CES: Microsoft Music Service and Entertainment

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Bill Gates gave his keynote speech at CES on Wednesday night. CNN offers (http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/04/technology/ces_gates/) a summary of events of the presentation.

Microsoft unveiled a new music service called "Urge". Previous reports (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2005/12/20051214075138.shtml) of Urge had revealed that Microsoft and MTV were joining forces for the new music service. The new service launches with over 2 million songs for purchase or subscription-based service. Few other details are otherwise available. The Urge.com site (http://www.urge.com) simply says "Coming Soon." Urge will be promoted through their Windows Media Player and appears to be Microsoft's answer to iTunes.

Gates also announced partnerships with Intel and their Viiv platform which will allow users to have more entertainment based machines -- providing DVR functionality and more. Microsoft's upcoming revision to Windows called "Vista" will be the operating system for these machines.

Also mentioned:

- DirecTV Content transferable to Portable Media Centers
- Upcoming HD-DVD support for Xbox 360

[Lacero]

Without an iPod killer, Urge will fail. I might be eating crow in a few years though, if Apple royally screws up not licensing Fairplay

[arn]

note: MacRumors hasn't traditionally covered much of CES in the past... because it mostly wasn't relevant to the Mac in particular. This year, things have changed a bit. So, a bit of coverage to keep us up to speed. Intel's keynote might be somewhat interesting. Since it's supposed to be the launching ground for Yonah/Viiv.

arn

[JDOG_]

I don't know, I'm really not going to slam MS on their performance tonight. To me the technology they unveiled looks very exciting, even if it is from Microsoft.

I am excited to see what Apple rolls out next week, but am also excited we're getting Intel technology from now on too :)

[ZildjianKX]

Should read "Xbox 360" :)

[Staffroomer]

Too little too late on the part of Microsoft I think..... I might be wrong though

[Trowaman]

From the CES reports so far I'm a bit concerned for iPod. iPod has taken the mp3 player market, problem now is it's the media center to go market.

The reports for the Sony PSP and XM radio to go players are what is worrying to me. The PSP will be built in with Sony Connect which will do videos (and full access to the Sony catalogue). The PSP is also getting a tv tuner.

If we're just thinking computers now, we're naive. It's now officially media boxes and making them to-go. It's crucial the mac mini becomes a media box now considering were everyone is going with this stuff.

[840quadra]

I love Apple and their products, but lets face it, this is a big threat to Apple. Hopefully they can raise the bar soon, and offer higher quality versions of downloadable videos, and TV shows, as well as a more advanced media device for the home..


The fact that Apple makes the whole widget (Systems, portable systems, displays, software, and network), gives them an advantage if they use it correctly. I truly hope they don't squander the money and advancements they have made! Only time will tell what we can expect, I hope Apple does well :)

[Phat_Pat]

i am resisting the urge to make a joke


whats up with Microsoft's funky names (and spell checker automatically capitalizing Microsoft?)

vista now urge?

"hasta la vista to your senses.... forget trying to hold back those urges... now try and keep calm for ERUPTION... the new media player that will have you screaming for more."

[Doctor Q]

I think the Microsoft vs. Apple winner is clear: It's Intel.

[cycocelica]

glad to see that there might be competition.

[texasmafia]

I agree that the iPod is only the leader in the MP3 player world. In the world of media to go they aren't ahead by much and in many cases are way behind. If they don't debut a Movie service soon and an iPod or some other device that is portable, plays music, movies and has wifi they are in serious trouble. People want their content to go and wanna be able to get content on the go. Apple must deliver.

I think they will!

[windowuser82]

whats up with Microsoft's funky names (and spell checker automatically capitalizing Microsoft?)

vista now urge?


My generation. 18-25 year olds. Time and time again "exciting" words have drawn in the spenders. Xterra, Xtreme,Urge, even Vista promote a sense of activity, outdoors, lively, etc. 60 year olds aren't going to be around long enough to be return customers :)

Who'd want an operating system called Limponoodle anyway?

I was very, very impressed with Gates and the keynote. Thanks to detestable greatness of bandwith clogging streams I was able to see it. I must say Vista looked and acted much better than I originally thought. I'm not a HUGE fan of Microsoft and even though I use and have used Windows for a very long time, I haven't seen anything that impressive from them before; Until now.

Gonna add more Microsoft stock to my portfolio and possibly put off that first Mac purchase :)

[dr_lha]

A link up between Microsoft and MTV on online music would seem like a dream ticket for Microsoft if only for one thing. MTV's target demographic are people who own iPods. Unless URGE works with iPods (which of course it won't) it will fail to capture any significant market, and just enters the already crowded WMA player market.

[Phat_Pat]

when did mtv start caring about music again?

[LimeiBook86]

It's ok, competition can spawn more innovation. Let's see what Apple can come up with...this should get interesting! :D

[texasmafia]

when did mtv start caring about music again?


When they saw dollar signs around it

[HiRez]

Urge will be promoted through their Windows Media Player and appears to be Microsoft's answer to iTunes.Er...wasn't the MSN Music Store (or whatever it was called) also "Microsoft's answer to iTunes"? Yeah, how did that work out?

[BlueRevolution]

I love Apple and their products, but lets face it, this is a big threat to Apple. Hopefully they can raise the bar soon, and offer higher quality versions of downloadable videos, and TV shows, as well as a more advanced media device for the home..

I still say downloadable video rentals would corner a hitherto untapped market and ensure iTunes' continued market dominance. I mean, yeah, some places offer streaming rentals, but if they can adapt their DRM to expire after a specific time and be playable on portable players, they're looking at the iPod all over again.

Who'd want an operating system called Limponoodle anyway?

I would be ALL OVER that. seriously. if somebody came out with an OS with a name like that I would be totally unable to avoid buying a copy. and what was wrong with Longhorn? I think that name got more press than Vista did.

when did mtv start caring about music again?

did they ever?

Er...wasn't the MSN Music Store (or whatever it was called) also "Microsoft's answer to iTunes"? Yeah, how did that work out?

but... but... this one has a snappy name. (uh, if you redefine "snappy" to mean "dorky, capitalist and kind of dirty sounding".)

[p0intblank]

Urge is going to get stomped on by Apple so hard... it's going to hurt. :) I've said it before I will say it again: Apple is way too far ahead into the game for anyone to become remotely close. Sure Microsoft is huge and their service may be a success, but this does not mean people will ditch iTunes. iPod + iTunes integration = perfect. People will not ditch Apple for Microsoft.

Sorry if this post seems unclear.. I'm getting tired. o_O

[texasmafia]

Urge is going to get stomped on by Apple so hard... it's going to hurt. :) I've said it before I will say it again: Apple is way too far ahead into the game for anyone to become remotely close. Sure Microsoft is huge and their service may be a success, but this does not mean people will ditch iTunes. iPod + iTunes integration = perfect. People will not ditch Apple for Microsoft.

Sorry if this post seems unclear.. I'm getting tired. o_O


It isn't Apple versus Microsoft. It is Apple versus EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WHOLE FREAKIN WORLD! That is the danger. Everyone else can decide to play together and all of the sudden Apple is out in the cold just like they were about 20 years ago. I love Apple and I really think behind the scenes they are ahead of the game but I don't want everyone around here thinking Apple has it in the bag when it comes to portable movies. They are nowhere close right now and they better catch up quick. When you have tons of players who will all work with the same services, and then the iPod that only works with one, then eventually the iPod will lose out unless the iPod or iTunes offers something you can't get anywhere else.

[.Andy]

when did mtv start caring about music again?
They don't. And neither do MS which is why Urge will probably suck. I'm putting my money on the system being set up with DRM and profitability first, with user experience second. Perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised but I won't hold my breath.

The biggest problem is if (when) Microsoft Starts pushing Windows Media Player as a defacto install and it inhibits iTunes or iPod functionality. Something simple like a WMP irreversible song file arrangement or proprietary ID tagging system could easily lock songs out of iTunes or the iPod. Much in the same way as Apple uses Fairplay to lock out other mp3 player manufacturers.

[Raidersmojo]

anyone else see how microsoft will be throwing some Xbox360 owners in the cold by offering HD-DVD support for their players? hmmmm.....


they keep trying to screw everyone for cash and such, everyone I know around this area is getting sick and tired of microsoft

vista looks pretty and acts well so far, yeah. but whats going to happen when virsu's and everything else hits the table?

apple needs to fight on many different fronts right now. Music and movie industry, the intel switch, working on OS, portable players, and everything else. they need to expand quickly. they have the music industry on lock right now.

10.5 needs to look prettier, be faster, and steal some of the cool little vista tricks it can do and make them better. so they can go "you have that well we have this too!"

movies need to be expanded in a totally new way. we need something like a PSP. the ipod is nice but it needs to be able to do more.

we also need this DVR technology in our macs.

Apple can make a HUGE splash by letting Sony use OS X on its PS3. whats a better way to get OS X out to a ton of people? let it work on a console thats going to ship 10 million units (in japan alone :D :D :D )

microsoft is coming at us hard during the transition period. I'm sure apple is ahead of the game, but I don't want to look like a fool to all of the people who I have converted over to the apple side

[texasmafia]

I am right there with you. Very well put!

[matd]

Remember :wasn't it Sony that promoted their "Connect" stuff thanks Mc Donald's ? It wasn't a big success for Sony. I would have preferred by far a McDonald's-Apple partnership.
The MTV-Microsoft partnership will also fail because as said before the target audience of MTV are iPod owners MTV's target demographic are people who own iPods.
I don't think that nowadays MTV has the same influence on teens and kids as it had years ago.
So who would like to buy a second MP3 player just to be able to listen to the Urge songs, perhaps with "WMA/DRM - Readable only on Windows device or whatever" restrictions ? For me it will be flop...
By the way the logo has a really poor design, it gives me the feeling of a :"well let us launch something to compete against Apple on the MP3 market", but without any self-confidence.

[mistuk]

Anyone else think that the 'G' in the URGE logo at urge.com looks a heck of a lot like the Quicktime 'Q' symbol??????

Kev

[iMeowbot]

So who would like to buy a second MP3 player just to be able to listen to the Urge songs,
They wouldn't, most likely, because they already have compatible players (their computers). It's primarily positioned as a streaming service for the home. It overlaps some with the Apple offering, but it's not really set up as a direct competitor.

[beatle888]

I don't know, I'm really not going to slam MS on their performance tonight. To me the technology they unveiled looks very exciting, even if it is from Microsoft.

I am excited to see what Apple rolls out next week, but am also excited we're getting Intel technology from now on too :)


Too little too late on the part of Microsoft I think..... I might be wrong though


all these posts by people concerned of how this will affect apples future. i felt the same way but then i read the following post...


When you have tons of players who will all work with the same services, and then the iPod that only works with one, then eventually the iPod will lose out unless the iPod or iTunes offers something you can't get anywhere else.


Now after reading that, i realized that if the above scenario did happen then apple would just have to adjust to work with other formats. if they did that then they can still offer superior software/hardware solutions and still take advantage of all those services that are "only windows compatible". apple can make their software compatible so that the "only windows compatible" services would also work on the OS we all love.

this solution would allow apple to let the coyotes feast and still keep the majority of the market for themselves. i think thats what will happen eventually. it has to. everyone else is going to break into the market eventually. so apple joins whatever the majority excepts as the standard format. they adapt and lose a few foot holds on the market but remains the best at solving problems by creative and careful thinking.

[dejo]

anyone else see how microsoft will be throwing some Xbox360 owners in the cold by offering HD-DVD support for their players? hmmmm.....

Microsoft is adding HD-DVD support via an external drive. I don't think current Xbox 360 owners will get too cold with that.

[windowuser82]

anyone else see how microsoft will be throwing some Xbox360 owners in the cold by offering HD-DVD support for their players? hmmmm.....


they keep trying to screw everyone for cash and such, everyone I know around this area is getting sick and tired of microsoft

Apple, actually, tries to "score the cash". When a new iMac comes out, Powerbook.....what have you... Apple KNOWS Mac users are going to sell off that 4 month old computer. Not a bad move, very good business. Charging such a high price for the same system over and over and over KNOWING that; bad ethics. There is a line when it becomes greed and not innovation. Maybe this is simply a personal opinion but reading other Mac forums it's placed more-so in fact.

vista looks pretty and acts well so far, yeah. but whats going to happen when virsu's and everything else hits the table?

Norton, etc are going to "score the cash" this time around. Business breeding business.

10.5 needs to look prettier, be faster, and steal some of the cool little vista tricks it can do and make them better. so they can go "you have that well we have this too!"

10.5 needs to retain the same character it always has just as Windows needs to retain it's character.


microsoft is coming at us hard during the transition period. I'm sure apple is ahead of the game, but I don't want to look like a fool to all of the people who I have converted over to the apple side

Microsoft, just like Apple, is simply following pretty much the same exact release pattern as it always has.

Ya know... Windows and OS X are very much alike. Windows really didn't change that much from '95 - ME and from what I've seen, OS X really hasn't changed a great deal from 10.whatever to 10.4? dunno the exact current number. Both have gone thru a major overhaul ie: Windows 95 / Windows XP | Classic / OS X. Under the hood, tho, both have essentially updated the same stuff. File browser, packaged internet browser, program speed, supported hardware.....etc etc etc

[somairotevoli]

http://enov8.net/urge.jpg

[djdarlek]

Anyone else noticed that the 'Urge' logo uses a very weird 'G' font? Not too unlike that of the Quicktime logo..

[texasmafia]

http://enov8.net/urge.jpg

I see the same Netscape icon. I don't know what the deal is with that. I'm sure it will change soon if it is an error.

[beatle888]

Ya know... Windows and OS X are very much alike. Windows really didn't change that much from '95 - ME and from what I've seen, OS X really hasn't changed a great deal from 10.whatever to 10.4? dunno the exact current number.


im not sure about this but 95 and ME are more of a full digit upgrade like from 7 to 8. the difference between 10 and 10.4 are just point releases.

[.Andy]

Anyone else think that the 'G' in the URGE logo at urge.com looks a heck of a lot like the Quicktime 'Q' symbol??????

Anyone else noticed that the 'Urge' logo uses a very weird 'G' font? Not too unlike that of the Quicktime logo..

It does look heaps like the Quicktime logo doesn't it? I at least hope they get smacked down by Apple legal for it. They are obviously going to put an accent on the 'G' as part of their marketing and recognition.

[animefan_1]

...Urge will be promoted through their Windows Media Player and appears to be Microsoft's answer to iTunes...

I thought MSN Music was MS's answer to iTunes. :rolleyes:

[shadowmoses]

Urge will undoubtably fail as it is will not be able to compete with iTunes which has a firm foothold on music thanks to iTunes.......
So long as Apple keep one step ahead of competition and don't inflate there prices too high there will be no catching them, plus Microsoft dont have any successful iPod like device to make people use Urge//

Shadow

[iMeowbot]

Anyone else noticed that the 'Urge' logo uses a very weird 'G' font? Not too unlike that of the Quicktime logo..
And the QuickTime logo looks a lot like the much older 60 Minutes logo, which belongs to the same company as MTV :D

[windowuser82]

im not sure about this but 95 and ME are more of a full digit upgrade like from 7 to 8. the difference between 10 and 10.4 are just point releases.

Instead of Windows 95.7, Windows 95.8 it became Windows 98, Windows ME. More creative name change.

[animefan_1]

im not sure about this but 95 and ME are more of a full digit upgrade like from 7 to 8. the difference between 10 and 10.4 are just point releases.

FYI:
Win 95 = Win 4.0
Win 98 = Win 4.1
Win ME = Win 4.9

Compare this to OS X which has probably had more advancements between 10.2 and 10.4 than the entire Win 9x/ME lineup.

[BlueRevolution]

windowsuser82, please don't get it started here too. the Mac vs. PC argument in the Yonah thread was quite enough. and I have to ask you, if you aren't interested in what Apple has to offer... why are you here?

you're not wrong in comparing the history of Windows to that of Mac OS, but you have to look at the whole picture. Windows XP was released in 2001. I'm not sure exactly when Mac OS X was first released but I would guess around 2000. both revolutionized their respective platforms, with more attractive UI and a host of new features (or in Windows XP's case, simply making up for Windows ME). and both were fatally flawed. the difference is that since then Apple has released three entirely new versions of OS X, each more stable and impressive than the last (10.0-10.1 was more patch than anything). by contrast, Windows users have yet to see a single OS update, patches aside.

is it an attempt by Apple to "score the cash" by selling a new OS every year? now when OS X costs a fraction of what Windows does.

now can we get back on topic? if you want to bash Mac, I suggest you make a thread for it.

[animefan_1]

...
So long as Apple keep one step ahead of competition and don't inflate there prices too high there will be no catching them, plus Microsoft dont have any successful iPod like device to make people use Urge...

I don't know why people think Apple's going to voluntarily raise prices. Steve has been fighting to keep prices where they have been since the iTMS started. Why? Because he knows [some] people will stop using online music. Of course, it won't hurt the iTMS's marketshare because everyone in the industry would have to raise their prices. If only Apple had to, Apple should be able to complain that the record companies are trying to hurt Apple's business model.

[BRLawyer]

Everytime we see a new boring "keynote" by Kill Gates et al., we see people showing up and declaring "now it's time for Apple to die!!"...no, guys, not really.

I think that the OS-licensing demon has already been exorcized a long time ago, and the huge success of Apple with iMacs, PowerBooks, iPods and all related paraphernalia has more than shown that...it's time for you to stop predicting the "demise" of Apple because some new technology is out there. Apple is among the top computer makers for a long time, even though people think that its 3% worldwide means nothing...

No "Urge" shop will take on the iTMS for now, because it's exactly the perfect integration between device, software and lax DRM that makes it so successful.

MS has been pushing this Media Center concept for years, and so far few people have shown any interest; Apple is known for finding the PERFECT timing in technologies, introducing or re-presenting them when consumers are finally able to enjoy that...we have seen that with the 3.5" Drive, the CD-ROM, USB, FireWire, music players, Video on music players, digital video and a lot more...

DVR is NOT the next "revolution"...people are mobile, and don't wanna be stuck to living rooms forever; perhaps TiVO is popular in the US because people there love to hang around a TV set...elsewhere it's just a distant and unknown nightmare, just like any other DVR or Media Center initiative. But having said that, Apple will come up with something far better than Windows for Media Centers...as always.

Contrarily to what some people said above, Vista is not "cool" and it's NOT competition for Apple...it's just a beta copycat of OS X, and only appeals to persons that haven't seen Apple's OS. Apple retains the edge because MS needs to copy them anyway; otherwise MS stalls like traffic jams on a big road...they DON'T know how to innovate. Apart from cryptic technologies that geeks will use, please show me one or two things where Vista prevails or is completely original...no, there are none.

As for the XBox, it's just a fight for Sony and Nintendo, not Apple. MS loses money on it, and we haven't even seen yet the PS3 and the Revolution...MS will have a good run for its money, trust me.

Apple has everything to take over the computer world again, with the best and fastest notebooks, and already THE most powerful desktop, the Quad...I couldn't feel better about it.

[brentonbrenton]

vista is catchup, thats obvious.

we have the dashboard like gadgets already, we have the spotlight searching, we have the document previews in the dock. maybe we need some further refinement, thats what 10.5 is all about.

the expose solution they demoed is horrible. why go into the 3d-whatnot mode and still have to scroll through the windows. apple's expose beat them to the punch, all windows, all at once.

they only thing that was of brief interest was the laptop outer lcd, but then again - aren't most of the notificatons it displayed (new email notification, calendars etc), already handled by most ppls cellphones?

[windowuser82]

windowsuser82, please don't get it started here too. the Mac vs. PC argument in the Yonah thread was quite enough. and I have to ask you, if you aren't interested in what Apple has to offer... why are you here?

you're not wrong in comparing the history of Windows to that of Mac OS, but you have to look at the whole picture. Windows XP was released in 2001. I'm not sure exactly when Mac OS X was first released but I would guess around 2000. both revolutionized their respective platforms, with more attractive UI and a host of new features (or in Windows XP's case, simply making up for Windows ME). and both were fatally flawed. the difference is that since then Apple has released three entirely new versions of OS X, each more stable and impressive than the last (10.0-10.1 was more patch than anything). by contrast, Windows users have yet to see a single OS update, patches aside.

is it an attempt by Apple to "score the cash" by selling a new OS every year? now when OS X costs a fraction of what Windows does.

now can we get back on topic? if you want to bash Mac, I suggest you make a thread for it.


Ok.... I'm going to say this so I don't get another private message or something saying the same thing. I didn't start a "WIndows v/s OS X" fight. What I originally stated, and you CAN go back and check this, was simply my opinion about the market validity of OS X and it's ability or lack OF to become a mainstream player. My statement was taken out of context by the typical abused-mac-zealot and used as some insane defensive b.s.

Microsoft has not only updated XP but came out with 2 other operating systems; Media Center and XP 64. I suppose the 10.1 - 10.4 thing is really put into place when realizing that.

"Score the cash" statement - Apple makes, produces and sells OS X AAAAAAAAND the hardware, Microsoft only has the software (the ******** intellimouse crap and the occasional keyboard really do not factor in) Apple charges pretty much the SAME exact price for each NEW AND EXCITING INNOVATION! What was the great leap? Going from a 32 mb video card to a 64 mb. "Oh but it dropped 100 dollars!" Any earthly IDEA what Apple made last year, PROFIT, from iPod sales alone? How about taking some of that massive profit and drop the iMac prices down so they would be MORE competitive?

As far as bashing Mac or Apple..... I don't. I am simply discussing MY point from MY advantage relating to MY profession and constantly being STOPPED by insane "oh you're hitting us" crap from other forum members.

This rant, yes, a tad bit bitchy but I am so sick of the private messages, etc, going hay ****ing wire over crap they have created in their own mind simply because of my forum handle windowUSER(not fan)

Edit:

if you aren't interested in what Apple has to offer... why are you here?

Well, princess|prince (which ever is valid) I am a trader currently heavily invested in Apple and contemplating on purchasing a Mac (which I doubt I will, this may be childish but, just based on the s*** nature of some posters I'd rather burn my balls with Sno-Bowl than plunk down cash just to try something different) If you or any of the others who have literally bombed me with comments like yours would have taken the time to read the little profile and, most importantly, pay attention that almost every post was related to the market aspect of Apple/OS X/Mac/ I WOULDN'T HAVE TO RANT LIKE A MAD MAN!

[nimbus]

Microsoft is adding HD-DVD support via an external drive. I don't think current Xbox 360 owners will get too cold with that.
Oh they won't, but consider how much adding all this crap to the 360 is costing. It's already $600 for the system, online stuff, and just to be able to play. Add the HD-DVD external piece...how much will it be? $99? $199?
The PS3 is far cheaper than 360, not to mention its more powerful with better perks. I won't mention games since that's a matter of opinion. But Xbox 360 has lost. Once PS3 comes out, it's already won in Japan and millions worldwide are waiting for it. 360 will be lucky to keep 3rd place...
:rolleyes:

windowsuser82, please don't get it started here too. the Mac vs. PC argument in the Yonah thread was quite enough. and I have to ask you, if you aren't interested in what Apple has to offer... why are you here?

Hehehe, "window washers"...
:rolleyes:

[rolandf]

In deed, so-far it seems Intel is the winner. And if Apple does not really get special preferences from Intel, it makes no sense for them to
abandon the PowerPC platform at all.

Instead they should try to build something around a second version of the Cell as-well. In the future programmers have to face devices with many cores anyway.

Remember, MS has now both platforms!

Therefore Apple should stay flexible!

[BRLawyer]

Oh they won't, but consider how much adding all this crap to the 360 is costing. It's already $600 for the system, online stuff, and just to be able to play. Add the HD-DVD external piece...how much will it be? $99? $199?
The PS3 is far cheaper than 360, not to mention its more powerful with better perks. I won't mention games since that's a matter of opinion. But Xbox 360 has lost. Once PS3 comes out, it's already won in Japan and millions worldwide are waiting for it. 360 will be lucky to keep 3rd place...
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

That's what Windows fanboys can't realize...MS is through, not only with its OS, since most corporations will NOT change to Vista soon...and switchers will NOT move back to Windows or whatever.

In the console arena, XBox is already gone at the moment PS3 and Revolution show up...what is left, then? MS Office, perhaps.

[aafuss1]

I also noticed MS demo'ed a new version of Flight Simulator (looks stunning-wish X-Plane would match it).

[cablecartman]

It seems ironic that Microsoft is running a Sun Webserver product on urge.com (checkout favicon). Surely they trust IIS to keep up with demand ;)

[iGary]

As Lacero said, without iPod, and without iTunes, Urge will flop.

[dazzer21]

On a different note, as MWSF gets nearer I find myself getting increasing edgy about the whole Intel thing. Now even more so since Microsoft have introduced their iTunes rival - 2million tracks sounds llike rather a lot to me - what's the iTunes count at the mome?

Also, with Intel openly embarking on the Viiv platform, a potential iMac/MacMini media centre equivalent, the whole Windows/Vista/Mac/OSX thing is all starting to blur into a nightmare mish-mash that could well damage the credibility of the Mac Platform.

Wintel and Mactel machines will be running the same processors, effectively the same hardware and all that may differ between the two will be the design and, dare I say it, the price, with the Mac being the premium product!

I think I preferred the two completely separate platforms opposite each other which at least made the Mac a <superior> platform in itself.

Yes, the new machines are no doubt and exciting Mac transition, but I'm concerened about the long-term effect of all of this. I just hope The Boy Jobs has got his sums right...

[cwedl]

I really think that Microsoft may get some market share from this, the only problems and its big is windows media player! its awful in every sense of the word! There are some great Portable music players out there including iRivers, Can't wait to see what apple will bring out this january, one things for sure, they will not let microsoft get away with this.

[mpw]

Without an iPod killer, Urge will fail. I might be eating crow in a few years though, if Apple royally screws up not licensing Fairplay
iPod killer?
I have a feeling that the iPod killer will be all the Windows Mobile smartphones.:(
Hey Steve I've got a need for a smartphone and/or tablet that plays nice with my home desktop. And I've got £500 and some puppies waiting for you to step up or my next PC will be Windows!

[backspinner]

http://enov8.net/urge.jpg

Well, the domain is owned by Viacom International Inc. and the current server has Linux as operating system with Sun-ONE-Web-Server/6.1 as server software.

[johnadurcan]

Can anyone confirm if the microsoft website allows them to view the Vista page from within Safari? It just won't let me in but Firefox has no problems. Just visit microsoft.com and click the 'Windows Vista -> bringing clarity to your world' next to Showtime.

[iMeowbot]

Can anyone confirm if the microsoft website allows them to view the Vista page from within Safari?
It works fine from here. Microsoft have been having some network problems over the past few days, so you may be hitting a bum cache or something.

[backspinner]

with Safari on 10.3.9 I get on http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/default.aspx

[BenRoethig]

Ok.... I'm going to say this so I don't get another private message or something saying the same thing. I didn't start a "WIndows v/s OS X" fight. What I originally stated, and you CAN go back and check this, was simply my opinion about the market validity of OS X and it's ability or lack OF to become a mainstream player. My statement was taken out of context by the typical abused-mac-zealot and used as some insane defensive b.s.

Microsoft has not only updated XP but came out with 2 other operating systems; Media Center and XP 64. I suppose the 10.1 - 10.4 thing is really put into place when realizing that.

"Score the cash" statement - Apple makes, produces and sells OS X AAAAAAAAND the hardware, Microsoft only has the software (the ******** intellimouse crap and the occasional keyboard really do not factor in) Apple charges pretty much the SAME exact price for each NEW AND EXCITING INNOVATION! What was the great leap? Going from a 32 mb video card to a 64 mb. "Oh but it dropped 100 dollars!" Any earthly IDEA what Apple made last year, PROFIT, from iPod sales alone? How about taking some of that massive profit and drop the iMac prices down so they would be MORE competitive?

As far as bashing Mac or Apple..... I don't. I am simply discussing MY point from MY advantage relating to MY profession and constantly being STOPPED by insane "oh you're hitting us" crap from other forum members.

This rant, yes, a tad bit bitchy but I am so sick of the private messages, etc, going hay ****ing wire over crap they have created in their own mind simply because of my forum handle windowUSER(not fan)

Edit:



Well, princess|prince (which ever is valid) I am a trader currently heavily invested in Apple and contemplating on purchasing a Mac (which I doubt I will, this may be childish but, just based on the s*** nature of some posters I'd rather burn my balls with Sno-Bowl than plunk down cash just to try something different) If you or any of the others who have literally bombed me with comments like yours would have taken the time to read the little profile and, most importantly, pay attention that almost every post was related to the market aspect of Apple/OS X/Mac/ I WOULDN'T HAVE TO RANT LIKE A MAD MAN!

Welcome to the Mac world. No offense guys, you you don't have much tolerance for opinions other than "everything Apple does is good and everything everybody else does is bad."

[dernhelm]

I see the same Netscape icon. I don't know what the deal is with that. I'm sure it will change soon if it is an error.

I don't see that here from work, it is more of a diamond-looking logo.

[Tindy82]

FYI:
Win 95 = Win 4.0
Win 98 = Win 4.1
Win ME = Win 4.9

Compare this to OS X which has probably had more advancements between 10.2 and 10.4 than the entire Win 9x/ME lineup.

Actually it goes something more like this...

Win 95 = Win 4.0
Win 95B = Win 4.1
Win 98 = Win 4.5
Win 98B = Win 4.6
Win ME = Win 4.9

[Stella]

I wouldn't write microsoft off with this attempt so quickly.

So what if it can't support the iPod. There are more people who listen to music who do not have an iPod, so lack of compatibility doesn't matter ( thanks Apple, again for your closed system :o ).

microsoft are not always going to be lagging in this department, they have more than enough money to throw at the problem until they succeed, and they must. Digital stores whether it be music or movies is going to be a money spinner in the future and microsoft *want* to be there.

[Jesus]

I don't see that here from work, it is more of a diamond-looking logo.


That's the Sun Microsystems logo, the maker of the server software they are using.

[KindredMAC]

MTV? They don't even play music anymore! How are they going to help M$? Give them all their crappy re-hashes of Real World and Road Rules as well as their Teeny Bopper Sex infused Ho Bag Dim Whitted Beach Bunny shows about how hard it is to be a Cool Kid in today's world????

Ahhhhhh.... I feel much better now

[oskar]

iPod killer? OK. Everyone has gone mad... How can you possibly think that there'll be an iPod killer any time soon? Apple has sold millions of iPods. Tens of millions of iPods. Any new product that Microsoft could suddenly release would need the time and effort that Apple has put into the iPod. By then Apple would of course respond in time to beat the competition.
Now where I think Apple does need to show us better stuff is in the video and movie market. I think the "problem" is that the videos they sell are intended to be played on the iPod. If you think about it, with the millions of video-capable iPods they probably already sold this holiday season is more than a good reason to make videos compressed for the iPod. However, the home media market is beginning to grow rapidly once again. Just taking a look at the news that's been announced at CES gives you an idea where 2006 is going. I think Jobs's "year of HD" statement was ahead of its time. I think 2006 is the year of HD. Finally the consumer will be able to buy their Bluray or HD-DVD player for that HD television in which they rarely see high-def content.
I think it's Apple's best chance to take advantage that with digital video on your computer or home media device, you don't have to decide what format to side with or discs to worry about either.
Let's see how Apple plays it out next week. I think 2006 is going to be a real exciting Apple year. :D

[AidenShaw]

iPod killer?

I have a feeling that the iPod killer will be all the Windows Mobile smartphones.:(
This is the most rational comment so far....

My cellphone (http://www.samsung.com/Products/MobilePhones/Verizon/SCH_I730ZKVXAR.asp) runs Windows, Outlook, Excel, Word, map applications, Windows Media Player, Internet Explorer, and hundreds of other ports of Windows apps.

It has WiFi, Bluetooth, "Cellular DSL" (EVDO) with 700 Mbps downloads,...

Add to that the new things that Bill showed at CES, and it's huge.

Maybe if Apple has "Mobile OSX" ready for a handheld they can avoid losing this battle (although "losing" isn't really the right word - Apple hasn't joined the game).


Hey Steve I've got a need for a smartphone and/or tablet that plays nice with my home desktop. And I've got £500 and some puppies waiting for you to step up or my next PC will be Windows!
Why'd you hide that?

And, btw, add "home media center and game console" to the list....

[Les Kern]

I don't know, I'm really not going to slam MS on their performance tonight. To me the technology they unveiled looks very exciting, even if it is from Microsoft.


Nah. If you read closely the reviews of the event, it was nothing more than "some" upcoming items and "mostly" dream/vapor ware. The only thing missing was the blue screen of death (becasue you and I BOTH know that's what would have happened if those items had ACTUALLY been hooked to Vista!). This was scripted, and used technology that hasn't been "invented" yet.
As for "Urge", it's doomed, though unlike some I DO like the logo.

[Lacero]

This is the most rational comment so far....

My cellphone (http://www.samsung.com/Products/MobilePhones/Verizon/SCH_I730ZKVXAR.asp) runs Windows, Outlook, Excel, Word....
Rational comment, it isn't. You are not the typical average person.

I'd like to see old men and ladies shopping Rodeo drive fiddling around with a smart phone. And those who use smart phones are not using it in the gym to listen to music. More features does not translate to more success against something iconic like the iPod.

Here's to the Crazy Ones http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35452 (http://www.uriah.com/apple-qt/movies/think-different.mov)

[Les Kern]

Welcome to the Mac world. No offense guys, you you don't have much tolerance for opinions other than "everything Apple does is good and everything everybody else does is bad."

I read through the posts and didn't get the impression that GUYS meant EVERYONE as your note implies, so I think that's unfair.
Some are "worried", some don't give a rat's ass (me), some are the old-style MS-haters, some don't have the intelligence to MAKE a valid point.
Just like the PC-forums I visit!

[BRLawyer]

Rational comment, it isn't. You are not the typical average person.

I'd like to see old men and ladies shopping Rodeo drive fiddling around with a smart phone. And those who use smart phones are not using it in the gym to listen to music. More features does not translate to more success against something iconic like the iPod.

Here's to the Crazy Ones http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35452 (http://www.uriah.com/apple-qt/movies/think-different.mov)

Exactly. Unfortunately, most posters here think that the "average" consumer is the "average" MacRumors poster...

1 - Most people don't even know "smartphones" exist;
2 - Most people don't care or don't want a smartphone, they have a thousand buttons and feel more like "jack of all trades, master of none" (have you ever seen one actually?)...people want SIMPLICITY;
3 - "Smartphones" are expensive in any country, unless you get an abo/subscription with'em;
4 - They are still bulky when compared to either down-to-earth mobiles or iPods.

Bottomline? No, thanks...they are not competition to Apple right now, or for at least 2 more years.

[Whistleway]

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/experiences/music.aspx

I love my ipod, but this is a serious threat to the itunes/ipod, in a big way than it ever been.

[Les Kern]

Maybe if Apple has "Mobile OSX" ready for a handheld they can avoid losing this battle (although "losing" isn't really the right word - Apple hasn't joined the game).

Hope they never are, IMO. First, cell phones/PDA's/Radio/Music-players with all those extra features are without a doubt the most annoying, over-rated tech items in the history of the world. Please, what's more annoying than listening to some no-neck screaming on their Nextel to some guy a few miles away, the static making the voice on the other end all but white noise. And that ****** "BEEP!!!" after the mike button is pushed... over and over and over again. It's all I can do not to grab it and crush it under my size 15's.
PDA's themselves are over-rated. I am in the tech business. I know more power-users than most. Only a very, very few ACTUALLY use PDA's to their fullest. The vast majority play games during boring meetings, or are updating crap on them. Dumb waste of time.
Apple got OUT of the PDA business a long time ago. They don't need to go back. So what to make of my ASUS wireless PDA running Win CE? GREAT bathroom companion with Scrabble.

[Sport73]

Let's see how Apple plays it out next week. I think 2006 is going to be a real exciting Apple year. :D

I came to a frightening realization. I already knew it, but it turns out I'm a true Apple zealout. I look at these announcements from Microsoft, and the lovely (truly) XBox 360 sitting below my 50" HDTV and think - "I wish I could do that." I wish I had a box that could show me my photos, music, and movies navigated by remote control; I wish I could record (like on my HD Tivo from DirecTV) and easily move that content from the living room to the bedroom and onto a portable device. I wish I could download HD movies (current releases) direct to my TV, which I'd gladly pay at least $10 per film for...I wish my XM radio was more integrated into my home stereo...

Oh, there's a solution for what I want, it's called Microsoft Vista Home Media, XBox 360 Media Center, and the 'family' of partner products supported by Windows Media; and that scares me.

For those that haven't used one, Microsoft got the 360 RIGHT, it's the iPod of game consoles in elegance and design.

BUT, I love my 6 Macs, my 4 iPods (in the house), and iTunes. I respect Apple for LEADING the world into legally downloaded digital content. I WANT Apple to win because I know the Apple experience will be a better one in the end.

I already have a few problems. I use a PowerBook in the living room connected to my iMac's music library and my Airport Express to play music - it works GREAT and is nearly perfect. The only problem is that if my wife or I get the whim to buy a song from the neatly integrated iTunes store, that file gets stored LOCALLY on my Powerbook, and I have to remember to transfer it to my iMac library if I want it to show up there (homebase for my music collection). I could try sharing the iTunes Library with both iTunes, but it clearly wasn't built for that and I worry about corrupting the precious 5,000 song library I built.

I have a Mac Mini connected to my HDTV, but I almost never use it. Even less since my 360 arrived and I can watch photos straight from my Digital Camera in seconds, and download/watch HD movie trailers in the XBox 360 Marketplace.

Apple doesn't have a link into my Living Room, and I desperately want them to. But I worry about them trying to go it alone. I love XM Radio, I love my iPod with Video. I don't really need or care about portable XM radio outside of my car, but I guess it would be nice to have one device that did XM, mp3 (AAC) music, portable video, and photos. I have a PSP for portable gaming; it's a nice system but I don't care to buy UMD's for movies nor store my music on the small/expensive flash memory cards; it's a good game machine though.

I have DirecTV, mainly because of PQ and NFL Sunday Ticket, and I LOVE my HD Tivo (Tivo is the only other company besides Apple that earns passion from its users). I have a Hitachi HDTV; a Yamaha receiver, an XBox 360 and a Mac Mini in the entertainment center as well. As much as I want to buy from Apple, the ideal experience would be HD movies purchased and download straight into my HD PVR, not yet another box (spare HDMI ports are hard to come by), so unless Apple is prepared to replace my DVR...

The point is that Apple was performing perfectly and LEADING the world into legal, portable, digital music; somewhere along the way they decided to 'wait and see' on video, and now Vongo and Microsoft have begun to steal the thunder and momentum...

I believe Apple will have a solution for me, and I'm willing to wait for the company I love...But eventually, I'll have to yeild reluctantly to the forces conspiring to give me what I want. The pressure is on Apple and Monday's KEYNOTE may be the most important since Steve's return.

PS> For anyone who thinks I'm bashing Apple, bear in mind that I still believe OS X is lightyear's beyond anything else, and use Macs exclusively, even in a corporation with 3,000 other Windows users. I have personally 'sold' or bought more than $200,000 worth of Apple products in the past 2 years, having convinced my entire extended family, friends and coworkers to switch to the Mac platform and the accompanying iPod etc. I LOVE APPLE. I WANT APPLE TO WIN. For the first time in years, however, I'm nervous. This is all moving very fast...

[Les Kern]

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/experiences/music.aspx

I love my ipod, but this is a serious threat to the itunes/ipod, in a big way than it ever been.

Bull-flop. :)
Relax, dude. Let Apple do their thing.

[1macker1]

I have a Windows smartphone, and i use it to go jogging. It does it all, and once the SD memory limit jumps, I think these devices could really challenge the iPod.

Mp3's
Video
Internet
Outlook
Word
Text Messages
MMS Messages
Tons of Java Games

I like my phone more that i like my iPod mini.
Rational comment, it isn't. You are not the typical average person.

I'd like to see old men and ladies shopping Rodeo drive fiddling around with a smart phone. And those who use smart phones are not using it in the gym to listen to music. More features does not translate to more success against something iconic like the iPod.

Here's to the Crazy Ones http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35452 (http://www.uriah.com/apple-qt/movies/think-different.mov)

[840quadra]

Please, what's more annoying than listening to some no-neck screaming on their Nextel to some guy a few miles away, the static making the voice on the other end all but white noise. And that ****** "BEEP!!!" after the mike button is pushed... over and over and over again. It's all I can do not to grab it and crush it under my size 15's.

Go ahead and try to take mine, I kick hard and can run quite fast in my 13s :D ;) !

In most cases I can't stand Other nextel users myself. I don't know why they can't go to speakerless mode when using Direct connect in a busy area, or when their is allot of background noise. I can hear much better with the speaker off, using the normal cellular ear piece in those conditions

The nice thing about speakerless is the fact that depending on how you use it, others won't even know that you have nextel, as they won't hear beeps. The other nice thing about Nextel that I love about work, is the other person cannot interrupt you when you need to make a point, if they try to stop you from talking, their phone just beeps at them. :D


Apple got OUT of the PDA business a long time ago. They don't need to go back. So what to make of my ASUS wireless PDA running Win CE? GREAT bathroom companion with Scrabble.

A sad day indeed, however it was hurting their bottom line, and distracted them from their more serious need of getting systems selling again. I do also agree with your tech comment. I work in a datacenter, and many of our clients have PDA's, I rarely ever see them doing anything other then games, or simple notes!

[MarcelV]

vista is catchup, thats obvious.
we have the dashboard like gadgets already, we have the spotlight searching, we have the document previews in the dock. maybe we need some further refinement, thats what 10.5 is all about.

The only issue I see is that it will be much less tempting for Windows users to switch. If the choice for the Windows user is to buy hardware with Windows Vista or hardware with OS/X , they probably will chose Vista, just because it's Windows and they are familiar with it. Even that it has a dark side. People just don't like to change often. It's most people's human nature.

[strange days]

This is the most rational comment so far....

My cellphone (http://www.samsung.com/Products/MobilePhones/Verizon/SCH_I730ZKVXAR.asp) runs Windows, Outlook, Excel, Word, map applications, Windows Media Player, Internet Explorer, and hundreds of other ports of Windows apps.

It has WiFi, Bluetooth, "Cellular DSL" (EVDO) with 700 Mbps downloads,...

Add to that the new things that Bill showed at CES, and it's huge.

Maybe if Apple has "Mobile OSX" ready for a handheld they can avoid losing this battle (although "losing" isn't really the right word - Apple hasn't joined the game)

second that :eek: ...than again, i have to agree the smartphone market is still a niche market and will never be for everyone. But it's growing fast...

[840quadra]

As far as bashing Mac or Apple..... I don't. I am simply discussing MY point from MY advantage relating to MY profession and constantly being STOPPED by insane "oh you're hitting us" crap from other forum members.

Actually you do a good job at bashing Apple, and it's users.

If you cannot see the snide somewhat aggressive tone in your own writing (the cause of those PMs no doubt), you should perhaps take some journalism or writing classes. ;)

This rant, yes, a tad bit bitchy but I am so sick of the private messages, etc, going hay ****ing wire over crap they have created in their own mind simply because of my forum handle windowUSER(not fan)
Deal with it!

As long as you are making points in the way that you are, you are not going to make many friends here. You can get your point across just as easily, without offending Macintosh users, on a Macintosh forum!

And before you go after me (which really won't bother me), I am fine with both Windows, and Microsoft. They both make me plenty of money, and I enjoy working with many types of Technology, operating systems, and environments.

http://forums.macrumors.com/image.php?u=47064&type=profile&dateline=1127904880

[Photorun]

At first the story/article made me concerned, then I read on CNN (always huge suck ups to M$) that during their unveil they had Justin "It was a wardrobe malfunction, errr, it was her idea" Timberlake at the unveil, like that would give them some type of cred? That whiny little weak R&B weasel adds about as much credibility to the proceedings as having Pamela Anderson handing a Nobel Peace prize. If his milquetoast appearance was a sign that this is going to flop I don't know what is.

[bigandy]

sorry, you mistook me for someone who gives a crap.

urge will fail. yet another "ipod killer" from microsoft? just like all their other "ipod killers", the ones that did their job so well.

[richdun]

Anyone else find it funny that the urge.com bookmark icon is the Netscape logo (at least for the moment)? Firefox and IE for Win both show the same one.

[boombashi]

Bull-flop. :)
Relax, dude. Let Apple do their thing.

No kidding - If it twice as good as Windows Media Center - They will have years to go to catch up to where Apple was 2 years ago. I'm not concerned - looks like more assey M$ crap.

Funny thing they call it "URGE", isn't that what the Devil does to try to get you to fall for his tricks and come over to the dark side, then you buy in all the suddenly you realize your in HELL.
- kind of like all the Windows users are today.

Anyone else find it funny that the urge.com bookmark icon is the Netscape logo (at least for the moment)? Firefox and IE for Win both show the same one.

I noticed the same thing :D just like M$ attention to detail. Apple uses a scalple M$ uses as Broad Sword.

Did anybody watch the CNN interview with Bill Gates!? Did you see Bono with Bill Gates! I know it's a non-profit Business Relationship, but it looked a little fishy to me.

check it out here

http://money.cnn.com/services/video/

[AidenShaw]

Rational comment, it isn't. You are not the typical average person.

I'd like to see old men and ladies shopping Rodeo drive fiddling around with a smart phone. And those who use smart phones are not using it in the gym to listen to music. More features does not translate to more success against something iconic like the iPod.
Don't worry about the elderly, worry about the high schoolers....

Ask them if they'd like one pocket device that plays music, plays videos, does email and text messaging, manages their appointments, can take notes or record audio, can surf and download from the web, and lets their parents ask them why they aren't yet home?

I bet the reaction will be YES!, except maybe for that last item....

Many kids and young adults are gadget freaks, and they'll be leading the smartphone revolution. The technophobes won't be getting them, but they're not buying iPods either. The gym rats will buy Creative Nano players or shuffles anyway. (I wonder what percentage of shuffle-equipped people at the gym have a "large" iPod at home?)

As to the comment about price, increased volumes will soon make smarter phones the norm. Color bitmap displays in phones used to be outrageously expensive. The first camera phones took top dollar, but today they're freebies or nearly so. Phones with web and email are free today (http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/store/controller?item=phoneFirst&action=viewPhoneDetail&selectedPhoneId=2100).

Also, look at smartphones as coming out in multiple tiers:

Dumb phones - voice plus text
"Not very smart" phones - voice, text, maybe camera or simple email. Limited smart functions.
"Somewhat smart" phone - voice, text, camera, calendar,email, browser. Builtin functions, can't add applications, have to use carriers' tools and infrastructure
"Smart" phones - as above, but can add custom or non-carrier apps. QWERTY keyboards, bluetooth/WiFi with VOIP, Can interface with anything (I don't have to go through Verizon to download my Outlook email and calendar). AKA "PDA".


For #4, at least Microsoft splits this tier into two. A Microsoft "Smartphone" is a smaller device with a typical phone keypad (a few extra buttons), no touch screen. Although it runs mostly the same apps as the PDA, its UI makes it mainly a read-only device. A Microsoft "Windows Mobile" device (or "Pocket PC Phone Edition") has a larger touch-screen, often QWERTY or on-screen keyboard. It's read/write, and can replace a laptop for people who only need email/web on the go.

To all the people who say that the iPod won't be dethroned - one word: "Walkman".

But you're right, Lacero - I'm the atypical average person ;)

[Yvan256]

To all the people who say that the iPod won't be dethroned - one word: "Walkman".

I'll add "Atari" and "Amiga" to your list if you don't mind.

[Peace]

I watched Gates's Keynote via live stream ( hey Steve!! hello?? ) and the theme of the whole CES is gadgets connecting to a PC for everything under the sun..
That's great..But

The Windows world is still trying to figure out how to connect the livingroom to the PC..

I believe come next Tuesday we will see how the livingroom IS the PC.

And that my fine friends will define the difference between us and them.;)

[840quadra]

Don't worry about the elderly, worry about the high schoolers....

Ask them if they'd like one pocket device that plays music, plays videos, does email and text messaging, manages their appointments, can take notes or record audio, can surf and download from the web, and lets their parents ask them why they aren't yet home?

I bet the reaction will be YES!, except maybe for that last item....

Many kids and young adults are gadget freaks, and they'll be leading the smartphone revolution. The technophobes won't be getting them, but they're not buying iPods either.


I agree 100%

I think it was good for Apple to pull out of the PDA space back when they did, however now is the time to get back in as long as they make it something worth using.

I see many people use only 10% of what their PDA is capable of. Part of the problem is due to the fact that many of the functions are not exactly easy to use, or intuitive for most. And I am talking about people that work in the IT field, not your average father or housewife.

The Kids will like the idea, and support it. However the parents and older people are the ones that have the money to pay for them. I think the golden ticket would be to win over both groups, for different reasons.

Just my opinion though nothing more :)

[esaleris]

Music-buying is an emotional issue. It's my theory that the burst in the need for portable music players came from the movie industry. The younger generation links so many specific moments in their lives with music, just as a soundtrack accompanies the screen. Whether or not that theory is true isn't the point. The point is that it's still an emotional issue.

With that, Apple has a huge lead. Why? Image. Microsoft has never been a hip company nor one with a positive image. Microsoft is, yes, so ubiquitous in our lives, yet we do not celebrate them. We don't admire Windows XP, remark on its beauty and elegance, awe at its simplicity, and stand bathed in white heavenly light at a CompUSA. Buying a PC with Windows is a chore, a necessity, a standard component of business life. But Apple is a choice. Apple draws people with the emotional aspects of computing - beauty in form, elegance in design, and modern in nature.

Therefore, it is my opinion that Urge will capture more people outside the target market than inside. Baby booomers who are not familiar with the whole iPod phenomenon will consider an integrated solution with their computers. They do not have that emotional attachment with beautiful products; to them, computers are still darned complicated things. Children, teenagers, and young yuppies, on the other hand, will not be as darwn to Urge because they are saavy enough to know what they want. They identify with the product not on a cost-basis, not on a utility or funcational-basis, but at the emotional level.

If Microsoft thinks it can win on a traditional business strategy platform, it is dead wrong. Lower prices and easier accessibility will still not "urge" a general hooked on elegance and style into their service, unless they paint a different image of themselves.

[iris_failsafe]

What infuriates me off is that all of these technology stuff from M$ is always the same crap. They build things with a zillion features that no one uses. They add all of these things designed by engineers jailed in Redmond which becomes pointless because either they crash the OS or slows it down so much the computer becomes unworkable.

Lets face it, if MS didn't make Windows just all of the other extensions porgrammes no one will use Explorer or their mediaplayers or technology because at the end they are really bad.

[BenRoethig]

I watched Gates's Keynote via live stream ( hey Steve!! hello?? ) and the theme of the whole CES is gadgets connecting to a PC for everything under the sun..
That's great..But

The Windows world is still trying to figure out how to connect the livingroom to the PC..

I believe come next Tuesday we will see how the livingroom IS the PC.

And that my fine friends will define the difference between us and them.;)

The current difference is that we're coming up with the innovations and they're making the money off of it.

[AidenShaw]

The Kids will like the idea, and support it. However the parents and older people are the ones that have the money to pay for them. I think the golden ticket would be to win over both groups, for different reasons.
In the professional space, the real two-way email capability will do this, IMO.

Email is the killer smartphone app - many people in business are realizing that being away from your email is as big a problem as being away from your phone.

Blackberry has a good niche here - among the people who can write the considerable expense off on their expense accounts.

Soon smartphones will make your plumber and your gardener realize that having email all day long is important for making money. They'd never recover the expense of a Blackberry, but a smartphone with email included in the low monthly rate will hook them.

When those same people go shopping for a phone, they'll see phones in the store that seem to run the same Windows that they use on their PC. And even some of the same applications - IE, Outlook, Excel, Word, Powerpoint (Microsofts "Streets" highway atlas even includes the Windows Mobile version on the same DVD....).

That will be a "halo effect" that should have Jobs frightened!

[YouBelongInCT]

In my experience, it seems that the general population could care less about video capabilites on their music players. Videos, for the time being, belong on TVs with DVD players, not on computers, and certainly not on 2" screens. Don't get me wrong, I have a video iPod myself, and it's fantastic, but I don't feel like new introductions into the video market are a huge threat right now. If you remember when the original iPod came out, Apple had 0% of the MP3 player market (a market which was MUCH larger than the current mobile video market). Innovation won that market, and it will win this one. Microsoft has continually failed to innovate, and I don't see Urge being any different.

[Peace]

The current difference is that we're coming up with the innovations and they're making the money off of it.


That is so very true...

There was one gadget I saw. I think it was made by Panasonic.Not sure.Basically what it is is an EyeTV HD box that you can slip your DirecTV card into and connect to the LAN..
That was a cool gadget..

[aegisdesign]

I really think that Microsoft may get some market share from this, the only problems and its big is windows media player! its awful in every sense of the word! There are some great Portable music players out there including iRivers, Can't wait to see what apple will bring out this january, one things for sure, they will not let microsoft get away with this.

WMP is awful but lots of Windows users hate iTunes too. On Windows it's slower and quicktime 7 is slow too. Plus it looks so out of place and has some weird interface glitches left over from it's OS9 days.

Actually, thinking about it, it's pretty weird on OSX today too.

Apple need to overhaul iTunes, throw out the old style interface and improve the performance, especially on Windows. Plus, with iTunes now managing iPods, podcasts, videos, radio, music... it's a wonder they can cram it all in and still be useable.

[MacinDoc]

This is the most rational comment so far....
Now don't you go accusing anyone of being rational on these forums, especially in the week leading up to MWSF...

I am concerned that with the over-inflated expectations (such as a dual core Yonah iBook and a dual core Yonah multimedia center Mac Mini at the current price points), there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth here following the Stevenote...

[deadturtle]

I see the same Netscape icon. I don't know what the deal is with that. I'm sure it will change soon if it is an error.

Heh on my Fedora box I have the SUN logo. Somehow seeing a SUN logo on a Microsoft page is kinda funny!

[SiliconAddict]

Here's where the fun begins...

[csimmons]

I love Apple and their products, but lets face it, this is a big threat to Apple. Hopefully they can raise the bar soon, and offer higher quality versions of downloadable videos, and TV shows, as well as a more advanced media device for the home..


The fact that Apple makes the whole widget (Systems, portable systems, displays, software, and network), gives them an advantage if they use it correctly. I truly hope they don't squander the money and advancements they have made! Only time will tell what we can expect, I hope Apple does well :)

The fact is, Apple is still the ONLY company to offer TRUE CHOICE, in that their solution is cross platform. Many of you are forgetting just how important a factor that is. When Apple's market share skyrockets in the next two years (increasing the Mac user base) because of Intel-based Macs, the ratio of Mac to PC users will be such that the also-rans will have to take notice. The power of the Mac user base will be felt by these other companies very soon. You'll understand what I mean shortly.
:D

[Peace]

Speaking of icons..
Did anyone watch Gates's keynote?

He was "showing off" Vista's search capabilities and I tell you what..

Vista's search icon is almost an exact duplicate of the OS X spotlight icon.

[Doc383]

Anybody read this article yet?...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/ptech/01/05/ces.gates.ap/index.html

This is the sentence that interested me...

In addition, Intel Corp., which is promoting its so-called Viiv chip technologies aimed for multimedia machines for the networked, digital home, will require that Viiv customers base their products on Microsoft's Media Center Edition.

What's that about????

[iSaint]

Bono as Apple's iPod man vs. Timberlake as MS Urge man? Are you kidding me? Even the parents of the 13 year olds realize a credible and usable system in the iPod and iTunes, no matter the efforts of MS to bring in a popular no-talent to draw them away. This is really funny. Gates, in a short interview on CNN HN, seemed to be reaching for something to better Apple. He also made some reference to the XBox shortages in saying 'wait until next holiday'.

[Machead III]

second that :eek: ...than again, i have to agree the smartphone market is still a niche market and will never be for everyone. But it's growing fast...

Smartphones will eventually be up there with laptops in terms of portable computing, a lot of people are going to use them and the market will grow and grow over the next few years. However, this is just the sort of area Apple has historically fallen behind, nay, completely ignored.

It now has the R&D, the scope and the brand recognition to get involved, though, and should do so as soon as possible.

[mpw]

Rational comment, it isn't. You are not the typical average person.

I'd like to see old men and ladies shopping Rodeo drive fiddling around with a smart phone. And those who use smart phones are not using it in the gym to listen to music. More features does not translate to more success against something iconic like the iPod....

Current 'standard' cellphones already have more features than most people want let alone need let alone use. Many people already struggle with their cellphones, but I think it's inevitable that cellphones will continue to gain features and today's smart phones are tommorows standard.

Hopefully the interfaces will become easier to use as they mature and it seems that MS are winning the battle for market share as they did with the desktop.

In a years time what will the iPod offer that most phones won't? Will the average person really want an 80Gb HDD or will they be happy with the 8Gb flash available to them in their phone? iTMS?

I want a smart phone that will handle my Outlook/Entourage duties, surf via WLAN, play some music and view edit basic Word/Excel/PDF/JPEG etc. on top of being a phone and that sync seamlessly with my desktops at work and home.

Other than seamlessly syncing with my Macs an iMate K-Jam pretty much covers all those bases which is why unless an Apple compatible alternative arrives in the next 6months or so my next computer purchase will be made so it's compatible with that cellphone and it won't be a Mac.:(

[Machead III]

I watched Gates's Keynote via live stream ( hey Steve!! hello?? ) and the theme of the whole CES is gadgets connecting to a PC for everything under the sun..
That's great..But

The Windows world is still trying to figure out how to connect the livingroom to the PC..

I believe come next Tuesday we will see how the livingroom IS the PC.

And that my fine friends will define the difference between us and them.;)

Haha! Very well said!

When Apple decides to pioneer a new concept, it sees that it's realised before it moves on to the next one. M$ is starting to look desperate, jumping from one half-baked idea to another.

Don't worry, on a long enough timeline, the survival rate for a company as incompetant as M$ always drops to zero.

[iMeowbot]

Vista's search icon is almost an exact duplicate of the OS X spotlight icon.
Both have been using a magnifying glass as a search icon for a long time. I think they used a magnifier in Win95, and Sherlock was, 1997ish? So it's like whatever.

[Peace]

Both have been using a magnifying glass as a search icon for a long time. I think they used a magnifier in Win95, and Sherlock was, 1997ish? So it's like whatever.


I know..
But it's even the same colour!

[ethelred]

I find everything is great with itunes

[rolandf]

On a different note, as MWSF gets nearer I find myself getting increasing edgy about the whole Intel thing. Now even more so since Microsoft have introduced their iTunes rival - 2million tracks sounds llike rather a lot to me - what's the iTunes count at the mome?

Also, with Intel openly embarking on the Viiv platform, a potential iMac/MacMini media centre equivalent, the whole Windows/Vista/Mac/OSX thing is all starting to blur into a nightmare mish-mash that could well damage the credibility of the Mac Platform.

Wintel and Mactel machines will be running the same processors, effectively the same hardware and all that may differ between the two will be the design and, dare I say it, the price, with the Mac being the premium product!

I think I preferred the two completely separate platforms opposite each other which at least made the Mac a <superior> platform in itself.

Yes, the new machines are no doubt and exciting Mac transition, but I'm concerened about the long-term effect of all of this. I just hope The Boy Jobs has got his sums right...


As I emphasised several times, it is not wise for Apple to give-up the PowerPC platform. Certainly in the long run the switch to Intel bears no
potential of differentiation for them.

Only the combination of dedicated hardware and cutting edge software solutions will be able to generate long-term growth.

Also, sooner or later it makes no sense to have an iPod, as these functions will be naturally integrated into mobile phones.

[BRLawyer]

WMP is awful but lots of Windows users hate iTunes too. On Windows it's slower and quicktime 7 is slow too. Plus it looks so out of place and has some weird interface glitches left over from it's OS9 days.

Actually, thinking about it, it's pretty weird on OSX today too.

Apple need to overhaul iTunes, throw out the old style interface and improve the performance, especially on Windows. Plus, with iTunes now managing iPods, podcasts, videos, radio, music... it's a wonder they can cram it all in and still be useable.

Sorry, iTunes has no contenders in the dig jukebox arena...its interface is close to perfect and I need no freakin' skins (that's the main complaint from ex-WinAmp users)...and yeah, it's been working perfectly so far...it's surely THE BEST iLife app out there...

[BRLawyer]

Current 'standard' cellphones already have more features than most people want let alone need let alone use. Many people already struggle with their cellphones, but I think it's inevitable that cellphones will continue to gain features and today's smart phones are tommorows standard.

Hopefully the interfaces will become easier to use as they mature and it seems that MS are winning the battle for market share as they did with the desktop.

In a years time what will the iPod offer that most phones won't? Will the average person really want an 80Gb HDD or will they be happy with the 8Gb flash available to them in their phone? iTMS?

I want a smart phone that will handle my Outlook/Entourage duties, surf via WLAN, play some music and view edit basic Word/Excel/PDF/JPEG etc. on top of being a phone and that sync seamlessly with my desktops at work and home.

Other than seamlessly syncing with my Macs an iMate K-Jam pretty much covers all those bases which is why unless an Apple compatible alternative arrives in the next 6months or so my next computer purchase will be made so it's compatible with that cellphone and it won't be a Mac.:(

Again, most people already have problems DIALING numbers on their phones...people like you are NOT the average, and do NOT count in terms of mass marketing...you guys must realize that phones are for CALLING...apart from address book, alarm clock and maybe some pics/music, NO ONE wants another "do-it-all" gadget...it's failed before, it's gonna fail forever, or at least until everyone becomes a Borg-like citizen...

[Sunrunner]

Sorry, iTunes has no contenders in the dig jukebox arena...its interface is close to perfect and I need no freakin' skins (that's the main complaint from ex-WinAmp users)...and yeah, it's been working perfectly so far...it's surely THE BEST iLife app out there...


Yup. There is a reason everything else is just an emulation. iTunes is a great app.

[MacinDoc]

Ok.... I'm going to say this so I don't get another private message or something saying the same thing. I didn't start a "WIndows v/s OS X" fight. What I originally stated, and you CAN go back and check this, was simply my opinion about the market validity of OS X and it's ability or lack OF to become a mainstream player. My statement was taken out of context by the typical abused-mac-zealot and used as some insane defensive b.s.

...edit...

Well, princess|prince (which ever is valid) I am a trader currently heavily invested in Apple and contemplating on purchasing a Mac (which I doubt I will, this may be childish but, just based on the s*** nature of some posters I'd rather burn my balls with Sno-Bowl than plunk down cash just to try something different) If you or any of the others who have literally bombed me with comments like yours would have taken the time to read the little profile and, most importantly, pay attention that almost every post was related to the market aspect of Apple/OS X/Mac/ I WOULDN'T HAVE TO RANT LIKE A MAD MAN!
Most posters on MR enjoy a good debate, but it would be nice if everyone could keep it respectful and well thought out. For a good example of this, see the many posts made by AidenShaw. Although I don't always agree with him, his posts are always carefully considered, thoughtful, respectful, and often witty. And because he posts in this way, although he gets many contrary replies, he rarely gets flamed in a disrespectful way.

[aristobrat]

urge will fail. yet another "ipod killer" from microsoft? just like all their other "ipod killers", the ones that did their job so well.
Microsoft doesn't make iPod killers -- they make the software that guarantees that music will play on other manufacturers MP3 players.

At my local Best Buy today there were the usual iPods on display, but all of the other players (10+) were grouped into this special area with "Window Media Plays For Sure" logos all over them ... a little cute one on the device, a bigger logo on the shelf price tag, and a fairly huge display explaining how "Plays For Sure" guarantees that the music you download will play on the device, if the place you download it from has the same logo.

It was very impressive, and as an iPod/iTunes lover, a little scary to see.

Microsoft doesn't need one iPod killer to take over the market. Having its software run on 10+ different inferior MP3 players (each with it's own small marketshare) is all it needs.

Oh, and content sources. DirecTV recorded shows -> a Windows Plays For Sure device is definately going to swing a lot of people who are on the bench trying to decide between an iPod or a Windows powered device.

[Nepenthe]

I liked the comment from the slashdot post:

"from the fewer-clones-will-die-in-this-one-i-think dept."

[whatever]

I agree that the iPod is only the leader in the MP3 player world. In the world of media to go they aren't ahead by much and in many cases are way behind. If they don't debut a Movie service soon and an iPod or some other device that is portable, plays music, movies and has wifi they are in serious trouble. People want their content to go and wanna be able to get content on the go. Apple must deliver.

I think they will!

For starters the average person does not want their media to go just yet. The average person; which is none of us here because an average person does not post or Web Forums; is just finally accepted the iPod. The example I'll use is my gym. In everyday I see more and more white iPod headphones. I would say that 90% of the people at my gym now uses an iPod, the remaining 6% use portible CD players (can you believe that) and the rest use a non-iPod player.

These average people no longer use words such as MP3 Players, they call them iPods and they talk about iTunes not MP3 files. They do not consider the music on their iPods as computer files, but as songs!

I know that for us, this doesn't matter, but to them it does. It means that there is a standard and it's controlled by the iPod and Apple.

The portable video device that more people will be using will be the iPod, why, because they bought them without thinking about it when they bought their music players.

Remember, the iPod was not the first player out there, it was just the best.

Whatever

[SiliconAddict]

Speaking of icons..
Did anyone watch Gates's keynote?

He was "showing off" Vista's search capabilities and I tell you what..

Vista's search icon is almost an exact duplicate of the OS X spotlight icon.

I've seen early (I'm talking internal MS releases here.) alphas of Vista that came out about when the developer preview of Tiger came out. If MS copied them it was the fastest copy job on the face of the planet. Sometimes a steering wheel is a steering wheel

[Surreal]

since this seems to be about CES as well


HP dropped itunes for rhapsody
http://www.toptechnews.com/news/HP-Ditches-iTunes-for-Rhapsody/story.xhtml?story_id=0110013UITFH

[SiliconAddict]

Actually it goes something more like this...

Win 95 = Win 4.0
Win 95B = Win 4.1
Win 98 = Win 4.5
Win 98B = Win 4.6
Win ME = Win 4.9


There is a WIn 95C in there somewhere. FYI to add to the mix...

Windows NT 4
Windows 2000 = 5.0
Windows XP = 5.1
Windows 2003 = 5.2

Windows Vista = 6.66 :D

[SiliconAddict]

since this seems to be about CES as well


HP dropped itunes for rhapsody
http://www.toptechnews.com/news/HP-Ditches-iTunes-for-Rhapsody/story.xhtml?story_id=0110013UITFH

Yah this was rumored about, what?, 2-3 weeks ago. Too bad. Apple really doesn't know how to sell itself to other companies. :(

[dicklacara]

I watched Gates's Keynote via live stream ( hey Steve!! hello?? ) and the theme of the whole CES is gadgets connecting to a PC for everything under the sun..
That's great..But

The Windows world is still trying to figure out how to connect the livingroom to the PC..

I believe come next Tuesday we will see how the livingroom IS the PC.

And that my fine friends will define the difference between us and them.;)
One of the more astute posts...

... and the home (house/apartment) is the Network

[BlueRevolution]

Ok.... I'm going to say this so I don't get another private message or something saying the same thing. I didn't start a "WIndows v/s OS X" fight. What I originally stated, and you CAN go back and check this, was simply my opinion about the market validity of OS X and it's ability or lack OF to become a mainstream player. My statement was taken out of context by the typical abused-mac-zealot and used as some insane defensive b.s.

we're bad that way. Mac fanatics can be dangerous creatures indeed when provoked. :D

still, referring back to your original post:

Apple, actually, tries to "score the cash". When a new iMac comes out, Powerbook.....what have you... Apple KNOWS Mac users are going to sell off that 4 month old computer. Not a bad move, very good business. Charging such a high price for the same system over and over and over KNOWING that; bad ethics. There is a line when it becomes greed and not innovation. Maybe this is simply a personal opinion but reading other Mac forums it's placed more-so in fact.

that is what struck me as an attempt to get another argument started since more than anything it calls into question the sense and free will of Mac users. and while I'm sure there are some that behave in that way, if you look around the forum you'll see that a lot of us are using computers that are several years old.

look at iPods. it's not uncommon to find someone here still using any of the 1G-3G iPods around here, but at school I have not seen anybody with an older iPod than the 4G iPod Photo since about 6 months after its release. so I'd say that means Mac fanatics are less likely to jump on the "ooh Steve Jobs told me to" bandwagon then the general population.

If you or any of the others who have literally bombed me with comments like yours would have taken the time to read the little profile and, most importantly, pay attention that almost every post was related to the market aspect of Apple/OS X/Mac/ I WOULDN'T HAVE TO RANT LIKE A MAD MAN!

I have never bashed you or contacted you at all via PM. mine was a genuine question, which you have answered. I am satisfied.

[VanNess]

I don't see any major differences in (SPL)urge and MS's initial failed music download service. Urge takes on MTV networks' branding with the likely addition of downloadable music vids, which is mostly just playing catch-up with iTunes. Other than that, it looks like the same old same old (except for the deafening silence on what purchased music (with and without subscriptions) will cost you for the "new" service).

Well, it didn't work for Microsoft before, and there isn't enough new or remarkable here to seriously deter anyone's attention away from iTunes. Unless you like the rather novel idea of buying an expensive remote control, err..."extender" (Xbox) for it.

Hear no iPod, speak no iPod, see no iPod.

[AidenShaw]

I've seen early (I'm talking internal MS releases here.) alphas of Vista that came out about when the developer preview of Tiger came out. If MS copied them it was the fastest copy job on the face of the planet. Sometimes a steering wheel is a steering wheel
Due to Longhorn's long gestation, several other things that were first seen or talked about in Longhorn ended up shipping first in OSX 10.4.

Of course, none of the OSX features were copied from the plans for Longhorn...

[mpw]

Bare with me on this tangent and sorry if it's already been mentioned if I've missed it.

The name 'Urge', I wonder if it just a coincidence or whether it's a deliberate marketing ploy or just a case of using the same focus groups that Nissan's latest concept car apparently inspired by the gamers, games of and including the Xbox 360 is also named the 'Urge'?

[decksnap]

I don't know how long all the Vista stuff has been up on Microsoft... so forgive my ignorance, but... that's really the interface they're going with?!? All this time I thought it was just a quick and dirty used for the betas. Uggggh! :eek:

[ZorPrime]

One thing I haven't been able to figure out is whether or not the music or vids users download with this M$ "service" will disappear if the software is removed. I think one of the things that mades iTunes so successful is the fact that if you get rid of iTunes the music doesn't vanish. If the music and vids disappear on an internal timer, M$ will flop. Either way, competition is good because it'll most certainly make Apple's iTMS even better.

just my 2¢ :o

[hyperpasta]

I was worried that we'd see Microsoft unveil some "secret weapon" against Apple's home media plans. It seems that they don't have one.

[Mac_Freak]

I was worried that we'd see Microsoft unveil some "secret weapon" against Apple's home media plans. It seems that they don't have one.
I guess you haven't seen Gate's opening keynote speech at CES when he show off what Microsoft think will be the future or breaking point of digital age.
See it for your self. :( Looks like a rip off of some SciFi gadgets/features that you see in movies, nothing to original.

Link: http://www.microsoft.com/events/executives/billgates.mspx

[Peace]

The whole concept at this years CES is "catch-up to Apple"

[BENJMNS]

iPod is the hot ticket right now, but bottom line, all that sucker does is play music in a tight little software/hardware package. The video piece is a good development, but that screen is too damn small to be watching a TV show or feature length movie.

We need better access at home and MS has spent billions to get in. We'll see if it pays off.

I'm looking forward to true wireless access with very fast speeds. Until that happens, all this is just cute toy stuff.

[yankeefan24]

It has a CHANCE of having success if it has compatiblity with the iPod. I kno alot of people with windows and ipods. I don't know a single person who has a different kind of mp3 player. Napster could also be successful if they do that.

[MacFan06]

I don't see any need to worry about Apple in the long term. Anything M$ does, Apple does better!!!:) The ONLY M$ product I have the URGE for is Vista MCE and it's upcoming CableCard and DirecTV support. I hope that Apple can come up with something better With HD and DVR capabilities then I would really buy that!!!:D

[robbyx]

I wish I had a box that could show me my photos, music, and movies navigated by remote control

Check out Roku's PhotoBridge HD (http://www.rokulabs.com/products/photobridge/index.php). It can access photos, music, and movies stored on a Mac or PC (no special software required; just activate file sharing). The interface is solid and getting better with every revision and the system runs Linux and is very open. A number of third party apps already exist. Video quality is stunning. I compared a DVD played on a progressive scan player connected to the HD-ready inputs on my TV to a ripped file played via the PhotoBridge. No comparison. The PhotoBridge was far superior. It's a very excited product.

I wish I could record (like on my HD Tivo from DirecTV) and easily move that content from the living room to the bedroom and onto a portable device.

Have you checked out Elgato's (http://www.elgato.com) offerings?

I wish I could download HD movies (current releases) direct to my TV, which I'd gladly pay at least $10 per film for...

I have to admit, I don't get the allure, not when it will take hours, even days, to download gigabytes worth of data (just how big is an HD movie anyway???). What's the point? Netflix or your local video store are a lot faster. Sure, SOMEDAY in the future, downloading large video files will be a killer app, but who really cares about this today? And who really wants to deal with the headache of slow servers and trying to transfers gigs over DSL or cable? Maybe in five years, but not today...

[Quillz]

Without an iPod killer, Urge will fail. I might be eating crow in a few years though, if Apple royally screws up not licensing Fairplay
I have to agree. While the service itself may be awesome, the fact is that there has yet to be a MP3 player that uses the Playsforsure technology that is as easy to use as the iPod.

[robbyx]

I didn't see the Gates keynote, but all of this paranoid talk about M$ trumping Apple is rather amusing. How long has M$ peddled the media center concept? How long has it been a failure? Jobs is smart. He recognizes that one of the key problems with the whole concept is the lack of integration with cable boxes or DirecTV systems. I'd never ditch my DirecTV with Tivo for some half-baked "media center", even if it came from Apple. Until Apple (or M$) can deliver a "media center" that connects to my DirecTV, I'm not budging. It sounds like M$ has struck a deal for CableCARD support. Needless to say, this is HUGE and will certainly help to make the "media center" concept more legit. Apple needs to strike a similar deal ASAP.

By all accounts, Tivo's relationship with DirecTV is on the outs. Why? Because DirecTV would rather roll its own PVR software (Linux, anyone?) than pay licensing fees to Tivo. Look at Dish Network. They offer a PVR, but it sure isn't Tivo. And the cable companies are starting to roll out boxes with PVR technology. None of these companies want to pay fees to Tivo, Apple, or M$.

The smartest thing for Apple to do now would be to develop additional devices (like the iPod) for home media. Create some sort of media server software that runs on the Mac and integrates with iTunes, iPhoto, and supports video as well. Add CableCARD support to the Mac (or the ability to tap into shows stored on the DirecTV, cable, or DISH PVR), and you have a winner. Then offer devices like the excellent Roku SoundBridge or PhotoBridge to access the media on the computer from anywhere in the home.

Connect an Apple video player to each TV and scroll through and select home movies, ripped DVDs, iTunes TV show purchases — whatever. Or connect an Apple audio player to each stereo and access the iTunes library on the server computer. Allow iPods to be updated from this central server rather than forcing the user to keep a music library on his or her desktop.

And, since this is a server-based scenario, allow multiple users (ie: the family) to access the media files, update the server, etc.

Give us an iPod with a bigger screen for watching video or carrying along our favorite iPhoto albums to show friends and family. Get rid of the actual scroll-wheel, make the screen touch-sensitive, and create a virtual scroll-wheel when the iPod is in music mode. Form factor could stay the same, but a screen covering the entire iPod would be more than adequate for viewing video in the subway or a plane or sharing photos. Add Bluetooth for transmitting audio and video data to enabled devices and you're ready to go. I'm not sure I get the desire for WiFi in the iPod. After all, updating the iPod via USB2 or FireWire will always be MUCH FASTER.

Back to the "media center"...I don't want to connect a Mac Mini to my TV. That's stupid. I want a headless server in a closet somewhere that serves content to my ENTIRE house. Content can be served to multiple devices without the need for multiple computers. The computer should store the data while network player devices should access it.

And, quite frankly, most of this is doable today. Between Roku and Elgato, all of the above is possible. I'm certain that Apple could deliver a more elegant solution — and I hope that they do. Perhaps M$ will get it right this time around. They're certainly coming out swinging — and that's good for Apple. A little competition never hurt anyone!

As for Urge, in a word, whatever. People buy iPods. If M$ really thinks that anyone is going to ditch his or her iPod for a WM-based player, they're delusional. The thing I don't understand is why MTV would make such a HUGE blunder and align themselves with M$. They should have struck a deal with Apple. Marry the MTV branding with iPod and you have an unstoppable force. Instead MTV has joined the ranks of all the other companies who are picking up the crumbs from Apple's plate.

Sure, Apple could falter, but their lead is SO HUGE that they have ample time to make the needed course corrections. M$ can only hope to play catch-up. If one of the geeky trends people like us argue about really takes off, Apple is in a far better position to exploit it than M$. That's Jobs's greatest strength. He knows how to distinguish something interesting, but ultimately not mainstream (yet), from technologies the public is ready to embrace and understand. He's proved that with the iPod and I belive he can do it again with the home "media center" concept. Ultimately it all comes down to the software and user experience. On these two fronts, if history is any indicator, I'd put my money on Apple.

2006 should be an interesting year in nerddom...

[BRLawyer]

Due to Longhorn's long gestation, several other things that were first seen or talked about in Longhorn ended up shipping first in OSX 10.4.

Of course, none of the OSX features were copied from the plans for Longhorn...

Sorry, but you should've said: "due to Longhorn's long gestation, MS was able to copy most things presented in Panther/Tiger by Apple, so that MS could ship them in the final version as well"...

[Choppaface]

Microsoft's upcoming revision to Windows called "Vista" will be the operating system for these machines.

Um, to be fair, Vista is lot more than a "revision," especially if you consider Jaguar, Pather, and even Tiger more than a 'revisions.'

[Lacero]

As Lacero said, without iPod, and without iTunes, Urge will flop.Exactly. Bottomline? No, thanks...they are not competition to Apple right now, or for at least 2 more years.I have to agree.

Thank you, all. I realize I may very well be the smartest person who ever lived on Earth.

Here's to the Crazy Ones http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35452 (http://www.uriah.com/apple-qt/movies/think-different.mov)

[YS2003]

MS's entry into this market shows their market research dept determined it is worthwhile to enter into it because of the potential market growth and profitability. I feel this is another MS's belated market entry (like they did with IE against Netscape, Xbox against Sony/Nintendo). As a late comer, MS should have seen what works and what does not work by looking at current Apple's performance and other players who tried but did not succeed in cracking the market).

I am guessing MS will spend the massive amount of money to drum up this new venture as they did with Xbox. They are after post Baby boomer generations to increase their market presence and revenues and this market (online media market) is mostly supported by post baby-boomer generations (teens, 20's, 30's). I think MS will bet on this market by introducing same products/services which are already in the market, with some enhancement or some integration with their Windows OS (to differentiate their offering from their competitors), even if they are losing money for the next 3 to 5 years (as long as they determine they will become profitable thereafter).

[840quadra]

Thank you, all. I realize I may very well be the smartest person who ever lived on Earth.

Here's to the Crazy Ones http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35452 (http://www.uriah.com/apple-qt/movies/think-different.mov)

Indeed, and I still love your picture with the tongue hanging out!
:p

[aristobrat]

Until Apple (or M$) can deliver a "media center" that connects to my DirecTV, I'm not budging.
Looks like that might be in the works:
http://engadget.com/2006/01/05/directv-joins-the-viiv-olution/

But how much are you willing to pay for a "media center"? Most decent M$ ones appear to be over $1,000. Even if Apple brings one in around $500, that's still 5x more expensive than a DirecTV DVR.

[aristobrat]

While the service itself may be awesome, the fact is that there has yet to be a MP3 player that uses the Playsforsure technology that is as easy to use as the iPod.
And if "Plays For Sure" ends up being the only technology that vendors support for moving their protected content to mobile devices (think: cable TV/satellite boxes, satellite/digital radio, downloadable movie services like the new Vongo, porn sites...), it isn't going to matter one bit that the iPod is easier to use.

The choice between "an easy to use MP3/video player that can't be used with anything but the iTMS" or a "harder to use MP3/video player that works with everything BUT the iTMS" isn't a hard choice.

[AidenShaw]

Sorry, but you should've said: "due to Longhorn's long gestation, MS was able to copy most things presented in Panther/Tiger by Apple, so that MS could ship them in the final version as well"...
That would be the claim preferred by the people who say that "Apple invented USB". :D

[ack_mac]

A few thoughts...

While Vista looks nice and all, it is definitely a copy of OS X and I seriously doubt that Vista will be ready (at least with all the features that were shown) for some time. In addition, Vista is going to be a hardware and memory hog, and when you starting loading all the applications, security products, etc, it has potential to be pretty slow unless you are running it on state of the art hardware with several gigs of memory...

As a recent swticher, I can tell you there is no way I am ditching OS X to go back to Windows... I truly believe that OS X 10.5 will even further push Apple out front.

As far as Urge, I think what we will end up seeing is Urge competing with the likes of Rhapsody, and Napster and taking their marketshare. I think this past Christmas has proven that Apple iPod sales have not flatlined and the world wants more...

[SkipNewarkDE]

.... when MTV was an innovative, respected, vibrant, and
energetic force in music. Coming home from school and
rushing to turn on the television to watch the latest videos was
an exciting part of my teen years. There were exciting visuals
and it was a great entertainment form in its infancy.

MTV lost its way in the 90's. Now it has become a company that
peddles in self-involved pretentious twenty-somethings drama
queens, with all the permutations of the not-so-Real World. It
flaunts the ridiculous and absurd lifestyles of the rich and
farmous (for the moment in MTV Cribs). It has some stupid
show that rips off American Idol which ripped off Star Search. It
has a lame-ass Candid Camera rip-off hosted by Demi Moore's
husband. The thing has become junk, having little to do with
music, or the music industry, save the name and total request.
Horrible state of affairs.

I remember when MTV and music were this synergistic force in
marketing and showcasing music. Sure, some bands
complained that the visual media was hurting pure music - you
had to be photogenic as well as musical. Yet some bands simply
thrived... Talking Heads made incredibly innovative videos and
were musically respected on top of it. REM's "Losing My
Religion" is still one of the best videos ever. Peter Gabriel did
some amazing stuff with the medium. Back then MTV was a
marketing force, but there was some real flashes of innovation,
art, and creativity.

The problem seems to be that MTV couldn't figure out how too
sell enough commercials and liked the financial returns of a half
hour block of bad programming with all the tie-ins and fixed
blocks of commercials. Greed kills creativity.

Microsoft, unfortunately is more than a decade and a half too
late. MTV has become irrelevent in the world of music.

[aristobrat]

.... when MTV was an innovative, respected, vibrant, and energetic force in music.
I think that you'd find that most younger folks still find MTV to be everything that you think it isn't.

You (like most) have grown. MTV, however, is still targeting younger folks, and as the younger folks change, so does MTV.

Think back of your life as an early teen and compare that to the life of a current early teen. Wayyyyyyy different I bet. :)

[BenRoethig]

The whole concept at this years CES is "catch-up to Apple"

Unfortunately, that's all they have to do.

[Peace]

Unfortunately, that's all they have to do.


I agree..

They are catching up to Apple..circa last year ;)

[ack_mac]

Unfortunately, that's all they have to do.

I disagree. Microsoft's stock has been flat for a long time and they have alot to lose with Vista. While true that the Xbox360 has generated a ton of press and decent sales, it is clear that there a huge number of folks (like all of Japan) waiting for the release of the PS3 before they buy their next console (myself included).

Microsoft is a much larger company than Apple and has much more market share than Apple with regards to Windows vs. OS X. They have much more to lose with Vista than Apple does with OS X. Apple has a harcore following of users who would most likely never switch to Vista no matter how great it looks, or how it performs. Microsoft has to convice millions of users that Vista is vastly superior to XP if users are going to pay big money to upgrade (although based on the hardware requirements I have seen most users will need to upgrade their PC's if they want to run Vista smoothly).

My personal opinion is that now matter how good Vista is when it is finally released, Apple will already have a superior OS to trump it with OS 10.5.

[AtHomeBoy_2000]

The ONLY M$ product I have the URGE for is Vista MCE and it's upcoming CableCard and DirecTV support. I hope that Apple can come up with something better With HD and DVR capabilities then I would really buy that!!!:D

I saw that too. THe cable card thing along with the ability to rip HDDVDs is REALLY sweet. Hopefully, Apple get's off its butt and releases a Media center on Tuesday. I'm already saving up for when they do.

[BRLawyer]

That would be the claim preferred by the people who say that "Apple invented USB". :D

Well, that's not far from truth, if you mean the first company to mass-produce USB-using computers and make them popular...I still see a lot of crappy PCs with PS/2/serial outputs...bleargh.

[BRLawyer]

By the way, in the wake of new "iPod killer" announcements at CES, I couldn't help but notice (and laugh) at Creative's "definition" of podcast, which I've found at iPodObserver...please tell me what you think about another piece of ridiculous desperation...Creative, you SUCK even harder now:

"About podcasts and video blogs
Podcasts, short for Personal On Demand broadCast, are audio files you can download into any MP3 player or computer. These audio files are broadcasted over the Internet automatically to subscribers of specific podcast channels. Video blogs are similar to podcasts, and refer to video files instead of audio files."

The source of laughter: http://www.zencast.com/about/

[Mac_Freak]

...
"About podcasts and video blogs
Podcasts, short for Personal On Demand broadCast, are audio files you can download into any MP3 player or computer. These audio files are broadcasted over the Internet automatically to subscribers of specific podcast channels. Video blogs are similar to podcasts, and refer to video files instead of audio files."....
Yeah I saw that too. I wouldn't be surprised if that explanation of word Podcast and what it stands for will actually stick around, science podcast wasn't in any way developed by Apple, it is just Adam Curry just combined iPod and Broadcast. definition by it self is true.

[BRLawyer]

Yeah I saw that too. I wouldn't be surprised if that explanation of word Podcast and what it stands for will actually stick around, science podcast wasn't in any way developed by Apple, it is just Adam Curry just combined iPod and Broadcast. definition by it self is true.

Sorry, I am not saying Apple created it; but to say that PODcast is something defined as shown by Creative's website is untrue and malicious.

Podcast comes from iPod, period. All other competitors will try to modify that, but the origin is clear.

[Mac_Freak]

Sorry, I am not saying Apple created it; but to say that PODcast is something defined as shown by Creative's website is untrue and malicious.

Podcast comes from iPod, period. All other competitors will try to modify that, but the origin is clear.

I don't think it is as much about competition as it is about clarifying this term to the consumers. By saying PODcast you imply that this has to do with something that Apple has developed but it is not.
It is not only Creative that is starting to use this term, try Wiki or even google. Personal On Demand braodCast makes much more sense than iPODbroadCAST. Also be carefull about what you read in Wiki, since Adam Curry has edited some of its descriptiopns.

I understand that this was its original name, but just try explaining podcast to somebody and you will see that you will see that people will think iPod and Apple. Remember that it is about what that technology means and does, and not what its name was inspired by.

Remember that iPod won't last forever, so it is better to give Podcast right definition now than change it later.

[SkipNewarkDE]

I think that you'd find that most younger folks still find MTV to be everything that you think it isn't.

You (like most) have grown. MTV, however, is still targeting younger folks, and as the younger folks change, so does MTV.

Think back of your life as an early teen and compare that to the life of a current early teen. Wayyyyyyy different I bet. :)

Perhaps. But I am not just viewing the company through a filter of youthful nostalgia. In the context of its relation to music, in terms of artists, creativity, marketing, etc., it has seriously diverged from its original mission, and the reasons for this are purely, and cynically market driven. MTV is more interested in selling commercials and lifestyle. As a visual showcase for artists, music, and the video medium, it no longer fulfills. It has gotten very dumb.

And as a youth, there WERE a few programs on the channel that were completely idiotic, yet still just amazingly creative - the game show Remote Control comes to mind. There was an American Bandstand-like show in the afternoon with "the black Julie Brown," (who we thought was way cooler than "the white Julie Brown"), that was all the T&A that Dick Clark couldn't get away with on his show.

Being the station now where most of it is centered around patronizing to the whims of the cool kids discussing how hard it is to live in the Real World is just annoying. Want to see a great Real World concept? Put these stupid spoiled punks in a house in the ghetto, which is all they could afford, and then make 'em go out and each get REAL jobs to pay for the rent, pay for their food, and do the stuff that people REALLY have to go through in the real world. I will bet the fireworks would be a lot more exciting than the ridiculous, keeping it 'fo real antics on that piece of garbage show.

MTV sold its soul long ago. MS is, as usual, late to the game.

[BRLawyer]

I don't think it is as much about competition as it is about clarifying this term to the consumers. By saying PODcast you imply that this has to do with something that Apple has developed but it is not.
It is not only Creative that is starting to use this term, try Wiki or even google. Personal On Demand braodCast makes much more sense than iPODbroadCAST. Also be carefull about what you read in Wiki, since Adam Curry has edited some of its descriptiopns.

I understand that this was its original name, but just try explaining podcast to somebody and you will see that you will see that people will think iPod and Apple. Remember that it is about what that technology means and does, and not what its name was inspired by.

Remember that iPod won't last forever, so it is better to give Podcast right definition now than change it later.

Sorry again, I am talking about the ORIGIN of the term, and it was based on the iPod, plain and simple.

If you wanna explain the term, you just explain it, telling that "Pod" refers to an old mp3 player that inspired it all...no need to pull acronyms out of your a**...such effort by Creative is just an attempt to take away Apple's brand power and direct it towards something more "neutral"...they went to a dictionary and searched for related words, nothing more than that...which is ridiculous anyway.

[Stonecoldcleric]

Urge is going to get stomped on by Apple so hard... it's going to hurt. :) I've said it before I will say it again: Apple is way too far ahead into the game for anyone to become remotely close.

yup...
:)

[AidenShaw]

if you mean the first company to mass-produce USB-using computers.
Interesting that you say "using", not "having". USB ports were common on PCs a year before the iMac was released - but they weren't *used* heavily until good software support came with Windows 98.

I still see a lot of crappy PCs with PS/2/serial outputs...bleargh.
And that's bad, why? Isn't *choice* a good thing?

[BRLawyer]

Interesting that you say "using", not "having". USB ports were common on PCs a year before the iMac was released - but they weren't *used* heavily until good software support came with Windows 98.


And that's bad, why? Isn't *choice* a good thing?

No, you are wrong. UBS ports were NOT common at all before the iMac...actually they took a long while AFTER the iMac debut to show up "en masse" in PCs...

As for your second remark, if you mean a "Bill Gates kinda choice", no...it isn't good to use obsolete ports in new computers...

[AidenShaw]

accidental partial post, full one below...

[AidenShaw]

No, you are wrong. UBS ports were NOT common at all before the iMac...actually they took a long while AFTER the iMac debut to show up "en masse" in PCs...
Intel's chipsets for the Pentium (original, pre MMX, with EDO or FPM, before SDRAM was available) had USB ports. (http://www.intel.com/design/chipsets/mature/430.htm)

The Intel mobos using this chipset had USB back panel connectors (http://support.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/LT430TX/sb/CS-013451.htm).

Intel and Asus boards in 1997 had USB ports (http://www.whatisnew.com/97/997.html)

Philips release, 1996 http://www-us.semiconductors.philips.com/acrobat/other/ic478.pdf
USB is going to happen
From mid 1996, Intel is shipping all its new motherboards with a pair of USB connections on them, soon followed by leading OEM’s and a host of Taiwanese motherboard suppliers.

With such a large percentage of the world market in motherboards supporting USB as well as PC chipsets (which all have USB designed into them or announced), this means that USB will become the de facto standard very quickly, especially as the cost for OEMs of adding these connectors is very small...

The USB organization says: (http://www.usb.org/about/faq/ans3/)
Q1: How do I know if my PC supports USB?
A1: ... As a quick rule of thumb, if your PC was made during or before 1996, it probably doesn't support USB.

If it was made during 1997, it probably supports USB.

If it was made during or after 1998, it almost certainly supports USB.

The iMac came in the second half of 1998, so the USB organization says that a PC made a year and a half before the iMac "probably" supports USB, and one made half a year before the iMac "almost certainly" has USB.

So my claim that "USB ports were common on PCs a year before the iMac was released" is not only correct, but it's conservative. USB.org would have said "a year and a half".... Your claim that it was "a long while AFTER" August 1998 is clearly not supported by even a cursory attempt to discover the facts in the case.

As a Lawyer, you should know to check your facts before you declare that someone is "wrong".... ;)




As for your second remark, if you mean a "Bill Gates kinda choice", no...it isn't good to use obsolete ports in new computers...
What's bad about having a violet keyboard port and a green mouse port on the back of the PC? (Especially when you have a keyboard with a violet plug and a mouse with a green plug?)

What's wrong with saving USB ports for USB addons, and reducing the chance that one will need a USB hub?

What's wrong with being able to use the PS/2 keyboard that I have, instead of being forced to buy a new one?

What's the harm in having a couple of small connectors that you don't even have to use?

What's wrong with choice?

[Zigster]

Don't underestimate the 'Soft'. After the pioneer creates the market, the second guy in with the big money does pretty well.

Content will be the key in the vpod/vlog future. Who has it? Will Apple? They can at least strike a deal with Pixar, we know that...

I'm suprised Msoft or Apple hasn't tried to acquire a library. Dreamworks stuff is up for sale...

[garfinkel]

removed

[garfinkel]

Anyone notice how close the G of URGE is ridiculously close to the Quicktime Q logo?