Do you believe in God?

[iJon]

I think I remember reading a forum like this on some other site, may have been SpyMac, who knows though. But i have found that there are many different responses to this question and they are quite interesting to read and talk about. My answer the question is "yes". what about you guys?

iJon

[dricci]

before the religion wars start, I'll answer yes, and quietly leave using the front exits for easier access to the parking lot ;)

[Wes]

Yes, I believe there is God. It's just too hard for my little brain to think about how the universe just spawned without influence from something greater. Btw, I am 0% religious, this is what I have thought up after thinking about it.

I too, will make a quick get-away before schem0 gets here and all hell breaks loose.

[leghorn]

Yes.
But as more of a co-existing consciousness than an ego (per religion).
Is that obtuse enough?

[blogo]

No.
You could make a poll out of this.

[peterjhill]

14 years of church 3 times a week, twice on sunday, once on wednesday, I once calculated that it would add up to about 200 days in church.

No I don't believe in god, sorry

[AmbitiousLemon]

no

[3777]

For all you people who don't believe in God, I am not sure exactly what is out there or what happens when you die, but there is definitely something more then this. I am not really religious in terms of going to church every Sunday or a big believer in organized religion & things like that............but......... my best friend died at 21 after a long battle with cancer, and right about the time I was at my lowest, and didn't believe in anything, a series of very strange events happened to me ........& it was just about the 2 year mark of his death.......... I don't know what happens after this world, but I am now 100% sure there is more to it then just what we see here.....

[WinterMute]

I'm reminded of the line "If god wanted us to believe in him, he'd exist"

There is no god, just try to get your head round billions upon billions of years of random events from the cosmic to the sub atomic, life is no big deal, it's just another random variation, now, what we do with our self awareness, there's a different story.

If you need the support of a belief in god, fine, I find I do not, I used to, but various events in my life made me question installed beliefs from my childhood, and once questioned in the light of adult reason and logic I decided there was no god.

The continued arguments and wars that are continually fought over this question only serve to strengthen my belief. God, Allah, Buddah, all part of the same support system, it's big business for those in power, just remember that religeon and god are almost mutually exclusive.

You want to believe in god, feel free, talk to me about it, evangelise if you must. I know I am alone in cosmos that cares nothing for me and mine, and that's just fine.

[ibjoshua]

No. Count me out.

I like the 'randomness' view of the world. I like the patterns and coincidences that we impose on the natural world. For me, it just is.

i_b_joshua

[edesignuk]

Nope! :cool:

[iAlan]

Many cultures have their own form of 'religion'.
Honestly, I don't know. I think there is something greater, but what that is, I don't know. I do not think we are alone, and i don't mean in an X-Files kind of way. Some may call it 'God', some call it 'fate' and others something else. I just think there has to be more.

'Gods' have started more wars than stopped them - religion is the greatest instigator of conflict - this is the human way of justifying our actions - if people really beleived in an all mighty force, I am sure they wouldn7t want to piss him/her off.

[King Cobra]

I don't either.

I won't argue with anybody's opinions, but I feel if you need to turn to someone, whether you are alone or not, it's yourself.

[job]

I do.

I believe that there is a God.

And I'm getting out of here before the religious/existential debates start.

[Dont Hurt Me]

I am not big on religion for i believe they are all man made and therefore screwed up in one way or another! I also believe that a very lot of humans need religion so they dont get lost sort of speak.Now with that said look at all the universe and everything that makes it up!How can you not be in total awe!For us to say it all just happened comes from our ignorance.Yes i believe in God!And yes there is probably a lot more going on then we can fathom or see or detect!The big bang was just another of his mighty strokes!

[medea]

no I do not belive in a God, but I am not going to decry that there is no God either because I do not know that. And if I were to belive in the "christian" God I would need more "proof" than the Bible.

[beez7777]

At the moment, i am not sure. I was raised a catholic for 15 years and attend a catholic school, but for the past few months or so i have been questioning what i was taught. I think there has to be some higher form of force or energy, it's hard to believe that everything was a coincidence. Do i believe in a physical heaven or hell? no. i think that these are both internal states of being that are achieved throughout your life based on the decisions you make. as for the origional question, i honestly do not now right now.

[Sun Baked]

In the beginning, before bandwidth, there was nothingness. Out of that endless void God and His heavenly host created...Arpanet, and it was good. But the scientific, military and computer angels Who dwelled in Arpanet were lonely, so They brought forth Browser, and the Web was born. It, too, was good and the children of the internet lived in peace and harmony and were fruitful and multiplied, but God warned His people not to eat of the forbidden fruit of commercialism. Alas, they disobeyed and soon barbarians drove the children of the internet out of Paradise. God, in His wrath, turned away from His people and condemned them to wander in the digital wilderness, but from time to time He will suddenly appear in mailing lists, chat rooms and discussion forums to remind us sinners that we could be saved if only we would hearken unto Him.

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/assets/God.jpg

[hobie]

Originally posted by 3777
For all you people who don't believe in God, I am not sure exactly what is out there or what happens when you die, but there is definitely something more then this. I am not really religious in terms of going to church every Sunday or a big believer in organized religion & things like that............but......... my best friend died at 21 after a long battle with cancer, and right about the time I was at my lowest, and didn't believe in anything, a series of very strange events happened to me ........& it was just about the 2 year mark of his death.......... I don't know what happens after this world, but I am now 100% sure there is more to it then just what we see here.....

I once had a similar situation:
I good friend of mine died at the age of 19. The autopsy didn't reveal anything. No drug and alcohol abuse, no blood clumps, no heart attack, no nothing! He just fell dead on a sunny easter sunday afternoon, between his friends! And nobody could do anything. He was top fit, and yet he died all of a sudden. At his funeral I had the chance to have a last look at him. And it was disturbing to look at a young boy, lying dead in front of you without a reason!

Now what did it teach me?!? That there must be a god who gives live and takes it away again. For me it's impossible to not believe in God.

But if anybody will ever deliver the proof that there's really no god at all, I will change my view instantly! Fortunately nobody can ever deliver that proof :)

[funkywhat2]

Can't say that I do. But for those of you who think that without a God, nothing could have happened, I ask you: Where did God come from?

[GeneR]

Yep. I believe in God. I remember years ago when I felt differently. I was angry and at one point said, "You know, the only way you'd get me to go to church is if I ended up working there..."

Sure, enough. That's what happened. But that didn't convince me that He existed. Coming from a more scientific point of view, I thought more in terms of humanistic viewpoints of the world. But even that did not wash.

What changed me was meeting people of different religions these last twelve years has. Also meeting those people into the more esoteric arts -- people into New Agy stuff and some truly dark stuff. A lot of pretty scarey stuff out there. Anyway, I'm sure I'll end up writing a screenplay about it at some point.

Do I believe in God? Yep. I think I've been blessed with enough facts to turn this ultra stubborn mind around. And then some.



:D

[MrMacMan]

Yes, there is a higher being, but it didn't create everything, it created the people and animals on this planet.

ALLAH! ;) + :rolleyes: (Not meaning to dis islamic people)

[iJon]

Originally posted by hobie


But if anybody will ever deliver the proof that there's really no god at all, I will change my view instantly! Fortunately nobody can ever deliver that proof :)
thats really how i feel. i mean even scientists today cant even think of anything that would make more sense than the bible or something that would have a better chance. We have more docementation on Jesus than George Washington. As for God, "if he wanted us to believe he would show himself". he did, he was in a physical form called Jesus. I think I became christian just because i was scared s***less of where i was gonna go when i die. then i started learning more about god and the bible. I just feel that everything around us couldnt just happen for a molucule or something floating in space and the bible i feel just couldnt just be a book from generation and generations ago from the middle east and some guy just decided to write it.

iJon

[vniow]

I don't know about 'God' per say, but I do believe in something greater than ourselves that's more than the sum of our parts whether it be actual or just inside our heads, it's still real to me.

[Backtothemac]

Waterminute, I will pray for you. I don't know what happened that made you so bitter.

I can say this. I buried my mother when I was 15. She had a astrocytoma (sp) and a gleoblastoma(sp) on her brain. The astro was in opperable, and there was nothing that they could do. That woman, never, not one time said why me. She accepted what was happening to her even though she was leaving behind her 15 year old son. She told me to never question her death. That God needed her, or she had done her work here. Her time was over. She accepted her fate on this planet. Since she died, there have been numerous things that have happened to me that I cannot explain, that have no logical explanation.

Not to give up much info, so I wil give a slight example. In 1988 I was in a car wreck. A drunk driver hit me head on at over 65 miles an hour. My skid marks were 10feet long, and his did not exist. He crossed the middle of the road. He had a broken back, two broken arms. A broken pelvis, and nearly died. The motor of my car was sitting in the passenger seat next to me. I broke the stearing column, and the stearing wheel. The frame on my car was bent in 28 different places. I did not have a scratch on my body.

The cops could not believe I was alive. I was in a Dodge Daytona. Not known for safety.

Anyway, I pray for anyone that can look up and night, at the vastness of the universe and think that there is not a creator that has given life to the universe. I believe in Christ, that is my path. I don't care what religion you are, but open your heart and mind, and let God come into your life.

Now, I leave before people start flaming me as some right wing republican ;)

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by iJon

thats really how i feel. i mean even scientists today cant even think of anything that would make more sense than the bible or something that would have a better chance. We have more docementation on Jesus than George Washington. As for God, "if he wanted us to believe he would show himself". he did, he was in a physical form called Jesus. I think I became christian just because i was scared s***less of where i was gonna go when i die. then i started learning more about god and the bible. I just feel that everything around us couldnt just happen for a molucule or something floating in space and the bible i feel just couldnt just be a book from generation and generations ago from the middle east and some guy just decided to write it.

iJon

The only thing that remotely makes me think there might be an after-life is the Law which states: "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it can, however, change states".

Given that we are beings that require energy, where does it go on death? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that it's an end of consciousness, my personality will not survive my death, although maybe and I really do mean MAYBE, part of my energy will change to something else.

Simply because one can't explain everything is no excuse to attribute the unknown to god, why not Santa Clause or Microsoft;)

I too suffered personal loss, 12 years ago my first wife died of a brain tumor within 10 days of falling ill, I watched her fade away, no dramatics, she just stopped. I wanted to believe, I really needed to believe, but nothing happened, no strange occourances, no veiled signs.

I realised if I was to make anything from my life it was up to me, so I did, no motivational speeches here, it was truly "root, hog or die" and I wasn't ready to give up.

We live in a hostile universe, we exist at all by chance, everything is trying to kill us, if I can't rely on my own strength I fail, Amanda died because her body failed her, not her conciousness or her personality.

I have a beautiful family now, (every man thinks his family beautiful) and I remember Mandy with great happiness, but it's MY family and MY memory and when its gone, its gone.

[howard]

Originally posted by iJon

We have more docementation on Jesus than George Washington.

iJon

...but there is no documentation that jesus actually wrote himself..its all other people writing about him.

no i don't believe in god either. what i do know is that people created religion, and god. which god is right? the one that was created to sacrafice for so the river flooded in time to make the land furitle again? or the one that comes as a savior to us all? god was created to give hope to people about a subject that they have no control over. i believe there is no heaven or hell, you just cease to exist, and some people have a very hard time dealing with that, so they pull god over there eyes and think of a nice heaven when they die.

as a child i went to church all the time..i even went to a catholic high school.....why? because i wanted to deteremine if there was a god or not, and after all the teachings and experiences i've come to my conclusion. I don't think its wrong for people to believe in god and i don't have anything against religious people. i just don't believe in it.

[cr2sh]

I don't believe in a God, but I've always believed that there was this force, that would one day come back and kick my ass. For everything I've done wrong, for everyone I've hurt, I've always felt that there would eventually be a price to pay for it...
I've always said that if there is a God, that'd he'd bring the hammer down hard. (My God is a vengeful god) It'd be a truely savage burn, at the worst time possible. I'm talking about killing my wife when I'm 45 type of burn... giving me cancer right after I graduate college... something placed perfectly, just to **** me, hard.
I know it's paranoid... but, whenevr something really bad happens, I always think 'okay, this is it...'

[diorio]

A higher being yes. Should there be organized religion? No. Religion causes many more problems than it solves.

[cr2sh]

<offtopic>
diorio, i really like your avatar, but i think is could use a little work. the flare sequence is just off...
:cool:
</offtopic>

[diorio]

Originally posted by cr2sh
<offtopic>
diorio, i really like your avatar, but i think is could use a little work. the flare sequence is just off...
:cool:
</offtopic>

I'll have a new one shortly. Plus, I'm still experimenting with image ready, so bear with me.:)

[idkew]

well, yes, there is a god. there HAS to be a god. Something beyond laws and rules started this universe. Something can not come from nothing, a supreme being must start it.

But, that is where my god stops. it started the big bang or whatever, and has done absolutely NOTHING since then. Religion is the worst thing man has created. Worse than the atom bomb, which has killed few in comparison to ugly religion.

When more nukes are used again, i guarentee the deepest reason for the use is religion.

There is a god, but it does nothing.

[jaykk]

No, I think the concept of God is created by man. Dont undermine human beings power. There is concept of this in Hinduism - 'That Thou Art" - means, whatever ur seeking is inside of you, look nowhere else.

[jelloshotsrule]

yes i do

[howard]

Originally posted by idkew
well, yes, there is a god. there HAS to be a god. Something beyond laws and rules started this universe. Something can not come from nothing, a supreme being must start it.


this is just using god to explain something that we don't know anything about. Its no proof of god at all.

its like the whole earth is flat thing...we just didn't know so we believed in something else.

[3777]

Originally posted by WinterMute


The only thing that remotely makes me think there might be an after-life is the Law which states: "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it can, however, change states".

Given that we are beings that require energy, where does it go on death? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that it's an end of consciousness, my personality will not survive my death, although maybe and I really do mean MAYBE, part of my energy will change to something else.

Simply because one can't explain everything is no excuse to attribute the unknown to god, why not Santa Clause or Microsoft;)

I too suffered personal loss, 12 years ago my first wife died of a brain tumor within 10 days of falling ill, I watched her fade away, no dramatics, she just stopped. I wanted to believe, I really needed to believe, but nothing happened, no strange occourances, no veiled signs.

I realised if I was to make anything from my life it was up to me, so I did, no motivational speeches here, it was truly "root, hog or die" and I wasn't ready to give up.

We live in a hostile universe, we exist at all by chance, everything is trying to kill us, if I can't rely on my own strength I fail, Amanda died because her body failed her, not her conciousness or her personality.

I have a beautiful family now, (every man thinks his family beautiful) and I remember Mandy with great happiness, but it's MY family and MY memory and when its gone, its gone.

I would reconsider if I were you. If anything is to happen it will be when you least expect it. Always notice the little things too. My friend died of a brain tumor as well.

[vniow]

Originally posted by howard
its like the whole earth is flat thing...we just didn't know so we believed in something else.


Not entirely true, many ancient people knew that the earth was round, a very simple way to tell is watch a ship come over the horizon, you'll see the top of the mast first, then the rest of it, then the bow of the ship and so on and so on, it's a myth that people thought that the earth was flat, hell, the Greeks measured the circumfrence of the earth within a few miles, the whole earth is flat thing started with a children's tale, ancient people weren't stupid.



Now as for the god thing, it's an entirely personal journey that you and only you can take, nobody can really sway you one way of the other unless you choose to go that way yourself, I believe in a higher being because I've felt it and it's my belief that one exists and while some people may believe that it doesn't, fine, that won't dent mine at all nor will my beliefs dent theirs it's all really up to the individual.

[job]

"If god had a face, what would it look like and would you want to see, if seeing meant that you would have to believe in things like Heaven and Jesus and the Saints..?"

Does one really have to "see" in order to believe?

[voicegy]

Originally posted by vniow


Not entirely true, many ancient people knew that the earth was round, a very simple way to tell is watch a ship come over the horizon, you'll see the top of the mast first, then the rest of it, then the bow of the ship and so on and so on, it's a myth that people thought that the earth was flat, hell, the Greeks measured the circumfrence of the earth within a few miles, the whole earth is flat thing started with a children's tale, ancient people weren't stupid.

Many modern people still hold to the "myth":
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

Originally posted by vniow

Now as for the god thing, it's an entirely personal journey that you and only you can take, nobody can really sway you one way of the other unless you choose to go that way yourself, I believe in a higher being because I've felt it and it's my belief that one exists and while some people may believe that it doesn't, fine, that won't dent mine at all nor will my beliefs dent theirs it's all really up to the individual.

Couldn't agree more. That's why I believe in what is commonly referred to as "God".

[vniow]

Originally posted by voicegy


Many modern people still hold to the "myth":
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm




Woah, that's almost scary!http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/eek21.gif

[JupiterZen]

Originally posted by iJon
what about you guys?iJon


"There is no God but man" - Aleister Crowley

[iJon]

Originally posted by voicegy


Many modern people still hold to the "myth":
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm



Couldn't agree more. That's why I believe in what is commonly referred to as "God".
these people are just as strange as the cloniad people. "Once again, picture in your mind a round world. Now imagine that there are two people on this world, one at each pole. For the person at the top of the world, (the North Pole), gravity is pulling him down, towards the South Pole. But for the person at the South Pole, shouldn't gravity pull him down as well? What keeps our person at the South Pole from falling completely off the face of the "globe"?" isnt the earths gravity in the center, im not physics expert i think im right, arent i?

iJon

[Megaquad]

Yup I believe there is god and afterlife..
And so many strange things happend to me heh.. how can I not to believe?
Just study the god as he was described in bible and other books through saints etc. and you will see the "system" work..

Its like Matrix actualy, if you just compare some situations you'll find it amazing..

[idkew]

Originally posted by howard


this is just using god to explain something that we don't know anything about. Its no proof of god at all.

its like the whole earth is flat thing...we just didn't know so we believed in something else.

go read some philosophy and tell me what you believe.

anyway- it is not that we don't know anything about it. we "know" there is a world. (well, maybe).

this world had to begin somehow. something had to begin what began the world and so on to infinity. unless you think that there is such thing as an infinite chain of causations, there has to be an ultimate cause - a god.

there is the simple version, and like i said, go read some philosophy and you will understand what i mean.

[maluscanis]

Remember that there is no default worldview here; in other words, the atheistic opinion has to give a defense for its own view just as much as a theistic perspective would. I would like to say that the only thing that "truly" worries me about the atheistic worldview is the elimination of absolute (objective) morality...Philosophically, the atheistic perspective cannot give a complete answer for a higher morality...everything boils down to social conventions and the idea that things like murder are wrong because they are not in our best interest.

[Megaquad]

You can figure it all out by using logic.. why would god create humans if they wouldnt live in afterlife.. why would he create anarchy? why would he not want to be loved and worshipped? thats why i believe in bible and christianity
it is only logical religion.
disclaimer to avoid flame: this is only my opinion.. blah blah

[TonicAngel]

yeah I believe in God

[scem0]

no, I have no reason to believe in God, nor Shiva, nor tree spirits,
nor any other diety.

[krossfyter]

Yes I overwhelmingly, positively, absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt believe in the God of the Bible and Jesus has the only bridge between him and man. It took some serious faith for me to give my life to him but since then it doesnt take anymore faith for me to know its real. I'm in... i know whats up now. I can never go back. Booyah!

[Dont Hurt Me]

A lot of non believers, all i can say is just look at the orginization in the universe,galaxies,stars and all the laws that hold everything together from gravity,to the speed of light to the very molecules and atoms in our bodies and to just say it just happened all by itself is not logical. Even Einstine new there was a god !You dont get order from chaos.

[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
A lot of non believers, all i can say is just look at the orginization in the universe,galaxies,stars and all the laws that hold everything together from gravity,to the speed of light to the very molecules and atoms in our bodies and to just say it just happened all by itself is not logical. Even Einstine new there was a god !You dont get order from chaos.

i dont mind you trying to argue that there is a god. its just the nature of people who do to attack other people in this fashion, but get your facts straight (there are so few facts about all of this that it shouldn't be hard to stick to reality). Einstein was an atheist. This is abundantly clear from his writing. Darwin was also an atheist. Again it is very clear when you read his autobiography (the long passages attacking religion make it quite clear).

and as to why there are so many "non-believers" here, i would assume it has to do with the fact that this forum attracts people who are more educated than the average person, and education is inversely proportional to a belief in the supernatural.

[vniow]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
and as to why there are so many "non-believers" here, i would assume it has to do with the fact that this forum attracts people who are more educated than the average person, and education is inversely proportional to a belief in the supernatural.


So people who do believe in a god are somehow less educated than the people who don't?

That's rich.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/rolleyes.gif

[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by vniow



So people who do believe in a god are somehow less educated than the people who don't?

That's rich.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/rolleyes.gif

fact is that belief in the supernatural decreases as education increases. this is not to say people who believe in god are less intelligent or less educated, but only that on average the more educated a person is the less likely they are to believe in supernatural forces such as a god.

[King Cobra]

Ms. V, I was thinking the same thing. But AL does mention that Macrumors has a lot of intelligent individuals, compared to individuals registered to other boards. So this statement may only be true with the slogan "Think Different".

BTW: AL, do you think there is or isn't? :rolleyes:

[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by King Cobra
Ms. V, I was thinking the same thing. But AL does mention that Macrumors has a lot of intelligent individuals, compared to individuals registered to other boards. So this statement may only be true with the slogan "Think Different".

actually i made no such claim. although people have claimed that mac users generally have more education than pc users, i was not addressing this. I only meant that people who own computers, browse the internet, and participate in online communities are more likely to have pursued a higher education than those who are not on the net. also as i said before i made no claims about the intelligence of the individuals in question, only their level of education.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
Darwin was also an atheist. Again it is very clear when you read his autobiography (the long passages attacking religion make it quite clear).


i'm not about to argue whether darwin was or wasn't an atheist, as i've never read anything extensive about him. however, let's just make it clear that attacking "religion" is different than attacking "god".

many many people who believe in god would argue against religion, or at least religion in many forms which it takes these days.

[cosmicsoftceo]

I don't know how many people have seen the movie "The Count of Monte Cristo", but it has a very relevant portion.

At one point, the main character is near death in the prison he has been in for years. His only friend is an old priest, also locked away. The priest is telling him of how God will look after him. The young man says that he doesn't believe in God.

The priest then smiles and says, "It doesn't matter. He believes in you."

I think that's a great way of putting it.

As for the assumptions being made that education is inversely related to religiousness, I find that quite ridiculous.

First, we have so little scientific knowledge today, I don't think we can draw conclusions from it. We still don't know for certain what the core of our own planet is made of--scientists are still debating it. We haven't flown to the moon--a relatively miniscule distance away--in 20 years. Heck, we can't even control disease yet.

Second, there were plenty of educated persons that were religious. Someone stated correctly that Einstein appeared in his writings to be atheist. But what Einstein said was that the more he studied the universe, the more he was convinced there was a higher power. It wasn't when he was writing, but late in his life when he was finally stumped by I believe it was string theory that he said that.

Also, I think the person that brought out the "order out of chaos" argument was right on. It's a primary rule of physics that order doesn't come out of chaos, and there is no reason for even a cell to form. For us to form from the relative chaos of early Earth, that primary law of physics would have to run backward.

I hope I haven't insulted anyone and that this adds to this discussion.

[howard]

Originally posted by idkew


go read some philosophy and tell me what you believe.

anyway- it is not that we don't know anything about it. we "know" there is a world. (well, maybe).

this world had to begin somehow. something had to begin what began the world and so on to infinity. unless you think that there is such thing as an infinite chain of causations, there has to be an ultimate cause - a god.

there is the simple version, and like i said, go read some philosophy and you will understand what i mean.

what philosphy are you suggesting i read? i do love reading philosphy but more so on the individual rather that religion or society.

yes the world had to begin somehow, and the truth is nobody knows...it could have been anything, we have no idea, but because we don't know, a lot of people, religious people will just stick god on that one...its like not knowing how babies are born, a child raised by religious parents might think god did it. they don't know the actually biological reasons, and we don't know the biological/phsyicall/chemical reasons for the beginning of earth

[mymemory]

I do believe in God.

To go to church doesn't mean ANYTHING. I do not go to church and I'm sure I'm more a hand of God than most of the people that go to church.

God is every where and he helped me big time!!!!

Back in december tha National Guard arrest me protesting against the goverment. I just said "God take care of me" and started to pray. The guards tearted me better than I was treated in my girld friend's house. They took another guy after me and beat him and hurted him very bad, they kick him on the flor, they torture hime for about and hour. That could be me.

I didn't go out from that telling people how good I was manipulating National Guards, I told my friend God was there not making hummans treat bad each other. The other guy got his lesson, he didn't learn anything from that. That guy told me his lawyer was the best and his lawyer was the worst and the guy didn't tell me information about my case just because he didn't care. That is another history but it is not the first time God is on my side.

And let me tell you I at list pray every night, every single one for the last 5 years.

[mymemory]

If you do not believe in God is because you haven't found the right tutor. God is every where and in so many forms.

When I was studiing 3D animation I was thinking how complex is to make a finger move and give it color and etc. When you are a 3D animator you are playing God, creating and enviroment and creatures. Just think about that. Whe do not need to be rendered or programed, we work by ourselves. Imagine what you would need to make a computer having personality and stuff.

[Roger1]

Yes I overwhelmingly, positively, absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt believe in the God of the Bible and Jesus has the only bridge between him and man.

That's how it was explained to me (the bridge concept). We are on one side, God is on the other, and Jesus in the middle.

BTW, someone in this forum mentioned more intellegent people have a lesser tendancy to believe in God.
The guy who started the church I go to has a Doctorate in biochemistry (or something like that), and just about every pastor has a Degree of one type or another.

[Macette]

i don't believe in god.

[scem0]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
A lot of non believers, all i can say is just look at the orginization in the universe,galaxies,stars and all the laws that hold everything together from gravity,to the speed of light to the very molecules and atoms in our bodies and to just say it just happened all by itself is not logical. Even Einstine new there was a god !You dont get order from chaos.

Your right, it didn't happen by itself, but why immediately point to
God? What makes you think that God made all the atoms, and
the universe? Why not the gods of other religions?

[dabirdwell]

http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/2803.html

[Shrek]

One's level of education has nothing to do with wether one believes in God or not. There are smart people that believe in God, like pastors for example; they are some of the smartest people I know.

I don't feel that it's how much you know that affects what you believe, but what you know. :)

[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by Shrek
One's level of education has nothing to do with wether one believes in God or not. There are smart people that believe in God, like pastors for example; they are some of the smartest people I know.

I don't feel that it's how much you know that affects what you believe, but what you know. :)

im afraid the facts dont agree with you. im nto arguing opinions here im telling you the facts. i didn't tell you there was or wasn't a god. i simply was referring to the statistics regarding who believes. simple demographics. if the facts rub you the wrong way i am sorry, but don't try to pretend they are wrong.

[krossfyter]

Too my knowledge God and relgion are seperate. I dont attribute any wrong done by relgion to God. Why becuase I beleive God to be good. I believe religion to be MAN made. Man is faliable which figures why religion has done wrong. Despite its wrongs it also has done good just like any other man made system. Now if we are going to talk about God and relgion can we at least operate with the law of seperates when such a discussion takes place.. just a little. They after all have different definitions. Now to those who dont care for organized relgion... do you all want disorganized religion? If neither then how is this possible? I dont care for religion in general. Its always attributed to negative aspects in life. However that will never disrupt my beleive in God because I understand the law of seperates in this. I guess to me relgion happens when God has left the building.













God
_ _P_
n.
God
A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
A very handsome man.
A powerful ruler or despot.



_re·li·gion
_ _P_ _
n.
Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

[wdlove]

I believe in God. Jesus Christ is my personal savior, He is in me and I am in him. Ask and it will be given unto you. Faith and belief in the next life makes life worth living. I feel that I have above average intelligence.

Our church if full of PhD's, MD's, lawyer's, & businessmen.

Being a Christinan is a very personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Just renewed that faith today with "The Lord's Supper."

[Shrek]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon

im afraid the facts dont agree with you. im nto arguing opinions here im telling you the facts. i didn't tell you there was or wasn't a god. i simply was referring to the statistics regarding who believes. simple demographics. if the facts rub you the wrong way i am sorry, but don't try to pretend they are wrong.

And what I'm saying is that compared to several decades ago, more and more and schools and colleges are becoming increasingly secular and moving away from teaching a religious or moral point of view and are teaching from more of a logical viewpoint. I mean think about it. Just decades ago there use to be morning prayer in the schools and the schools were run and taught under a strict moral code and the teaching of evolution was almost unheard of.

It is what the schools are teaching society that is pushing more and more people away from religion.

[ibjoshua]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
A lot of non believers, all i can say is just look at the orginization in the universe,galaxies,stars and all the laws that hold everything together from gravity,to the speed of light to the very molecules and atoms in our bodies and to just say it just happened all by itself is not logical. Even Einstine new there was a god !You dont get order from chaos. Is it really so hard to comprehend that order has developed despite chaos and despite 'god'.

I know virtually nothing about chaos theory but what I do know is that we don't know everything about anything. Knowledge is ever changing, few things in the 'natural' world surprise me - just as few things in the human world surprise me.

i_b_joshua

[dabirdwell]

Did nobody read the "Jesus was a pothead" update? There is building scholarly support for it...

[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by dabirdwell
Did nobody read the "Jesus was a pothead" update? There is building scholarly support for it...

no one cares

[MarksEvilTwin]

Removed

[idkew]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
A lot of non believers, all i can say is just look at the orginization in the universe,galaxies,stars and all the laws that hold everything together from gravity,to the speed of light to the very molecules and atoms in our bodies and to just say it just happened all by itself is not logical. Even Einstine new there was a god !You dont get order from chaos.

why is that not logical? in infinite randomness, order will eventually pop up. maybe this is the 1E999,999,999,999,999,999th time that the universe has come into existence.

you can absolutely, positively get order from chaos. however small the probability that this universe could randomly happen again, there is a possibility. all you need it that.

[MacFan25]

I believe in God. I go to church almost every Sunday. But, I would not call myself really religous.

[idkew]

Originally posted by howard


what philosphy are you suggesting i read? i do love reading philosphy but more so on the individual rather that religion or society.

yes the world had to begin somehow, and the truth is nobody knows...it could have been anything, we have no idea, but because we don't know, a lot of people, religious people will just stick god on that one...its like not knowing how babies are born, a child raised by religious parents might think god did it. they don't know the actually biological reasons, and we don't know the biological/phsyicall/chemical reasons for the beginning of earth

RECCOMENDED READING ON EXISTENCE/RELIGION:

Descartes' Meditations, Berkeley's Three Dialogues Between Hylas and Philonous, and Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion would be a great start. Only about 200 or 300 pages in all.

i am not attempting to say how the universe was formed, all i am saying it that there has to be a cause, and that cause must be a god.

[bousozoku]

Superior beings--yes, supreme beings--no.

As much as I have had "religious" experiences, I would not claim them to be part and parcel of one certain, omnipotent being.

I spent a lot of time, and became a member, in the Presbyterian church, but have also spent time with Baptists, Catholics, and Methodists.

I'm agreeable with any religion that doesn't harm people though.

[funkywhat2]

To suppliment:

If you do believe in God, or a supreme being, where did he/she/it come from?

[Shrek]

Originally posted by funkywhat2
To suppliment:

If you do believe in God, or a supreme being, where did he/she/it come from?

Good question! Why don't you ask God when you get to heaven, if you get to heaven. But let's not debate such undebatable topics. It's not worth it. It won't get anywhere.

[Zion Grail]

I believe in God. In fact, I'm quite certain "He" exists, though I'm also confident it isn't some big bearded dude in the sky. More or less, I see God as the nature of existence and nonexistence. A more... modern view (which, ironically, I decided to follow after talking to a Taoist friend).

Peace. :) http://http://tsfmb.sonicfoundation.org/mb/graemlins/peace.gif

[funkywhat2]

Originally posted by Shrek


Good question! Why don't you ask God when you get to heaven, if you get to heaven. But let's not debate such undebatable topics. It's not worth it. It won't get anywhere.

Sorry if you can't answer a question that would make your beliefs look all the more impossible.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by funkywhat2


Sorry if you can't answer a question that would make your beliefs look all the more impossible.

And neither could you. At least not be able to prove it. :p

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by funkywhat2


Sorry if you can't answer a question that would make your beliefs look all the more impossible.


one can debate it either way. makes for some great deep conversation. however in the end humans are faliable and finite. we may not hold the intellectual capacity to understand the answer to the question..... possibly mind you.


no matter what the answer is from a human perspective... it will NEVER shake my believe in the God of the Bible.



;)

[idkew]

Originally posted by krossfyter



one can debate it either way. makes for some great deep conversation. however in the end humans are faliable and finite. we may not hold the intellectual capacity to understand the answer to the question..... possibly mind you.


no matter what the answer is from a human perspective... it will NEVER shake my believe in the God of the Bible.



;)

actually god, by definition, can not be caused. even in polythesim, if you go back far enough in history, god just appeared, god can not be caused.

I also find it hard to debate about something that can not be logically proved.

oh- and i think that the god you call God it entirely possible, it could happen just as easily as a singly caused, randomly formed universe. i just see more reason that points towards my view than your view.

i do have to say, i am against almost all organized religion i know of though.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by idkew


actually god, by definition, can not be caused. even in polythesim, if you go back far enough in history, god just appeared, god can not be caused.

I also find it hard to debate about something that can not be logically proved.


hey im with you on that. thats usually how i respond to the cliche question previously posed. i was just getting ahead of the guy.. giving the "in the end" response.


however people on the other side do have good and respectible counters to this question... will i ever believe them... nah.


;)

[Phil Of Mac]

God's omnipotent, right? Well, I guess that proves he doesn't exist.

Can God create a rock so heavy even God can lift it? If yes, he cannot lift the rock, hence he is not omnipotent, hence he doesn't exist. If no, then he cannot create the rock, hence he is not omnipotent, hence he doesn't exist. Omnipotence and God are therefore impossible.

While you may claim that without God, ethics are more or less impossible or arbitrary, that's incorrect. For instance, using a theist form of ethics, God is good, and goodness is what God determines it is. What you end up with is arbitrary ethics depending on what you think this nonexistent God thing decrees. People have died in these arguments.

However, without God, the standard for ethics is human life. I won't go into detail here, but to say theist ethics are better than atheist ethics because atheist ethics are arbitrary are very much mistaken.

It's also interesting to note how God has become less and less significant over time. When humans knew nothing, gods were given credit for everything. Thor threw thunderbolts from the heavens, the fire gods caused volcanic eruptions, God created Man. Of course, when we investigated the universe we live in, we discovered that thunder and lightening was caused by static electicity in the air, volcanic eruptions were caused by geologic forces along fault lines, and that man evolved from lower mammals.

And it is absolutely true that more intelligence = less religion. Of course, there are some who don't consider the issue, but on a whole, religion tends to retard intellectual development. Sometimes, intellectual development can fight back and overcome religion. The reason is that religion is dogmatic and restricts your ability to think because religious dogma arbitrary chooses what the right answers are to any question. (There are, however less dogmatic or non-dogmatic religions, and they tend to have this effect less. That's the main reason that most intellectuals have historically been Jewish.)

Note that the apex of organized, dogmatic religion's power over society happened at such points as the Dark Ages, the Salem Witch Trials, the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran, and other dark and bloody points in history. Also note Martin Luther's statement that "To be a Christian, one must pluck out the eye of reason." Religion and dogma are anti-mind.

[idkew]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
God's omnipotent, right? Well, I guess that proves he doesn't exist.

Can God create a rock so heavy even God can lift it?...



You make some good arguments. I agree with them except for the omnipotent part. I can think of reasons why this is not a proof...

I also think you must mean liberal Judaism, not Hassidic Jews. (I can't spell...) Hasids, along with other Hewish sects do not preach non-dogmatic religion. Take a look at My Name is Asher Lev. It is a great example of a conservative Jewish mind.

[Phil Of Mac]

Yes, I do mean liberal Judaism. I got this information, by the way, by speaking with a Jewish friend. Rather interesting.

[Les Kern]

I'd have to say no.
Wait... okay, yes.
Well, hold on a sec... maybe.
I believe Jesus was a prophet, like Mohammed. That makes me pretty popular with my Christian friends. (Will the current administration smite me?) I guess I'm closer to Muslim, even being raised a Catholic. I remember clearly when I was recieving my Confirmation that what I was doing was hogwash.
I'd like to think there was, but most times I cannot. I say "most times" because there are plenty of occasions where, when I sit and think about the universe, that it makes no sense... it's existence, I mean. Sometimes you have to give in to the possibility that some force is at work. I'd like to believe that we are a part of a great whole, and our feeble minds will never be able to comprehend it.
Hey, if this post sounds rambling, it's because it matches my confusion on the whole issue.

[springscansing]

There is no way to prove there is or is not a god.

To say definitively there is no god anywhere in the universe on any plane of existance in any form means you presume yourself to be all knowing, which would in fact make you a god, and also, totally contradictory.

And to say there is definitely a god when there is no proof is no better.

Bottom line is, you can't say either way.

Agnosticism is the wave of the future damnit!

It takes a wise man to admit he has no idea what the hell is going on.

[iJon]

Originally posted by springscansing
There is no way to prove there is or is not a god.

To say definitively there is no god anywhere in the universe on any plane of existance in any form means you presume yourself to be all knowing, which would in fact make you a god, and also, totally contradictory.

And to say there is definitely a god when there is no proof is no better.

Bottom line is, you can't say either way.

Agnosticism is the wave of the future damnit!

It takes a wise man to admit he has no idea what the hell is going on.
your pretty much right. it is all based on faith. i made this thread so i can see reasons why people dont believe in him, and i can further my education on god and learn how to preach the word to people who dont believe. i didnt have any intentions on becoming macrumors preacher of the day. you guys have broughten up many good points that i would have no idea to defend my self against. this doesnt make me question my faith, just makes me realize i know so little. i kind of look at god as showing my mac. i really cant make a person switch, i just gotta show them they great things and let them swith on their own. although macs and god are not near alike, just something kind of similar to compare too. this has been an interesting thread and i thank you guys for sharing your opinions with me, wheter you believe or not.

iJon

[Zion Grail]

God, like everyone and everything else, is a game of definitions. If you reject my definition of a shotgun, I can blow your brains out and you still won't believe me. Therefore, before asking "Does God Exist?", we must first ask "Who is this 'God' guy, anyway?" So, let us define God as the very nature of existence, the very fact of creation, the very essence of the statement "stuff is." Ergo: As long as stuff is, so is God.

IMO, God is far from some big bearded shutout in the sky. That's just the human personification of "Him" - to make it easier to understand.

An important difference in arguing in God's existence.

[rainman::|:|]

Well, i was trying to avoid this topic, but had a couple so why not. Personally, i believe in almost a taoist god, that being an energy force (forgive me for oversimplifying) that flows through everything, but is not necessarily sentient. I personally believe in a kind of 'guide' that makes people interact on psychic levels totally outside of our awareness, and that the sum of everyone's psychic energy is 'god'. and i believe this force is tied to nature in a way that we are no longer.

how's that for dippy? i sound like a new-age fanatic. i'm technically a neopagan, being wiccan (i incorporate my belief in god into that), but i'm not all freaky about it.

as far as religions go... whew. my biggest problem with religion is that it tells you to accept everything it can't explain or prove as 'faith'. how do we know there is a god/jesus? faith. how do we know someone is listening to our prayers? faith. how do we know god wants us to carry out actions in his name? faith. it's just too iffy... faith, for me, is one thing, but not enough to bridge these gaps where reason completely fails.

plus, i view people's 'evangilism' and religion-spreading (sometimes annoyingly or even violently) as insecurity-- one feels more validated if they can get others to believe it, too.

pnw

[Phil Of Mac]

We need a definition of God before we determine whether or not he exists. "An omnipotent being" is the most popular definition now, and is the one that makes the most sense. Unfortunately, it makes God impossible.

[Zion Grail]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
Well, i was trying to avoid this topic, but had a couple so why not. Personally, i believe in almost a taoist god, that being an energy force (forgive me for oversimplifying) that flows through everything, but is not necessarily sentient. I personally believe in a kind of 'guide' that makes people interact on psychic levels totally outside of our awareness, and that the sum of everyone's psychic energy is 'god'. and i believe this force is tied to nature in a way that we are no longer.
pnw

That depends on the specific Taoist view, which can vary from person to person.

Rather, I favor the (also quite Taoist) idea that God is simply the "nature of exitence and nonexistence".

[voicegy]

While we can never be god of macrumors.com (Arn, noticed you are absent in this little thread, but perhaps I missed it? Probably best to just watch anyway!) you can believe in, and become, a Demi-god!

While you're thinking about it, why not scrape together a few bucks and buy a macrumors.com mug! Become a Demi-god today! You'll be glad you did!

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by Zion Grail


Rather, I favor the (also quite Taoist) idea that God is simply the "nature of exitence and nonexistence".

That's a useless semantic distinction. By that definition, God has to exist, but that is definitely NOT what is meant by "God".

Of course, the semantic problem with God is that no one has EVER observed it, for reasons that boil down to the fact that there is no God, and we can't come up with a concept for something we haven't observed.

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac


That's a useless semantic distinction. By that definition, God has to exist, but that is definitely NOT what is meant by "God".

That's not true and is definitely a western view of an eastern concept. Taoism is 99% philosophy and is very reserved in it's definitions of god. taoism is more of a lifestyle and ideal concept than a religion in the normal sense of the word, so you don't have to attack it like a normal religion...

we all get that there's no proof of god existing, i think you can let it go now...

pnw

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by paulwhannel


That's not true and is definitely a western view of an eastern concept. Taoism is 99% philosophy and is very reserved in it's definitions of god. taoism is more of a lifestyle and ideal concept than a religion in the normal sense of the word, so you don't have to attack it like a normal religion...

we all get that there's no proof of god existing, i think you can let it go now...

pnw

I'm fully aware of what Taoism is, and I know that their "definition of God" seems to indicate a meaningful concept, but that concept, strictly speaking, is not God. It's a semantic issue that I'm raising, but an important one. If this idea of God is so slippery that we can define him however we want, discussing its existence or nonexistence becomes futile.

[mc68k]

i believe in God. the biggest proof for me is creation. too complex to simply happen.

as for a personal relationship, i've never felt a concrete one. i go to church every Sunday. proof at my church is based on the Bible. as with any book, people can interpret it in different ways. as with any experience, people can interpret it in different ways.

'God' is a subjective, yes/no, clear-cut, faith based-decision. religion degrades into circular reasoning. i don't know why God can't be more objective.

[GeneR]

Fascinating...Even if you do not believe in God...

Most of us hold life as "sacred" and say as much and claim that it is of priceless value. And yet to hold something as "sacred" admits the existence of that/Him/Her who is Holy and capable of sanctification.

At the same time we condemn cloning as evil and a perversion but face the same basic question of life's value, but have not settled on a universally moral reason why it is evil.

And yet we also face the problem (if we do not accept the issue of life's value as sacred) as objectifying life itself, reducing it to the same level of that which is inanimate. If Life is without value means that there may not be any real meaning to life. So why live? Why let others live?

And thus, are our morality any different from sociopathic beliefs which reduce man to objects in the mind of the psychopath/sociopath?

I remember hearing that the reason why Jews in the Bible were frowned upon in the Bible when they counted their men because by reducing that which is sacred to a mere number, it is an offense in God's eyes because that which is sacred -- each man's soul -- is of priceless value as a child of God. Hence, the abominable acts of the Nazis are more reprehensible because it was an act of reducing human souls to mere objects through the use of serial numbers.

So, I am wondering, where do our moral arguments begin if we rule out sanctification and acceptance of a higher power?

:confused:

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by GeneR
Fascinating...Even if you do not believe in God...

Most of us hold life as "sacred" and say as much and claim that it is of priceless value. And yet to hold something as "sacred" admits the existence of that/Him/Her who is Holy and capable of sanctification.

At the same time we condemn cloning as evil and a perversion but face the same basic question of life's value, but have not settled on a universally moral reason why it is evil.

And yet we also face the problem (if we do not accept the issue of life's value as sacred) as objectifying life itself, reducing it to the same level of that which is inanimate. If Life is without value means that there may not be any real meaning to life. So why live? Why let others live?

And thus, are our morality any different from sociopathic beliefs which reduce man to objects in the mind of the psychopath/sociopath?

I remember hearing that the reason why Jews in the Bible were frowned upon in the Bible when they counted their men because by reducing that which is sacred to a mere number, it is an offense in God's eyes because that which is sacred -- each man's soul -- is of priceless value as a child of God. Hence, the abominable acts of the Nazis are more reprehensible because it was an act of reducing human souls to mere objects through the use of serial numbers.

So, I am wondering, where do our moral arguments begin if we rule out sanctification and acceptance of a higher power?

:confused:

The error is that the value of human life comes from God. It most certainly does not. To me, the value of human life comes from the value of my own life. My own preservation allows me to be happy. The preservation of others allows me to be happy as well, because I, working alone, cannot make myself as happy as I can make myself in a society.

A higher power in fact reduces if not eliminates the value of human life. Humans are the most remarkable being that exists, and contain the most potential and power. A higher power would reduce human beings to much less than that. It is often in the name of a higher power that human life is declared meaningless, useless. We are called "sheep", in need of a shepherd because we cannot think for ourselves.

In short: an atheist values other men because he values himself.

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by GeneR
And thus, are our morality any different from sociopathic beliefs which reduce man to objects in the mind of the psychopath/sociopath?

So, I am wondering, where do our moral arguments begin if we rule out sanctification and acceptance of a higher power?

Ah, but can we assume that life without conscience and life without meaning are the same? i think a lot of what motivates us is instinctual survival; and our natural tendency to project also helps us keep from objectifying others too much. Of course we don't identify with other people as much as ourselves, to do so would make life impossible. But we have natural empathy towards infants and children; to those we 'pity' like the disabled and elderly, and then that transfers in a small way to other normal people. We want other's survival because we want our own.

i think we can find morality perfectly well in the absence of religion. it's just more difficult to accept because it's self-imposed and there's no one but ourselves to live up to. We find solice in a fatherly god because we spend our lives trying to please our own parents, and crave a slightly-disapproving black-and-white authority in our lives. but if we can move past that and accept that we must behave in a way that's beneficial to our survival [i]as a race[/a], not much is changed from a christian moral system-- we've just weeded out all the rules that benefit no one but god/the church...

pnw

[bennyek]

Yes.
I don't only believe, I know. Not from physical proof, but from my own personal testimony. I belive god does show himself to us. But only if we ask and truly want to know him. It is nothing one person can prove to another. rather a personal revelation.

[Megaquad]

Originally posted by MarksEvilTwin

Anyway, i close on this note: Consider Jesus Christ. Now people all talk about when the "second coming of Jesus" will be, and i say, dude, he could have already come (if he were to actually come, which i don't think he would, becuase i don't think he was anything more than just a nice guy. not a son of a diety) and nobody would ever notice. Why? Because if some guy came today telling everyone he is the son of god, he is Jesus Christ reborn, he'd end up in a mental institution on heavy anti-psychotic medication. Now think to yourself, the largest religion in the WORLD was built on a guy who today, we would diagnose as schitzofrenic. Another reason why i don't give religion the time of day.

Mark
Yes but schitzofrenics dont do miracles, make food from nothing, walk on water, transform into eternal body, raise from dead. You obviously did not read bible or comparing it with logic to other beliefs.
And second coming of Jesus is supposed to be when end of the world comes.. it is in revelation, he will come with army of angels with power, new earth/heaven etc...
Dont diss things you know NOTHING about.
You claim that less educated,less smart people believe in god while you diss things you dont have any idea about? now who is not smart here?
It is like when pc user says "macs cant browse web, macs are only good for graphics, macs are slow", and they think latest mac is 400 mhz imac.
On the same way, you have no idea about it.
There are things happening in the world, that are caused by intelligence other then humans on earth... How can you explain events on Fatima, Medjugorje? But guess what, you dont even know about them. So how can you judge?

I think god does not reveal himself to many people because he wants to judge their actions on what they do, not because they are afraid of him. After they are proven and tested he reveals to them. So he did to me.

[DannyZR2]

A couple things...

First...

Without God there is no reason for life, and no reason for any of this. Meaningless. And without a God who is involved in our lives and wants to be personally involved with us, life is just as meaningless. I thank God for his direction in my life and his unending faithfullness.

Second...(this is roughly quoted from a document by Chuck Missler)

To those who think the universe always was (no creator) and that because of this, there are infinite chances for order to form from chaos, consider this: It has been discovered that the universe is finite. The implications of this discovery made in the 20th century are staggering. Einsein demonstrated that space-time and matter have a finite, simultaneous beginning. Prior to this discovery, atheistic scientists could be pretty confident that the universe had always existed and just was (not needing a creator) but now knowing that the universe has a finite beginning, there are two possibilities -- it created itself (a logical and scientific absurdity) or it was caused to exist by a Creator who preceeded it. .. read more here
ftp://216.127.88.24/bibleetmessage.pdf

[Megaquad]

Originally posted by funkywhat2
To suppliment:

If you do believe in God, or a supreme being, where did he/she/it come from?
why do you think in such three dimensional way? God IS, he IS always, he created time, you must understand that you cannot understand some things because that question is just plain stupid. Just imagine.. there are more things beyond this earth, imagine if when you die you will be so amazed because you had no idea..

[DannyZR2]

There is a lot of good info out there. Each of us has a built-in desire to seek-out who we are on this Earth and why we are here, and where we came from. I believe God placed this in all of us--I call it a God-shaped void in our lives. Until you fill it with his Son, Jesus Christ, you will continue to search.

Science, reasoning, wealth, fame--all will leave us looking for more, yearning for our Creator. Once you find Him and let go of your life in order to gain His, you will be complete.

Rom 1:19-20 because that which is known about God is evident within you; for God made it evident to you. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that you are without excuse.
- NASB

[DannyZR2]

Originally posted by Megaquad

why do you think in such three dimensional way? God IS, he IS always, he created time, you must understand that you cannot understand some things

Agreed... further, how could a finite mind (ours) fully comprehend an infinite being (our Creator)? - We cannot!

[DannyZR2]

Where did God come from?

the answer is on the pdf I posted...

answer: "a transcendent Creator-One who exists outside time and space"

[Xero]

i consider myself an Agnostic Jew... try to figure that one out ;)

[ibjoshua]

Originally posted by Xero
i consider myself an Agnostic Jew... try to figure that one out ;) I'm an agnostic dyslexic:
I lie awake at night wondering if there really is a Dog.

:)

Oh by the way, that whole "creation is just to amazing to be an accident" line is so boring and so unconvincing. Ask yourself this - why is it only religious people that find that 'argument' compelling?


i_b_joshua

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by DannyZR2
Where did God come from?

the answer is on the pdf I posted...

answer: "a transcendent Creator-One who exists outside time and space"


maybe im not understanding your post here... but that is God.

[GrandShenlong]

First things first: I'm an agnostic.

For now, i don't believe in God. Why? Everthing I believe in has evidence I can see with my very own eyes, or can logically explain something I see with my very own eyes. Until someone takes me into a desert to see the clouds part and glowing man descend from the heavens, turn my bottle of Dasani into blood with a wave of his hand, and terraform the Sahara, I will never believe.

There are those who say that atheist scientists all believe that the Universe just was. Have you heard of the Big Bang Theory? It states that around 15 billion years ago, the Universe (i.e. - space, time, matter) was all compressed in an infinitely small point, and was at a temperature unimaginable in our modern universe. Then, it "exploded" creating the expansion of the universe we can clearly measure today, and condensing into all of the matter in our universe. Some say that there will be a "Big Crunch", where the universe will collapse back on itself by the force of its own gravity. Others say it will expand indefinitely. The determining factor for this is the Hubble constant, which very conveniently, is around the threshold value.

This is a fantastic ('fantastic' as in fantasy, not as in 'awesome') theory, but comparing it to reality, i must say that it holds more credibility. I mean, why does the Bible deem us to be the master race on Earth? Why does God only speak to us? If the Bible was actually a history book, why wasn't Jesus a cow? I mean... in Genesis, God created flora and fauna, and THEN created Man. What's so special about Man? We'r ecapable of rational thoughtnot centered around survival? Chimps and dolphins are capable of the same thing. What makes us so different from the animals?
I'm gonna the role of extreme cynic here, but why does God place us above the rest of Earth's organisms? Is it because we create holes in the ozone layer? Is it because we're the only species who kills our own because of non-territorial and non-proliferation purposes? What is it in us that appeals SO much to God, so as to have His attention centered so fully upon us? Oh yes, why was Jesus a man? Why did God have a male as his messenger - a creature who, through the wonders of modern technology, is no longer needed in the survival of the species? (I'm a guy, btw, so I'm not feminist)

On a lighter note,
George Carlin (paraphrased): "The Bible is the best BS story in the world. Think about it. It has actually managed to convince us that there is a big invisible man in the sky who sees EVERYTHING. He has ten ground rules, and if you break any one of them, you'll be thrown into this boiling pit of fire and brimstone, to burn for all eternity. BUT, he loves you!"

P.S. - Some things I personally ponder about: If there is a God, why hasn't he shown himself? Has anyone ever seen God? If so, has anyone else ever believed them? If Man is his master race, why do we know so little about the universe created for us? Hmmm...

[GrandShenlong]

Sorry about this addendum, but I feel I must comment on some posts.

1. The portrayal of God as a "transcendant Creator - one who exists outside [of] time and space" reminds of a children's sci-fi series my 8-year-old sister is raving about. It's called the Animorphs, and in it, there's apparently a race called the Ellimists, who can manipulate our universe to their will, bending time, changing history, and yadda yadda yadda... I just decided there's a better route to my "criticism". Let's say that there is a "God". He can potentially control every aspect of our world. When you're dreaming, you can learn to control what you dream about. Tha does not mean that you can control the thoughts of your friends in your dreams (at least with the amount of control I have), it merely means you can manipulate the world to your liking/amusement/etc. Now, when we dream, time passes at differnet speeds. Sometimes, waking up 8 hours after you went to bed, you think of how it only seemed like 15 minutes worth of dreams. Other times, you can take a catnap and wake up feeling like you lived 3 days in an instant. Thus, it can be said that you create your version of time and space in your mind. Essentially, a universe is created in your dreams, and each time you wake up, a universe is destroyed, along with everything/everyone in it.

You control this universe, but you definitely live outside of its confines of time and space, as the passage of time is distorted and space itself is created in your mind. Sound like a rendition of God, yet? Thus, the God theory can be generalized to this: the "real' world can be nested series of dreamers and dreamed. if you wake up from this world, you find yourself at the next level. Each time a being dreams, a new universe is created. Each time he/she/it wakes up, one is destroyed. He can perform "miracles" in each dream world, for he controls it. Now, the question will inevitably turn to "Is there a top level?" I don't know, haven't awoken from this dream yet. (I'll gladly elaborate on this later, but I must be going now)

[DannyZR2]

If you truly want to know the answers to your questions.... read Genesis... man- created in God's image, for God, by God. God was not happy with the Earth without man, so he made man and breathed life directly into him. this is just a glimpse...

the Bible is inerrant. in it, you will find your answers.

[idkew]

Originally posted by DannyZR2
If you truly want to know the answers to your questions.... read Genesis... man- created in God's image, for God, by God. God was not happy with the Earth without man, so he made man and breathed life directly into him. this is just a glimpse...

the Bible is inerrant. in it, you will find your answers.

which of the two COMPLETELY different stories of creation should i believe? Geneis has BIG faults.

[yzedf]

NO.

If there was real tangible proof I would.

The Bible is not tangible. It has been re-written/copied by hand/edited by many parties over the years. It is merely an interpretation of what once was. Plus the fact it was written by many men over a huge span of time. This can not be counted as a reliable source of information.

I do not have blind faith in things I can't have proven by/for me.

</rant>

To each their own.

Cheers!

[frescies]

I do not believe in a god.

[CaVoLo]

yes i surely belive that there is only one almighty all powerful God...people that dont belive in God will once they are judged by him...if you dont belive in God (or a god) then you belive that the earth was created by evolution...which pretty much states that everything in this universe came from a speck of dirt...so i choose to belive in an almighty God rather than a speck of dirt :-)

[WinterMute]

No-one can prove this either way, this is the reason so many have died in the name of one religeon or another.

It's about faith. Blind faith maybe, many believers would argue against the blind bit, citing the bible, the koran or whatever sacred texts their religion holds to, but when you take as true something which has not been proved to you or by your own examination then it is faith.

I have no faith in god, and I have no faith in man, I have faith in entropy and the end of all things, but I also have the knowledge that I will not be there to see it.

I'm happy that so many people here have faith, faith is a form of strength and we all need that.

I'm also happy to see this thread starting to get closer to the numbers in the "Rate Your Poop" thread next door:D



P.S. Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, whilst brilliant, is just a theory, as is a lot of the work of Stephen Hawking and much of what Alan Turing said... Theories are often wrong, apparently the earth isn't flat and it goes around the sun:eek:

Go figure...

[diorio]

Originally posted by Megaquad

why do you think in such three dimensional way? God IS, he IS always, he created time, you must understand that you cannot understand some things because that question is just plain stupid. Just imagine.. there are more things beyond this earth, imagine if when you die you will be so amazed because you had no idea..

Wow, this is crazy. I don't think that the question is stupid at all. Coming back with a responce of "you must understand, that you cannot understand" is vague, confusing, and funny. What kind of answer is that? I will ask it again. Please, give me an answer other than, "do not ask, for you could never understand"

:rolleyes:

If you do believe in God, or a supreme being, where did he/she/it come from?

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by diorio
Wow, this is crazy. I don't think that the question is stupid at all. Coming back with a responce of "you must understand, that you cannot understand" is vague, confusing, and funny. What kind of answer is that? I will ask it again. Please, give me an answer other than, "do not ask, for you could never understand"


though i do believe in god, i agree with you that that response is kinda pathetic.

my response would simply be a shrug... "i don't know"... call it blind faith. such an intangible discussion.

[scem0]

Originally posted by springscansing
There is no way to prove there is or is not a god.

To say definitively there is no god anywhere in the universe on any plane of existance in any form means you presume yourself to be all knowing, which would in fact make you a god, and also, totally contradictory.

And to say there is definitely a god when there is no proof is no better.

Bottom line is, you can't say either way.

Agnosticism is the wave of the future damnit!

It takes a wise man to admit he has no idea what the hell is going on.

That is my view. I don't think that there definitely is a god, but I
do acknowledge that there could be a god. And even if there is
a god, who is to say that it is the 'God' of the christian religion?

[scem0]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon


no one cares

THat is not true. If someone got in a time machine and went back
in time, and saw jesus smoking pot, recorded it, and then showed
the world, I think people would care. I'm not saying it is true
though, but I'm not saying it isn't true. ;)

[rainman::|:|]

I thought this thread was about whether or not you believed in god, not "everyone please force your beliefs on everyone else, you might convert someone"...

i will say that the statement that the bible is inerrent is laughable, there are so many versions (many contradictory) you're hard pressed to find any one that's the same as what the original bible probably was...

even the most devoted bible literalist has to admit that it's been altered and re-altered to suit so many people's ideas (mostly kings and leaders) that it's not 100% accurate.

pnw

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
I thought this thread was about whether or not you believed in god, not "everyone please force your beliefs on everyone else, you might convert someone"...

i will say that the statement that the bible is inerrent is laughable, there are so many versions (many contradictory) you're hard pressed to find any one that's the same as what the original bible probably was...

even the most devoted bible literalist has to admit that it's been altered and re-altered to suit so many people's ideas (mostly kings and leaders) that it's not 100% accurate.

pnw



well you know how these relgious and political threads go man... they go all over the place.

if one is secure in thier believes they shouldnt worry about "conversion" or fear anyone trying to impose ones view... i guess.

also... so you mention a pretty conceptual or general understanding of the popular idea that the bible has been altered. this is used many times by people who try to discredit the bible. understandable with out a doubt. however i want to see if you can be more specific... tell me what you know.. what verse or what idea in the bible has been so altered over time. i can tell you now... the concpets in the bible and the ideas have remained the same... the other stuff.. well thats a possibility.

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by krossfyter




well you know how these relgious and political threads go man... they go all over the place.

if one is secure in thier believes they shouldnt worry about "conversion" or fear anyone trying to impose ones view... i guess.

also... so you mention a pretty conceptual or general understanding of the popular idea that the bible has been altered. this is used many times by people who try to discredit the bible. understandable with out a doubt. however i want to see if you can be more specific... tell me what you know.. what verse or what idea in the bible has been so altered over time. i can tell you now... the concpets in the bible and the ideas have remained the same... the other stuff.. well thats a possibility.

See, that's the problem, if we knew of an instance in specific, we'd know the original passage, so it would get changed back. I could cite you instances where a publisher has accientally changed the bible, but they were usually punished (most famous case, The Wicked Bible, verse: thou shalt commit adultery)... a great deal of smaller changes have been implimented in numerous language translations (it's been passed through several languages before it made it to english)... i could give specifics of this, because i know a good biblical researchist, but it's such a specific field of interest you'd probably discredit the proof he gives... namely the anti-gay verses.

if you'd like tho, i can give you a URL...

:)
pnw

[wdlove]

It is done on faith, just not by works alone. Ask God or Jesus and they will answer in prayer!

[chrisfx811]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon


fact is that belief in the supernatural decreases as education increases. this is not to say people who believe in god are less intelligent or less educated, but only that on average the more educated a person is the less likely they are to believe in supernatural forces such as a god.
educated by man that is...:rolleyes:

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by chrisfx811
educated by man that is...:rolleyes:

As opposed to all the badgers out there holding classes...:rolleyes:

The Bible was written by man.

[chrisfx811]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


As opposed to all the badgers out there holding classes...:rolleyes:

The Bible was written by man.
hey enrollment is very limited in these classes. so just becasue you didn't get in don't be jealous:D

[chrisfx811]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


As opposed to all the badgers out there holding classes...:rolleyes:

The Bible was written by man.
and actually, most christians believe that the bible is god's word, and that it is merely recorded by man. my point in the comment was that if you believe in a "christian-like" god who is all knowing and loving, the value of an education derived from man's knowledge holds far less meaning thatn the knowledge one gains from god's teachings, i.e. the bible
however, i should have my "badger-ettes" degree in 3 semesters and will post a thorough comparison.

[zogli]

Some in this thread, and others elsewhere, assert that the universe is finite. Impossible.

First, define universe. Are you referring to the known universe? Or are you intending the term universe to encompass, out there, all possible matter, anti-matter, and the emptiness in between?

If the universe is finite, what lies at the boundary? If it is just emptiness that can be travelled through in a spaceship, this implies that there is more to the universe that remains undiscovered, for how would you tell when you had reached the end of it? if you were traveling into this vast blackness and you had lost all points of reference when your known Milky Way and all the other galaxies had winked out and disappeared behind you, how would you navigate, how would you know you were still pointed away from the place from which you'd originated? What sort of marker would you need to tell you that you had arrived at the edge? More likely you would be moving about in aimless circles completely unaware you were doing so.

If the universe is finite, what lies at the boundary? Some sort of force field where you bounce off and get turned around? Or is it a picket fence or a corrugated iron wall? Any sort of rigid edge to it all suggests that there must be something beyond - a difference sort of universe, different physics, different everything. But something, nevertheless. It might be just an infinitely thick corrugated iron wall. Infinite!

We only ever speak of the known universe - that which is detectable in our instruments. This collection of matter is said to be expanding, and will one day contract to a singularity. Only our local neighborhood has been studied because that is all that can be observed with our primitive technologies. Yes, the scientists have a pretty good handle on how our own "universe" is behaving.

Can no one stand up and assert that this is absolutely all that there is? Where is the proof, where is the physical law, that clearly states that this detectable "universe" is it and there is nothing more to it?

This "finite universe" is all unproven guesswork. The truth of the matter is that X light years away there very probably exists Y number of "universes" all waxing and waning just like ours. (For X and for Y substitute a googleplex to the power googleplex to the power googleplex... infinitely.

Yes, the vastness of space is utterly inconceivable to the human mind and to cope with the terror of not having the answers, we invent an all-knowing god who made it all and who has our best interests at heart.

Belief in your god is an escape from reality. Man wants to know the answers to everything - he has an enquiring mind. If he doesn't understand it then it must be god's work. Get real. Man cannot know everything - he is just not smart enough. Because of not knowing, then god did it, is rubbish.

You believers delude yourselves. Take some responsibility for your own actions. Muslims absolutely fail that test - it was the will of Allah, I did it for Allah, Allah decides for me, Allah says I must kill those who offend me or my religion, so it is not my fault that I participated in 9/11. I was right, and it was for Allah. What an utterly nasty god this Allah must be.

Pedro :)

[scem0]

aye, never kill because an 'all-loving, caring' god 'says' you should...

People do the craziest things, thinking they are actually doing
something good for their god or country. :rolleyes:

[vniow]

The whole problem with this debate is it's basically logic vs. emotion.
The non-believers will express their thoughts about this in logical, well thought out posts while the believers will express their thoughts about this in a more emotional tone that has less thought, but much more feeling to it.

Now which one's right?

You can say that the more educated a person is, the less chance there is of them believing in a higher power and you'd probably be correct. However, you must also look at the type of education that the person has had which shapes their beliefs. Chances are it's in critical thinking, debate, train of thought, etc...and the one thing they all have in common is logic.
The reason why you're not directly taught emotion in schools along with logic is because you can't. You can't teach a person how to feel.
Emotion is something that must be learned through personal experience, usually through relationships and while you do learn it in school, you're not directly taught it, you don't take classes on how to feel, you don't get a grade for it, you don't get tested (you do in life, but you don't sit down at a desk and fill out a form)

The reasons for my beliefs are both stemmed in logic and emotion, I've questioned them time and time again using logical methods but logic always looses because in the end I know what I felt and no amount of thinking is going to change that.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/smiley.gif

[mc68k]

Originally posted by vniow
The whole problem with this debate is it's basically logic vs. emotion.
The non-believers will express their thoughts about this in logical, well thought out posts while the believers will express their thoughts about this in a more emotional tone that has less thought, but much more feeling to it.
subjectivity vs. objectivity, the classic circular debate

[vniow]

Originally posted by mc68k
subjectivity vs. objectivity, the classic circular debate


Which is why these go absolutely nowhere, but sometimes they're fun!http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/grinning.gif

[mc68k]

Originally posted by vniow
Which is why these go absolutely nowhere, but sometimes they're fun interesting to see where people stand and why

the posts thus far have been very approached in a civil manner

[Phil Of Mac]

Emotions and reason don't necessarily have to be in conflict. To a person who's perfectly rational (very few, if any people are, I wouldn't even call myself "perfectly" rational), one's emotions are based upon the conclusions of one's reasoning mind (as well as certain psychological needs, sometimes). As soon as you are fully convinced of something, you are emotionally invested in it.

Emotions are great tools for introspection. If your emotions and your logic are in conflict, it is highly possible that you are subconsciously reacting to something you did not consciously notice. Your emotions, in that case, can cue you into examining something more closely. Emotions, hunches, and instictive reactions are all excellent tools of the subconscious, overcoming the limitations of our conscious mind.

That said, however, the power of Christ compells me to mention that while a well trained emotion can be a good alarm, it can also, if poorly set, be a false alarm. Many people's emotions are so overpowering that it's difficult or even impossible to overcome and change them. You take in a few basic premises as a child and never change for the rest of your life because your emotions overpower any attempt to objectively and fairly evaluate these premises.

As for the overall God debate, I will submit that it is entirely possible that I am God and that your existence is only a figment of my imagination. :)

[ibjoshua]

Originally posted by krossfyter
...the popular idea that the bible has been altered. this is used many times by people who try to discredit the bible. understandable with out a doubt. however i want to see if you can be more specific... tell me what you know.. what verse or what idea in the bible has been so altered over time. i can tell you now... the concpets in the bible and the ideas have remained the same... the other stuff.. well thats a possibility.

I suggest to you that even the concepts in the bible have changed quite considerably. The bible and other religious teachings are used by churches and religions as tools. As such these tools have changed with time.

Here's an excerpt from a trancript of a documentary called "It Ain't Necessarily So" by British journalist John McGrath who spent five years as a hostage of Islamic Jihad in Lebanon. He was given a Bible to read, and saw in the story told there the roots of the political problems that had led to his incarceration.

Oddly, it seems that the commonest objects found in Israelite archaeological sites are female figurines - evidently idols. Rabbi Dr. Jonathan Magonet explains that a number of Hebrew words are translated as "God". One such term, the word used in the first sentence of the Book of Genesis, is a plural. Professor William Dever says it is now known that the Israelites worshipped several gods including a goddess, Ashera, and Diana Edelman says that she was a widely worshipped fertility goddess. Dever tells John that when he first discovered an Israelite inscription proving that Ashera was being worshipped he was afraid to publish it, and kept it secret until others found more evidence that the God of the Israelites did have a Goddess as a consort. Visiting the excavation at Tel Rehov, John is shown an Israelite shrine which seems to be a place for worshipping three or four gods and the goddess.

....

While the Bible does not conceal the idolatrous aspects of Solomon's Temple, it does seem to conceal the worship of the Goddess. Diana Edelmen argues that this has been done by inserting small grammatical changes - which so mystified the translators of the Authorised Version that the Goddess Ashera became a grove of trees when she was put into English.

From abc.net.au (http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s766064.htm)

This suggests the old testament did not originally refer to one god but a couple - maybe more.

My point is that the bible may have some nice stories but to take it as the
literal word of (any) god is ridiculous.

i_b_joshua

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by i_b_joshua


Rabbi Dr. Jonathan Magonet explains that a number of Hebrew words are translated as "God". One such term, the word used in the first sentence of the Book of Genesis, is a plural.

Not to compromise my flaming atheism here, but the general explanation is that the plural form is along the same lines of, and the inspiration for, the "royal 'we'", or the tendency by royalty or others wishing to make themselves look more important to refer to themselves in the plural rather than the singular.

[vniow]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Emotions and reason don't necessarily have to be in conflict.


While true, they often are which is one reason why debates like this go nowhere.

If you had any idea what I was going through right now, you'd see exactly what I was trying to say with that post, but unfortunately any explanation would be useless since one has to experience it to understand (and no I'm not talking about god or religion or whatever, more of a mind/body conflict which is all I'm comfortable talking about right now......)

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by vniow



While true, they often are which is one reason why debates like this go nowhere.

If you had any idea what I was going through right now, you'd see exactly what I was trying to say with that post, but unfortunately any explanation would be useless since one has to experience it to understand (and no I'm not talking about god or religion or whatever, more of a mind/body conflict which is all I'm comfortable talking about right now......)

Okay. I will grant that under duress, things like that happen, and it's very difficult if not impossible to prevent.

[vniow]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac


Okay. I will grant that under duress, things like that happen, and it's very difficult if not impossible to prevent.


I wasn't offended by it at all if that's what you're saying, I was just trying to explain my reasoning behind that post which comes from a very uncomfortable personal perspective, I didn't mean to make anyone else uncomfortable at all with it.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/embarassing.gif

I really need to start staying out of these discussions because of that, or at least think before opening my big mouth.

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by vniow

I really need to start staying out of these discussions because of that, or at least think before opening my big mouth.

you know, i think that at least once a day on MR :) i've finally just accepted the fact that i'll make an ass out of myself a lot, i have more fun this way :)

pnw

[DannyZR2]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
I thought this thread was about whether or not you believed in god, not "everyone please force your beliefs on everyone else, you might convert someone"...

i will say that the statement that the bible is inerrent is laughable, there are so many versions (many contradictory) you're hard pressed to find any one that's the same as what the original bible probably was...

even the most devoted bible literalist has to admit that it's been altered and re-altered to suit so many people's ideas (mostly kings and leaders) that it's not 100% accurate.

pnw

Truth is, the New Testament is quite accurate. There are 25,366 transcripts of the New Testament and they are all within 99.5% exact. This is pretty astounding considering that the next literary work with the most amount of transcripts in existince is Homer's Iliad and there are only 643 manuscripts of that with an accuracty of only 95%.

As far as the Bible being re-written to suit someone's personal agenda, that is impossible since the oldest and newest of the manuscripts are virtually identical.

[DannyZR2]

Originally posted by i_b_joshua


I suggest to you that even the concepts in the bible have changed quite considerably. The bible and other religious teachings are used by churches and religions as tools. As such these tools have changed with time.

Here's an excerpt from a trancript of a documentary called "It Ain't Necessarily So" by British journalist John McGrath who spent five years as a hostage of Islamic Jihad in Lebanon. He was given a Bible to read, and saw in the story told there the roots of the political problems that had led to his incarceration.

Oddly, it seems that the commonest objects found in Israelite archaeological sites are female figurines - evidently idols. Rabbi Dr. Jonathan Magonet explains that a number of Hebrew words are translated as "God". One such term, the word used in the first sentence of the Book of Genesis, is a plural. Professor William Dever says it is now known that the Israelites worshipped several gods including a goddess, Ashera, and Diana Edelman says that she was a widely worshipped fertility goddess. Dever tells John that when he first discovered an Israelite inscription proving that Ashera was being worshipped he was afraid to publish it, and kept it secret until others found more evidence that the God of the Israelites did have a Goddess as a consort. Visiting the excavation at Tel Rehov, John is shown an Israelite shrine which seems to be a place for worshipping three or four gods and the goddess.

....

While the Bible does not conceal the idolatrous aspects of Solomon's Temple, it does seem to conceal the worship of the Goddess. Diana Edelmen argues that this has been done by inserting small grammatical changes - which so mystified the translators of the Authorised Version that the Goddess Ashera became a grove of trees when she was put into English.

From abc.net.au (http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s766064.htm)

This suggests the old testament did not originally refer to one god but a couple - maybe more.

My point is that the bible may have some nice stories but to take it as the
literal word of (any) god is ridiculous.

i_b_joshua

Sorry for quoting all of this... but, this guy is right about one thing, the word for God in Genesis is plural, as God is plural. There are 3 persons of one God. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. YOu've heard this before, I'm sure. There are other parts in Genesis that mention God referring to himself using the word "us", meaning that he is plural. This is a whole separate discussion, but I just wanted to point this out since you brought it up.

and once again, i'd like to post this url for you folks to read.. about the universe, the Bible's authenticity, and where God comes from... ... and since our universe has the dimension of time, by nature we have a beginning and an end, and if a beginning, then a creator who exists without the restraint of time, meaning He has no such beginning, and no such creator.

ftp://216.127.88.24/bibleetmessage.pdf

[Megaquad]

Originally posted by diorio


Wow, this is crazy. I don't think that the question is stupid at all. Coming back with a responce of "you must understand, that you cannot understand" is vague, confusing, and funny. What kind of answer is that? I will ask it again. Please, give me an answer other than, "do not ask, for you could never understand"

:rolleyes:

If you do believe in God, or a supreme being, where did he/she/it come from?
I answered you, its your problem you think so primitive that you cannot understand.

[pianojoe]

Yes I do.

I don't believe in everything the Bible or the church says, but I like the concept that all people should start to treat each other decently, for a change. There was this guy, 2000 years ago, who brought up the idea, and then they nailed him to a tree.

I also like his concept of not answering aggression by aggression, and double-checking your own moral standards first - before imposing them on others.

Interesting, you can accept and follow the concept of God, even if you can't prove (or don't believe) his existance. It's a concept, after all.

BTW, for the "outside world" our western civilisation is a Christian civilisation, pretty much as we refer to Palestinians or Arabs as "muslim" or "islamic": Do you go to work on Sunday? See?

[krossfyter]

DannyZR2 is pretty much saying what id like to say and then some.

im not trying to avoid your responses or discussion ... its just that Danny is saying it all and there is no need to repeat.

[Thanatoast]

i believe in muprhy. and traffic lights--they *must* have supernatural powers.

no seriously, i always mention murphy when appropriate, and always "kiss" the traffic light on yellows.

murphy's probably reading right now, thinking of some way to turn this post against me...

[ibjoshua]

Originally posted by DannyZR2


Sorry for quoting all of this... but, this guy is right about one thing, the word for God in Genesis is plural, as God is plural. There are 3 persons of one God. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. YOu've heard this before, I'm sure. There are other parts in Genesis that mention God referring to himself using the word "us", meaning that he is plural. This is a whole separate discussion, but I just wanted to point this out since you brought it up.
Fine. So what happened to the Goddess Ashera?
You seem to miss the point. We were looking at alternate interpretations. To suggest that the correct meaning has been maintained in it's entirety down through millenia would to my mind require greater faith than anyone could muster.

i_b_joshua

[GrandShenlong]

It seems that Megaquad has a superiority complex :p
One of my good friends is a VERY devout Christian, and on numerous occasions, he has tried to reason that God existed. For the discussions that were 'resolved" we always decided God isn't something whose existence can be proven.

Megaquad: Explain to the primordial intellects among us what your answer of "understand that you cannot understand" means. Three easy steps. Not to get confrontational, but a discussion of God, in particular, is no place to express contempt of lower forms of life.

This discussion IS quite pointless, since anyone who dares to engage in it will never be 'converted" either way. But, it's still fun seeing how other people'sm minds work, so kudos to all.

This will most likely sound harsh, but...
To take a cynical P.O.V., I'll say that God was born of an superiority complex. "Man was created in God's image because He wasn't satisfied with the animals" is a clear indication of this. (Keep in mind that I'm not discrediting the Bible. The fact that its content has purportedly stayed intact for so long says a lot about its credibility) Once again, I say: Why did choose us? Why isn't he a manticore with gills? Best of all worlds. Why does he have to look like something earthly? (e.g. Man, cow, dragonfly, etc.) Why does care so much about "Earth"? If he is above all, why does he have to look like anythin we know? Invariably, I think that the main problem I have with the Bible is that there is no logical proof backing up the notion that its events really HAD to have to do with a supreme Being. There've been numerous scientific proposals as to alternate explanations to the miracles describe in holy writ. Some can be dismissed as atheist hooey, but others actually have plausible content. One of the more plausible ones is that when Moses "turned the sea to blood", what actually occurred was a red tide (i.e. dinoflagellate population explosion due to increased water temperature and nutrient content). These red tides are what gave the Red Sea its name.

About the finiteness of the Universe... To speculate that the Universe is finite or infinite is just that: speculation. We live within our Universe. All space and time, as we know it, is encapsulated in this "finite" Universe. Thus, we will never be able to "see" or "reach' its boundaries, for we are all forever confined within our space-time. What's outside our Universe? Who the heck knows? (Seriously, I will give my $38,000 Steinway to whoever can show me a photo of what's outside the Universe :D ). This finiteness of the Universe is a moot point. Not to try to break out the big guns with a celebrity opinion, but when my father was an astrophysicist, he was a personal friend of Steven Weinberg, and Weinberg had pondered the same question, concluding that its pointless to ponder this question since if our concepts of the Universe are true, then we can't ever know.

P.S. - About God being a thing outside of space and time, maybe that's what MIB was getting at with those giant aliens who tossed the marbles. :rolleyes: :D

[Zion Grail]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac


I'm fully aware of what Taoism is, and I know that their "definition of God" seems to indicate a meaningful concept, but that concept, strictly speaking, is not God. It's a semantic issue that I'm raising, but an important one. If this idea of God is so slippery that we can define him however we want, discussing its existence or nonexistence becomes futile.

The Taoist concept of God is actually pretty convincing. Whether or not you consider "it" to be God is another story.

However, the notion that "it" is God is a fairly strong one.

God is not some big bearded dude in the sky, contrary to the (brilliant) online comic Sinfest. :) Nor is he some other humanly being. (Only human arrogance would suggest so.)

If God is the nature of existence and non-existence, we still see such a thing filling the normal properties of God.

Omnipotent? The set of all things that can an cannot be done. Check.

Omniscient? The set of all things known and not known. Check.

Omnipresent? The set of all things existing and not existing. Check.

Sense of humor? Look around you. See the hilarity? Now take all the hilarity that isn't there, and add it in. Biggest sense of humor ever... check.

A neat bit of this idea is that it tends to drive atheists up the wall. Why? It makes sense. Here we have a concept that fills the main ideas of the western God without all the sticky propganda of major churches getting in the way. The basic message taken out and logically thought through until we have a modern, provable view that still fits in well with the general difinition.

Proving the exitence of a God is a tricky business, though. If you use such a modern adaptation like that and manage to do it - the faith bit becomes disappointing. Other religions' versions of God rely on faith. Once you prove God... well... to quote my friend...

A great deal of the power of religion relies on faith. Faith is that force within the human soul which compels the human to believe in something unsupported by logic. Historically this thing in which people had faith was, of course, God. The problem is that once you logically prove God?s existence, it is much harder to have faith in him. To paraphrase Terry Pratchett, one of the greatest living humorists, the result of proving the existence of God is that you end up believing in him, but in the same way that you would believe in, say, the postman.

[sturm375]

Yes, I believe in God (The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost). One, but three. There is no way to "prove" he/she/it exitsts or not. You only know, or don't know. Those of you who have experianced the "touch of God" you know what I am talking about when I say, there is no doubt in my mind, nor will there ever be, that God exitsts.

[krossfyter]

hey lets be nice to Megaquad here.


the guy is on a different plane then we are. lets understand that. lol

[GeneR]

Originally posted by Zion Grail


The Taoist concept of God is actually pretty convincing. Whether or not you consider "it" to be God is another story.

However, the notion that "it" is God is a fairly strong one.

God is not some big bearded dude in the sky, contrary to the (brilliant) online comic Sinfest. :) Nor is he some other humanly being. (Only human arrogance would suggest so.)

If God is the nature of existence and non-existence, we still see such a thing filling the normal properties of God.

Omnipotent? The set of all things that can an cannot be done. Check.

Omniscient? The set of all things known and not known. Check.

Omnipresent? The set of all things existing and not existing. Check.

Sense of humor? Look around you. See the hilarity? Now take all the hilarity that isn't there, and add it in. Biggest sense of humor ever... check.

A neat bit of this idea is that it tends to drive atheists up the wall. Why? It makes sense. Here we have a concept that fills the main ideas of the western God without all the sticky propganda of major churches getting in the way. The basic message taken out and logically thought through until we have a modern, provable view that still fits in well with the general difinition.

Proving the exitence of a God is a tricky business, though. If you use such a modern adaptation like that and manage to do it - the faith bit becomes disappointing. Other religions' versions of God rely on faith. Once you prove God... well... to quote my friend...



I agree. Yet I also believe that the mystery of God is still something that lies in the province of faith. And (perhaps) for good reason: once you remove all shred of doubt that God exists you also risk removing man's free will to choose God or not. And for that reason alone (perhaps), it is best that this remails one of the eternal questions that plagues man's condition.

I believe that once man reaches the limitations of his own understanding he is immediately confronted with the profound truth of his own ignorance. To say we know so much about the universe is misleading. We "know" more due to theories as opposed to actual, potentially unprovable facts.

Yet often enough a new theory comes along to serve as a patch/temporary fix to our "understanding". But this "understanding" is conjecture nonetheless.

I believe in God and Christ and the Holy Spirit. I also believe that there is quite a bit about Zen and Taoist beliefs that harmonize with the words of the Bible regarding love, respect, beauty and the prayerful life.

I also believe that each of us (as demonstrated by the people on this board) has a right and responsibility to find their own way through this life -- through darkness and light-- to find their own conclusion. To respect this individual duty, is to respect others and their place as equals in this world.

Do I believe in God? Yes.

Can I prove it to you? However which way I may try, I am not so certain.

Because even if any of us had the power to heal or do other miraculous things I think the proof would still be rationalized away by those see but do not believe. So, for believers I feel it is better to be strong of heart and of good cheer, to love God, to love others as you love yourself.

Maybe the compassion of those who believe will be instrumental enough to show the richness that comes through faith.

Is God a Dictator?
In some ways, yes. Benign, though and ultimately looking out for our best interests.

But to see God as a cruel and harsh dictator or oppressor, I believe it is to grossly misinterpret God's love and role in our lives. Some have alluded to the notion that by believing in God is to demean man. The though may be that the existence of God creates a power structure which oppresses man, to put man down, which devalues man.

I believe this is very misleading.

And for those who believe, fundamentally inaccurate. A quote from Milton's Paradise Lost comes to mind as one of the original inspirations of such beliefs. Milton's quote by the Devil, "Better to rule in Hell, than to serve in Heaven" is often used as a popular argument to usurp the belief of God's righteousness.

But upon closer inspection we may find that it was a perverse argument because anyone who comes from a place of love knows that serving is the highest form of bliss and fulfilment, whereas preoccupation with controlling and being in charge is ultimately self-defeating and diminishes the spirit.

An example of this bliss is falling in love. We feel the world suddenly expanding and our greatest desire may be to be with the person of our affections, to help them, to serve them, to take care of them. In such a manner, we see that to serve is really the greatest expression of Love.

On the otherhand, we also see that the belief of control is ultimately self-defeating in that man can never truly control any situation or people because the act of control ultimately leads to strain, which becomes overtaxing to man's limited abilities. We see this fact over and over again in our smallest relationships to the relationships between nations.

So, who knows? We may not know anything at all. But we each have a choice to either choose God or not. And I look at that choice as a gift of love from God which respects my spirit.

[diorio]

Originally posted by Megaquad

I answered you, its your problem you think so primitive that you cannot understand.

That is ************. That answer goes to prove that you have no idea what you're talking about. You're probably one of those stupid ass jesus zealots that preaches to everyone without even knowing what your talking about. That attitude is the reason I shy away from organized religion and all of its mindless followers.

[Les Kern]

Originally posted by diorio


That is ************. That answer goes to prove that you have no idea what you're talking about. You're probably one of those stupid ass jesus zealots that preaches to everyone without even knowing what your talking about. That attitude is the reason I shy away from organized religion and all of its mindless followers.
I almost agree except for the last part, and the two observations don't "line up"... part "B" does not appear to have a reason to be caused by part "A". I too can't stomach fundamentalists in ANY form, but that has little to do with organized religions. There's a LOT of fine folks out there that believe in the church and mind their own business. Don't call them mindless. For every extreme-right Pentacostal nut-case who thinks girls should swim in a dress and product bar codes actually contain "666", there are thousands of "just regular folk".

[scem0]

Originally posted by diorio


That is ************. That answer goes to prove that you have no idea what you're talking about. You're probably one of those stupid ass jesus zealots that preaches to everyone without even knowing what your talking about. That attitude is the reason I shy away from organized religion and all of its mindless followers.

my ex-girlfriend was a 'mindless follower', and I could never stand
it. I would always try to argue with her about religion, but she
was always afraid to question her faith. She kept saying 'it is true
because the bible says so', and stuff like that. It almost drove me
crazy... :rolleyes: ;)

[dabirdwell]

of course not

[Phil Of Mac]

Ayn Rand's answer to the question:

"God, no!"

[scem0]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Ayn Rand's answer to the question:

"God, no!"

lol, I do stuff like that. Like when something says something I can't
stand when I'm arguing about religion I'll say 'Oh my god! how can
you think that!' or something along those lines..... ;)

[peterjhill]

I have previously dated a "preacher girl" I was very cool about it, saying it would not be an issue for me, but the fact is, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible for a truly religous person to have a serious relationship with an agnostic or athiest. The nonbeliever is a constant challenge to the beliefs of the believer. That really is not a good thing. I am not stupid enough to attack someones religous beliefs. After all, I do believe that it takes as much faith to say that there is no God as it does to say there is. My belief is that if there is, screw em. If God needs me to bow down an worship em to "get into heaven" then I don't want to be there. One of my favorite books is "Job, a comedy of Justice" (Job as in prophet, not thing to do). It is written by Heinlein. I like what it says about religeon.

[krossfyter]

cool stuff check it...








God and Extra Time Dimensions



"If God does operate in the equivalent of at least one extra dimension of
time, what does this tell us about God?s capabilities beyond creating the
universe and us? What we have seen so far has laid a foundation to answer
some mystifying questions about God raised by children and scholars alike.
If God created us, who created God? Children ask this question with obvious
sincerity as they seek to affirm their emerging comprehension of time
and cause and effect. Skeptical scholars sometimes ask without listening
for an answer. They raise the question as an impossible stumper, as
justification for their agnostic stance. For anyone willing to stretch
his or her mind a little, an answer is available, one that represents
both the truth of Scripture and the facts of nature. Both sources affirm
that the universe, with everything it contains, is confined to a single
time line (or dimension) and is further confined to moving in one
direction along that line. Even if we were to experience the stretching,
or dilation, of time by moving at velocities approaching the speed of
light, we could neither stop nor reverse time?s arrow. The question of
God?s beginning reflects our understanding of these principles: Whatever
exists has a starting point along the line of time and was caused by
something or someone with an earlier starting point. In other words,
any entity confined to a single line of time, in which time cannot be
stopped or reversed, must have a moment of beginning or creation. An
uncaused effect, a beginningless anything or anyone, contradicts our
experiential knowledge of reality?but not reality itself. For both
the Bible and scientific investigation present us with the reality
of a Being who has the capacity to create our time dimension and fix
its direction, a Being who possesses apparently unlimited time
capacities. For our limited imagination?s sake, however, we can
consider what is possible for Him in a two-dimensional time frame,
which would constitute a time plane. Just how many time dimensions,
or their equivalent, God accesses we do not know, but we do have
theoretical, observational, and theological proofs for these two
dimensions. God has the capacity, thus, to move and operate
backwards and forwards along an infinitely long time line, or along
as many time lines, infinite or otherwise, as He chooses. He can operate,
if He desires, on a time line parallel to our time line or on one
intersecting our time line, but He is not compelled to do either. Thus,
God has the capacity to cause effects for infinite time on innumerable
time lines that never intersect or touch our time line. As such, we could
point to no beginning and no end for Him. Since beginnings only make
sense where time in some way is linear, God must be a beginningless Being.
He has always existed and will always remain. He never had a creation
event. This illustration helps us to picture more clearly how the words
of John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16-17 can be true. Just this one extra time
dimension releases Him from the necessity of a beginning?and an ending,
for that matter. As these verses declare, He and He alone was not created.
Among the world?s "holy" books, these statements are unique to the Bible.
They could only be true of a Being with access to the equivalent of two
or more time dimensions.They could only be inspired by a Being whose
experience is not limited to a single dimension of time. Tuning in to
Simultaneous Prayers Anyone who has tried to listen to two or three
conversations at once will guess what the second question is: How can
God hear and respond to my prayers while millions or even billions of other
people are praying at the same moment around the world? Again, our
experience with time and attention tells us that no one can tune in to
billions of voices at the same moment, much less respond to them all. As
one third-grader stated the situation, a billion simultaneous calls would
jam up God?s phone line. Because of our confinement to a single,
unidirectional, unstoppable time line, we humans are forced to communicate
with other individuals (or groups) sequentially. But God does not live with
such confinement. In a two-dimensional time plane such as the one described
above, His capacity to communicate with any number of individuals
simultaneously can be demonstrated. In this plane, God can extend a time
line perpendicularly, or at a right angle, to our time line at any given
moment along our time line. On this perpendicular line, God can give
individual, undivided attention to any number of prayers simultaneously.
None of us have any need to worry that our communication with Him will
be drowned out by the communication of others. Operating in a time plane is
one provable way God could give individual attention to six billion
simultaneous prayers. But, as the Master and Creator of at least ten
space-time dimensions, He obviously would have many more options. This
simple illustration goes far in reassuring us that God really is attentive
to us at every moment, in every situation. It gives new meaning to King
David?s expression of joy and wonder: How precious to me are your thoughts,
O God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would
outnumber the grains of sand.





Timefulness Versus Timelessness

The choice of the word timeful to describe God?s time-related capacities
deliberately contradicts a notion that much of the church has held and
taught for many centuries, the notion of a "timeless" eternity as the
realm where God lives and where we will live someday also. Timelessness
seems to contradict both biblical and scientific evidences for the reality
beyond our universe. Plato first introduced the concept. He reasoned that
since all time-dependent phenomena are temporal, then to some degree they
must be illusory and valueless, for only what is timeless, unchanging,
and eternal retains ultimate reality and value. Eight hundred years later,
Saint Augustine incorporated Plato?s concept into his interpretation of
Christian doctrine. Augustine noted that the Bible teaches God?s independent,
transcendent existence; that is, God lives apart from and beyond the
limits of His creation. Since time is a component of the physical universe
(the creation), Augustine correctly positioned the Creator outside the
universe?s time frame. To Augustine, this positioning meant God lives
outside of time altogether, that is, in timelessness. Eight centuries
later, Saint Thomas Aquinas expanded on Augustine?s interpretation of
God?s transcendence. God?s transcendence, he claimed, demanded the
attributes of perfection, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence,
spacelessness, and timelessness. In the centuries since, Augustine
and Aquinas?s teachings have so dominated centers of theological
scholarship that rare indeed is the student or professor who dares to
challenge the doctrine of God?s dwelling in a timeless eternity.
Ironically, the notion of spacelessness is rarely,if ever, mentioned.
Some scholars see this doctrine of God?s timelessness as an essential
element of orthodoxy. What many of these scholars have failed to
grasp is that time as understood by most people today, or its
equivalent, could exist in something other than the time dimension of
the cosmos. The difficulty arose, and still arises, from a limited
perspective on what time in the scientific age means. Time and causality
are inextricably intertwined. Time typically is defined by the operation
of cause-and-effect phenomena. It does not necessarily follow, however,
that all causation occurs within the arena of a time coordinate as we
humans experience it. Again, God may possess super-dimensions, capacities,
or attributes that permit causation just as a time coordinate does.
Attributing complete timelessness to God, though, means to most modern-day
people that God exists where causes and effects do not happen, and this
idea contradicts biblical teachings. To be fair, Augustine and Aquinas
probably did not see the connection between time and cause and effect to
the degree that people in contemporary society do. These philosophers
probably would be shocked to discover that for many today timelessness
connotes perfect inactivity and infinite boredom. Perhaps we can see from
this connotation why so many people, both children and adults, have
difficulty not only picturing but also anticipating heaven. That God is
there and that we will dwell with Him in person helps stir our desire
to be there, but beyond that, timelessness suggests a kind of
motionlessness that strikes us as less than compelling or inviting. We all
like to be in neutral once in a while, but only to refuel our engines for
jumping back into action. One can hardly wait to discover what
multiple time dimensional type of action God has in store for our unendingly
timeful life with Him in the equivalent of multiple time dimensions."

[peterjhill]

So, if God knows the past, present, and future, God knows every thing I will do in my entire life. You can say that God has given us all free will, but all the "evidence" is there for judgement day. God can spare me the threats of eternal damnation of my soul. I live a pretty Christian life, except for all the parts relating to worshiping God.

I am definitely one of the more Bible literate agnostics here. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have spent the sum total of 200 days in church with my parents, and everyone there thought I was a good christian boy. They asked when I was baptized (one of the churches where you get baptized as an adult) and I would tell them I didn't believe in god. Boy did that shock them.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by peterjhill
So, if God knows the past, present, and future, God knows every thing I will do in my entire life. You can say that God has given us all free will, but all the "evidence" is there for judgement day. God can spare me the threats of eternal damnation of my soul.

I live a pretty Christian life, except for all the parts relating to worshiping God.

I am definitely one of the more Bible literate agnostics here. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have spent the sum total of 200 days in church with my parents, and everyone there thought I was a good christian boy. They asked when I was baptized (one of the churches where you get baptized as an adult) and I would tell them I didn't believe in god. Boy did that shock them.

i respond to you in kindness and respect,

what do you mean "christian life"?

also can you elaborate on your first response in this post.... the threats of eternal damnation thing. im not clear on it.
thanx

[professor]

... anybody know a good religion forum so I can go there to discuss Macintosh?

[ibjoshua]

Originally posted by Les Kern
I too can't stomach fundamentalists in ANY form, but that has little to do with organized religions. There's a LOT of fine folks out there that believe in the church and mind their own business. Don't call them mindless. For every extreme-right Pentacostal nut-case who thinks girls should swim in a dress and product bar codes actually contain "666", there are thousands of "just regular folk".

You're right. Try talking sense to a right or left wing extremist or even a full on greenie. Fanatics of all belief systems should be avoided if possible.

i_b_joshua

[iGav]

Nope......

[GrandShenlong]

if I came across earlier as a bit rough on megaquad, I apologize. My comment was made in jest.

But, I will propose something:
Why cannot science and God coexist? Many of the miracles in the Bible can be explained (or half-explained) through scientific means. The turning of the sea to blood, the parting of the sea, the staff turning to a serpent, etc. (though I still cannot rationalize the resurrection of Jesus) The seven days of Genesis can coexist perfectly with evolution and the Big Bang theory, for the concept of the "day" had not yet been concretely defined before Creation. The creation of the heavens and earth could have taken billions of years in our modern measurement, yet could still be defined as a few days in the Bible, for the definition of"day" had not yet been created.
Science and God are just two explanations for things we see every day which we cannot explain in a sentence. Thus, we throw around words like "Big Bang", "evolution", "miracle", and "God". Essentially, they are perfectly equal in their reliance on faith and belief. The main tenets of modern science - Newton's laws of motion, the axioms of quantum mechanics, general relativity, special relativity - all require their own beliefs and blind faith. These fundamental laws of physics can never be proven, but they have not yet been disporven. THAT is why they are accepted. God's existence has never been proven, but his existence has not yet been disproven either, nor CAN it be. In the end, both are religions. It is just that the main tenets of Christianity, Judaism, Islam are laid out in a more embellished form than the cold hard "truths" of science.

As to fundamentalists...
Robin Williams: "You ever talk to one of those fundamentalist religious types? It's really boring, I mean, you try to have a rational discussion with them: 'Let there be Light. That could be a metaphor for the Big Bang, right?' 'No, God juss went click.' "

Then there's all of those evangelists who, near the end of 1999, were going: "...AND THE CLO-O-O-O-OUDS WILL PART, AND OUR LO-ORD JE-E-E-ESUS WILL DESCE-E-E-END FROM THE HEAVENS, AND CAST THIS WORLD OF SIN , THIS WORLD OF EVIL, INTO A GREAT CA-A-A-A-AULDRON OF FIRE .. AND BRIMSTONE ...AND oh it's 2000 already? IN ANOTHER THO-O-O-OUSAND YEARS, OUR LORD JE-E-E-ESUS..."

[diorio]

Originally posted by GrandShenlong


Then there's all of those evangelists who, near the end of 1999, were going: "...AND THE CLO-O-O-O-OUDS WILL PART, AND OUR LO-ORD JE-E-E-ESUS WILL DESCE-E-E-END FROM THE HEAVENS, AND CAST THIS WORLD OF SIN , THIS WORLD OF EVIL, INTO A GREAT CA-A-A-A-AULDRON OF FIRE .. AND BRIMSTONE ...AND oh it's 2000 already? IN ANOTHER THO-O-O-OUSAND YEARS, OUR LORD JE-E-E-ESUS..."

He he, great stuff.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by GrandShenlong
if I came across earlier as a bit rough on megaquad, I apologize. My comment was made in jest.

But, I will propose something:
Why cannot science and God coexist? Many of the miracles in the Bible can be explained (or half-explained) through scientific means. The turning of the sea to blood, the parting of the sea, the staff turning to a serpent, etc. (though I still cannot rationalize the resurrection of Jesus) The seven days of Genesis can coexist perfectly with evolution and the Big Bang theory, for the concept of the "day" had not yet been concretely defined before Creation. The creation of the heavens and earth could have taken billions of years in our modern measurement, yet could still be defined as a few days in the Bible, for the definition of"day" had not yet been created.
Science and God are just two explanations for things we see every day which we cannot explain in a sentence. Thus, we throw around words like "Big Bang", "evolution", "miracle", and "God". Essentially, they are perfectly equal in their reliance on faith and belief. The main tenets of modern science - Newton's laws of motion, the axioms of quantum mechanics, general relativity, special relativity - all require their own beliefs and blind faith. These fundamental laws of physics can never be proven, but they have not yet been disporven. THAT is why they are accepted. God's existence has never been proven, but his existence has not yet been disproven either, nor CAN it be. In the end, both are religions. It is just that the main tenets of Christianity, Judaism, Islam are laid out in a more embellished form than the cold hard "truths" of science.

As to fundamentalists...
Robin Williams: "You ever talk to one of those fundamentalist religious types? It's really boring, I mean, you try to have a rational discussion with them: 'Let there be Light. That could be a metaphor for the Big Bang, right?' 'No, God juss went click.' "

Then there's all of those evangelists who, near the end of 1999, were going: "...AND THE CLO-O-O-O-OUDS WILL PART, AND OUR LO-ORD JE-E-E-ESUS WILL DESCE-E-E-END FROM THE HEAVENS, AND CAST THIS WORLD OF SIN , THIS WORLD OF EVIL, INTO A GREAT CA-A-A-A-AULDRON OF FIRE .. AND BRIMSTONE ...AND oh it's 2000 already? IN ANOTHER THO-O-O-OUSAND YEARS, OUR LORD JE-E-E-ESUS..."


so umm whats your point? christians are wackos or just fundie christians? there are a lot of wackos everywhere and "wackoism" knows no race, gender, religion etc. etc. im sure you know this but i just want to know what your point of that was. no ill respect intended.

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by professor
... anybody know a good religion forum so I can go there to discuss Macintosh?

RAOTFLMFAO!!!!!

[Les Kern]

Originally posted by professor
... anybody know a good religion forum so I can go there to discuss Macintosh?
On Vaticancouncil.com there a thread called "Lesbian right-wing nihilists who want to be priests and own an iBook". But that's stupid, eh? I've always been captivated by the "community" forum here.
Nice post.

[yosoyjay]

no

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by professor
... anybody know a good religion forum so I can go there to discuss Macintosh?

lol



under "community discussion" one is allowed to discuss things other then macs.




;)

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by scem0


my ex-girlfriend was a 'mindless follower', and I could never stand
it. I would always try to argue with her about religion, but she
was always afraid to question her faith. She kept saying 'it is true
because the bible says so', and stuff like that. It almost drove me
crazy... :rolleyes: ;)


do you think all christians are mindless followers?

[scem0]

Originally posted by krossfyter



do you think all christians are mindless followers?


no, but a damned lot of them are. Enough to make me sick. There
have been times at Sunday school that I have wondered if I had
accidently gone to the wrong place and ended up in the mentally
ill section... Mindless zombie children all saying 'because jesus
loves me/because the bible says so/god loves all'. I would love
to see what they would have to say in this thread...

BTW I am not implying that christians never question their faith.

I am just saying that many don't, and if they did I bet they would
not be christians for long.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by scem0



no, but a damned lot of them are. Enough to make me sick. There
have been times at Sunday school that I have wondered if I had
accidently gone to the wrong place and ended up in the mentally
ill section... Mindless zombie children all saying 'because jesus
loves me/because the bible says so/god loves all'. I would love
to see what they would have to say in this thread...

BTW I am not implying that christians never question their faith.

I am just saying that many don't, and if they did I bet they would
not be christians for long.


nah i hear what you are saying. i too have come incontact with christians who dont know why they believe what they beleive. i wouldnt call most of them "mindless" though... thats sorta sounds like the person saying it is trying to be superior. not cool. some are mindless though... but hell that goes for every group not JUST christians.

you just havent had the oppurtunity to meet some really smart yet humble...intellectual christians.


those are the christians the devil is scared of.


if you do meet them... prepare for your faith in whatever you beleive in (something tech) to be thrown to *****.

[scem0]

Oh, and I meant to ask what y'all thought of that previous post
that had proof of Jesus and his connection to pot.

And don't the many denominations of christianity cause y'all to
not put so much credit into christianity. The denominations of
christianity bugs me. To me, it just proves how split up christians
are.

Another thing that bugs me about christianity is the amount of
suffering and pain christianity has caused. How many innocents
have been harmed in the name of God. Not only in history (the
Inquisition, Crusades, etc.) but in modern times. I know that most
religions have problems like this, but once again, it proves what
people will do 'mindlessly' in the name of God.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by scem0
Oh, and I meant to ask what y'all thought of that previous post
that had proof of Jesus and his connection to pot.

And don't the many denominations of christianity cause y'all to
not put so much credit into christianity. The denominations of
christianity bugs me. To me, it just proves how split up christians
are.

Another thing that bugs me about christianity is the amount of
suffering and pain christianity has caused. How many innocents
have been harmed in the name of God. Not only in history (the
Inquisition, Crusades, etc.) but in modern times. I know that most
religions have problems like this, but once again, it proves what
people will do 'mindlessly' in the name of God.




well thats easy...

take this for example... (for example you dont have to beleive it) ...

1. you have the one truth system (jesus is the way system)

2. on the other side you have the villian system trying to disrupt the one truth system and confuse people. (satan and his croonies)


this is why "christianity" is being attacked a lot... more so then any other religion or belief.
you think the villian system wants people to know the truth.. hell nah.. they want people to be confused... blind to it... they want people to think bad about the people who know the one truth system.. they want people to emphasize the bad that comes from people who believe in the one truth system (mind you "people" in general are faliable... but its empahsized with people who believe in the one truth system).


its sorta of an age old sabatoge. (im on the counter strike end of it)


the rest of the beliefs arent hit has hard.


this can explain the crusades etc. and different denomonations etc.



NOW i didnt say you have to beleive it (im sure you dont)... im only explaining to you why all this makes sense to me.

besides when it all comes down to it.. in the end i would rather put my trust in Jesus as oppose to anything else man has concieved.


there is too much credible evidence to me about Jesus being the way for me to put my trust in anything else.

[scem0]

I think that the greatest thing you can put your trust in is
yourself (I suppose that is one reason I have always been
reclusive. I have friends but I prefer not to do much with them,
and I enjoy being alone. ) I think that putting your trust in
something that is more than likely non-existant is pointless and
bad things are more likely to happen. I would rather just trust
in myself, and not uphold a non-existant God's values, but my own
values.

[vniow]

Originally posted by krossfyter
1. you have the one truth system (jesus is the way system)




I may be mistaken, but I think it's that belief that scem0 has an issue with (and so do I).

Most of the Christians I met believed pretty much that. They have this mentality that it's either my way or no way with nothing inbetween and it's commonly used as a scare tactic to get people to accept Jesus as their personal savior (I've seen and experinced this first hand) and I have a real problem with that.

I'm not saying all Christians are like that, in fact I've met many who aren't, but there's more than a select few that are and they tarnish the rest of the religion in the process.

[iJon]

Originally posted by krossfyter
besides when it all comes down to it.. in the end i would rather put my trust in Jesus as oppose to anything else man has concieved.


there is too much credible evidence to me about Jesus being the way for me to put my trust in anything else.
well said, im completly with you on that one. i have just had to many emotional and mental proof of exsistence hit on the head, as well as lots of physics proof about god and jesus to make me put my faith into anything else.

iJon

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by scem0
I think that the greatest thing you can put your trust in is
yourself (I suppose that is one reason I have always been
reclusive. I have friends but I prefer not to do much with them,
and I enjoy being alone. ) I think that putting your trust in
something that is more than likely non-existant is pointless and
bad things are more likely to happen. I would rather just trust
in myself, and not uphold a non-existant God's values, but my own
values.


to you its non existant.. you havent taken the plunge to find out for sure.


i did... i took a dive.. a nose dive right into giving my life to Jesus. I will never go back.. no regrets ect. ect. Now i know whats up.

i wouldnt trust myself or any human for my soul. humans are faliable.... not perfect. im not perfect. Jesus is perfect.


my belief once again... not saying you have to agree with it. just want you to know where im coming from.

[vniow]

Originally posted by iJon

well said, im completly with you on that one. i have just had to many emotional and mental proof of exsistence hit on the head, as well as lots of physics proof about god and jesus to make me put my faith into anything else.

iJon


Me too, but not in Jesus.http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/winky.gif

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by vniow



I may be mistaken, but I think it's that belief that scem0 has an issue with (and so do I).

Most of the Christians I met believed pretty much that. They have this mentality that it's either my way or no way with nothing inbetween and it's commonly used as a scare tactic to get people to accept Jesus as their personal savior (I've seen and experinced this first hand) and I have a real problem with that.

I'm not saying all Christians are like that, in fact I've met many who aren't, but there's more than a select few that are and they tarnish the rest of the religion in the process.


scare tactics are bad.

anyways... dont look to christians to be pefect or nice or whatever... look to Christ only. humans tarnish a lot of things... no matter what group.
why because humans are faliable.

about Jesus being the only way.....

if a christian doesnt believe that... they have compromised the basis of christianity.

if Jesus wasnt the only way... he would have said so.

[Vector]

no.

I consider my self at most an agnostic.

Can someone make a poll out of this? I would be interested to see the results. More people have said no than i expected.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by iJon

well said, im completly with you on that one. i have just had to many emotional and mental proof of exsistence hit on the head, as well as lots of physics proof about god and jesus to make me put my faith into anything else.

iJon


http://celica.net/ubb/graemlins/woot.gif

[vniow]

Originally posted by krossfyter
about Jesus being the only way.....

if a christian doesnt believe that... they have compromised the basis of christianity.

if Jesus wasnt the only way... he would have said so.


The only way for who? Christians? I could possibly accept that, but for the rest of the non-Christian world I can't.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by Vector
no.

I consider my self at most an agnostic.

Can someone make a pole out of this? I would be interested to see the results. More people have said no than i expected.


poll would be a good idea.


dont know if everyone would come back to vote.


i think most are fed up with posts like this.


most people dont have the stomach to talk about religion or faith or whatever.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by vniow



The only way for who? Christians? I could possibly accept that, but for the rest of the non-Christian world I can't.


well i was talking about christians. but the only way Jesus deal applies to us all... as a christian thats my belief.... meaning thats a baisc belief of christians. if i didnt beleive that... i wouldnt be a christian.


i didnt know Jesus was the only way until after I accpeted him. i came to christ pretty blind... through blind faith. now thats not the case. one doesnt know what the deal is with the system untill one is in it... i guess.


but yeah... i respect your opinion that Jesus is not the way... because its your opinion. you have a right to have it. i dont agree with it.. much like you dont agree with me.

we will just agree to disagree.


;)

[scem0]

Originally posted by krossfyter



to you its non existant.. you havent taken the plunge to find out for sure.


i did... i took a dive.. a nose dive right into giving my life to Jesus. I will never go back.. no regrets ect. ect. Now i know whats up.

i wouldnt trust myself or any human for my soul. humans are faliable.... not perfect. im not perfect. Jesus is perfect.


my belief once again... not saying you have to agree with it. just want you to know where im coming from.

I have taken the plunge. I used to be a devout christian. That
was about 5 years ago (around when I was 10). I was soooo
close to getting babtised, and all that stuff, when I changed my
mind. I was at a party thing my church was throwing, and I was
with the youth, and i noticed how many of the kids weren't
actually thinking about what they were getting themselves into.

That is when I began to ponder my spirituallity, asking myself
what I felt, rather than taking a preacher's word for it. I have
been just fine without christianity. Much better in fact.

[Vector]

Originally posted by krossfyter



i think most are fed up with posts like this.


most people dont have the stomach to talk about religion or faith or whatever.

Thats why i did not go into depth in my response. It is very difficult to resolve topics involving issues that are so important to people and so deeply instilled within their being. When it comes to religion, I prefer to just let everyone think what they want whether i agree with it or not because it is really none of my business and i think it is futile to try to convince others to believe the same thing you do. Those who have religious beliefs are often easily upseted when their beliefs are questioned, making them even more opposed to alternate views on religion.

[pantagruel]

I usually dont give it much thought unless im in it real deep and then Im all like "oh god help me" or "if you get me out of this I promise Ill never do it again...." oh and I always like to critize others for not being christian enough, especially when Im out clubbing or talking about people behind their backs......
for the most part though I totally devote my life to the writings of some people written in a language I would never know how to understand but trust that the translation Im reading is perfect and unflawed, oh and I totally think that my church is the one and only true church of god.....

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by scem0


I have taken the plunge. I used to be a devout christian. That
was about 5 years ago (around when I was 10). I was soooo
close to getting babtised, and all that stuff, when I changed my
mind. I was at a party thing my church was throwing, and I was
with the youth, and i noticed how many of the kids weren't
actually thinking about what they were getting themselves into.

That is when I began to ponder my spirituallity, asking myself
what I felt, rather than taking a preacher's word for it. I have
been just fine without christianity. Much better in fact.


*opinion begin*


you didnt know Jesus.

if you would of really known Jesus you would have never "gone back".

the fact that you say your life is better now then then shows it.


*opinion end*



cheers

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by Vector


Thats why i did not go into depth in my response. It is very difficult to resolve topics involving issues that are so important to people and so deeply instilled within their being. When it comes to religion, I prefer to just let everyone think what they want whether i agree with it or not because it is really none of my business and i think it is futile to try to convince others to believe the same thing you do. Those who have religious beliefs are often easily upseted when their beliefs are questioned, making them even more opposed to alternate views on religion.


cool. thats why im not trying to convince anyone... thats Gods job.

i just converse "my own" beliefs and opinions... as does everyone else.


if anyone wants to make a change... its not up to me. i dont convert people. i just share.... thasts all.



dig it.

[maluscanis]

I find it interesting how most people are so opposed and affronted by the idea that there is only one way to God. The reality is that if God were to give us 100 ways to get to him, we would want 101. Maybe the real problem is that we want our own autonomy.

[vniow]

Originally posted by maluscanis
I find it interesting how most people are so opposed and affronted by the idea that there is only one way to God. The reality is that if God were to give us 100 ways to get to him, we would want 101. Maybe the real problem is that we want our own autonomy.


I find it interesting that people are so attached to the idea that there is one way to god.

I mean, look at how many poeple posted here, all with their own personal beliefs. If there truly were only one way to god then only one person out of the history of the world would be right because everyone's beliefs are different, no matter how miniscule.

[DannyZR2]

There IS only one way to God (through Jesus Christ), but as you put it "god"--there are many ways to worship a "god" -little g.. infact everyone has one.. most people, it's themselves, and that's fine, but how is that "god" gonna help them when they are at the end of their rope.. who will they reach to? because at that point... their "god" is right there at the bottom with them and can't help them one bit...

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by DannyZR2
There IS only one way to God (through Jesus Christ), but as you put it "god"--there are many ways to worship a "god" -little g.. infact everyone has one.. most people, it's themselves, and that's fine, but how is that "god" gonna help them when they are at the end of their rope.. who will they reach to? because at that point... their "god" is right there at the bottom with them and can't help them one bit...



wow

[GrandShenlong]

The last section of my previous post was made to entertain, not convey the point of "wackoism" running rampant. I was trying to say religion and science are not black and white, oil and water, mercury and wood. They can coexist. This is what I see as the major "flaw" (read: opinion) in the beliefs of many devout Christians. Too often, I have encountered perfectly normal and logical people who get extremely riled up when their 3-minute conversion of me fails. That really bugs me. Why do so many Christians think that their religion is superior to other beliefs? [As far as I know, (which admittedly, isn't far) Judaism is a MUCH more tolerant religion than Christianity.] Belief in God has caused more deaths over the course of history than any other single documented cause. It's fine to believe, heck, I know quite a few wonderful people who were totally changed by God. But, - and this ties into the blind faith thing - why are there so many people who think "You're either with me, or against me." WTF?

On the established Church...
About the denomination thing, I totally agree. The fact that there are so many religions of God can only, in my opinion, detract from His credit rating. I mean, King Henry VIII (i think it's Henry VIII) created his own religion, the Church of England, because he wanted to screw Anne Boleyn more often. Luther broke off from the Church because it was becoming too corrupt for his taste. These new child molestation lawsuits, and the Vatican's balls-and-cups trick with the guilty priests certainly calls into question the purity and "sanctity" of the established Church.

Blunt question to Christians: What has belief in Him done to/for you? Many say it has brought comfort and strength. Okay, so it gives a foundation upon which you can find comfort in the fact that an invisible man in the sky can hear you. To me, that sounds like a placebo effect (or call it circular logic):

> .'. There is a higher Being who can hear my pleas,
'.' and in this, I find comfort.

> '.' I believe that there is a higher Being who can hear my pleas,
.'. because I find comfort in this belief.


P.S. - What happened to Megaquad? I miss him/her, if only for comic relief.

[sturm375]

Originally posted by GrandShenlong
The last section of my previous post was made to entertain, not convey the point of "wackoism" running rampant. I was trying to say religion and science are not black and white, oil and water, mercury and wood. They can coexist. This is what I see as the major "flaw" (read: opinion) in the beliefs of many devout Christians. Too often, I have encountered perfectly normal and logical people who get extremely riled up when their 3-minute conversion of me fails. That really bugs me. Why do so many Christians think that their religion is superior to other beliefs? [As far as I know, (which admittedly, isn't far) Judaism is a MUCH more tolerant religion than Christianity.] Belief in God has caused more deaths over the course of history than any other single documented cause. It's fine to believe, heck, I know quite a few wonderful people who were totally changed by God. But, - and this ties into the blind faith thing - why are there so many people who think "You're either with me, or against me." WTF?

On the established Church...
About the denomination thing, I totally agree. The fact that there are so many religions of God can only, in my opinion, detract from His credit rating. I mean, King Henry VIII (i think it's Henry VIII) created his own religion, the Church of England, because he wanted to screw Anne Boleyn more often. Luther broke off from the Church because it was becoming too corrupt for his taste. These new child molestation lawsuits, and the Vatican's balls-and-cups trick with the guilty priests certainly calls into question the purity and "sanctity" of the established Church.

Blunt question to Christians: What has belief in Him done to/for you? Many say it has brought comfort and strength. Okay, so it gives a foundation upon which you can find comfort in the fact that an invisible man in the sky can hear you. To me, that sounds like a placebo effect (or call it circular logic):

> .'. There is a higher Being who can hear my pleas,
'.' and in this, I find comfort.

> '.' I believe that there is a higher Being who can hear my pleas,
.'. because I find comfort in this belief.


P.S. - What happened to Megaquad? I miss him/her, if only for comic relief.

As a Christian:

I agree, every establisment formed by Man, can and will be corupted. The Church needs God, God doesn't need the Church. I attend a Methodist Church, however I don't consider myself a Methodist. I am a Christian.

Also, The Church is supposed to service the community. They are a place where like minded people, can assemble and preform services for each other, and others in the community.

As for your last part, I find confort in the fact that there is a higher power, that listens to my pleas, and talks back. This is something that many people miss in the observation of a faithfull person. When I pray, is spend as much time talking as I do listening. God doesn't speak in a booming voice, and any voice per-se(sp?), rather He speaks to your heart.

[maluscanis]

"Blunt question to Christians: What has belief in Him done to/for you? Many say it has brought comfort and strength. Okay, so it gives a foundation upon which you can find comfort in the fact that an invisible man in the sky can hear you. To me, that sounds like a placebo effect (or call it circular logic)"

Perhaps I am reading a bit too much in to your question. I sense you feel that people believe in God for the comfort it brings them. In other words, it serves as an emotional crutch in our walk through life.

Let me say this about authentic Christianity (that which was taught in the first century - it was based on the letters of the apostles, what we know call the Bible) - it is very difficult to follow. The gospel message is one of denying oneself for God and His glory. Do you know how hard it is to love your neighbor as you do yourself and to love the people you don't like? Christianity is a call to service. Did Mother Teresa live and believe the way she did because it gave her a sense of security...I honestly, don't think she did. She lived the way she did because her heart was awakened with passion for the homeless and forgotten.

For those of you who are truly searching for answers to life's questions of truth and meaning - I would ask that you consider the ideas that Jesus Christ brought to the table. If you are interested in an intellectual and sensible defense of the christian message, please read the book Case for Christ by Lee strobel. It was written by a skeptic for the skeptical mind. If you are into philosophy - I will be glad to send you a CD copy of a seminar taken from Iowa State University about Christianity's answers to the 5 most difficult questions (How can there be a God and there still be evil, etc...). I guarantee this will change the way you look at Christianity. My email is sfay@postmaster.co.uk if you are interested.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by maluscanis
"Blunt question to Christians: What has belief in Him done to/for you? Many say it has brought comfort and strength. Okay, so it gives a foundation upon which you can find comfort in the fact that an invisible man in the sky can hear you. To me, that sounds like a placebo effect (or call it circular logic)"

Perhaps I am reading a bit too much in to your question. I sense you feel that people believe in God for the comfort it brings them. In other words, it serves as an emotional crutch in our walk through life.

Let me say this about authentic Christianity (that which was taught in the first century - it was based on the letters of the apostles, what we know call the Bible) - it is very difficult to follow. The gospel message is one of denying oneself for God and His glory. Do you know how hard it is to love your neighbor as you do yourself and to love the people you don't like? Christianity is a call to service. Did Mother Teresa live and believe the way she did because it gave her a sense of security...I honestly, don't think she did. She lived the way she did because her heart was awakened with passion for the homeless and forgotten.

For those of you who are truly searching for answers to life's questions of truth and meaning - I would ask that you consider the ideas that Jesus Christ brought to the table. If you are interested in an intellectual and sensible defense of the christian message, please read the book Case for Christ by Lee strobel. It was written by a skeptic for the skeptical mind. If you are into philosophy - I will be glad to send you a CD copy of a seminar taken from Iowa State University about Christianity's answers to the 5 most difficult questions (How can there be a God and there still be evil, etc...). I guarantee this will change the way you look at Christianity. My email is sfay@postmaster.co.uk if you are interested.


http://celica.net/ubb/graemlins/bigthumbup.gif

[scem0]

I agree with malusconis. What Christians 'get' out of being
christian (support, happiness, comfort, whatever) is not because
of God himself, it is because of their belief in God. They could be
worshiping a Giraffe (capital G hehe), and they would get the
same support, just because the support comes from within, not
from a diety (whether it is Giraffe or God).

I guess you could call everyone their own gods. ;)

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by scem0
I agree with malusconis. What Christians 'get' out of being
christian (support, happiness, comfort, whatever) is not because
of God himself, it is because of their belief in God. They could be
worshiping a Giraffe (capital G hehe), and they would get the
same support, just because the support comes from within, not
from a diety (whether it is Giraffe or God).

I guess you could call everyone their own gods. ;)


bust your chops yo!

nah... what do you know you are not christian.. right?


(im cool with you... dont take my responses personal.. i respect you... just for the record)

[krossfyter]

if my relations with God was dependent on "the goody good feeling" id be in a world of hurt.. it wouldnt last.


its more then that... its about PEACE inside.


peace is deeper then all that shizz.



;)

[wdlove]

God is with us in good times and bad, it is very important that we acknowledge him during the good times also. For he will never forsake us!

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by wdlove
God is with us in good times and bad, it is very important that we acknowledge him during the good times also. For he will never forsake us!


right. its very easy to forget about God in the good times.... take him for granted and such. in the bad times its on your mind a lot... i guess that a good thing!

[wdlove]

He has great patience, waits for us to acknowledge him. It just makes for an easier time if you know him during the good times. A solid relationship to tide you over when time are not good. He never gives us more then we can handle.