Mac/PC gaming death coming to a future near us?

[Haoshiro]

Recent rumblings regarding publishers/developers (like John Carmack, id Software) switching to consoles (360/PS3) as the primary development platform leave me wondering... could "computer gaming" (PC or Mac) as we know it come to an end?

Even Aspyr is getting lured to Xbox.

I've been casually thinking the idea over and thought I'd share my observations/thoughts and see what everyone else thought.

First, the Hardware:

PCs/Macs have the edge over consoles in that upgrades happen at least yearly many of which directly effect games. Faster processors, video cards, the pending release of physics cards.

That hardcore computer gamers help these hardware companies make money off these upgrades.

But is this always a good thing in the eyes of publisher and developers or more of a headache?

As a developer myself (not games, atm) I feel its a double-edged sword. I definitely like the advancements being made and more power can definitely equal more possibilities. On that same end it also makes development a bit shaky in that your platform is changing. Take the MacOS 9 developer that gets blindsided by Intel OS X that doesn't even support Classic.

Game developers have the most to worry about. You can't directly take advantage of every new feature of the latest hardware without shutting out the majority of users who DONT have the latest hardware. You have to take a shot in the dark, guess where the majority will be in the 2 or 3 years it will take you to finish. Then hope you don't get left in the dust by things moving faster then you thought so you now have a game that looks "so last year." At the same time, again, you want to make sure people now can enjoy your game.

Consoles are much more stable. The hardware is fixed, which already means less development time. This also increases the amount of your work you can keep for subsequent projects. You can take advantage of EVERY single feature the system has to offer and not worry about alienating anyone.

It's also easier for people to buy into your game, meaning, its cheaper for people to obtain the hardware they need for your game. The latest video card, upgrade for memory, and cpu can be expensive, much more then $200-400 for a new console system.

You can even garauntee the experience... and much less support because you don't have to worry about the myriad of hardware options out there.

Now of course, computer gaming tech is improving and will continue to do so - but much of this still holds true regardless.

Hardware manufacturers can benefit as well, since their hardware will, largely, always be used in every system. Small hardware monopolies you could say, every single Xbox 360 has an ATI GPU - no competition.

second, Software

A lot of the aspects was talked about already. Consoles offer a fixed platform, easier to support, more reusable work.

They also have another Huge advantage - Piracy. Piracy still happens on consoles but it is much less of an issue, often involving some technical prowess such as hardware modding of the console, etc. Sure it happens, but it is just not near as common. Would it be if consoles were the only source of gaming? More so, sure, but I doubt it would be at the level that computer piracy is at. One good reason is that the hardware is controlled, whereas in computers anyone can buy from any manufacturer (at least on the PC side).

Finally...

Some other benefits are Controls, Online benefits (harder to cheat in online games, matchmaking is becoming integral as seen in the Xbox 360), and Profit.

Console games usually hold there value very well compared to PC gaming with games holding retail value for very very long times. When they are marked down, they at least commonly go down to only $19.99.

Also consider shelf space, if Console games were the primary market then they would get more shelf space - giving more room for the more profitable console games.

Thoughts?

So what do you think? Will PC/Mac gaming become secondary to publishers and developers? Will they switch focus to console systems and services like the online distribution of Xbox Live! Arcade?

Will the PC game market become like the Mac game market? Consisting of mostly ports and indie/shareware games?

If it does, will this be advantageous to the Mac platform? If gaming is no longer a primary focus for PCs, then why run Windows when you can have a more productive platform like OS X?

~ Hao

[bighairydoofus]

Gaming is not the primary focus of most PC's. Even if you discount business computers, most home computers don't have games as their primary focus. Many do, but most do not (most are actually dust collectors, but that's another issue).

That being said, there seems to be no lack of people willing to plunk down five hundred bucks for a bleeding edge video card. For that reason alone, PC gaming will survive, if not thrive. I think the PC gaming market is slow due to a lack of innovative and interesting games more than anything else.

[Haoshiro]

I think you are missing the point here. PCs are where a massive chunk of the gaming industry focuses. PC games often get ported to consoles, but in general the majority of game titles begin life on the PC.

[takao]

whenever a new generation of consoles comes out this discussion comes up again

let's face it within 1,5 years it will be an old discussion again with the next generation of GFX cards on the horizon

[Haoshiro]

I won't disagree about the reoccurence of the topic. Yet I don't think that invalidates the subject or possibility.

As the years pass we come closer and closer to media convergence, TV on Monitors, PCs on TVs, TV Monitors, etc.

This is the first generation that has pushed PC resolutions while also existing primarily of PC components. Systems like the Xbox 360 and pending PS3 that not only network, but also can hook directly to computer monitors, and include USB ports.

Sure, the Dreamcast could go online (even SNES and an online service in Japan at one time), and also had an official VGA box - though compatibility was spotty.

Oh, and Microsoft entered the game...

[Airforce]

whenever a new generation of consoles comes out this discussion comes up again

I'm newer around here, but it happens on other forums as well. Personally, I don't think it will ever happen. There are things that consoles just aren't good at, including first person shooters. It of course is my opinion, but I hate first person shooters on consoles. Give me a mouse and keyboard any day of the year. Also, the xbox 360 can't touch the top end specs of my 7800GT :cool:

[takao]

oh and when you put the cost of those HDTVs into the calculation then the costs of a gaming PC stop being an argument ;)
( and for developers: you will need special hardware, more expensive dev kits etc. that's why smaller developers are still big on the PC side)

[Compatiblepoker]

I'm newer around here, but it happens on other forums as well. Personally, I don't think it will ever happen. There are things that consoles just aren't good at, including first person shooters. It of course is my opinion, but I hate first person shooters on conoles. Give me a mouse and keyboard any day of the year. Also, the xbox 360 can't touch the top end specs of my 7800GT :cool:

I agree. I dont think PC games are going anywhere. Some older people feel more sophisticated playing on a PC than a video game which may make them feel childish. Not that its childish but thats the way it might make them feel.

Roger

[Dagless]

The way I see it, whenever I walk into a game shop theres a huge wall full of PC games. None interest me as there are so many. It's the needle in the haystack scenario. There are too many WW2 shooters, too many of the same game over and over.

the PC/Mac needs a Metroid or Zelda. It's own franchise thats PC only, that is addictive as hell and will re-light the fire of PC gaming.

It's the route consoles are starting to go down too. I was playing some golf game on my mates 360 yesterday. Whilst the wireless controller was snazzy and that, I couldn't help feeling that this is just a PC dedicated to gaming.

In my world...

PC= soulless, mechanical, systematic gaming
(Japanese) Consoles= spirited, has love.

[Dagless]

oh and when you put the cost of those HDTVs into the calculation then the costs of a gaming PC stop being an argument ;)
( and for developers: you will need special hardware, more expensive dev kits etc. that's why smaller developers are still big on the PC side)

Very good point. Console gaming was good value when it was all 480i in the good old 90's, but now (in the UK at least) seeing that only consoles are HDTV's only use then it does look a little bad.

[GFLPraxis]

Some other benefits are Controls,

I don't view this as a benefit at all.

Joysticks are far superior for platformers, but the advantage ends there. The keyboard and mouse combo are far superior for:

(A) FPS (mouse = perfect control)
(B) RTS (usually can't even be played with joysticks, at least not in the traditional way)
(C) god games and stuff like Spore and The Movies
(D) Adventure games
(E) MMOs, you can assign hotkeys to various tasks and type instead of having to hear annoying voices.

[OnceUGoMac]

I heard this from a friend that works at Gamestop. He was told that most of the major studios will stop developing for personal computers and focus on the consoles. However, I don't think it'll happen.

[Airforce]

I heard this from a friend that works at Gamestop. He was told that most of the major studios will stop developing for personal computers and focus on the consoles. However, I don't think it'll happen.

A friend that works at Gamestop....Bro, he has about as much info as me on the subject ;)

[Counterfit]

the PC/Mac needs a Metroid or Zelda. It's own franchise thats PC only, that is addictive as hell and will re-light the fire of PC gaming.
Like Marathon! :D




Oh, wait... :o

[Anarchy99]

They also have another Huge advantage - Piracy. Piracy still happens on consoles but it is much less of an issue, often involving some technical prowess such as hardware modding of the console, etc. Sure it happens, but it is just not near as common.
yeah right thats far from the truth
with some of the latest games on pc not being able to be cracked(as of yet) and the fact that its easy to got online and buy a premodded xbox,ps2,GC under warranty
and more and more trust online shopping
its way easier to pirate for a console spend time once dont and you dont have to do it again
where pcs its apply a crack, or use alcohol for some things and its getting harder and harder to find a work around
heck look at the xbox a 5 min softmod and your good so its even easier
eventually the 360 will be cracked along with the rest

but anyway pc gaming wont die they make to much money to and the public outcry would be to much of a burden to the industry
plus keyboard and mouse is superior for most styles of game
and the companies like M$ have a stick up there ass and wont let keyboard and mouse be a optional standard control scheme
it wouldnt be hard to emulate controller to keyboard mouse in software if the console was built to do it

[Marathon4ever]

the person who started this thread is not very knowledgeable. I already posted about this nonsense.

Computer gaming is not going anywhere. It's quite different from console gaming, IE it's not nearly as good.

You cannot play an FPS on a console. PERIOD!!! no commas, no dots, no freaking semi-colons or any other dumb crap like that.

Computer gaming is differnent from console gaming. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE TWO DIFFERENT MARKETS for those games.

Don not listen to the idiots talking about the end of computer games. They have no idea what they are talking about. In fact, they are probably just trying to cause a commotion to draw readers.

ok, I'm done for now.

[Marathon4ever]

Um, piracy is very easy on the PS and Xbox if you get a mod chip. I would say piracy on consoles is not too far behind computers.

[Marathon4ever]

Like Marathon! :D




Oh, wait... :o
YEAH!!! Marathon, woooo

[GFLPraxis]

I heard this from a friend that works at Gamestop. He was told that most of the major studios will stop developing for personal computers and focus on the consoles. However, I don't think it'll happen.

Dude, I worked at GameStop until this last quarter of college started (drowning workload, plus I was a temp).

Trust me, neither I nor my workmates knew what the major studios were doing.

[illegalprelude]

the person who started this thread is not very knowledgeable. I already posted about this nonsense.

Computer gaming is not going anywhere. It's quite different from console gaming, IE it's not nearly as good.

You cannot play an FPS on a console. PERIOD!!! no commas, no dots, no freaking semi-colons or any other dumb crap like that.

Computer gaming is differnent from console gaming. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE TWO DIFFERENT MARKETS for those games.

Don not listen to the idiots talking about the end of computer games. They have no idea what they are talking about. In fact, they are probably just trying to cause a commotion to draw readers.

ok, I'm done for now.
Idiots? Being a tad childish are we not? Its a meer discussion. No need to get pissed off. kids :rolleyes:

anyways, I do agree with the topic creator in some ways. I dont think we will see the end of PC games but as u can tell, PC games used to be the only thing but its slowing down, more and more.

To the person with the FPS comment, your right. PC has FPS...alot of it...to much of it. but PC = FPS, RTS and MMORPG but what about all the other casual gamers?

Where is the Final Fantasy, the Metal Gear Solid, the Fifa World Cup, the Grand Turismo and the King Kong? No where to be found. (before you say u dont know about PC gaming, bla bla bla, read my sig and my PC stats, its a built gaming machine that will blow urs out of the water, more then likely :D )

but I only play my PC for RTS and Unreal and I dont always play those.

[Airforce]

Where is the Final Fantasy, the Metal Gear Solid, the Fifa World Cup, the Grand Turismo and the King Kong? No where to be found. (before you say u dont know about PC gaming, bla bla bla, read my sig and my PC stats, its a built gaming machine that will blow urs out of the water, more then likely :D )

but I only play my PC for RTS and Unreal and I dont always play those.

Final Fantasy, Fifa, and King Kong are on the PC....

Just because you own a gaming machine apparently doesn't equate to you knowing what games are out :p

[takao]

and for racing games: there are plenty on the PC .. sure GT is really good but GT legends was pretty awesome when i tried it out

what were the best sellers on amazon for PC games for christmas ? Civ 4 and age of empires 3

[MacRumorUser]

I actually think there is some truth to it. i'm not talking mac at the moment as the mac gaming community makes a negligable impact on the gmaing sales anyway...


While I despise Apple's decision to use Integrated graphics, this year I have bought 8 pc's for people near me, all of which - bar one, had integrated graphics. These were people using their pc for word, email & surfing... some had familys who said they already had gamesconsoles so a decent graphics card was less important to them than the cheapness.

It seem's that most people buying pc's these days are buying more and more machines based on cost rather than hardware. Most of these machines are going to be unable to play anything other than minesweeepr.

You try and convince average joe to spend 300 quid on a decent graphics card so that junior can play doom 3 and I know what the response would be....

PC games sales have fallen with each consecutive year and I imagine with PS3 & Rev out this year, the next two years will see a further decline. With the consoles picking up the slack.

Even games that a few years ago were considered only suitable for PC are now getting console release. The new RTS lord of the rings game will debut on 360 as well as PC.

This shift by developers & publishers point to an inevitable end.

There will always be avid gamers on PC who are more than willing to blow a couple of grand on a killer gaming rig, but these are in the 'minority' of people.

As pc prices fall and the dominance of value over hardware content continues to drive PC sales, the gaming will be sidelined.......

Nvidia & ATI will sell more top of the line graphics cards to Microsoft & Sony (for consoles) than they will to OEM PC makers or retailers.....

[eva01]

You cannot play an FPS on a console. PERIOD!!! no commas, no dots, no freaking semi-colons or any other dumb crap like that.

Hmm i know i love Metroid Prime on my Gamecube and that happens to be an FPS and my gamecube doesn't come up with a warning saying "You cannot play FPS on a console" maybe yours is broken :P

And i know i can't wait for Metroid Prime on the Rev be better than any other FPS I have played.

And thus far my favorite FPS have been whilst playing Console (Battlefront II, Sniper Elite, Metroid Prime)

[takao]

Even games that a few years ago were considered only suitable for PC are now getting console release. The new RTS lord of the rings game will debut on 360 as well as PC.


well then they have to speed up the porting since it's already out for the PC since yesterday (without europe getting a delay ;) )

and there have been strategy games on consoles before.. with rather small success: wasn't there starcraft and command & conquer on the N64 ? civ 2 and PS1 ?

unless a console maker comes out with a fully supported mouse+ keyboard add on no one will take them serious.. if they do then i start thinking about it

[Josh]

I think console games and PC game each have their own niche and market of players.

I love PC games, but I'm not such a fan of console games. From time to time they are fun, but I find them to be limited and stagnant.

Take World of Warcraft (WoW) for example.

The game is so emmense, with so many upgrades, new features, quests. The game is actually a living game. It is constantly evolving, new things being added and adjusted all the time. WoW today has grown so much from the first version they released. It's grown a lot even from when I just bought it a few months ago.

You don't get that with console games. They are fixed and are the same 100 years from the day you bought it.

Another thing about WoW I like is the complexity of the game. There are so many controls, and such a unique interface that it would be impossible to play such a game on a console (unless it had a keyboard attatchment).

One great thing about the uniqueness of the interface is that there is a large focus on community development. You can create, customize, and alter the interface of the game in any way you like, if you know Lua programming.

You can then share those enhancements and mods with everyone else.

Can't happen with console games.

Lastly, the experience is completely different. I browse the web, chat with friends on AIM, listen to iTunes, and play WoW all at once, switching windows all the time.

That kind of flexability and experience is not easily available from a console.

Computers are practical gaming investments. When you buy a PC (win or Mac), you've got the gaming machine plus so much more, including: web/email, pictures, videos - anything you want to do.

I can't develop software on a console, or work on my photography.

Consoles have their purpose which is different than the purpoce of a PC gaming machine. The two are so different, filling such different needs, that I don't think one could ever replace the other. There's always got to be room for both.

[Dagless]

You cannot play an FPS on a console. PERIOD!!! no commas, no dots, no freaking semi-colons or any other dumb crap like that.

What about the DS? Minus a few button issues I find it to be superior to the mouse/keyboard setup.
The Revolution? virtual gun.

It's just dual analogues that are not made for FPS games... or rather they tried but didn't get anywhere.

but yea.
PC= brilliant aiming, too many keys, can hold down 10 buttons at once (in theory).
Dual analogue= painful aiming, perfect number of buttons, can hold down 4 buttons at once.

[cubist]

There are indeed two markets for games, PC and console (including handheld). The console segment is huge and growing; the PC segment is small and shrinking. Those are the facts. Sure, the PC segment will never shrink to anywhere near zero. But if you were a publisher, would you target a market where a top game sells around 100K units, or one where a top game sells 25M+ units? Sure, WoW is great, but GTA:SA outsold it by more than a hundred to one.

[Mr. Mister]

PC gaming is going to be around for a while.

[takao]

There are indeed two markets for games, PC and console (including handheld). The console segment is huge and growing; the PC segment is small and shrinking. Those are the facts. Sure, the PC segment will never shrink to anywhere near zero. But if you were a publisher, would you target a market where a top game sells around 100K units, or one where a top game sells 25M+ units? Sure, WoW is great, but GTA:SA outsold it by more than a hundred to one.

hmm let's see WOW has 5 million subscribers (perhaps even 6 million already) and growing.. each of them pays 11-15 bucks each month
and that's not bad for a mmporg

top games selling around 100k is just plain wrong..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best_selling_computer_and_video_games

and PC games sales are incredibly hard to track

and shelf space is still larger for PC games where i live .. and yeah that's when i compare all console shelves combined including their hardware accessory shelves

[Tailpike1153]

GTA:SA may have outsold WOW. But how much is Blizzard raking in a month in subscription fees? Millions. Developers aren't going to stop creating for their cashcow market. If I'm not mistaken GTA:SA started life on the pc before getting ported. The biggest problem will be, are developers working on titles that will make a lot of people want to buy in huge numbers? Sofar for the next-gens...No. Give the masses good games and they will buy for a pc, a console, a toaster with wifi, etc.

[Josh]

GTA:SA may have outsold WOW. But how much is Blizzard raking in a month in subscription fees? Millions. Developers aren't going to stop creating for their cashcow market. If I'm not mistaken GTA:SA started life on the pc before getting ported. The biggest problem will be, are developers working on titles that will make a lot of people want to buy in huge numbers? Sofar for the next-gens...No. Give the masses good games and they will buy for a pc, a console, a toaster with wifi, etc.

Exactly.

GTA:SA can sell more individual units than WoW, but in the long run, WoW is going to bring in A LOT more cash.

GTA:SA is around (I'm purely guessing) $50 for the game. That is the absolute most each customer is going to pay. A one time fee, then no more.

WoW on the other hand is around $30-45 for the game. Each customer has to pay that. BUT...it doesn't stop there. Each customer continues to pay $11-$15 per month after that.

After 1 year, a WoW customer has payed $162-$225. After one year, a GTA:SA customer has payed only $50, tops.

If you were selling games, what sounds more appealing to you...$200 a year per customer for 1 game, or $50?

[Doraemon]

the person who started this thread is not very knowledgeable. I already posted about this nonsense.

And who makes you the guru who can judge that this is nonsense?

Actually, Haoshiro's post made it quite obvious that he that made some serious thoughts about this issue - unlike you. And - while I don't agree with all of his points - it's a very legitimate discussion to have.

Because you don't agree doesn't make him an idiot or what he says "crap".

[Doraemon]

I don't view this as a benefit at all.

Joysticks are far superior for platformers, but the advantage ends there. The keyboard and mouse combo are far superior for:

(A) FPS (mouse = perfect control)
(B) RTS (usually can't even be played with joysticks, at least not in the traditional way)
(C) god games and stuff like Spore and The Movies
(D) Adventure games
(E) MMOs, you can assign hotkeys to various tasks and type instead of having to hear annoying voices.

While I agree with you, what hinders the developers to add mouse and keyboard support to the consoles/games (like they already did in past)?

[GFLPraxis]

While I agree with you, what hinders the developers to add mouse and keyboard support to the consoles/games (like they already did in past)?


Mainly because no console gamer sits at a desk, and you need a surface to put a keyboard and a mouse on.

However, the Nintendo Revolution does pose a threat to PCs in some ways. The controller can function as a mouse, which allows RTS games to be played for the first time and FPS to be played with keyboard-and-mouse levels of accuracy.

[takao]

However, the Nintendo Revolution does pose a threat to PCs in some ways. The controller can function as a mouse, which allows RTS games to be played for the first time and FPS to be played with keyboard-and-mouse levels of accuracy.

i would write that with a big fat enormous "might"/"perhaps" i wait with such comments until i play with my own hands ...

[GFLPraxis]

Yeah, and we still don't know what kind of third party support we'll get (will they port PC games?), and the PC still has the keyboard advantages for hotkeys and MMOs.

I'm hoping to play it with my own hands at E3...

[Marathon4ever]

And who makes you the guru who can judge that this is nonsense?

Actually, Haoshiro's post made it quite obvious that he that made some serious thoughts about this issue - unlike you. And - while I don't agree with all of his points - it's a very legitimate discussion to have.

Because you don't agree doesn't make him an idiot or what he says "crap".
No, it's not a legitimate discussion to have because there is no hard evidence of the end of computer gaming, and people who write about consoles taking over are just trying to stir up trouble.

And I didn't call Haoshiro an idiot, I called the people who he got his info from idiots.

[Haoshiro]

I think some of you missed some of my post, but that's okay.

I never said consoles would *replace* computers entirely, or at all.

What I am suggesting is a shift of focus, that the "big guns" (or mid-sized) of game development/publishing will move to consoles such as Xbox 360 or PS3 as their Primary development platform.

Also, I said near future, this could be the pending generation (360, PS3, Revolution) or the next next-gen systems.

These new systems, at least 360/PS3 so far, can connect to a computer monitor. You won't _need_ an HDTV since a monitor is more then capable, and can be used with your computer as well.

Let's not discount the Revolution, it has the potential to innovate many genres - especially first person games like shooters.

The fact of that matter is that more and more FPS games are coming to consoles. I'll name some that have or are coming out: Halo, Halo 2, Call of Duty, Call of Duty 2, Doom 3, Quake 4, Prey, UT2007, and Far Cry. And there are a lot more.

And Patches? When was the last time you heard of a console game that _needed_ patched? Mario never did... nor Zelda, or Halo (for Xbox).

And have any of you seen the Phantom Lapboard? Sure, the Phantom is... well... a phantom. But the idea is solid for the lapboard. A wireless Keyboard/mouse combo. Are we waiting for a console to officially support or release such a product? Doesn't mean it won't/couldn't happen.

Consider PC systems. You can build an entire system for about $300 that will do everything a non-gamer/non-professional user would need.

To turn that into a system that can perform well for gaming will cost quite a bit more.

Feel free to disagree with this if you wish, but here are some specs I think would be appropriate for general computer use (email, internet, chat, word processing, budgetting, etc.) vs gaming.

Also note that these will not include the shared items like kybd/mouse or display. I will factor in the case so each computer should be a BYODKM ala the Mac Mini. Price estimates loosely based on newegg.com


General Use:
CPU: 600MHz (come on now, we aren't running Photoshop or 3D rendering, this is generic computer use here, also you probably cant even BUY a 600MHz new, but you don't NEED more.).
HDD: 80GB (generic use, enough room for a large music library, even movies)
RAM: 256MB
Video: Integrated.
Sound: Integrated.
OS: Ubuntu Linux (or [insert flavor here])
Network: 10/100 Ethernet (Integrated)
Total: ~$200

Gaming (minimum):
CPU: 2GHz or equiv
HDD: 80GB (eh, let's keep it the same)
RAM: 1GB (yes, really... thanks to the OS)
Video: nVidia GeForce 6600 GT 128MB or equiv (this won't even let you max settings in current new games like F.E.A.R.!)
Sound: Integrated (hey, why not)
OS: Windows XP Home
Network: 10/100 Ethernet (Integrated)
Total: ~$550

Now everyone should be able to agree those are very aggressive estimates, quite low. The gaming machine will not touch even an Xbox 360. This is a poor-mans gaming PC, already outdated.

[Haoshiro]

Marathon4ever:

You should take a step back and breath. I'm not attacking your mac gaming. Read my post and you'd see I never said it was going to end entirely. The subject line did suggest the possibility but if you read the post you would know that I only suggest that it will change, not end entirely.

[DougTheImpaler]

oh and when you put the cost of those HDTVs into the calculation then the costs of a gaming PC stop being an argument ;)
( and for developers: you will need special hardware, more expensive dev kits etc. that's why smaller developers are still big on the PC side)
Only if you're constantly upgrading your HDTV like you have to a PC or a Mac to keep up with the latest games.

[takao]

The fact of that matter is that more and more FPS games are coming to consoles. I'll name some that have or are coming out: Halo, Halo 2, Call of Duty, Call of Duty 2, Doom 3, Quake 4, Prey, UT2007, and Far Cry. And there are a lot more.

and most of them except Halo came out / will come out first on the PC (yes in the case of UT2007 that got confirmed)


And Patches? When was the last time you heard of a console game that _needed_ patched? Mario never did... nor Zelda, or Halo (for Xbox).

dead or alive 4 savegame issues or how about call of duty 2 where fans are demanding a multiplayer patch ?
and afaik.. halo got patched


personally my last PC upgrade was a DVD drive since games on CD getting rare.. you don't have to invest 500 every year.. not everybody is going to buy the top of the line video card.. msot in fact buy those middle of the road cards like the 6600 GT or when i bought mine PC (or better the parts) the Ti4200
so far the only game i couldn't play was battlefield 2

[Haoshiro]

and most of them except Halo came out / will come out first on the PC (yes in the case of UT2007 that got confirmed)


Sure, I wasn't saying they didn't. The fact they are beginning to be successful on consoles shows publishers and developers that they certainly can make main-stream high profile FPS games on a console. UT2007 was on hand for the PS3 press event at E3, that's fairly big.


dead or alive 4 savegame issues or how about call of duty 2 where fans are demanding a multiplayer patch ?
and afaik.. halo got patched


The first two are 360 games, launch games at that... which usually means rushed. Also, they actually *can* be patched for those with an hdd and a live account, so its possible.

I don't recall any Halo patch unless you mean the Halo 2 multiplayer expansion... which also shows its possible.


personally my last PC upgrade was a DVD drive since games on CD getting rare.. you don't have to invest 500 every year.. not everybody is going to buy the top of the line video card.. msot in fact buy those middle of the road cards like the 6600 GT or when i bought mine PC (or better the parts) the Ti4200 so far the only game i couldn't play was battlefield 2

I definitely didn't say it would cost $500/yr. Extremely dedicated hardcore PC gamers will upgrade at every video card release, other dedicated PC gamers tend to upgrade about every 2 years in my experience (having many friends that are PC gamers).

I also know a lot of people that are more casual gamers get frusterated with their PC because when a game is released, they go get it, and have to drop settings to low or mid-to-low settings for playable speeds.

[greatdevourer]

King Kong Have you ever played King Kong? It's utter sh*te :p

[benpatient]

whereas the console version of the same game has textures 1/4 the size and half as many polys and 1/3 of the levels have been shortened or removed entirely because they are too resource heavy for the console.

Even games like GTA come out better on the PC.

Ever played Vice City on PC with at 1600x1200 with the "real cars" mod package?

Holy Crap is all I can say. Triple the texture resolutions, no draw distance limitations at all. huge resolution compared to the PS2 version, play your own MP3s through the radio system, and I even have a USB/PS2 controller adapter for my PC, so I can take advantage of games that are easier to control with a gamepad, like certain parts of GTA (flying, for example, is impossible with a KB/Mouse).

Most FPS games are crap with a controller. A "Pro" xbox Halo player would have a hard time against a mediocre PC halo player just because the PC users has such a huge advantage...

I like using a console to play stuff like Zelda or Mario or racing games, but the truth is, I am frustrated by the limitations of console racing games. GT4 is fun and all, and it looks ok on my 50" plasma running in 1080i mode, but visually it really can't compare to even some older PC racing games. F1 racing with 20 opponent cars on the track is hard to forget when GT4 is limited to 5 opponents and the screen jaggies are so overwhelming in HD...

Sure, the next gen will be better, and I'm hopeful, but at this point, the "best" console racing game (which i'm at 89% completion level on, just so you know I've had my fair share of experience with GT4) has the following jaw-dropping features:

• Invisible walls all over the track to stop you from touching grass or something.
• Extremely limited tire wear modelling
• Absolutely no damage calculations, visual or otherwise, allowing you to smash into a wall at 220mph and actually come out with a better time than someone who "follows the line" perfectly.
• a game-wide limitation of a max 6 cars on the track at once, including you.
• 1 opponent limit in all rally races
• cardboard cut-out audiences, at best
• limited visual interaction with the tracks. No tire marks or anything.
and probably a bunch of stuff i haven't though about right now.
• A complete lack of interiors, viewable or otherwise
•*a handful of really cool cars that can't even be entered into a race because the console can't render them on screen with an opponent car at the same time.

and this is the best racing game on a console. PGR3 is visually much better, obviously, but the game itself feels cartoony somehow. The cars themselves just aren't right.

My favorite racing game of all time is probably the PC version of NFS: Porsche Unleashed.

If it got a visual overhaul (or even a texture quality increase via a patch or mod), they could re-introduce it as a new game and it would be the best racing game out there, if one of a limited scope (Porsches only).

This game came out in what, 1998, and the cars just feel right. It has realistic-ish (not overboard, but still a big factor) damage, both visual and mechanical. You can sit in the car and drive. You can race against quite a few opponents. It's just a solid game all around.

The console version was, predictably, neutered and dull.

Console games have their place (fighting games, sports games, racing games usually, and platformers like zelda or mario), but they don't work for a whole host of other games.

The Sims?
Civilization?
Half-Life?
StarCraft?
Diablo?

if these games come to a console, they are invariably crappy versus their PC counterparts, and it is usually not because of the lack of processing power in the console...at least not exclusively. It's the format.

[Airforce]

I also know a lot of people that are more casual gamers get frusterated with their PC because when a game is released, they go get it, and have to drop settings to low or mid-to-low settings for playable speeds.

Luckily this hasn't happened to me. I paid $250 for a 7800GT 6 months ago and I've been able to pump up the settings to max on every game I've played :D $600 for a kick ass gaming PC. That's about the exact same price for a premium system xbox 360 :p

Athlon 64 1.8
80GB HD
1GB memory
7800GT
Windows xp

----

This was before I added my huge amount of storage though:

4 320GB WDs
1 250GB WD

Bam...another reason why I do not like consoles. It only serves one use: To play games....and well, I guess you can pop in a movie to watch, BUT with the a computer, the uses are limitless and seems well worth the investment.

My PC alone is used for:

Media hub.....hundreds of movies with just a click
Educational tool
word processor
Game system
File storage
Recording studio
And just plain ole web surfer

The day that the console can do all of these things is the day we will see the decline of the PC gaming section. ;)

[Haoshiro]

I definitely wouldn't say a PS2 compares to a PC... heck, the PC never was a hardware beast. Dreamcast had double its VRAM, GCN/Xbox have more power, etc.

Playing a console game meant for 480i upscaled to 1080i is not even close to playing a game designed for 720p or 1080i, it just doesn't compare - you are right there.

My posts aren't about preference either, your or mine. Its simply speculation on where it looks like things could go.

RTS games do seem like they'd mostly stay on computers... Starcraft, Warhammer, etc. An innovative way to play them on a console could pop, that is certainly true. Revolution has this potential, Nintendo has said they definitely think other controller attachments could/will be produced for specific game styles.

I'd argue Diablo though... really, you don't think the hack'n'slashers wouldn't work fine on a console? ;)

[Haoshiro]

Luckily this hasn't happened to me. I paid $250 for a 7800GT 6 months ago and I've been able to pump up the settings to max on every game I've played :D $600 for a kick ass gaming PC. That's about the exact same price for a premium system xbox 360 :p


Definitely not a bad deal on the graphics card! Xbox 360 Premium, however, is $400 - $200 less.

And of course you would never pirate a game, which is cool.


Bam...another reason why I do not like consoles. It only serves one use: To play games....and well, I guess you can pop in a movie to watch, BUT with the a computer, the uses are limitless and seems well worth the investment.

My PC alone is used for:

Media hub.....hundreds of movies with just a click
Educational tool
word processor
Game system
File storage
Recording studio
And just plain ole web surfer

The day that the console can do all of these things is the day we will see the decline of the PC gaming section. ;)

Why is everyone thinking I'm saying consoles would overtake computers for everything? They won't, never. Okay, so Sony wants to do that with PS3, but I doubt it would ever actually happen.

Now if I recall correctly the Xbox 360 could hook into your network and access all that storage... play the music and movies, browse the pictures.

Hardcore PC gamers will always exist, companies making PC games will always exist. I am not saying otherwise. There will still be people pumping money into their PC continuously and preferring it as there do-all machine.

Doesn't mean you won't see publishers shift and start releasing most games on consoles first.

There are certainly other possibilities. But why did Microsoft get into the console business? I believe this was, at least partly, because they saw it as a huge market - a market that was eating into their PC gaming. If you can't beat them - join them.

Then Microsoft could bring a tie in. Release XNA for Vista, match Xbox 360 APIs to that of Vista. Unify the controllers.... same controller works on Vista and 360. What's next? Games that run on 360/Vista only? Buying a PCI-E Xbox 360 "Gaming Board"? Who knows...

That could still mean even Microsoft Game Studios switching to Xbox 360 as the primary development platform. Release Halo 3 for Xbox 360, then after they've racked in all the money a year later - a quick Vista release of the same game... crazy people like me buying both versions. They make the biggest profits from the 360 version, then bonus cash with the PC port.

[HiRez]

Joysticks are far superior for platformers, but the advantage ends there.I agree, the controls are really the only thing keeping me from going 100% to consoles (assuming the same games were available). I love that you can spend under $500 and get a great, specialized gaming machine. No worrying about system requirements, bad installs, no deciding what effects you want to sacrifice for a decent frame rate, no fretting over how long can I hold out before upgrading my hardware. You just put the disc in and it works, exactly the same on every system. Of course it helps to have a decent tv, but in most cases it's not required. I've seen console games running at standard def on good monitors that look very nice versus PC games running at much higher resolutions. Normally game consoles can do some pretty impressive effects with their specialized hardware and superior fullscreen antialiasing/filtering can help a lot.

But yes, there need to be better control options for consoles, for (as you mentioned) MMORPGs, strategy, sim games and so forth. The Revolution controller may open up a few possibilities. Beyond that you need something for strategy games where you can quickly select and manipulate a large number of units, which the usual console gamepad is ill-suited for at best. And you need a large number of buttons/hotkeys as well as text input for MMORPGs. You can get a mouse and keyboard for some console games, but that's not really an ideal setup when you're sitting in front of the tv.

[Haoshiro]

Yeah, I feel pretty much the same way.

I think some (not all) of the control problems are that developers try to make existing control schemes work on a console, control schemes they've just always used without questioning "could we innovate here?"

As for MMORPGs, in my opinion, a radial-type control scheme could be very effective for a game like WoW (which I do play).

For example:

You map Skill/Spell classes (groups) to the face buttons A, B, X, and Y. When a button is pressed it tosses up a radial/list with 4 different skills/spells. On a single level menu that would equal 16 skills/spells.

In play this would feel like combos, for an example, take a Paladin (forgive innaccuracy, haven't played in months):

A = Holy
- A = Holy Light
- B = Lay of Hands
- X = Consecration
- Y = Holy Shock
B = Buffs
- A = Blessing of Might
- B = Pursuit of Justice
- ...
X = Seals
- A = Seal of Righteousness
- B = Seal of the Crusader
- X = Seal of Command
- ...
Y = Macros/Favorites
- ....


I think you see what I mean in this scheme, and any time something was pressed you would see a visual of the spell/skill icons before being pressed. Personally, I think I would *prefer* this type of control scheme. And a nice way to customize it.

As for text input, many people may not like this... but Xbox 360, for example, forces developer support of voice-chat... thus eliminating the need for a keyboard.

But again, something like the Phantom Lapboard (http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2006/news/01/03/phantom_screen001.jpg) wireless Keyboard/Mouse combo is not impossible.

[Josh]

^

That's a pretty good idea for how WoW might work on console controllers.

I'd still perfer mouse+keyboard though. I have so many hotkeys and keybindings set up, and a completely customized user interface that I am *so* used to, I don't think I would be able to play the way I do on any other set up.

[Kimi]

Idea here. What abour pluging a keyboard and mouse into a console!?!? Then you won't be able to complain about it. There's nothing stopping this happning, some PS2 games have keyboard support. So any argument to do with controls really is weak. If the market shifts to the console, then RTS and FPS can still use the mouse keyboard set up.

[takao]

As for MMORPGs, in my opinion, a radial-type control scheme could be very effective for a game like WoW (which I do play).

[snip]
I think you see what I mean in this scheme, and any time something was pressed you would see a visual of the spell/skill icons before being pressed. Personally, I think I would *prefer* this type of control scheme. And a nice way to customize it.

i think it would work perhaps with guild wars whereyou are limited to abilities but WOW ? i can assure you that a priest will be dialing in phone number long codes
where do you put jump and tab selecting ? where do you put fast selecting of your team members, selecting target of your target (must have on single button), and trinkets, potions, bandages of various sizes
i think they would have to completly rewrite the whole battle system/simplify it

at least the the rouges might learn that they shouldn't pull the hard way ;)

but together with a keyboard + mouse it would interesting on a console (even though it will very likely never happen)

edit: just found this after posting
http://www.mcvuk.com/newsitem.php?id=827

[MacRumorUser]

Idea here. What abour pluging a keyboard and mouse into a console!?!? Then you won't be able to complain about it. There's nothing stopping this happning, some PS2 games have keyboard support. So any argument to do with controls really is weak. If the market shifts to the console, then RTS and FPS can still use the mouse keyboard set up.

Exactly. You can plug a usb keyboard into the 360 anyway. Works great for FFXI and sending messages....

[illegalprelude]

Final Fantasy, Fifa, and King Kong are on the PC....

Just because you own a gaming machine apparently doesn't equate to you knowing what games are out :p

ok bad examples. I know FF11 is out (lol i play it but I mean the regular series (yes Also 7 and 8 came out like 2 years later) I also know Fifa like games are out (I didnt know Kong was out)

but my point is, when people wanna play a sport game, they grab their friends, jump on Xbox Live or get online with the PS2 and play it. Nobody has friends over and says "lets jump on my pc, heres a keyboard for you, one for you and one for you"

thats my point. Again, I dont say gaming will die but PC isnt geared towards all like Councles might be

[Haoshiro]

Just thought I'd share this link that was posted on another forum, thought it was on topic for this thread...

Microsoft's mission: Revive PC gaming (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/videogames/260447_pcgaming.html?source=rss)

[illegalprelude]

Just thought I'd share this link that was posted on another forum, thought it was on topic for this thread...

Microsoft's mission: Revive PC gaming (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/videogames/260447_pcgaming.html?source=rss)

we all know Microsoft has many missions. :D

[Doraemon]

No, it's not a legitimate discussion to have because there is no hard evidence of the end of computer gaming, [...]

Wait...MacRumors.com...
You don't need hard evidence to discuss a hypothesis. That's ridiculous.
Hypothesis are meant to be discussed. Ever thought of the idea of a discussion where people don't all agree and still learn from each other?

[...] and people who write about consoles taking over are just trying to stir up trouble.

Right...
And you're doing exactly what? Claiming to know the only truth is not exactly a open-minded approach to a discussion. The only person who stirred up trouble was you, dude.