Apple iTunes Movie Service Survey

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Appleinsider claims (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1567) that Apple is in the "intermediate stages" of developing a full blown Movie download service through iTunes.

The information appears to be based on a survey distributed by a research firm asking questions about a potential "iTunes music service" that could be downloaded to your computer or iPod. The survey specifies that users would be required to have a broadband connection and the movies would be offered by monthly subscription.

With the monthly subscription basis, users would have unlimited access to the library of movies. Cost models proposed includes a $9.99 monthly fee, but also considers on a per-movie purchase option similar to the current iTunes song model.

There is no evidence that Apple commissioned the survey or if it means that an Apple movie service is in the works, but several analysts did expect (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/02/20060224073037.shtml) an iTunes Movie service for the February 28th announcement. It was unclear, however, if these predictions were based entirely on speculation or from informed sources.

In January, Vongo launched (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/01/20060103004456.shtml) a similar subscription-based movie service, but is still not available for Mac users.

[mlrproducts]

I don't like subscriptions for songs - but movies come and go - most are not that hot nowadays - I would GLADLY pay half of what I do for Netflix as long as it is QUALITY.

I don't tend to watch most movies more than once by choice - but even with this you could download it again. I wouldn't mind DRM at all as long as there comes some device to watch it in AT LEAST 480p on a TV.

[kwajo.com]

sounds great! sign me up!

[Blackheart]

I would do that in a heart beat.

[G5Unit]

Please let in be in at least DVD quality or NO!

[runninmac]

I would mind getting it, just hand me a touch screen iPod and ill be all set:D

[Demon Hunter]

Hear, hear!

No subscriptions!

Tiered movie prices!

[stoid]

It would go very nicely with the new Mac Mini, that's for sure. It would be a thrill if I could also get an AirVideo Express, and get surround sound audio and at least a good looking SD video feed. I would sign up in a heartbeat under those circumstances.

[narco]

Well, it is the next logical step. My only question is if it's going to be all integrated with the Music store. If so, what will it be called? iTunes Music Store? Doesn't really make a lot of sense.

I also hope this doesn't mean the quality of the movies will go down to the same resolution as the current TV shows.

Fishes,
narco.

[stoid]

Hear, hear!

No subscriptions!

Tiered movie prices!

I think that a subscription makes sense for movies. People like renting movies nearly as much or maybe more than buying them. Provided the quality is comparable, I'd be up for it.

A friend of mine just got an HD-DVD player, and it does a phenomenal job of upscaling DVDs on his HDTV. Would Apple be likely to include a similar chip-set in a wireless box to stream the video in standard def h.264 and have it decompressed and upscaled in the box for the tv?

[laidbackliam]

could be good

i second the notion of paying half of what i do for netflix.

but if i have the right to purchase it, i want to be able to go to iDVD, and burn a dvd of it. i can back up my dvds through fair use doctrines, so i would love to be able to but stuff i download on a dvd (not as data)

[yoda13]

I won't do if it isn't a purchase model similar to ones they have now. I don't like subscriptions. I wonder what prices would be if they did do the buying of the movies and not subscriptions?

[stoid]

but if i have the right to purchase it, i want to be able to go to iDVD, and burn a dvd of it. i can back up my dvds through fair use doctrines, so i would love to be able to but stuff i download on a dvd (not as data)

And there is the selling feature for all of iLife '07! Just like iPhoto has been the big cash cow for '05 and '06 (yeah, yeah iWeb this, iWeb that... ;) )

[Cooknn]

Subscription works for me - but only if the movies are in Hi-Def :cool:

[miketcool]

I would love the idea of having movies instantly, I am ever so sick of Blockbuster and Netflix mostly because I decide on a whim and dont want to wait/go out. Quality I am sure is a factor as well is price. Jobs has repeatedly stated over and over about how many times you watch a movie vs. your favorite song. That is the hardest decision, subscribe, rent or watch. Tough call, good luck with the survey!!

[kwajo.com]

EDIT: mlrproducts and kwajo.com hate to break it to you but there was already a small thread going on about this...

shhh, don't ruin my fun :p

[kalisphoenix]

I would do that in a heart beat.

That Stephen Friedman you quote -- is he a friend of yours or a celebrity or ?

One of my good friends goes by that name (though his real name is "Klaar") and is presently impersonating a human in that area.

[Bubbasteve]

Hi-Def :cool:

Yeah... right. Then again it's Apple and anything could happen but I doubt that they would release the movies in HD... more like DVD Quality (hopefully :rolleyes: )

[lord patton]

The information appears to be based on a survey distributed by a research firm asking questions...

distributed to whom, and at whose request?

The original article guesses that no one but Apple would contract such a survey. Maybe, but does anyone need a survey to figure out people will subscribe to a movie service for 10-20 bucks a month?

Apple does music and tv. They'll do movies soon, and I imagine Disney/Pixar will be first.

[dombi]

I would definitely pay 10USD a month for such a service. I hope that the video size would be at least twice of what iTunes offers now. That would be good enough for most TVs. DVD quality would be even better.

This would be an amazing service. I can see people buying Mac minis with Front Row just to use this service. I know I would.

[Oblivious]

Well, it is the next logical step. My only question is if it's going to be all integrated with the Music store. If so, what will it be called? iTunes Music Store? Doesn't really make a lot of sense.

I also hope this doesn't mean the quality of the movies will go down to the same resolution as the current TV shows.

Fishes,
narco.
How 'bout iTunes Media Store?:o :p

[~Shard~]

The devil is in the details.

- How much would the subscription be per month? Would it be unlimited?
- Will there also be an individual purchase option? How much per movie? Tiered pricing for older versus newer movies, or flat rate?
- What is the resolution? Widesrceen? If so, how would one watch them on their iPod (unless a new one is coming out! :eek: ;))

Lots and lots of questions, and as a result, lots of variables. I say it's too hard to say whether or not this service will be a success or not until we get more details on it.

At least one thing we know for sure is what Apple's using that new Data Center for. ;) :cool:

[javabear90]

I know my family and I would DEFIANTLY do this service... if it was subscription based and the quality was good. I will defiantly not except anything less than 640 x 480. However, I have a bad feeling that it will be the same iPod format. HOWEVER, if this new video iPod has a nice(er) screen, it could mean that the movies will be released in higher resolution.

[MrSmith]

I see Vongo is US only. Someone can explain that. Surely Universal own their movies throughout the world. Oh, well. Another year of "What about [enter country of domicile here]?" threads.

Regarding subscription service, I've no idea the usual terms, but can't you just subscribe when there are movies you want, then unsubscribe the next month, then subscribe again when necessary, etc?

[Keebler]

i think this is coming and will be awesome.

a few notes:
1. i doubt every movie would be high def. just think of the bandwidth issues for regular movies...think of the file sizes for high def. i'm no expert, but i know the HD trailers from quicktime are pretty hefty files compared to regular.

2. would be nice if we can burn the DVDs to play in a home theatre set up, but I realize there will be piracy issues

3. pricing - it will be interesting to see if the movie execs learn from the music industry execs, who are biatching to get a bigger piece of the pie. Apple won the first round of Itunes b/c i'm sure the music execs didn't think it would do as well as it did so they maybe gave up more in the beginning. i don't think the movie folks will be so forgiving. would be cool to have a subscription with an offer to buy a discounted movie that you've rented. Or, maybe Apple won't do this so avoid PO'ing the movie companies from making their gabillions of DVD sales.

4. internationally. - please let Canada and the other countries in on the fun too. i know it's not apple's fault, but pls expediate it :)

[maveness]

Well, it is the next logical step. My only question is if it's going to be all integrated with the Music store. If so, what will it be called? iTunes Music Store? Doesn't really make a lot of sense.

How about "iTunes MEDIA Store?"

[EDIT: This was obvious enough that somebody else already came up with it.]

[Superdrive]

I have a tough time finding one movie worth $10. I don't think I could justify $120 a year to watch subpar movies. But that's just me, I haven't rented a movie in a long, long time.

[DOUGHNUT]

if it is indeed monthly subscription model, release a real widescreen video iPod, and allow users to download movies for $9.99 a month....I smell a potential killer product that will revolutionize movie viewing like the iPod revolutionized music.

[daysleeper]

I wonder how Netflix has strategized about this one. How long would it take to download a movie?

If it could be done in the time it takes to make dinner, that would be ideal. "Die Hard will be ready by the time we finish the quiche, dear."

[age234]

I'd do it for $10, even with movies at the current size and not being able to burn them.

Now, if we get the Gutless Mini Airport Set-top Video Streamer and a full-face iPod, it would be awesome.

[nagromme]

Netflix has 55,000 titles. Independent movies, foreign films, TV shows, documentaries... it would take a while for Apple to match that. But they'd have to in order to convince me to switch from Netflix.

But if they managed that, I'd love the convenience of downloading my rentals--especially if they would play even while still downloading.

[dashiel]

i can back up my dvds through fair use doctrines, so i would love to be able to but stuff i download on a dvd (not as data)


no you can't... i mean you can, but you're breaking the law by doing it. the backup copy isn't illegal, but the copy software breaks macrovision encryption which is a violation of the DMCA and punishable by time in prison and fines.

there is no way in hell that apple will allow users to burn playable copies of any downloaded video content to disc.

[derajfast]

what about streaming it to your tv/comp w/ front row? wouldnt take as much bandwidth? could be watched a few times. or you could buy it for like 8 dollars. not everyone will buy it, limiting the bandwidth needed


i say the ipod video has wireless access to DL/purchase content from itunes. (just simple wifi)....OR airport express for video....however id say the video ipod is incorporated before the airport express with video because the ipod has a MUCH better name in non mac households than the airport, and its a name they trust and are familiar with. so i see the video ipod being more then just an ipod for video. theres more to it. touch screen remote for itunes media store.

who knows

[Doctor Q]

Last year we were debating the merits of iTunes ownership for music, in comparison with Rhapsody-style subscription services, where you can sample all you like but are left with nothing when you stop paying for a subscription. See this thread, for example.

Now the same question applies to movies. Will most consumers prefer to pay for permanent movie ownership (subject to DRM, akin to iTunes) or to have watching-rights-only during a subscription period?

The results of the survey provided one answer, but what do WE think?

[Phat_Pat]

purchasing movies should come with the option of burning onto dvd via iDVD or iTunes and still have the retail dvd look


sometimes the menus are just as cool as the movie (zoolander anyone?)

just my personal opinion

[narco]

How about "iTunes MEDIA Store?"

[EDIT: This was obvious enough that somebody else already came up with it.]

How is it obvious? The word "iTunes" still references "Tunes." I'm not talking about the "music store" part.

Fishes,
narco.

[mackeeper]

What about Apple iMedia Store

[sam10685]

lets hope the announcement of this comes with some other massive improvements to the apple product line...

[Kernow]

I'm not a fan of subscriptions for music, but I would be much more willing to go down this route for movies. Like others have said, I tend to only watch most films once (as opposed to music which I listen to again and again), so buying them outright wouldn't really be necessary.

Having said that, there are some movies which I do watch again and again, so I hope that if Apple do implement this, there will be an option to buy individual movies.

Also, as everyone else has mentioned, the quality has to be good.

[winmacguy]

It's all great BUT there is still no music store in NZ to warrant buying or downloading the movies. Apple NZ is currently running their iTunes ad promoting music exclusively from the music store with a disclaimer saying 'iTunes music store not available in New Zealand'
Duh!:mad:

[(L)]

Hear, hear!

No subscriptions!

Tiered movie prices!

Agreed. Why turn away everybody but the people that expect to download long movies every month? Plus, not every movie will be of the same value, so tiered pricing is in order.

[ScottB]

If it's pay-per-watch I wouldn't watch any. I would rather own the video or buy a physical DVD at full quality. I just don't think this will take off like the music store. I hope it has local streaming built in for full lenght videos so I can watch peoples the same way as I listen to their music :p

[ScottB]

If they do go ahead with this I would want them to split the iTunes application. I would rather not have to play videos in iTunes.

[eva01]

i hope so much that it isn't a monthly subscription and they have anime i would be super pissed because i wouldn't buy anything

[BoyBach]

"Watch as many movies as you want, as often as you want -- all commercial free with no charge per view."

"Instead of subscribing for $9.99 a month to download the offered movies, another option is to buy the movies individually," the survey reads. "You would be able to select any movie available on this service, download it to your PC where you can keep it as long as you like. You would be able to view it on your computer as well as play it on your video capable iPod."


A very interesting article, which if true would be another cash cow for Apple - it would surely drive the uptake of video iPods and new Mac's with Front Row.

I know I would subscribe to a film rental service - but i live in the UK so we probably wouldn't see it for another year or two. :D

[darh]

Could this be the reason why apple bought that data center a couple of days ago? Because i think they will need a LOT of space to host all those movies, escpecially when they are in hi def...

[Keebler]

hey folks,

perhaps this should be a seperate chat, but I was thinking about the quality of dloaded movies versus the obvious issue of bandwidth.

with the prevalence of torrents out there, is it technically possible for apple to set up a cluster of machines in their recently purchased data warehouse to act as 'torrents'? I was thinking that if they had a pile of machines, they could just send DVD type files as the dloading would be faster?

I'm NOT a technically savvy person about servers and dloading so I may be way off. I just know I read an article a while back (can't find! :( which described on of the torrent companies possibly going 'good' like napster and working with a company like Apple to provide that service. i was thinking it would be the only real way to get this done?

thoughts? am i way off here?

[achie25]

I would be interested in this. Damn Apple. It will make me finally break down and get a video ipod! :rolleyes:

[shamino]

...the copy software breaks macrovision encryption which is a violation of the DMCA
Macrovision is an analog protection scheme that prevents you from attaching a VCR to a DVD player. Use of a video stabilizer/filter device to remove its garbage from the video signal is not illegal.

CSS is the encryption on a DVD. The DMCA prevents you from breaking it or distributing software that breaks it. But the DMCA only affects US citizens. Don't forget that MacRumors is an international forum. It may well be legal in the country laidbackliam lives in.
there is no way in hell that apple will allow users to burn playable copies of any downloaded video content to disc.
I suspect Apple may be OK with this, but they don't own the copyright to most content. Of course, if they should buy Disney/ABC, that may change ;)

[shamino]

I like the concept, but the pricing concerns me.

$10/mo for a subscription service isn't a bad deal, given the fact that services like Netflix cost $18/mo for the more popular plans.

Not being able to burn to DVD concerns me, but I'm sure someone will come up with software to break that sooner or later.

$13/movie for purchase is insane. Charging almost the same price as a DVD for lower quality and no bonus features will never be acceptable.

[alywa]

This would be a major blow to Netflix. There is absolutely no reason that this would be limited to just 1,000 titles a month.

Basically, this would become the ultimate HBO / Showtime / Pay-per-view killer, if the quality is good. I agree that it is going to have to start at DVD quality, and upgrade to HD as bandwidth / internet speeds allow over the next 5 years.

Just imagine: AFI top 100, the complete disney vault, the hard to find foreign and small release films, seldom seen documentaries, plus all of the new hollywood releases, a remote click away. I know for a fact that I would drop HBO and cut my DirecTV back to basic with HD package if this actually happens.

Of course, it will have to be PC and mac compatible, and will have to have a streaming video / wifi type set-top box. There is no way they would release this and simply have it work only with front-row equipped macs, plus the average joe or jane doesn't want a big computer in their TV room. They want something simple, plug and play, that will make this happen.

Exciting times, can't wait to see how they pull it off.

-alywa

[Yvan256]

Renting music? Doesn't make any sense except for those who like to hear hundreds of new songs every month. The "old business style" has been to sell music (Vinyls, Cassettes, CDs).

Buying TV shows and movies? Not nearly as interesting. The "old business style" has been through theatres and cable/satellite (pay once/monthly fee, watch once - reruns aside).

As long as the movies are the same resolution as DVDs (say, 720x384) and widescreen, I'd be interested (especially for 15$CAN/month).

I'd also be intersted to pay a monthly fee for TV shows, so I can ditch my digital cable (which costs way too much). If we can pay a fixed fee for unlimited shows, then there's no question I'd do it, even at the current resolution. That would mean unlimited TV shows and movies for about half the price of my cable + 2 DVD movies rental. It's a no-brainer decision, money-wise.

Another thing: the movies (and TV shows, if applicable) better be widescreen. As for the High-Definition stuff, I'd rather have an option. I don't own a plasma or projection TV. It's a 36" CRT, so I'd rather download a DVD resolution movie at 1-2GB rather than a 6-8GB download that won't be of any use to me.

And as far as any P2P/Torrent scheme is concerned, they need to allow download only (no upload). I'm on DSL and the upload speed is locked far below my download speed. I'm not sure but I might even have a monthly cap for the upload stream.

As long as my internet provider doesn't start charging per GiB, I'd sign up for such a monthly service for both TV and movies. :cool:

[...]Of course, it will have to be PC and mac compatible, and will have to have a streaming video / wifi type set-top box. There is no way they would release this and simply have it work only with front-row equipped macs, plus the average joe or jane doesn't want a big computer in their TV room. They want something simple, plug and play, that will make this happen.[...]

I guess they introduced that box a few days ago. It's called the Intel Mac mini. ;)

So much for the Mac mini being a "switcher box" only. That makes much more sense for the SPDIF/5.1, Gigabit Ethernet and GMA950 now.

[alywa]

I'd also be intersted to pay a monthly fee for TV shows, so I can ditch my digital cable (which costs way too much). If we can pay a fixed fee for unlimited shows, then there's no question I'd do it, even at the current resolution. That would mean unlimited TV shows and movies for about half the price of my cable + 2 DVD movies rental. It's a no-brainer decision, money-wise.

I'd love this too... I just don't think we're going to see it. Cable companies and the networks simply make too much money and have way to much clout (both politically and from a content standpoint) to allow this. Plus, I don't think many people would be able to completely move away from cable due to live events (news, sports, political debates, etc).

Someday, as bandwidth increases, a la carte IPTV with a solution like the proposed movie store we're discussing, could definately (and probably will) replace standard cable.

-alywa

[ncoffey]

What would do it for me is the hard to find foreign and small release films being available. I'd probably go for that as long as the DRM wasn't too bad. If I could only watch it on my computer and couldn't backup individual movies to DVDs (even in an encrypted form that couldn't be played on a DVD player) then I probably wouldn't bother with it. Without those titles though I wouldn't be interested. I don't think I'd go for a subscription model either unless it was really cheap.

[Yvan256]

I'd love this too... I just don't think we're going to see it. Cable companies and the networks simply make too much money and have way to much clout (both politically and from a content standpoint) to allow this.

Don't forget, Disney owns a LOT of channels and networks. That's a lot of power right there.

As for the other channels/networks, I'm not talking about exclusive deals. They shouldn't care wether they get paid by cable, satellite or internet companies for their shows. In the end it's all the same cash.

Plus, I don't think many people would be able to completely move away from cable due to live events (news, sports, political debates, etc).[...]

I don't see an on-line service completely replacing regular cable/satellite (yet), but I see it replacing specialized channels (Sci-Fi, Space, Discovery) and DVD rental (brick and mortar and on-line/postal DVD rental). People would simply drop their cable/satellite to the "basic service" and use internet for all the "good stuff". I don't know how it works everywhere, but Cogeco here only has specialized channels in "packages". Each package costs about 7$CAN and includes 5-6 channels. But if you only want 3 channels and they're in 3 different packages, you end up paying 21$CAN for those 3 channels. Not good for the user. :mad:

[dmcxii]

Am I the only one old enough to remember buy 12 (music) cassetes for a penny through some company? Ever try to sell those cassetes back to a used record place? The companies are known and they mark the cassetes so that a used record shop owner will not pay $5 but maybe more like a nickel.

Why not allow iTunes the ability to download DVD quality movies but the VHS version... meaning not all the extra features? or has anyone seen a pre-release movie with the banner at the bottom? how about a little transparent apple in the bottom corner?

Finally, How long would it take to download 4gB on a broadband connection?

[alywa]

Finally, How long would it take to download 4gB on a broadband connection?

I don't think we're talking 4GB. I think more like 1-1.5 GB. We're going to see mp4 - h.264 encoding... much more efficient than the MPEG-2 used on DVDs.

I figure it will take around 30 minutes for most people to download... that's why they will use the "queue" concept... you pick the ones you want, and have like 5 or so at any given time... downloaded in advance (at night, etc). Plus, you'll be able to pick one you want, and in the time it used to take to drive to blockbuster, get the movie, wait in line, etc.. you'll have the one you want even if it wasn't in your original queue.

-alywa

[BoyBach]

What would do it for me is the hard to find foreign and small release films being available.

I agree. An iTunes movie store (doesn't sound right, does it?) would be an ideal home for small independents and documentary makers with its lower costs and ITMS's potentially global market reach.

[FarleyHudson]

A $10 subscription would be a great deal considering how much you have to pay for digital cable/ on demand.

I have an HD tv set but don't expect 1080p from a download service. I would be 100% satisfied with:

- unlimited download
- 480p widescreen
- 5.1 audio
- independent content, shorts, docs, educational programing, art, design, horror, comedy, foreign, classics, etc.

I really just want to be able to brows movies and shows like iTunes Music Store and watch what I want. Like tv but with 100% customized programing.

[wkhahn]

no you can't... i mean you can, but you're breaking the law by doing it. the backup copy isn't illegal, but the copy software breaks macrovision encryption which is a violation of the DMCA and punishable by time in prison and fines.

there is no way in hell that apple will allow users to burn playable copies of any downloaded video content to disc.

Aplle already has the right to legally decrypt DVD's; Its called DVD Player.

Also, if Apple did a subscription/purchase service for movies they would have to let you burn to DVD. Imagine that you can have three "rented" movies on your subnetwork at any one time. The right to those files do not allow moving from the disk where they reside. However, if you decide to purchase one of those movies, your rights would be extended to allow 1 burn and 1 move. Of course, the movies would have to be in a higher quality format than ITMS curently allows.

[Diatribe]

Not under 480p.
Most likely for 720p.
Definitely for 1080i.

[dashiel]

Aplle already has the right to legally decrypt DVD's; Its called DVD Player.

but only for playback. look at all the hoops you have to jump through just to get a screen shot of a DVD in apple's DVD player.

CSS is the encryption on a DVD. The DMCA prevents you from breaking it or distributing software that breaks it. But the DMCA only affects US citizens. Don't forget that MacRumors is an international forum. It may well be legal in the country laidbackliam lives in.

my mistake on the css/macrovision. it was late. actually the DMCA affects anyone *in* the united states regardless of nationality as dimitry sklyarov found out, but you're right laidbackliam might be in another country.

--

media companies are increasingly looking for ways to prevent consumers from creating backups. this isn't going to reverse course any time soon. we can belabor the details until we're blue in the face, but i think the reality is apple will never be allowed to offer the consumer the ability to burn a playable back up version.

and really with a service like this, that will be tied heavily to iTMS and iPod why would you need a playable disc version? playback will occur through front row. sharing with friends/family will happen when you take your ipod over to their house.

i actually think it's quite a good solution in terms of fair use while limiting the ability to pirate. of course i think that because i have a video capable ipod :) jumping in early as i did i suspect i'll be the bottom rung of capable players when/if the video service comes out. but as with all things apple (lately) i suspect this is an effort to sell more ipods.

[JZ Wire]

Im a die hard Netflix fan/member but if Apple came out with a dl service for movies i would definitely be one of the first to sign up. However, id like to see several features worked in at its inception, like, being able to burn the movie even if it is just once so that i can at least own a hard copy of the movie. Also, that the quality of the movie is quite good. Maybe not HD but DvD quality should be standard. All that, and, as long as i can watch it whenever i want and as much as i want ..well...lets just say that Netflix had a good run.

[Cooknn]

Most likely for 720p.I believe all of ABC's stuff is at 720p, so I would guess it's likely that Apple would go that route if they offer Hi-Def. The Hi-Def trailer for Batman Begins (http://www.apple.com/quicktime/guide/hd/batmanbegins.html) is at 720p and is 115MB for 2:24 encoded with H.264. The run time for the entire movie is 140 minutes which would put the total movie size at 6.7GB. It's a lot, but my 8Mbit Comcast connection could make quick work of that, barring any issues on the server end. Last night I had a heck of a time just downloading the latest Audioslave CD off of iTunes, so I'm not so confident in their ability to deliver that kind of bandwidth - at least not in their current state. Maybe there will be some huge pipes going into that new data center ;)

[Diatribe]

I believe all of ABC's stuff is at 720p, so I would guess it's likely that Apple would go that route if they offer Hi-Def. The Hi-Def trailer for Batman Begins (http://www.apple.com/quicktime/guide/hd/batmanbegins.html) is at 720p and is 115MB for 2:24 encoded with H.264. The run time for the entire movie is 140 minutes which would put the total movie size at 6.7GB. It's a lot, but my 8Mbit Comcast connection could make quick work of that, barring any issues on the server end. Last night I had a heck of a time just downloading the latest Audioslave CD off of iTunes, so I'm not so confident in their ability to deliver that kind of bandwidth - at least not in their current state. Maybe there will be some huge pipes going into that new data center ;)

Yeah, I was going to say, that wit their new data center that might be a possibility. I just doubt Apple would offer anything over 2GB so that would leave us with 480 or lower. :(
The problem is that America is the target market and broadband just sucks there. Now if they had the kind of speeds they have in Japan (100 up/down) that would be enough for hi-def content. Especially considering that that costs them $50 a month.

[carfac]

Why are so many people concerned with DVD/480p video- "High Quality" for movies, but willing to settle for medium quality music? I will not do iTunes ever becasue (IMHO) 99 cents is WAY too much for a relitively poor quality, copy-crippled piece of music.

Based on what iTunes does to music, I doubt you would get much in terms of quality for video, either. Certianly not what I would consider acceptible, and probably not at what I would consider a good price (not that the pricing is Apples fault at all- that is the fault of greedy record and movie producers). ANd the idea of real HD for full movies... I think you are smoking something wakky if you think that is possible!

dave

[Diatribe]

Why are so many people concerned with DVD/480p video- "High Quality" for movies, but willing to settle for medium quality music? I will not do iTunes ever becasue (IMHO) 99 cents is WAY too much for a relitively poor quality, copy-crippled piece of music.
...

dave

No one ever said that. I for one don't buy music from iTunes for the very same reason.
Now if they were to offer Lossless music with artwork and lyrics, I'd never buy another CD.

[amateurmacfreak]

- What is the resolution? Widesrceen? If so, how would one watch them on their iPod (unless a new one is coming out! :eek: ;))

I watch widescreen a lot on my iPod. It's just small. :) W/ a lot of pixels obviously not filled.

[ddrueckhammer]

I have posted numerous posts saying that this should be part of Apple's strategy so I'm all for it. I would even pay a little more than Netflix for the convenience factor. Blockbuster (in my area) charges $4 for a new rental and Netflix typically ranges from $10-$18 per month depending on how many you have out. I think that $15/month might be a happy median as it is just under $2 per rental if you rented 2 per week. Apple will have added costs of bandwidth and will have to invest in a new server farm. The question is whether these costs are more or less than Netflix's postage costs and warehousing costs? Also, will the MPAA and studios give Apple content to sell. I'm sure all Disney and Viacom properties will (thanks Steve) but will the rest?

In order to succeed I think an iTunes Movie/Media Store will need:

1. Higher Quality Content (640x480 minimum, 800x600 would be better)
2. Competitive pricing (Under $20/month or $3 per rental)
3. A separate app and online store for video content (iTunes and the ITMS is already getting cluttered)
4. A flexible DRM that doesn't tie content only to the computer. (I can play a DVD anywhere why would I want to play downloaded movies only on 1 machine, this may be OK if the content is for rental only though)

Hopefully Apple can deliver some or all of this and Mac Mini's will be their next hot product! They had better hurry; the CEO of Netflix has already stated this is the future and I'm sure Tivo is doing R&D on this. The first service that has many of the above features will have a distinct competitive advantage.

[Doctor Q]

In order to succeed I think an iTunes Movie/Media Store will need:

3. A separate app and online store for video content (iTunes and the ITMS is already getting cluttered)I suspect they won't take your advice on this one, at least for the store. They already get a lot of cross promotion by mixing music, music videos, and TV shows. It would be the same for movies: "Like the movie? Get the soundtrack!"

[geiger167]

And if the complete lack of series downloads is anything to go by in the UK we can look forward to old Carry On films and a few episodes of Rumpolde of the Bailey lol. And dont get me started on region coding.
However the file size of high-def content could be a problem as a 5 gig download on my 10 meg line takes about a hour and twenty minutes at full speed so I would presume they would use 480p movie files innitially :(

[ddrueckhammer]

I suspect they won't take your advice on this one, at least for the store. They already get a lot of cross promotion by mixing music, music videos, and TV shows. It would be the same for movies: "Like the movie? Get the soundtrack!"

While I think you may be right, I hope that Apple's design team will remember their roots and put ease of use and UI first.

Also, to respond to the DVD burning posts, I think that if Microsoft is able to put DRM burning into Vista, then Apple will add it to Leopard and this service.

[carfac]

No one ever said that. I for one don't buy music from iTunes for the very same reason.
Now if they were to offer Lossless music with artwork and lyrics, I'd never buy another CD.

Sorry- I think I mis-wrote, but you understood my intent... I meant to use iTunes as it currently IS as an example for what to expect in iMoves. Based on copy-crippled, low-rez music (that we both agree is not worth buying), I think we can expect similar in iMovies- copy-crippled AND low-rez. (BTW, I agree- I would pay 99 cents for Apple Lossless, even with copy protection... but no way for 128 kbit)

I DO NOT BLAME APPLE for this- their hands are tied by what MPAA and RIAA let them do. They prove themeselves to be greedy beyond belief, over and over. They will not allow this unless the protection schemes are totally locked down (not that someone in Sweden won't break that in 2 weeks :) )

But I also think you are being a bit optimistic in costs- Apple get's pennies... someone else is going to set a pretty high base price that Apple will have to work with.

Just my 2 cents.

dave

[Diatribe]

Sorry- I think I mis-wrote, but you understood my intent... I meant to use iTunes as it currently IS as an example for what to expect in iMoves. Based on copy-crippled, low-rez music (that we both agree is not worth buying), I think we can expect similar in iMovies- copy-crippled AND low-rez. (BTW, I agree- I would pay 99 cents for Apple Lossless, even with copy protection... but no way for 128 kbit)

I DO NOT BLAME APPLE for this- their hands are tied by what MPAA and RIAA let them do. They prove themeselves to be greedy beyond belief, over and over. They will not allow this unless the protection schemes are totally locked down (not that someone in Sweden won't break that in 2 weeks :) )

But I also think you are being a bit optimistic in costs- Apple get's pennies... someone else is going to set a pretty high base price that Apple will have to work with.

Just my 2 cents.

dave

Unfortunately you are right. We can expect the same in movie downloads, which sucks. I fear that we might come to the point in the future where there will only be compressed, DRMed songs to buy and no CDs anymore. If the record labels could they probably would.

[Cooknn]

Unfortunately you are right. We can expect the same in movie downloads, which sucks.IMHO if Apple doesn't lead, they will lose in the movie arena. Netflix is surely positioned to offer HD-DVD or Blu-Ray movie rentals as soon as they become mainstream. Apple has always played the Hi-Def card whenever they get the chance. It will be a big mistake if they don't offer movie downloads with H.264 in at least 720p. Truthfully though, I don't care if I get them from Apple or Netflix. The karma would surely be better with an iTunes interface though :p

OT: As I write this I am totally amazed at how iTunes mixes my songs randomly night after night with some sort of theme. It's freaking scary sometimes...

[carfac]

>>> IMHO if Apple doesn't lead, they will lose in the movie arena

Unfortunately, it is not Apple's choice. Apple does the best it can (I am sure), with what RAII and MPAA will allow.

As many of you are aware, the MPAA (or is it RAII?) is now pushing the notion that if you buy a CD, you do NOT have the right to burn it to HD or transfer to iPod. As I see it, they are trying to make us buy a new verion for each use- a CD for use in a CD player, a DRM version for iPod, etc. The direction I see them headed is to make us pay and pay and pay.

Why do no online resources allow d/ling purchased music at greater than 128kbsec? Sure, bandwidth is a concern... but I am sure there are enough people like DIATRIBE and myself that want higher bitsrates, and would pay for it. So why is it not available- because the record companies will not liscence it.

I think the best we can expect from MPAA on movie d/ls is DVD res... and I think that is probably not likely. :mad:

[shamino]

As many of you are aware, the MPAA (or is it RAII?) is now pushing the notion that if you buy a CD, you do NOT have the right to burn it to HD or transfer to iPod. As I see it, they are trying to make us buy a new version for each use- a CD for use in a CD player, a DRM version for iPod, etc. The direction I see them headed is to make us pay and pay and pay.
Let's not confuse the law with RIAA press releases with what they'd ultimately desire.

Under the law, ordinary people can make copies of phonorecords (which audio CDs qualify as) under two circumstances:

Using a device that complies with the Audio Home Recording Act. This is pretty much any device that supports SCMS copy protection. (You can make a copy form an original, but can not make a copy from a copy.)
For "fair use". Fair use has a fuzzy legal definition. US copyright law mentions a few cases (like excerpts for educational, review, criticism or parody purposes). Making a backup copy, custom mix discs, loading into computers/iPods, is a gray area.
Software (which CDs do not qualify as, but music on other media might) allows duplication for two more reasons:

For installation purposes
For backup purposes
Many lawyers understand "fair use" in a way that includes almost anything you do with the music, as long as it's non-commercial and doesn't result in another person possessing a copy. This would allow rip/mix/burn, iPod loading, streaming over a LAN, etc.

The RIAA (and other lawyers) have a much stricter definition of fair use that only permits those reasons explicitly stated in the copyright law. According to them, the uses I mentioned in the previous paragraph are only permitted because the RIAA has made a decision to not attempt prosecution, not because of any legal guarantee.

As for what the RIAA would want, keep in mind that their PR people (including their web site) say that you can rip/mix/burn, load iPods, etc. In other words, there is no disagreement about what you are allowed to do - they are only disagreeing about where that permission comes from. While this is a concern, it's not nearly as dire as some would have you believe.
Why do no online resources allow d/ling purchased music at greater than 128kbsec? Sure, bandwidth is a concern... but I am sure there are enough people like DIATRIBE and myself that want higher bitsrates, and would pay for it. So why is it not available- because the record companies will not liscence it.
You don't know that, unless you're privy to contracts.

You may believe that there's a big conspiracy-based reason. It may also be a simple business decision.

128Kbps is about 10:1 compression. That allows a lot of music to be stored on a server. Higher bit-rates consume more space, and require more download bandwidth.

Companies have to consider the storage costs of alternate formats (which are incurred whether or not there are any purchases) and the bandwidth costs (which are only incurred when purchases are made.) These all have to be passed on to the customer. If the tracks end up 10x larger (for uncompressed audio) or 5x larger (for Apple Lossless format), those costs will be substantial.

You may be willing to pay extra for this, but how much more? $2/song? $5/song? $8/song? As the price goes up, customers are turned away, forcing the price to go even higher (since the storage costs for the songs is unaffected by customer demand.)

Given the fact that CDs cost $8-18 in stores, per-song download prices can't rise too much before people abandon the service. Any company that wants to offer music downloads must take this into consideration.
I think the best we can expect from MPAA on movie d/ls is DVD res... and I think that is probably not likely. :mad:
Movies have an even worse problem - huge file sizes.

A DVD typically holds 5-10GB of content. Even if you strip out the bonus features, you're still probably looking at 4-7GB. Assuming an H.264 version can get an additional 50% compression, you're still looking at 2-3.5GB.

Even with a 10Mbps broadband connection (and a server that can keep up), you're talking about 30-45 minutes for the download. For a DSL line (1.5Mbps), you're looking at 3-5 hours download. Even if this is acceptable to you, I don't think most people would agree. And it's unlikely that any download service is going to pump out that much data without charging a lot for it - quite possibly as much as the cost of a DVD.

Which means you're looking at higher compression and lower resolutions, regardless of what the copyright holders may or may not want to allow.

Don't go jumping to conspiracy theories when there are much simpler logical explanation at hand.

[Doctor Q]

Excellent post, shamino. Thanks for providing this analysis and a word to the wise not to jump to conclusions too quickly.