15.4 inch PowerBooks? [Archive]

MOM

Jan 15, 2003, 12:56 AM

I agree that the TiBook is the odd man out, but maybe Apple is playing it smart by first refreshing Tibook before Xmas to get some extra sales and then they drop the unexpected Mac World introduction of two droolworthy models to snag all those customers who where always waiting for a G4 ibook (Al12) or are in the need for a beast like the Al17. By keeping the Ti15 back, Apple may be hoping to force some sales of the Al17. This may bring in more profit and/or they may, frankly, be worried that such a large PB may be lusted after and get lots of good press, but may not sell. This way they wait to see the sales figures before releasing the Al15. Ask yourself, if the Al15 was avaiable with all the goodies of the Al17, would you buy the Al17? I love the Al17, but its a portable desktop not a portable, if you know what I mean. Just some thoughts...

FelixDerKater

Jan 15, 2003, 01:03 AM

The new 15.4" with the extra .2" will most likely accomadate the use of the same aspect ratio as the Aluminum 17" PowerBook. I'd also expect to see the 15" Aluminum to have everything the 17" notbook has other than the large screen, since 15" is large enough for many pro portable users.

redAPPLE

Jan 15, 2003, 02:37 AM

0.2"??

who needs that?

to make room for larger speakers?

:o

NicoMan

Jan 15, 2003, 03:02 AM

Originally posted by redAPPLE
0.2"??

who needs that?

to make room for larger speakers?

:o
Well that is not a bad idea. I remember one of the complaints of the TiBooks is the tiny-sounding speakers. When you see the monsters on the AluBook 17"...

Just a thought

NicoMan

kmac

Jan 15, 2003, 03:27 AM

Gaz

Jan 15, 2003, 04:23 AM

I can imagine them having a 15.4" AND and 15.2"...

Sounds crazy but as it is at the moment the 15.2" is a bit out of place in the range. However it gives people that nice possibility of using OS9.

Just have to wait and see thou........

G

Choppaface

Jan 15, 2003, 04:25 AM

bye bye OS9 booting ( he he .... :| )

Nightstalker

Jan 15, 2003, 06:10 AM

I think they kept the TiBook because of OS9 booting.

Otherwise there would be no G4 portable for ppl who require OS 9 applications.

Maybe the 15.4" is delayed until QuarkXPress for OS X is ready...?

Nightstalker

yamadataro

Jan 15, 2003, 06:28 AM

I really wish they change the casing to Aluminum. That's like the only thing I want Apple to do.

I've just got the whole case for Tibook replaced due to the very very bad paint chipping. So this is a very realistic comment, I think.

Even after the announcement of the 12&17, 15" one still is a very good computer for me, except for the *painted* titanium non-sense, of course.

BTW, my repair shop guy said it's about $450 for newer TiBooks and $225 for older ones to replace the main case part (the top gray part with the trackpad and the middle whiter part). He said the older TiBook's case is twise as expensive. I didn't as him why though.

Hmm

Jan 15, 2003, 07:01 AM

The lid on the 15.4" model might also be bigger to hold the Airport antennas.

Telomar

Jan 15, 2003, 07:06 AM

Originally posted by yamadataro
BTW, my repair shop guy said it's about $450 for newer TiBooks and $225 for older ones to replace the main case part (the top gray part with the trackpad and the middle whiter part). He said the older TiBook's case is twise as expensive.

In the first part you say the new ones are $450 and the older are $225 yet in the second part say the older version is twice as expensve.

From a materials point of view I would be a little surprised if the newer cases aren't more expensive. Ti isn't cheap as a material but they use high grade Al that is then anodized now. That is costly particularly if they aren't using room temperature methods.

theranch

Jan 15, 2003, 07:37 AM

I think it's just a misunderstanding...the new 17" powerbook is 15.4" wide so maybe there is some confusion. Why would they create a powerbook with a display size not much bigger than the 15" now? I attached a picture from the Apple powerbook page.
http://a772.g.akamai.net/7/772/51/48a61dbcae3944/www.apple.com/powerbook/images/index17design01072003.jpg

hvfsl

Jan 15, 2003, 08:17 AM

I just hope Apple keeps the ATI 9000M when they upgrade the 15in PowerBook G4, the Geoforce 4 440 GO that is in the latest PB G4s is half the speed of the ATI 9000M in some applications (Doom 3 for example).

And they need to change the metal, the paint is coming off my PB G4, and I am quite careful with it. My previous PB G3 had the same problem.

Nightstalker

Jan 15, 2003, 10:41 AM

think it's just a misunderstanding...the new 17" powerbook is 15.4" wide

good point, theranch

Silencio

Jan 15, 2003, 11:32 AM

The measurements being bandied about refer to the diagonal width of the screen, not the width of the entire Powerbook.

It's possible to fit a 15.4" screen within the same form factor as the existing TiBooks: the bezel surrounding the screen will get a little more narrow.

I'm kind of the same mind: I was enthusiastic about the last revision of the 15" TiBook, but the introduction of the 12" and 17" AlBooks dampened it quite a bit despite the $200 price drops. Now I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop, and it probably will drop in February if MOSR is to be believed.

pgwalsh

Jan 15, 2003, 01:15 PM

Others have asked, but no one will know for a little while I guess. How hot will these get on our lap? I know the previous models got extremely hot. Hot enought to fry and egg from what I've heard. I wonder if the new case will aid or shield the heat?

szark

Jan 15, 2003, 01:31 PM

I've seen comments from people who used the new ABooks at the Expo that the 12" was very hot but the 17" wasn't.

jamilecrire

Jan 15, 2003, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by MOM
I agree that the TiBook is the odd man out, but maybe Apple is playing it smart by first refreshing Tibook before Xmas to get some extra sales and then they drop the unexpected Mac World introduction of two droolworthy models to snag all those customers who where always waiting for a G4 ibook (Al12) or are in the need for a beast like the Al17. By keeping the Ti15 back, Apple may be hoping to force some sales of the Al17. This may bring in more profit and/or they may, frankly, be worried that such a large PB may be lusted after and get lots of good press, but may not sell. This way they wait to see the sales figures before releasing the Al15. Ask yourself, if the Al15 was avaiable with all the goodies of the Al17, would you buy the Al17? I love the Al17, but its a portable desktop not a portable, if you know what I mean. Just some thoughts...

It's really not that much larger than the 15.2" TiBook. Go to an apple store and check it out.

If you don't have an apple store convenient (like I dont) you can always tape 2 11x8.5 pieces of notebook paper together and cut it to the dimensions of the 17" then youll see (note: i'm embarrased to admit I did this). I'm driving to my "local" apple store this weekend to check it out, it's only a 3 hour drive (gotta love the midwest).

pgwalsh

Jan 15, 2003, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by szark
I've seen comments from people who used the new ABooks at the Expo that the 12" was very hot but the 17" wasn't. That's odd!?! The 12" has a proc with a lower frequency. Unless they're using something new, say the 7457 and that's why they haven't shipped them.

pgwalsh

Jan 15, 2003, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by jamilecrire

It's really not that much larger than the 15.2" TiBook. Go to an apple store and check it out.

If you don't have an apple store convenient (like I dont) you can always tape 2 11x8.5 pieces of notebook paper together and cut it to the dimensions of the 17" then youll see (note: i'm embarrased to admit I did this). I'm driving to my "local" apple store this weekend to check it out, it's only a 3 hour drive (gotta love the midwest). You did call to make sure they have one to show you, right?

markseaton

Jan 15, 2003, 01:51 PM

As a retail salesman in a large Canadian chain i have to say that more and more ppl are buying the larger screens then the smaller the trend to have a small laptop that litterly fits in your lap is long gone everyone that comes in wants a big screen with a fast CPU!.
It used to be 14" as the standard but now it's 15" with 16" pushing it's was into this postion so apples push to the 17" is the right idea and i expect it to get many sales over the comming months.

peaple dont want to have a basestation or cables to unplug everytime they leave work with there laptops.

Imagine picking up your blue tooth equipt laptop from your work station that has a bluetooth keyboard and mouse and a WiFi network then simply unpluging the power and walk away, you get home and before you even step in the house your laptop has all your new e-mail and your printer starts to warm up you sit down infront of you big tv to watch the hacky game and during breaks you work on that keynote you have for tomorow

pgwalsh

Jan 15, 2003, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by markseaton
As a retail salesman in a large Canadian chain i have to say that more and more ppl are buying the larger screens then the smaller the trend to have a small laptop that litterly fits in your lap is long gone everyone that comes in wants a big screen with a fast CPU!.
It used to be 14" as the standard but now it's 15" with 16" pushing it's was into this postion so apples push to the 17" is the right idea and i expect it to get many sales over the comming months.

peaple dont want to have a basestation or cables to unplug everytime they leave work with there laptops.

Imagine picking up your blue tooth equipt laptop from your work station that has a bluetooth keyboard and mouse and a WiFi network then simply unpluging the power and walk away, you get home and before you even step in the house your laptop has all your new e-mail and your printer starts to warm up you sit down infront of you big tv to watch the hacky game and during breaks you work on that keynote you have for tomorow You make it sound soooooo..... goooooood.

iSmell

Jan 15, 2003, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by jamilecrire
I'm driving to my "local" apple store this weekend to check it out, it's only a 3 hour drive (gotta love the midwest).

I went to the Apple Store at Crossgates in Albany last Friday to see if they had them in and the salesman there said they probably wouldn't have them for two or three more weeks, so I would definitely call ahead before you make a long trip to the "local" store.

It makes some sense that the 12" would get hotter than the 17" because it has less area to dissipate heat over, even though it's running a little slower.

iShater

Jan 15, 2003, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by jamilecrire

I'm driving to my "local" apple store this weekend to check it out, it's only a 3 hour drive (gotta love the midwest).

Which MidWest store are you going to?

Centris 650

Jan 15, 2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Rocketman

It seems my boss told me I am REQUIRED to use a new Al17 when they come in. I politely agreed to heed his order. :)

Rocketman

Aww man. I want a boss like that!

fred_lj

Jan 15, 2003, 05:34 PM

Hi, I just thought I'd add that (courtesy AppleInsider's DHagan4755) the reason for the 15.4" screen is that Samsung is moving to that for its new 15" WXGA standard (it was published in article that they would be releasing 15.4 and 17-inch screens in late January). This puts both screens at exactly the same resolution rather than the strange resolution currently in the 15.2-inch model. (Thus, apple would have a streamlined display offering -- iMac LCD and PowerBook's LCD).

http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/Article.asp?datePublish=2003/01/09&pages=01&seq=1

Just thought this might clear up some confusion.

fred_lj

Jan 15, 2003, 05:35 PM

Hi, I just thought I'd add that (courtesy AppleInsider's DHagan4755) the reason for the 15.4" screen is that Samsung is moving to that for its new 15" WXGA standard (it was published in article that they would be releasing 15.4 and 17-inch screens in late January). This puts both screens at exactly the same resolution rather than the strange resolution currently in the 15.2-inch model. (Thus, apple would have a streamlined display offering -- iMac LCD and PowerBook's LCD).

http://pcworld.shopping.yahoo.com/yahoo/article/0,aid,106577,00.asp

Just thought this might clear up some confusion.

(sorry, wrong link originally)

yamadataro

Jan 15, 2003, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Telomar

In the first part you say the new ones are $450 and the older are $225 yet in the second part say the older version is twice as expensve.

Sorry! My mind was messed up ;)
The $450 case is for the older TiBooks.

NicoMan

Jan 16, 2003, 06:32 AM

Originally posted by fred_lj
Hi, I just thought I'd add that (courtesy AppleInsider's DHagan4755) the reason for the 15.4" screen is that Samsung is moving to that for its new 15" WXGA standard (it was published in article that they would be releasing 15.4 and 17-inch screens in late January). This puts both screens at exactly the same resolution rather than the strange resolution currently in the 15.2-inch model. (Thus, apple would have a streamlined display offering -- iMac LCD and PowerBook's LCD).

http://pcworld.shopping.yahoo.com/yahoo/article/0,aid,106577,00.asp

Just thought this might clear up some confusion.

(sorry, wrong link originally)
I suppose you noticed, but they are also talking in the article about a prototype 15.4" TFT (for notebooks) displaying 1920*1200...

Oh dear...

NicoMan

benixau

Jan 16, 2003, 10:02 AM

oh no!!! there is an ant on my screen!!!!. oh sorry screen that is the mouse. oops :D

1920x1200. i dont run that on my 19"(18.1") CRT let alone a 15.4" laptop. i guess if you are using phtoshop or pro tools then you need that sort of resolution.

notice on the presentation of pro tools 6 that he had about half his windows minimized, on a 23" HD!!!!!!

pro tools uses so much screen space that you would need to be maing some cash to pay for the screens!!!!!

fred_lj

Jan 16, 2003, 10:02 AM

Yeah, that doesn't seem like a wise move --- talk about eyestrain. I would be all for the somewhat lower resolution if Apple chooses the WXGA 15.4" screen (which I pray they do); I'd rather have the proper widescreen ratio than the hi-res looker.

NicoMan

Jan 16, 2003, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by fred_lj
Yeah, that doesn't seem like a wise move --- talk about eyestrain. I would be all for the somewhat lower resolution if Apple chooses the WXGA 15.4" screen (which I pray they do); I'd rather have the proper widescreen ratio than the hi-res looker.
15.4" at 1280*800 sounds good to me. It means that Apple are standardizing the ratio 16*10 across their product line which is good...
1920*1200 on a 15.4"?? That seems ridiculous to me. What is the point?

NicoMan

frozenstar

Jan 16, 2003, 12:31 PM

The 15.4" panel in the new PowerBook will come off the 5th generation LCD production line. So, in addition to the added screen space and 16:10 ratio, we can also expect improved response time, contrast ratio, and brightness.

SmileyDude

Jan 16, 2003, 05:03 PM

1920*1200 on a 15.4"?? That seems ridiculous to me. What is the point?

Well, it's been predicted for years that displays were moving to higher DPIs... but, until OS X, there was no operating system support for these higher DPIs... with Quartz, Apple can have the display rendered at a higher resolution, which makes things look much nicer on the display, and without making you have to squint at the screen.

128x128 icons were just the beginning...

frozenstar

Jan 16, 2003, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by NicoMan
1920*1200 on a 15.4"?? That seems ridiculous to me. What is the point?

Just think... once we hit resolutions like 2880x1800, pictures displayed on LCDs will be comparable in quality to 35mm photographs.

Graphics engines are only a couple generations away from being able to render true photorealistic images. Once the display technology catches up, you can replace your living room window with an LCD of equivalent size and program it to display any type of background you want. To the human eye, it will appear entirely real.

By the time LCDs reach those resolutions though, graphics engines will have advanced to the point where they will be able to render photorealistic images at very high frame rates in real-time. THAT will be fun.

pkkrusty

Jan 16, 2003, 08:56 PM

Seems to me the 15.4 inch PB will simply move the Ti15 to the new design, with the Al casing, and the iBook like hinge. The ports will probably move to the side, antenna will move to the screen, etc.

yosoyjay

Jan 16, 2003, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by frozenstar

Just think... once we hit resolutions like 2880x1800, pictures displayed on LCDs will be comparable in quality to 35mm photographs.

You know I've never pondered or foresaw this at all. This is would be very cool especially with 3d screens.

Abstract

Jan 16, 2003, 11:27 PM

The reason the new 15" powerbooks didn't come out at the same time as the 17" book is because Apple didn't want to cannabalize the sales figure of the 17" books when they knew that if people saw a 15.4" PB beside a 17" PB, and saw the price difference, that most people would think that 15.4" was more than suitable for the work they were doing. So they released the 12" and 17" PB's to give them an opportunity to sell and get publicity before the 15.4" is released. This is what the majority of people want. Most of you want it, and you are all knowledgeable computer people, otherwise you wouldn't be sitting here wasting your lives away at a Mac message board, right? ;)

When people look at the 15.2" PB standing beside the NEW 12" and the NEW 17" PB's, they're not going to go and buy the 15" PB. Some people will, but I'm sure that Apple expected this. When the 15.4" PB comes out, not only will the 12" and 17" PB excitement and hoopla end, they will have had time to produce enough of the new and unreleased 15.4" PB's to fill demand. They probably have them in their storage right now, but not enough of them to fill demand. Again, they wanted to push their new models because once the 15.4" PB's come out, sales for the 17" will drop if not only for the price difference alone.

john123

Jan 16, 2003, 11:35 PM

"New" appeal aside, why do you guys want a 15.4" PowerBook? Yes, the area is bigger, but it is rumored to have FEWER vertical pixels. You care about aspect ratio over total pixels???

Maybe some of you find Bluetooth (for which there is an optional adapter now) and FW800 (for which only LaCie, I believe is making drives, and which is mostly unnecessary since the bandwidth of FW400 is rarely saturated) to be impressive...but honestly, other than bragging rights, why would you want a "new" 15" PB over the current one?

frozenstar

Jan 16, 2003, 11:54 PM

fred_lj

Jan 17, 2003, 07:30 AM

It's just what's in the product pipeline. :)

NicoMan

Jan 17, 2003, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by frozenstar

Just think... once we hit resolutions like 2880x1800, pictures displayed on LCDs will be comparable in quality to 35mm photographs.

Graphics engines are only a couple generations away from being able to render true photorealistic images. Once the display technology catches up, you can replace your living room window with an LCD of equivalent size and program it to display any type of background you want. To the human eye, it will appear entirely real.

By the time LCDs reach those resolutions though, graphics engines will have advanced to the point where they will be able to render photorealistic images at very high frame rates in real-time. THAT will be fun.

I agree that at that point in the future (when we get to n-th generation graphics engine capable of driving 2880*1800 in 50 fps frame rate in UT2007 or Doom5) well it will be brilliant. But for now what portable graphics subsystem are you going to use to drive 1920*1200 on your laptop (bearing in mind that Apple chose GeForce4Go 440 (wtf?) for their 17"...) with acceptable performance.

I'm also very much excited by the prospect of next-generation Macs using IBM 970s. But for now Apple desktops are lagging...
(oops... second time I get carried away today. But you guys get my point)

NicoMan

NicoMan

Jan 17, 2003, 07:44 AM

Originally posted by john123
"New" appeal aside, why do you guys want a 15.4" PowerBook? Yes, the area is bigger, but it is rumored to have FEWER vertical pixels. You care about aspect ratio over total pixels???

Maybe some of you find Bluetooth (for which there is an optional adapter now) and FW800 (for which only LaCie, I believe is making drives, and which is mostly unnecessary since the bandwidth of FW400 is rarely saturated) to be impressive...but honestly, other than bragging rights, why would you want a "new" 15" PB over the current one?

The only thing thing I can think of is DDR Ram (even though it is not true DDR usage, you know that, I know that, but it looks good on paper) and Airport Extreme. Apart from that, just bragging about having a brand new AluBook 15". Other than that, I dunno. I agree with you on that pixel count stuff, but standardizing aspect ratio is vital for visual consistency (think video editing, think games...). We shall see.

NicoMan

MacKid

Jan 17, 2003, 10:32 PM

Originally posted by NicoMan

The only thing thing I can think of is DDR Ram (even though it is not true DDR usage, you know that, I know that, but it looks good on paper) and Airport Extreme. Apart from that, just bragging about having a brand new AluBook 15". Other than that, I dunno. I agree with you on that pixel count stuff, but standardizing aspect ratio is vital for visual consistency (think video editing, think games...). We shall see.

NicoMan

I agree with what what you said, but for people who have an Ericsson or a Tungsten T or a (insert Bluetooth device here), it makes one less out of the PowerBook's two USB ports to fill, and for AirPort Extreme, it will mostly benefit people with cable internet or some T1+ connection. And in terms of screen real estate, I'd take a Widescreen TV over a traditional letterbox with 1-3 more inches anyday (but that's just my personal DVD viewing preference).:D ;)

wrc fan

Jan 19, 2003, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by john123
"New" appeal aside, why do you guys want a 15.4" PowerBook? Yes, the area is bigger, but it is rumored to have FEWER vertical pixels. You care about aspect ratio over total pixels???

Maybe some of you find Bluetooth (for which there is an optional adapter now) and FW800 (for which only LaCie, I believe is making drives, and which is mostly unnecessary since the bandwidth of FW400 is rarely saturated) to be impressive...but honestly, other than bragging rights, why would you want a "new" 15" PB over the current one?

My two choices as far as price goes are a 12 inch or a 15 inch. The reason why I'm waiting for the 15 inch to be updated instead of going for the 12 inch or getting the 15 inch now are:

ATA 100 (15 inch is ATA 66)
Gigabit Ethernet (12 inch is 10/100)
ADC (12 inch only has VGA)
FireWire 800 (if I'm gonna buy a new computer it might as well support the latest standards, you can still attach the original FireWire to it so why not?)
Airport Extreme (already have a Base Station on order not just for 802.11g, but the built in print server and external antenna)

NicoMan

Jan 20, 2003, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by MacKid

I agree with what what you said, but for people who have an Ericsson or a Tungsten T or a (insert Bluetooth device here), it makes one less out of the PowerBook's two USB ports to fill, and for AirPort Extreme, it will mostly benefit people with cable internet or some T1+ connection. And in terms of screen real estate, I'd take a Widescreen TV over a traditional letterbox with 1-3 more inches anyday (but that's just my personal DVD viewing preference).:D ;)
Agreed on Bluetooth (I didn't think of the USB port being freed by Bluetooth... good one), Airport Extreme and Widescreen Format. That being said, we were talking about the merits of the (rumoured) new PowerBook 15" compared to the old 15" (which is also wide format). I definitely prefer 16:10 over 4:3 too.

NicoMan

jokkka

Jan 20, 2003, 11:39 AM

The 1GHz Superdrived Ti15 now is $2799 I believe. When they switch the 15" to Aluminium will the price get bumped even without upgrading the processor speed (which I don't think they'll be doing will since I expect the Al15 to come out too soon to up the processor speed)? The price increase would be a result of the bluetooth, AirX, and stuff, but I think the price will debut at $2999. What do y'all think?

NicoMan

Jan 20, 2003, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by jokkka
The 1GHz Superdrived Ti15 now is $2799 I believe. When they switch the 15" to Aluminium will the price get bumped even without upgrading the processor speed (which I don't think they'll be doing will since I expect the Al15 to come out too soon to up the processor speed)? The price increase would be a result of the bluetooth, AirX, and stuff, but I think the price will debut at $2999. What do y'all think?

That feels too expensive. I don't think they will bump the price up. It would be too close to the 17". If anything I would expect the price to be slightly lower. Now THAT is wishful thinking.:D

NicoMan

MacKid

Jan 20, 2003, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by NicoMan

That feels too expensive. I don't think they will bump the price up. It would be too close to the 17". If anything I would expect the price to be slightly lower. Now THAT is wishful thinking.:D

NicoMan

I think the price will either be the same or lower, because Apple's strategy for pricing is to upgrade and raise the technology, but not the prices.:D

john123

Jan 23, 2003, 10:56 AM

This is incorrect.

The better summary of Apple's laptop pricing strategy over the past few years is one of cycles...new models tend to bump prices UP, while the subsequent revisions are often done concurrent with a DECREASE in price.

Check out the debut prices for the entire range of PowerBook G4s.

I'd suspect $2999 would be the price. And I wouldn't expect to see that laptop any time soon. There are a lot of us (me me me) who love the 15" the way it is for OS 9 booting. And few of you really want or need FW800 or BlueTooth -- you just want it for "being cool" purposes. (Don't flame me...I said "few," not "none")

frozenstar

Jan 23, 2003, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by john123
This is incorrect.

The better summary of Apple's laptop pricing strategy over the past few years is one of cycles...new models tend to bump prices UP, while the subsequent revisions are often done concurrent with a DECREASE in price.

Check out the debut prices for the entire range of PowerBook G4s.

I'd suspect $2999 would be the price. And I wouldn't expect to see that laptop any time soon. There are a lot of us (me me me) who love the 15" the way it is for OS 9 booting. And few of you really want or need FW800 or BlueTooth -- you just want it for "being cool" purposes. (Don't flame me...I said "few," not "none")

Your logic is flawed. You have failed to take into account the addition of a new top-end model in the PowerBook line-up. The new 17" model has an impact on pricing for the soon-to-be-released 15.4" model(s). So past pricing strategies don't necessarily apply here.

And it's not just about FW800 and Bluetooth. There are many more important upgrades on the 17" and 15.4" models - aluminum shell, faster front-side and memory bus, 16:10 aspect ratio display, 802.11g, improved RF reception, and ambient light sensors.

And by the way... Even if you personally don't expect the new 15.4" model(s) to arrive soon. All of the available information says otherwise.

yzedf

Jan 23, 2003, 02:42 PM

of the screen.

geeesh guys/gals.

macdiehard

Jan 23, 2003, 03:02 PM

My take on big screen notebooks is why pay the premium when you can buy a really good external monitor almost for the price differencial.

I like having a very portable machine for travel and a big monitor to work on at my desk. I am deciding between a 12 inch plus a 19 inch Viewsonic monitor and maybe the 15 inch if they upgrade it.

The 17 inch is too high resolution for me to work on everyday, text would be too small and I'd have to increase the font size on applications.

I hate the ergonomics of working on notebooks. With an external keyboard and monitor I have great ergonomics for day to day use.

I guess the 17 inch is fantastic for people who have to work on site at different locations all the time or people i.e their office is really mobile and they want the comfort of a big screen - video professionals etc.

I think the 17 won't sell that well.

Macdiehard

macdiehard

Jan 23, 2003, 03:12 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NicoMan
[B]

That feels too expensive. I don't think they will bump the price up. It would be too close to the 17". If anything I would expect the price to be slightly lower. Now THAT is wishful thinking.:D

I tend to agree. Also you are right about bragging rights. At the end of the day you have to ask will the new technology make you more productive. If they upgrade the 15 inch then the current $2800 will drop a few hundred bucks - could be a very good buy.

I am getting my wife a PB 600 mhz for $1950 with free Ram upgrade, you can make smart purchases like this while others pay over the top to have the latest and greatest.

oswizrd

Jan 23, 2003, 04:23 PM

Hi all,
about 3 years ago I switched to the dark side from an old blueberry ibook to an intel laptop (running Linux), although I sometimes I have to work on the macs at my school. The main reason for switching was screen real state so I got one with a nice 15.4" display at1280x1024 (mind you this is a 3 yr old laptop and it has more pixels that the brand new 17" PB, for god's sake). The ibook felt too cramped. I'm in the market for a new laptop and I was wondering what is the expected resolution for the upcoming 15 PB.

I've seen some posts that it could be1280x800 and that people is happy with that. I was wondering why Apple doesn't offer better resolution than that. And yes I have had plenty of opportunities to compare the current 15.2" TiBook with my old brick of a laptop under the same lighting conditions and I still would prefer mine. It is crisper and clearer.

I've seen here quite a few posts saying that nobody wants higher screen resolutions, that that is just plain stupid and I fail to understand the rationale behind that. Apple displays are stuck at 100ppi. Digital photographic work demands between 200ppi and 300ppi. For instance if you had one of the brand new NEC QXGA display (with near 200ppi) you could start doing the kind of work that you can only do in high end workstations now, and if you want to drive the display at a lower "aparent" resolution the OS could still show everything at XGA resolution but everything would be 4 times clearer and crisper. That's why we have truly scalable font types, isn't it? and scalable icons and such.

So to make a long story short. Why everybody wants to buy 600dpi printers instead of dot matrix ones but are happy with low resolution displays? It can't be just money. According to this
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,106577,00.asp
a 1600x1200 display costs $30-40 dollars more to manufacture compared to a 1280x1024 one.

If Apple doesn't do something about, my money would go to the dark side again. My only gripe is that it seems NEC is not selling those laptops in the US market yet, so I will have to wait for Sony or IBM to offer them here.

Thanks

john123

Jan 23, 2003, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by frozenstar

Your logic is flawed. You have failed to take into account the addition of a new top-end model in the PowerBook line-up. The new 17" model has an impact on pricing for the soon-to-be-released 15.4" model(s). So past pricing strategies don't necessarily apply here.

And it's not just about FW800 and Bluetooth. There are many more important upgrades on the 17" and 15.4" models - aluminum shell, faster front-side and memory bus, 16:10 aspect ratio display, 802.11g, improved RF reception, and ambient light sensors.

And by the way... Even if you personally don't expect the new 15.4" model(s) to arrive soon. All of the available information says otherwise.

My logic is hardly flawed. Haha! I did take it into account. It's just another product introduction of a new high-end model. That the screen size was one of the feature bumps with this one hardly invalidates the clearly cyclic pattern.

Perhaps my argument was too advanced for you to comprehend...

In any event, speaking of logic, you're assuming lots of things about the "rumored" 15.4" PB -- that it will get a faster bus and all the features of the 17" PB to be specific. Big, big assumptions based on rumors.

Not to mention the fact that a lot of the "features" you are touting don't matter much. It is widely known that the current line of G4s does not take advantage of DDR-RAM's capabilities...in technology, implementation is everything.

The real advantage in terms of performance of the new 17" PowerBooks is the faster frontside bus, but that's mittigated by the use of the NVIDIA GeForce 440, which is an inferior graphics card to the ATI Radeon 9000.

There is really a paucity of information on new models to come -- as always. You need to learn the difference between "fact-based news" and "rumors" before you go off trying to insult someone.

Noobs....

frozenstar

Jan 23, 2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by john123

My logic is hardly flawed. Haha! I did take it into account. It's just another product introduction of a new high-end model. That the screen size was one of the feature bumps with this one hardly invalidates the clearly cyclic pattern.

Perhaps my argument was too advanced for you to comprehend...

In any event, speaking of logic, you're assuming lots of things about the "rumored" 15.4" PB -- that it will get a faster bus and all the features of the 17" PB to be specific. Big, big assumptions based on rumors.

Not to mention the fact that a lot of the "features" you are touting don't matter much. It is widely known that the current line of G4s does not take advantage of DDR-RAM's capabilities...in technology, implementation is everything.

The real advantage in terms of performance of the new 17" PowerBooks is the faster frontside bus, but that's mittigated by the use of the NVIDIA GeForce 440, which is an inferior graphics card to the ATI Radeon 9000.

There is really a paucity of information on new models to come -- as always. You need to learn the difference between "fact-based news" and "rumors" before you go off trying to insult someone.

Noobs....

You claim to have taken a specific bit of information into account, yet your analysis and prediction of the PowerBook line-up failed to mention it at all.

You are correct in that I mistakenly implied that a particular rumor is indeed a fact. However, there is so much information from so many different sources regarding the release of a 15.4" PowerBook that, in my opinion, it can be safely assumed that it will be released, and that the release date will be within the next 60 days. With all of the available information on hand, it is difficult for me to understand how you don't agree.

A lot of features I mentioned don't matter much? Of all of the features I mentioned, you were only able to comment negatively on one. And it just so happens that early benchmark results of the 17" PowerBook show that the added bandwidth of the DDR memory has a significant impact on performance.

Regarding the use of insults... I made no attempt to insult you. I simply stated my opinions, which happened to be in opposition to yours.
It appears that you are the one who has departed from strict argumentation and reverted to the use of baseless insults such as "Perhaps my argument was too advanced for you to comprehend..." and "Noobs....".

I did no such thing.

john123

Jan 23, 2003, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by frozenstar

You claim to have taken a specific bit of information into account, yet your analysis and prediction of the PowerBook line-up failed to mention it at all.

You are correct in that I mistakenly implied that a particular rumor is indeed a fact. However, there is so much information from so many different sources regarding the release of a 15.4" PowerBook that, in my opinion, it can be safely assumed that it will be released, and that the release date will be within the next 60 days. With all of the available information on hand, it is difficult for me to understand how you don't agree.

A lot of features I mentioned don't matter much? Of all of the features I mentioned, you were only able to comment negatively on one. And it just so happens that early benchmark results of the 17" PowerBook show that the added bandwidth of the DDR memory has a significant impact on performance.

Regarding the use of insults... I made no attempt to insult you. I simply stated my opinions, which happened to be in opposition to yours.
It appears that you are the one who has departed from strict argumentation and reverted to the use of baseless insults such as "Perhaps my argument was too advanced for you to comprehend..." and "Noobs....".

I did no such thing.

Okay, look kid. Let me explain it all to you in terms that (hopefully) you can comprehend:

(1) If you want to allege that multiple sources are verifying the existence of a 15.4" screen, back it up. What are they and, more specifically, what evidence do you have that those multiple sources (and I don't mean multiple message boards) did not all stem from a single piece of information?

(2) Okay, you want me to knock on all the features you mentioned? Cool. My personal pleasure.
* DDR-RAM -- you cited early benchmarks. Haha. What benchmarks -- Xbench? If you know anything about Xbench, you know that it is not only a poor proxy for real-world performance but also is EXTREMELY sensitive to the version of Xbench used. From 1.0b3 to 1.0b7, I've experienced oodles of variation in the scores on my TiGhz PB. There's been lots of discussion about the accuracy of preliminary tests, and time will tell which of us is right. It is a well-known fact, however, that the implementation of DDR-RAM in the current line of G4s is far from optimal.
* FireWire800 -- great, the bandwidth of FireWire400 is rarely saturated with its existing devices. Big whoop.
* Bluetooth -- some folks will care about it. I don't have an T68i phone or whatever it is, and if I did, I could buy an optional adapter.
* Airport Extreme -- by far the best upgrade to the PowerBooks. Unfortunately, for those of us using Airport in the home, it will only help with reception as the movement to 802.11g and its "five times faster" speed won't help one iota for those of us on a fractional T1 or slower.
* Aluminum -- time will tell whether it's better or worse than titanium in terms of stress. Hardly a feature until its proven to be superior.
* Aspect ratio -- great, I will lose 54 vertical pixels for the sake of aspect ratio. That's a downgrade in my book.
* Light -- wow, I can get a lava lamp for 50 bucks. Far cooler.

You also IGNORED that the NVIDIA card is inferior to the ATI card.

In any event, it was the WAY in which you stated your opinions that irked me. They were accusatory, and I fired back.

You deserved it.

frozenstar

Jan 23, 2003, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by john123

Okay, look kid. Let me explain it all to you in terms that (hopefully) you can comprehend:

(1) If you want to allege that multiple sources are verifying the existence of a 15.4" screen, back it up. What are they and, more specifically, what evidence do you have that those multiple sources (and I don't mean multiple message boards) did not all stem from a single piece of information?

(2) Okay, you want me to knock on all the features you mentioned? Cool. My personal pleasure.
* DDR-RAM -- you cited early benchmarks. Haha. What benchmarks -- Xbench? If you know anything about Xbench, you know that it is not only a poor proxy for real-world performance but also is EXTREMELY sensitive to the version of Xbench used. From 1.0b3 to 1.0b7, I've experienced oodles of variation in the scores on my TiGhz PB. There's been lots of discussion about the accuracy of preliminary tests, and time will tell which of us is right. It is a well-known fact, however, that the implementation of DDR-RAM in the current line of G4s is far from optimal.
* FireWire800 -- great, the bandwidth of FireWire400 is rarely saturated with its existing devices. Big whoop.
* Bluetooth -- some folks will care about it. I don't have an T68i phone or whatever it is, and if I did, I could buy an optional adapter.
* Airport Extreme -- by far the best upgrade to the PowerBooks. Unfortunately, for those of us using Airport in the home, it will only help with reception as the movement to 802.11g and its "five times faster" speed won't help one iota for those of us on a fractional T1 or slower.
* Aluminum -- time will tell whether it's better or worse than titanium in terms of stress. Hardly a feature until its proven to be superior.
* Aspect ratio -- great, I will lose 54 vertical pixels for the sake of aspect ratio. That's a downgrade in my book.
* Light -- wow, I can get a lava lamp for 50 bucks. Far cooler.

You also IGNORED that the NVIDIA card is inferior to the ATI card.

In any event, it was the WAY in which you stated your opinions that irked me. They were accusatory, and I fired back.

You deserved it.

There you go again, reverting to the use of petty insults. And you call me a kid...

I didn't ignore anything. I simply never raised the issue of graphics superiority in the new PowerBooks. I don't disagree with you regarding it.

As for the rest, everything you've stated is a matter of opinion. None of it applies to everyone, so I'm not even going to bother arguing those points with you.

Enough is enough. Stop being so defensive, and consider treating people with some respect.

yzedf

Jan 23, 2003, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by john123

* DDR-RAM -- you cited early benchmarks. Haha. What benchmarks -- Xbench? If you know anything about Xbench, you know that it is not only a poor proxy for real-world performance but also is EXTREMELY sensitive to the version of Xbench used. From 1.0b3 to 1.0b7, I've experienced oodles of variation in the scores on my TiGhz PB. There's been lots of discussion about the accuracy of preliminary tests, and time will tell which of us is right. It is a well-known fact, however, that the implementation of DDR-RAM in the current line of G4s is far from optimal.
* FireWire800 -- great, the bandwidth of FireWire400 is rarely saturated with its existing devices. Big whoop.
* Bluetooth -- some folks will care about it. I don't have an T68i phone or whatever it is, and if I did, I could buy an optional adapter.
* Airport Extreme -- by far the best upgrade to the PowerBooks. Unfortunately, for those of us using Airport in the home, it will only help with reception as the movement to 802.11g and its "five times faster" speed won't help one iota for those of us on a fractional T1 or slower.
* Aluminum -- time will tell whether it's better or worse than titanium in terms of stress. Hardly a feature until its proven to be superior.
* Aspect ratio -- great, I will lose 54 vertical pixels for the sake of aspect ratio. That's a downgrade in my book.
* Light -- wow, I can get a lava lamp for 50 bucks. Far cooler.

You also IGNORED that the NVIDIA card is inferior to the ATI card.

In any event, it was the WAY in which you stated your opinions that irked me. They were accusatory, and I fired back.

You deserved it.

DDR - doesn't seem to be of much use in the PowerMac so far.

FW800 - I agree.

BT - Exactly. Thank you for stating the obvious.

AE - Only useful for in my subnet transfers. I can't max out my 802.11b connection on my cable modem that is much faster than a T1.

Aluminum - Biggest thing to me is no paint to chip. Structurally speaking, it is like the skin of a human; just keeping things in place.

Aspect - Loss of pixels does irritate me as well. I need the vertical space... it is how I prefer.

Keyboard - Indeed a waste of time/resources/money.

nVidia vs. ATi is a old debate. I have had better luck with nVidia myself...

IMO, the updated Al-Books are only notable due to size and lack of paint. *sigh*

frozenstar

Jan 23, 2003, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by yzedf

DDR - doesn't seem to be of much use in the PowerMac so far.

FW800 - I agree.

BT - Exactly. Thank you for stating the obvious.

AE - Only useful for in my subnet transfers. I can't max out my 802.11b connection on my cable modem that is much faster than a T1.

Aluminum - Biggest thing to me is no paint to chip. Structurally speaking, it is like the skin of a human; just keeping things in place.

Aspect - Loss of pixels does irritate me as well. I need the vertical space... it is how I prefer.

Keyboard - Indeed a waste of time/resources/money.

nVidia vs. ATi is a old debate. I have had better luck with nVidia myself...

IMO, the updated Al-Books are only notable due to size and lack of paint. *sigh*

I wasn't going to continue this, but since someone else posted their opinions, I'll respond.

FW800 - Agreed.

Bluetooth - Integrated bluetooth is very important to me. Bluetooth adapters are a huge nuisance. They add size to the laptop, and they need to be inserted everytime you want to use them. Anyone that uses bluetooth frequently will agree.

802.11g - My internet connection tops out at 6mbps. At my current distance from the access point, I can get no better than 3mbps. Enough said.

Aluminum - Don't forget, this is airplane-grade, anodized aluminum alloy. Very different from ordinary aluminum. No more paint chipping, and you may even find that it is stronger than the titanium shells.

Aspect ratio - Considering that 1280x800 will be the new widescreen standard for 15" LCDs, I'll take it over the non-standard 1280x854 in the current PowerBooks.

Keyboard - The backlit keyboard is nothing to write home about, but it's certainly a welcome feature.

john123

Jan 24, 2003, 12:01 AM

Okay, so let's balance this out.

We have new PowerBooks that we seem to agree are more convenient (albeit not more capable) due to built-in BlueTooth, POSSIBLY more durable and LIKELY better from a cosmetic perspective due to aluminum, and COOLER due to a keyboard that lights up (I remember using glowsticks at concerts when I was a teenybopper...I guess this is the modern-day equivalent for grown-ups).

And on the other hand, we have some PowerBooks that will boot in OS 9 (yay for compatibility!), are battle-tested now being in their 4th generation, and have a clearly superior piece of graphic HARDWARE (this puts the drivers issue to the side for now).

So it seems to me we're talking about -- and let's EVERYONE try to be honest -- two different audiences. I think that's why Apple kept the 15" the way it was in the first place -- not due to a glut in inventory, but that the 1Ghz Ti will offer to Mac users the laptop analog of the 1.25 dual G4s that will remain in existence until summer of this year.

I bought mine, and despite my occasional desire to sell mine to get a bit higher screen real estate, reason prevails over me. I'll wait until we are talking about an upgrade in both resolution and graphics chip, as well as a bumped up processor on a .13 micron board.

My 2 cents...

And to frozenstar...sorry for letting it get personal. However, what kind of connection do you have where you get consistent bandwidth of over a megabye per second? That's what 11 mbps translates to in MB...we have a half T1 at my office and I never get even close to that kind of throughput (and I set up the network!).

frozenstar

Jan 24, 2003, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by john123
Okay, so let's balance this out.

We have new PowerBooks that we seem to agree are more convenient (albeit not more capable) due to built-in BlueTooth, POSSIBLY more durable and LIKELY better from a cosmetic perspective due to aluminum, and COOLER due to a keyboard that lights up (I remember using glowsticks at concerts when I was a teenybopper...I guess this is the modern-day equivalent for grown-ups).

And on the other hand, we have some PowerBooks that will boot in OS 9 (yay for compatibility!), are battle-tested now being in their 4th generation, and have a clearly superior piece of graphic HARDWARE (this puts the drivers issue to the side for now).

So it seems to me we're talking about -- and let's EVERYONE try to be honest -- two different audiences. I think that's why Apple kept the 15" the way it was in the first place -- not due to a glut in inventory, but that the 1Ghz Ti will offer to Mac users the laptop analog of the 1.25 dual G4s that will remain in existence until summer of this year.

I bought mine, and despite my occasional desire to sell mine to get a bit higher screen real estate, reason prevails over me. I'll wait until we are talking about an upgrade in both resolution and graphics chip, as well as a bumped up processor on a .13 micron board.

My 2 cents...

And to frozenstar...sorry for letting it get personal. However, what kind of connection do you have where you get consistent bandwidth of over a megabye per second? That's what 11 mbps translates to in MB...we have a half T1 at my office and I never get even close to that kind of throughput (and I set up the network!).

I'm in complete agreement.

I'd just like to add that the LCDs in the new 15.4" PowerBooks will be of considerably higher quality than the current ones. The new LCDs come off the 5th generation production line, so you can expect much better contrast ratio, brightness, and response time.

As for my internet connection... It tops out at 6 megabits per second, not megabytes. I said that at my current distance from my access point, my throughput never goes over 3 megabits. An 802.11g access point and adapter would let me saturate the pipe. That extra 3 megabits is precious to me!

And one more thing... I apologize for letting this argument spiral out of control.
Technology (especially Apple's) makes me crazy!

john123

Jan 24, 2003, 12:55 AM

802.11b supports up to 11 megabits per second. That's a little over a megabyte per second.

So 802.11b should take care of you now....what's the problem?

** For users confused up to this point, there are 8 bits in a byte...

Oh, and as for LCDs...improvement is good, but to be honest, I have not noticed much of a jump in my three generations of PowerBook G4s...other than the resolution jump from my 550 to my 667, I can't say I've seen much change (after controlling for the natural degradation of the backlamp that occurs over time).

frozenstar

Jan 24, 2003, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by john123
802.11b supports up to 11 megabits per second. That's a little over a megabyte per second.

So 802.11b should take care of you now....what's the problem?

** For users confused up to this point, there are 8 bits in a byte...

It supports 11mbps in theory. In reality, even under optimal conditions, you can't exceed 8mbps.

I'm about 30 meters from my access point, separated by three walls. I'm also using 128-bit WEP encryption. Because of these conditions, I am never able to exceed 3mbps. If I had an 802.11g access point and client adapter, I'd easily be able to saturate my 6mbps internet connection.

benixau

Jan 24, 2003, 01:23 AM

i was worried. the rate you guys were going we were going to see world war three.

GWBush: WE have confirmed reports it was a buch or Mac users that started WWIII. Yes Ms. Whoever, they were indeed discussing wireless internet and apple's porduct line. we can only all hope china doesnt get involved.

please note i mean no offence to anyone in this. it is a sarcastic comment meant for fun.

really. i like the books but, if you dont need the features, why pay for them. lets leave it at that. and all of you, take some chill pills.

shees, :rolleyes:

ChoMomma

Jan 24, 2003, 03:39 AM

Standardized aspect ratio ? definite PLUS
- I play games on my Ti800.. however because of the 1280x854 ratio.. I can only go up to 1024x768 in Return To Castlewolfenstein.. and it supports 1280x800 . :(

auto backlit keyboard!! YEAH!!
- I like to uses my laptop on my lap...ahem.. sometimes in a darkened living room while watching movies or just T.V.

- I would also appreciate it for taking notes in my Art History classes when they Prof. turns out the lights to show slides :D

ATA 100 HD support!!! Woot!! and Onboard Bluetooth!!
- Better HD responsiveness while editing home movies and other large file operations.
- I would love to be able to use a bluetooth enabled phone to dial into my home network and check mail, server stats..etc. while away from home or hanging out by the river during nice weather.

*** I HOPE THEY STICK WITH THE RADEON THOUGH!***
Like maybe Radeon 9700 Pro Mobile :)

FW800 ??

- actually.. I'd rather have it now then have to add it later when I get some new peripherals.
I'm a big time FW HD junky...

Ok.. that's my .02 cents.

NicoMan

Jan 24, 2003, 05:32 AM

Originally posted by john123
And to frozenstar...sorry for letting it get personal.

My dear john123, like you said it yourself before, a little argument here and there is always entertaining. And I've come to expect you losing your temper on those boards. And I like it. Besides you do as a general rule make good points, even though your conclusions are usually extreme (I feel)...

Sorry for that off-topic intervention...

NicoMan

NicoMan

Jan 24, 2003, 06:14 AM

Originally posted by john123
And on the other hand, we have some PowerBooks that will boot in OS 9 (yay for compatibility!)
I think that is exactly the point: OS9 compatibility. For me, even though it 'sort of' did not make sense for Apple to come up with 2 new Powerbooks and not update the middle one, Apple is leaving it on the store for customers (they will target professionals -Quark anyone??- so all the consumer lines except in the education channel will be updated soon with no possibility of OS9 booting) wanting a Powerbook with OS9 compatibility (boooo!:)) and they are going to take their time updating the 15". First iMac update, and then Powermac and the 15" Powerbook, maybe.

Now I agree that to some people the 15" updated (as the rumours go) might not be as attractive, but I don't know, we are still talking about a rumour, so let's not jump to conclusions... I do feel that with the 12" and the 17" in the range, Apple need to modify the specs of the 15". How? I am not good enough to predict it (we have rumour sites for that).

Nicoman

john123

Jan 24, 2003, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by NicoMan

My dear john123, like you said it yourself before, a little argument here and there is always entertaining. And I've come to expect you losing your temper on those boards. And I like it. Besides you do as a general rule make good points, even though your conclusions are usually extreme (I feel)...

Sorry for that off-topic intervention...

NicoMan

Glad someone noticed! :)

It's all for entertainment.... ;)

macdiehard

Jan 24, 2003, 11:32 AM

I think it's important to remember that different users have different needs. I have a small business and even though I like the idea of having the latest and greatest I have to evaluate will the investment make in difference in productivity.

Things thate will help me are:

Airport - I like the idea of being able to get email at airports and hotels while I am travelling. Whether the new standard will really make a difference I don't know. As others said they are so many other limiting factors.

Bluetooth - Yes it would be nice to get rid of the cable to my printer but the adaptor would be just fine.

Screen - always nice to get better screens but the current ones are fine my needs.

Case - the paint chipping concerns me, I was going to get a PB600 for my wife but I might get her a 14 inch ibook instead because it might get banged around by my 2 year old.

What interests me the most is performance, speed plus ram. I won't the machine to be useful in 3 to 4 years from now. I am up to 3.5 years on my PB wallstreet 225. You know it does 90 per cent of what I need to do really well. It's main draw back is no USB and Firewire and my adaptac USB card crashes it a lot.

As I said before you can save a lot of money by buying 6 months behind.

As someone once said, a software upgrade or faster processor never got anyone a new customer or made a new sale. And by the way, the bragging rites only last 6 months, until the next cool thing hangs out.

I have a friend that gets the latest machine everytime it comes out. For me it's a waste of time, it's work switching machines and costly. Fortunately it's time for me to get a new machine and the choices are good!

jokkka

Jan 25, 2003, 10:42 PM

After thinking about it I think the 12" PowerBook would be groovy cause the pretty features (mainly bluetooth and airX and aluminium non-scratch) that I'd like from the 15" update are in the 12". Except I'm reading now that the 12" PB is slowww and gets beaten by the iBook is a couple speed tests? Is the 15" 1GHz G4 that much faster than the 12" 867MHz G4? L2 cache makes a difference I know but the discrepancy seems rather large... Oh! and Frozenstar, what available information leads you to suspect we will be seeing the 15.4" PB soon (I know the compal site but thats not enough to merit stating that). I'm looking to hook it up with this new Al15 and so I hope it comes out ASAP but I don't like false hope!

p.s. I use 500MHz Pentium 3 right now so do we think a 1GHz G4 would be a little faster in the Powerbook? I dunno, i mean it IS only 500MHz more... right? heh

NicoMan

Jan 27, 2003, 04:11 AM

Originally posted by jokkka
Except I'm reading now that the 12" PB is slowww and gets beaten by the iBook is a couple speed tests? Is the 15" 1GHz G4 that much faster than the 12" 867MHz G4? L2 cache makes a difference I know but the discrepancy seems rather large...
I have yet to see those actual tests... But anyway the iBook is not slow, especially in non altivec apps. So give it a G4 and the major downside is gone.
Oh! and Frozenstar, what available information leads you to suspect we will be seeing the 15.4" PB soon (I know the compal site but thats not enough to merit stating that). I'm looking to hook it up with this new Al15 and so I hope it comes out ASAP but I don't like false hope!
I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. I think there is a strong possibility that Apple will keep the current 15" the way it is for another couple of months. It has to do with leaving a Pro Laptop with OS9 booting ability. But who knows...
p.s. I use 500MHz Pentium 3 right now so do we think a 1GHz G4 would be a little faster in the Powerbook? I dunno, i mean it IS only 500MHz more... right? heh
I would say you will see a very big improvement from a 500 MHz P3 to a G4 (867MHz or 1GHz). But remember to put a lot of RAM, because it makes a lot of difference with OSX (I would try and max it out on any of the machines in the laptop range).

NicoMan

MacKid

Jan 27, 2003, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by jokkka
After thinking about it I think the 12" PowerBook would be groovy cause the pretty features (mainly bluetooth and airX and aluminium non-scratch) that I'd like from the 15" update are in the 12". Except I'm reading now that the 12" PB is slowww and gets beaten by the iBook is a couple speed tests? As stated by NicoMan, the G3 is faster than a G4 in non-AltiVec apps, but I went to the Apple Store in Tysons Corner, and the 12"PowerBook was not slow by any means, even with the lack of much cache, and it only had 256MB! So don't be afraid to get a 12".:D

frozenstar

Jan 27, 2003, 03:47 PM

Chinmei Sung of Digitimes has confirmed that Apple is replacing the 15.2" PowerBook with a 15.4" model in the "near future". The resolution is expected to be 1280x800.

Beyond this, we can only assume that the new 15.4" model will have at least all of the new features in the 12" PowerBook, and possibly the ambient light sensor found in the 17" model.

My guess is that the 15.4" model will become available for purchase shortly after the 17" model starts shipping.

NicoMan

Jan 28, 2003, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by frozenstar
Beyond this, we can only assume that the new 15.4" model will have at least all of the new features in the 12" PowerBook, and possibly the ambient light sensor found in the 17" model.

My guess is that the 15.4" model will become available for purchase shortly after the 17" model starts shipping.

It is likely that Apple is going to put in the 15" some of the features that are in the 17" but not in the 12". But I don't think we should expect everything that's in the 17" to be in the 15": they need to differentiate feature-wise both those models (my guesss is that, on top of the screen size, we might not see FW800 or the ambient light sensor in the 15", but it's pure speculation).

As for availability, shortly after shipments of the 17" is reasonable, because we would be looking at 2 to 3 months down the line, which should see Quark close to release an OSX version and therefore would remove the need for OS9-booting machines.

NicoMan

yzedf

Jan 30, 2003, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by NicoMan

It is likely that Apple is going to put in the 15" some of the features that are in the 17" but not in the 12". But I don't think we should expect everything that's in the 17" to be in the 15": they need to differentiate feature-wise both those models (my guesss is that, on top of the screen size, we might not see FW800 or the ambient light sensor in the 15", but it's pure speculation).

As for availability, shortly after shipments of the 17" is reasonable, because we would be looking at 2 to 3 months down the line, which should see Quark close to release an OSX version and therefore would remove the need for OS9-booting machines.

NicoMan

Hopefully FW800 will be there. The keyboard is just a waste for me. The combo of touch typing and light off the screen is fine for me.

2-3 month wait would kill me. The 15.2" TiBooks sales have languished for some time, and the (supposed) knowledge of what the new revision (might) will look like probably will absolutely kill off sales, IMO.

I want the 15.x" PB, but if it will be revised to what the 12" and 17" are now (style and features)... I will wait. And I think most others will too.

Waiting for Quark is asinine. Screw them. Most "pro" shops don't use the latest and greatest hardware anyway. And why would you do work of that nature with a notebook anyways? Any pro work requiring color accuracy eliminates the use of an LCD screen/monitor anyhow.

Of course this is just my biased opinion... ;)

Maz

Jan 30, 2003, 04:56 PM

(my first post!)

I'm looking to upgrade my iMac G3 450Mhz - it's getting a bit long in the tooth with OS X and iMovie in particular. I'm thinking of either a new iMac or a 15" powerbook (hopefully the rumoured updates will come true). Based on the current predictions re specs, how do you think performance will compare between the 2?

yzedf

Jan 30, 2003, 11:11 PM

shadowfax

Jan 31, 2003, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by Maz
(my first post!)

I'm looking to upgrade my iMac G3 450Mhz - it's getting a bit long in the tooth with OS X and iMovie in particular. I'm thinking of either a new iMac or a 15" powerbook (hopefully the rumoured updates will come true). Based on the current predictions re specs, how do you think performance will compare between the 2?

welcome to macrumors.

i would say powerbook. it is utterly invaluable to have airport/airport extreme. moreover, i believe they have somewhat better video cards in them (i don't think imacs even have 64 MB DDR vid, do they? someone will correct me if i am off). plus, the proc is and probably will continue to be faster... maybe if the iMac'ers are lucky they will go up to 1GHz in the next week. time will tell. in any event, i think that the Ti/Albook has a lot going for it, one of those factors NOT being price, though it's a good deal (i promise, i have one).

NicoMan

Jan 31, 2003, 03:17 AM

Originally posted by yzedf

Hopefully FW800 will be there. The keyboard is just a waste for me. The combo of touch typing and light off the screen is fine for me.

2-3 month wait would kill me. The 15.2" TiBooks sales have languished for some time, and the (supposed) knowledge of what the new revision (might) will look like probably will absolutely kill off sales, IMO.

I want the 15.x" PB, but if it will be revised to what the 12" and 17" are now (style and features)... I will wait. And I think most others will too.

Waiting for Quark is asinine. Screw them. Most "pro" shops don't use the latest and greatest hardware anyway. And why would you do work of that nature with a notebook anyways? Any pro work requiring color accuracy eliminates the use of an LCD screen/monitor anyhow.

Of course this is just my biased opinion... ;)

I would hope for a release much sooner than 2-3 months too. But I don't know about that OS9 booting stuff: Apple seem to care about it (that's why it is still possible to buy OS9-booting PowerMacs on the Apple store). Now I agree with you that ******'em professional Quark users, but Apple is trying hard not to alienate those people.

NicoMan

NicoMan

Jan 31, 2003, 03:23 AM

Originally posted by Shadowfax

welcome to macrumors.

i would say powerbook. it is utterly invaluable to have airport/airport extreme. moreover, i believe they have somewhat better video cards in them (i don't think imacs even have 64 MB DDR vid, do they? someone will correct me if i am off). plus, the proc is and probably will continue to be faster... maybe if the iMac'ers are lucky they will go up to 1GHz in the next week. time will tell. in any event, i think that the Ti/Albook has a lot going for it, one of those factors NOT being price, though it's a good deal (i promise, i have one).

I agree with you I would say the PBooks are better if somewhat more expensive. If you are looking for the 15", an update is obviously coming, but when is difficult to say. The most optimistic estimates are a couple of weeks, the most pessimistic one (mine) says 2 months or so (cf my previous posts on this thread).

NicoMan

Maz

Jan 31, 2003, 03:58 AM

Originally posted by yzedf

Why not upgrade the machine you have?

I'm going to give the old iMac to my parents - they have a crummy 386 PC and don't have internet access - I think they will be amazed with it!

Thanks everyone for the welcome and the advice - I was swaying towards the PB already but you've helped make my mind up now!

Hulot

Jan 31, 2003, 04:11 AM

Apple sells their old PowerMacs at a premium and markets them OS 9 compatible bto options or some such, right?

What would prevent them from doing the same with the current stock of Ti PBs?

They could charge extra *AND* have the benefit of selling new 15.4" PBs to people who want them. Like me.

If the 12" PB had 1 GHz and L3 cache, I would have bought one right away. Now with the new 20" display on offer I also need DVI out it seems! ;-)

yzedf

Jan 31, 2003, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by Maz

I'm going to give the old iMac to my parents - they have a crummy 386 PC and don't have internet access - I think they will be amazed with it!

Thanks everyone for the welcome and the advice - I was swaying towards the PB already but you've helped make my mind up now!

Tell your parents good luck from MacRumors :)

yzedf

Jan 31, 2003, 09:07 AM

frozenstar

Jan 31, 2003, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by yzedf

Yeah... they really did kinda drop the ball on the 12"

I think that was to make the 15" seem like an "upgrade" over the 12" aside from screen size... :rolleyes:

I don't agree with that at all. The new 12" PowerBook has the highest component density of any Apple laptop before it. There is very little area over which to disperse heat.

I believe that the 1GHz and L3 cache were left out more for technical reasons than marketing ones.

macdiehard

Jan 31, 2003, 10:25 AM

If the 12" PB had 1 GHz and L3 cache, I would have bought one right away. Now with the new 20" display on offer I also need DVI out it seems! ;-) [/B][/QUOTE]

I have to say this was my feeling also. For me I want ultra portability when I move around and desktop confort at my desk, external keyboard and monitor. Also I hate having a lap top and desktop and having to sync data, so one small powerful lap top with an external monitor is the best of both worlds.

My ideal solution is the 12 inch power book but I'd like to have maximum power, hence 1GHZ and the best video out put - DVI. Also 1 gig of ram!

I am not complaining, the 12 inch is way better in performance than similar small Pee Cee notebooks.

What surprises me with the 12 inch is the VGA, I mean the Apple store doesn't offer any monitor to go with the 12 inch (excuse my ignorance here but I assume you can't get the Apple monitors to work off the VGA - is that true?)

Why force me the consumer to buy a third party monitor?

I realize that their must people out their that love the VGA because it works with the projectors for presentations by why hobble their own monitors?

NicoMan

Jan 31, 2003, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by Hulot
Apple sells their old PowerMacs at a premium and markets them OS 9 compatible bto options or some such, right?

What would prevent them from doing the same with the current stock of Ti PBs?

They could charge extra *AND* have the benefit of selling new 15.4" PBs to people who want them. Like me.

If the 12" PB had 1 GHz and L3 cache, I would have bought one right away. Now with the new 20" display on offer I also need DVI out it seems! ;-)
My guess is, from what I have read in those forums, that it is a ROM issue. On a PowerMac it would be easy to put the old OS9-compatible ROMs instead on a one-by-one basis (hence the BTO option...). Try doing this on a PowerBook (you know the units are built in Taiwan or something and then shipped for order-merging)... I am not sure Apple would want to run 2 different assembly lines for the same computer.

Anyway that is just a guess.

NicoMan

dstorey

Jan 31, 2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Maz

I'm going to give the old iMac to my parents - they have a crummy 386 PC and don't have internet access

Wow, someone with a worse main computer than my crappy P1 200 MMX that died every half an hour when i was trying to do my uni project on DW Ultra Dev and MS Office. Wish someone had an old mac for me....:-( hehe

Hulot

Feb 1, 2003, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by NicoMan

My guess is, from what I have read in those forums, that it is a ROM issue. On a PowerMac it would be easy to put the old OS9-compatible ROMs instead on a one-by-one basis (hence the BTO option...). Try doing this on a PowerBook (you know the units are built in Taiwan or something and then shipped for order-merging)... I am not sure Apple would want to run 2 different assembly lines for the same computer.

Anyway that is just a guess.

NicoMan

I checked again and the OS 9 PowerMacs definitely look like the old machines: 1.25 GHz + 2MB L3 Cache/processor; no FireWire 800. They don't need two assembly lines. They just sell the old machines while they have stock. Shows some chuzpe that sell them at a higher price. But then, if the customer is willing to pay...

And I can't wait for them to do the same trick with the old TiBooks -- sell them as compatibility options while getting new 15.4" models out of the door. Go go go go! ;-)

Longchamp

Feb 1, 2003, 07:24 PM

Hi! i'm a new comer, and NOT from any Mac. i've never used one, the last time i ever saw one was in grade 2, i'm in grade 12 now. i'm going to university next year, and i need a laptop that can do everything i throw at it, yet be as portable as my current Toshiba Protege.

i've looked and looked, the Ti book was the best, but HEY 12 and 17" beasts are here, makes me wonder are the 15" powerbooks going to be updated in the near future. and WHEN that "near" future is.

so far, i have read that it would be a couple weeks, to 2months for it to come out. i'm fine with that, 2 months is a little on the long side, and i can't possibly sit here waiting for that long! i really want the new powerbook, and that backlit keyboard (which i'm praying they'll have)is driving me nuttts..

so my questions are:
when is it expected these new Powerbooks be out?
Why do you think there will be a new Powerbook in the NEAR future?
and lastly..
How long before a product is on the website will Apple announce the new products? any shows etc.?

NicoMan

Feb 2, 2003, 04:18 AM

Originally posted by Hulot

I checked again and the OS 9 PowerMacs definitely look like the old machines: 1.25 GHz + 2MB L3 Cache/processor; no FireWire 800. They don't need two assembly lines. They just sell the old machines while they have stock. Shows some chuzpe that sell them at a higher price. But then, if the customer is willing to pay...

And I can't wait for them to do the same trick with the old TiBooks -- sell them as compatibility options while getting new 15.4" models out of the door. Go go go go! ;-)

You are right about those PowerMacs. But I also think that Apple might need to change the feature list of the new 15.4" to make it fit better in the new range (not too close to the 17" while far enough from the 12"), and that might make it a 'lesser' machine than the actual 15.2" (the rumour has it that the new screen will be 1280*800: here you go with a smaller screen). In that case that wouldn't do to have both 15" on sale at the same time.

Anyway I was trying to play devil's advocate, and I personally would like to see them out of the door fast. But when you think about it, that's already a lot of new stuff since the beginning of the year, and we are also talking about new iMacs soon...

NicoMan

NicoMan

Feb 2, 2003, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by Longchamp
Why do you think there will be a new Powerbook in the NEAR future?
and lastly..
How long before a product is on the website will Apple announce the new products? any shows etc.?
I think that Apple need to update the 15" to make it part of the new Aluminium range, with also some features like Bluetooth, Airport Extreme and (possibly) FW800 and the keyboard light thingy.
Now when... Hard to say really. One of the reasons I feel that we are at least a month away from Apple announcing it is the fact that it was last updated early Nov 2002 and that usually the upgrade cycle at Apple is 5-6 months.
Now to your last question: when Apple announce a new product, it is almost always immediately on their website (I mean within an hour or 2 at most). But the shipping times can vary from a couple of days (the new PowerMacs) to 2 months (the 17" PowerBook).

Hope that helps.

NicoMan

Longchamp

Feb 2, 2003, 10:44 AM

hmm...sounds good so far..thx for the reply

so FOR SURE they will be here before the end of this school year? is that the story?

as for the features...will the screen be better or worse than the current version of PB's?

NicoMan

Feb 3, 2003, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Longchamp
hmm...sounds good so far..thx for the reply

so FOR SURE they will be here before the end of this school year? is that the story?

as for the features...will the screen be better or worse than the current version of PB's?
I would say it's 99.9% sure they will update the 15" before the end of this 'school year' (by the way, when is the end of your school year?).

Now about the screen: it is rumoured to be 1280*800 (as opposed to 1280*854 on the current 15") so if you value screen real estate, you will be worse off with the new screen. However, there are other considerations like brightness, contrast, colour accuracy, etc... that make a screen good or not. Knowing Apple, there is a good chance that these specs will be (slightly?) better on the new 15".

NicoMan

yzedf

Feb 3, 2003, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by frozenstar

I don't agree with that at all. The new 12" PowerBook has the highest component density of any Apple laptop before it. There is very little area over which to disperse heat.

I believe that the 1GHz and L3 cache were left out more for technical reasons than marketing ones.

Nope.

If you could get 1GHz and L3 cache in the 12" PB as well as the BT and FW800 and AExtreme...

Most would NOT get the 15.2" at this time.

We want the upgrade. Too bad the 17" makes it look like no 1.25GHz any time soon. :(

frozenstar

Feb 3, 2003, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by yzedf

Nope.

If you could get 1GHz and L3 cache in the 12" PB as well as the BT and FW800 and AExtreme...

Most would NOT get the 15.2" at this time.

We want the upgrade. Too bad the 17" makes it look like no 1.25GHz any time soon. :(

Well, that's your opinion. Just try to state it as an opinion, not a fact. ;)

yzedf

Feb 3, 2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by NicoMan

I would say it's 99.9% sure they will update the 15" before the end of this 'school year' (by the way, when is the end of your school year?).

Now about the screen: it is rumoured to be 1280*800 (as opposed to 1280*854 on the current 15") so if you value screen real estate, you will be worse off with the new screen. However, there are other considerations like brightness, contrast, colour accuracy, etc... that make a screen good or not. Knowing Apple, there is a good chance that these specs will be (slightly?) better on the new 15".

NicoMan

Why not have 1600*1000 or some such thing?

It is not like you have to use this high of a screen resolution, but for us that can, it would be nice to have. Especially now that the vid cards can support this kind of thing now.

It could ship set at 1280*800 with a note in the manual stating that it can max out at 1600*1000

Choice is good.

yzedf

Feb 3, 2003, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by frozenstar

Well, that's your opinion. Just try to state it as an opinion, not a fact. ;)

Most... :D

frozenstar

Feb 3, 2003, 02:24 PM

NicoMan

Feb 3, 2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by yzedf

Why not have 1600*1000 or some such thing?

It is not like you have to use this high of a screen resolution, but for us that can, it would be nice to have. Especially now that the vid cards can support this kind of thing now.

It could ship set at 1280*800 with a note in the manual stating that it can max out at 1600*1000

Choice is good.

I would love to see the 15" come out at 1600*1000, of course. But to be honest, with the 17" displaying 1440*900, the chances of the 15" coming out with a better resolution than the 17" (which has yet to ship...) are close to 0.00000001%. And, as Frozenstar said, LCDs are not very good at scaling (I mean it doesn't look very nice usually...) so displaying in anything else than their native res is usually not a good idea.

NicoMan

NicoMan

Feb 3, 2003, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by yzedf

Why not have 1600*1000 or some such thing?

It is not like you have to use this high of a screen resolution, but for us that can, it would be nice to have. Especially now that the vid cards can support this kind of thing now.

It could ship set at 1280*800 with a note in the manual stating that it can max out at 1600*1000

Choice is good.

I wanted to add that, it is always better to have your LCD run at the highest possible resolution (native), because fonts/icons/dock can all be resized and benefit from anti-aliasing under OSX. So having a 1600*1000 screen shipped pref'd at 1280*800 with the choice to display a higher res makes close to zero sense.

NicoMan

john123

Feb 5, 2003, 01:30 AM

Lest we all forget, the PowerBook G4-15 is the only pro portable computer that still boots in OS 9.

I really don't think we see it disappear until around June-ish, which is when the dual 1.25 OS 9-compatible ones are supposed to disappear as well.

Long live the Ti!

shadowfax

Feb 5, 2003, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by john123
Lest we all forget, the PowerBook G4-15 is the only pro portable computer that still boots in OS 9.

I really don't think we see it disappear until around June-ish, which is when the dual 1.25 OS 9-compatible ones are supposed to disappear as well.

Long live the Ti!

wow. that's a really good point. kudos. though maybe they will just up it a few hundred $ when the new one comes.

NicoMan

Feb 5, 2003, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by john123
Lest we all forget, the PowerBook G4-15 is the only pro portable computer that still boots in OS 9.

I really don't think we see it disappear until around June-ish, which is when the dual 1.25 OS 9-compatible ones are supposed to disappear as well.

Long live the Ti!

My not giving a damn about OS9 notwithstanding, I think this is one of the reasons why we won't see the 15" updated for another couple of months.

NicoMan

NicoMan

Feb 5, 2003, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by Shadowfax

wow. that's a really good point. kudos. though maybe they will just up it a few hundred $ when the new one comes.
Why? You got one and would like to sell yours to get the new ones when it comes out ?

NicoMan

jamilecrire

Feb 5, 2003, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by pgwalsh
You did call to make sure they have one to show you, right?

It's the Apple Store in Dallas (#2 or 3 in the country) they get all the stuff first run since it serves such a large market. Note: they are building another apple store in dallas off Knox Street (about 25 minutes from the one in Plano). Great Apple market and great toys (the employees aren't the brightest but then again anyone working in a retail computer store is usually lacking something, otherwise they'd get a better job).

aryeh

Feb 5, 2003, 11:00 AM

re: the poooor design/marketing of the 12" powerbook and it's implications for the next 15".

Hello group. This is my first post.

On the motu-mac@yahoogroups.com, I wrote (Motu makes the Digital Performer audio sequencer as well as other professional audio products):

(I understand your position regarding the emac and IMac - although they went half way on this one by only increasing the bus speed.) But the 12" powerbook is new technology.
I don't see why they just can't price it accordingly according to the screen size. Not everyone wants to shlep around a 17" powerbook to get the level 3 cache. At home/studio, one can always hook up a second monitor to the 12" so...

Paul, responded:

Absolutely 100% agreed. It makes sense to move the old line down to move out existing stock (they're doing that with the 15" PowerBook, obviously), but I think Apple made a VERY bad move with the new 12" Powerbook. And it's not just the L3 cache--there are several ways in which the 12" is not up to par with the 17", and that simply makes it less desirably. The strange thing is that Apple is only marketing the 17" in its massive screen and the 12" on its portability. All the things the 17" has that the 12" doesn't are totally glossed-over and not marketed. Why then would they be afraid that the 12" would cannibalize 17" sales? Why not make a true high-end sub-compact? No one will buy the 12" if they want the 17" screen, and no one will buy the 17" if they want ultra-portability. The fact is, there's very little reason to buy the 12" PB over the 12" iBook--THAT is what they should be worrying about.

With the iMacs and eMacs and PowerMacs the line upgrade system makes sense because there's so little cross-over. But in the portable line, it's harder to position the iBooks and PowerBooks to be sufficiently different to merit SEVEN different configurations (four iBooks, three PowerBooks). Why Apple should make the situation worse by positioning the 12" as a "low-end" PowerBook is beyond me--the iBook IS a low-end PowerBook. What they really need is a high-end sub-compact!

Me again, on this forum:

I am concerned that Apple WILL scale down the 17" when bringing out the 15". If so, I would suggest Apple start a "THINK STUPID" campaign. Why do they always do this?

Aryeh :confused:

PS Would have liked a 12" powerbook, but it's just not pro enough for audio work other than basic tracking.

NicoMan

Feb 5, 2003, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by aryeh
re: the poooor design/marketing of the 12" powerbook and it's implications for the next 15".

Hello group. This is my first post.

On the motu-mac@yahoogroups.com, I wrote (Motu makes the Digital Performer audio sequencer as well as other professional audio products):

(I understand your position regarding the emac and IMac - although they went half way on this one by only increasing the bus speed.) But the 12" powerbook is new technology.
I don't see why they just can't price it accordingly according to the screen size. Not everyone wants to shlep around a 17" powerbook to get the level 3 cache. At home/studio, one can always hook up a second monitor to the 12" so...

Paul, responded:

Absolutely 100% agreed. It makes sense to move the old line down to move out existing stock (they're doing that with the 15" PowerBook, obviously), but I think Apple made a VERY bad move with the new 12" Powerbook. And it's not just the L3 cache--there are several ways in which the 12" is not up to par with the 17", and that simply makes it less desirably. The strange thing is that Apple is only marketing the 17" in its massive screen and the 12" on its portability. All the things the 17" has that the 12" doesn't are totally glossed-over and not marketed. Why then would they be afraid that the 12" would cannibalize 17" sales? Why not make a true high-end sub-compact? No one will buy the 12" if they want the 17" screen, and no one will buy the 17" if they want ultra-portability. The fact is, there's very little reason to buy the 12" PB over the 12" iBook--THAT is what they should be worrying about.

With the iMacs and eMacs and PowerMacs the line upgrade system makes sense because there's so little cross-over. But in the portable line, it's harder to position the iBooks and PowerBooks to be sufficiently different to merit SEVEN different configurations (four iBooks, three PowerBooks). Why Apple should make the situation worse by positioning the 12" as a "low-end" PowerBook is beyond me--the iBook IS a low-end PowerBook. What they really need is a high-end sub-compact!

Me again, on this forum:

I am concerned that Apple WILL scale down the 17" when bringing out the 15". If so, I would suggest Apple start a "THINK STUPID" campaign. Why do they always do this?

Aryeh :confused:

PS Would have liked a 12" powerbook, but it's just not pro enough for audio work other than basic tracking.

I tell you what: If you put more features in that 12", what will be the point of the 15"(apart from price difference with the 17", that is)?

I do agree that putting more features in one machine is always preferable, but then you become a 1-computer company, and that to the detriment of other computers in the range which would have fitted other consumers' needs better but unfortunately are not viable anymore. You can't put ALL the goodies in that 12", because then you might as well forget about the iBooks, the 15" and the 17". Besides, from what I hear, putting more stuff in that 12"PB would start becoming a technical miracle (look at Kodawarisan's pictures of the innards of a 12-incher, if you don't believe me). All in all, the 15" is STILL a very portable machine (as opposed to the enormous 17"), and when updated with the latest goodies from the alu range, will make a fine compromise machine.

NicoMan

PS1: saying that there is little difference between the iBook and the 12" PB is a bit excessive, IMHO.

PS2: i would love a 13" WideScreen PB dual 1GHz G4 displaying 1440*900 with 1GB PC2700 DDR RAM ATI Radeon 9700 and so on... Is that realistic? hmmm

macdiehard

Feb 5, 2003, 03:23 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NicoMan
[B]

All in all, the 15" is STILL a very portable machine (as opposed to the enormous 17"), and when updated with the latest goodies from the alu range, will make a fine compromise machine.

I am getting to this conclusion myself. It's very light compared with PC lap tops. Many are 7.5 lbs or more, though I did find a Fujitsu at 6.4 lbs. The PB 15 is still light weight.

The 17 inch is too large to use on an airline dinner tray, I suspect. The lack of DVI on the 12 inch is disapointing for those of us that would lack to power an Apple monitor or something like the Formac.

If you just need ultraportability for basic functions for road trips, the ibook makes sense. 90 per cent of the time I travel, all I do is check email.

shadowfax

Feb 5, 2003, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by NicoMan

Why? You got one and would like to sell yours to get the new ones when it comes out ?

NicoMan

no, i am just saying, he points out they need an OS 9 portable, which the 15 inch is, and that's a reason not to upgrade the 15. i was pointing out that if they DO updated it, they may sell the old 15 for more for the same reasons they are selling the OS 9 Pmacs at a higher price. i don't want a new powerbook 15 if it has less pixel space. I like mine mighty fine. no, i won't sell it anytime soon.

Freg3000

Feb 5, 2003, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax

no, i am just saying, he points out they need an OS 9 portable, which the 15 inch is, and that's a reason not to upgrade the 15.

I am willing to bet that Apple will upgrade the 15" Powerbooks pretty soon, because it's weird having that model between the 12" and 17" due to the Airport Extreme, DDR Ram, etc. But Apple will keep select OS 9 booting systems for the 15" like what they did with the Powermacs.

frozenstar

Feb 5, 2003, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by NicoMan
PS2: i would love a 13" WideScreen PB dual 1GHz G4 displaying 1440*900 with 1GB PC2700 DDR RAM ATI Radeon 9700 and so on... Is that realistic? hmmm

That'd be one sweet machine.

But, even if Apple released a PowerBook with those specs, people would still complain.

You can make some of the people happy all of the time, and you can make all of the people happy some of the time, but you can't make Apple users happy, ever.

jokkka

Feb 5, 2003, 07:26 PM

I don't think at least. Obviously they wouldn't raise the price of the current 15" OS9 Ti, so if they had a 15.4" Al at a hefty discount (as is the case with the Powermacs) then they'd be launching the 15" Al at $2300 or so-- which is really cheap. Also the Powermacs with OS9 (I believe) have the same specs as those with only OSX. So the price bump is 100% cause of OS9, whereas the OS9 Ti wouldn't have some expensive features of the 15Al so maybe they'd be the same price? I could see that I guess.

Question though! When do we think they'll have an upgraded PB processor for the 15"? A 1.25GHz Al... in July perhaps? Clearly they won't be upgrading the 12/17 at different times than the 15 so in keeping with the 6month rule are we starting when the 12/17s came out or when the 15 will come?

MacKid

Feb 6, 2003, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by jokkka

Question though! When do we think they'll have an upgraded PB processor for the 15"? A 1.25GHz Al... in July perhaps? Clearly they won't be upgrading the 12/17 at different times than the 15 so in keeping with the 6month rule are we starting when the 12/17s came out or when the 15 will come?

A very balanced design would be 12"-15"-17, 867-1G-1.25G (accordingly). Then, maybe by November/December-Ish, a speed bump to 1-1.25-1.42, after the PPC970 release?:cool: We can hope. . .

jokkka

Feb 6, 2003, 10:01 PM

But that would mean the 12 and 15 inchers wouldn't get speed bumps for almost a whole year. I think a July update to 1Ghz--1.25GHz--1.42GHz is more likely (although it would be a big boost to the 17" from 1GHz to 1.42, they'll offer the 17 in flavors of 1.25 and 1.42 in July I think.

GeneR

Feb 6, 2003, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by Rocketman
Makes sense they would update the middle unit to prevent the middle from being perceived as the bottom of line unit.

It seems my boss told me I am REQUIRED to use a new Al17 when they come in. I politely agreed to heed his order. :)

Now I have to decide how to put the Ti15 on APE.

Rocketman

Wow. My condolences, Rocketman. How could your boss be so cruel? :D

Wish more bosses felt the same way...

regan

Feb 6, 2003, 11:07 PM

I predict that the 15" alumabook will have EVRYTHING the 17" has....um except for the larger screen of course....and it will sell for $2999 with super drive and $2799 without. The current Tibooks that still boot in OS9 will be available for $2299 and $1799 to clear out ALL leftover stock.

moby1

Feb 7, 2003, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by regan
I predict that the 15" alumabook will have EVRYTHING the 17" has....um except for the larger screen of course....and it will sell for $2999 with super drive and $2799 without. The current Tibooks that still boot in OS9 will be available for $2299 and $1799 to clear out ALL leftover stock.

because at those prices, I would 'pounce' on the 2299 model (although I would lament the lack of a keyboard that lights up) .:p

shadowfax

Feb 7, 2003, 02:59 AM

Originally posted by regan
I predict that the 15" alumabook will have EVRYTHING the 17" has....um except for the larger screen of course....and it will sell for $2999 with super drive and $2799 without. The current Tibooks that still boot in OS9 will be available for $2299 and $1799 to clear out ALL leftover stock.

that's not what they did with old powermacs though. i think they will cost more if anything. apple seems to be getting vindictive about getting people to make the switch to OS X.

NicoMan

Feb 7, 2003, 05:03 AM

Originally posted by MacKid

A very balanced design would be 12"-15"-17, 867-1G-1.25G (accordingly). Then, maybe by November/December-Ish, a speed bump to 1-1.25-1.42, after the PPC970 release?:cool: We can hope. . .
I think we will see a 867MHz, 1GHz, 1GHz when the 15 incher comes out (in 4-6 weeks ???) and then no updates until this summer where we will get 1, 1.25, 1.25 or so. Or we could get no 15" update until this summer, when we go straight to a 1, 1.25, 1.25 config with the 7457 (less heat...).

Dunno

NicoMan

NicoMan

Feb 7, 2003, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by regan
I predict that the 15" alumabook will have EVRYTHING the 17" has....um except for the larger screen of course....and it will sell for $2999 with super drive and $2799 without. The current Tibooks that still boot in OS9 will be available for $2299 and $1799 to clear out ALL leftover stock.

I don't know about the prices, but I guess you are right in terms of features. The only thing I can see not making it COULD be the keyboard light thingy, and even then I can't really see why...

NicoMan

GeneR

Feb 7, 2003, 12:39 PM

I'm wondering if the updates to Airport Extreme, Firewire800 etc. is part of the reason why a bigger screen for the 15" would be needed. Could they need the extra space in the laptop itself to accomodate the new hardware? Probably not. Hopefully, this new model won't look too different from the old one. The TiBook is sweet no matter which way you look at it.

:D

NicoMan

Feb 7, 2003, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by GeneR
I'm wondering if the updates to Airport Extreme, Firewire800 etc. is part of the reason why a bigger screen for the 15" would be needed. Could they need the extra space in the laptop itself to accomodate the new hardware? Probably not. Hopefully, this new model won't look too different from the old one. The TiBook is sweet no matter which way you look at it.

:D

Are you talking about the size being 15.4" in the new one as opposed to 15.2" in the old one? That's not a big difference, and I would say that it has more to do with availability of the screen than anything else (within the Apple's requirement in terms of brightness, luminosity, 'response time', aspect ratio, etc...). Besides, from what the rumour are saying, the res would be 1280*800 as opposed to 1280*854. So even if the screen is slightly wider, it won't be as deep. Which, I guess makes it more likely to fulfill its function as a laptop (try opening your 15" in economy/coach class in a plane...).

NicoMan