Disk Warrior 3 -- Finally?

[MacRumors]

RailHeadDesign (http://www.railheaddesign.com/) and MacBidouille (http://www.macbidouille.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2003-01-21#4472) posted screenshots and information on DiskWarrior 3 -- which has been long in the coming. From Railhead:


A Sneak Peek version was handed out at Macworld, and I?ve been playing with it for a few days ? and let me tell you: DiskWarrior 3 is great! Like many others, this program has saved my rear on more than one occasion, and it?s nice to have an OS X version if for no other reason than to simply know you have it just in case you need it.

[JCsHands]

Thats awsome I cant wait till its open to the public.
Is this where im suppose to put something about first post?

[Nipsy]

Played with it a lot at MSWF, and they claimed late Feb/March release.

[coolbreeze]

Hmm, $70 seems a little steep...but then again, from what I understand, this has been a long time coming for macs. (I'm a recent switcher w/a powerbook on the way).

So a defrag utility doesn't exist for mac os?

[Nipsy]

Defrag is overrated in HFS+ UNIX, as the utilities which do it are immature, and often cause distinct harm.

Disk Warrior is an incredibly powerful tool, which can repair disks which you thought were goners. After it saves your ass once, you won't be thinking $70 is too steep.

Caveat: I sure haven't needed DiskWarrior since moving to X on day 1, but it'll be nice to know it's there.

[Bradcoe]

Boot off of the Norton Utilities cd and you can defrag your mac runing os x. I believe it has to be version 2, someone double check on this. Macs have never been able to defrag the boot volume (while having booted off of it obviously) like other disk format os's can.

[melchior]

norton will do more harm than good most of the time...

[yamadataro]

I've always used Norton in my whole Mac life.
Anyone compared Norton and Disk Warrior?
I'm curious if DW is better than Norton?

The latest Norton doesn't work on 10.2.3 (official incompatibility).
So I'm irritated.

[Nipsy]

Here is the safest method for hard drive repair, without data loss:
Disk First Aid
fsck -y
DiscWarrior (from 9)
Drive 10
Norton (last resort, also from 9 CD)

These issues have been beaten to death at macgurus.com, and Norton is clearly the losing utility. Disc Warrior does the BEST HDD directory repair (not directory like folder, but the master for the whole drive). It is the most favored tool of all the techies I've worked with, or who have worked for me. Drive 10 appears to have recovered somewhat from the issues it had in the 10.0 days. Norton is ONLY used as a last ditch effort before sending the drive to RMA/data recovery land.

Furthermore, in my experience without about 400 end users over the last few years, the hot shots who installed Norton on their own all came crying to me (after my contract was over, because it had fscked something up).

Whatever you do do not install Norton, use it only from the CD. If you install Norton onto an X volume, it will fsck things up!

Now, on the subject of optimizing, I have not optimized my drive in a long time (OS 9 days). I have switched a few drives around, but I've been using a dual 120GXP striped RAID on a SIIG RAID card for about a year without reformatting. It benches today, as it did when set up. I have experienced 0 application slowdown, and have noticed 0 ill effects from not optimizing. Furthermore, drives from Apple as delivered from a IDE master copier, do not match Norton's optimization scheme, which proves that it is incorrect, as Apple drives match closely when new. On top of that, I have heard from 4 of my clients, and countless web forums, of drives becoming unusable after being optimized with Norton.

If you wanna do it, go right ahead, but having worked very closely with X, end-users, and storage since X was released, I choose not to.

[j763]

We put an article (http://www.ambitiouslemon.com/hints.php?id=27) out some time ago about Disk Utilties on the mac. Although it was written mid last year, the information is still completely accurate.

In short...

- Having nothing is better than having Norton Utilites for Mac

- TechTool is OK for diagnosing hardware problems, but I wouldn't let it do anything to my hard drive. Its hard drive work is *slightly* better than Norton.

- DiskWarrior just kicks ass. I've never had it make a drive worse (and believe me, I've had a lot of damaged drives to test it on) -- which the other two, especially Norton, most certainly have. I've only rarely ran into a disk that DiskWarrior can't repair perfectly -- and that disk was really gone.

So yeah... DiskWarrior is worth it and you're supporting a fantastic product made by a fantastic company.

I wouldn't sell Nortons, TechTool or Drive X to my worst enemy.

[Choppaface]

that app saved my lombard on a trip

nice, will have to pick it up

[jwsellers]

Originally posted by Nipsy
Here is the safest method for hard drive repair, without data loss:
Disk First Aid
fsck -y
DiscWarrior (from 9)
Drive 10
Norton (last resort, also from 9 CD)

I have to agree with Nipsy here. Norton is the last resort, but you can't count it out entirely. I had a drive a few weeks ago which couldn't even be seen by Disk First Aid, DiskWarrrior, Drive 10, Disk Utility, or Drive Setup. Only Norton could find it, and I used Norton to rebuild the directory to the point I could use DiskWarrior to really rebuild the directory.

And to disagree with one thing Bradcoe said, Macs could optimize boot volumes at least since the end of 1989 when DiskExpress II came out.

[Duff-Man]

Originally posted by coolbreeze
Hmm, $70 seems a little steep...but then again, from what I understand, this has been a long time coming for macs. (I'm a recent switcher w/a powerbook on the way). Duff-Man says....$70 is *very* reasonable for the great job DW does. My credit card is all warmed up and ready to go....Oh Yeah!

[mac15]

I've had DW3 for a few weeks now and its great, its very fast at optmising.

[redAPPLE]

Originally posted by melchior
norton will do more harm than good most of the time...

is this a fact?

[msxgames]

I just hope there will be an upgrade package for already registered users.

[yamadataro]

Sounds like DW is a nice piece of recovery software to try out. I haven't used anything other than Norton (and Disk Utility, of course).

Can't wait for the OS X release.

Oh, BTW, I've got a Norton SystemWorks with me and there is this thing called "Disk Warrior Recovery Edition" in it. I guess it's a trimmed down version of the DW? As long as I use it for recovery purposes only, it's the same stuff as DW full-package edition, right?

[lazyrighteye]

I purchased DW2 about 6 months ago, and inquired about the next version that would fully operate under X. Was told then that DW3 would be out in a few months, and that it would cost me full price (even as a registered DW woner).
While that does sorta suck, like someone above mentioned: $70 to save your arse won't feel so bad. But it would be nice of DW to cut their users a little break. If only in principle...

lazyrighteye

[PieMac]

Originally posted by Nipsy

Whatever you do do not install Norton, use it only from the CD. If you install Norton onto an X volume, it will fsck things up!


...so what if you've already installed Norton? What will this do? And is there a way to uninstall it and undo any possible damage done?
:confused:

[Nipsy]

Crashes due to Symantec (Norton) extensions
If you have tried Norton with OSX and removed it, but are still having crash problems, this may help: (from MacFixIt)

quote:Removing Norton aliases from the System Some users have reported that removing extensions to the kernel created by Symantec's Norton Utilities often resolves Apple System Profiler freeze problems. Apparently, System Profiler chokes on the Norton file, and does not proceed. Mark Rougeux writes:

"I looked in System/Library/Extensions, and found two items beginning with "Sym..." The first was SymDC.kext, which was an alias; the second SymOSXKernelUtilities. Not knowing if both had come from Symantec, and fearing the worst if I removed a file with OSX in its name, I removed the alias (had to startup into OS 9 to do so). After removing only the alias, and restarting in OS X, System Profiler works great. "



You need to remove the old extensions cache as well. (This action may help a fragile system in and of itself!). Type the following in terminal: (the % is the prompt, don't type it)

% cd /system/library/

% sudo rm -i extensions.kextcache

% sudo rm -i extensions.mkext

Now do a restart, which will take longer since the system rebuilds its extensions cach.

[Nipsy]

http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/num.nsf/78e5b95967da6a0188256b4a0078a51f/8d1c6f03e351d98788256ae600804656?OpenDocument&sone=nu_mac_7_tasks.html&stg=3&prod=Norton%20Utilities%20for%20Macintosh&ver=7.x&base=http://www.symantec.com/techsupp/num/&next=nu_mac_7_contact_tscs_other.html&src=sg&pcode=num&svy=

[PieMac]

Thanks, Nipsy. I haven't had any problems with anything as of yet, but then I also haven't ever run Norton Utilities either... Just Live update and NAV. So perhaps as long as I don't run Utilities I will be ok. I would like to keep NAV installed as I do find it useful.

[gopher]

I've had dozens of hard disks that have been zapped with nothing left by Norton except a ? disk. Boot from an external hard disk or CD, and Norton made that volume invisible. 99% of the time Disk Warrior has made disks that Norton caused to become invisible work again. The 1% of the time it didn't work, the hard drive was already dead, or in a real stiction situation that could only be fixed by opening the drive itself. What Disk Warrior does differently from Norton is that Disk Warrior looks only at the directory of the hard disk, creates a replacement for it, and asks the user if the replacement is close enough to the original it could find. Then when it replaces it, it reveals some recovered files. In all the times I've run it, the recovered files amounted to nothing more than temporary text files. Norton's File by File approach is more dangerous, and being it never really understood HFS+ fully, you are playing fire when playing with Norton. It may work for awhile, but the day that Norton kills of your hard disk, is the day you hope you have a backup handy. Because once gone, Disk Warrior is about your only salvation from Norton other than a full backup to another volume.

Even Coursey agrees:

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2862263,00.html

And he is a former Mac basher turned switcher!

Norton Anti-Virus is an OK antivirus program. But Norton Disk Doctor and Speed Disk are the dangerous products by Symantec which should be avoided unless you already have a backup handy in case of failure.

[aaron268]

Strange. Ive been doing Mac support for over 3 years at a major univeristy and a community college and I have run Norton on nearly every single mac here and have never had norton 'zap' a drive or do any harm at all. 99% of the time it solves problems. The previous Mac technician also ran norton for 5 years without it 'crashing' any mac hard drives and was the one the turned me onto it. In fact Ive had several instances of totally crashed mac's and running norton utilities brought them back to life.

I don't ever install it I boot of the CD and run disk doctor, and/or disk optimizer.

[hsilver]

Originally posted by lazyrighteye
I purchased DW2 about 6 months ago, and inquired about the next version that would fully operate under X. Was told then that DW3 would be out in a few months, and that it would cost me full price (even as a registered DW woner).
While that does sorta suck, like someone above mentioned: $70 to save your arse won't feel so bad. But it would be nice of DW to cut their users a little break. If only in principle...

lazyrighteye

I also bought Disk Warrior about six months ago. They do offer an upgrade for $47.00 incl postage. I ordered it 3 months ago and just got it last week.

[humantech]

Howdy neighbors...
I think the important thing to remember here is the end use of each of the programs listed-
Disk warrior is HANDS DOWN the best utility for repairing directories ( It doesnt actually repair them. It locates their info and constructs a new Optimized directory and plops the info into it) - HOWEVER- it does nothing for file repair ( Nortons does this very well) and nothing for hardware diagnosis other than SMART ( Version 3) - Tech tool is essential for testing for hardware dysfunction ( Even better in some cases than apples own utilities that they provide us with for warranty diagnosis)
IMHO- If you are a home user with some power user tendencies , buy disk warrior. You will love it and probably never need to use anything else- If you are a true power user( not a geek-someone whose files are his/her livelihood), buy nortons as well for file repair if you have issues along those lines- If you are a paid technician, buy everything. Its your job- Nortons, Disk warrior,Drive 10,techtool, Recovery programs, the whole works-
Ps- To anyone worried about nortons screwing up their machine, just use the installer to uninstall and then only run it from CD- No troubles there generally- (systemworks 2 if you are using os X)

As always- My 2 cents-

[gopher]

Originally posted by humantech
Howdy neighbors...
I think the important thing to remember here is the end use of each of the programs listed-
Disk warrior is HANDS DOWN the best utility for repairing directories ( It doesnt actually repair them. It locates their info and constructs a new Optimized directory and plops the info into it) - HOWEVER- it does nothing for file repair ( Nortons does this very well) and nothing for hardware diagnosis other than SMART ( Version 3) - Tech tool is essential for testing for hardware dysfunction ( Even better in some cases than apples own utilities that they provide us with for warranty diagnosis)
IMHO- If you are a home user with some power user tendencies , buy disk warrior. You will love it and probably never need to use anything else- If you are a true power user( not a geek-someone whose files are his/her livelihood), buy nortons as well for file repair if you have issues along those lines- If you are a paid technician, buy everything. Its your job- Nortons, Disk warrior,Drive 10,techtool, Recovery programs, the whole works-
Ps- To anyone worried about nortons screwing up their machine, just use the installer to uninstall and then only run it from CD- No troubles there generally- (systemworks 2 if you are using os X)

As always- My 2 cents-

I am a technician and know enough technicians who got burnt by Norton to stay clear of it. Including David Coursey:

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2862263,00.html

I will say this again, Norton Disk Doctor is Disk Kevorkian, and I challange anyone to recover a drive that Norton has corrupted by using Norton again. I've seen hundreds of drives corrupted by Norton, and it just is not the tool to use, and hasn't been since Mac OS 8.1. Norton Anti-Virus is one thing, but Disk Doctor is just as bad as it comes. It is so invasive of the disk directory it requires Disk Warrior to fix it most of the time. On rare occasions it can't repair Norton's damage, but the point being having disk utilities is fine if you don't want to waste time recovering from backup as it frequently takes less time. But don't forget to backup with Retrospect Express or Carbon Copy Cloner. It is more important to have a mirror backup of your data when using Mac OS X than having any other utility. You may save time with another utility, but if it fails, you still want to have your backup to turn to.

[humantech]

Gopher-
I also am a technician , warranty certified, Apple specialist store owner and consultant- I can only speak from experience, but I do have quite a bit of that-
I agree nortons directory repair portions are not good ( Having said that,on the the thousands of machines I and my service staff have repaired, we personally have had ZERO problems with it corrupting anything- Others have not been so lucky <g>) -
By simply using nortons to repair damaged files ( Doesnt mess with the directories or partitions at all) you have a tool other utilities do not have-
As I said for a power user who may need to make sure date and time stamping on his/her files are accurate, Or repair damage to individual files, nortons works great-
I do agree with all the points you've made- I just think you are overlooking an important feature that nortons has that nothing else offers currently-
The real key is to not install nortons and have it install filesaver data-
"Disk Kevorkian" LOL :-)
Also- Good point on reminding to back up- If I had a dollar for every minute I've spent recovering peoples data... ( Oh wait! I do!) <he-he>
Again- my 2 cents-

[gopher]

I've seen most corrupt files either corrupt simply because the Finder has no application associated with it, or the directory itself needs repair. Of course there is now the extra layer of permissions corruption that happens within X. Thank goodness Repair Privileges and Repair Permissions became possible starting with 10.1.5. The few times I've found files that are corrupted beyond repair, something else was wrong, either a hard drive nearing death which a close listening can usually tell you about, or something on the computer itself was wrong like bad RAM. I've seen people use Norton to repair files and still damage their directory. It just is a royal mess. And then when I go to ask them for their backup, they tell me: "What backup?" So there must be something about how people use Norton to repair damaged files that is safe but in reality I'm quite skeptical. I've seen enough drives damaged by Disk Doctor and enough flashing ? disks to wonder, when will people ever learn? And I'm glad you agree on the backup principle. Backup first, and foremost, worry about tinkering with utilities later. That's been my motto.

[humantech]

G-
I always Have to shake my head in amazement- I had a client with 500 GB's of ESSENTIAL information ( this company loses $7500 per hour with downtime) that had a drive failure in a 4 drive hardware raid ( 2 drives striped for performace, 2 others mirrored to the first two) - they had no backup- the data recovery cost for fast turnaround was $24,750 through drive savers ( AFTER our 10% discount ) I was able to repair and rebuild and get it back to him in 1/2 day through luck, skills and good looks- He STILL doesnt have a backup solution - His reasoning? Its "TOO expensive to buy a real rotary tape backup system" - These guys lose like $56,000 per DAY ( not to mention they go out of business if they lose everything) and they still resist backups- Funny ( but not in the HA-HA way) :-)
One thing cool about diskwarrior 3 is it uses a smart test to do a hardware test on most new drives to determine quickly if its real damage or directory or file damage....

[gopher]

Originally posted by humantech
G-
I always Have to shake my head in amazement- I had a client with 500 GB's of ESSENTIAL information ( this company loses $7500 per hour with downtime) that had a drive failure in a 4 drive hardware raid ( 2 drives striped for performace, 2 others mirrored to the first two) - they had no backup- the data recovery cost for fast turnaround was $24,750 through drive savers ( AFTER our 10% discount ) I was able to repair and rebuild and get it back to him in 1/2 day through luck, skills and good looks- He STILL doesnt have a backup solution - His reasoning? Its "TOO expensive to buy a real rotary tape backup system" - These guys lose like $56,000 per DAY ( not to mention they go out of business if they lose everything) and they still resist backups- Funny ( but not in the HA-HA way) :-)
One thing cool about diskwarrior 3 is it uses a smart test to do a hardware test on most new drives to determine quickly if its real damage or directory or file damage....

Unbelievable, and a 2 drive 500 GB Xserve raid system costs $6000. He could have saved 2/3rds his costs in recovery by buying an Apple RAID system as a redundant backup!

[humantech]

G-
Yep-
You are preaching to the converted- They are trying to skimp on the raid, and dont want to put in a backup system-
They also at some point, let someone sell them a "dual Xeon, top of the line, Gigabit ethernet server" which causes nothing but stress and slowdowns--- bummer for them--- They had MUCH better luck with a dual 800 PMac running os X server 10.1 --- Ah well- I'll keep pluggin away at them---
Nice chatting with you!

[MacsRgr8]

Another utility which is definitely worth mentioning:
Data Rescue (here (http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/1133) )

A gr8 little app designed to copy the data of crashed disks. It really is superb! I have been able to rescue all the data from 3 out of the 3 crashed disks at work with it since I got it!

I always use an iBook (Dual USB) running OS X, with Disk Warrior 3, Data Rescue, and Carbon Copy Cloner on it. Make the "to be rescued" Mac boot in Target mode, while attached to the iBook via FireWire.
A must have for the IT department.

Or make a bootable CD (with BootCD) with all these utils on it... very handy.