Are Mac games going to be UBs or Intel only? [Archive]

Kimi

Feb 28, 2006, 05:24 PM

I was talking with my friend about the new Will Write game Spore saying how it looked cool and such. He then something about me not being able to play it (as I use a Mac). I pointed out most games like that get ported (Sim City, The sims, The Movies). He agreed with that saying that there's a good chance it'll be ported. The next thing he said was about games going to Intel chips, and that I have a PPC iMac.

I told him about the UBs, but he said that was only for applications, not games. He read somewhere that games are only going to work on Intel Macs and that they won't work with older computers.

I want to make sure he's wrong, I'm not wanting to buy anything more than the minimum (or there abouts) iBook replacement when they come out. I'm not going to be able to play games with that.

Anyone got any input?

Patmian212

Feb 28, 2006, 05:29 PM

I´m not sure about that particular game but UBs are certainly used for games, look at UT04, WoW, Doom 3 and Quake 3. I do however think in 1 or 2 years time the amount of games going to be made for PPC macs will go down.

Josh396

Feb 28, 2006, 05:30 PM

Well for the time being I think we'll see most games in UB, unless everyone who owns a PPC Mac throws theirs away and buys a brand new Intel machine. Currently WoW is running in UB, as well as doom and UT 2004. If a developer is going to develop a game for Intel only it wouldn't even be worth it because so few people have Intel Macs that play games so they won't see any money coming in. Maybe in three years or so we'll begin to see only Intel programs but not any sooner than that.

Eric5h5

Feb 28, 2006, 05:58 PM

I told him about the UBs, but he said that was only for applications, not games. He read somewhere that games are only going to work on Intel Macs and that they won't work with older computers.

Well, he's wrong. Eventually that will be true, but not for a while. All games this year will be UBs for sure. Eventually, all apps will only work on Intel Macs too...nothing particularly special about games. It depends on how soon the user base as a whole moves over to x86.

--Eric

drew336

Feb 28, 2006, 07:22 PM

Eric5h5

Feb 28, 2006, 09:43 PM

Aspyr said they would ship patches for 6-8 of there current games to make them UB's, they also said that all games coming out this year would be UB's but, starting next year all new games will ship as Intel-only.

Er, no, they never said that. What they said was: "This hits the nail on the head - I still see us doing PowerPC versions of most games for a couple years. But it won't surprise me if we had a game that just wouldn't run on any but the most high end G5 desktops by the end of '06. And if that happens, it probably won't be worth the extra development to do both Intel & PowerPC for a game like that, so we might ship Intel only."

--Eric

drew336

Feb 28, 2006, 10:30 PM

Er, no, they never said that. What they said was: "This hits the nail on the head - I still see us doing PowerPC versions of most games for a couple years. But it won't surprise me if we had a game that just wouldn't run on any but the most high end G5 desktops by the end of '06. And if that happens, it probably won't be worth the extra development to do both Intel & PowerPC for a game like that, so we might ship Intel only."

--Eric

Ms. Adams reported that Aspyr will likely make the move to Intel-only in "late 2006 at the earliest, and maybe not until 2007."

from http://www.macobserver.com/gamingnews/2006/01/25.2.shtml

Marathon4ever

Mar 1, 2006, 12:32 AM

Eric5h5

Mar 1, 2006, 11:21 PM

from http://www.macobserver.com/gamingnews/2006/01/25.2.shtml

Cute, because my quote was from that very same Ms. Adams on insidemacgames.com. ;) However, note that there isn't any particular contradiction. "Moving to Intel-only" means just for those "most high end" games, not the entire product line.

Games like Half-Life 2 will never be ported to the Mac, period, PPC or x86, for reasons that have been discussed in-depth elsewhere. Any gaming companies moving entirely to x86-only "quickly" would find that their sales will quickly be quite low, as the vast majority of the user base is on PPC right now, and will remain the majority for some time. UB yes, x86-only no, for most titles, for probably about the next two years. Remember, this isn't PC land...Mac users generally don't upgrade as often.

--Eric

Kimi

Mar 2, 2006, 01:20 AM

So there they'll try and release most games as UBs, but fot the games where the PPC machines are too weak, they'll only release a Intel version. Seems logical to me. (But isn't a quad a damn powerful machine that could run high end games if given the chance?)

yoda13

Mar 2, 2006, 01:41 AM

I think it will be the middle of 2007 at the earliest before we see a title that only ships for Intel. A quad powermac or a dual 2.7 powermac are two ppc machines that should be able to play the latest games, at least in terms of hardware specs, for the foreseable near future.

Soulstorm

Mar 2, 2006, 02:54 AM

Eventually, all games will be intel-only. And that may be sooner than you think. Aspyr announced that they will proceed to Intel-Only architecture in late 2006.

blaster_boy

Mar 2, 2006, 05:16 AM

BornAgainMac

Mar 2, 2006, 05:34 AM

Wine on linux(intel) so far is able to run some pretty graphic intensive games, Transgamer is still alive living on selling subscriptions to a tweaked version of Wine, so why wouldn't the same be possible for mac on intel ?

Anyone agree with me ?

What if they want to make more money? Go to any store that sells Macs and look at the game section. It is horrific. I bet if one really good game is sold for the Mac, they would make a killing compared to having that game mixed in with hundreds of other games on the Windows side.

The game developer will make more from the small percentage of Mac users compared to having grab a small percentage of Windows users that selected their game out of many games. This assumes the game is a Universal Binary and not some OS 9 game that won't run in classic.

blaster_boy

Mar 2, 2006, 07:34 AM

@BornAgainMac,

Unless it is a homebrew with a low development cost, ie two guys and their cat wrote it in their bedroom, using possibilities that only mac os x offers, making a very good game that only works on mac would not seem logical.

But hey! I wouldn't mind being proven wrong, you know! :D

Until now most companies write games for windows machines, and then port them over. Most now even seem to start with a console version that is then ported to Windows.

It seems to me that the rule for bigbudget games is : start with the largest group of people that can be reached (and thus give you the most income), and work your ways downwards.

And remember Bungie with Halo ? It was supposed to come out for mac first, but in the end it came out first for... microsoft xbox. Then for windows, and finally for the mac.

gnasher729

Mar 2, 2006, 08:56 AM

It really doesn't matter what Aspyr says. They will move to Intel-only games very quickly, as will most other companies I believe. It makes no sense to continue games on the PPC. It's all about the x86 now.

Games like Half-Life 2 will never be ported to PPC - only to Intel.

I am sure a little detail like 90 percent of Macs using PowerPC can be safely ignored. Being able to sell to the 10 percent with Intel Macs is just so much cooler.

In reality, they will stop making PowerPC based games when the next low-end iMac model is so advanced that you can create games for it that would be unplayable on a current dual core G5 (quad core G5 may be a minority that can be ignored). That day is far, far away.

whooleytoo

Mar 2, 2006, 10:01 AM

The Mac gamer market is small enough as it is without dropping PPCs. Even though having to test on both Intel & PowerPC Macs is an added inconvenience, no one is going to ship Intel only games until they ship a game that's too beefy for PPC machines anyway - at that point dropping PPC support would be a non-issue.

Of course, at the rate game technology progresses, that's probably no more than a year to 18 months away.

Poff

Mar 2, 2006, 10:35 AM

If more games gets ported to mac because of the intel-processor reducing porting-costs, those games will prolly not be universal binary. The biggest titles will, for a while. It all depends how big a PPC-userbase there is out there. PPC might very well be supported throughout 2007 if it's economically viable. That also means that less requiring games (in terms of processor speed) will get UB, while games that cannot be run on PPC will be intel only. (logical)

Marathon4ever

Mar 2, 2006, 12:18 PM

Games like Half-Life 2 will never be ported to the Mac, period, PPC or x86, for reasons that have been discussed in-depth elsewhere. Any gaming companies moving entirely to x86-only "quickly" would find that their sales will quickly be quite low, as the vast majority of the user base is on PPC right now, and will remain the majority for some time. UB yes, x86-only no, for most titles, for probably about the next two years. Remember, this isn't PC land...Mac users generally don't upgrade as often.

--Eric
Half-Life 2 will be ported to the Mac.... cause if it doesn't, then I'm personally going to break down Valve's doors and beat them over the head with a puck mouse.

clayj

Mar 2, 2006, 12:46 PM

Half-Life 2 will be ported to the Mac.... cause if it doesn't, then I'm personally going to break down Valve's doors and beat them over the head with a puck mouse.Maybe you should talk to the people who license the Havok engine to Valve... it's apparently because they want too much for a Mac-compatible Havok engine that Valve ain't doing HL2 for the Mac.

Marathon4ever

Mar 2, 2006, 01:26 PM

Maybe you should talk to the people who license the Havok engine to Valve... it's apparently because they want too much for a Mac-compatible Havok engine that Valve ain't doing HL2 for the Mac.
Yeah, the Havok guys are schmucks too, but Valve is the real problem, what with their stupid Steam BS and all.

Marathon4ever

Mar 2, 2006, 01:33 PM

I don't really care if they port them or not. I even think that mac game porting firms will disappear soonish.

My stab at the future is that, unless a game has mac-specific items associated with it, ie made specifically for mac, game ports to the mac will dwindle to nothing within a few years (probably when ppc macs die out).

My bet is on Wine (or Darwine), or any other emulation program for mac-intel that will emulate windows so that you run your game with only a small speed loss inside the emulation.

Wine on linux(intel) so far is able to run some pretty graphic intensive games, Transgamer is still alive living on selling subscriptions to a tweaked version of Wine, so why wouldn't the same be possible for mac on intel ?

Anyone agree with me ?
Your neanderthal thinking needs to die out. Wine is not the answer, it's crap. Once the Mac market grows with the new Intel machines, the demand for Mac ports of games will rise, not fall.

Further into the future, once Windows bites the dust, all the games will be natively coded on Macs. That will signify the end of Mac ports.

Marathon4ever

Mar 2, 2006, 01:39 PM

I am sure a little detail like 90 percent of Macs using PowerPC can be safely ignored. Being able to sell to the 10 percent with Intel Macs is just so much cooler.

In reality, they will stop making PowerPC based games when the next low-end iMac model is so advanced that you can create games for it that would be unplayable on a current dual core G5 (quad core G5 may be a minority that can be ignored). That day is far, far away.
The switch to Intel Macs will be much faster and greater than you think. This chip switch has monumental implications. It's not just some small potatoes hardware substition.

Eric5h5

Mar 2, 2006, 02:50 PM

Half-Life 2 will be ported to the Mac.... cause if it doesn't, then I'm personally going to break down Valve's doors and beat them over the head with a puck mouse.

Good luck with that. Make sure you get it on video.

--Eric

Poff

Mar 2, 2006, 03:10 PM

The switch to Intel Macs will be much faster and greater than you think. This chip switch has monumental implications. It's not just some small potatoes hardware substition.

They'll first have to have a market. People don't upgrade their Macs to play the newest games. The games will have to come to the Macs that people actually use. If 90% uses PPC, the great amount of work it takes to make a Universal binary will be rewarded. When we're down to 40-50% PPC's, we'll see a great decline in PPC/UB games.

It's all about market and demand, you know. If 90% of the users wants to pay for it, you give it to them.

Marathon4ever

Mar 2, 2006, 04:05 PM

They'll first have to have a market. People don't upgrade their Macs to play the newest games. The games will have to come to the Macs that people actually use. If 90% uses PPC, the great amount of work it takes to make a Universal binary will be rewarded. When we're down to 40-50% PPC's, we'll see a great decline in PPC/UB games.

It's all about market and demand, you know. If 90% of the users wants to pay for it, you give it to them.
I always upgrade my Mac to play the newest games, and for no other reason than that. Been doing that since I had my first Mac, a Performa 450.

Obviously, if 90% of users are using PPC, then there will be a UB port. My point was that the percentage of users using Intels will raise to 90% very quickly. Also, the Intels will pull many new users over from Windows.

Eric5h5

Mar 2, 2006, 06:18 PM

I always upgrade my Mac to play the newest games, and for no other reason than that. Been doing that since I had my first Mac, a Performa 450.

That makes you pretty unusual then.

Obviously, if 90% of users are using PPC, then there will be a UB port. My point was that the percentage of users using Intels will raise to 90% very quickly.

What makes you think so?

--Eric

Marathon4ever

Mar 3, 2006, 01:18 AM

What makes you think so?

--Eric
Are you kidding me?? There are a ton of developers who are going to jump onto the Mac platform simply because it's running the same hardware as PCs now -- especially game developers. So, natuarally, if these new developers create an Intel-only version of their software, Mac users who want it will upgrade their Macs, and PC users who are sick of Windows will make the switch finally.

I'm getting a new machine as soon as the newest games go Intel-only, and keep in mind I just bought my dual 2Ghz last summer. I usually wait about 5 years before I get a new machine. The Intel chip is a huge reason to upgrade sooner.

blaster_boy

Mar 3, 2006, 02:48 AM

Your neanderthal thinking needs to die out. Wine is not the answer, it's crap. Once the Mac market grows with the new Intel machines, the demand for Mac ports of games will rise, not fall.

Further into the future, once Windows bites the dust, all the games will be natively coded on Macs. That will signify the end of Mac ports.

Dream on, I say. As for my neanderthal thinking, maybe I'm off the beaten (flogged to death) track here, but I still think I'm right.

And wine is definitely *not* crap. Have you used it or used Transgaming soft ?

IF the new intel mac becomes popular, I agree that more and more games will be ported for it, it all depends on how much people will use the new macs.

Oh, and I suggest you go pummel valve *now* - you can't seriously think that they will still put an huge effort in porting HL2 to the mac when it's been out for the pc for ages...

Marathon4ever

Mar 3, 2006, 03:32 AM

Dream on, I say. As for my neanderthal thinking, maybe I'm off the beaten (flogged to death) track here, but I still think I'm right.

And wine is definitely *not* crap. Have you used it or used Transgaming soft ?

Letsee.... what runs on Wine??.... oh yeah, Windows!!!.... which is TOTAL CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

blaster_boy

Mar 3, 2006, 04:15 AM

Letsee.... what runs on Wine??.... oh yeah, Windows!!!.... which is TOTAL CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, no. You haven't really looked at wine.

Wine does not run windows, it lets you run windows applications or games that use the windows api like direct3D, for example.

You don't actually need windows on top of wine to enjoy the many games that are written for windows.

For more info on wine, visit WinehQ (http://www.winehq.com/).

Marathon4ever

Mar 3, 2006, 11:04 AM

Actually, no. You haven't really looked at wine.

Wine does not run windows, it lets you run windows applications or games that use the windows api like direct3D, for example.

You don't actually need windows on top of wine to enjoy the many games that are written for windows.

For more info on wine, visit WinehQ (http://www.winehq.com/).
When you use Windows programs in Wine, you are perpetuating the popularity of Windows when don't need to be, nor should be.

You are a complete fool if you think Wine is the answer. What is with you Mac Users who don't understand what Microsoft truly represents?

Haoshiro

Mar 3, 2006, 11:31 AM

Yeah, they own Marathon...

whooleytoo

Mar 3, 2006, 11:36 AM

Yeah, they own Marathon...

Really? I thought *I* pwned Marathon! :p

Eric5h5

Mar 3, 2006, 12:18 PM

Are you kidding me?? There are a ton of developers who are going to jump onto the Mac platform simply because it's running the same hardware as PCs now -- especially game developers.

Where is your evidence for this? I've seen none whatsoever. The switch to x86 does mean that games can be ported somewhat faster (as long as the port is x86-only), but on the other hand, you have people wanting to run WINE or dual-boot into Windows to play games. Developers see this, and therefore figure "why bother to make a Mac version, if people are just going to use the Windows version on their Macs anyway."

x86 giveth and taketh away.

So, natuarally, if these new developers create an Intel-only version of their software, Mac users who want it will upgrade their Macs, and PC users who are sick of Windows will make the switch finally.

Um, yeah, that's all based on a pretty big "if", isn't it? :)

--Eric

whooleytoo

Mar 3, 2006, 12:24 PM

Where is your evidence for this? I've seen none whatsoever. The switch to x86 does mean that games can be ported somewhat faster (as long as the port is x86-only)

To be honest, I think the only significant benefit of the switch to x86 (from a game developers' point of view) is that both Macs & PCs will be closely matched in performance going forward.

Not having to scale up/scale down performance when porting to the other platform simplifies the process quite a bit.