Dual 500 Mhz or 933Mhz?

[maclamb]

My office gave me a G4 400Gigabit. I am trying to decide if I want to put $700 into a DP500 Upgrade card from Sonnet (my own $ - I may be able to buy the machine later from the company - maybe not)
I do normal business/internet/email stuff, run OSX, Java, Apache-Tomcat, Powerpoint - no 3d, video or audio.
OR
Should I plop down $2100 for a 933 system that I would take to the office.
I also have a Ti667 I use at home.

I'm thinking of adding an ATA 100 or 133 and another 7200RPM IDE drive, some extra RAM I have sitting sround and the DP500 card - costs about $1100.
And I can reuse the drives later - and maybe sell the DP card if I leave the company.
And save my money for a G5 at home.

Basically I guess I'm asking if the 933 is going to be that significantly faster than the DP 500?
What would you do?

[mac15]

hard to say
there both lightning
dual 500
that what I like
but its up to you

[maclamb]

I'm thinking of adding an ATA card
will either an ACard 100 or 133 work in the G4 Gigabit System?

[crassusad44]

You might get a great deal on a Dual 800, if somebody still have them in stock (like I did). I would go for that, but hey, the 933 model is... quite... FAST!!!! :D

Oh, this is my 100th post! Wohoooooo! :D

[keithcobbett]

I'd say buy the 933. The bus speed is more and you will get more life out of it then spending half that cost on a dual 500 upgrade card and all the "others" that you need to purchase. Especially if you don't even own the 400 you are going to put the dual 500 in.

[networkman]

for what you do, they are both fast enough for the job so it is six of one and a half a dozen of the other

[AlphaTech]

You can install a Sonnet ATA100 or ATA133 card into that G4.

Be careful about the RAM though, make sure it is PC100 222 spec. and made by a good company/vendor. I have found that some memory, even though it is PC100, will not function in the G4's. Especially after the firmware update. That is because the memory was not up to spec. (cheap stuff). Anything that came direct from Apple, or is 222 has a 99% chance of working properly.

[MaxRool]

I would be interested if you do go the sonnet path because i have been considering it myself for my 400Mhz PMG4.
I develop with Tomcat as well.
I found memory was the biggest benefit. I use a 1 Gig. I also tried 1.5 Gig, but found no perceivable difference between 1 and 1.5. You may want to consider this as a good 'bang for buck upgrade.
The other thing I did was replace the Hard Drive with an IBM 7200 rpm ATA 100. This made a noticable difference to both startup and application load time.

However If I lived in the US I would seriously consider one of the 'model runout' DP800 as a cost effective upgrade.

Tell me how long does it take for Tomcat to startup on you machine and deliver the first jsp page? (mine takes about 30 seconds and I think there is something wrong with my configuration, but I can't find it).

[madamimadam]

Stick with the dual 500 under OSX, you down need the extra speed right now. You might need some more RAM and, possibly, a bigger hard drive but if you only email and stuff there is no need for a 933.

I was going to switch my 533 for a dual 500 but I do a lot of graphic and processor intensive work and the down sides to the DP500 over machines released later REALLY show up with this work. Email on the other hand takes up SO little processor and graphic power that I could use it at practically the same speed on a computer half as fast as I have now.

[maclamb]

Until I decide on the processor - I've orderd a 15,000 RPM SCSI Drive and Apdatec card - that should make quite a difference. :)
I will also upgrade the RAM to 1 GiG

I will then see how it responds -

[Ifeelbloated]

I got my 933 G4 Apollo the other day. See the icon -->:D -that is all the message I can relay.

[Ifeelbloated]

Oh by the way. Final Cut Pro 3 in OS X. My God man, it is a thing of beauty. :D

[madamimadam]

Originally posted by maclamb
Until I decide on the processor - I've orderd a 15,000 RPM SCSI Drive and Apdatec card - that should make quite a difference. :)
I will also upgrade the RAM to 1 GiG

I will then see how it responds -

JESUS, that's a bit of overkill, isn't it?
How much did that drive set you back?

[GigaWire]

933 totally, but not for US 2100

Acard ata card works fine in my DP 500 Gigabit

[MacAztec]

1) You WILL notice a faster speed; not many programs take advantage of a dual processor machine.
2) Much faster bus
3) Superdrive
4) Better Graphics
5) Its New :D
6) I know someone that upgraded processor cards, and it isnt the best thing to do...
7) You will get more out of new machine
8) Runs Mobile FCP3

[maclamb]

How can a super fast drive be overkill?

$305 US for a Seagate 18 G - see www.megahaus.com


Actually my price would be $200 US w/ the Radeon 7500 and no modem from Apple - Ed discount....

I'll let you all know how it performs tomorrow with 2x as much RAM and the faster drive.

It's just a *leetle* sluggish right nbow (IE - no flames or threads please ;)
and HD/Finder ops are slow - witht he drive and extra ram it should improve.

the question then will be - will the DP500 be enough....

:confused:

PS I stopped at CompUSA on the way home to pick up parts and played with a 733 and it was not bad - bet the 933 SCREEMS

[maclamb]

Tell me how long does it take for Tomcat to startup on you machine and deliver the first jsp page? (mine takes about 30 seconds and I think there is something wrong with my configuration, but I can't find it).

I won't get to this till this weekend.
I'll post again then - but my time is about same as yours, I believe...

[madamimadam]

Originally posted by Mac_User
1) You WILL notice a faster speed; not many programs take advantage of a dual processor machine.
2) Much faster bus

He is only using "normal business/internet/email stuff", why does he need the faster bus and faster processor?

3) Superdrive

Not really a necessity, is it; nice though.

4) Better Graphics

Better Graphics for those graphic intensive Microsoft Office programs

5) Its New :D

I'm gonna leave that one

6) I know someone that upgraded processor cards, and it isnt the best thing to do... [QUOTE]

It would all depend on which card you got

[QUOTE]7) You will get more out of new machine

Depends on your definition of more.... it will last longer but it will cost significantly more for the short time more gotten out of it.

8) Runs Mobile FCP3

What use does he have for that?

[maclamb]

I mostlyu ageree and lean that way---
But:

1) You WILL notice a faster speed; not many programs take advantage of a dual processor machine.
My understanding is that OSX _does_ use the DP correctly - it's not app dependant like OS9

2) Much faster bus - true
3) Superdrive - true
4) Better Graphics -true
5) Its New VERY true
6) I know someone that upgraded processor cards, and it isnt the best thing to do... - interesting - I might agree - like more opinions on this

7) You will get more out of new machine - plus if I add that 15K drive - it should basically float above the floor - no?
8) Runs Mobile FCP3 - don;t use it - but I get your point.....
:p

[MacAztec]

Infact, I am getting a new 933 pretty soon. I am ordering from apples education store. 2X80gig hard drives, 1gig RAM, and a 17in apple display. I really do hope you get the 933, I guarentee you will like it WAY better.

[MacAztec]

I think we have a jealous user on board. What use does he need for a faster bus? MORE SPEED! You cant say he doesnt "need the speed." Everyone needs more power. Superdrive is not a necessity, but he will burn a few DVDs i bet. Graphics are better for everything smart one!

[madamimadam]

Originally posted by maclamb
How can a super fast drive be overkill?

I'll let you all know how it performs tomorrow with 2x as much RAM and the faster drive.

the question then will be - will the DP500 be enough....

Because you have not claimed to do anything that needs such a drive and just sounds like a waste of money to me. Also, when are you going to use that much RAM.

The DP 500 will be more than enough; so many of you people just go stupid. There is something better so I need it.... **eerrrr** Inncorrect.

[MacAztec]

What are you thinking. He wants a computer that is going to LAST. I think you dont want him to have a faster computer than you. A 933 would last him a very long time.

[madamimadam]

Originally posted by Mac_User
I think we have a jealous user on board. What use does he need for a faster bus? MORE SPEED! You cant say he doesnt "need the speed." Everyone needs more power. Superdrive is not a necessity, but he will burn a few DVDs i bet. Graphics are better for everything smart one!

How am I jealous, I can have a new machine any time I like and I am sure I could get it much cheaper than he could but WHY? I am VERY confortable will my machine and I do MUCH more heavy processing than he does. Wake up guys, PowerPoint.X only needs a G3 and that is because it runs under X, a G4 400 would be PLENTLY for what he does but I could see justification for a dual 500... a 933, 1 Gb of RAM and a 15000 RPM drive... give me a break. If he had said he was a big graphic designer or, better yet, a 3D animator, I would be pushing for all that stuff but he isn't.

[madamimadam]

Originally posted by Mac_User
What are you thinking. He wants a computer that is going to LAST. I think you dont want him to have a faster computer than you. A 933 would last him a very long time.

A computer with a dual 500 will last YEARS; are you trying to tell me that you think in the next couple of years email and PowerPoint and Java will become obsolete to something that has a min requirement of a 933 with 1GB of RAM and a 15000 RPM HDD?

Come on, some of us here are actually down to earth. Just justify for me 1GB of RAM to run every one of the programs he mentioned at the SAME time.... it just does not happen.

[kansaigaijin]

get the dual processor machine. What everyone seems to miss is that OSX divides up the tasks so it is not necessary for the the apps to be dual aware. One dumb time consuming task can run on one processor while another dumb task runs on the other. and who knows what you will be doing in the future? also youcant have too much RAM. It is cheap. It is nice to have lots of apps open and ready to go. No waiting.
Enjoy.

[MacAztec]

Actually, RAM boosts your computer a lot. And, I wanted the 1GB of RAM for ME, not him. I really think you would get more out of a 933. It is NEWER, and has a WAY FASTER BUS. I mean WAY faster. It COMES with a good graphics card, and you can get an extra 80 gig hard drive for 50 dollars. That is if I was getting one. If I were you, I would buy a 933 with 512 RAM. You would be running great!

I am NOT saying a dualie is not a good computer, but a 500? I mean, its a great computer and all, but I think a 933 would do your normal stuff a little faster.

Mid..."why does he need all t he dual processing power for a small ammount of things" If you didnt notice, I was copying you.

Hey, why not an iMac? Get the 1499 model and you would be running pretty dam good.

[madamimadam]

Originally posted by Mac_User
Hey, why not an iMac? Get the 1499 model and you would be running pretty dam good.

Finally a statement I can agree to; if you MUST upgrade so dramatically, get an iMac. It would be FAR cheaper, FAR faster than what you need and it would outperform my machine by probably 2 fold (just proving the jealously factor).

[MacAztec]

Yea, an iMac would be pretty cool. Got a nice graphics card, and able to hold 1GB of RAM:p If you must go to a tower, I have found you a match. www.g4store.com has an 800MHz G4 for cheap!

[maclamb]

Wow - I didn't think I'd start such a war!

Couple of things.
The extra RAM is WAY necessary - I usually have Word, PPT, IE, PowerMail, Palm, Classic and Lotus Notes for OS open a the same time - not to mention also writing/running Java and all the other mini apps I have running.... So the extra RAM ( I actually will only get 896M) will definately be needed (have you run top lately and looked at memory usage/fragmentation?)

As for the hard drive - OK 15K might be over kill, but a 18G 10K RPM is $219 - so for 80+ $ more I get at least a 50% faster drive - sounds good to me...

I could almost see the IMAC.....but I will see what the drive and ram do - I think the DP wil be sufficent -

BTW - I think all computers are too slow by definition - timei si money - Einstein proved that and those milliseconds spent waiting to switch tasks add up!

[madamimadam]

Originally posted by maclamb
Wow - I didn't think I'd start such a war!

Couple of things.
The extra RAM is WAY necessary - I usually have Word, PPT, IE, PowerMail, Palm, Classic and Lotus Notes for OS open a the same time - not to mention also writing/running Java and all the other mini apps I have running.... So the extra RAM ( I actually will only get 896M) will definately be needed (have you run top lately and looked at memory usage/fragmentation?)

As for the hard drive - OK 15K might be over kill, but a 18G 10K RPM is $219 - so for 80+ $ more I get at least a 50% faster drive - sounds good to me...

I could almost see the IMAC.....but I will see what the drive and ram do - I think the DP wil be sufficent -

BTW - I think all computers are too slow by definition - timei si money - Einstein proved that and those milliseconds spent waiting to switch tasks add up!

I have 384Mb and I run IE, Word, Entourage, Classic, Photoshop, DreamWeaver, Powerbuilder, AppletLauncher, iTunes and a Terminal window on a 40GB 7200 RPM drive and I NEVER have RAM or speed trouble. I want a Rev2. G5 when they come out for when I do work in programs like Bryce or heavy Photoshop work but I don't NEED it (I don't use Bryce for money, only for pleasure). You are just getting caught up in the hype. Extra RAM does = Extra speed but ONLY to a degree. If you are not using the extra RAM you have then it is usless. I think 512MB would be perfect for me but I work quite comfortably with 384MB.

As for time = money, if you are looking to spend $2000 but you worry about every $0.01 then you should probably reevaluate your financial situation.

[madamimadam]

This thread reminds me of the masses of PC people who overclock their machines. With the money they spend on the small increase given by overclocking on items like cooling systems they could have just bought a better machine. I see the same for this adding 1GHz RAM and 15000RPM drive on top of a DP500 card and the ATA100 card, if you are going to do that you might as well get a real machine instead of slowly wasting money on stuff that goes a little faster.

[kansaigaijin]

but it is fun!
crank up the speed until it crashes.
adrenaline rush when you restart.

[madamimadam]

Originally posted by kansaigaijin
but it is fun!
crank up the speed until it crashes.
adrenaline rush when you restart.

ROFL, almost as big as the rush you get in a month to the local computer store when your chip burns out from running faster than it was designed for.
:)

[balliet]

Yes, overclocking is fun. Thats one reason people do it. Also it is not always possible to just buy a faster computer and not overclock. When the fastest cpu is Xmhz, and you want Ymhz, which doesn't exist, overclocking is the only way to get there. Not that this has anything to do with this topic, but it just looked like you were trying to say all pc users who overclock are dumb.

-Brian (a former pc overclocker, and a new owner of a dual 1ghz g4, which won't be overclocked :) )

[maclamb]

madamimadamtimallen

Well YMMV

I disagree about the RAM completely and I had 256M sitting around and got 512M for $100.

Both the SCSI card and Drive would work fine in either a 933/or even G5 or G6 when it comes out - and while I don't do 3D animation work - I do play with Electric Image and Strata as a hobby. And may do more or audio later. And the price difference is not all that great

So, I thnk my decison to get the ram and scsi/hd - for a total of $700 a good investment.
The drive isn't going to get SLOWER and I do believe that, except for Processor intensive ops, the RAM and HD are what most people see as machine speed.

As for the DP500? Well it's $700 for the card - as opposed to $2100 for a new 933.

So I think my steps are logical and make sense -
If I got the IMAC I wopuld be stuck with a machine I can't upgrade with a small (10*7) resolution - YUCK - for me I want the ability to run two (or more) monitors, plus add drives, cards as needed. A mchine to grow with.

My question was which is the better choice DP500 or 933.
I would love to see some benchmarks.
They are ~ equal in total CPU, but 933 is 1/3 faster bus (though I'm willing to be it's not that linear) and Apollo chip is faster - but how much?

I take the $600 out of the equation, b/c I can reuse it later -
So at most I blew $180 - and 80 of that went into "wasted speed" in your words.
I get paid that in 2 hours. And I'm willing to blow two hours of work for a VERY fast drive. Who knows - the whole systme might perk up (given swap space, etc).

[AlphaTech]

I have seen the benefit of pumping up the amount of RAM in a system. Even though I went to 1.5GB in my G4 tower, I doubt that I will go that high when I get my next one. I will probably get an additional 512MB (on top of whatever ships with it). I will either go with the drive Apple ships with it, and add a second one later if/when I need it. I have enough external drives to handle my needs for the moment (all FireWire).

It's amazing how much memory games want these days. I usually set UT to 512MB so that it goes full bore and doesn't crap out on me. Oni also wanted a good amount to run without going down. Photoshop always wants more memory, anything that you can toss it's way, it will suck up and beg for more. Especially when you scan negatives for reproduction later (100MB+ file sizes) and then manipulate them. I believe that Adobe recommends setting Photoshop's memory to about 4x the file size that you will be working with (if not more). Illustrator is more relaxed with what it wants, but benefits from either 128MB or 256MB allocated to it.

I found that the increased system bus, and other motherboard improvements that Apple made between my 604e machine and my G4 were more then enough to negate the benefit of faster spinning hard drives. This will especially be true if Apple starts shipping either ATA100 or ATA133 drives in their G4/G5 systems.

I wonder what kind of video cards will be standard issue in Apple's towers in about 6 months when I am ready for my new one. Until then, and after I sell my current G4 tower, I will have to 'suffer' with my 500MHz TiBook. I have it increased to 512MB of RAM, and am getting ready to replace the 20GB hard drive with IBM's new 60GB drive :D

[balliet]

Originally posted by madamimadamtimallen


ROFL, almost as big as the rush you get in a month to the local computer store when your chip burns out from running faster than it was designed for.
:)

If you overclock and you burn out your chip, you are doing something wrong. If the computer doesn't POST at a higher speed, you turn it off, its that easy. I have a celeron 300A that has been running 24/7 at 464MHz since I bought it.

[madamimadam]

Originally posted by balliet
Yes, overclocking is fun. Thats one reason people do it. Also it is not always possible to just buy a faster computer and not overclock. When the fastest cpu is Xmhz, and you want Ymhz, which doesn't exist, overclocking is the only way to get there. Not that this has anything to do with this topic, but it just looked like you were trying to say all pc users who overclock are dumb.

-Brian (a former pc overclocker, and a new owner of a dual 1ghz g4, which won't be overclocked :) )

For people who overclock there is almost always a faster machine. As a GENERALISATION, people with the most powerful computers don't overclock but people will the latest pentium do. The fact is, even in the PC world, there are faster machines than a regular pentium or athlon.

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by maclamb
madamimadamtimallen

Well YMMV

I disagree about the RAM completely and I had 256M sitting around and got 512M for $100.

Both the SCSI card and Drive would work fine in either a 933/or even G5 or G6 when it comes out - and while I don't do 3D animation work - I do play with Electric Image and Strata as a hobby. And may do more or audio later. And the price difference is not all that great

So, I thnk my decison to get the ram and scsi/hd - for a total of $700 a good investment.
The drive isn't going to get SLOWER and I do believe that, except for Processor intensive ops, the RAM and HD are what most people see as machine speed.

As for the DP500? Well it's $700 for the card - as opposed to $2100 for a new 933.

I take the $600 out of the equation, b/c I can reuse it later -
So at most I blew $180 - and 80 of that went into "wasted speed" in your words.
I get paid that in 2 hours. And I'm willing to blow two hours of work for a VERY fast drive. Who knows - the whole systme might perk up (given swap space, etc).

How are you planning to reuse the DP500 later??? I may be wrong, but I believe that even Sonnet says that they are not for the current generation systems (won't work in the Digital Audio systems forward). They could come out with newer upgrades, which would be nice. Who wouldn't love to see them come out with a DP933 or even a DP1GHz upgrade??

I intend to get a new system every 3-4 years. I am getting ready to replace my G4 500MHz in about 6 months, and will consider replacing my TiBook in about two years. I went and got the Apple protection on the TiBook, so when that runs out, I will look and see what is being offered. The only computers that I can actually get excited about are from Apple. I know more then a few people that look forward to the announcements to see what wonders are being released.

Currently, Apple is the ONLY computer company making innovations, and actually opening up retail locations. All the rest are closing doors, and laying off people, or have in the past few months.

When was the last time people lined up to get a look at a new *shudder* dell or such peecee??? Can someone put a muzzle on the dell commercial guy PLEASE!!! Either that, or give the guy some tranks.... Something to knock him out for the next few years :D

dude.. you getting a hell.. I mean dell, well, a PoC any ways.

[madamimadam]

Originally posted by maclamb
My question was which is the better choice DP500 or 933.
I would love to see some benchmarks.

Who needs a benchmark, the 933 is WAY faster.... I did see some comparisons on instructions per second here somewhere but I don't remember exactly what they were. The gist was that the Apollo really is much faster PLUS 1 processer = faster in classic except in stuff like Photoshop but the faster bus = one big improvement and NEVER forget that extra cache.

There is no question, the 933 is FAR better.

I think you should look at it like I do; the business owns my computer and I just bought an iMic (USB to analoge in and out) and extra RAM and that helps me make sure I can slowly just put aside a little here and a little there until MYSF (IMO) when I can (hopefully) get a Rev.2 G5. That way I have a machine now that is more than enough and I barely notice the money I am forking out for the machine which will be fast enough to make all stuff I do for pleasure in the 3D world look like a Photoshop sharpen on a 1MB image does on this machine.

[madamimadam]

Originally posted by balliet


If you overclock and you burn out your chip, you are doing something wrong. If the computer doesn't POST at a higher speed, you turn it off, its that easy. I have a celeron 300A that has been running 24/7 at 464MHz since I bought it.

I will admit it, I was just being a bit of a wanker to show my distaste for overclocking. Hey, I like to think different but, like Apple, when I think different I also like to think logical. If you can have fun and logic, life is SO much better.

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by madamimadamtimallen


For people who overclock there is almost always a faster machine. As a GENERALISATION, people with the most powerful computers don't overclock but people will the latest pentium do. The fact is, even in the PC world, there are faster machines than a regular pentium or athlon.

As a rule of thumb, 6 months (or less) after you get your computer, there are faster ones on the market. This is true in both the Mac and pc world. It is the nature of the computer beast.

One of the side effects of overclocking is excessive heat. That same heat will also degrade your system components. Even if you manage to eliminate most of it, some will leak into other parts of your motherboards architecture and shorten it's life span. The people that I have spoken with about overclocking have mentioned that it typically cuts the computer's life span in half, or less. A system that would normally last four years can burn out in as little as a few weeks, or last a few years, depending on how far they go and what is in the box. A good reason to not do that with an Apple, besides the fact that any overclocking voids your warranty. You do that, and forget about getting any service from Apple when it goes wacky.

[Onyxx]

Ok in case anyone else didn't notice this, this guy isn't running anything so processor intensive that he needs anything with 2 processors! he's not shell compiling, video editing, song composing, nothing like that; he's using the run of the mill buisiness apps that don't require more than a g3 processor to run! Here we are talking about a dp 500 (if you read the review on the sonnet dp 500 upgrade card you would realize that it's not all its cracked up to be) with 15k rpm drives, yada yada yada... for running word!

"darn this word document isn't scrolling fast enough for me! better upgrade to a dp 1 ghz or i'll go nuts!!"

this machine needs to be expandable why? a lot of people code on systems that are years old and have not upgraded them since. writing java is not that amazingly intensive that it requires the cream of the hardware top to compile it. But hey if you think you need a 360 gig 10krpm level 5 raid "java back up" connected to a dual channel scsi 160 card, i guess you might make it expandable, nah.

You need a 15 or 10k drive to do what, save your jscript to disk at lightning fast speed? If memory servers java is parsed to memory so you would want to spen your money on memory NOT an expensive, noisy drive (i work with them daily and prefer the silence of a good 7200 rmp drive anyday. And to tell you the truth there really isnt that much of a difference for short burst transfers to warrant the cost)

In my own opinion you want a fast, SILENT, moderately powerful machine for an office. Think about it, why would you want to listen to the constant high pitched whine of a 15 k drive all day? What about the fans on the back of the quicksilver case? I'm thinking iMac here folks. single 800 g4 w/ superdrive and a 15 inch lcd, decent graphics the works.

You don't need anything faster you really don't. and you can run a second monitor with the imac anyway. Or why don't you just bring your tibook into work? fast, second monitor, 1 gig ram the whole bit. And it has gig E (if you actually need it)

Still my vote is on the iMac. Nothing more, nothing less.

[madamimadam]

Finally, someone else who is actually on the level. I know that, on my machine, I am looking to get a PCI sound card for higher level audio production but previous to this I had NO trouble with the iMacs I had and the only expansion I ever needed was more HD space as I got more and more into video and more RAM as I started moving into more areas and, therefore, more simultanious programs. I know I don't need a new machine but if you WANT a faster machine, the 933 is better than a DP500, esp. when it is on an expansion card.

[AlphaTech]

Excellent points about how the latest and greatest isn't needed by everyone. I intend to get back into 3d/4d creation when I get the new desktop. I will also be updating my versions of Bryce and Poser to the latest to take advantage of their features. I do know that a faster processor (not faster hard drives) really do make a difference there. Video cards also help, so a high end video card does give rendering a performance boost. Essentially, it takes some of the task away from the CPU and renders it faster. I can hardly imaging what it will be like to render a world in Bryce 5 on a G4 of the next set. That is, assuming that Apple will be releasing processor speed bumps in the next 6 months or so.

I also have some other 3d applications, like Cinema 4d that benefit from faster processors and gobs of RAM.

Apple makes a system that fits just about everyone's needs. For people that want to run office and such, the iMac. For the student, running office and such, the iBook. For the professional on the go, the TiBook. For the serious power user running Photoshop, FCP, and other design and 3d applications, the G4 towers. It all depends on what your needs are, and what you plan to use the system for in the future. If you just see using it for email and such, go for an iMac. If you want to be able to increase the memory (more then just adding one chip) as well as adding storage later, go for the towers. If mobility is what you really want, then let your wallet decide if the iBook or TiBook are right for you.

Everyone should have at least one Mac system, whatever that happens to be :D

[madamimadam]

Originally posted by AlphaTech
If you want to be able to increase the memory (more then just adding one chip) as well as adding storage later, go for the towers.

I agree with everything except this point; I see no reason why could can not add 2 memory chips and extra storage to the iMac later on... they are both possible, just not user installable anymore (minus one RAM chip).

[maclamb]

Well, aside from the sniping, there was much here that has helped.
I have reconsidered the 15K drive ( i have a spare 10K and will try that first - _excellent_ point about the noise).
As for the DP upgrade, I am reconsidering - and will look at reviews - though it would have been helpful to give at least one link ;-).

But guys, I have to say, some of your arguments, while true on face value (a 15K hard drive to save word docs or write Java) no that's not what I was thinking.
I'm thinking I have to run lotus notes under classic till next release comes out, word and ppt both are sluggish (IMHO - but it's my time and patience - not yours, you cannot judge my experience - just as I don't judge yours) IE is slow and NS is worse.

And yes, I could bring my TI to work - but I ride a motorcycle and don't want to drag it back and forth everyday, and would rather leave it at home to act as a server...
BUT
Now I am thinking of getting the 933 for home/server/3d/audio/web design, and leave the ti at work.

now THAT may work well...

And More thing...I have two MC's - a BWM K100 - 12 yrs old and a 2000 K1200 - while I don;t ride croiss country - and short rides the K100 is fine and people mught say the K1200 is a waste - when I _do_ spend hours on it I appreciate the extras (smooth, for one) -
IAnd I thnk the same is true for a computer - when I hjavbe to use that thing 9 hours a day - the little things you dismiss (as in I should have more patience) become bigger.

I appreciate the technical opinions - the judgements not so much - I get the sense you are dissing me for wanting a really fast computer - but of course i was misreading all that , right :confused: :eek:

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by madamimadamtimallen
Finally, someone else who is actually on the level. I know that, on my machine, I am looking to get a PCI sound card for higher level audio production but previous to this I had NO trouble with the iMacs I had and the only expansion I ever needed was more HD space as I got more and more into video and more RAM as I started moving into more areas and, therefore, more simultanious programs. I know I don't need a new machine but if you WANT a faster machine, the 933 is better than a DP500, esp. when it is on an expansion card.

Very true... The new systems have larger pipelines that allow things to move faster through the system. Chances are, there are enough of those to make the 933 system out perform a system upgraded with the DP500. Find someone to buy the older system from you, or donate it to a family member that doesn't have a computer.

I am seriously thinking about donating my TiBook in two years (or so) to my niece and nefew so that they can see how even an old Mac can do more then a few tricks. They will be old enough by then to not trash the computer, and I will tell them that they had better not destroy it ;)

They love the fact that they can play any game that is dual platform on any of my Mac systems, but about half of them won't run on their fathers compaq PoC.

Anyone that needs an easy to use, easy to maintain/fix system should get a Mac. I know, I work on them all day long and prefer the Mac's to the few peecee's at the office (250 Mac's and about 45 peecee's). Those window boxes can be soooo picky sometimes... and it takes hours sometimes just to reinstall an OS. The LONGEST it ever took me on a Mac (aged system) was about 20 minutes, with the typical install being under 10 minutes. I have just created an installer with all of our Mac software that will reduce my configuration time to about an hour for a full bore install. That includes PhotoShop 6.0.1, Illustrator 9.0.2, Acrobat (full or reader), ATM/ATR, Adobe PS (8.7.3), Fonts (system and others), Quark XPress 4.11 (until we get version 5), office 2001 (with both updates), outlook 2001, FileMaker Pro (5.0 and 5.5). It has taken me most of this week to get the installer right, since it was my first attempt, but now that it is ready, it will make life even easier. Our corporate office used to provide us with a similar cd, but the last one we got from them was useless. That was many months ago, and I got tired of waiting and doing the installs the hard way.

I can hear the mantra starting in the background... "Mac's are superior"

[AlphaTech]

maclamb

I have a backpack bag for my TiBook that I use in the summer when I ride the motorcycle to work too. I am selling my 1991 Yamaha Virago 750 in order to get a 2002 HD Softail Standard (with some alterations before it leaves the lot). The new ride is arriving in March at the dealership and I can hardley wait for it.

I know that 10,000 rpm Seagate Cheetah hard drives are still louder then the ATA drives that ship in the desktops. I had a pair in mine until I got tired of the whining sound (from the drives) and just replaced the two with a 40GB Maxtor drive. The drive sound went down, which made it easier to use (noise pollution).

One thing you might want to consider picking up, is Norton Utilities, or System Works. I picked up System Works because it came with the latest version of NAV at the time, and I was upgrading from an older version of NUM. I boot off the cd (modified cd that I created with the latest OS installer along with DiskWarrior 3, and TechTool Pro 3.0.1) and run the utilities. I have found that running all three (DW then TTP then NUM) can fix slow systems (that shouldn't be that slow). M$ applications are known to be slow to respond, depending on the version, OS you have, and if you have run the updaters that m$ provides every so often. So far, they have released two updates to office for OS X (how long has that been out now???). I don't let TTP do the surface scan on the drives, nor check for conflicts or viruses. I have NAV for the virus checking, and Speed Disk does a better job at optimizing (faster too).

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by madamimadamtimallen


I agree with everything except this point; I see no reason why could can not add 2 memory chips and extra storage to the iMac later on... they are both possible, just not user installable anymore (minus one RAM chip).

I was referring to what is readily available for slots. While it is true that you can replace the memory chip behind door number two, I don't know if that will do anything to the warranty. The towers have three slots, and if both the iMac and G4 tower ship with one chip, you can still add two to the tower but only one to the imac.

For the extra storage in the iMac, unless you want to get into the guts of the system, you will have to go with external storage. With the tower, you can put a total of four drives inside it (including the ones that ship with it).

Either way, get what you can either afford, or really need/want to. Either way, just go smart, and get a Mac :D

[madamimadam]

Originally posted by maclamb
I'm thinking I have to run lotus notes under classic till next release comes out, word and ppt both are sluggish (IMHO - but it's my time and patience - not yours, you cannot judge my experience - just as I don't judge yours) IE is slow and NS is worse.

Don't blaim your machine for sluggish Microsoft products, so far I have been VERY disappointed with Microsoft for X speed. IE is slow and Word and Excel give me that spinning load curser sometime for AGES. Seems there are many OSX apps out there that are just not up to scratch yet but, I suppose, it is a BIG move port that much code in such a short time. Still, I used to love Office 2001 and IE5 for 9.

[madamimadam]

Originally posted by AlphaTech


I was referring to what is readily available for slots. While it is true that you can replace the memory chip behind door number two, I don't know if that will do anything to the warranty. The towers have three slots, and if both the iMac and G4 tower ship with one chip, you can still add two to the tower but only one to the imac.

For the extra storage in the iMac, unless you want to get into the guts of the system, you will have to go with external storage. With the tower, you can put a total of four drives inside it (including the ones that ship with it).

Either way, get what you can either afford, or really need/want to. Either way, just go smart, and get a Mac :D

There is no question at ALL that the G4 is more configurable than the iMac but you can change HDD and RAM. It requires a Apple Authorised Service Tech and some thermal paste though. :(

May I just mention... not happy about that one Apple. Sure, I can do that installation but 1) I should not have to learn about thermal paste and 2) user additions are SUCH a good selling point. Oh well, I can not be angry at something so beautiful for long.

[networkman]

i still see office 2001 for mac all over in stores and that must mean something

the move to os x will take more time than anticipated and some, designer/photoshop types, cannot move over until adobe gets its photoshop product out...and it better be good

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by madamimadamtimallen


There is no question at ALL that the G4 is more configurable than the iMac but you can change HDD and RAM. It requires a Apple Authorised Service Tech and some thermal paste though. :(

May I just mention... not happy about that one Apple. Sure, I can do that installation but 1) I should not have to learn about thermal paste and 2) user additions are SUCH a good selling point. Oh well, I can not be angry at something so beautiful for long.

I can see your point about that one. Maybe I am just spoiled, since I am under a month away from becoming Apple certified so that I can do such repairs at the office. Our company has made the arrangements with Apple so that we can work on our own hardware. It will make life easier for us, so that we can do the trouble shooting, then contact Apple with what we need for hardware and then do the repairs in house.

I just need to brush up on some more of the odd points that in the study material before taking the test. It would help if I could find out how much of what is in the study guide is actually on the test. As it stands, I know most of what is important, and can look up what I need when I need. I have been working on the Mac every day at work for over two years now, and am the lead tech for the office I work at. I know most of the hardware, and how to fix the software that we have. Most of the problems we encounter are due to either a m$ application, or is server/network related. Trying to access files off of a server that is in NJ from MA with 3Mb of bandwidth that is shared between about 250-300 people is no joy. We try to tell people to pull the files to their local systems and work off them there, but they don't listen. Then we hear about it when the computer is slow to open the file (gee imagine that).

[madamimadam]

Originally posted by AlphaTech
I just need to brush up on some more of the odd points that in the study material before taking the test. It would help if I could find out how much of what is in the study guide is actually on the test. As it stands, I know most of what is important, and can look up what I need when I need.Trying to access files off of a server that is in NJ from MA with 3Mb of bandwidth that is shared between about 250-300 people is no joy. We try to tell people to pull the files to their local systems and work off them there, but they don't listen. Then we hear about it when the computer is slow to open the file (gee imagine that).

Oh, service exams can be a b!tch; they tend to have a lot of tricky questions that you would never use in the real world. If you are all studied up and have anything you might not know at easy reach combined with an atmosphere where you can not be disturbed, you will kick it.

Good luck!

[maclamb]

I'm not blaming my machine - if I was I would use a PC to run M$ stuff - it definatley performs better under win2k - hands down, though there are features in Office x I like.

I belive it is best to get the fastest machine you can NOW - unless you are fgoing to turn the machine over every 6 months.

We get machines for 2 years (lease) - so I tend to spend a little extra $ to get perhpas more power than I need _today_
Who knows what we'll need tomorrow?

Do YOU buy only for today's needs?

Other points are well taken - some of the sluggishness of Notes is due to network issues, I'm sure.

While we can argue the negatives of M$ coding and code bloat (which will get worse as the OS gets faster) - we seem to be drifting into the philospohical territory of "Don;t encourage code (APP or OS) bloat - or the unremiting CPU MHZ escalation...." - It's a circular thing - more code = need fo rmore iron = more speed to "waste" on creeping featurism.

While, yes, I do particiate in this both consciously and unconsciously, as well as the macho who;s CPU is faster, bottom line:
I want a fast, responsive machine that will STAY fast and repsonisve for at least 2 years.

[networkman]

congrats alphatech on getting certified!

i took the safe route with my wife and we went the pc route since we are self employed and more than an hour outside of the center of the the bay area (california) makes fixing apple macs a tough living

there is one apple certified tech that i know of in monterey county but she is also, gasp, A+ certified for the pc...you have to in order to keep busy all the time and ensure a steady workflow

in the real world of being self employed though, tutoring new users can bring in some steady extra money and in more rural areas, it can be the lionshare of any techie's income

i do wish that there was a microsoft office user specialist certification for mac's version of microsoft office becuase that would also look cool on an apple tech's resume

ps - i like your impressive desktop and laptop comination

[madamimadam]

Originally posted by maclamb
Do YOU buy only for today's needs?

Yup, todays needs will not be much different from tomorrows needs. We are at a point in computing where only the handful NEED new machines.

[ThlayliTheFierce]

I don't know if you're a student, by the bookstore here at Cal Poly SLO is selling 867 w/superdrive for $1600. If you could get a hold of one of those, I'd go for it.

[maclamb]

And as with any addiction it has little basis in reality.

It took much reading and thought but I must say, early this morning I came to agree that I was getting fast stuff just to get fast stuff. Which is OK -0 but it was going to cost me $2000 just for "peace of mind" --
I returned the 15K drive and controller, decided not to get the MP (as was said - so I do TWO dumb things just slightly faster) - I don't do ANYTHING in parallel - so a 800, 867 or 933 would have been the better choice - but I also realized that much of the delay is network based or bad code - and no, the machine is not going to resolve that - or at least not $2000 worth.
Amd I get really tripped out on speed my Ti667 is FINE....

I did add more ram and that has helped (top no longer reports 4M avaialble)
Total cost $100

So, I got to work and found my machine JUST FINE for what I am doing.
imagine that ;)

It's HARD giving up that speed addiction.
So what did I do with the saved $ ?

Bought a different KB, mouse and am considering an ATA100 card and 60G ATA1000 drive as my main drive - and use the Maxtor (what is in it now - 30G probably 5400 RMPM) as my primary backup ( I also have a portable firewire drive as secondary backup and to move files b/forth to the house)

So, will I notice a speed up in things opening and finder related activities - or is the ATA100 overkill and I just need another drive.

I have saved about $1000 (by not getting the DP500 , scsi or 15K drive)
I'm planning to use $600 of it for the Apple 15" LCD to add to my desktop and run dual video.
Also is there a better, sharper, faster(;-) video card that you would recommend ? I have a Viewsonic 21" for my main monitor and want to add the Apple LCD as a secondary and wonder if the graphics on this model (G4 Gigabit) can be signifantly improved -
Now, more visual desktop space - THAT I can use...

Thanks again - tough rite of passage - perhaps one more of us could/(should?) make:)

[Onyxx]

Ok i really don't want to flame maclamb on his idea of "needs" but there are a couple of things that need to be said.

1) you don't need anything over 7200rpms (heck for what you are running that 5400 is just fine)

2) running a tibook as a server?!? they call it a portable computer for a reason.

3) ata 100 is more than over kill for you. (see former post on the "java raid" for further reinforecement of this point)

4) I run a powerbook g3 pismo as my portable VIDEO EDITING AND 3D CREATION machine. To this day I am quite impressed with its abilities to render in cinema 4d, edit in photoshop, play my collection in soundjam, cut in final cut pro, and send email at the same time!!!! This is a G3 400 mhz laptop with a 4200 rpm 20 gig harddrive, 576 mbs ram and a 14" lcd screen. It is also my main editing system. (since whenever i need something bigger i bother my friends for some "machine time") And you know what, it chugs away at what it does quite efficently for a 2 year old laptop running at 400 mhz and no altivec.
Personally i love the fact that I have a machine that most of my PC using (and many mac users too) would usually look upon as incapable at doing what i do with it. But so far i have done nothing but suprised the crap out of them with results to beat out their own systems (one of which mesures in at a heafty $33000 ; targa 3000 [beatiful card but everthing else sucks like a vacuum made by micro$oft] )

Just change you addiction from speed to efficency. Cull your system to just its bare essentials and you will be 20 times more pleased with it. This includes everything from your system (prebind if you use osx ; create a basic, lean, system folder in 9). This is were speed really happens. with a bogged down system folder i achieve 240.3 mega flops with a fractal test. With my lean and trim system i achieve 350.7 !! By the way your g4 should score anywhere from 900 megaflops to 1.1 gigaflops.

But if that sluggish scrolling is really bugging the heck out of you go and pump some money into that machine. but if you need to burn off money that badly I could give you my account # and you could wire the money there. heck i'll even pay the transfer fee.

[kansaigaijin]

I wasn't serious when I said that. You can also do two important tasks at once if you have to. I think this is where the big gains will be, MP and clusters.
Screen space is nice to have. Why not just chill for a few days before you spend anymore money. On the other hand, someone has to keep the economy going, no?

[maclamb]

1) you don't need anything over 7200rpms (heck for what you are running that 5400 is just fine)
* *4K060H3 * Maxtor 60GB/5400rpm Ultra ATA/100 Internal Hard Drive D540X Series * * $ 112.00
* *07N6655 * IBM 60GB/7200rpm Ultra ATA/100 Internal Hard Drive Deskstar 60GXP * * $ 125.00

for a difference of $13 - I;ll tale the IBM drive...



I did not say I would use the Ti as a server - just that I could resort to using it if I really need the speed....


I decided topass on the ATA card for now -

Still interested in the video card suggestions, though.

prebind if you use osx ; create a basic, lean, system folder in 9

please show comannds and what you mean by elan and mean 9? -
All extensions turned off?

[Ifeelbloated]

Is there a way I can hook up a stationary bicycle to my computer to make it go faster? I can pedal fast.

[Ensign Paris]

I would get the 933, I just don't have faith in upgrade cards!

Ensign Out

[chmorley]

It sounds like a nice dilemma to have.

And I'm tellin' you, Maclamb, try Mozilla for a week or so. :)

CJM

[maclamb]

Ifeelbloated:

You have it backwards-
Get a REALLY fast computer, and have it powert the bicycle!
That way you can travel while surfing the web!

jealous newbie. Sheeesh!

[maclamb]

OK OK I'm trying mozilla .9.8

:)

[chmorley]

Good. You won't regret it. It's ugly, but fast.

Chris