French Plan to Open iTunes?

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Yahoo reports (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060313/wr_nm/media_france_copyrights_dc;_ylt=AplWPNmxV63LOiovRtI23EEjtBAF;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--) that France is pushing through a law that would ultimately force Apple to open its iTunes music store to other devices.

The new law would allow consumers to be able to legally use software to convert digital content into any format.

It would no longer be illegal to crack digital rights management -- the codes that protect music, films and other content -- if it is to enable to the conversion from one format to another

This would allow protected content to be playable on any device. If enacted, some speculate that Apple could shut down the French iTunes store to limit the free distribution of the unprotected songs. To combat the resultant piracy, the law reportedly also adds fines for those who download and distribute material illegally. Meanwhile, individuals who make or sell software for illegal sharing could be subject to jail time.

[macintologist]

As long as Apple is coerced into facilitating such conversions, I find no problem with this law, it basically reveres the DMCA which is an awful law to begin with.

[hyperpasta]

In the end, I think that we all have the right to do whatever we damn well please with our legally purchased music. This is a good law, even if its bad for Apple.

Unfortunetly, Apple will probably withdraw from France. We need this law in the US to force Apple to accept it. Fat chance with the RIAA around...

[Bonte]

This law can have some nasty(fun) aftereffects, it would be legal (in France) to convert the WMA-rented music. This law would make the renting of music impossible so all the other WMA stores are almost forced to close there doors and not the ITMS, we can still burn them to CD's and they don't.

[NNO-Stephen]

great, it keeps piracy illegal while making DRM the same damn illegal ******** that it should be.

+1 for France on this one. a great law we need here in the US that we'll NEVER get.

man, can't wait to see what the Blu-Ray and HD-DVD groups do if this passes. I'm really excited about that possibility though.

[ErikGrim]

What an awesome law! Go France!

[68164]

this law would certainly alter the landscape in France - I think it would effect subscription music services more than iTunes - the organisations who own content on iTMS France would be the ones who decided if they wanted to stay or not - if they decide to stay then iTMS France simply no longer applies DRM - is there any more to it than that?

If I was running a subscription service I'd be more concerned - what would stop somebody pulling large chunks of the collection during one month and converting it for use outside the subscription platform?

This will be interesting to see how it all plays out!

[pjkelnhofer]

Unfortunetly, Apple will probably withdraw from France. We need this law in the US to force Apple to accept it. Fat chance with the RIAA around...

I agree. My first guess would be that this is the end of iTMS in France. Of course that is only if the law passes; I don't know much about politics in France, but I would assume that Apple, Sony, MicroSoft and every other company that wants DRM will be lobbying hard against it.

[anikgol]

great news. Always love the french. this whole supercapitalistic idea of digital rights ******** is deadborn. only in your dreams Apple!

[ftaok]

I don't understand is what the French legislators are thinking. It's not like the iTMS is offering anything that you can't get in other formats. If the consumer doesn't like the "Terms and Conditions" that go with buying iTMS songs, then that consumer can walk to a store and purchase a CD of songs.

I'm sure the article only mentions Apple and iPods because of the dominant mindshare, but I'm assuming this would apply to all providers and products, right? Last I checked, Mac users can't play WMV10 files. Will Microsoft be forced to release the code (and/or DRM) so that people can convert WMV10 files? Also, all of the online music stores (except iTMS) use Microsoft's DRM. Will we Mac users have access to de-crypting the WMA DRM so that we can play them on iPods?

I see a whole can of unintended consequences being opened up here. Plus, I am guessing that Apple will have some untraditional allies (e.g. Napster, Microsoft) in the fight against France.

[portent]

What concerns me is the provision for prosecuting those who make available software for "illegal sharing."

How do they determine whether file sharing software is for legal or illegal purposes?

Taken as a whole, though, the new proposed laws seem to safeguard more freedoms than they restrict.

[freeny]

YAHOO! Let the piracy resume!

[Anonymous Freak]

First, yes, I read the article...

I don't see how (according to what is written,) it would force Apple to do anything.

It would make it legal for the purchaser to convert a protected file into an unprotected file; but it doesn't state that APPLE has to enable this. It just means that HYMN (http://hymn-project.org/) becomes legal in France. Apple doesn't have to provide this capability, nor do they have to add support for other mp3 players into iTunes.

Finally, it doesn't force them to remove DRM from their Music Store-purchased songs, it merely makes it legal for a consumer to remove the DRM.

Either that, or there is much more to this law than the article states.

[Stella]

Congrats to the French.

No music store should be tied to one device or operating system.

[BornAgainMac]

This should be for everyone including "It Plays for Sure".

[ginjg]

All Apple has to do is is make the Fairplay DRM license available to other manufacturers. If they choose not to license the DRM for their players then Apple is in the clear.

[mdriftmeyer]

Congrats to the French.

No music store should be tied to one device or operating system.

I guess you'll have to edit your statement seeing how iTunes is on two operating systems. Now regards to one device, I do recall one can use iTunes to store their devices locally to their computer and then those files can be placed into other devices for portable playback. It's not as elegant but it is in no way impossible nor impractical to do.

[Bonte]

Either that, or there is much more to this law than the article states.

Exactly, letting the user burn there music to CD's fits perfectly into this proposal, renting it isn't.

[guerro]

Congrats to the French.

No music store should be tied to one device or operating system.

Spoken like a true Canadian. :rolleyes:

[iMeowbot]

I'm sure the article only mentions Apple and iPods because of the dominant mindshare, but I'm assuming this would apply to all providers and products, right?
Right. The main target of this law is supposed to be media like copy-protected discs.

Another thing to keep in mind is that this is proposed legislation. Just like in any other country, there are two houses where this bill would need to be passed.

[boncellis]

I don't profess to know what the end result of this legislation would be, should it go through, but there is a tricky balance between what government does to regulate business in terms of benefitting (allowing the alteration of DRM) and harming the public (limiting the growth of business). Yes, in the immediate future the French may be able to change the DRM of the tracks in iTunes, but down the road something like this could cripple a company--at that point it's not just Apple who gets hurt, it's also people like us who enjoy the products and services they sell.

This law certainly won't go that far, in my opinion, but I am wary of governmental intervention in a system that seems to be doing well. Often this sort of regulation ends up in a race to the bottom.

[nagromme]

We have the dishonest and unethical on hand (the pirates) who think they deserve to have anything they want.

We have the greedy dinosaurs on the other (the big labels) who put their power trip and generic profit-generating noise ahead of artistry and creativity.

Neither side helps the artists or promotes good music. Both sides hurt the honest consumer and music fan.

While I can see the downside of such a change in France, I'd almost say "try any experiment" to shake things up. iTunes was a good example! The DRM in iTunes, however, was never Apple's goal, it was a concession needed or the iTunes Music Store would never have happened.

[Rantipole]

This news item doesn't make any sense. What does "format" have to do with device? Unless, the way I'm reading it, is that the French want Apple to license Fairplay so that, for example, Creative could make a player that plays iTunes-purchased songs.

Another thing to keep in mind is that this is proposed legislation. Just like in any other country, there are two houses where this bill would need to be passed.
Not every country is set up that way.

[ScubaDuc]

I don't understand is what the French legislators are thinking. It's not like the iTMS is offering anything that you can't get in other formats. If the consumer doesn't like the "Terms and Conditions" that go with buying iTMS songs, then that consumer can walk to a store and purchase a CD of songs.

I'm sure the article only mentions Apple and iPods because of the dominant mindshare, but I'm assuming this would apply to all providers and products, right? Last I checked, Mac users can't play WMV10 files. Will Microsoft be forced to release the code (and/or DRM) so that people can convert WMV10 files? Also, all of the online music stores (except iTMS) use Microsoft's DRM. Will we Mac users have access to de-crypting the WMA DRM so that we can play them on iPods?

I see a whole can of unintended consequences being opened up here. Plus, I am guessing that Apple will have some untraditional allies (e.g. Napster, Microsoft) in the fight against France.


A word of wisdom: the more Napster, Apple and especially Microsuck cause waves, the bigger the waves the French gov will throw back. The problem with digital rights have been an ongoing one in Eu with France leading the way. It goes back to decades ago when a tax was enacted on tapes to compensate musicians for people like u and I in the old days making some tapes for our cars. The same tax has been enacted on CDs and DVDs so the rationale that when one makes a copy of a song is not paying the authors does not hold, since they are getting a subsidy from the government. However, record companies have been enacting all sorts of protections resulting on CDs not playing on older car stereos and not allowing users to make a back up copy of the product, as required by legislation (here). So, when we buy a song in the EU, we should be able to "do as we please" because the record companies are getting the doe anyway.

The iTMS is an extension of the same philosophy. U can't restrict the device people are going use and yes, what is true for Apple will hold true for MS DRM as well

[ScottB]

Whaaat? I wasn't aware I couldn't convert my iTunes downloaded music to another format? (correct me, please, if I'm wrong) That dissappointing. I guess im going back to cd's and ogg vorbis. If this is true though, bye bye iTunes France.

[ftaok]

This news item doesn't make any sense. What does "format" have to do with device? Unless, the way I'm reading it, is that the French want Apple to license Fairplay so that, for example, Creative could make a player that plays iTunes-purchased songs.And that's where the article is poorly written (and poorly researched as well). The author states that the proposed law would force Apple to open iTMS and allow iTMS music to be loaded onto non-Apple mp3 players. But nowhere in the article does the author follow up on that. Instead, the rest of the article is about cracking DRM and converting formats.

Where has journalistic skills gone? Is it too much to ask for a properly written piece, even if it's just on the Internet?

BTW, the French politician's quote is quite amusing. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, being as English probably isn't his first language. Here's what I'm talking about, "It will force some proprietary systems to be opened up ... You have to be able to download content and play it on any device..."

Is he saying that if I download the latest Warrant album, that I should be able to play it on my toaster? After all, a toaster is a device. Aggh, I'll give him a break and assume that he means device=mp3 player.

[boncellis]

Whaaat? I wasn't aware I couldn't convert my iTunes downloaded music to another format? (correct me, please, if I'm wrong) That dissappointing. I guess im going back to cd's and ogg vorbis. If this is true though, bye bye iTunes France.

I believe you can burn purchased tracks to CD, then import them in iTunes in whatever format you wish. It's an extra step, and an added expense (buying the CDs) but essentially the same. I defer to someone else's knowledge on any quality loss in this process though.

[rockthecasbah]

That law would be rediculous! Apple doesn't force people to download their music from their PROPRIETARY source. If they choose to be a purchaser from the iTunes music store, they are accepting the format in which it is downloaded and the products with which they will (or will not) work. What happened to France's Laissez-Faire attitude of yesteryear? :rolleyes:

[obeygiant]

Apple may have to resort to military action if France does not comply. Apple has already sanctioned their iTunes.

[FoxyKaye]

+1 for France on this one. a great law we need here in the US that we'll NEVER get.
Boo-yeah, kudos to Mindy on the catch! (very old Simpsons/tomacco episode reference).

I'm happy somebody's doing something about DRM - I wonder if it would also apply to iTunes video material as well?
YAHOO! Let the piracy resume!
Yeah, there's that too.

Though there was this same debate when the VCR was released, dual cassette decks, CD burners and a host of other read/write devices. Mass piracy, the kind of which the music studios and Hollywood always wave in front of everyone when DRM discussions come up, strikes me as really hard though. Yes, ripping a movie with a videocamera in the theater and distributing it 3 DVDs for $20 is possible, as is ripping them directly from CSS-encrypted DVDs, but the en-masse operations that really take a chunk out of profit always seem to get busted in the end. And besides, how many copying services will blithely duplicate DVDs without a license, which means mass piracy is a DIY operation.

Sure, folks are always going to use peer-to-peer for file swapping, but there always seems to be some sort of counterbalance with bandwidth and quality. Frankly, it has been my experience that P2P networks kind of suck. Corrupted files, purpously misnamed files, more porn than a human could read in a lifetime, connection timeouts and losses, and poor quality music files abound. At some point, it's just easier to buy the song directly from the online store and/or a CD than to waste time on P2P. And if you're doing P2P on a modem, then you really waste time - especially if your selected MP3 winds up to be corrupted, a JPEG with an add-on MP3 extension, or an entirely different song altogether.

In short, it seems like Hollywood and music studios are creating a panic that blows the realities of piracy way out of proportion. The DRM such as iTunes music store uses isn't going to stop massive piracy efforts, just make fair use a PITA for the end user.

[(L)]

In terms of power to the people on this whole DRM shmaz, it's OK...but what about Apple? Is it moral to be able to force companies to provide a product a certain way? Does France have a ban against Sony's proprietary formats? Fine if you can convert it, but I think Apple should be able to provide its products the way they want them, and if that means playable on iPod without tweaking, fine...if users want it badly enough and will convert it themselves, fine...but force them to support competition and potentially hurt the cooperation of the media giants? That seems a bit out of line for a government.

[crees!]

Leave it up to the French.

[Steak]

Why is everyone so glad about this? The only reason these record labels give apple such open access is the digital rights management. If apple does not shut down the french iTunes music store, the labels will pull out.

So great, now people would be able to convert their files to any format, bypassing copy protections. The labels would leave, the store would have no music, and iTunes store is dead. Is that a good thing? I don't see how.

So, they would need to add more freedoms to the downloaded music, but as a result there will be no music available. Great job!

People don't have a RIGHT to download music. It is a service, offered by a company, which one can accept or not accept. They have no obligation to follow yours, ours, or France's rules. Take it or leave it, that is your choice. Laws like this will ruin the current availability of downloaded music, without a doubt. This is an attack on a company by the french government. No harm to them, since France has no music anymore, other than islamic prayer tunes. They want our stuff for free. Will not happen. If I were Jobs, I would pull the plug on France music store TODAY. I would let the current users know why, and let them bitch out their government. Why is it that socialists think that stealing is perfectly fine as long as it is stealing from a corporation? Stealing is wrong, and their is no way to justify it.

-Chris

[crees!]

I don't understand is what the French legislators are thinking. It's not like the iTMS is offering anything that you can't get in other formats. If the consumer doesn't like the "Terms and Conditions" that go with buying iTMS songs, then that consumer can walk to a store and purchase a CD of songs.

I'm sure the article only mentions Apple and iPods because of the dominant mindshare, but I'm assuming this would apply to all providers and products, right? Last I checked, Mac users can't play WMV10 files. Will Microsoft be forced to release the code (and/or DRM) so that people can convert WMV10 files? Also, all of the online music stores (except iTMS) use Microsoft's DRM. Will we Mac users have access to de-crypting the WMA DRM so that we can play them on iPods?

I see a whole can of unintended consequences being opened up here. Plus, I am guessing that Apple will have some untraditional allies (e.g. Napster, Microsoft) in the fight against France.

Ditto my East Coast friend. \m/

[crees!]

Why is everyone so glad about this? The only reason these record labels give apple such open access is the digital rights management. If apple does not shut down the french iTunes music store, the labels will pull out.

So great, now people would be able to convert their files to any format, bypassing copy protections. The labels would leave, the store would have no music, and iTunes store is dead. Is that a good thing? I don't see how.

So, they would need to add more freedoms to the downloaded music, but as a result there will be no music available. Great job!

People don't have a RIGHT to download music. It is a service, offered by a company, which one can accept or not accept. They have no obligation to follow yours, ours, or France's rules. Take it or leave it, that is your choice. Laws like this will ruin the current availability of downloaded music, without a doubt. This is an attack on a company by the french government. No harm to them, since France has no music anymore, other than islamic prayer tunes. They want our stuff for free. Will not happen. If I were Jobs, I would pull the plug on France music store TODAY. I would let the current users know why, and let them bitch out their government. Why is it that socialists think that stealing is perfectly fine as long as it is stealing from a corporation? Stealing is wrong, and their is no way to justify it.

-Chris

Doubly-ditto.

[iMeowbot]

Not every country is set up that way.
France is set up that way, as are all other countries where a law like this would make a big difference.

[elmimmo]

Not gonna happen with current EU laws. Cracking anticopy measures is as illegal as the DCMA says is, coming down from general EU directive (i.e. european law). It is not up to France not to comply with it.

It'd be nice if someone more in the know would enlighten us regarding how accurate this is.

[whooleytoo]

I suppose if you look at the European stance against Microsoft's monopoly position in the OS market, this stance by France (it rhymes!) is consistent.

[A0X0MAX0A]

Well, Apple has to decide if this will lower the amount of people buying iPods and switching to something else, or if they have the market just right, if the iPod is going to be something that even more people are going to buy. It will increase sales of the store I think, but I question if it is a good choice for the iPod itself...We also don't want the non-computer savvy people out there saying that their Apple+iPod is too hard to operate for some reason. I see it somehow coming to effect what Apple has done in a negative way; things might not be as simple, market share could go either way much easier than it can right now, etc.

[nicksoper]

I'd sleep better at night knowing that should one day the iPod not be the best music player on the market, I can easily transfer my songs to a format that is supported by my new music player.

Its a shame that hymn-project.org doesn't work with the new iTunes.

Nicko

[macorama]

So how long until some enterprising French people offer a service where they take your DRM'd music and give you back a plain old mp3, with the un-DRM-ing happening on French servers on French soil?

There must be some legal loopholes to exploit in there somewhere!

[macFanDave]

Au revoir, mes amis francais!

As much as I detest the idea of DRM, Apple's implementation, FairPlay, is as consumer-friendly as it can be while satisfying the soul-sucking greedy maw of the recording industry parasites.

Apple developed a small but loyal user base who bought into a monopoly of hardware and software from a single source. It's called the Mac. They applied this business model to digital music, even though it is a crowded and competitive field. Instead of appealing to the lunatic fringe (like me), it became the most successful system in the field. Apple won its dominant position in the field the right way and it deserves to be able to dictate the terms of use.

If France decides to go forward with this, the French people are going to use iTMS. And if that happens, je suis desolee!

[whooleytoo]

Well, Apple has to decide if this will lower the amount of people buying iPods and switching to something else, or if they have the market just right, if the iPod is going to be something that even more people are going to buy.

To be honest, the other MP3 player manufacturers are struggling to such a degree I don't think iPod sales will suffer at all. Personally I bought 2 iPods before the iTMS ever came out, and even if the store was wound up I'd still buy another to play songs ripped from CD.

What might be interesting though is if people go for niches that Apple hasn't filled. In spite of Motorola's effort, the mobile market still is wide open. Perhaps stereo components or set-top boxes which can play protected AAC natively. There's a lot of potential for expansion there.

[iMeowbot]

Not gonna happen with current EU laws. Cracking anticopy measures is as illegal as the DCMA says is, coming down from general EU directive (i.e. european law). It is not up to France not to comply with it.
That's what this is all really about, infighting over how (if at all) to implement EUCD. At the end of last year, the General Assembly in France tried to enact an EUCD implementation that was far more draconian than what the EU directive would require. This current bill is the backlash. If things continue on the current course, France could end up with two sets of contradictory copyright laws :D

[whooleytoo]

I believe you can burn purchased tracks to CD, then import them in iTunes in whatever format you wish. It's an extra step, and an added expense (buying the CDs) but essentially the same. I defer to someone else's knowledge on any quality loss in this process though.


If you rip them off the CD using the Apple lossless codec, there shouldn't be any loss of quality, but the file size will be much larger than the original protected AAC.

If you rip them using any of the lossy codecs (MP3, AAC, WMA) the file size shouldn't change that much, but the loss of quality should be noticeable as you're transcoding between two lossy formats.

[Bonte]

Why is everyone so glad about this? The only reason these record labels give apple such open access is the digital rights management. If apple does not shut down the french iTunes music store, the labels will pull out.

It affects all digital music stores in France, not only iTunes. Also games, HD movies and why not books (PDF's that can't bee printed or put on an other OS). This proposal has huge consequences so i doubt it gets voted.

[Avicdar]

I don't consider Apples DRM to be restrictive in any way. I know that the tunes will only work on my computer and my iPod. Knew that going in. There are other services where one can download songs in other formats, to play on other players if you don't own an iPod.

As someone else here said, doing anything that causes the content to disappear isn't good for anyone. If the labels sense that Apple making DRM free versions of the music available will hurt them, they won't allow their content to remain in the store - period.

[.Andy]

Good call France DRM sucks. As much as the industry wants to push it I'm not going to start buying the same content in different formats for each device I own. I'm going to buy it once and use it as many legal ways as I choose. They're aren't going to dictate to me where and when I'm going to watch/listen to content that I've purchased.

I'm sick and tired of buying DRM'd CDs that my computer can't play/rip and DVDs that are region protected. They can go after me if I illegal distribute your copyrighted material, but otherwise leave law abiding citizens alone and don't treat them with disdain from the outset.

If the record industry decides to pull up stumps from on-line music they'll only be hammering another nail into their own anachronistic coffins.

[deadturtle]

Apple may have to resort to military action if France does not comply. Apple has already sanctioned their iTunes.


viva la révolution!!!! I for one would march on Paris for Apple!

[nkgmd]

Why not insist that all proprietary software be made available on all platforms? That way it will be manditory that all PC only software be ported to the Mac as well.

By the way, once you burn the Protected AAC files to an audio CD, they can be ripped back as any format and played on any device. It gives you a hard backup copy of your files and eliminates the DRM for pennies and a few minutes of time.

[mojohanna]

G D french, here they go again. They don't know when to stay out and when to get involved.

[Maxiseller]

G D french, here they go again. They don't know when to stay out and when to get involved.

Ha! You're right...try living in a country (UK) that is governed by the swines.

[millypede]

Im I the only person that thinks this is a really bad idea, the French are only good at one thing, wine, they should stick to what they know best, pissed up little french people with even more stupid ideas from the EU.

[KEL9000]

When I first read this story I thought it was a positive move. Openeness is never a bad thing. Why shouldn't everybody be able to play itunes music on their PSP, or nomad? If they made microsoft sell a WMPless windows why should apple playfair? Then I realized that this is France so something must be wrong.

First of all Apple doesn't force customers into buying iPods, have you received any threatening emails from Ari or Steve? me neither. Apple doesn't even force you to use the iTunes music store, you can simply buy your music from Real Rapsody or Best Buy and import it to iTunes to load on your iPod.

Secondly this is France, come on! I suprised they haven't had another revolution over this.

Thirdly music/movies from the iTunes music store are protected because of the RIAA and MPAA not because of apple. The reason for the protection is to stop pirating, not to allow apple to have a monopoly.

Fourthly the french government made up a french word to replace "eMail" because they didn't want to sully their beautiful language with english.

And finally Sebastien Loeb.

We send R. Kelly over there and have him piss on them.

[Stella]

I guess you'll have to edit your statement seeing how iTunes is on two operating systems. Now regards to one device, I do recall one can use iTunes to store their devices locally to their computer and then those files can be placed into other devices for portable playback. It's not as elegant but it is in no way impossible nor impractical to do.

No I won't. You totally miss understand my point by a mile.

I'm not talking about iTunes specifically.

My point is, no music store, no music format should be restricted to a specific music player.

There is absolutely no difference ( unless you are closed minded, like the majority of users on here ) between digital music and a CD. Just different medium. You would not expect to a DVD not to work in your DVD player purely because you don't own a, say, Sony DVD Player.

This analogy is applies also to digital music - ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE!!!

Im I the only person that thinks this is a really bad idea, the French are only good at one thing, wine, they should stick to what they know best, pissed up little french people with even more stupid ideas from the EU.

Spoken like a true little british person. Racist. I would expect no less!

[McDave]

Im I the only person that thinks this is a really bad idea, the French are only good at one thing, wine, they should stick to what they know best, pissed up little french people with even more stupid ideas from the EU.

I'm with you on the bad idea thing. If the industry that filters out all the crap music is brought to it's knees again by legitimised piracy we'll just end up with more...

'Crazy Frog'

Irony & tragedy in one neat, pointless little package - how French!

McD

[KEL9000]

There is absolutely no difference ( unless you are closed minded, like the majority of users on here ) between digital music and a CD. Just different medium. You would not expect to a DVD not to work in your DVD player purely because you don't own a, say, Sony DVD Player.

This analogy is applies also to digital music - ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE!!!



Blu Rey (Sony) vs HD DVD (Toshiba). Proprietary file formats are and should not be illegal. It is up to the vendors to relive VHS/Beta every 5 years. we should just make everything illegal, if you want to make something legal you will have to take you case to the supreme court.

[Stella]

Blu Rey (Sony) vs HD DVD (Toshiba). Proprietary file formats are and should not be illegal. It is up to the vendors to relive VHS/Beta every 5 years. we should just make everything illegal, if you want to make something legal you will have to take you case to the supreme court.

And you can bet one of the following will occur -
* one will die out
* they will have another go at merging standards
* dual players

In another 5 years ( I hope, less ) that we'll be looking back and wondering why the digital format dictated the music player.

[Mechcozmo]

Good Idea... but I don't think it will work. Piracy will become more rampant (how do they get the makers of the illegal software if they live in another country?) as well as the fact that corporations wouldn't trust the people to be good enough on their own and so would just not sell their wares there.

I like the idea, as it would mean better compatibility with audio formats, and we may see good out of it (reading WMA) but I don't think we will see much in the ways of "Good for the average Joe (or French equivalent of said name)"

[bluebomberman]

France alone is not big enough a market to actually force Apple and other online music stores to force their hand and open up their copy-protection schemes to all music players and software programs. Most likely, Apple's iTMS will just close shop in France rather than deal with the hassle of making their store work with, say, Creative's Zen players.

This will also create a situation in which France encourages software engineers to strip DRM from music downloads to make them compatible with all MP3 players. They will get legal cover because the hackers can always claim they're interested only in making iTMS downloads work on a Walkman or Napster's music on an iPod, even if most people want DRM stripped to make it much easier to pirate. And as we all know, once a good hack is found, it'll spread all over the globe in an instant, potentially damaging download markets in other countries.

Subscription services can potentially be screwed over by this. And of course, all the major record labels can just say "we're not doing business with online music stores in France due to the unfriendly business environment" and just pull off all their offerings.

Perhaps if the entire EU joined France in pushing wider compatibility, this could work. (Ignoring all of Europe's much harder than ignoring France alone.) But France acting alone will have negative consequences.

[bluebomberman]

Im I the only person that thinks this is a really bad idea, the French are only good at one thing, wine, they should stick to what they know best, pissed up little french people with even more stupid ideas from the EU.

Don't be so harsh. They make good looking women, too, last I looked.:p

EDIT: Not that they "manufacture" women or anything like that...I mean, I'm not trying to objectify wonderful human beings...oh, never mind.

[aa...]

My god theres a lot of nationalist/racist rubbish being posted here today.

5 years ago there would have been no argument if Sony released CD's that would only work on their walkmans. It would have been met with a chorus of condemnation.

Apple and Microsofts battle for proprietary rights to the music industry is just ridiculous. Why am i going to pay for 128kbps music that i can't even play at my friends place?

[bluebomberman]

Apple and Microsofts battle for proprietary rights to the music industry is just ridiculous. Why am i going to pay for 128kbps music that i can't even play at my friends place?

Because a) plugging your iPod into your friend's speakers/stereo/computer isn't that difficult, and b) you don't have to lug around a fat book of CDs full of filler tracks to pad one-hit wonders.

[Island Dog]

All Steve Jobs has to do is threaten to invade France. They would surrender without hesitation.

[BenRoethig]

God, I hate having to agree with the French.

[zap2]

i'll still use the iPod but if French law say they need to open it, it won't effect Apple UK USA or any other place unless they pass a law

[Goliath]

......
Spoken like a true little british person. Racist. I would expect no less!

It's only the French! The baguette munching, cheese eating, surrender monkeys!

[MrSmith]

Bonjour ma leetle Mac lervers...

Three years for illegally allowing downloads and 17 months for manslaughter (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4532678.stm)? It's hard to take piracy seriously when measured on the scale of things. Maybe the next world power won't be India or China - it'll be the music industry. :(

Oh, and re the first line of my post: how long for hate crimes? :D

[TrenchMouth]

Before people start jumping the gun on the consequences of this whole thing, how about we get an idea of what the likeliness is that this bill will even pass?

i mean, its fun proclaiming the end to be near and all, but it gets a little old after a while...

i mean they havent even voted yet and people are already talking about Apple taking a drastic step to protect their interests...i know watching things play out isnt as fun as speculating, but i think i will sit back and watch on this one.

[zap2]

It's only the French! The baguette munching, cheese eating, surrender monkeys!


Lets forget how the saved USA in the Revoltionary War. The French made an invest ment in USA and it payed off since then!

[savar]

nobody likes you, france

[MrSmith]

Lets forget how they saved the USA in the Revolutionary War.

Well there's reason enough for us Brits... :D

[KEL9000]

Lets forget how the saved USA in the Revoltionary War. The French made an invest ment in USA and it payed off since then!

yeah and it's been hell ever since.
1. the french revolution
2. wwI
3. wwII
4. veitnam

all of which is besides the point. that apple should not have to target all hardware all the time.

I guess sony will have support XBOX360 games for the PS3 and Microsoft has to make Windows run on apple hardware. This actually sounds like a good start. thanks france!

[puuukeey]

some speculate that Apple could shut down the French iTunes store to limit the free distribution of the unprotected songs.

because even if its legal its still evil

[billyboy]

The French are great at engineering things - to death. What they propose has good intentions presumably, but if it ends in usual French style, there will be a simple three lever hydraulically controlled laser powered MP3 player attachment device for un DRMing populaire musique française. The worlds remaining 99.999999999999999% of popular DRM music will simply be incinerated in an underground nuclear power plant.

And according to an indepth documentary I once saw, the reason for the apparent dislike/hatred between English and French is that the two races are so alike! Oh well.

[gauchogolfer]

Yeah, that whole Norman invasion thing seems pretty hard to get over for some people.

As far as the DRM restrictions being lifted goes, I think we have to wait and see what actually gets passed through.

For our French-speaking readers, here's an article in Le Monde about global licensing and the Dadvsi law, with some links to other discussions: link (http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-651865,36-749334@51-747848,0.html).

[rebhaf]

I hope this passes, and I hope it's applied to all digital content providers -- not just iTunes. DRM restrictions only punish the honest people that pay for their music. Illegal file swappers will go on getting their free tunes elsewhere.

[Dinoone]

The business of DRM is mostly made of TV programs encripted to be casted to set-top boxes (satellite or cable, with box/customer ID) and of customer data/ID on SIM card to be "played" on mobile phones.

Apple DRM/ITMS is relatively small business compared to the above. But it is growing and menacing the traditional TV companies switching to digital and wishing to mantain an advantage also in the TV digital area, against outsiders like Apple.

So the French news are meaningful ONLY if they provide that all DRM implementations to be legally cracked, including:
- Cable TV DRM and encription, based on the assumption that satellite programs playback cannot be limited to one brand only (the Satellite/Cable TV company) set-top boxes;
- DSL TV programming, based on the assumption that large Telecoms or DRM providers related digital TV programming playback cannot be limited to one single Operative System based PC or other brand specific devices;
- mobile phones SIM cards, to be used on all mobile phones, and not only on your carrier mobile phone.

If the above are not included in the new French law, then the outcome may only be a hit towards TV business outsiders like Apple in favour of Cable TV, Satellite TV and Telco/Mobile companies, whishing to reduce the impact of a, so far, highly successful innovative model like Apple ITMS, already moving into the TV arena.

I will further investigate the above possibility.

Gerardo Greco
Attorney at Law
greco@mclink.it

[Attonine]

Just posted on The Register:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/14/france_p2p_plan_fails/


"Blanket digital licence fails in France
Carry on pirates, carry on DRM
By Andrew Orlowski in San Francisco
Published Tuesday 14th March 2006 09:56 GMT
Get breaking Reg news straight to your desktop - click here to find out how

Under heavy pressure from the French government, the country's parliament has voted against introducing the world's first blanket licence for sharing digital media. A section that would have permitted internet users to freely exchange copyrighted material, effectively legitimizing file sharing, and hastening the demise of digital rights management (DRM) software, had passed an earlier reading in a vote last December."

[demallien]

Not gonna happen with current EU laws. Cracking anticopy measures is as illegal as the DCMA says is, coming down from general EU directive (i.e. european law). It is not up to France not to comply with it.

It'd be nice if someone more in the know would enlighten us regarding how accurate this is.

OK, I'll have a go. I work for a French DRM company in France....

Basically, the deal is that you aren't allowed to bypass DRM software, full stop. EU Law, and hence binding for France. Sooo, if you are a company selling DRMed material in France, and the consumers have to be able to copy your stuff to any other format (due to the proposed law), but they themselves aren't allowed to do it (due to the EU law), the only other solution is for the DRM material supplier to provide a way of doing this copying (hence defeating the DRM anyway....)

Of course, Apple already complies with this. You can take any iTunes-bought, Fair Play-protected music, burn it to CD, and make as many copies as you like, and convert to whatever format you like. No worries.

As others have noted though, this law would kill the subscription-based concept in France (no big deal IMHO).

[morespce54]

Congrats to the French.

No music store should be tied to one device or operating system.


so true... ;) :)

[-hh]

I believe you can burn purchased tracks to CD, then import them in iTunes in whatever format you wish. It's an extra step...


Yup, and if the French law had passed (I understand it is now DOA), pointing this out is all that Apple would have had to have done to show that their software were in legal compliance to be "open".

In the meantime, Microsoft's DRM'ed WMA format probably would have gotten screwed.


-hh

PS: I'm really disappointed in all of the anti-French comments. Grow up, children.

[macnulty]

Can we now expect the French to open the production of Champaigne to regions outside of France? BTW "methode champaigne" does not count.

[rcread]

I lived in France. The French and its government are overbearing idiots, and this is just one example of why their economy is in the dumps.

[rebhaf]

Can we now expect the French to open the production of Champaigne to regions outside of France? BTW "methode champaigne" does not count.

Since "Champagne" is named after the region in which it's made, why would you want to mislead consumers by using this name outside of that region? Even if you grew a nice sparkling white wine in the south of France, you couldn't give it the name "Champagne." That'd be like making a red wine in California and calling it a Bordeaux. Or making a Dell and calling it a Mac.

I know you're just kidding anyway with your analogy, but I wanted to clarify this, to make sure we're not comparing Apples and grapes.

[Ugg]

Why is everyone so glad about this? The only reason these record labels give apple such open access is the digital rights management. If apple does not shut down the french iTunes music store, the labels will pull out.

So great, now people would be able to convert their files to any format, bypassing copy protections. The labels would leave, the store would have no music, and iTunes store is dead. Is that a good thing? I don't see how.

So, they would need to add more freedoms to the downloaded music, but as a result there will be no music available. Great job!

People don't have a RIGHT to download music. It is a service, offered by a company, which one can accept or not accept. They have no obligation to follow yours, ours, or France's rules. Take it or leave it, that is your choice. Laws like this will ruin the current availability of downloaded music, without a doubt. This is an attack on a company by the french government. No harm to them, since France has no music anymore, other than islamic prayer tunes. They want our stuff for free. Will not happen. If I were Jobs, I would pull the plug on France music store TODAY. I would let the current users know why, and let them bitch out their government. Why is it that socialists think that stealing is perfectly fine as long as it is stealing from a corporation? Stealing is wrong, and their is no way to justify it.

-Chris

Yeah, right. The labels are slowly realizing that digital downloads is the way to the future. If they were to pull out of iTunes, they would lose a substantial chunk of income. It ain't gonna happen.

People don't have a right to download music but they do have a right to purchase music that isn't confined to a single platform. Of course Apple allows a person to burn music to a cd and then reimport it to any platform they desire. But, it's complicated and quality suffers as a result.

Since you're obviously a French hater, the rest of your argument deserves no comment whatsoever.


It's always been a matter of time until Apple was forced to open up the iPod to other music suppliers and iTunes to other devices. They are close to having a monopoly on music downloads and monopolies are bad for business. Capitalism run amok helps nobody whereas a limited socialistic approach can help everyone.

What you need is a good course in economics.

[iPie]

I lived in France. The French and its government are overbearing idiots, and this is just one example of why their economy is in the dumps.

Wow! That's a really thought provoking comment.

Reading this thread (referenced comment excepted) I was just thinking that MacRumors is much more interesting that other Mac sites where comments reflect French bashing and 'an almost fanatical devotion to the [Apple]... and nice red uniforms!"

btw French customers purchase music from:
iTunes Music Store est géré par iTunes S.à.r.l., numéro d’enregistrement B 101 120. Notre siège social se trouve au iTunes s.à r.l., 8 rue Heinrich Heine, L-1720 Luxembourg.
ecommerce is considered to be consumed where the service is located, and so ecommerce companies locate in Luxembourg to pay the lower VAT rates (15%) instead of higher country rates.
Perhaps the French law won't have any impact at all. After all French customers will simply be able to choose a different country to access iTunes (if apple is forced to remove the link, for example),

[rebhaf]

Not really, but...

I remember being a kid, sitting in my bedroom with my finger on the record button of my tape-recorder, waiting for Thriller to come on the radio so I could tape it from the beginning (and hope the deejay doesn't talk over it). Or taking an album that I actually paid for and taping songs from it.

Back then you could make your own homemade mix tapes and copy them 20 times for all your friends. But the record companies never threatened us. Of course, we can still use tapes if we want to, but now we've got so much cool stuff to play on.

However, today, with all the quality and convenience of ripping CDs to digital files, I'm sharing less music than ever before. I'm actually less of a threat to the record companies than when I was 12.

The real thing these record companies should be going after are mass-file-sharing platforms and the people sharing on/with them. It's useless to hassle the people that are actually paying for the songs. We're the good guys.

My wife owns a Sony MP3 player and I have an iPod shuffle. I've paid for about a hundred iTunes songs that I can't transfer to her machine (at least, I can't with the tools I have on my computer today -- I guess there must be hack software to do it). And she ordered Sony Connect songs that I can't play on my iPod.

Is it too much to ask to buy music and listen to it on multiple devices? I don't give a toss about France's socialist causes or protectionist laws. I just want to be able to play Public Enemy on two machines!!!

[Josh]

I'm glad to see so much support for this law, which I guess I didn't expect here.

This law, and any similar, that allow you to do with the things you own what you please, are the only laws worth having.

[elmimmo]

Back then you could make your own homemade mix tapes and copy them 20 times for all your friends. But the record companies never threatened us.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bc/Home_taping_is_killing_music.png

See entry in wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_taping_is_killing_music)

[macnulty]

Since "Champagne" is named after the region in which it's made, why would you want to mislead consumers by using this name outside of that region? Even if you grew a nice sparkling white wine in the south of France, you couldn't give it the name "Champagne." That'd be like making a red wine in California and calling it a Bordeaux. Or making a Dell and calling it a Mac.

I know you're just kidding anyway with your analogy, but I wanted to clarify this, to make sure we're not comparing Apples and grapes.


Well, yes and no. It is true that the Champagne region of France is the origins of the beverage, however it is as much the rigors and method of production that is the actual beverage. That is why you have "Methode Champagne" and "Champagne", both are sparkling wines made with the same type grape in exactly same way. There is only one difference.
To take it to the absurd, you can say you have Texas Toast and Texas Method Toast.:D

[Goliath]

Since "Champagne" is named after the region in which it's made, why would you want to mislead consumers by using this name outside of that region? Even if you grew a nice sparkling white wine in the south of France, you couldn't give it the name "Champagne." That'd be like making a red wine in California and calling it a Bordeaux. Or making a Dell and calling it a Mac.

I know you're just kidding anyway with your analogy, but I wanted to clarify this, to make sure we're not comparing Apples and grapes.


Well on that basis cheddar cheese should only be named if it was actually made in the Cheddar Gorge region of the UK. Same goes for Cornish pasties, Feta cheese, Kalamata olives..... but all are produced in places that bear no relation to the products origin.

[labrats5]

Why stop there?
Why not insist that all proprietary software be made available on all platforms? That way it will be manditory that all PC only software be ported to the Mac as well.

Excellent excellent point. It is hipocritical to open up media formats but not software ones. There's really no way around it. With the intel transition, both macs and pc's now use essentially the same hardware, so the hardware/software tie-in arguement no longer holds water.

[xy14]

Vive la France!

[dejo]

This law, and any similar, that allow you to do with the things you own what you please, are the only laws worth having.

You think by purchasing a song through the iTMS you now own it? Sorry, you don't.

[rebhaf]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bc/Home_taping_is_killing_music.png

See entry in wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_taping_is_killing_music)


That's hilarious. So I guess they were fighting us then too. I was just too young to know.

[(L)]

Why is everyone so glad about this? The only reason these record labels give apple such open access is the digital rights management. If apple does not shut down the french iTunes music store, the labels will pull out.

So great, now people would be able to convert their files to any format, bypassing copy protections. The labels would leave, the store would have no music, and iTunes store is dead. Is that a good thing? I don't see how.

So, they would need to add more freedoms to the downloaded music, but as a result there will be no music available. Great job!

People don't have a RIGHT to download music. It is a service, offered by a company, which one can accept or not accept. They have no obligation to follow yours, ours, or France's rules. Take it or leave it, that is your choice. Laws like this will ruin the current availability of downloaded music, without a doubt. This is an attack on a company by the french government. No harm to them, since France has no music anymore, other than islamic prayer tunes. They want our stuff for free. Will not happen. If I were Jobs, I would pull the plug on France music store TODAY. I would let the current users know why, and let them bitch out their government. Why is it that socialists think that stealing is perfectly fine as long as it is stealing from a corporation? Stealing is wrong, and their is no way to justify it.

-Chris

That's what I thought....

[(L)]

My point is, no music store, no music format should be restricted to a specific music player.

In short, your statement is morally wrong. In length:

You are making a moral judgment on what "should" be based on your opinion and perspective. Fact is, if company A wanted to sell a proprietary music format only compatible with their music player, it's perfectly moral for A to do so. Customer X may very well want to be able to find some music file and put it on his music player - if in doing so he finds that his own music player (not from company A) won't play the music provided from company A, he can go get the music elsewhere, or be a whiner that complains - "I want everybody to provide for me what I want the way I want it."

If you own a nomad or a rio or a sony or other third-rate music player (I speak with bias here due to experience), just because iTMS doesn't sell you music compatible with your device doesn't mean you can force Apple to provide what you want to buy. Rather, take a moment and wonder why you bought that music player and why you don't look to other music stores. Fact is, if there were real and major competitors to iTunes, especially, say, a competitor from the company that made your music player, you'd quit your socialist whining because you'd have an alternative.

So what you're essentially saying is this - "I want Apple to sell me music I can play on my non-Apple device, because I said so." Can't you see that is so juvenile and extremely anti-capitalist? You are essentially trying to dictate exactly how and to whom Apple sells its music. Consider this - Apple makes money by selling iPods and music from iTMS, almost hand in hand, but it is not a monopoly (there are all those other Windows affiliated music sites, if you must resort to such) and it's perfectly legal and moral for them to sell music in a (semi)proprietary format. If Apple only wants to sell music to iPod owners (which is a bit off the mark anyway), they have a right to choose to do so. It is immoral to force people to provide what you want solely on the basis that you want it - if it makes them money, maybe they'll look into it some day...but it's not for you to point a gun to Steve Jobs and force him to provide what you want.

Theoretically, on a 1 to 1 basis, it may make sense for Apple to bend over backwards to comply with your insolent demand - but you should have to pay for the downtime of the music store, the work of the people involved, cost, and a premium to balance the iPod purchase you never made...and you end up paying $376,000 for a 6-track album you could have bought in a store and stuffed into your third-rate media player to begin with. Do you get my point? Apple is not forcing you to want music from the iTMS...if you want it to play on your music player, you could get the music from a variety of providers and you don't need iTunes. If you want it from iTMS, buy an iPod. If you are the kind of person that believes that wanting something and not being able to pay for it justifies expropriation or theft, go ahead and pirate music since you're no better than a mugger or thief.

There is absolutely no difference ( unless you are closed minded, like the majority of users on here ) between digital music and a CD. Just different medium. You would not expect to a DVD not to work in your DVD player purely because you don't own a, say, Sony DVD Player.

This analogy is applies also to digital music - ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE!!!


You demonstrate much immaturity of thought here. Taking the "this whole forum is against me because everyone else is stupid" approach only induces comic laughter towards somebody who is rather arrogant for knowing so little, not pity for a misunderstood minority voice.

Digital music and CD's have plenty of differences, although they are in some ways even more similar than you cared to realize. Like...um, a CD contains digital music. That's right, CDs = digital music. What's this BS about different media?

Want to talk about DVD's? Ever hear of region coding? What about Blu-ray vs HD DVD? Ever try buying a DVD from a foreign country and play it in your ordinary DVD player? Think of the region-free DVD player (of which there are many) as a Creative Nomad that decided to support AAC and came with software to transfer music on your HDD on your computer in AAC form to your Creative Nomad. If you bought a region-limited DVD player, you can't demand the industry to abandon region coding, regardless of whether or not you could go out and buy a region-free player. In the case of the DVD, there is a workaround.

In the case of music files, there are almost no devices factory-built to play every music file type, so you're stuck. So? This is a simple problem of supply and demand. You say you expect all music files to be able to play on your device (hey, you could just buy the CD you know), which is only compatible with some of them. Why don't you write to the manufacurer of your music player and complain? iPod users represent a huge demand for music compatible with the iPod, and Apple supplies it, together with other companies. Supply and demand working perfectly. Compared to that, your demand, the minority demand for iTMS to be compatible with third-party devices at (most likely) a loss to Apple, is insignificant; a waste of time and money. Just because the iTMS is good doesn't make it the only - go elsewhere and enjoy the incompetence of the competition. No monopoly, just one company doing considerably better than the rest combined.

[(L)]

I'm glad to see so much support for this law, which I guess I didn't expect here.

This law, and any similar, that allow you to do with the things you own what you please, are the only laws worth having.

Bull. You buy AAC music thru iTMS. AAC music means not the original recording, not a CD itself which can be ripped and put as WMA or WAV or etc, but AAC music compatible with any device that plays AAC files. You don't own the music itself, you own the right and ability to play that music. You are not given the right to ferment wine with your newly bought AAC files, no more than you are given the right to expect AAC files to play on incompatible hardware. If you can find a way to do either, go ahead, nobody's stopping you - in that sense you have always been allowed to do with it what you please, though of course you don't own property rights to the music itself. However, you must realize what exactly you buy when you make a purchase through the iTMS - AAC files. This is not hidden or unknown or anything. The purchase does not assume that you will even play the music - it assumes only that you wanted the AAC file and was willing to pay for it. The mainstream reason to want an AAC file is to play it on AAC compatible devices like the iPod or in iTunes, which explains why iTMS is in business. You are basically guaranteed that the AAC file will play on the AAC compatible device, and vice versa. Purchasing an AAC file does not mean purchasing music in digital form that will play on any device you wish, by definition. You simply haven't bought something you can "do with it what you please." If you want to buy music files in some universal format, tough luck - you won't get it from iTMS, end of story, unless Apple decides to. You can try to force people to provide what you want, but I guarantee you that they won't, unless they find it profitable to do so.

In short, you don't buy an FM only radio and demand that it play AM radio waves just because you want it. No, you pay for it if it is available (i.e., buy an FM/AM radio). If not, there either is not enough demand for such and/or nobody is providing it, plain and simple. You don't tell all the AM waves to switch to FM because you are the Almightly Lord Twit.

[(L)]

Not really, but...

I remember being a kid, sitting in my bedroom with my finger on the record button of my tape-recorder, waiting for Thriller to come on the radio so I could tape it from the beginning (and hope the deejay doesn't talk over it). Or taking an album that I actually paid for and taping songs from it.

Back then you could make your own homemade mix tapes and copy them 20 times for all your friends. But the record companies never threatened us. Of course, we can still use tapes if we want to, but now we've got so much cool stuff to play on.

However, today, with all the quality and convenience of ripping CDs to digital files, I'm sharing less music than ever before. I'm actually less of a threat to the record companies than when I was 12.

The real thing these record companies should be going after are mass-file-sharing platforms and the people sharing on/with them. It's useless to hassle the people that are actually paying for the songs. We're the good guys.

My wife owns a Sony MP3 player and I have an iPod shuffle. I've paid for about a hundred iTunes songs that I can't transfer to her machine (at least, I can't with the tools I have on my computer today -- I guess there must be hack software to do it). And she ordered Sony Connect songs that I can't play on my iPod.

Is it too much to ask to buy music and listen to it on multiple devices? I don't give a toss about France's socialist causes or protectionist laws. I just want to be able to play Public Enemy on two machines!!!

This is one of the more sensible posts, for which I'm thankful. I think you summarized the basic response to the limits of music file formats, which is to feel like you should be able to play the music on multiple devices just like you can a CD, which we are used to.

You ask if it is too much to ask to buy music and listen to it on multiple devices. No, it isn't. You can buy CD's, in fact. But, unfortunately for you and your wife, your music stores sell you proprietary formats. You've got to stop a minute though. Could you buy the songs you both want on CD and then transfer it to both devices? Sure. When you buy a CD, it comes with that capability. When you buy music from those stores you use, you are not buying CD's (and certainly not CD quality) - you pay for a specific form of the music designed to play only on devices compatible with that form, in a way more limited than the CD. You could hope that some day it is profitable for some or all companies to market over the internet electronic versions of the CD, but there's no justification for you to demand that such is provided for you based on your want. Plus, the proprietary music file formats are not really for security in the end either - but for profit (think about the iTMS + iPod combo). They're not "hassling" you as if you'd steal music, but rather, making a profit their way.

Personally, I hate Sony. Reason #1 is that their products are more often than not, overpriced mediocrities. Reason #2 is that they come up with umpteen proprietary formats for anything they can hope to get away with. You can't use a SanDisk card, you need a Sony Memory Stick. You can buy UMD's (universal media disks which are not universal at all) that play movies on a PSP, but they're the exact same movies available on DVD - why even bother selling UMD movies, which then end up costing a lot to compensate for their unpopularity. If you buy a piece of Sony hardware, you need peripherals and software from Sony and nobody else, to exaggerate just a bit. My point is, I never buy anything Sony. But it must work for them, because they continue to do so. Similarly, Apple's iTMS must be working for them too, or they'd go out of business. Might they make more money if they were a source of music for all music players? Maybe, but I doubt it, because of the way the iTMS + iPod combo is set up.

Bottom line is that when your wife buys her music, she doesn't pay for something that is guaranteed to play on your iPod, and vice versa. Look for mp3 files or CD's that are compatible with both devices and buy those instead, if you want it so badly, at least until it is standardized, if ever.

[(L)]

People don't have a right to download music but they do have a right to purchase music that isn't confined to a single platform.

What's this nonsense? People have the right to purchase what? Since when are there rights involving purchases? What sort of government are you familiar with? That's one of the civil liberties?

Apple has a right to sell music confined to AAC compatible devices. Live with it, or buy music from elsewhere. If it isn't available elsewhere, buy a CD. No big deal. Don't tell others how to run their businesses when it's not a matter of endangering the public. This is simply a matter of you declaring some eternal truth about human rights involving you getting what you want. Good luck with that, if you succeed the world will be a worse place.


Of course Apple allows a person to burn music to a cd and then reimport it to any platform they desire. But, it's complicated and quality suffers as a result.

So you want them to provide in a pefect and effortless manner, exactly what you wish for. Oh OK, I'm sure they'd love to run their business tailored to your wishes.

It's always been a matter of time until Apple was forced to open up the iPod to other music suppliers and iTunes to other devices.

Know this, Ugg. You and I dying is a "matter of time." Forcing businesses to sell certain products a certain way is called dictatorship, it's immoral, and it's a "matter of crime." Besides, the iPod IS open to other music suppliers, like CD labels and anyone that sells mp3 audio or any other compatible format. iTMS is open only to AAC compatible devices, but again, that's Apple's business, not yours. Note that mp3 music stores are not compatible with my Portable CD Player unless I burn the music to CD's. They are not at all compatible with my radio. Or telephone. Or washing machine. They also don't claim to be, and that's why I don't buy music from them expecting to listen to it playing in my microwave. No, I rather think that anybody with half a brain, assuming he wants to play the music and be able to listen to it, would buy the music from a source compatible with the device he wants to play it on. It really isn't that hard to do, you know.

They are close to having a monopoly on music downloads and monopolies are bad for business.

No, no, NO. iTMS is not a monopoly - it has 80+% market share, but people can always go elsewhere for music downloads, even iPod owners, so long as it is in another compatible format like mp3 (which is for the most part, a better encoding system than AAC anyway). Monopolies are bad for business, you say, but what is actually hurting business in today's world is that nobody else has assembled as great an online music store and are not being competitive enough, not that they have no hope of competing. (Let me reiterate - what if somebody could provide a similar service that people may favor, and sell mp3 tracks which are compatible with iPods...might they not decrease the market share of iTMS? What if something much better comes along?) iTMS being great is a bit different from having no competition - they have competition, which unfortunately is not very strong. Stronger competition would be better for the economy, but weakening the best competitor just sets the bar low. When you come to see that, you will understand why the standard of living gets better neither from monopolies nor from stagnation and limits on human success, but rather from businesses largely left to compete with each other fairly and having competent people running those businesses.

Capitalism run amok helps nobody whereas a limited socialistic approach can help everyone.

"Capitalism run amok" is when corporate leaders start doing destructive things like dumping waste in the river, not when Apple is successful far beyond its competition. Obviously, by definition "run amok" is bad. A limited socialistic approach run amok is millions dead, millions more impoverished, and the stagnation of economy, history, intellect, art, etc. What do you think taxes are? Taxes are a limited socialistic approach, a way of funding societally beneficial necessities like education and law enforcement, though in recent times a lot of it is wrongfully spent on bridges that lead nowhere or overseas in wars that are not strictly-speaking necessary. In capitalist America, for example, the income that is your property is the capitalist bit of individual private property. Your taxes are a degree of socialism in that suddenly the private property is public (or semi-public) property. The system works OK, and doesn't run amok.

On the other hand, when governments start trying to force companies to produce and provide what the governments think the people want, that's socialism running amok. The whole idea is that people will capitalize on what other people will pay for - iTMS France was already doing that. If France cripples the iTMS and causes Apple to lose money, they will be capitalizing less on what ever so slightly more people will purchase, much less if they start losing record labels, which is possible if the record labels see potential of losing money, which they will if there is more potential of insecurity and such or it becomes necessary to provide more for the same price or less. So yes, they're in for it as long as it remains robust and profitable, but this sort of profit speed bump may be rather discouraging, not to mention philosophically insulting. I certainly wouldn't sell my products to those that think they can control what I sell and how I sell it - I'd rather find a good, healthy market.

What you need is a good course in economics.

Now I realize you weren't talking to me, Mr prominent socialist by name of Ugg, but you show no signs of understanding the first thing when it comes to economics and human society, not if you call business success "capitalism run amok." If I've misunderstood you, you could be dead-on about slight socialism being beneficial, as is proven in capitalist economies. However, France putting an artificial limit on success and arbitrating the sale of products equates to an artificial tampering with natural economics that were running fine and smoothly, not "amok."

[(L)]

so true... ;) :)

so destructively false...

[(L)]

i wrote too much...:eek:

[mheidt]

to L:

True :)

But I comply to most of it.
You should have skipped the Sony bashing though.
Just got SonyEricsson and never saw a better mobile....
And most of your points comply to Apple as well. Only that Apple's tools are much better :)

But you're right. Demand and supply will solve it...
I only have Apple at home incl. two iPods. But I would never ever buy at iTMS or use .Mac.
Those are evil in means of freedom.
And I would never ever buy Sony Camcorders because of their proprietary media-formats. But only, because they are more expensive.
The products themselves are quite good so that they find their buyers.

Back to the law. That law will never pass, but I like the guts to open the discussion about DRM again.
You need to see the law in contrast to the EU-Law which is bad as well.
But this seems to be unkown in the UK as well when I read those french-hating posts.

[iPie]

What's this nonsense? People have the right to purchase what? Since when are there rights involving purchases? What sort of government are you familiar with? That's one of the civil liberties?



Yes, I heard that somewhere: the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of whatever purchase makes you happy.

I guess that is has been a while since you operated a business in the US or elsewhere: consumers have plenty of rights involving purchases; and firms have many responsibilities and obligations - everywhere.

What sort of government are YOU familiar with?

BTW: I agree with mheidt, I own an iPod and would never buy from iTMS

[rebhaf]

Forcing businesses to sell certain products a certain way is called dictatorship, it's immoral, and it's a "matter of crime."

If I may chime in this debate... I agree with most of your point of view, but things aren't so black and white. Governments do have to have some type of hand in how businesses operate (and not only when it's a matter of public danger"). For example, nobody is forcing consumers to use Windows, yet Microsoft is always going to court and shelling out hundreds of millions in anti-trust suits because of the way they sell and package their products. It's simple anti-monopoly measures. I'm not so sure I agree with all these measures, but they're a reality in most developed countries. I, personally, don't think Apple is running a monopoly with iTunes Music Store (no one NEEDS to buy music downloads), but I would love to see all legally purchased music standardized. For selfish reasons, of course.

[(L)]

If I may chime in this debate... I agree with most of your point of view, but things aren't so black and white. Governments do have to have some type of hand in how businesses operate (and not only when it's a matter of public danger"). For example, nobody is forcing consumers to use Windows, yet Microsoft is always going to court and shelling out hundreds of millions in anti-trust suits because of the way they sell and package their products. It's simple anti-monopoly measures. I'm not so sure I agree with all these measures, but they're a reality in most developed countries. I, personally, don't think Apple is running a monopoly with iTunes Music Store (no one NEEDS to buy music downloads), but I would love to see all legally purchased music standardized. For selfish reasons, of course.

That's what I mean...iTMS does not need to be fiddled with. In MS's case, for example, I don't see how it should be so bad for WMP to be bundled with Windows. My WMP back when I used Windows simply quit on me with "INTERNAL PROGRAM ERROR." Never worked again. That's already a good reason to buy other software (of course, I bought a Mac ultimately). Many Macs come bundled with iLife...that's even more limiting since iLife is good enough for most people. So sure, such suits are a reality, but should they be? I guess that's the question of the day. As for iTMS, I actually don't think it's based on necessity that you measure a monopoly, but iTMS is not a monopoly if you consider all those other companies involved, that are simply not doing as well. It's not like iTMS has access to all the web space or all the record labels or is getting away with charging astronomical prices they could charge if they were a monopoly.

Really, does it make such a huge difference to the public whether you buy Windows with WMP or just Windows? AAC files or some sort of standardized file (which I do think we may eventually see, esp something like a secured mp3 file, maybe)? Nobody's dying over either, and although I'd admit that since many people have a real need of computers, the Windows with WMP thing is close to cashing in on that need in a destructive manner. But not iTMS, not when competition is in equal reach.

[(L)]

Yes, I heard that somewhere: the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of whatever purchase makes you happy.

I guess that is has been a while since you operated a business in the US or elsewhere: consumers have plenty of rights involving purchases; and firms have many responsibilities and obligations - everywhere.

What sort of government are YOU familiar with?

BTW: I agree with mheidt, I own an iPod and would never buy from iTMS

You misunderstand. You have the right to pursue happiness, and there are certain rights involved in legal purchases (such as not being conned and such). What I was arguing against was the notion that people have the right to be able to purchase this proposed product from iTMS. People are free to purchase what's on the market...not to force Apple to put something on the market. There is no right that says you must be provided for by Apple or any other specific company (except perhaps some government "companies"). Apple is not responsible in providing what the public wants, though in many cases it will do that just to be profitable. Apple's legal responsibility is to sell what they say they sell, not to sell what Joe Shmo told them to sell. That's all I'm saying. There are a number of rights involved in purchases, but we're not talking about problems with people buying AAC files, but demands for something Apple doesn't currently sell of its own will.

I see my own diction threw you off, I'm sorry. But I meant rights "involving purchases" as in the right to demand that what you purchased be turned into something you didn't. Like...it's hard to think of a similar example, or even a good one...maybe like buying toilet paper and demanding that it morph into tissue every time you need to blow your nose, for your own convenience, when you know full well that you bought toilet paper. That's not one of the rights involving purchases.

[macnulty]

Governments should not decide on standardized music format, very bad idea.

Consumers do not have the right to purchase whatever they want when they want. Think of restrictions on alcohol.

Apple is a business and iPod - iTunes is their product as is the seamless integration of the two, don't like it don't buy it. There are other players and services to choose.

There really isn't a benefit to Apple to opening their music product, ROI on iTunes isn't that great and opening it would diminish future iPod sales.

[AnimeUnrivaled]

Why is everybody reading way too much into this?


I don't see how (according to what is written,) it would force Apple to do anything.

It would make it legal for the purchaser to convert a protected file into an unprotected file; but it doesn't state that APPLE has to enable this. It just means that HYMN becomes legal in France. Apple doesn't have to provide this capability, nor do they have to add support for other mp3 players into iTunes.

Finally, it doesn't force them to remove DRM from their Music Store-purchased songs, it merely makes it legal for a consumer to remove the DRM.

EXACTLY.

This in no way says anything about forcing apple to do anything. Apple can continue to have DRM on its store as much as it wants. It doesn't change anything. When the hymn project gets up to date, things will be exactly as they were before, with hymn users removing the DRM from their iTunes tracks, and listening to the music elsewhere. The only thing that gets changed is the fact that the idiocy of the DMCA no longer applies. That is to say, using hymn to take away the DRM is no longer illegal.

This does not take the freedom of the company away by forcing it to alter its product. This does take away artificial limits on users' rights to do what they wish with ther purchased content. THAT'S ALL.

also:


Not gonna happen with current EU laws. Cracking anticopy measures is as illegal as the DCMA says is, coming down from general EU directive (i.e. european law). It is not up to France not to comply with it.

While I will not claim to understand how the EU's drip-down policies work, I believe that, sadly, elmimmo is right and that this doesn't really have a chance of doing what needs to be done.

[Mechcozmo]

Excellent excellent point. It is hipocritical to open up media formats but not software ones. There's really no way around it. With the intel transition, both macs and pc's now use essentially the same hardware, so the hardware/software tie-in arguement no longer holds water.

Yeah... but the software is what makes a Win32 binary different from an OS X binary... all those DLLs that WINE fakes? That's what is needed. Make a universal operating system if you want no hardware or software tie-ins. But otherwise, good luck on making people write IDENTICAL code for every single application. And what about the applications without OS X equivalents? Spyware uses DLLs that aren't in OS X or in WINE for that matter.

[happyjaxx]

As Best Law Writer: Vivendi Universal
As Best Second Role: Warner
As Best Scenario: Renaud Donnedieu de Vabre de Vivendi

Law Makers are Big Bosses and Music Majors nowadays... at least here

hundreds of thousands are in the streets since a few days (because of new dangerous Job Contracts) but nobody will listen, so they won't listen a few nerds who just wanna listen music as they want.

BTW: the DADVSI law has been voted yesterday evening... since I use JHymn to listen my music I buy legally on my Lifedrive("FairRights" after all), If cops catch me, I'll have to pay 750€...
And I can't DeCSS DVD's... and/or use VLC to play protected DVD's neither... on my Linux computers for example...

Thanks France... really... thanks...

[whooleytoo]

Well, well! The French bill has been passed in the National Assembly, and thus is likely to be made law. The next few weeks should be interesting for Apple & iTunes.


Linkey poo.. (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060321/france_itunes_vote.html?.v=1)

[Stella]

LOL. your reply is humerous.

Digital music is no different than CDs and be treated no differently. Its a different meduim only - something that some peope can't get around their heads. As I said, you wouldn't expect a CD not to play in your CD player just because its not Sony, for example. Digital music should be no different. Digital music should be universally playable on all devices.

Once again, in a few years time there will be a universal DRM standard and we will laugh at the current state of affairs we have today.

Regional coding on a DVD is a waste of time, its easy to pick up a DVD player that is changable to region free.



I have DVDs from the UK.. I'm not buying the same ones again in Canada - some aren't even available.

In short, your sta
tement is morally wrong. In length:

You are making a moral judgment on what "should" be based on your opinion and perspective. Fact is, if company A wanted to sell a proprietary music format only compatible with their music player, it's perfectly moral for A to do so. Customer X may very well want to be able to find some music file and put it on his music player - if in doing so he finds that his own music player (not from company A) won't play the music provided from company A, he can go get the music elsewhere, or be a whiner that complains - "I want everybody to provide for me what I want the way I want it."

If you own a nomad or a rio or a sony or other third-rate music player (I speak with bias here due to experience), just because iTMS doesn't sell you music compatible with your device doesn't mean you can force Apple to provide what you want to buy. Rather, take a moment and wonder why you bought that music player and why you don't look to other music stores. Fact is, if there were real and major competitors to iTunes, especially, say, a competitor from the company that made your music player, you'd quit your socialist whining because you'd have an alternative.

So what you're essentially saying is this - "I want Apple to sell me music I can play on my non-Apple device, because I said so." Can't you see that is so juvenile and extremely anti-capitalist? You are essentially trying to dictate exactly how and to whom Apple sells its music. Consider this - Apple makes money by selling iPods and music from iTMS, almost hand in hand, but it is not a monopoly (there are all those other Windows affiliated music sites, if you must resort to such) and it's perfectly legal and moral for them to sell music in a (semi)proprietary format. If Apple only wants to sell music to iPod owners (which is a bit off the mark anyway), they have a right to choose to do so. It is immoral to force people to provide what you want solely on the basis that you want it - if it makes them money, maybe they'll look into it some day...but it's not for you to point a gun to Steve Jobs and force him to provide what you want.

Theoretically, on a 1 to 1 basis, it may make sense for Apple to bend over backwards to comply with your insolent demand - but you should have to pay for the downtime of the music store, the work of the people involved, cost, and a premium to balance the iPod purchase you never made...and you end up paying $376,000 for a 6-track album you could have bought in a store and stuffed into your third-rate media player to begin with. Do you get my point? Apple is not forcing you to want music from the iTMS...if you want it to play on your music player, you could get the music from a variety of providers and you don't need iTunes. If you want it from iTMS, buy an iPod. If you are the kind of person that believes that wanting something and not being able to pay for it justifies expropriation or theft, go ahead and pirate music since you're no better than a mugger or thief.



You demonstrate much immaturity of thought here. Taking the "this whole forum is against me because everyone else is stupid" approach only induces comic laughter towards somebody who is rather arrogant for knowing so little, not pity for a misunderstood minority voice.

Digital music and CD's have plenty of differences, although they are in some ways even more similar than you cared to realize. Like...um, a CD contains digital music. That's right, CDs = digital music. What's this BS about different media?

Want to talk about DVD's? Ever hear of region coding? What about Blu-ray vs HD DVD? Ever try buying a DVD from a foreign country and play it in your ordinary DVD player? Think of the region-free DVD player (of which there are many) as a Creative Nomad that decided to support AAC and came with software to transfer music on your HDD on your computer in AAC form to your Creative Nomad. If you bought a region-limited DVD player, you can't demand the industry to abandon region coding, regardless of whether or not you could go out and buy a region-free player. In the case of the DVD, there is a workaround.

In the case of music files, there are almost no devices factory-built to play every music file type, so you're stuck. So? This is a simple problem of supply and demand. You say you expect all music files to be able to play on your device (hey, you could just buy the CD you know), which is only compatible with some of them. Why don't you write to the manufacurer of your music player and complain? iPod users represent a huge demand for music compatible with the iPod, and Apple supplies it, together with other companies. Supply and demand working perfectly. Compared to that, your demand, the minority demand for iTMS to be compatible with third-party devices at (most likely) a loss to Apple, is insignificant; a waste of time and money. Just because the iTMS is good doesn't make it the only - go elsewhere and enjoy the incompetence of the competition. No monopoly, just one company doing considerably better than the rest combined.

[cycocelica]

Good. I hope this law passes and Apple stays in France. And if they leave, I hope they get hurt by it. Don't get me wrong, I love Apple but like it has been stated by Stella, you should be able to play any digital music on any device without having to do any other steps.

[Stella]

Good. I hope this law passes and Apple stays in France. And if they leave, I hope they get hurt by it. Don't get me wrong, I love Apple but like it has been stated by Stella, you should be able to play any digital music on any device without having to do any other steps.

AS the BBC article says, hopefully the EU will take another look at the iTMS / DRM situation and act on it. The EU have already made the music industry come up with a unified EU licensing for online stores. Hopefully, you people in Europe will benefit from more intervention - a unified DRM standard. That would be just great. Music Stores will have to compete upon quality ( that includes, the whole package - such as iPod / iTunes ) , rather than music player / store control.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4828296.stm

[ftaok]

LOL. your reply is humerous.

Digital music is no different than CDs and be treated no differently. Its a different meduim only - something that some peope can't get around their heads. As I said, you wouldn't expect a CD not to play in your CD player just because its not Sony, for example. Digital music should be no different. Digital music should be universally playable on all devices.

Once again, in a few years time there will be a universal DRM standard and we will laugh at the current state of affairs we have today.

Regional coding on a DVD is a waste of time, its easy to pick up a DVD player that is changable to region free.

I have DVDs from the UK.. I'm not buying the same ones again in Canada - some aren't even available.
Stella,

I can understand and respect your CD to CD player analogy, but I still disagree that digital music is the same and should be playable on all devices. For non-iPod owners, there is nothing stopping them from buying digital music for sources other than iTunes. If you have a Sandisk player, buy your music from a WMA store. If you have an iPod, buy it from iTunes. If you have both, burn a disk and re-import (no one will tell on you).

The way I see it being reported now is that Apple (and others) will be required to open up their DRM schemes. This has the potential of opening pandora's box. Will France attack Microsoft into opening up their Office file formats so that other applications can work seamlessly with Office files? Will the movie studios have to disable their Region coding on DVDs? All I can see is that companies will pull out of France alltogether rather than dealing with the politcial nonsense.

ft

[Stella]

I really don't understand why you think Digital music should be treated separately. I'm trying to understand, but alas, I can't.

Why should people be restricted to a certain music store due to the music player owned? Burning / re-ripping is time consuming and leads to poorer quality music. Why should anyone have to go through this?

The music on the "WMA store" ( insert favourite store here! ) may not be available on iTMS, and vice versa. Music Stores should be just like any other store - I can pick where I buy my music from with no restriction.

I don't like regioning on DVDs, but it is very easy to get around - you can buy a DVD player that will play everything ( with cracking ). The 'have to buy another' probably won't work with everyone. In an ideal world there would be no regions - its an opportunity to charge more in certain parts of the world.

Stella,

I can understand and respect your CD to CD player analogy, but I still disagree that digital music is the same and should be playable on all devices. For non-iPod owners, there is nothing stopping them from buying digital music for sources other than iTunes. If you have a Sandisk player, buy your music from a WMA store. If you have an iPod, buy it from iTunes. If you have both, burn a disk and re-import (no one will tell on you).

The way I see it being reported now is that Apple (and others) will be required to open up their DRM schemes. This has the potential of opening pandora's box. Will France attack Microsoft into opening up their Office file formats so that other applications can work seamlessly with Office files? Will the movie studios have to disable their Region coding on DVDs? All I can see is that companies will pull out of France alltogether rather than dealing with the politcial nonsense.

ft

[clayj]

Unfortunetly, Apple will probably withdraw from France. We need this law in the US to force Apple to accept it. Fat chance with the RIAA around...If the French government does this, Apple should absolutely withdraw the iTunes Music Store from France. These other companies are clearly using the government to force a market leader to share what it's worked so hard for, and I think it's BS.

Of course, the same thing happened here with a little company called Microsoft... and I hated it then, too. The naiveté of Apple fans is slowly being washed away as they learn what it's like to have a near-monopoly on a particular market.

[whooleytoo]

Of course, the same thing happened here with a little company called Microsoft... and I hated it then, too. The naiveté of Apple fans is slowly being washed away as they learn what it's like to have a near-monopoly on a particular market.

Yes, having a monopoly is great. For Apple. (or Microsoft or..)

It's bad for competition, which is bad news for the consumer. That's why I'm very much in favour of this French bill, and hope this is just the start.

[ftaok]

I really don't understand why you think Digital music should be treated separately. I'm trying to understand, but alas, I can't.

Why should people be restricted to a certain music store due to the music player owned? Burning / re-ripping is time consuming and leads to poorer quality music. Why should anyone have to go through this?

The music on the "WMA store" ( insert favourite store here! ) may not be available on iTMS, and vice versa. Music Stores should be just like any other store - I can pick where I buy my music from with no restriction.

I don't like regioning on DVDs, but it is very easy to get around - you can buy a DVD player that will play everything ( with cracking ). The 'have to buy another' probably won't work with everyone. In an ideal world there would be no regions - its an opportunity to charge more in certain parts of the world.Stella,

My position on this is that digital music should be treated separately only in the scope that governments should not determine what companies do with their own DRM. Do I like DRM? Of course not, but it doesn't really affect my situation. If the law were to allow for bypassing of the DRM (a la Hymn), then that would be OK to me.

The issue here is that consumers are given a choice to buy or not to buy. No one is forcing the DRM onto anyone. If one chooses to buy an iPod and music from the iTMS, then so be it. No one forced it on him.

As for music being available on one store over another. Of course iTMS will have selection gaps with another WMA store. That goes without saying. If your store of choice doesn't have the selection, then buy it on a CD. No one has a right (in my mind anyway) to an endless selection of music. I mean, where does it end? Will France force the Beatles to open their catalog of music to the online stores?

Anyways, that is my viewpoint. Hopefully, it will help you understand where I'm coming from.

Oh, with regards to the DVD thing. I hate region coding as much as the next guy (although I do understand why they incoporate it). You solution of buying a region free player is slightly flawed. Suppose I have a nice HD-upconverting DVD player connected to my HDTV. If I want to watch a movie from Europe, I'm going to have to buy a region-free player (that probably doesn't upconvert, doesn't connect to my HDTV) that will have inferior quality to my primary DVD player. Kinda sounds like the loss of quality with the burn/rip method.

ft

[Stella]

I understand your point more, thanks.



Stella,

My position on this is that digital music should be treated separately only in the scope that governments should not determine what companies do with their own DRM. Do I like DRM? Of course not, but it doesn't really affect my situation. If the law were to allow for bypassing of the DRM (a la Hymn), then that would be OK to me.

The issue here is that consumers are given a choice to buy or not to buy. No one is forcing the DRM onto anyone. If one chooses to buy an iPod and music from the iTMS, then so be it. No one forced it on him.

As for music being available on one store over another. Of course iTMS will have selection gaps with another WMA store. That goes without saying. If your store of choice doesn't have the selection, then buy it on a CD. No one has a right (in my mind anyway) to an endless selection of music. I mean, where does it end? Will France force the Beatles to open their catalog of music to the online stores?

Anyways, that is my viewpoint. Hopefully, it will help you understand where I'm coming from.

Oh, with regards to the DVD thing. I hate region coding as much as the next guy (although I do understand why they incoporate it). You solution of buying a region free player is slightly flawed. Suppose I have a nice HD-upconverting DVD player connected to my HDTV. If I want to watch a movie from Europe, I'm going to have to buy a region-free player (that probably doesn't upconvert, doesn't connect to my HDTV) that will have inferior quality to my primary DVD player. Kinda sounds like the loss of quality with the burn/rip method.

ft

[Stella]

Apple withdraws, and other online music stores take advantage - the others will still be bound under this law to share their DRM ( Sony, microsoft ).

This isn't specifically targetted to just Apple, its all companies.

All online music stores will have to be withdrawn for the French law to be rendered pointless.

If the French government does this, Apple should absolutely withdraw the iTunes Music Store from France. These other companies are clearly using the government to force a market leader to share what it's worked so hard for, and I think it's BS.

Of course, the same thing happened here with a little company called Microsoft... and I hated it then, too. The naiveté of Apple fans is slowly being washed away as they learn what it's like to have a near-monopoly on a particular market.

[jermsmingy]

Apple should drop the iTunes Music Store in France if this law passes. All the other companies will stay and be forced to allow their music to be converted into a format that works with the iPod. Since we all know apple makes more money from the iPod than the Store. (The store makes a profit, but Apple has never specified how much). Apple will still sell iPods and the other music stores will be selling music that works with the ipod.

[MacNut]

The law will fail and heres why, Apple doesn't want to open iTunes and Microsoft doesn't want to give more fire to the iPod, everyone will pull out of France rather then open up the rights and the only people that will lose are the French.

[dylanemcgregor]

I'm not weighing into heavily into this discussion with what should or should not be a law. As a consumer I long ago decided that I would not buy any music that is tied to a device that is only made by a single manufacturer, which is a choice I made, which doesn't necessarily mean this should be a law that forces this.

However, I haven't seen anyone mention the concept of product "tying" which I think is relevant and gives some precedent for regulation. Apple can be accused of trying to use their current dominace in MP3 players along with the ITMS to lock people into buying Apple branded music players in the future. If I've spent $1000 on music in the ITMS that can only be played on an Apple player, I will have a strong incentive to continue to purchase Apple players in the future.

Tying by itself is not illegal, but it is potentially illegal if the company has "market power" in the given product, which a reasonable argument can be made that Apple has.

FWIW

-Dylan

[PeteyKohut]

Don't be so harsh. They make good looking women, too, last I looked.:p

EDIT: Not that they "manufacture" women or anything like that...I mean, I'm not trying to objectify wonderful human beings...oh, never mind.

That is...when they shave their pits.

[PeteyKohut]

You know....I hate this whole "let's get monopolies" thing. It says to companies, you are too good. And your being such as sharp business, and marketing your item properly, and selling it well, we are going to punish you. If you hate that MS Windoze comes prebundled with Media Player, then don't use it! Use OS X or Linux. That's what I do. I knew about the protected iTunes files before I bought my iPod. I could have used another player and other software, but I said, NO! I like Apple's solution. If you don't like it, there are other solutions out there. USE THOSE!

[jacobj]

I have been giving this some thought, especially in regard to Apple's response to the proposed law. They fear that by ensuring that DRM protected media can be converted to an open format will result in greater piracy.

I do not believe this to be true. In reality most of us here could happily download music from peer-to-peer networks if we wanted to. Our decision to buy the music from an online service stems from our sense of fair play and our desire to actually own the copy.

Apple's statement is therefore a blatant fallacy based on their fear that unlocking the iPods DRM would open up the market to alternative media players and online stores.

There is a discussion here regarding monopolies which I find interesting. Monopolies are prevented for numerous reasons and it is the spirit of the law that is important.

An anti-monopoly ruling is not a punishment for a company doing too well, it is a ruling preventing that company from taking actions that lock out competitors. Apple's DRM does exactly that. Apple were the first to successfully bring a online music store to the market which led to greater iPod sales which increased the market share of the online store which increased the demand for the iPod. This carries on today and is now at the point that no other competitor can get into either the MP3 player or online music store service. The reason that they cannot do so is because starting a service at the size the iTunes music store was when it first emerged is no longer good enough to make a difference.

Therefore Apple can continue to dominate without threat from any competitor and therefore they are a monopoly. Bringing in an anti-DRM law means that Apple can only continue to dominate the market by being exactly what they were when they started, ingenious and affordable. The law is not preventing Apple from being dominant, nor is it preventing them from being ingenious and affordable, it is however stopping them from closing down the competition and that can only be good.

[Digitalclips]

To me this isn't about music or digital protection it is about Apple Computer. I want them to remain strong. Apple should simply remove iTunes France but allow the French people to buy via another Euro based web site. Apple must not give an inch in protecting their turf or we will see the same thing happen as happened to the Apple Macintosh GUI when that was allowed into the hands of Microsoft back when Apple ruled the personal computer market. It would take no time at all for Apple's lead to vanish in a sea of boring, cheap products running a Microsoft interface. I for one like seeing Apple the dominant player. They do not let their monopoly position hold back innovation as is the case now with the PC world and Microsoft.

[Sunrunner]

Yes, having a monopoly is great. For Apple. (or Microsoft or..)

It's bad for competition, which is bad news for the consumer. That's why I'm very much in favour of this French bill, and hope this is just the start.



Your supporting idealistic liberalism and free-everything without regard for viable buisness models and *sane* IP protections. The reality is simple, if you dont want in on Apples strategy DONT BUY FROM THEM. It is an OPT IN, not something forced on the masses. That sort of liberalism and socalist crap run-amok is exactly the reason France is going to implode AGAIN in the near future. Lazy people want everything for free.

[Sunrunner]

The law will fail and heres why, Apple doesn't want to open iTunes and Microsoft doesn't want to give more fire to the iPod, everyone will pull out of France rather then open up the rights and the only people that will lose are the French.

You've got it exactly right

[ftaok]

I've just realized something.

The French legislators are going about it in the wrong way. Instead of forcing Apple (and others) to open up their DRM, why not force the record companies to drop the requirement for DRM altogether. That way, no one is locked into anything.

Piracy won't be a concern since part of the bill is to heavily prosecute pirates.

Seriously, this whole thing is out of control.