Now led by Paul Otellini, Intel is shifting its focus from PCs alone to software and hardware "platforms" ranging from consumer electronics to health care.

Apple's role in this is also a departure for Intel:

For years, Grove and Barrett pooh-poohed Apple as a niche company whose products had sleek form, but nowhere near the function of computers with Intel's chips. Yet Otellini set about wooing Jobs almost from the start.

Otellini believes that Apple has been a front-runner in design and "as they start taking advantage of some of our lower-power products, that form factor will improve significantly. I think it will help drive a trend toward smaller, cheaper, cooler."

[Lacero]

That's great that Apple is influencing Intel in a positive way.

Paul Otellini is proving himself to be a worthy CEO successor to Andy Grove, who himself I adore just as much as Steve Jobs. Only good things can come from their collaboration. Buy Apple stocks.

[combatcolin]

Intel = Cute And Fluffy!

[zv470]

as long as the Intel inside logo is on the back, hang on... on the inside of the case :p :)


edit: sorry Intel, you are cool, just... we don't want extra logos on the outside.

[javiercr]

Computing is so present in everyday life that it is about time design becomes more imporant, enough ungly grey boxes. Apple has again been a pioneer, others will follow, lets hope apple still keeps an edge.

[BornAgainMac]

I wish Mr. Otellini would say "At Intel, we are happy to showcase our products with a real OS" rather than mentioned something about lower-power products. It sounds like lower-power means Powerless Mac to the newbie or hardcore PowerPC fanboy. I know they can't say anything bad about Microsoft because they are major customer.

I agree with the post earlier. Apple stock will most likely go up with the increase publicity. I predict a stock split by Feb 2006.

[zv470]

hmm, strange love decrangle:

Excel on Apple,
MS DOS on Intel,
Windows on MS DOS on Intel,
Office on Windows on MS DOS on Intel,
Apple on PowerPC,
Office on Windows on MS DOS on AMD,
iTunes on Motorola ROKR,
Microsoft uses PowerPC chips in XBox,
Palm Treo running Windows Mobile,
Apple uses Intel processors,


Whats next?

:D

[runninmac]

As long as they dont make "cheaper" computers im fine with this thing. There design should help them lead the way though this transition

[Sol]

'Smaller, cheaper, cooler' sounds like a great direction for Apple's computers. They allready lead the rest of the PC industry in design but if they can make improvements then why not? Ultimately I would like to see fans disappear from computers so that Cube-like silence could be achieved again.

[Lacero]

Ultimately I would like to see fans disappear from computers so that Cube-like silence could be achieved again.
Noise still comes from the hard drive, so zen-like silence would be nearly impossible. I'd wish the hard drive manufacturers could come out with variable speed drives that can rev down, say 2400 rpm, to near silence during periods of inactivity such listening to tunes or watching DVDs.

Drives are getting louder and hotter, so something's going to have to give.

Here's to the Crazy Ones http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35452 (http://www.uriah.com/apple-qt/movies/think-different.mov)

[J@ffa]

Noise still comes from the hard drive, so zen-like silence would be nearly impossible.

Well, i'm not an acoustic engineer or anything but if it was making a low enough amount of noise, a bit of trickery could probably dissipate it enough to make it sound as if it was silent, even if it wasn't, right?

[thequicksilver]

I both look forward to this and fear it. My 12" iBook is probably going to look like a tank and lose about 30% of its resale value the second the Intel ones come out.

But, to coin a phrase from the original TiBook advert… "but boy, I'm going to so want one". :D

[scheming]

You know Apple has never been a company to sell anything that didn't seem to cost a lot. Take a look at the Powerbooks and Power Macs now and it will put a frown on your face. I mean, I could get a laptop from so many different manufacturers with some great specs for way under $2,000 but this isn't the case with Apple. If Intel steps in and really makes it so that the new laptops from Apple are smaller and cooler that would be great. You throw the word cheaper in there and im in :).

[Darwin]

Times are certainly a changing

Its gonna be good :D

[Norse Son]

Well, what about the recent stories regarding flash chips? Didn't some major supplier just announce 16GB chips?

Now, I know that doesn't mean that if you "glue" 8 of 'em on a slice of silicon that you have 128GB, but it does signal that flash drives in the 30-60GB range are "just around the corner" (maybe late 2007?).

Perhaps by 2010 our PowerBooks will have a 10GB flash drive, for "instant on" booting, as well as a 200GB S-ATA 300(?) hard drive... Flash drives of that capacity are "affordably" at least 10 years off.

But just think how quiet that laptop would be...

[YS2003]

You know Apple has never been a company to sell anything that didn't seem to cost a lot. Take a look at the Powerbooks and Power Macs now and it will put a frown on your face. I mean, I could get a laptop from so many different manufacturers with some great specs for way under $2,000 but this isn't the case with Apple. If Intel steps in and really makes it so that the new laptops from Apple are smaller and cooler that would be great. You throw the word cheaper in there and im in :).
I think the price of admission (to Macintosh) is higher than the run-of-the-mill Windows-based PCs. As far as I am concerned, I am very comfortable with the current pricing of Apple products. Especially the current 12" iBook is very competitively priced

[Peace]

Sounds to me like Otellini and Jobs are making smart moves.

I'd buy APPL and dump MSFT...

[artistry]

as long as the Intel inside logo is on the back, hang on... on the inside of the case :p :)


It won't according to the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4568920.stm

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41168000/jpg/_41168074_intel_203.jpg

[tom.96]

I was quite sceptical when the intel venture was announced, but now I'm really keen on it and comments like the above really make me think this is the best way to to go.

The last machine I had with an Intel chip was a Pentium running at 133mhz !

I can't wait to buy a new intelmac in the new year!

[Maestro64]

What we all have to be concerned about here is what will happen to the quality and reliability of the systems. No one can argue that Apple has the highest quality of all systems manufacturers out there with a few except of lemons that Apple has made I the past.

This is by no means an accident on Apple's part. Part of the reason we all pay so much more for an Apple is becuase of the amount of testing, qualification and attention to details Apple puts in to every product. Intel does not have the same reputation. I concerned that these lower end products being mentioned here will fall well short of a standard apple products.

Plus with the rumors of the pending new Intel product to be announce with the help of Intel's design center I am afraid we will all get the same crap the PC world has been getting. I do not believe Apple had the bandwith or the time to fully test and qualify an Intel design, plus it so hard to transfer lessons learned from previous designs to a new design group. One of the reasons Apple designs are so good is their design teams have been together so long and they learn from the past.

I think it will be prudent before we all buy to find out who actually did the design, Apple or Intel, personally I stay way from anything that has an intel PCB in it, remember intel is a Chip company not a systems company go with what you do best and stayway from everything else.

[Porchland]

John Markoff, who covers Apple for the New York Times writes today

"It is possible that Mr. Jobs will extend the company's iTunes video strategy from the current portable iPod video player into a Yonah-based set-top box that would permit Apple to define the next generation of home video as completely as it has dominated the market for digital audio."

The article was more about Intel, but Markoff is one of the reporters that broke the Mactel story earlier this year.

For licensed Times users, here's the full article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/30/technology/30chip.html

[Maestro64]

It won't according to the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4568920.stm

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41168000/jpg/_41168074_intel_203.jpg
I find the first statement in that article interesting " the world largest chip manufacture" this is not necessaryly true, for people in the industry it is know that IBM is still the largest foundary of chips in the world. Howevery most of those chips are not sold in the open market IBM uses them internally.

[Peace]

What we all have to be concerned about here is what will happen to the quality and reliability of the systems. No one can argue that Apple has the highest quality of all systems manufacturers out there with a few except of lemons that Apple has made I the past.

This is by no means an accident on Apple's part. Part of the reason we all pay so much more for an Apple is becuase of the amount of testing, qualification and attention to details Apple puts in to every product. Intel does not have the same reputation. I concerned that these lower end products being mentioned here will fall well short of a standard apple products.

Plus with the rumors of the pending new Intel product to be announce with the help of Intel's design center I am afraid we will all get the same crap the PC world has been getting. I do not believe Apple had the bandwith or the time to fully test and qualify an Intel design, plus it so hard to transfer lessons learned from previous designs to a new design group. One of the reasons Apple designs are so good is their design teams have been together so long and they learn from the past.

I think it will be prudent before we all buy to find out who actually did the design, Apple or Intel, personally I stay way from anything that has an intel PCB in it, remember intel is a Chip company not a systems company go with what you do best and stayway from everything else.

I believe Apple is in Oregon with Intel to make the best computer.Two heads are better than one in some cases..
Who knows.Maybe these two thinktanks are trying to come up with the next great thing..
Intel does some good design work as does Apple..

[Marx55]

The "Intel Inside" or "Intel whatever" or "Intel" sticker on the new Mactels is GREAT news because it will bring:

- Cheaper Macs.
- Halo effect: millions of new switchers
- Larger Mac OS X and Mactel market share

Grow up! --A sticker will not harm your Mac!

[Maestro64]

I believe Apple is in Oregon with Intel to make the best computer.Two heads are better than one in some cases..
Who knows.Maybe these two thinktanks are trying to come up with the next great thing..
Intel does some good design work as does Apple..

I do not beleive Apple engineering is in Oregon, and Intel has be in an out of the PCB and System business so many times it will make you head spin. Intel has only does these kinds of things to help promote the selling of chips where they make the real money. Trust me I have seen Intel designs and had to deal with their lack of attention to details and thermal management. Plus I am very familiar with Apple's design methods and qualification and Intel may try but in the end they will ship the product no mater what.

[Peace]

I do not beleive Apple engineering is in Oregon, and Intel has be in an out of the PCB and System business so many times it will make you head spin. Intel has only does these kinds of things to help promote the selling of chips where they make the real money. Trust me I have seen Intel designs and had to deal with their lack of attention to details and thermal management. Plus I am very familiar with Apple's design methods and qualification and Intel may try but in the end they will ship the product no mater what.


I wasn't saying Apple engineering was located in Oregon.I was saying Intel Oregon and Apple are working together at the Intel think tank there:)

[Maestro64]

The "Intel Inside" or "Intel whatever" or "Intel" sticker on the new Mactels is GREAT news because it will bring:

- Cheaper Macs.
- Halo effect: millions of new switchers
- Larger Mac OS X and Mactel market share

Grow up! --A sticker will not harm your Mac!

I hope for more sales!!! Since that will help all the stock I own.

But I do not believe Apple or Jobs will ever allow the Intel logo to grace the outside of the computer. If you look at every single apple computer it is completely void of goddie logos. they have the Apple logo and the name of the product and what makes an Apple is not the fact of the processor inside, look how many processor Apple has gone through over the yrs, 68K, 020, 030, 040, PPC 601, 602, 603, G3, G4, G5, and for the most part Apple never really advertised on the computer what was inside.

If the logo shows up I would be very surprised and all you can say is Jobs sold out his principles. Oh, you bet Intel would like that logo on there and you can bet it was part of the negotiations, but Apple does not need Intel's advertising dollars they already spends $100's millions on advertising aready.

[Porchland]

The "Intel Inside" or "Intel whatever" or "Intel" sticker on the new Mactels is GREAT news because it will bring:

- Cheaper Macs.
- Halo effect: millions of new switchers
- Larger Mac OS X and Mactel market share

Grow up! --A sticker will not harm your Mac!

The BBC article doesn't say anything about Apple slapping Intel stickers on its products. Do you have any news reports to the contrary?

[freeny]

It seems Intel has gotten all excited now that the "cool kid" wants to play with him and are taking the opportunity to get a makover.

[Platform]

Grow up! --A sticker will not harm your Mac!

You wanna bet ??? :mad: :p

[Maestro64]

I wasn't saying Apple engineering was located in Oregon.I was saying Intel Oregon and Apple are working together at the Intel think tank there:)
I would not call Intel Oregon a think tank, they might like to believe it but it is a manufacturing design center.

I was contacted by them right before the Apple/Intel announcement last summer to come on board to help with their design qualification efforts, at first it did not make sense to me since they could probably find many PC people with the necessary experience. After the announcement it made sense since I worked for Apple at one time and I am very familiar with their design and qualification requires.

I was also contacted by their chip systems integration group too at about the same time. Kind of odd that two Intel groups contacted me and seemed to be very interested in my previous apple experience. They obviously were trying to gear up for the pending announcement.

[Seasought]

I think the price of admission (to Macintosh) is higher than the run-of-the-mill Windows-based PCs. As far as I am concerned, I am very comfortable with the current pricing of Apple products. Especially the current 12" iBook is very competitively priced

That comfort only comes from being a Mac user, I've found. From an outsider's perspective the prices seem dramatically over-priced and I think some of the Mac criticism stems from this. Now, if the critics had the opportunity to sit down and use a Mac for a month I'm sure their tone would change.

[Maestro64]

That comfort only comes from being a Mac user, I've found. From an outsider's perspective the prices seem dramatically over-priced and I think some of the Mac criticism stems from this. Now, if the critics had the opportunity to sit down and use a Mac for a month I'm sure their tone would change.

Those same critics who say it cost too much are the same people who buy Yogo's and Kia's. And complain that a BMW, Ferrara, Porsche and Mercedes are too expensive.

I found that most people are willing to pay less for less quality and replace it more offen than to spend more and possible never have to replace it. Most people only think about the money out of their pocket today not what it will cost them over the long term.

[DakotaGuy]

But I do not believe Apple or Jobs will ever allow the Intel logo to grace the outside of the computer. If you look at every single apple computer it is completely void of goddie logos. they have the Apple logo and the name of the product and what makes an Apple is not the fact of the processor inside, look how many processor Apple has gone through over the yrs, 68K, 020, 030, 040, PPC 601, 602, 603, G3, G4, G5, and for the most part Apple never really advertised on the computer

It seems to me that the PowerPC logo appeared on Apple computers for several years after the switch from 68K processors. I think the last Macs to have a PowerPC logo were the beige G3's.

[Seasought]

I found that most people are willing to pay less for less quality and replace it more offen than to spend more and possible never have to replace it. Most people only think about the money out of their pocket today not what it will cost them over the long term.

You're exactly right. I know a number of people that do exactly this and don't realize that they are spending more replacing cheaper items. You get what you pay for but so many people tend to fall into the mindset that they're beating the system or getting some sort of "sweet deal" even though they have to repeat that "sweet deal" twice as many times due to the product failing on them.

I'm digressing a bit here...oops.

[Maestro64]

It seems to me that the PowerPC logo appeared on Apple computers for several years after the switch from 68K processors. I think the last Macs to have a PowerPC logo were the beige G3's.

Yeap your right and who was in charge during those years... That was Apple's feeble attempt at out marketing the Intel and the Pentium marketing machine.

[Randall]

Is this going to be a new age where Apple and PC users get along? Because at least they will be able to agree on one thing, the new intel processors are going to be very nice, and common among all computer users. It will be interresting to see if Mr. Jobs will try to spin the new intel hardware as superior to PCs, because actually the PCs will get the same chip. :p

[Seasought]

Is this going to be a new age where Apple and PC users get along? Because at least they will be able to agree on one thing, the new intel processors are going to be very nice, and common among all computer users. It will be interresting to see if Mr. Jobs will try to spin the new intel hardware as superior to PCs, because actually the PCs will get the same chip. :p

Perhaps it's a tactic to gain allies in the great crusade against Microsoft.

Or maybe it's just good business. :D

[Peace]

Perhaps it's a tactic to gain allies in the great crusade against Microsoft.

Or maybe it's just good business. :D

Perhaps Apple will have a different type of chipset enabling Jobs to say Apple has the best PC.

[maya]

Sounds to me like Otellini and Jobs are making smart moves.

I'd buy APPL and dump MSFT...

I would buy both.

Remember Microsoft still hold the corporate server market. ;)

It will take a while for Apple to make headway in that market. :(

"Cheaper" I hope is not referring to it's Quality Control on Apple and Intel part. ;)

[Maestro64]

Perhaps it's a tactic to gain allies in the great crusade against Microsoft.

Or maybe it's just good business. :D

This could very well be the case, I am not sure if the writing is on the wall, but M$ could be on the way down. They have not had any big successes lately and many people are moving in on them. This could be a hedge your bets for Intel.

[maya]

Perhaps Apple will have a different type of chipset enabling Jobs to say Apple has the best PC.

A while back Apple was thinking of changing the startup chime on its computers. Maybe they will use a Intel and Apple mixed chime. :o

[Randall]

Perhaps Apple will have a different type of chipset enabling Jobs to say Apple has the best PC.Any hardware differences besides the CPU would be a stretch to claim superiority. After all the CPU is the most important part of the hardware. I think Apple and Mr. Jobs should spin their software as being superior, since it is. And that along with the sexy look and quality control can be where they have the edge over PCs.

[maya]

This could very well be the case, I am not sure if the writing is on the wall, but M$ could be on the way down. They have not had any big successes lately and many people are moving in on them. This could be a hedge your bets for Intel.

You mean "MOMS" was not a success. :eek: ;) :D

[Randall]

I while back Apple was thinking of changing the startup chime on its computers. Maybe they will use a Intel and Apple mixed chime. :oOh no. not that da-di-da-do stupid intel chime that they use in all of the commercials. Any startup noise besides that please. :rolleyes:

[Randall]

This could very well be the case, I am not sure if the writing is on the wall, but M$ could be on the way down. They have not had any big successes lately and many people are moving in on them. This could be a hedge your bets for Intel.Oh no question that intel's future is locked in at this point. Let's just hope for the continued succeess of AMD so that there is a natural driving force motivating intel to innovate.

[Peace]

Any hardware differences besides the CPU would be a stretch to claim superiority. After all the CPU is the most important part of the hardware. I think Apple and Mr. Jobs should spin their software as being superior, since it is. And that along with the sexy look and quality control can be where they have the edge over PCs.

True..True..But I was referring to 802.11n and firewirewireless..;)

[pherplexed]

what makes an Apple is not the fact of the processor inside, look how many processor Apple has gone through over the yrs, 68K, 020, 030, 040, PPC 601, 602, 603, G3, G4, G5, and for the most part Apple never really advertised on the computer
Om...for the past like 5 years or so, Apple computers have gotten their name from what hardware is inside. Remember? powermac G3, powermac G4, powermac G5. So i think it's safe to say that yes..Apple DOES advertise what's inside...very heavily.

[kirk26]

I wish Mr. Otellini would say "At Intel, we are happy to showcase our products with a real OS" rather than mentioned something about lower-power products. It sounds like lower-power means Powerless Mac to the newbie or hardcore PowerPC fanboy. I know they can't say anything bad about Microsoft because they are major customer.

I agree with the post earlier. Apple stock will most likely go up with the increase publicity. I predict a stock split by Feb 2006.

Funny, I thought you said lower-power products you meant Linsux.

[Randall]

True..True..But I was referring to 802.11n and firewirewireless..;)Yeah that's a good point. FireWireless is a very interresting concept, seeing as how (at least in my experience) that the majority of FW400 hardware is 6-pin (external Hard Drives etc.) and as such, they utilize the built in power in pins 5 and 6. That said, we all know that there is no such thing as wireless power, so these devices would have to have an alternate power source in order to utilize FireWire wireless or whatever it's called. Only the 4-pin FW400 stuff will be able to use this new technology.

[maya]

Yeah that's a good point. FireWireless is a very interresting concept, seeing as how (at least in my experience) that the majority of FW400 hardware is 6-pin (external Hard Drives etc.) and as such, they utilize the built in power in pins 5 and 6. That said, we all know that there is no such thing as wireless power, so these devices would have to have an alternate power source in order to utilize FireWire wireless or whatever it's called. Only the 4-pin FW400 stuff will be able to use this new technology.

FireWire-less 400 is essentially for networking purposes. And we all know that wireless products require some form of recharging or obtaining power. :)

FYI, my external HDD has a 6/6 pin, however it also uses a power brick. ;)

6/6 pin is mainly used for mobile devices, for example: iPod, travel HDD, etc...

[~Shard~]

Here ya go....

[Peace]

Here ya go....

As I said in a different topic...

You read it here first!!

Come next December look to see "10,000,000 Leopards Leaping" as a slogan.

[hmmfe]

I find the first statement in that article interesting " the world largest chip manufacture" this is not necessaryly true, for people in the industry it is know that IBM is still the largest foundary of chips in the world. Howevery most of those chips are not sold in the open market IBM uses them internally.

I think you are mixing terms here. A chip foundry is a company with a chip manufacturing facility (a fab) that will contract it's services to a fabless IC design company (e.g. Transmeta). In this sense, IBM is the largest - at least in the US last i checked. TSMC and other overseas foundries are much larger though.

Intel's foundry business is a small part of it's overall business. So, it is not the largest foundry in the world. Intel is, however, the largest manufacturer of chips in the world - by a wide margin.

[Norse Son]

... I do not believe Apple or Jobs will ever allow the Intel logo to grace the outside of the computer... it is completely void of goddie logos. they have the Apple logo and the name of the product..., look how many processor Apple has gone through over the yrs, 68K, 020, 030, 040, PPC 601, 602, 603, G3, G4, G5, and for the most part Apple never really advertised on the computer what was inside.

If the logo shows up I would be very surprised... but Apple does not need Intel's advertising dollars they already spends $100's millions on advertising aready.
I could see it on the box, perhaps, but once you open that to take out your shiny new Mac w/Intel, I doubt you'd see Intel mentioned... Maybe on the back or bottom, where it lists the serial & model #s?

Also, a slight correction: I don't recall Apple using the PPC 602 - maybe I'm wrong; I thought it was strictly for the embedded market... hmm... But you did leave out the PPC 604, which was in the PowerMac 9600 series, I believe.

And with regards to Apple not needing the "Intel Inside" marketing dollars, because "they already spends $100's millions on advertising"... Well, other than in magazines, I haven't seen any Apple ads on TV since the humorous "bunnyman" days. In fact, the only non-static (i.e.: "moving images") ads I've seen from Apple in the past 6-7 years have been for the iPod + iTunes.

But now Apple is set to "swim in the big kids' pool" with the Intel switch, so they would be wise to put some of those Intel dollars to good use pushing the advantages of MacOS X versus Windows. Especially since they'll be running on virtually the same hardware.

[Cinch]

Of interest: Toward the end of the article, Kim the chief marketing guy for Intel pointed out that the Viiv chip will be on computers with other operating systems e.g. Linux or OSX. I think the Mac Mini is one such computer.

Regarding branding and the union of Intel and Apple, Apple is selling a lifestyle. They are not selling computers with mail in rebate like Dell (dear god).

Cinch

[Seasought]

But now Apple is set to "swim in the big kids' pool" with the Intel switch, so they would be wise to put some of those Intel dollars to good use pushing the advantages of MacOS X versus Windows. Especially since they'll be running on virtually the same hardware.

Do you see Apple starting to really push itself with regard to advertising? I've had a difficult time figuring out what Apple's theme is concerning its business ideology. I've read that they "don't compete" and just make quality products, but that just sounds like smoke and mirrors to me.

What is the idea behind them? Is it a sort of "we make products that speak for themselves" sort of a thing, or are they just very, very private about what they do?

In short, they're different than the majority and I'm just trying to figure out what their angle is exactly. All opinions are welcome of course.

[mdavey]

Apple is selling a lifestyle.

Well, Apple only delivered me a Mac mini before closing my order as fulfilled. So, I am still without a life and style :(

[mdavey]

In short, they're different than the majority and I'm just trying to figure out what their angle is exactly.

I suspect that in the last ten years or so, Apple have seen their Macintosh business as niche providers: supplying a premium product to a small, close-nit and dedicated type of consumer.

In those conditions, it doesn't make sense to use untargeted advertising campaigns such as mass-media (TV, newspapers, radio, etc.) as there won't be a good fit between actual recipients of your marketing message and those you want to target (those that are pre-disposed to buying your product).

It makes more sense to use guerrilla and viral marketing such as referral schemes, group incentives (discounts for teachers, stundents, health workers, etc), adverts in specialist publications, roadshows, product placement (giving products to TV shows and film companies, etc) and so on.

If Apple does start to advertise its Macintosh products more, I would expect to see one of two things:

# Apple placing many more banner adverts, but for Machintosh. Particularly on popular sites such as Slashdot, microsites for TV and Film where they already have product placement (such as the Spooks BBC TV series*), and general technology or current affairs sites like BBC News, CNN and C|Net.

or

# Apple bringing out new product lines that sit in the gap between iPod and Macintosh (such as the oft-mentioned Home Theater / Media Center market) and advertising those heavily, continuing to leave Macintosh with its current Marketing plan.


* Okay, bad example - neither BBC nor Kudos currently offer advertising space on their sites - but Apple could advertise on A&E (http://www.aetv.com/mi5/) if they wanted.

[xDANx]

I wish Mr. Otellini would say "At Intel, we are happy to showcase our products with a real OS" rather than mentioned something about lower-power products. It sounds like lower-power means Powerless Mac to the newbie or hardcore PowerPC fanboy. I know they can't say anything bad about Microsoft because they are major customer.

Apart from the Xbox and a few input devices, Microsoft makes software. They'd be happy if someone figured out how to run Windows on a toaster (giving new meaning to the term 'crash and burn'). While Intel and Microsoft have an important relationship, Microsoft is not a customer of Intel's in the same way that Apple will be. As long as Dell and HP ship computers will Intel processors and Windows preinstalled it's business as usual. Otellini has lots of room to talk about Intel processors running OS X without stepping (very hard) on any toes. Microsoft won't shut up about 'choice' as a thinly veiled criticism of Apple...it's about time the tables were turned.

[centauratlas]

What I am curious about is why the Apple Store is updating now (world-wide it looks like). Probably nothing, though.

[hulugu]

That comfort only comes from being a Mac user, I've found. From an outsider's perspective the prices seem dramatically over-priced and I think some of the Mac criticism stems from this. Now, if the critics had the opportunity to sit down and use a Mac for a month I'm sure their tone would change.

I love people who criticize something based not on real world experience, but on some small data set like price. Anyone who uses price as their only reason why not to buy a Mac is an idiot. People have no sense of value versus cost and they're judgemental to a fault. We could use the reverse psychology and say that any computer under 1000 is a total pile, but that also would be incorrect.
The mistake is comparing Apple to Dell (or homebuilt machines) which is always the critics' primary judgement.

[BRLawyer]

Apart from the Xbox and a few input devices, Microsoft makes software. They'd be happy if someone figured out how to run Windows on a toaster (giving new meaning to the term 'crash and burn'). While Intel and Microsoft have an important relationship, Microsoft is not a customer of Intel's in the same way that Apple will be. As long as Dell and HP ship computers will Intel processors and Windows preinstalled it's business as usual. Otellini has lots of room to talk about Intel processors running OS X without stepping (very hard) on any toes. Microsoft won't shut up about 'choice' as a thinly veiled criticism of Apple...it's about time the tables were turned.

True, but the interesting thing to see is how the powerplay has changed when compared to the last years. Apple is back in the prime league of hardware/software makers, and this counts a lot for Intel.

The whole Apple philosophy has also shifted from "we're closed, therefore we are the best" to "we are the best, therefore we are open"; Apple is no longer considered a simple rogue pirate on the seas, but an avant-garde titan player in the realm of computers...

MS has different allies and priorities now, mainly in those that use Winblows as their main OS (Dull, HP and few others) and IBM as a supplier to XBox chips. And this is because Winblows runs on both Intel and AMD chips, thus making MS less dependent on Intel (yet a very important one, of course). It's still business as usual, but the underlying relationships between MS and Intel are not that strong anymore.

Apple will be able to chip in with the most powerful and best-designed laptops ever, along with the most powerful desktops which it already has (no, NO other PC is as powerful as the QuadCore for now)...add to that the best OS in town, and we're all set for the best years ever for the company in 2006/2007.

[kcmac]

The thing that still stands out to me the most in that article and what Intel said at the Developers conference/keynote is

"At the end of the day, we live to sell chips. First and foremost, it's market-expanding for us. Secondly, as I said at the developers' forum, the thing that Apple really brings to the Intel family of customers is their innovation. They [have an] ability to not just mix hardware and software, which is unique, but also to drop software upgrades rather frequently to take advantage of hardware changes."

Intel won't have to wait around for the cheapo, lemming-like PC market anymore. Apple always pushes the edges and is much more nimble than MS and the PC box makers will ever be at forging ahead and swiftly because of their vertical integration of hardware and software.

I think it will be very interesting to see just how unsettling this all is to the PC box makers if Apple is more able to use some new Intel stuff that either MS or the box makers are just not able to take advantage of as quickly or if ever.

I picture some screaming and squirming and more Michael Dell comments about how he would love to put OS X on his machines in the next year.

[Peace]

What I am curious about is why the Apple Store is updating now (world-wide it looks like). Probably nothing, though.

Stores up in the USA..It does show shipping time for the macs now at 1-2 business days but thats probably due to the holidays

[Norse Son]

Seeing the CPUs listed that Apple has used over the years, you can see the ones which made it into laptops (and, yes, I am leaving out that "luggable" Mac Portable monstrousity)...

Remember back when the first true Apple laptop had the 68030? And then the waiting for the '040 version began, but it was too much of a thermal challenge... Then Apple switched to the PPC 601, followed by a wait for the PPC 603 to make it into laptops - the PPC 604 was too power hungry & hot... And when the G3 came out, again we waited for the mobile version... Ditto for the G4 to shrink enough for a laptop... But then the longest, most frustrating wait of all - which happened to be the most pointless - the PowerBook G5...

Well, in a couple of weeks we begin the next chapter - this time we won't have to look in envy at the desktop Macs (or PC laptops), either.

My lemon of a Pismo with its uncanny ability to kill DVD-ROM drives desparately needs to be "put out of its misery"...

[Seasought]

Intel won't have to wait around for the cheapo, lemming-like PC market anymore. Apple always pushes the edges and is much more nimble than MS and the PC box makers will ever be at forging ahead and swiftly because of their vertical integration of hardware and software.

This raises another question of mine: how much of Apple's success, innovation and quality derives from Jobs, or what is Apple's success really derived from with regard to the people that are behind the scenes at Apple?

[kenaustus]

The story was interesting because it shows how Intel is moving away from the traditional WinTel mindset. Google and Apple are two good examples that show there is a crack developing between Intel and MS. That's basically a good thing.

In terms of Intel's ability to deliver for Apple I believe it will be far better than Apple has experienced from either Moto or IBM. Will rev a be perfect? About as perfect as any other rev a from Apple, but Apple will take care of the problems that show up.

Will the new Mactels be cheaper? Good question, but before you start thinking of super cheap you need to remember that Apple will continue to maintain their gross margin of around 28%. It's that gm that feeds the half a billion in R&D each year. Also, if Apple cuts that gm you can expect the Street to be unhappy and Apple stock to drop.

It's odd that people worry about "The Sticker". If it adds a ton of advertising & promotion dollars to Apple's budget it will be added to the Macs. It will take 30 seconds after you take your new Mac out of the box to get rid of it and the first 27 seconds you'll just be looking at your new Mac in wonder.

[Maestro64]

I think you are mixing terms here. A chip foundry is a company with a chip manufacturing facility (a fab) that will contract it's services to a fabless IC design company (e.g. Transmeta). In this sense, IBM is the largest - at least in the US last i checked. TSMC and other overseas foundries are much larger though.

Intel's foundry business is a small part of it's overall business. So, it is not the largest foundry in the world. Intel is, however, the largest manufacturer of chips in the world - by a wide margin.

I am very familiar with TSMC and they are a true foundary and that is all they do and they make chips for all the fabless companies and then some. Company like Intel and IBM have both the Foundry and Packaging side and as it stand right not IBM the largest at both. Like I said most all the chips they make go into thier own products. They still make mainframes believe it or not, they are call larger servers today. These things come with 8 terrabits of systems memory and IBM is the largest Memory manufacture in the world, they just do not share their product.

Because they do not sell their chips they are not seen on the competitive market as the largest.

[m-dogg]

Oh no. not that da-di-da-do stupid intel chime that they use in all of the commercials. Any startup noise besides that please. :rolleyes:

I've never heard a PC start with that, so I doubt a Mac ever would.
The sound PC's make on startup is a Windows chime, not an Intel chime...

[hulugu]

Do you see Apple starting to really push itself with regard to advertising? I've had a difficult time figuring out what Apple's theme is concerning its business ideology. I've read that they "don't compete" and just make quality products, but that just sounds like smoke and mirrors to me.

What is the idea behind them? Is it a sort of "we make products that speak for themselves" sort of a thing, or are they just very, very private about what they do?

In short, they're different than the majority and I'm just trying to figure out what their angle is exactly. All opinions are welcome of course.

They have a very targeted sales pitch for the Macs mostly surrounding magazine ads, but more than that, I don't think it really exists. In some ways, I think Apple is too proud to advertise—although the iPod gets its own spotlight—and wants its products to sell themselves. I also think Apple see the Apple Stores as a kind of advertisement, which is very effective once the customer gets into the store. Really, I'll be surprised if there isn't some kind of major push once the Intel-chipped machines are ready for primetime.

[Norse Son]

Do you see Apple starting to really push itself with regard to advertising? I've had a difficult time figuring out what Apple's theme is concerning its business ideology...

What is the idea behind them? Is it a sort of "we make products that speak for themselves" sort of a thing, or are they just very, very private about what they do?

In short, they're different than the majority and I'm just trying to figure out what their angle is exactly. All opinions are welcome of course.
The major difference is in the OS, and of the (seemingly) "seamless vertical integration" of hardware, OS & software (iLife, FCP, iTunes, etc.).

The greatest advantage going forward will be the stability and rich feature-set that MacOS X already offers, and which Microsoft has woefully tried to emulate. But with Apple constantly upgrading that experience these last 5 years, while Microsoft struggles in the cesspool of code that comprises LongSNORE... Apple could use those Intel marketing dollars to advertise that benefit... And I wouldn't be surprised if they're cooking up a worthy sequal to the infamous "1984" ad - except this time it cannot rest solely on imagery and "esoterica" (is that a word?)... This time the TV ads need to speak of real people and real time/cost/productivity benefits of switching to MacOS X on Intel.

[Maestro64]

IAlso, a slight correction: I don't recall Apple using the PPC 602 - maybe I'm wrong; I thought it was strictly for the embedded market... hmm... But you did leave out the PPC 604, which was in the PowerMac 9600 series, I believe.
I believe you are correct, I could not remember which of the 6xx series was not actually used by Apple, I was pulling from memory.

I also know at one point there was suppose to be a 050 chip but it was canned when the deal was struck for the PPC. Also, there was a road map for a 605, 606, 607, but those must have been canned when the G series came along. I Personally think the G series is actually the 6xx series they just renamed them for ease of marketing the new chips.

[Peace]

Apple switching to Intel is more than enough advertising..
The whole computer world knows about the switch and will be eyeballing the first MacIntel..

[hulugu]

This raises another question of mine: how much of Apple's success, innovation and quality derives from Jobs, or what is Apple's success really derived from with regard to the people that are behind the scenes at Apple?

Ignoring that Jobs started the company, his return brought NeXT which begat OSX. Furthermore, Jobs was able to make the deals with media moguls that allowed the iTMS to exist. Jobs pushed for the Mac and the iPod as well. Now with that stated, the design has come from Jonathan Ives, while Apple's technological innovations have come from the legions of engineers who work there. Jobs is very good at demanding a certain thing, but the actual quality of design, the actual code and metal is from many more.

[kcmac]

Ignoring that Jobs started the company, his return brought NeXT which begat OSX. Furthermore, Jobs was able to make the deals with media moguls that allowed the iTMS to exist. Jobs pushed for the Mac and the iPod as well. Now with that stated, the design has come from Jonathan Ives, while Apple's technological innovations have come from the legions of engineers who work there. Jobs is very good at demanding a certain thing, but the actual quality of design, the actual code and metal is from many more.
Yes. Jobs provides strong leadership, vision and hollywood like charisma that has kept the media focused on Apple. Seems to me that in the keynotes, he always thanks the teams of people that have made what he is displaying successful. It is silly to think that one man could be responsible for all this success.

[Maestro64]

Om...for the past like 5 years or so, Apple computers have gotten their name from what hardware is inside. Remember? powermac G3, powermac G4, powermac G5. So i think it's safe to say that yes..Apple DOES advertise what's inside...very heavily.

This is about half true as is my statement above. They do call the machine by what we know as the processor inside. But I am not sure if it is all about the processor. The G means Generation, so the G3 was the 3rd generation of the PPC archectures and the archecture is more then the PPC chip inside there is a lot more that goes into it than just the PPC. I think the G name came about to get rid of the old PPC 6xx name because it sound too much like the X86 and it more of the "me too" idea that Apple has been trying to get away from and the old processor wars. I know some machine did show the G# in the name but if you look at the new PowerMac "G5" it does not say "G5" on the case. nor does it say IBM G5 inside.

I personally think they did a nice job of using the "G#" to help people distinguish the next generating in product offering verse trying to figure out what is new about it.

As we all know Apple has always about the entire experience (except for those mid 90 yrs) and not about the bits and bytes and Mhz and Ghz which the geeks of the world have made computers all about. This is changing, Apple is changing the perception back to what it use to be the total experience and not whether you have the fastest machine.

It will be interesting to see if Apple up or down plays what processor exists in the systems going forward and see if it all become hardward agnostic and its about the user experience and not who makes what part.

[Marx55]

I hope for more sales!!! Since that will help all the stock I own.

But I do not believe Apple or Jobs will ever allow the Intel logo to grace the outside of the computer. If you look at every single apple computer it is completely void of goddie logos. they have the Apple logo and the name of the product and what makes an Apple is not the fact of the processor inside, look how many processor Apple has gone through over the yrs, 68K, 020, 030, 040, PPC 601, 602, 603, G3, G4, G5, and for the most part Apple never really advertised on the computer what was inside.

If the logo shows up I would be very surprised and all you can say is Jobs sold out his principles. Oh, you bet Intel would like that logo on there and you can bet it was part of the negotiations, but Apple does not need Intel's advertising dollars they already spends $100's millions on advertising aready.

It is not just the Intel's advertising dollars. It is mainly that 95% of market share out there (read hundreds of millions of people) will feel much more confident and will be much more likely to purchase such Mactel if it has the Intel sticker. And much, much, much more likely they will purchase such Mactel if it boots natively also as Windows and Linux. And even better with the real-time Intel virtualization technology to switch between OSes. NO OTHER COMPUTER COULD DO IT. That could boost Mac market share to the two-digit world and beyond! THAT IS THE REAL DEAL!!! And once they taste Mac OS X, they will not return to Windows or Linux... Apple would be fool not exploiting such strategic move! And then there is also the possibility to licensing Mac OS X to Dell and HP... The sky is the limit...

[Maestro64]

Do you see Apple starting to really push itself with regard to advertising? I've had a difficult time figuring out what Apple's theme is concerning its business ideology. I've read that they "don't compete" and just make quality products, but that just sounds like smoke and mirrors to me.

What is the idea behind them? Is it a sort of "we make products that speak for themselves" sort of a thing, or are they just very, very private about what they do?

In short, they're different than the majority and I'm just trying to figure out what their angle is exactly. All opinions are welcome of course.

Your right Apple does not compete in the sense as we all know it. Compete means you and the next guy are in the same foot race. The problem with this is there is always someone better willing to try and knock you off the top. So Apple approach is not to compete but to create their own market and make others figure out what race to be in.

There is an old saying, if you build a better mouse trap people will beat your door down to get it. This how Apple thinks, if you have the best product people will want it. For this to work it take a very focus leader with a single minded visions and for years Apple did not have it so they ended up in the foot race.

Here is another fact about their strategy which is not talked about much. Apple knew this a long time ago, people who have a very strong childhood memory about something tend to use those memories in the future to make decission. Back in the 80's apple practically gave computers to schools and colleges because they knew this and these same people would then choose a Mac in their future. This was beginning to pay off when the company went south. Apple is doing it again with the ipod. Kids ipod experience are so great right now they most likely will buy Apple in the future unless Apple faulters again.

So their advertising is very subtle and it about creating a memorable life experience.

[lorenz]

Intel had never made good procesor (never ever) . The Motorola, IBM and also AMD had made always x-times faster processors.
Don´t belive that Pentium M and Core Duo is really so fast and consumes so less power in fast mode (they are only fast on paper tests).




I don´t want Mercedes with Honda motor inside.

[Randall]

I've never heard a PC start with that, so I doubt a Mac ever would.
The sound PC's make on startup is a Windows chime, not an Intel chime...When the harware ROM is loaded it doesn't chime, it makes the old-skool DOS beep from an internal speaker. In fact, some of the newer PCs don't even make the sound, since they are sans internal speaker. The chime for the OS is the typical Windows chime, which must be what you're referring to.

[Norse Son]

Apple switching to Intel is more than enough advertising..
The whole computer world knows about the switch and will be eyeballing the first MacIntel..
Okay, maybe I'm nitpicking, but outside of the industry most people have limited knowledge of Apple's Mac. And how many of these millions of people that are buying the latest iPod because, "Their kid just has to have one for XMas, or their friends will think they're losers" even know that Apple makes computers... Do they have to rely upon the Apple Stores - the nearest one to me is through 20-30 minutes of traffic... And you won't find them at Best Buy or Circuit City...

So, maybe the whole computer world does know about Apple's iPod/iTMS success, and of the impending switch to Intel CPUs, but the general public is "generally" clueless. And that's not necessarily Apple's fault, but they've done next to nothing to change the public's perception.

All their marketing efforts seem to revolve around the iPod + iTMS, while they've sat back (almost) expecting that the "iPod Halo Effect" will naturally draw people by the millions to their nearest Apple Store where they will be mesmerized by the shiny Macs and plunk down their hard earned coin to join the cult...

The so-called "halo effect" is one of the few reasons people even come to find out that Apple: a) still makes computers and/or b) that they make them at all... The only other place people may have seen a lot of Macs was in a public school - back when Apple still commanded as much as 30% of that market...

So, no, I don't think Apple has made any serious effort to market the Mac to "the world at large". And, seeing as how a majority of their revenues STILL come from selling MacOS X hardware & software, that attitude needs to change with this Intel transition.

[Randall]

Intel had never made good procesor (never ever) . The Motorola, IBM and also AMD had made always x-times faster processors.
Don´t belive that Pentium M and Core Duo is really so fast and consumes so less power in fast mode (they are only fast on paper tests).




I don´t want Mercedes with Honda motor inside.What?!? The G4 is an antique. I think I saw one in a museum once. You better believe that core duo will drop-kick your G4 into oblivion. I guarantee you it's faster then the G4, and not just in clock speed either, but in raw computing power.

[~Shard~]

What?!? The G4 is an antique. I think I saw one in a museum once.

Hey watch it - I'm typing up this reply thanks to my G4 and it works like a dream! :p ;)

I agree though, the new Intel processors will easily out-perform the G4. :)

[Randall]

Will the new Mactels be cheaper? Good question, but before you start thinking of super cheap you need to remember that Apple will continue to maintain their gross margin of around 28%. It's that gm that feeds the half a billion in R&D each year. Also, if Apple cuts that gm you can expect the Street to be unhappy and Apple stock to drop.Why would Apple continue to maintain this type of margin (besides for greed and to make shareholders happy)? I'm sure that Apple has some sort of deal worked out with Intel that they pay for some R&D, but it shouldn't nearly be as much as it was for them to pay IBM, since intel is already collecting from PC manufacturers for R&D. Besides the fact that Intel will be driven by it's competition (read: AMD) to do it's own R&D. Therefore, Apple can merely come along for the ride as far as intel innovation is concerned. Apple can just ride the intel roadmap to success.

[Randall]

Hey watch it - I'm typing up this reply thanks to my G4 and it works like a dream! :p ;)

I agree though, the new Intel processors will easily out-perform the G4. :)Heh. I was just joking around. I was mostly responding to that guy saying that Intel has never come out with a good processor ever. The fact is the Core Duo should easily be the best notebook processor ever made. I am very excited. :)

[~Shard~]

Heh. I was just joking around. I was mostly responding to that guy saying that Intel has never come out with a good processor ever. The fact is the Core Duo should easily be the best notebook processor ever made. I am very excited. :)

I know, it's all good. :)

And I definitely agree with you, I'm quite excited to see what the Apple portable line looks like a year from now. :cool:

[jlewis2k1]

you know for them to possible make a whisper quiet computer or zen quiet they could potentially put in a thin layer of this material that blocks out noise and only have the vents open to vent the hot air out. just an idea.

[jlewis2k1]

I know, it's all good. :)

And I definitely agree with you, I'm quite excited to see what the Apple portable line looks like a year from now. :cool:

apple will have a 1/4 inch thick powerbooks and 1/3 inch thick iBooks by MWSF 2007

[lorenz]

What?!? The G4 is an antique. I think I saw one in a museum once. You better believe that core duo will drock-kick your G4 into oblivion. I guarantee you it's faster then the G4, and not just in clock speed either, but in raw computing power.

Sure, but with battery it will be one hour of top perfomance +heat blower
and with battery performance you will have one core shut off and the other one will run on 600Mhz and you will wonder why the hell you must wait for every thing to open . I alredy have Intel in company laptop: IBM 2Ghz Pent.M and I tell you its sucks (-processor)

[EricNau]

Glad to hear that intel sees Apple as such an important company...maybe others will start to also.

[Soulivar]

I'm not yet convinced about the intel chips. I say, if you're in the market for a new mac, but it now. Tried, tested and true...the last generation of "pure" mac. Let the people with money to burn fork out the $krilla for the new macs and they can be the lab rats for this technical experiment. I'm telling you now, the latest versions of the current models (non-intel based) are going to be collectors items. They will hold their value much more than you think. Let them work out the bugs with the new intel chips and then buy a new mac once they've figured it all out. I'm no tech genius, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that there is alot of money at stake with intel involved. The bottom line for them is "cheaper", not better. If better was the way the real world worked, macs would outsell PCs. It's all a marketing scheme. I'm skeptical about the clock speeds and actual performance on the new chips. I'll have to see it to believe it so i'd wait if you wanna buy a new mac with the intel chip. Just my opinion. Hopefully the transition will work out in the end, otherwise this is the end of an era. :confused: Happy new year!!!:D

[nsjoker]

question. what is the difference b/w core duo and centrino duo?? :confused:

[AidenShaw]

question. what is the difference b/w core duo and centrino duo?? :confused:
Centrino is "Core Duo" + Intel 9xx chipset + Intel wireless card.

[Marx55]

I'm not yet convinced about the intel chips. I say, if you're in the market for a new mac, but it now. Tried, tested and true...the last generation of "pure" mac. Let the people with money to burn fork out the $krilla for the new macs and they can be the lab rats for this technical experiment. I'm telling you now, the latest versions of the current models (non-intel based) are going to be collectors items. They will hold their value much more than you think. Let them work out the bugs with the new intel chips and then buy a new mac once they've figured it all out. I'm no tech genius, but it doesn't take a genius to realize that there is alot of money at stake with intel involved. The bottom line for them is "cheaper", not better. If better was the way the real world worked, macs would outsell PCs. It's all a marketing scheme. I'm skeptical about the clock speeds and actual performance on the new chips. I'll have to see it to believe it so i'd wait if you wanna buy a new mac with the intel chip. Just my opinion. Hopefully the transition will work out in the end, otherwise this is the end of an era. :confused: Happy new year!!!:D

Do not worry. Already tested and works GREAT! Even on generic PCs out there!

[Randall]

question. what is the difference b/w core duo and centrino duo?? :confused:All Centrino is is a brand name from Intel that couples the Pentium M (now called Core Duo) with intel's 802.11 wireless networking chipset, along with the intel pro/wireless mini PCI card, and the Intel 855 chipset. Just think of Centrino Duo as a Core Duo with more of a drain on battery life. :p

[Randall]

Sure, but with battery it will be one hour of top perfomance +heat blower
and with battery performance you will have one core shut off and the other one will run on 600Mhz and you will wonder why the hell you must wait for every thing to open . I alredy have Intel in company laptop: IBM 2Ghz Pent.M and I tell you its sucks (-processor)I don't understand what you're trying to say here. :confused: One hour of top performance and a heat blower? You do realize that the powerbook G4 has a FSB of 167MHz, and the Core Duo will have a FSB of 667MHz right? So exactly how is that gonna be slow?

[Soulivar]

This is what i'm very skeptical about. Intel manufactures CISC (complex instruction set computing) processors, whereas the current mac PowerPC processors are RISC based (reduced instruction set computing). This means a 3 ghz Intel based system will not run any faster than a 1.5 ghz PowerPC based system (it could run slower). Also, the current RISC processors have a superior floating point. Doesn't anybody else think the Intel element is a big scam that could possibly ruin a good thing apple's got going right now? Am i off base here or is there some magic processor being made by Intel that will do the same job as efficiently as the power pc's? Those CISC processors, even if they go with a 64 bit version will be inferior to the power pc RISC ones currently utilized by apple!! BUY YOUR MACs now if you are in the market for a new one!! more info on risc vs. cisc:
http://cse.stanford.edu/class/sophomore-college/projects-00/risc/risccisc/

[Randall]

This means a 3 ghz Intel based system will not run any faster than a 1.5 ghz PowerPC based system (it could run slower). That is complete and utter ********. CISC and RISC architectures are important to the machine assembly code. The number of instructions that you can run per clock cycle is what makes for powerful computing. The architecture doesn't matter. It's the machine interpreter and compiler efficency that writes the assembly so the CPU can execute is important, not the architecture itself.

[nsjoker]

All Centrino is is a brand name from Intel that couples the Pentium M (now called Core Duo) with intel's 802.11 wireless networking chipset, along with the intel pro/wireless mini PCI card, and the Intel 855 chipset. Just think of Centrino Duo as a Core Duo with more of a drain on battery life. :p

hmm cool, thanks. which one will apple use?? the core duo or centrino duo 'cos wouldn't they want their AE card in there rather than the intel one??

[Randall]

hmm cool, thanks. which one will apple use?? the core duo or centrino duo 'cos wouldn't they want their AE card in there rather than the intel one??Your guess is as good as mine as to which Apple will use. They both have their advantages. It all depends on what Apple wants to do. They both will have the same amount of processing power, so I'm not too worried about it. :cool:

[lorenz]

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. :confused: One hour of top performance and a heat blower? You do realize that the powerbook G4 has a FSB of 167MHz, and the Core Duo will have a FSB of 667MHz right? So exactly how is that gonna be slow?

Have you maybe heard of Intel SpeedStep Technology ?
http://support.intel.com/support/processors/mobile/pentiumiii/sb/CS-007509.htm

You will have 667Mhz Fsb(full cpu speed) but only in performance mode but in batery performance it goes down (Fsb and CPU spped) to save battery.Are you really thinking that you can have 4x times higher FSB and CPU speed with same or less power consumtion. And higher FSB doesn´t automaticly means faster computer, there is lot of other important components that must be also fast and all this componets are consuming with increasing speed , more power.

[Peace]

My Dev Kit runs better than the G4..
So I'm guessing Mac users are in for a really good surprise;)

This post in no way means anything specific.It is meant purely as an opinion and does not break the NDA

[Wonder Boy]

'Smaller, cheaper, cooler' sounds like a great direction for Apple's computers. They allready lead the rest of the PC industry in design but if they can make improvements then why not? Ultimately I would like to see fans disappear from computers so that Cube-like silence could be achieved again.

smaller- sure why not? could be an issue with the imac and 'books (ie who really wants a smaller screen?) does the mac mini need to be smaller? not to me. now the g5 tower. there's a piece that can be downsized.

cheaper- who doesn't want this?

cooler- laptops need this the most. but we've been screaming that for years.
could intel be the answer?

[BRLawyer]

I believe you are correct, I could not remember which of the 6xx series was not actually used by Apple, I was pulling from memory.

I also know at one point there was suppose to be a 050 chip but it was canned when the deal was struck for the PPC. Also, there was a road map for a 605, 606, 607, but those must have been canned when the G series came along. I Personally think the G series is actually the 6xx series they just renamed them for ease of marketing the new chips.

Info for you:

Apple never used the 602...it used the 601, 603, 603e, 603ev, 604 and 604e...there were plans for a 620, but it turned out more or less as the G3.

There was never a 050, but rather a 060, which showed in some prototypes for accel. boards from Daystar and some later Amiga models...and that's all.

[Alecto]

There is a video of "Yonah" and a centrino playing Quake 4 against eachother. Needless to say "Yonah" is a significant improvement.

http://www.file1145y.com/

[thejadedmonkey]

What we all have to be concerned about here is what will happen to the quality and reliability of the systems. No one can argue that Apple has the highest quality of all systems manufacturers out there with a few except of lemons that Apple has made I the past.

This is by no means an accident on Apple's part. Part of the reason we all pay so much more for an Apple is becuase of the amount of testing, qualification and attention to details Apple puts in to every product. Intel does not have the same reputation. I concerned that these lower end products being mentioned here will fall well short of a standard apple products.

Plus with the rumors of the pending new Intel product to be announce with the help of Intel's design center I am afraid we will all get the same crap the PC world has been getting. I do not believe Apple had the bandwith or the time to fully test and qualify an Intel design, plus it so hard to transfer lessons learned from previous designs to a new design group. One of the reasons Apple designs are so good is their design teams have been together so long and they learn from the past.

I think it will be prudent before we all buy to find out who actually did the design, Apple or Intel, personally I stay way from anything that has an intel PCB in it, remember intel is a Chip company not a systems company go with what you do best and stayway from everything else.

I've never had an intel motherboard go south on me...drivers, that's another story, but I expect apple will fix that no sweat.

[geerlingguy]

Well, i'm not an acoustic engineer or anything but if it was making a low enough amount of noise, a bit of trickery could probably dissipate it enough to make it sound as if it was silent, even if it wasn't, right?

Sound cancelling, such as that of the Bose QuietComfort headphones, is not possible without the cancelling device being very near to a person's ears. If you have a speaker near the hard drive putting out the cancelling sound waves, depending on where you and your computer are, the sound may actually be louder than without any cancelling noises.

[LaMerVipere]

People who say Macs are more expensive than comparable PCs are dreaming. Try pricing a Dell laptop with comparable specs & software and you'll see the price literally balloon before your eyes.

[Bonte]

I would buy both.

Remember Microsoft still hold the corporate server market. ;)

It will take a while for Apple to make headway in that market. :(


If MS loses a big part of the consumer market to Apple that stock is going to tank more than it should, last few years MS stock has not moved much because the new markets didn't catch on moneywise. If the x-box starts making money then maybe but i don't see that devision out of the red very soon or ever. :cool:

Last 5 years MSFT stayed between 25-30, its a dead end stock and Microsoft has gotten so big it can only go down. Especially now that they can't abuse there desktop dominance to force themselves into other markets.

[ppnkg]

Plus with the rumors of the pending new Intel product to be announce with the help of Intel's design center I am afraid we will all get the same crap the PC world has been getting. I do not believe Apple had the bandwith or the time to fully test and qualify an Intel design, plus it so hard to transfer lessons learned from previous designs to a new design group.

hmm.., I think if apple are ready to launch new macs in January, they have probably been testing them for quite a while. I have no doubt that we're going to see some solid systems. I wonder however where all this will take apple. I read the article about Intel strategy and it makes perfect sense to me. I sense that what drives the 'platform' strategy is an increasing dissatisfaction with microsoft. I mean, intel feel strong enough to market themselves as innovators, but this simply cannot fly with microsoft. So think intel probably sees more in the partnership with apple than `intel inside'. The question is, how apple think they fit in all this in the long term. Steve hasn't told us enough yet.

[Hugh]

It seems to me that the PowerPC logo appeared on Apple computers for several years after the switch from 68K processors. I think the last Macs to have a PowerPC logo were the beige G3's.

The Performa line had stickers on them. I remember the Performa 600 having all kind of stickers on the bottom of it near the CD-ROM (so did some Mac IIvx and Mac IIvi).

Some new Macs that used the PowerPC did have a PowerPC logo on them.

-Hugh

[Seasought]

Last 5 years MSFT stayed between 25-30, its a dead end stock and Microsoft has gotten so big it can only go down. Especially now that they can't abuse there desktop dominance to force themselves into other markets.

Perhaps this is part of the agenda of the "Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation"; establish a healthcare monopoly in overseas developing countries, integrate Microsoft as part of the healthcare/medical industry and not just computer software.

It doesn't have to be limited to healthcare of course, but the idea came to my mind when I read the article in Time concerning their visits to other countries that didn't have a highly developed system of healthcare.

Maybe I'm going overboard? Too much conspiracy theory? I don't know, sounds like an idea to me.

[bretm]

The Performa line had stickers on them. I remember the Performa 600 having all kind of stickers on the bottom of it near the CD-ROM (so did some Mac IIvx and Mac IIvi).

Some new Macs that used the PowerPC did have a PowerPC logo on them.

-Hugh
Those macs are waaaay before the beige G3 so what's your point. And no, no new macs have the powerpc logo since the beige boxes. iMac? No. Tower? (G3,4,5) no. Powerbook, ibook? No. All designed under SJ.

[Stonecoldcleric]

Maybe I'm going overboard? Too much conspiracy theory? I don't know, sounds like an idea to me.

Hey, I hate the Gateopoly as much as anyone, but using generosity as a pretense for gaining control and power? That's quite a conspiracy. I think too many would call him on it if he bagan to shove MS down their throats.:)

[kiwi-in-uk]

Hey, I hate the Gateopoly as much as anyone, but using generosity as a pretense for gaining control and power? That's quite a conspiracy. I think too many would call him on it if he bagan to shove MS down their throats.:)
Really?
Correct me if my memory is failing, but I seem to recall an impasse between the Indian government and Microsoft over copyright and standardisation on Windows (& other Microsoft products) by the public sector. The impasse disappeared soon after MS established a "research and/or development and/or support centre" in 2002 at a claimed cost of USD400m.
Both parties claimed - at the time - that the "generous investment" was not related to subsequent easing of the Indian posture towards MS.

Other companies and countries do the same thing all the time. Aid to 3rd world countries is quite often tied to purchasing or funding contracts with the donor companies or countries.

This is not to say that the Gates Foundation's altruism is in any way similar. Merely that conditional aid is a well established practice, Microsoft (as against the Gates Foundation) has done this before, and the Gates and Microsoft names are inextricably linked.

edit: and there was a recent announcement of a USD1.7Bn investment in India by Microsoft. Explicitly to produce a version of Windows for India, available in nine languages, to compete with open source software. All couched in altruistic terms. Read about it here (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/07/business/main1103333.shtml). Now I would like to see India and Indians get all the benefits, but wonder about the perpetual "tax" they will pay for the privilege.

[AidenShaw]

...'cos wouldn't they want their AE card in there rather than the intel one??
But if the Intel one is cheaper, uses less power, and has zero R&D cost ????

"Centrino" is a much stronger brand that AE ...

Since this story is about "image" - it looks like Apple will be dropping the "Think Different" mindset and will be embracing "Think Same".

[Sogo]

My Dev Kit runs better than the G4..
So I'm guessing Mac users are in for a really good surprise;)

This post in no way means anything specific.It is meant purely as an opinion and does not break the NDA

Speaking of which, don't you have to send those bad babies back in a day? ;) :p

[Peace]

Speaking of which, don't you have to send those bad babies back in a day? ;) :p

Dec. 31st 2006 ;)

[dguisinger]

I am very familiar with TSMC and they are a true foundary and that is all they do and they make chips for all the fabless companies and then some. Company like Intel and IBM have both the Foundry and Packaging side and as it stand right not IBM the largest at both. Like I said most all the chips they make go into thier own products. They still make mainframes believe it or not, they are call larger servers today. These things come with 8 terrabits of systems memory and IBM is the largest Memory manufacture in the world, they just do not share their product.

Because they do not sell their chips they are not seen on the competitive market as the largest.


Hate to break it to you. Selling a mainframe with a handful of Power processors is a small drop in the bucket compared to :
Intel Processors
Intel Embedded Processors
Intel Network Controllers
Intel Chipsets
Intel Flash
Intel etc

Intel produces many more chips than IBM. IBM now has all 3 console markets, that helps them. But the console market is still very small compared to network hardware, computers, automobiles, IP phones, set top boxes, etc.

Before you jump in and say PPC runs in embedded systems like automobiles and networking gear; its not from IBM, its from Freescale. IBM's share of the embedded market is quite low; most of IBM's PPC cores on the market today are in embedded devices they fab for others, like Xilinx FPGAs; which for the embedded CPU versions are quite often low-volume as well.

IBM is a great Fab.......but they are in no way #1.

Intel still produces 8059 and 8088 microcontrollers; as well as some versions of the 486 for embedded platforms. They just don't shut down their old fabs, you'd be surprised how many chips Intel pumps out.

[dguisinger]

This is what i'm very skeptical about. Intel manufactures CISC (complex instruction set computing) processors, whereas the current mac PowerPC processors are RISC based (reduced instruction set computing). This means a 3 ghz Intel based system will not run any faster than a 1.5 ghz PowerPC based system (it could run slower). Also, the current RISC processors have a superior floating point. Doesn't anybody else think the Intel element is a big scam that could possibly ruin a good thing apple's got going right now? Am i off base here or is there some magic processor being made by Intel that will do the same job as efficiently as the power pc's? Those CISC processors, even if they go with a 64 bit version will be inferior to the power pc RISC ones currently utilized by apple!! BUY YOUR MACs now if you are in the market for a new one!! more info on risc vs. cisc:
http://cse.stanford.edu/class/sophomore-college/projects-00/risc/risccisc/


That used to be important. But as the powerpc has been evolving, it now has nearly as many instructions as an x86 processor. Plus, an x86 processor no longer executes x86 code, it converts it into microcode and executes that code instead; combining / reducing the real number of instructions executed.

The fact is, with the last G5s apple was falling way behind on performance; they couldn't hit the MHz required to compete against Intel machines which keep improving. At the same time, these new Intel processors do even more instructions per cycle, allowing the clock speed to be reduced resulting in less power and head consumption. The new upcoming Intel processors beat the living day out of the G5s in overall performance and in performance per watt.

They may not have good 64 bit support; but 64-bit support is a true waste for all but 1% of the computing market at most. Floating point and vector math is where it matters for science and games; and 32-bit integer is what matters for office/internet applications. 64-bits is used for programs with HUGE amounts of ram.

[strange days]

There is a video of "Yonah" and a centrino playing Quake 4 against eachother. Needless to say "Yonah" is a significant improvement.

http://www.file1145y.com/

nice ! :cool:

[JoeG4]

Intel's new role: Pimp

Apple's new role: Hoe. :D

[bigwig]

That used to be important. But as the powerpc has been evolving, it now has nearly as many instructions as an x86 processor.

RISC vs CISC is about instruction complexity, not instruction count. Plus many x86 instructions aren't merely complex, they're stupid. SIMD instructions that destroy their inputs, for example, so you're forced to execute extraneous load instructions.
Plus, an x86 processor no longer executes x86 code, it converts it into microcode and executes that code instead; combining / reducing the real number of instructions executed.
A CPU with built-in Rosetta isn't my idea of heaven. I'd bet that translation layer is a significant performance hit. The x86 is extremely register-starved, which doesn't help.

[kcmac]

I'm not yet convinced about the intel chips. I say, if you're in the market for a new mac, but it now. Tried, tested and true...the last generation of "pure" mac.
Last "pure" Mac? Good lord.

I know Jobs has banged the marketing drum pretty heavily over the years but what makes Intel more of a devil than IBM or Motorola? The latter of the three pretty much stifled Mac development for years.

If Intel can keep up with their timetable and enthusiasm of having Apple as an innovation partner this vitriole for Intel should be short lived. They certainly can't be any worse. It's easy to understand the skepticism but the other stuff is just a little over the top.

[illegalprelude]

Grow up! --A sticker will not harm your Mac!
are u kidding me? It will burn a whole into my G5 and continue to dig through till burns a whole through my Wall and by tomorrow, CHINA! :p

[AidenShaw]

They may not have good 64 bit support; but 64-bit support is a true waste for all but 1% of the computing market at most.
On what do you base this slight?

And what is "bad 64-bit support", other than what Apple is shipping in Tiger? (and that's bad software support, not a bad ISA)

I haven't noticed anything "not good" about Windows x64 on Intel and AMD 64-bit chips - the entire system is true 64-bit, with a subsystem that transparently runs 32-bit applications.

A CPU with built-in Rosetta isn't my idea of heaven. I'd bet that translation layer is a significant performance hit. The x86 is extremely register-starved, which doesn't help.
Actually, that translation layer is what makes the Pentium (all variants since the Pentium Pro) so freaking fast. Note that the Pentium doesn't have an "instruction cache" or I-cache per se - the instruction cache really stores the translated (or decoded) instruction stream - an "I-cache hit" picks up the already decoded micro-ops.

The micro-engine has many more registers than are visible at the x86 ISA - which helps a lot. Also, x64 (which unfortunately Apple isn't using, since Mac OSx86 abandons 64-bit support) has twice as many 128-bit SSE registers, and nearly three times as many usable integer registers.

Which, going back to the earlier quote, is why x64 is so important in the Intel world. Not because programs need more than 2 GiB of memory space, but because 64-bit code is usually quite a bit faster. (As opposed to PowerPC, where 64-bit code tends to be somewhat slower than 32-bit code.)

The terms CISC and RISC are archaic

[sbrhwkp3]

What we all have to be concerned about here is what will happen to the quality and reliability of the systems. No one can argue that Apple has the highest quality of all systems manufacturers out there with a few except of lemons that Apple has made I the past.

This is by no means an accident on Apple's part. Part of the reason we all pay so much more for an Apple is becuase of the amount of testing, qualification and attention to details Apple puts in to every product. Intel does not have the same reputation. I concerned that these lower end products being mentioned here will fall well short of a standard apple products.

Plus with the rumors of the pending new Intel product to be announce with the help of Intel's design center I am afraid we will all get the same crap the PC world has been getting. I do not believe Apple had the bandwith or the time to fully test and qualify an Intel design, plus it so hard to transfer lessons learned from previous designs to a new design group. One of the reasons Apple designs are so good is their design teams have been together so long and they learn from the past.

I think it will be prudent before we all buy to find out who actually did the design, Apple or Intel, personally I stay way from anything that has an intel PCB in it, remember intel is a Chip company not a systems company go with what you do best and stayway from everything else.


Lest we forget, OS X has been living a dual life the past how many years? Apple has played with intel processors and OS X all this time. I do not see them lowering their standards just because of a switch to intel processors...

[~Shard~]

Lest we forget, OS X has been living a dual life the past how many years? Apple has played with intel processors and OS X all this time. I do not see them lowering their standards just because of a switch to intel processors...

Precisely - Jobs would not have rushed into a transition to Intel, and the fact that OS X has been running on Intel platforms secretly since its inception proves this. Intel is nothing new, in many respects for Apple, and I have every confidence that with such a landmark transition like this, Jobs is going to ensure they do it right - and right from the start. :cool:

[aegisdesign]

I believe you are correct, I could not remember which of the 6xx series was not actually used by Apple, I was pulling from memory.

I also know at one point there was suppose to be a 050 chip but it was canned when the deal was struck for the PPC. Also, there was a road map for a 605, 606, 607, but those must have been canned when the G series came along. I Personally think the G series is actually the 6xx series they just renamed them for ease of marketing the new chips.

No. Totally off base.

Motorola's successor to the 040 was the 68060 which shipped late and initially only at 50Mhz, eventually reaching 66Mhz. Apple never used it as the PowerPC 601 emulating the 040 was almost as fast as the 060 and quickly surpassed it. IIRC the 050 had already been allocated to a chipname by Phillips. 060's shipped in some really expensive Amiga CPU cards but I don't think they ever made it into a production computer. I did have a laser printer with one in at one point.

Back then it was Motorola's policy to ship even number chips as the first architectural change and then odd numbers as what were essentially fixes or cheaper versions. so 68000 was first, 68010 fixed bugs. 68020 was 32bit, 68030 essentially the same but built in MMU. and so on.

The 601 was the first generation PowerPC chip. Generation 2 was the 603/604. G3 was Apple's marketing terminology and not used by Motorola or IBM. Just as Apple gave us 'Velocity Engine' which was cringe worthy.

[aegisdesign]

My Dev Kit runs better than the G4..
So I'm guessing Mac users are in for a really good surprise;)

This post in no way means anything specific.It is meant purely as an opinion and does not break the NDA

ok, but G5s run better than the G4 so that means nothing. Your NDA is probably safe. :)

[AidenShaw]

Actually, that translation layer is what makes the Pentium (all variants since the Pentium Pro) so freaking fast. Note that the Pentium doesn't have an "instruction cache" or I-cache per se - the instruction cache really stores the translated (or decoded) instruction stream - an "I-cache hit" picks up the already decoded micro-ops.
There's another advantage to the u-ops architecture - it eliminates any performance cost involved in supporting legacy instruction sets (16-bit, 32-bit, ...).

The legacy instructions exist only in the decoder, and not in the execution engine. The decoder translates the 16-bit instructions into u-ops, which then are run through the 64-bit execution engine just like any other instructions.

The people clammering for a "legacy-free Apple-only superfast chip" miss the fact that the legacy stuff is a few transistors in a corner of the decoder, and eliminating it would have almost no effect on performance.

The dual-core Xeon powers up as a 16-bit x86 chip, and looks for the 16-bit boot loader. (It's odd to see an 8-core Opteron or Xeon running 16-bit DOS from a floppy....) The boot loader and subsequent initialization code then enables 32-bit or 64-bit mode as requested by the OS.

Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny...

[Uragon]

If Apple + Intel = Synergy.

I don't mind having a sticker "Intel Inside" or whatever...

I'll just remove it..:rolleyes:

[Norse Son]

Perhaps this is part of the agenda of the "Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation"; establish a healthcare monopoly in overseas developing countries, integrate Microsoft as part of the healthcare/medical industry and not just computer software... Maybe I'm going overboard? Too much conspiracy theory? I don't know, sounds like an idea to me.
Not so far fetched as all that. I seem to recall that a few years back the Gates Foundation (or maybe it was MS, itself) had some kind of pilot program with a school district in... Kansas, Nebraska or the Dakotas... one of those states... Anywayz, as part of the effort to increase learning with computers & media the school(s) received vouchers (or credits) that could be used to buy the computer hardware & software needed... Needless to say, the program specified Windows systems...

I think there was even a whole town that the Gates Foundation and/or Microsoft was going to "wire up" for high speed internet & interactive media... I don't know. It's a few years back in my memory...

Hey, I hate the Gateopoly as much as anyone, but using generosity as a pretense for gaining control and power? That's quite a conspiracy. I think too many would call him on it if he bagan to shove MS down their throats.:)
Naw, they'd wait until the check cleared. Then they'd tar & feather him...

Though, if he succeeded he could set himself up as "Papa Bill", Windoze-Tater for life... Then he could thumb his nose at the US & EU courts from the beach while drinking his virgin daquiri

[shawnce]

and nearly three times as many usable integer registers.

To be clear by "usable" you mean named registers, ones that are under direct controll of a compiler or programmer. Those extra registers are still used (at least potentialy) even if not under direct control of a programmer or compiler. Likely not as efficiently but they don't go unused.

Not because programs need more than 2 GiB of memory space

Just to be clear 32 bit address yields an address space of 4 GiB (2^30 = 1GiB, 2^2 = 4) and on average on Mac OS X that gives you a usable address space of around 3-3.5 GiB once you knock out shared memory mappings, etc. Also on average the largest contigous allocation you can make is in the 2-2.5 GiB range because of memory space segmentation from shared mappings, etc.

[Norse Son]

But if the Intel one is cheaper, uses less power, and has zero R&D cost ????

"Centrino" is a much stronger brand that AE ...

Since this story is about "image" - it looks like Apple will be dropping the "Think Different" mindset and will be embracing "Think Same".
Weren't the AE cards made by Lucent, anyways? And I have no clue who makes the chips for the AE-BS... Point is, they were/are pretty much industry-standard chipsets - they'd have to be for certification as 802.11a/b/g...

It was the Airport Software, developed by Apple, that made it different. And that will not change, even if they start using the Centrino bundle... Also, it's important to note that Centrino is not just wireless technology (802.11a/b/g). It is integral to the Napa platform, which includes the cpu (Yonah dual-core to begin), the (optional) Calistoga Intel integrated graphics (think iBook - but likely single-core), the DDR2 memory controller, power management, WiMax/3G options, and PCI-Exp...

Dell, HP, Lenova, et al will have (pretty much) the same Napa platform as Apple (except for whatever TPM Apple "welds on"). However, they are shackled to Windows, so their "counterpart" (used loosely in this case) to Apple's Airport hardware/software duet will "look more like a drunken mule strapped to a rhino's butt that's rollerblading down an avalanche in a too-tight g-string while bellowing Pavrotti tunes in an uncanny imitation of Roseanne Barr" compared to Apple's AE...

[AidenShaw]

However, they are shackled to Windows, so their "counterpart" (used loosely in this case) to Apple's Airport hardware/software duet will "look more like a drunken mule strapped to a rhino's butt that's rollerblading down an avalanche in a too-tight g-string while bellowing Pavrotti tunes in an uncanny imitation of Roseanne Barr" compared to Apple's AE...
Cute image, but the truth is that wireless and networking support in XP is pretty seamless and transparent.

I use several WiFi access points, and XP remembers my keys and automatically connects to the nearest AP (home, office, local coffee shop...). At the airport, I can see all the pay-for options and connect, or plug in my cellular modem PC-card and work about anywhere.

So, make your joke, but Windows does in fact work OK for most people - as evidenced by its market share.

[Norse Son]

That used to be important. But as the powerpc has been evolving, it now has nearly as many instructions as an x86 processor. Plus, an x86 processor no longer executes x86 code, it converts it into microcode and executes that code instead; combining / reducing the real number of instructions executed.

The fact is, with the last G5s apple was falling way behind on performance; they couldn't hit the MHz required to compete against Intel machines which keep improving. At the same time, these new Intel processors do even more instructions per cycle, allowing the clock speed to be reduced resulting in less power and head consumption. The new upcoming Intel processors beat the living day out of the G5s in overall performance and in performance per watt.

They may not have good 64 bit support; but 64-bit support is a true waste for all but 1% of the computing market at most. Floating point and vector math is where it matters for science and games; and 32-bit integer is what matters for office/internet applications. 64-bits is used for programs with HUGE amounts of ram.

RISC vs CISC is about instruction complexity, not instruction count. Plus many x86 instructions aren't merely complex, they're stupid. SIMD instructions that destroy their inputs, for example, so you're forced to execute extraneous load instructions.

A CPU with built-in Rosetta isn't my idea of heaven. I'd bet that translation layer is a significant performance hit. The x86 is extremely register-starved, which doesn't help.
Okay, you two sound like "gear heads" (no insult, either), so maybe you can both enlighten us...

Tiger seems to be the first time we had the real option of dumping the Classic Environment. I'm guessing that Leopard may not even have Classic included - which I think is past due to die. The big question is AltiVec - I know Intel has their own fancy Vector Processing engine/instructions; so will Apple and developers rewrite apps to recognise Intel's instructions? And how does Opel GL support on x86 stack up - I hope Apple never tries to license & "cobble together" support for Direct-X...

And down the line, probably in MacOS X v10.7 ("alley cat"?), will we start to see universal-binaries being phased out? Will we be able to rely on just loading the Intel-versions of the OS & apps by then? If so, I think the performance would increase slightly - again, I don't know how all that Rosetta stuff works when there's less & less for it to translate from PPC to x86...

Intel will likely have 45nm quad-cores, possibly even "octa-cores"(?), by that point (late 2008-09). And Vista "might" see its first SP by then, but I think the MacOS may have "pulled back the curtain on the Wizard" by then, exposing just how shaky Windows STILL is compared to MacOS X.

[Norse Son]

To be clear by "usable" you mean named registers, ones that are under direct controll of a compiler or programmer. Those extra registers are still used (at least potentialy) even if not under direct control of a programmer or compiler. Likely not as efficiently but they don't go unused.

Just to be clear 32 bit address yields an address space of 4 GiB (2^30 = 1GiB, 2^2 = 4) and on average on Mac OS X that gives you a usable address space of around 3-3.5 GiB once you knock out shared memory mappings, etc. Also on average the largest contigous allocation you can make is in the 2-2.5 GiB range because of memory space segmentation from shared mappings, etc.
My head hurts... owww... get them out of my mind! They're screaming at me... They want me to do dirty things with window blinds...

[Norse Son]

Cute image, but the truth is that wireless and networking support in XP is pretty seamless and transparent.
...
So, make your joke, but Windows does in fact work OK for most people - as evidenced by its market share.
Yes, yes... Point noted! I guess I just don't like the "look & feel" of it. I owned one Toshiba laptop in my life, with WinME (or was it 98?), and I hated every minute of it until I could get back to the Mac. Then, as soon as MacOS 10 v10.1 came out I "shunned" Classic - I think the only 2-3 times I went back to Classic was a couple years back when a "computer illiterate" friend got an old 7200 that he wanted to make work (and then I had to poke around a few minutes just to remember how things "worked"). Luckily that friend bought an iMac G5 (orig.) and started using Panther.

My point is I like MacOS X - I even liked the Dock from the beginning. It represents the future. MacOS 9 belongs in a museum. And Windows, with all the legacy code buried below its foundations, still looks second-rate to me. XP's desktop still looks cluttered, and the Start Menu is like trying to walk through one of those topiaries (hedge row mazes?), but at night, and one that was designed by Dr. Seuss & Stephen King...

And is XP still just a shell on top of DOS? How long can it possibly take for the Windows' world to shed DOS? I mean, when was the last release of Lotus 1-2-3? Longhorn was supposed to be a ground-up rewrite, yes(?), but it seems to be taking them an eternity to release even a "viable" beta - unless they "delay" more features.

[AidenShaw]

To be clear by "usable" you mean named registers, ones that are under direct controll of a compiler or programmer.
Yes, you are correct that I mean "named" or "architectural" registers.

The x86 ISA has 8 integer registers, but 3 of those are usually dedicated to certain uses, leaving 5 freely usable. The x64 ISA has 16 integer registers, which leave 13 to be freely usable. "13" is more than 2.5 times 5, so I said "nearly 3 times".

Just to be clear 32 bit address yields an address space of 4 GiB (2^30 = 1GiB, 2^2 = 4) and on average on Mac OS X that gives you a usable address space of around 3-3.5 GiB once you knock out shared memory mappings, etc. Also on average the largest contigous allocation you can make is in the 2-2.5 GiB range because of memory space segmentation from shared mappings, etc.
Yes, this is true for OS X. For Windows, a process normally gets 2 GiB of usable space, and the other 2 GiB is used for the system and I/O mappings. (Windows Server has an option to make the split 3GiB/1GiB.)
________________

My real point is that for PPC, there's no real reason to go to 64-bit addressing (that is, true 64-bit) unless you're hitting that memory barrier in the 2 GiB to 3.something GiB range.

(Note that 64-bit is not needed for supporting more than 4 GiB of physical memory - 32-bit OSX can do it, and 32-bit Windows can also. 64 GiB total memory is the max for 32-bit Windows on 32-bit chips.)

For Intel/AMD, however, the increase in the number of registers means that programs with no need whatsoever for large memory will benefit from a true 64-bit O/S. Many things will run faster if recompiled for a 64-bit O/S.

[heisetax]

hmm, strange love decrangle:

Excel on Apple,
MS DOS on Intel,
Windows on MS DOS on Intel,
Office on Windows on MS DOS on Intel,
Apple on PowerPC,
Office on Windows on MS DOS on AMD,
iTunes on Motorola ROKR,
Microsoft uses PowerPC chips in XBox,
Palm Treo running Windows Mobile,
Apple uses Intel processors,

Whats next?

:D


Excel on Apple, that's over 20 years old now.
MS DOS on Intel, That's probably 25 years old now.

Bill the TaxMan

[sjk]

Tiger seems to be the first time we had the real option of dumping the Classic Environment.My "real option" was to dump Classic on 10.1. Never needed it.

I'm guessing that Leopard may not even have Classic included - which I think is past due to die.AFAIK Classic won't run on Intel-based Macs, which will apparently will use 10.4.x. So that gives Apple a head start for dropping it completely in 10.5 even if it were still possible to run on PPC-based Macs. I've long been warning my Classic-using friends to ditch it ASAP since it's eventually a dead end. But there will still be people using it long after it's officially EOL'd, just like systems still running pre-X Mac OS.

Anyone know anyone still using floppy drives? :eek:

[heisetax]

Yeah that's a good point. FireWireless is a very interresting concept, seeing as how (at least in my experience) that the majority of FW400 hardware is 6-pin (external Hard Drives etc.) and as such, they utilize the built in power in pins 5 and 6. That said, we all know that there is no such thing as wireless power, so these devices would have to have an alternate power source in order to utilize FireWire wireless or whatever it's called. Only the 4-pin FW400 stuff will be able to use this new technology.


The power supplied on pins 5 & 6 only supplies enough power in just a few cases. Most of the time the power is supplied by a power supply just for that item. Most 2.5" hard drives are designed to be able to use bus (pin 5 & 6) power. FW card holders work the same way. Few 3.5" drives have a low enough power requirement to allow bus power. FW printers & scanners would have their own PS.

The only pats that are ever wireless is the signal. Power is always supplied locally.

Bill the TaxMan

[Norse Son]

My "real option" was to dump Classic on 10.1. Never needed it.

AFAIK Classic won't run on Intel-based Macs, which will apparently will use 10.4.x. So that gives Apple a head start for dropping it completely in 10.5 even if it were still possible to run on PPC-based Macs. I've long been warning my Classic-using friends to ditch it ASAP since it's eventually a dead end. But there will still be people using it long after it's officially EOL'd, just like systems still running pre-X Mac OS.

Anyone know anyone still using floppy drives? :eek:
I stopped using it, but for some reason it seemed that every time I upgraded (10.1-10.2-10.3) it never gave me the option of not installing Classic. And I sometimes wonder if the only reason it let me do it with Tiger was because I took it to an Apple store... See, my 3rd DVD-ROM drive died on my Pismo around August of 2004 (the first 2 died within 3-4 months of buying the lemon); so I could not boot from my install disk to run disk utility.

I had the Apple Store erase my hard drive and use a PwrMac G5 (via FrWr) to install Tiger... I desparately need Apple to release a PowerBook dual-core Yonah at MWSF...

Oh, by the way, I think I've seen a few floppies at work - on the Windows PCs. They make good coffee coasters, or frisbees (watch'em smash on a concrete wall).

[ktlx]

And is XP still just a shell on top of DOS? How long can it possibly take for the Windows' world to shed DOS?

XP is not a shell on top of DOS. Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows XP and Windows Server 2003 don't have the DOS legacy at all.

Windows ME has about as much in common with Windows XP as Mac OS 9.2 has with Mac OS X 10.4. Both WinME and Mac OS 9.2 would crash if you looked at them funny. With good hardware and stable drivers both Windows XP and Mac OS X 10.4 are rock solid.

[EricNau]

XP is not a shell on top of DOS. Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows XP and Windows Server 2003 don't have the DOS legacy at all.

Windows ME has about as much in common with Windows XP as Mac OS 9.2 has with Mac OS X 10.4. Both WinME and Mac OS 9.2 would crash if you looked at them funny. With good hardware and stable drivers both Windows XP and Mac OS X 10.4 are rock solid.
How is XP related to DOS? The "terminal" is DOS, so there has to be some relation. :confused:

[SiliconAddict]

Cute image, but the truth is that wireless and networking support in XP is pretty seamless and transparent.

I use several WiFi access points, and XP remembers my keys and automatically connects to the nearest AP (home, office, local coffee shop...). At the airport, I can see all the pay-for options and connect, or plug in my cellular modem PC-card and work about anywhere.



XP is a POS when it comes to Wireless. I'm speaking from someone who is at this moment typing on a IBM X31 Thinkpad with XP W/ SP2. XP's internal app for using WIFI is a kludge. That is why I'm using Intel's WIFI tools. Disabled XP's built in crap and let Intel manage the radio.
Then lets talk about WIFI power management in XP. Sometimes you are lucky to get the thing to go to sleep. I sit there listening to my ThinkPad beep. . .beep. . .beep. . .beep. . .beep. . .beep. . .beep. . .beep. . .for 2 minutes waiting for the standby light to go on...open the lid. Turn off the radio then try it again. Its gotten a heck of a lot better with SP2 and the latest and greatest drivers but its still nowhere as good as Apple's.

[SiliconAddict]

XP is not a shell on top of DOS. Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows XP and Windows Server 2003 don't have the DOS legacy at all.

Windows ME has about as much in common with Windows XP as Mac OS 9.2 has with Mac OS X 10.4. Both WinME and Mac OS 9.2 would crash if you looked at them funny. With good hardware and stable drivers both Windows XP and Mac OS X 10.4 are rock solid.


The voice of reason and sanity.

[SiliconAddict]

How is XP related to DOS? The "terminal" is DOS, so there has to be some relation. :confused:

The terminal is NOT DOS. The "terminal" is cmd.exe. Go to any 2K XP system. In the start menu it is called a Command Prompt. The command prompt is simple a command interpreter that sits on top of the OS. Its a shell is what it is.
Oh and before someone tells me about well what about hitting F8 and selecting command prompt. The OS simply loads cmd.exe instead of explorer.exe

PS- MS is revamping the command line in Vista so it becomes much more powerful. Most apps will be accessable from the command line now. Something the OS X and pretty much the entire *nix world has had well....forever.

[EricNau]

Cute image, but the truth is that wireless and networking support in XP is pretty seamless and transparent.

I use several WiFi access points, and XP remembers my keys and automatically connects to the nearest AP (home, office, local coffee shop...). At the airport, I can see all the pay-for options and connect, or plug in my cellular modem PC-card and work about anywhere.

So, make your joke, but Windows does in fact work OK for most people - as evidenced by its market share.
I have to disagree. I had my Apple network working with WPA network security and it was working within 5 minutes (I think I had to click a total of 5 buttons). Then I discovered that XP didn't support WPA, so I had to disable the security so it could work with my xp laptop.

Also, recently I had to help a friend set up a Wireless Network with two identical HP laptops (with built in wireless) and a Linksys router. It took me several hours to get it working, but even then it wasn't working properly. Now every time they turn off their computers they have to manually sign onto the network, even though it is in their "preferred networks" list.

Windows doesn't have good networking capabilities (and it can't even do WPA). :mad:

[EricNau]

The terminal is NOT DOS. The "terminal" is cmd.exe. Go to any 2K XP system. In the start menu it is called a Command Prompt. The command prompt is simple a command interpreter that sits on top of the OS. Its a shell is what it is.
Oh and before someone tells me about well what about hitting F8 and selecting command prompt. The OS simply loads cmd.exe instead of explorer.exe
So cmd.exe replaced MS-DOS? :confused:

[ktlx]

So cmd.exe replaced MS-DOS? :confused:

Nope. cmd.exe simply provides a similar command line environment to DOS. It only provides a subset of MS-DOS. For example, there are a lot of MS-DOS specific games and applications that cannot run inside cmd.exe. You can run most old BAT scripts, manipulate files and so forth, execute system commands and so on, that was only a part of MS-DOS. If the EXE doesn't try to access hardware resources, it can normally run just fine. cmd.exe does not provide any of the operating system functions of MS-DOS.

[EricNau]

Nope. cmd.exe simply provides a similar command line environment to DOS. It only provides a subset of MS-DOS. For example, there are a lot of MS-DOS specific games and applications that cannot run inside cmd.exe. You can run most old BAT scripts, manipulate files and so forth, execute system commands and so on, that was only a part of MS-DOS. If the EXE doesn't try to access hardware resources, it can normally run just fine. cmd.exe does not provide any of the operating system functions of MS-DOS.
I'm a little confused.

Apple is Unix based, what is Windows based on?

[Peace]

I'm a little confused.

Apple is Unix based, what is Windows based on?


XP is based on the NT Kernel

[AidenShaw]

XP is a POS when it comes to Wireless. I'm speaking from someone who is at this moment typing on a IBM X31 Thinkpad with XP W/ SP2.
Maybe you should check with IBM.... My Dell Centrino never has those problems.

Power management/syspend/hibernate involves platform specific drivers on XP. Those come from IBM, not Microsoft. Have you gone to IBM/Lenovo's website and updated all the relevant pieces from IBM/Lenovo?

[AidenShaw]

I have to disagree. I had my Apple network working with WPA network security and it was working within 5 minutes (I think I had to click a total of 5 buttons). Then I discovered that XP didn't support WPA, so I had to disable the security so it could work with my xp laptop.
...
Windows doesn't have good networking capabilities (and it can't even do WPA). :mad:
Why don't you check first, before posting FUD and nonsense?

Like, for example, typing "WPA" into XP's Help app?

802.11 security
...
The wireless network adapter in your computer might support the Wi-Fi Protected Access (WPA) security protocol. WPA provides stronger encryption than WEP. With WPA, the network keys on networked computers and devices are automatically changed and then authenticated regularly, which provides greater security than WEP.

To use WPA, your wireless network adapter must support it. To find out if you can use WPA on your wireless network, check the manufacturer's Web site for information about your device. The manufacturer might have software or a driver that you can download and install.

So, you're claiming that XP doesn't support something - when in fact it does. Not every WiFi card that XP supports has WPA capability, but most certainly XP supports it.

Please check your facts before posting misleading and incorrect information....

[AidenShaw]

So cmd.exe replaced MS-DOS? :confused:
The Windows terminal app (cmd.exe) implements a command shell that is a subset and superset of the DOS command language.

(Subset because it omits a number of DOS commands that don't make sense for an NT system, yet superset because it also has many extensions from DOS.)

On a Linux or Unix system, one can choose from many distinct shell command languages (sh, bash, tcsh, csh, ...).

The Windows "DOS" shell is similar, it's just a command language interpreter that happens to share many of the commands and syntax from the 16-bit DOS O/S. It doesn't mean that 16-bit DOS is at the core of NT, or that any code is shared from the 16-bit world. It just means that the commands that the user types in the NT terminal app have similar syntax to the DOS commands.

[SiliconAddict]

Maybe you should check with IBM.... My Dell Centrino never has those problems.

Power management/syspend/hibernate involves platform specific drivers on XP. Those come from IBM, not Microsoft. Have you gone to IBM/Lenovo's website and updated all the relevant pieces from IBM/Lenovo?

whatever. I live in this industry. So yes. I've updated everything from Windows patches down the my HD's firmware. My laptop is a Centrino system as such the drivers are Intel based not IBM. All IBM does is roll Intel drivers into a custom installer package.
And the fact remains that it always starts off flawless. I can go months without problems. Then all of a sudden what happened 2 minutes ago happens. That being the system doesn't reestablish the connection when it comes out of suspend. Oh the system reestablishes a connection to the AP. I can see the laptop connected to the AP. I just can't get an IP address again without rebooting. (Even with a release renew.) At this point it's simply MS's dumb butt interaction with NDIS drivers. Actually wireless was better is 2K simply because you didn't have Microsoft's wares competing with Intel's, Cisco's, Linksys's, Netgear's, or DLink's wares. The same goes with BlueTooth as well.
And please don't give me this crap about MS not managing power management/syspend/hibernate. At a certain level it sure as heck does. ACPI and ACPI hardware is managed through Windows. Go into your device manager and drill down to system devices. Take a look at who is the driver owner of everything listed as ACPI. Yes at a certain level there is shared responsibility between the hardware manufacturer and Microsoft but at this point I've done enough troubleshooting to pretty much rule out IBM. XP has gotten better. Its NOT anywhere near your typical Mac Laptop when it comes to suspend/hibernation features.

[dernhelm]

I'm a little confused.

Apple is Unix based, what is Windows based on?

VMS! :P

[BRLawyer]

Maybe you should check with IBM.... My Dell Centrino never has those problems.

Power management/syspend/hibernate involves platform specific drivers on XP. Those come from IBM, not Microsoft. Have you gone to IBM/Lenovo's website and updated all the relevant pieces from IBM/Lenovo?

Sorry, but your Dell Centrino must be "special" then; all my PC-using friends have big troubles trying to connect to university or dorm WLANs, and most of them use that piece of crap called XP and its rudimentary plethora of control panels/wireless software; at the same time and under the SAME conditions, my old iBook G3 always connected on the spot and without a hitch. It's not only a matter of range, it's a matter of ease of use and stability, which PCs will NEVER have.

Same works for sleep functions in PCs; I have NEVER seen any PC, modern or old, to be as quick and reliable in its sleep routine as all Macs. Sometimes I have to use a new Dull PC at work, and it takes ages to sleep (not to mention shutdown), whereas, again, my OLD iBook is almost instantaneous in both tasks.

Besides (assuming you are right, bien sûr), how the HELL am I supposed to know that sleep software comes from the manufacturer of the computer and not from the OS maker itself? Obviously most PC makers DON'T have anything to do with sleep software routines, as most of them don't even create drivers themselves; it IS MS's fault, or an intrinsic fault of the PC wonderland and its thousand brands...go figure.

It's always disturbing to see PC/MS fanboys in a Mac site when they keep trying, all the time, to "demonstrate" that PCs work as well as Macs. Fact is: they DON'T, and only people using BOTH platforms are able to tell that. That's why we see so many switchers following the iPod halo effect, finally discovering how much time they have been dragged through the mud in PC land...pathetic.

[EricNau]

Why don't you check first, before posting FUD and nonsense?

Like, for example, typing "WPA" into XP's Help app?



So, you're claiming that XP doesn't support something - when in fact it does. Not every WiFi card that XP supports has WPA capability, but most certainly XP supports it.

Please check your facts before posting misleading and incorrect information....
Sorry for not checking my facts; but I thought I had. According to my CISCO teacher widows doesn't support WPA without help of 3rd party software.

But you totally missed my point. My point was that it can take hours to network just two identical computers with windows, and with Apple it took me a matter of about 5 minutes.

[AidenShaw]

whatever. I live in this industry. So yes. I've updated everything from Windows patches down the my HD's firmware. My laptop is a Centrino system as such the drivers are Intel based not IBM. All IBM does is roll Intel drivers into a custom installer package.
And the fact remains that it always starts off flawless. I can go months without problems. Then all of a sudden what happened 2 minutes ago happens. That being the system doesn't reestablish the connection when it comes out of suspend. Oh the system reestablishes a connection to the AP. I can see the laptop connected to the AP. I just can't get an IP address again without rebooting. (Even with a release renew.) At this point it's simply MS's dumb butt interaction with NDIS drivers. Actually wireless was better is 2K simply because you didn't have Microsoft's wares competing with Intel's, Cisco's, Linksys's, Netgear's, or DLink's wares. The same goes with BlueTooth as well.
And please don't give me this crap about MS not managing power management/syspend/hibernate. At a certain level it sure as heck does. ACPI and ACPI hardware is managed through Windows. Go into your device manager and drill down to system devices. Take a look at who is the driver owner of everything listed as ACPI. Yes at a certain level there is shared responsibility between the hardware manufacturer and Microsoft but at this point I've done enough troubleshooting to pretty much rule out IBM. XP has gotten better. Its NOT anywhere near your typical Mac Laptop when it comes to suspend/hibernation features.
It works on my Dell....

The Windows ACPI abstraction layer depends on the BIOS and drivers from the vendor - but of course, since you're in the industry, you know that.

Blame IBM, not MS.

[toneloco2881]

Sorry, but your Dell Centrino must be "special" then; all my PC-using friends have big troubles trying to connect to university or dorm WLANs, and most of them use that piece of crap called XP and its rudimentary plethora of control panels/wireless software; at the same time and under the SAME conditions, my old iBook G3 always connected on the spot and without a hitch. It's not only a matter of range, it's a matter of ease of use and stability, which PCs will NEVER have.

It's always disturbing to see PC/MS fanboys in a Mac site when they keep trying, all the time, to "demonstrate" that PCs work as well as Macs. Fact is: they DON'T, and only people using BOTH platforms are able to tell that. That's why we see so many switchers following the iPod halo effect, finally discovering how much time they have been dragged through the mud in PC land...pathetic.
You my friend sound pathetic. Im just as big a Apple fan as the next(fairly recent switcher I might add), but your pedantic drivel is nonsense. To state with absolute certainty that a PC is incapable of "ever" possessing stability on par with that of a Mac is ridiculous. While it's obviously not the case today, who knows what the future may hold.

If anything I hope Windows Vista comes out and is fabulous, because competition breeds innovation, which Apple is best at. You give mac users all over a bad name...

[amholl]

[QUOTE=Maestro64]I hope for more sales!!! Since that will help all the stock I own.

But I do not believe Apple or Jobs will ever allow the Intel logo to grace the outside of the computer. If you look at every single apple computer it is completely void of goddie logos. they have the Apple logo and the name of the product and what makes an Apple is not the fact of the processor inside, look how many processor Apple has gone through over the yrs, 68K, 020, 030, 040, PPC 601, 602, 603, G3, G4, G5, and for the most part Apple never really advertised on the computer what was inside.
-------------------------
Thats not true. My old preforma towers have the powerpc logo right above the floppy and below the cd rom drive

[kalisphoenix]

Apple is Unix based, what is Windows based on?

VMS! :P

:cool: Nice.

[Peace]

This whole Gates vs Jobs thing goes way back don't it ?:p

[steeldrivingjon]

Plus with the rumors of the pending new Intel product to be announce with the help of Intel's design center I am afraid we will all get the same crap the PC world has been getting.

Do you think Intel builds their supercomputers that way?

[steeldrivingjon]

so will Apple and developers rewrite apps to recognise Intel's instructions? .


Apple has libraries of higher-level functions for performing AltiVec-type computation. Apple can (or already have) modified these libraries so that when you're on Intel, they'll use the Intel equivalents, when you're on a G4 or G5 they'll use AltiVec, and when you're on G3 (or trying to use an AltiVec function which has no equivalent on Intel) the library will perform the calculation without the acceleration.

If developers used these libraries they'll have the least work to do. If they hand-coded AltiVec instructions in assembly, they'll have to work out how to do the equivalent for Intel.

[steeldrivingjon]

And down the line, probably in MacOS X v10.7 ("alley cat"?), will we start to see universal-binaries being phased out?

I don't think universal binaries will be "phased out". Technically, the capability has been there all along, because it's inherent in the operating system. All along, OS X has included the 'lipo' commandline utility for working with universal binaries (aka fat binaries, hence 'lipo') which goes back to NeXTSTEP over 10 years ago, which ran on four different CPU architectures.

But at some point over the next 5 or 6 years or so the old hardware isn't going to be supported anymore in new operating systems and applications, simply because it's not up to the job. At some point, G3s will stop being useful for new applications and operating systems, then G4s, then G5s.

Even so, Apple will probably continue allowing developers to build PPC binaries for older versions of OS X. So a developer with an Intel Mac, running 10.7 in 2013 should be able to build software that'd run on a G5 running 10.5.

Whether developers opt to do so is, of course, up to them.

[strange days]

here's what MORLIUM at SPYMAC has posted :

Just under the wire for 2005, Intel announced Friday that it was changing its logo and slogan after 37 years, making the characters a bit more streamlined and the catchphrase more imperative. The "Leap Ahead" logo no longer advertises what's inside; rather, it informs the user what's to come.

It's not a horrendous slogan and it definitely has a certain ring to it, not unlike "Just Do It" or "Tastes Great, Less Filling." Or, I suppose, "Think Different."

So I guess all those discussions about whether Apple will put "Intel Inside" stickers on its PowerMacs and iBooks are null and void, right?

Not really. Now, a slightly different question remains: Will Apple adopt "Leap Ahead" for its computers?

Before you write me off, let's put it into perspective. For one, it's rather interesting that Intel would announce such a major shirt less than two weeks before Apple is expected to roll out its first batch of Intel-based Macs.

And Intel said itself that the slogan is a departure from its generic PC business and make a push into consumer electronics.

Wait. Isn't the iPod a consumer electronic, if not one of the most widely-used ones? And aren't there a bunch of rumors floating around that places Apple at the forefront of digital music distribution, both handheld and in the living room?

So, hear me out. What if, when you turned on your stickerless Mac mini, a little "Leap Ahead" insignia flashed just below the Apple symbol?

No? OK, what if the Intel swirl showed on the screen when Front Row 2.0 was launched?

No? What about print ads? TV spots? Billboards? Anything?

Well, get used to it, because somewhere on your next Mac will be a tag reminding you to "Leap Ahead" while thinking different. These type of announcements are timed just so, and they don’t happen by accident: the Mac mini, Intel switch, Front Row, iTunes Video Store, iPod video and now, a new, edgier Intel slogan.

We're all being groomed for a change, and finally, the pieces are starting to fit. It's not just about shoving an x86 processor into an iMac — Apple and Intel are in cahoots and the coming weeks will reveal the true nature of their partnership.

After all, these days, Steve Jobs and Apple are holding quite a few cards, especially if Intel wants to delve into the world of consumer electronics.

It's funny, but I never stopped to think that the processor switch would mean as much to Intel's development as it did to Apple's. All these months, we've been studying Intel’s roadmap and debating design while we should have thinking a bit more abstractly.

I mean, Intel even formed an internal "Apple group," presumably to hammer out these very ideas. And AppleInsider reported recently that Intel was responsible for the design and development of the new Power Mac’s motherboard, not just its processor.

These aren't signs of a simple partnership. These are the early stages of a juggernaut deal, one that will push both companies to the forefront of the industry.

Leap Ahead. Think different. The phrasing is irrelevant.

Besides, what's a few slogans between friends?

...on top of that, it wouldn't hurt Intel to get rid of the common M$ association that somehow tarnished its image ( on occasions ? ) in the past... ;)

[steeldrivingjon]

"Will Apple adopt "Leap Ahead" for its computers?"

Why should they? It doesn't buy Apple anything. Apple has vastly higher mindshare compared to a new disposable Intel slogan that means nothing to anyone.

Further, Apple has little incentive to promote Intel in general. If you buy a Mac, you'll get an Intel chip, making Intel happy.

On the other hand, Intel has significant incentive to promote the Mac: A Mac sale is better for Intel than a Wintel sale, because a Wintel customer can easily be lost to AMD. A Mac customer is likely to be a long-term Intel customer. Every % point of increased Mac marketshare represents Intel marketshare that AMD can't easily win back unless they can persuade Apple to sell AMD Macs.

And it doesn't help Apple if they promote the idea that the *Intel CPU* is the source of the great experience, because that will lead some to think they can get the same experience if they buy a PC with the same CPU, and run Windows on it.

Basically, I'm not sure what Apple would have to gain from slapping Intel branding all over their OS and hardware. They don't really need the advertising subsidies Intel offers PC makers (who really need the help because they're all interchangeable). Apple might get a low price on CPUs, but that may not be all that significant, given the savings Apple is likely to see from not designing and using PPC parts with relatively low economies of scale.

And in the end, Intel might be willing to grant those discounts and subsidies just to get those long-term safe non-AMD customers, without the branding.

[strange days]

Intel has significant incentive to promote the Mac: A Mac sale is better for Intel than a Wintel sale, because a Wintel customer can easily be lost to AMD. A Mac customer is likely to be a long-term Intel customer. Every % point of increased Mac marketshare represents Intel marketshare that AMD can't easily win back unless they can persuade Apple to sell AMD Macs.

great point !

never thought about it, do you think Intel did and offered Apple special treatment in return ?

[BRLawyer]

You my friend sound pathetic. Im just as big a Apple fan as the next(fairly recent switcher I might add), but your pedantic drivel is nonsense. To state with absolute certainty that a PC is incapable of "ever" possessing stability on par with that of a Mac is ridiculous. While it's obviously not the case today, who knows what the future may hold.

If anything I hope Windows Vista comes out and is fabulous, because competition breeds innovation, which Apple is best at. You give mac users all over a bad name...

It's not pedantic drivel, it's a fact; and that's what you just did above, acknowledging that PCs are not as stable and reliable as Macs in terms of their sleep, wireless or most other functions.

Obviously I cannot predict the future, and that's not what I meant by my statement above; what I said is that, all other things equal, Macs will ALWAYS be superior, especially if Apple can keep its masterful integration between hardware and software. It's not only about the Mac OS, it's about being able to predict almost all possibilities of interaction between man, software and machine. No other company is able to do that, and none will if they are to rely on MS on one side, and (fill your preferred name here for MOBO/chip makers) on the other.

As for Vista, I couldn't care less about that kind of "competition", since most of its advertised wannabe features are either better implemented in Mac OS, or just cheap copycats of Apple's system (and please, don't come with cryptic features that no one cares about).

If you wanna tell me about innovation, show me perhaps some equivalent to BeOS or NeXT; Windows has never shown anything new to Apple (oh yeah, apart from more usable open/save dialog boxes)...and Apple does pretty well by itself, innovating even when there is no close competition.

[Peace]

The Apple Core G6 and Apple Core Duo G6

[ericthered985]

Will al this effect the security of the Mac against the PC:cool:

[ericthered985]

when will the g6 be available in the UK?

[jlewis2k1]

when will the g6 be available in the UK?


there is no such thing as a g6

[BRLawyer]

there is no such thing as a g6

Hehehe, call the Intel whatever on Macs a G6...pronto!

New iBooks and PowerBooks G6! GO GO GO!

[Prom1]

The Apple Core G6 and Apple Core Duo G6

Thats the first I've heard this pair mentioned like that .... seems like a funny pun?!!

That is kinda weird slogan.

[Peace]

Thats the first I've heard this pair mentioned like that .... seems like a funny pun?!!

That is kinda weird slogan.


I got it from the TWIT Podcast with Leo LePorte et.al..

[Diomedes]

Who would've thought that at the dawn of the new millenium, the WinTel axis would be threatened by Apple?

This is a win-win situation all around. Intel gets a new public image by its asociation with Apple, after years of thought of being in an unholy alliance with the beast from Redmond. And if Microsoft doesn't adapt, there could be some serious chinks in the monopoly. I'm sure it's darkened their dreams to see a trinity of Apple-Intel-Google from Silicon Valley eat their lunch!

As far as most people are concerned, the big test will see how Office 12 works on Intel Macs. If Microsoft cripples it, then more organizations will follow Massachusetts' lead — and not because it's a Mac issue, but because it shows Microsoft will insist on maintaining the proprietary and closed formats of their suite. If Office 12 is feature-equivalent with Windows, then consumers will finally have a real choice in computing platforms. Microsoft has shown that they may be planning just that — leave the desktop and go for the server market, where Linux is the threat. There has been an Excel Server announced, that will join Project Server as the start of Microsoft's de-emphasizing the actual desktop applications and stress the importance of collaboration. Can PowerPoint Server be far behind?

Me? I'll be ecstatic if that happens. The Mac will become a major player in business markets; despite the growing popularity of Internet-based applications a la Google Earth, most of corporate America will continue to live by their desktop systems. Even after 10 years, I will not allow a Windows Server-based system in my enterprise. I just don't trust it. To me, the investment in training my IT folks in Linux (or whatever) is preferable to my still-serious questions about Windows stability. I don't even like it used as a test platform, simply because I know my administrators will wind up spending more time getting it to work properly than testing applications.

The offshot of this potential growth in business markets will lead straight to server markets. I have already persuaded my colleagues to bring in a test OS X Server for a system they had planned on using Windows Server, and they are enjoying it (much to their surprise).

I wonder when Apple will announce the first wave of Intel-based OS X Server systems? Now those will be awesome systems!

[ericg]

This should be great for publicity. But how is it going to effect performance? As we apple users know, "cheaper" doesn't mean better. Will this improve upon the performace of the old processors?