More G3 and IBM PPC Rumors

[MacRumors]

MacEdition (http://www.macedition.com/nmr/nmr_20030122.php) posted a Naked Mole Rat update in their usual style.

In it, they confirm previous rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/12/20021223190535.shtml) from ThinkSecret about faster G3s (aka Gobi) "which is expected to reach full production during the first calendar quarter of 2003", according to MacEdition... and hints to further G3 updates.

They also rehint (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/11/20021126091312.shtml) that future derivitive PowerPC models will be based off of IBM's high end chips... such as the Power5 chip.

[drastik]

I say bring it,

I can't decide between a 12 in powerbook or ibook, but I might go with the i bcause I won't do altivec intense tasks on an ultraportable.

[MrMacMan]

Well that is intresting, but will apple revert to the G3 over the G4?

[nuckinfutz]

Somebody please put this Blue Haired G3 out of commission. No sense in polishing this turd...time to move on.

[arnette]

I'm so very confused with the direction of Apple's processors. PB 12"? iBook? Damnit, Apple! Make it easy!

Does anyone have any good educated guesses on what the newer G3s will be used in? iBooks, right? Well then what will happen to the G4 laptops? I assume that if they go any higher in clock speed that they'll melt.

[Kid Red]

The G3 is a better chip then the G4. The G3 will get Altivec support and will get dual support and scale higher then the G4 and use less power and run cooler.

Get rid of it? HAHA, yes, it will replace the G4.

[ddtlm]

nuckinfutz:

Somebody please put this Blue Haired G3 out of commission. No sense in polishing this turd...time to move on.
The 750fx is a far better processor in terms of cost and heat than any current G4. You can go faster, but a G4 can't do it better.

Anyway I'm not sure exactly what about the G3 could reasonably be updated. The core is good because it is simple and IBM probably won't make it more complex, the FSB and stuff is already potentially faster than anything Apple actually uses, and 512k of L2 is probably all that is reasonable to put on until 90nm. Perhaps IBM intends to add AltiVec to their G3? I wonder how much more expensive that would make it, and how much hotter? It would certainly put the hurt on any G4 anywhere near it's clockspeed.

[arnette]

Originally posted by Kid Red
Get rid of it? HAHA, yes, it will replace the G4.


I don't suppose you have a time frame in mind for all this to happen, do you?

[ddtlm]

Kid Red:

The G3 is a better chip then the G4.
You meant to say that the 750fx is better than a low-clocked 7455 I'm sure, because a 7457 would address the heat and L2 cache size issues of the 7455, and increase the clockspeed out of the reach of the 750fx.

[Frobozz]

According to the article:

Mojave, which will start at 1.6 GHz, will be based on a 0.10-nanometer process and feature dynamic voltage and frequency scaling. As a result, this bantamweight will be able to run at its base speed at 1.2 V and eat up only a Callista Flockhart-size 10 W.

Sounds to me that when the Mac is moving to 970's the iBooks may be able to match wits without the vector and 64bit units.

It also states that the 970+ that IBM is working on will hit 2.5 GHz, and will be the version that Apple will use. Obviously, it seems interpretation would mean it'd start much lower, but could scale quickly. I'd expect to see something in the 1.8 to 2.2 Ghz range by the end of the year.

All in all, the NMR/GB or whatever you want to call him is only mildly accurate. But it stand to point out that no matter what IBM is capable of, things need to sync with Apple and their marketing efforts. It may not make sense for them to bust out of the gate with 2.5 Ghz if that's all they will have for another year. They may want to slowly scale from 1.6 to 2.5 over the course of a year and keep costs down.

[Frobozz]

Originally posted by ddtlm
The 750fx is a far better processor in terms of cost and heat than any current G4. You can go faster, but a G4 can't do it better.


Good point. I'd bet that a 1 GHz G3 with the same hardware (mobo, hd, ram, bus, etc.) would be faster than a G4 for everything except AltiVec enabled tasks. The thing is, math intensive tasks are hugely accelerated by AltiVec. I, for example, could never have a G3 as my main machine since I do 3D, and also rip CD's.

[avus]

Originally posted by ddtlm
Kid Red:


You meant to say that the 750fx is better than a low-clocked 7455 I'm sure, because a 7457 would address the heat and L2 cache size issues of the 7455, and increase the clockspeed out of the reach of the 750fx.

The (eternal) question is WHEN Motolora will begin full production of this chip (with .13 micron manufacturing process instead of current .18 micron)... AND the 7457-MR which will FINALLY take advantage of DDR-RAM... WHEN?

I wouldn't hold my breath.

http://www.macobserver.com/images/news/2002/20021022moto/roadmap.jpg

[yzedf]

Originally posted by drastik
I say bring it,

I can't decide between a 12 in powerbook or ibook, but I might go with the i bcause I won't do altivec intense tasks on an ultraportable.

my girlfriend had the same dilema. she is going back to school (started this week) and wanted to replace her G4 iMac.

long story --> short; she took delivery of the iBook 800 combo 40GB 640MB airport today.

it did not seem worth the extra $400+ to get the (1st revision) 12" Al-PB

[daveg5]

if ibm can use altivec in the 970 then i see no reason why they cant use it on the many1-1.5GHZ g3 processors apple is supposedly sitting on maybe this is the new G3-i/2 or g4-1/2. anyway its agood sign as it forces moto to speed things up or be replaces by ibm on both high and low end. i prefer g4 but if a had a choice between a powerbook at 1GHZ g4 or one at 1.5 GHZ g3 for a ;ower price i would choose the g3 even without altivec for a portable that is less heat better battery faster at most non altivec things. this may end up in the new imac if and only if its has altivec and reduces apples component prices
peace out

[MacKid]

Originally posted by nuckinfutz
Somebody please put this Blue Haired G3 out of commission. No sense in polishing this turd...time to move on.

It's really not that bad.:o

[Rocketman]

Mac Addict Magazine has an article about the Power 960 wherein it discusses the double pumped front side bus and its speed IIRC 600 Mhz, and the 4TB memory addressing (ramdrive anyone), and the photo of course where the chip is perhaps half the area of the Power4. It has more transistors than the G4 to handle the 12 stage pipelining (or whatever) but trivial compared to the power usage economy afforded by the smaller process used.

This thing is ready for 1.2Ghz PowerBooks coming off the line gents.

Scary-cool.

Rocketman

[goodedesign.cc]

i haven't been keeping up with what mac is RUMORED to be doing... except i heard the idea that IBM was going to be producing the next chip that went in them... a much faster chip... so it's a G3 chip? is that right? or is it just the next chip... honestly, for marketing purposes, it would be best (since it is hopefully a faster, better processor chip that allows more functions per second) that they should call it a G5.... it only makes good marketing sense... people want to FEEL they are buying a progressive machine... something that is beyond what was before... we have all seen the G3's and many of us graduated up to the G4... i kinda like mine; and i have both. from a vanity point of view... i want my G5... i want it to look cool, run OS X or Y or Z... i want it to be able to burn cds, dvds, heck, i wanna be able to put a piece of cardboard in the drive and it be able to read it... 'course, most of us like the new, fast and cool gadgets... i want my ipod to be a pda, tv, internet, laptop (with wall projection built in), not to mention cell phone, watch, planner, digital camera... but most of all, i want my G5. and it better look cool... do things better, faster, smoother... i want it to wipe my snotty nose when i have a cold... and i want a web browser that allows transparencies... i want ONE program for addresses, calander, chat, email, and internet... As Queen once said: I want it all, I want it all, and I want it now!

[ddtlm]

daveg5:

if ibm can use altivec in the 970 then i see no reason why they cant use it on the many1-1.5GHZ g3 processors apple is supposedly sitting on
You can rest assurred that Apple does not have any 1.5ghz G3's; in fact it is highly unlikely that a 750fx will get much beyond 1.0ghz, despite what the rumors are saying. The thing has a 4-stage pipeline, so there is only so much it can do.

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by ddtlm
Kid Red:


You meant to say that the 750fx is better than a low-clocked 7455 I'm sure, because a 7457 would address the heat and L2 cache size issues of the 7455, and increase the clockspeed out of the reach of the 750fx.

I'm talking about the G3 family. It's been common knowledge the G3 was a better overall chip but didn't have Altivec or dual capability. However, "MojaveMP, which will start at 1.6 GHz, will be based on a 0.10-nanometer process and feature dynamic voltage and frequency scaling. As a result, this bantamweight will be able to run at its base speed at 1.2 V and eat up only a Callista Flockhart-size 10 W." I'm not sure, but the MP stands for Multi Processor? If so, then look out. It also runs cooler. It scaled faster then the G4 as well.

Just not sure how marketing handles a G3 as a replacement for the G4.

[Maxkraft]

The g3 will never replace the g4, because it is slower and has no Vector unit. Not only that but they have the same core design so the g3 will most likely never out clock the G4. The only advantage the g3 really has is that IBM keeps it up to date. Which means it has a 512k cache and was made on a .13 process.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by drastik
I say bring it,

I can't decide between a 12 in powerbook or ibook, but I might go with the i bcause I won't do altivec intense tasks on an ultraportable.

hey, is your icon from johnny quest?

do most sun products like star office and their java and forte development stuff take advantage of altivec?

..because it certainly hogs ram like nothing i have ever seen in my life for what it is

movie editing software hogging ram makes sense and so does high end, fast moving games

[neonart]

Would the G3 not be good in dual processor setups? Apple probaly does not want to do this, but they could use the G3 for a long time if they did.

[Dont Hurt Me]

970 for the pro line and the g4 with its future bumps for the consumer line, I could be wrong but i dont see apple putting all of its eggs in one basket. Hey what if apple gets a license from ibm and builds its own chips in a factory it buys from amd??? thought i would just throw that in. we all know how motorola hurt apple and apple really had no recourse because it didnt controle the chip nor the manufactor of it. wouldnt they want to be able to controle all aspects of the cpu after going through those 500 mhz years? Lots of mysterys when it comes to apple and the cpu.

[barkmonster]

The g3 will never replace the g4, because it is slower...

speed isn't Mhz, it's efficiency.

...and has no Vector unit.

Boo hoo, I rip mp3 ALL DAY, I really do ;)

That's the only advantage the G4 has right now.

Not only that but they have the same core design so the g3 will most likely never out clock the G4.

Wrong!!

A PowerPC chip with a 512K on chip L2, a 200Mhz FSB and 4 pipeline stages is a LOT more efficient than a PowerPC chip with a 256K on chip L2, a 1 or 2Mb L3, a 167Mhz FSB and a 7 stage pipeline.

The only advantage the G3 really has is that IBM keeps it up to date. Which means it has a 512k cache and was made on a .13 process.

... and it can scale higher than a .18 process G4 can, it has a faster bus speed, in many benchmarks where Altivec isn't an issue, the 700Mhz iBook smashes the 667Mhz powerbook, I'm guessing it's the same for the 800Mhz iBook vs the 867Mhz Tibook.

Remember when the 533Mhz G4 (basically a G3 with Altivec and the FPU of a 604) was thrashing the 733Mhz G4 (longer pipeline stages, tiny L2, slow L3) ?

It's the same thing with a modern G3 vs a modern G4, one will win in a few situations where Altvec can help, the other one will win in every other situtation because it's basically a better chip.

[Maxkraft]

The g4 533 was slightly faster then the 7450 733 in a few test and that was 3 major revisions ago. The current g3 can only do 70% of the work a g4 can do per clock and with the 7457 now on the market the g4 has a 512k L2 and .13 processes. The g3 is pretty much obsolete.

[Dont Hurt Me]

I dont see apple going backward only forward,after all they now have only 1 current machine with the g3 so its just a matter of time. sticking with g4's consumer,970's to come in the pro. look 1 gig imac now, maybe 1.2 by christmas, maybe 1.3 or so next year so you could see the g4 in the imac for at least a couple more years easily! The powermac is a whole another story, it is screaming for a new chip and we still have not gotton an official response on how the g4 is clocking at 1.42. Motorola & Apple are not talking. can you say clocking the piss out of it! This is what i think and that all of this is to make due untill the new g5 or whatever they will call the 970. a new 970 and 9700 radeon will laugh at Doom3 and any other app you may throw at it.

[Falleron]

My concern is that the G3 does not have a future. Apple's Keynote if I remember correctly requires a G4! Its only a matter of time before more programs go this way. My concern is that if I was to buy a G3 iBook now I would be completed stuck in the not so distant future. What do you think?

[razorme]

Keynote runs just fine on a G3. QuickTime movie playback is choppy, but I think I have heard G4 owners complain about that too.

[neonart]

Apple would not release an app that wont run on one of their best sellers. The G3 will have life for at least a couple of years. But more and more apps will use Altivec and make the G3 less desireable unless IBM adds this feature.

[macphoria]

-----Apple would not release an app that wont run on one of their best sellers. The G3 will have life for at least a couple of years.

I agree. G3 is perfectly fine for non-professional applications, which iBook is supposed to be, a consumer laptop not professional laptop.

-----But more and more apps will use Altivec and make the G3 less desireable unless IBM adds this feature.

I wonder if general consumer apps will really need Altivec function? Maybe exception of iMovie and Quicktime? Should there be need for G3 with Altivec like feature, G4 will probably take its place in iBook.

[neonart]

Originally posted by macphoria

I wonder if general consumer apps will really need Altivec function? Maybe exception of iMovie and Quicktime? Should there be need for G3 with Altivec like feature, G4 will probably take its place in iBook.

No, they probably won't need Altivec for iMonkey or whatever other iApp they do. But just for marketing they may make it so that G4 powered machines run it better and people are more likely to spend more.
And that's not an evil Apple thing, just a standard marketing ploy most manufacturers use.

[yzedf]

Originally posted by Maxkraft
The g4 533 was slightly faster then the 7450 733 in a few test and that was 3 major revisions ago. The current g3 can only do 70% of the work a g4 can do per clock and with the 7457 now on the market the g4 has a 512k L2 and .13 processes. The g3 is pretty much obsolete.

You are so funny.

We all know that both the G3 and the G4 are obsolete.

Why else does everyone want the 970?

The G3 vs G4 is much like a AMD vs Intel situation. AMD cost analysis beats the pants off of Intel, but the Intel is "faster" for some things.

For the G4 to be even close to comparable to the latest x86 hardware it takes skewed benchmarks (altivec optimized and dual proc aware photoshop) as well as 2 processors! Weak.

[macphoria]

-----No, they probably won't need Altivec for iMonkey or whatever other iApp they do. But just for marketing they may make it so that G4 powered machines run it better and people are more likely to spend more.
And that's not an evil Apple thing, just a standard marketing ploy most manufacturers use.

This is true. That is how planned obsolescence works.

[nighthawk]

Originally posted by daveg5
if ibm can use altivec in the 970 then i see no reason why they cant use it on the many1-1.5GHZ g3 processors apple is supposedly sitting on maybe this is the new G3-i/2 or g4-1/2. anyway its agood sign as it forces moto to speed things up or be replaces by ibm on both high and low end. i prefer g4 but if a had a choice between a powerbook at 1GHZ g4 or one at 1.5 GHZ g3 for a ;ower price i would choose the g3 even without altivec for a portable that is less heat better battery faster at most non altivec things. this may end up in the new imac if and only if its has altivec and reduces apples component prices
peace out

Apple owns the "Gx" name, and if they wanted to call G3 chips with Altivec compatible vector unit a "G4" or a "G4+", they could. This may be what Apple does when the IBM 970 chip comes to the powerbooks (which could be as soon as the 970 is mass produced as the heat disappation is lower than the G4 when running at 1.0-1.4ghz.)

[macphoria]

Speaking of which, do any of you know how "G" thing came about?

[neonart]

Originally posted by macphoria
Speaking of which, do any of you know how "G" thing came about?

It stands for Generation.

[hacurio1]

Originally posted by Kid Red
I'm talking about the G3 family. It's been common knowledge the G3 was a better overall chip but didn't have Altivec or dual capability. However, "MojaveMP, which will start at 1.6 GHz, will be based on a 0.10-nanometer process and feature dynamic voltage and frequency scaling. As a result, this bantamweight will be able to run at its base speed at 1.2 V and eat up only a Callista Flockhart-size 10 W." I'm not sure, but the MP stands for Multi Processor? If so, then look out. It also runs cooler. It scaled faster then the G4 as well.

Just not sure how marketing handles a G3 as a replacement for the G4.

MojaveMP is the evolution of a G3.....but please don't call it a G3 because it isn't . G3 is an Apple’s marketing department name. MojaveMP promises to be a great chip, and it would be great for customer level Macs. Power Macs will have the 970’s, which seem really impressive. As far as the current G3s goes, they are great chips but you can’t compare them to a G4. Altivec is not the only advantage of the current G4s. just check out the benchmarks.

[beatle888]

Originally posted by drastik
I say bring it,

I can't decide between a 12 in powerbook or ibook, but I might go with the i bcause I won't do altivec intense tasks on an ultraportable.


yea but the os is better suited for a g4...and
the graphics cards are nice. i only have 16mb
of vram. i would love more...oh well.

anyway. the newer ibooks are probably faster
than this old 667tibook. so either way you'll
be happy, hopefully.