Apple Rumor Casualty... [Archive]

praetorian_x

Feb 8, 2003, 09:12 PM

Some thoughts:

1) Tough not to feel sorry for the guy. But, at the same time, he is putting proprietary stuff in publicly accessible (if not directly linked) areas. He should have known that was a no-no. At the end of the day, it is his responsibility.

2) Pbzone was out of line publishing his personal info. I think we can all agree on that.

3) Wouldn't it be nice if Apple and Moto gave normal road-maps? It would do two things: drive down the need for the insane rumor-sites surrounding apple (you know I love ya, arn). And it would make it possible to do real planning as an apple customer. As an example: If I *knew* that the 970 was going to be released next year, I would probably spring for a mid-level powermac now. As it is, that money sits in my pocket, hoping for an early 970 release. This problem is even more pronounced at the corporate level, where planning is more methodical, and the purchasers are even more risk adverse.

It's a pipe dream, I know, and I'm not suggesting Apple tell us all the products that are in the pipeline, but for established products, like the PM, a good roadmap would make our lives significantly better (if less exciting).

But what the hell do I know?
prat

wolfywolfbits

Feb 8, 2003, 09:16 PM

Geez I've made screenshots of stuff like this too.

Some apps that need to have a lot of prefs set, it's just easier getting every pref right and then taking a screenshot.

I do it at work with our ISO-Proxy client, I can't be bothered remembering or writting down all the settings so I got the network guy to get all the settings right, and then I took a screenshot.

Much easier than writting them all down!

Poor guy :(

edesignuk

Feb 8, 2003, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by dukestreet
I don't think anyone is to blame but him. If you go to his site most stuff is open and available, directory listing, etc.
Good point Duke, I hadn't visited his site. Having now looked at it I can't believe it just goes to a directory listing like that, with a folder called "Apple Internal", soooooooo stupid! :rolleyes:

MisterMe

Feb 8, 2003, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Nermal

He didn't realise the the files were shared, they were not sitting in his shared folder. He had a symlink to a different folder, which in turn had another symlink to the screenshots. It can be hard to notice this sort of thing, so don't be too harsh on him. Having read the young man's blog entry covering this issue, I find him to be both glib and self-serving. The young man's story does not add up. He claims that the photos in question were for his personal use. However, he also says that he had blurred the serial numbers in the pictures. Why alter the serial numbers of pictures no one else would see? Another thing--he seems to be all too familiar with covering his tracks. The sense that I get is that he inadvertantly left some information accessible, but it was too late to cover his tracks when he discovered his error. My sense is that his intended audience was his friends.

childlost

Feb 8, 2003, 09:35 PM

i feel so sorry for adam. is there anything we can do as a mac community? somebody please posts the address of the apple store where adam used to work. his weblog and his story touched me and many other people here. the guys at the apple store have to know.

Sun Baked

Feb 8, 2003, 09:43 PM

After all this, to still have directory browsing active at this time. :rolleyes:

Does not help his case if Apple decides to move forward, can't really blame pbzone (for posting the link they were sent). He made things way too easy.

MacWhispers

Feb 8, 2003, 10:06 PM

What a horror story...

I debate whether to post here or not, for fear of it seeming self-serving. But, I have to comment that a high-traffic Mac site, news, rumor, whatever format, has a tremendous power to screw up people's lives. At MacWhispers, I, literally, base every single item I publish on direct conversations with people working in the Mac supplier pipeline. A while back, I, personally, got creamed by some ugly web publicity, fostered by a high-traffic Mac site. I know how painful that can be. Now, I'm blessed to host a site pulling around 30,000 unique visitors each day; and, I take the responsibility that entails very, very seriously.

PBZone should never have run this young man's identity, nor posted direct links to his personal server space. And, while I'm venting, here's another one: no reputable site should have ever posted FTP security access instructions to the Toshiba storage site last week. I had the same information, but chose not to post the information, as nobody from Toshiba had given me permission to do so. If a directory sits behind a password, it is not "public information."

The tone of the article here is right: There is indeed a rabid, almost viscious intensity to the quest for Apple related product information. Understood. However, there simply must remain some bit of huma kindness, decency, and ethics in pursuing that chase. Information is neat, sure. But screwing a living, breathing person for that information flat isn't right, and it's not in the Mac community ethos to which I and all of my long time Mac friends subscribe.

PBZone was wrong.

Sonofhaig

Feb 8, 2003, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by childlost
i feel so sorry for adam. is there anything we can do as a mac community? somebody please posts the address of the apple store where adam used to work. his weblog and his story touched me and many other people here. the guys at the apple store have to know.

I doubt anything could be done.
Getting fired is very permanent.
Believe me, I know.

buffsldr

Feb 8, 2003, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by mozez
as much as i feel sorry for him, he took the screenshots, which i have to wonder why, if only for personal reasons, why do you need them, and second, taking those screenshots home is illegal, he did it to himself. maybe he didn't want to get fired, but if somebody leaked my stuff, i'd fire their ass. he's more upset he got caught, not upset about what he did. his mistake was taking the screenshots, not putting them on the web, that was an added mistake that made his mistake public. yes, that website went way too far with info, but any leak of apple stuff, or any companies stuff can have a dramatic effect on stock, compitition, and alot more.
a job at an apple store is fun and neat, but not a career, so i think he should feel lucky he's not being sued by apple and possible jail time, but rather just being let go, believe it or not, but he is lucky to just be let of the hook. he'll be fine in the end all of things. still, a sad day for rumors.

Snap. Well said, except the part about jail, that sounds a little out of the question. I do feel for the kid, but he's a little wiser now.

Edit: Just read edesignuk's post about the Apple_Internal directory. So i got curious and went to google. I typed in "Apple Internal" (with NO underspace, but i made sure i put the quotes around apple internal). Try it yourself then look on page two of the google results, you can see this guys website as a hit. Hit google's cache feature and you will see his old jpg file names. He has one called "case_detail.jpg"

The Wingnut

Feb 8, 2003, 10:38 PM

But the point is... it was an accidental post. A symbolic link to a symbolic link that he made by mistake.

I think pbzone's the real one at fault here.

DakotaGuy

Feb 8, 2003, 10:39 PM

Actually if you get a little deeper into his file directory you will find one heck of an iTunes MP3 collection...the speed of download off his computer is amazing...

nickmcghie

Feb 8, 2003, 10:51 PM

shouldn't it be illegal to post somebody's personal information online without the person's permission? if so, maybe pbzone can be sued or something?

Zion Grail

Feb 8, 2003, 11:02 PM

I seriously hope PB Zone is held accountable for that.

FredAkbar

Feb 8, 2003, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by Zion Grail
I seriously hope PB Zone is held accountable for that.

Same here. If someone supplies you with a rumor (accidental or not), you don't thank them by telling the world (and therefore telling Apple) their identity.

edesignuk

Feb 8, 2003, 11:14 PM

Looks like he is now sharing images from Digital Blasphemy, the hi-res ones that are in the (paid) members area. Digital Blasphemy will be pleased :rolleyes:

http://virga-x.adtn.net/graphics/

This guy is just asking to be sued for copyright infringment or something....:( :rolleyes:

DakotaGuy

Feb 8, 2003, 11:15 PM

after you get to the link where his log is...go to the website link on the left hand side and when you hit the file directory...go to projects...and there get the .mov file called "Kids are Alright" It is actually a great display of iMovie editing...and I am sure the most conservative people on this message board will find it fasinating...I say good for the kid to tackle a controversial issue like homosexuals...and you have to admit...what IS UP with that one dudes hair?????? Go and look at it. He even wanted people to go and get that file from what he left on the Google link...

DakotaGuy

Feb 8, 2003, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by edesignuk
Looks like he is now sharing images from Digital Blasphemy, the hi-res ones that are in the (paid) members area. Digital Blasphemy will be pleased :rolleyes:

http://virga-x.adtn.net/graphics/

This guy is just asking to be sued for copyright infringment or something....:( :rolleyes:

Oh yeah...he has tons of goodies...

peterjhill

Feb 8, 2003, 11:17 PM

First off, you can't go to jail for violating an NDA. It is a civil matter. They can sue the hell out of you, but you won't spend any time in the big house.

Second, I know someone who works for an Apple research group, and their spouse explained to me that if any word about any of the projects get out, no matter who told, that they would all be termnated and the group disbanded.

Pretty harsh.

Sun Baked

Feb 8, 2003, 11:21 PM

Are you sure this isn't some sort of sting by the Music industry?

Set up to catch a huge number of idiots downloading music and other copyrighted stuff...

kansaigaijin

Feb 8, 2003, 11:22 PM

he only has himself to blame.
too bad he lost his job.
It might also make it hard for him to get another one in his field. Who would hire a guy that would be so foolish then not understand what his responsibility was. Actually I think he will get it, in a few days or months, or already.

What is PBzones responsibility? at first I thought it was wrong refering to them as journalists, but then I thought here is someone being careless with thier employers information, kind of like embezzling, or taking home office supplies for personal use. What is the difference?

DakotaGuy

Feb 8, 2003, 11:22 PM

http://virga-x.adtn.net/projects/

There that is the link to the iMovie.

DakotaGuy

Feb 8, 2003, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by Sun Baked
Are you sure this isn't some sort of sting by the Music industry?

Set up to catch a huge number of idiots downloading music and other copyrighted stuff...

Well if this is...what is Limewire?

IndyGopher

Feb 8, 2003, 11:33 PM

First, no one posted anything that wasn't available on the site. It's certainly not like PBZone did any investigating. Second, why on Earth are you turning this jerk into a victim?? He did it. He meant to do it. He was sloppy in HOW he did it, but that should make him WORSE, not some sort of blue collar hero! I don't think he needs to be dragged to the village square and flogged, but he certainly doesn't need to be viewed as some kind of martyr. Lesson to be learned: Don't put anything in print (or on the web) that you wouldn't want read in front of a jury. Do they really not teach you people that anymore?

macphisto

Feb 8, 2003, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by dukestreet
You're all feeling sorry for his stupidity? I don't think anyone is to blame but him. If you go to his site most stuff is open and available, directory listing, etc. It was just a matter of time before someone found something.

I agree with Duke. If you are going to do something that would be considered "iffy" and possibly violate a NDA, then you should be prepared for the consequences. Publicly displaying information on your own web directory, and naming files as such ("Apple Internal") just begs for trouble. I feel bad for him, but what can you do?

coolsoldier

Feb 8, 2003, 11:46 PM

Send a petition to Apple requesting an apology:

http://www.petitiononline.com/apple123/petition.html

Include what Apple products you own--Tell them Apple enthusiasts are the reason they exist.

type_r503

Feb 8, 2003, 11:46 PM

Who is this Nick guy? Is Adam gay?

fuge

Feb 8, 2003, 11:48 PM

'nodding head'

dumb kid

better pray that more of his stupidity doesn't get him into trouble.

edesignuk

Feb 8, 2003, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by coolsoldier
Send a petition to Apple requesting an apology:

http://www.petitiononline.com/apple123/petition.html

Include what Apple products you own--Tell them Apple enthusiasts are the reason they exist.
Are you kidding me? He DESERVED to get fired for his stupidity alone! Don't get me wrong, it's a shame and I do feel sorry for him, but Apple were IMO right to sack him.

DakotaGuy

Feb 9, 2003, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by type_r503
Who is this Nick guy? Is Adam gay?

Oh yeah Adam is gay...if you read his journal entries before he talks about getting fired from Apple he talks about how cute this one dude is...

Gus

Feb 9, 2003, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by MacWhispers
What a horror story...

I debate whether to post here or not, for fear of it seeming self-serving. But, I have to comment that a high-traffic Mac site, news, rumor, whatever format, has a tremendous power to screw up people's lives. At MacWhispers, I, literally, base every single item I publish on direct conversations with people working in the Mac supplier pipeline. A while back, I, personally, got creamed by some ugly web publicity, fostered by a high-traffic Mac site. I know how painful that can be. Now, I'm blessed to host a site pulling around 30,000 unique visitors each day; and, I take the responsibility that entails very, very seriously.

PBZone should never have run this young man's identity, nor posted direct links to his personal server space. And, while I'm venting, here's another one: no reputable site should have ever posted FTP security access instructions to the Toshiba storage site last week. I had the same information, but chose not to post the information, as nobody from Toshiba had given me permission to do so. If a directory sits behind a password, it is not "public information."

The tone of the article here is right: There is indeed a rabid, almost viscious intensity to the quest for Apple related product information. Understood. However, there simply must remain some bit of huma kindness, decency, and ethics in pursuing that chase. Information is neat, sure. But screwing a living, breathing person for that information flat isn't right, and it's not in the Mac community ethos to which I and all of my long time Mac friends subscribe.

PBZone was wrong.

Nice to hear from an "insider". Thank you for your post. I would have to agree with you 100%, and keep up the good work on your site.

Regards,
Gus

DakotaGuy

Feb 9, 2003, 12:05 AM

Hey Gus I did not realize...we are neighbors buddy...I live about 20 miles from the Nebraska border up near the Vermillion-Yankton, SD area...

technocoy

Feb 9, 2003, 12:11 AM

First of all i know this kid,

he sold me my powerbook 1ghz and when apple was to crappy to call me and tell me that my ram was in two months after i had recieved my Ti, adam was the only one considerate enough to take it upon himself to contact me and get my ram, he also installed it and i must say is one of the most professional and pleasant employess i have encountered at ANY retail store... He also didn't think anything of the screenshots, who thinks that screen shots of the retail software you use are rumor bait?? duh, i can look at the screen as i'm standing there purchasing things. maybe he was lax in not fully understanding the all-encompassing non-disclosure agreement, but i don't believe adam had any foul intentions. and as for his mistakes as a computer guru... HE IS A STUDENT, RETARDS, NOT A PROFESSIONAL.

I for one think that adam should sue the hell out of PBZone for posting his personal info, even though it was readily available. the thoughtless, reckless actions they took with his personal info are borderline malicious... we in the rumor mill are all full aware of what happens to apple employees who leak info, and PBZone should have exercised more responsibility in there actions.

I think this was a mistake on adam's part which was capitalized on by powerbookzone, and now a young man is out of the job, over retail store software screenshots...

Adam if you read this, i work for a big production company downtown raleigh, and i will try to hook you up with some filming and editing work... replay to this post, and i'll email you my info. we do commercials and internal film, video, tradeshows and multimedia for IBM, Ericsson, Sony Ericsson, UNC Chapel Hill, Audi, and Motorola... Hope things work out for the best, i know first hand that you were a good salesman, and knowledgeable mac-guy.

Technocoy

macphoria

Feb 9, 2003, 12:20 AM

Adam Attarian:
He made a mistake by posting personal/sensitive/corporate materials online where people could, inadvertently or deliverately, stumble onto it. I do feel sorry for the guy though, we all make mistakes. But does he deserve to get fired? Yes.

PBzone:
Did they have the right to post things they found online? In my opinion, yes. Far as I am concerned, if certain material is online and it is not secured or instructed legally not to be shared (which then would have been secured anyway), then it is pretty much public domain. But was it ethical? No. If they had sense of courtesy, especially considering the material was obviously personal, they should have checked with the owner before posting its information. But, do they deserve any blame? No.

Apple:
Should they reinstate the guy? It is up to them. But frankly, if I were running the company, I wouldn't. Was it right to fire the guy? Yes.

G4scott

Feb 9, 2003, 12:42 AM

http://virga-x.adtn.net/sysinfo/

look at his uptime... It may just be me, but I don't think the G4 has existed for 12000 days...

This guy definetly needs to make all of this stuff passworded or something, because he is soooo vulnerable...

If you browse around, you can find his AIM SN

xDANx

Feb 9, 2003, 12:44 AM

as adam described in his weblog, the screenshots he took were of an application called 'vantive' which is a database application that apple uses to track customer information, purchases, serial numbers, applecare info, etc. if you've ever called apple for tech support or to buy something then whatever personal information you gave is stored in that database. the main issue with posting screenshots of vantive is that it could violate apple's privacy policies by having sensitive customer information posted on the web. adam claimed in his weblog that the vantive screens were of his own personal information...which probably makes no legal difference in apple's eyes, but makes the whole thing seem pretty insignificant in general. not that managing to have those images viewed by someone who has the capacity to fire him was a great display of common sense, but it's hardly a huge offense.

as for apple's reaction, i don't find it surprising or inconsistent. i worked for them doing frontline technical support on the phone for about a year and they are not a nice bunch of people. while i admire the products they create, i find that they treat their employees with serious disrespect. a huge portion of apple's tech support is contracted out to firms specializing in phone based customer support (such as the one i worked for)...contracting out benefits everyone but the actual employees. we were instructed to lie to customers if they asked us any questions related to who we actually worked for...as far as anyone who called in knew, they were talking to someone who worked directly for apple. getting threatening e-mails sent to all employees about keeping our mouths shut when we left work was not uncommon. the point is that apple's reaction to adam's indiscretion is fully consistent with how they treat their employees in general, and not very fair.

and BTW, it's been over a year since i worked for apple and so my non-disclosure agreement so longer applies.

MacWhispers

Feb 9, 2003, 12:54 AM

This whole incident raises an important question.

Just what are the rights to materials many of us have posted on our web servers? Does the fact that they are "accessible" make them public property?

I, briefly, failed to have an index.html file in my root directory a couple of weeks ago, inadvertently leaving all of my files there open to simple browser access. That's fixed now. But, during that two-day period, did the whole world have a "right" to rummage through everything there, grab whatever they might want, post direct links to those files?...

What ever happened to the concept of "permission?"

Just because I can gain "access" to a place does not somehow empower me with the "right" to be there.

If my neighbors go to work and forget to lock their home, does that give me the right to enter their house and begin rummaging through their property?

This is a challenging idea, one that bores straight to the root of the nature of the internet.

I, personally, don't believe being crafty enough to enter a place without the owner's permission somehow embues me with the right to do so.

I am startled by people who post here with comments based around the idea that, "If he was silly enough to have th files on his server..." Whoa... hold on a minute... Are these people claiming that, if someone has property in their house, and leaves the garage door open, everybody in the world is somehow entitled to enter, plunder, and publish?

This whole line of faulty reasoning scares me.

Folks, the last time I checked, I could have a chair sitting just inside a glass window at the front of my house, one that everyone walking by could see; and, I could have my front door unlocked, and not be at home. If you walk by under these circumstances, is that then (somehow) your chair?

I think this is an important issue. What do you think?

animationkid

Feb 9, 2003, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by technocoy
First of all i know this kid,

he sold me my powerbook 1ghz and when apple was to crappy to call me and tell me that my ram was in two months after i had recieved my Ti, adam was the only one considerate enough to take it upon himself to contact me and get my ram, he also installed it and i must say is one of the most professional and pleasant employess i have encountered at ANY retail store... He also didn't think anything of the screenshots, who thinks that screen shots of the retail software you use are rumor bait?? duh, i can look at the screen as i'm standing there purchasing things. maybe he was lax in not fully understanding the all-encompassing non-disclosure agreement, but i don't believe adam had any foul intentions. and as for his mistakes as a computer guru... HE IS A STUDENT, RETARDS, NOT A PROFESSIONAL.

I for one think that adam should sue the hell out of PBZone for posting his personal info, even though it was readily available. the thoughtless, reckless actions they took with his personal info are borderline malicious... we in the rumor mill are all full aware of what happens to apple employees who leak info, and PBZone should have exercised more responsibility in there actions.

I think this was a mistake on adam's part which was capitalized on by powerbookzone, and now a young man is out of the job, over retail store software screenshots...

Adam if you read this, i work for a big production company downtown raleigh, and i will try to hook you up with some filming and editing work... replay to this post, and i'll email you my info. we do commercials and internal film, video, tradeshows and multimedia for IBM, Ericsson, Sony Ericsson, UNC Chapel Hill, Audi, and Motorola... Hope things work out for the best, i know first hand that you were a good salesman, and knowledgeable mac-guy.

Technocoy

Hey, Technocoy... I know Adam as well... I am not a close friend of his, i am as people would say a "friend of a friend" though i still talk to him on occasion. I wrote him an e-mail telling him that i had my sympathy's for him and asked him to e-mail me back... I do not know if he does read the forums around here but i will try and make sure that he gets your post.

For everyone else that has posted negative things about adam, just understand that you do not know who he really is in real life. I know for fact that if adam knew that the information was secretive then he would not have even taken the screen shots.

That is all for my venting.
JAM

arn

Feb 9, 2003, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by MacWhispers
Just because I can gain "access" to a place does not somehow empower me with the "right" to be there.

If my neighbors go to work and forget to lock their home, does that give me the right to enter their house and begin rummaging through their property?

Interesting thought... but not really a valid comparison. If people put something on their web server, then I don't think people should expect it to remain private.

Now, obviously, people make mistakes... and that's a shame...

but a better analogy is placing your stuff on the sidewalk... if you leave something you actually wanted to keep there by accident... well, that's "your fault" and it would be a shame if someone took it... and we would hope people wouldn't take it... but there shouldn't be any true expectations of privacy.

Now... there is a queston of "responsible" linking... especially with sites such as Slashdot which have an enormous ability to affect another site's traffic, bandwidth. And of course, something like this... where the person didn't indend to post the information.

That being said, I think it is a shame what happened here and feel very bad for adam.

arn

Skywalkers hand

Feb 9, 2003, 01:17 AM

How does him being gay have ANYTHING to do with this?

Skywalkers hand

Feb 9, 2003, 01:17 AM

I wrote PBzone and he wrote back with this reply that he said he also sent to Adam:

Adam,

I'm only going to reply with one fact for you.

At 1:00 PM central time, an Apple employee in tech support at Austin sent
emails to the following people letting them know of your website and its
images:

1) Apple corporate security
2) Your boss (listed on Apple directory)
3) His own boss (in Austin)

At 1:20, assured that PBZone.com's involvement wasn't going to matter, I
posted the story.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

Thanks,
Doug

technocoy

Feb 9, 2003, 01:18 AM

I appreciate it...

tech;)

richie

Feb 9, 2003, 01:30 AM

Got that email from Doug too... it makes what he did a lot more understandable. :/ Adam was stuffed from the beginning.

Xerov

Feb 9, 2003, 01:36 AM

not to sound insensitve...Sucks that he lost his job..but what is done is done...and I did sign the pettition...

Does anyone have the Screen Shots...or know of a Website that posted them?

macphoria

Feb 9, 2003, 01:38 AM

-----I, briefly, failed to have an index.html file in my root directory a couple of weeks ago, inadvertently leaving all of my files there open to simple browser access. That's fixed now. But, during that two-day period, did the whole world have a "right" to rummage through everything there, grab whatever they might want, post direct links to those files?...

They don't have the "right" to go through your stuff, but they can. If you don't want something to be viewed online, you should always protect it.

-----If my neighbors go to work and forget to lock their home, does that give me the right to enter their house and begin rummaging through their property?

That is not valid comparison. First of all, things online are more of intellectual property, whereas what you are talking about is tangible property within your territory. Is your server space territory? Yes. But you sometimes allow people access to it and sometimes you protect it. Same thing you do with your tangible territory. But difference is we are talking about intellectual property not a chair. If you had giant purple Barney doll and it was in clear view in your window, people can go around and tell others about it. If you didn't want it to be viewed, it should have been hidden. This is not same as physically taking your tangible property.

-----I am startled by people who post here with comments based around the idea that, "If he was silly enough to have th files on his server..." Whoa... hold on a minute... Are these people claiming that, if someone has property in their house, and leaves the garage door open, everybody in the world is somehow entitled to enter, plunder, and publish?

This is similar to the whole issue of paparazzi. What they do is, at least most of the time, not illegal. But highly unethical.

-----Folks, the last time I checked, I could have a chair sitting just inside a glass window at the front of my house, one that everyone walking by could see; and, I could have my front door unlocked, and not be at home. If you walk by under these circumstances, is that then (somehow) your chair?

If someone had left access to his/her server and I had ability to teleport his physical hard drive into my livingroom via internet connection, that would be stealing and which is more in line with what you are talking about. Again, we are talking about intellectual property here.

-----I think this is an important issue. What do you think?

I absolutely agree. But it seems what is at issue here is more of ethics than technicality or legality. PBzone technically could view this fellow's server content because it wasn't secured. But it was not very ethical, not obtaining his permission to post his personal materials.

springscansing

Feb 9, 2003, 01:55 AM

Originally posted by type_r503
Who is this Nick guy? Is Adam gay?

Yes, I'm having sex with him.

springscansing

Feb 9, 2003, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by Skywalkers hand
How does him being gay have ANYTHING to do with this?

Seriously... aren't all mac users gay? I got my girlfriend a powerbook for Christmas and I've caught her oogling some girls now.

Coincidance? I think not.

MacWhispers

Feb 9, 2003, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by macphoria
I absolutely agree. But it seems what is at issue here is more of ethics than technicality or legality. PBzone technically could view this fellow's server content because it wasn't secured. But it was not very ethical, not obtaining his permission to post his personal materials.

You know, I land at different positions every time I try to reason through this. The whole idea of the web, as an inherently public medium challenges many of our traditional stances toward "property rights," to their core.

On the one hand, nearly everyone would instantly agre that pulling an original piece of artwork from one site and using it on your own, without the artist's permission would be both unethical and illegal.

At the same time, the idea of linking to that piece of art from your site would be considered both ethical and legal, if a proper credit was associated with the link... even though the link is without the artist's explicit permission, and that the link saps costly bandwidth from the artist's site.

Bit, what if the image is not displayed on the artist's web page? What if it's just one of many files inside an innocuos directory, one of many on the artist's web server? Is the link ethical then? Is it legal? What if the root directory is passworded, but someone sends you the acces info, and you post a direct link (with the security acces info embedded)? Is that wrong? Is it illegal?

What if the server's not passworded at all? What if, instead of an artist's server, with images, it's an attorney's server, with client meeting notes? Would pulling and making public those notes be moral?... legal?

A doctor's server, with patient case notes? A company server, with internal business correspondence?

A personal server, with archived materials intended to help the owner with his job?

Is mis-purposing private materials wrong?

The answer to all of these questions can be found in an ancient concept called the Golden Rule.

How would you feel if it was done to you? If the answer is, "Damn, that would suck if somebody did that with my data," then I think it's unethical to do it.

Should we all safeguard our data as best we can? Of course. But, again, this parallels the specious argument that a woman wearing a short dress "deserves" to be raped. If we have server security that's short of a certain standard, does that make us repsonsible for someone taking and mis-purposing our data?

It's all enough to cause sleeplessness. And, I'm not sure where the hard and fast answers lie.

macktheknife

Feb 9, 2003, 02:47 AM

I don't think anyone's going to dispute that Adam was negligent and foolish in leaving those photos on his server accessible to everyone. The real issue here, IMHO , is how careless pbzone was in publishing the kid's personal info without a thought about the consequences. Adam's actions were a product of neglect and foolishness. While pbzone's act was not malicious in nature, it was intentional.

Although pbzone has made it clear that it published the story only after other Apple employees had been notified (and hence wouldn't have made a difference concerning Adam's fate), it should still make you think: An incident like this should remind us how quickly our personal information can spread throughout the Internet--and how that information could be used for or against us. :eek:

longday

Feb 9, 2003, 02:52 AM

Originally posted by springscansing

Seriously... aren't all mac users gay? I got my girlfriend a powerbook for Christmas and I've caught her oogling some girls now.

Coincidance? I think not.

I know I'm a macgay, and I know of at least 3 other macgays. I'm pretty sure being gay must use the same part of the brain as being a Macuser. More open to alternative thinking. (i.e. gay & MacOS versus straight & Windows).

Seems perfectly logical to me javascript:smilie(':)')

macphoria

Feb 9, 2003, 02:57 AM

-----On the one hand, nearly everyone would instantly agre that pulling an original piece of artwork from one site and using it on your own, without the artist's permission would be both unethical and illegal.

MacWhispers, first of all, I appreciate you candid and passionate discussion about this. I do agree with your sentiments about the gray areas regarding privacy and property. And I'll try to respond to you not for the sake of rhetoric or debate, but to share my own thoughts and offer you a different view.

If someone were to take my artwork from my server, which was not secured, then it would be upsetting. But it would have been no one's fault except my own. If someone were to take my artwork and then post it in his/her server claiming it as his/her own, I would be extremely upset. But still, it would have been my fault. Up to this point, it is all just matter of ethics. However, things can escalate beyond ethics. Now, if this someone were to benefit/profit using my artwork, getting a job or making money off of it, then this is no longer matter of ethics. It is then technically stealing because certain value exchanged hands and the beneficiary is not the creator of said artwork.

In this situation with PBzone and Adam that doesn't seem to be the case. PBzone seemingly posted said information online for the sake of sharing it with other Mac enthusiasts. There is no clear proof that PBzone directly profitted from posting contents from Adam's server. It is possible that due to this incident, which demonstrated PBzone's ability to gather information, they could perceivably increase their traffic and have more visitors clicking on their advertisers and generate some kind of revenue. But this is arguable at best and still does not clearly demonstrate benefitting from taking someone's intellectual property.

So the situation here, as far as I am concerned, is not about legal right or wrong. It is about ethics. And unfortunately ethics cannot be enforced. Perhaps some clever lawyer could draw up a documentation on how PBzone wronged Adam. But I am no lawyer and do not see any legal wrong doing on PBzone's part, even though their action was clearly unethical.

rainman::|:|

Feb 9, 2003, 03:56 AM

Interesting to hear of more gay users on the boards. maybe we should have another coming out thread...

now i'm sorry, but data on your computer is on private property, and it should be considered private. i don't care if the thing is websharing or just left filesharing on accidently or something... it's still clear to me that accessing confidential material, however poorly protected, is not just public domain.

i feel for him... and as someone emailed him, he is really cute...

pnw

garyhoare

Feb 9, 2003, 05:10 AM

I have never, ever seen a rumor article before that posted someones personal information.

Anyone know the personal information for the guy who runs pbzone.com?

Look at the tone of the article. It was malicious.

"First, it appears the employee that posted the files is one Adam Attarian. . ."

Who does this?

They saw that it was a low-level employee who didn't have access to Apple Legal, and they said, "Huh. What's he gonna do to us. Screw him."

I'm surprised it didn't have "nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah" at the end of it.

foniks2020

Feb 9, 2003, 05:37 AM

now i'm sorry, but data on your computer is on private property, and it should be considered private. i don't care if the thing is websharing or just left filesharing on accidently or something... it's still clear to me that accessing confidential material, however poorly protected, is not just public domain.

Just to make this clear from a legal POV, the web is public. If the guy had had to 'break in' on the other hand he would be guilty of espionage, etc. Anything accessible via the web is public. If you don't take precautions like securing your pages, you are SOL. This is an unfortunate case but he is guilty of negligence. It's like saying "I didn't know the gun was loaded, I'm soooo sorry you're son shot himself in the head with it, it should have been locked up and not loaded."

I know that's extreme but it is a accurate comparison.

There have been several incidents with multi-national corporations losing millions because employees posted confidential info on their webserver in a public directory, even though there was no obvious link to it (think a path like this: www.domain.com/kajlsfjlas/dsfljldfj/dglagjldsj/dlsajfdlagljsl;/somedirectory/secretstuff.pdf

Obscurity does not equal security.

So learn how to use .htaccess at least.

Better yet don't put your secrets any where near your webserver. Yes he made an honest mistake but well, it cost him his job. I would lose my job too if I let company secrets out, even the most inane... even worse if I left a back door that would compromise other employees. Imagine if this guy had left a password to the Apple network in that directory, not just screenshots.....

niji

Feb 9, 2003, 05:41 AM

i urge all of you to visit the sleezeball site otherwise known as www.pbzone.com and register yr feelings about this issue.
if you go the site, and read the way they have phrased the matter, there is obviously something more to this story than just posting of an boy's files.
there is really something more evil about this. pbzone goes out of its way to actually post private details about this.
how many other sites do you know that would post these kinds of details, especially when they dont come from the person who owns the info?
total abuse of the net's power. using the net to destroy.
pls pls go to their site, and voice yr disapproval of their action.
how can we shut them down?
two days into this and no apology.
real scumbags.

HasanDaddy

Feb 9, 2003, 06:14 AM

Adam may have been stupid, but PBZONE are a bunch of JERKS!!!

They should've kept him anonymous

trp

Feb 9, 2003, 06:27 AM

I agree, what Adam did was stupid, but he is a kid. What pbzone did was inexcusable they are supposedly professionals. All I can do is boycott pbzone AND all of its sponsors. I encourage others to do the same.

Arcady

Feb 9, 2003, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by garyhoare
Anyone know the personal information for the guy who runs pbzone.com?

I have met the guy who runs it. I have pictures of him from a party at macworld. However, I would not post them, or any of his information, because I don't want to be an ass like he has been.

Funny part: One picture has him and Ryan Meader in it. Two jerks in one picture!

Floop

Feb 9, 2003, 07:46 AM

The kid was negligent. He knows this and admits this, and realises that Apple didn't have much of an alternative but to fire him.

For the people on these boards shouting out how he was negligent and deserved to be fired... save your breath. Adam already said it and he realises it.

I'm inquisitive, I take screenshots of things without knowing why, and I can soooo see how his snapshots were discovered by someone else on the web. I don't believe he was intending to leak them, I think he is just an Apple Geek like some of the rest of us (including me) who are in awe of the technology.

I feel so bad for him. I don't know what an Apple Store job pays.... but it doesn't matter. I would love to work in one, for the communal aspect of Apple Geeks Being Together! Seriously, Apple Users are in a minority and we really only make a wide circle of aquaintances with other Apple Users over the web, not often in person.

Working in an Apple Store, with other people who love the technology and with whom you can share your knowledge and learn from others, while help bring new customers to the platform, must be frickin' cool. The store itself is cool. Going to work at CompUSA won't be the same. And damn if I would like a black Apple T-shirt.

People like those at PBZONE are assholes. I love rumors as much as the next guy, but a rumor site goes so far as to not only post internal Apple pictures taken from a hidden part of someone else's website, but to not even give them the good grace to let them know you've done it and INSTEAD publish a detailed account of who this person is, you are a scumball sleazebag extraordinare.

I do not buy their claims that an Apple Employee alerted them to this, I see this as them trying to back track. I mean come on, once these pictures were discovered by Apple, the time between them finding out and firing the guy would be minimal. Bang, you are gone.

Are we to believe that the PBZONE source is sufficiently high up at Apple that he would hear about this impending dismissal so quickly, and by the same token stupid enough to immediately talk to a rumor site himself? Jeez, give me a break.

They are responsible for this guy's firing and they should own up and apologise, then shut their stupid site down and contemplate the consequences of their actions, luckily for them their actions don't have the sort of repercussions that Adam's actions have had for him.

I wish there was some way Apple could, instead of firing him, discipline him then take him back. But I doubt that would happen.

ADAM - GOOD LUCK IN EVERYTHING ELSE YOU DO. YOU COME ACROSS AS HONEST, THOUGHTFUL, INTELLIGENT, DESPITE THIS FIASCO! YOU WILL SUCCEED. P.S. TELL YOUR PARENTS THROUGH TRUTH... IN YOUR OWN TIME.

Sun Baked

Feb 9, 2003, 07:46 AM

After the last story about the leak and subsequent civil suit against Jose Lopez in December, this is a news story if pbzone decided to make it one -- and they did.

Does it suck for the guy it's happening to, yes.

Did pbzone do something wrong, no more than every other news organization in the business.

Is this going to snowball a bit, probably.

Is Adam at the cusp of some real trouble in his life, most definitely.

Though the ball is entirely in Apple's court.

In a civil and/or criminal case, everything you say or do will be used against you. And Apple Legal has plenty of ammo, the web journal and the lag in pulling the copyrighted info and mp3s will hurt.

It's a little too late now, but immediate lock-down and absolute silence on the subject is the only "safe" alternative when faced with possible civil liability.

:(

Good luck Adam...

Megaquad

Feb 9, 2003, 08:09 AM

I just emailed him on webmaster@pbzone.com telling him how much of a jerk he is.. I encourage other to do the same.

HornetOSX

Feb 9, 2003, 08:40 AM

So Let me get this right ..... An apple employee in austin( funny his name and info seem to be missing........) reported Adam at 1 so then this unnamed employee or one of the 2 supervisors, or Apple security took the time to call / e-mail the PBzone operator and told him that this had happened???? YEAH RIGHT .. not even a clever lie.... Like I said why dont we see the names of these others involved in the story? I mean if your going to do the news might as well fully report it.

What we have with all of Adams info posted is a WITCH HUNT.. It would seem to me the owner of the PBzone one Doug Landry of Delta Design
which is located at

[edited]

seems to have an issue with Adam. Might it be he is openly gay ?

if it was not a witch hunt and simply a news story why would THIS have been posted
UPDATE 14:52 CST--The images on the employee's server are no longer reachable at the above address. He moved the port for web traffic from 80 to 8080, and took the images down completely.

WTH?? he tries to start correcting a mistake and you JUMP ON HIM MORE??? That is WAY WAY out of line. Doug I think your a JERK and a bigot.

Why was this post edited ??? all of the info I gave came from doing a whois on thepbzone.com website?????

KLFloyd

Feb 9, 2003, 08:46 AM

I agree with most of your posts...yes Adam was negligent and I do feel very sorry for him. However, I don?t think he meant to do any harm; he seems truly devastated by the loss of his job at Apple. I know I would be.

Two additional points to add?

1) I hope all of you here in the MacRumors community who are outraged by pbzone leaking Adam?s personal information send an email to them to show your disapproval. Although they did nothing that was technically illegal, it was without a doubt unethical. Let?s flood their email boxes with complaints on behalf of this young man and perhaps he will get some kind of public Apology.

2) To Adam if you may be reading this, I know right now you?re devastated about the loss of your job, but I think once the dust settles and emotions cool a bit you should go back to your store and setup an appointment to speak with the store manager. From your weblogs it seems you have a good working relationship with everyone at the store. I then think you need to share you feelings with the store management the same way you?ve shared them in your journals. You know what you did was wrong, but you feel very bad about it, etc. Although the final say is up to Apple whether you get your job back, at the very least perhaps your store manager would be willing to write a letter on your behalf that you can give to future employers who will no doubt need to verify your previous employment and check your references. This will probably help you in the future if there are any questions from your future employer about this incident.

Best wishes to you...

niji

Feb 9, 2003, 08:53 AM

can you pls write to both of these places and tell both of these companies which are involved with pbzone that we do not approve of their support for pbzone, and that they both should announce to us what their involvement with pbzone is.
thnx very much.
www.smalldog.com
www.macdebate.com

pianojoe

Feb 9, 2003, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by Skywalkers hand
How does him being gay have ANYTHING to do with this?

It's just that some people are suprised when somebody lets it show instead of whispering about it.

BTW, this boy goofed. I'm sorry he got fired. He did it without thinking (which is why so many bad things happen in the world. Like the next war we're going to start in a moment).

I disapprove the way PBZone handled the case. It is an intelligent rule of survival in journalism not to endanger your sources. Now what did they do?

(Sort of) destroy a source for the benefit of spreading (extremely lame) inside information.

Show off by naming the source, for the sole purpose of getting him into trouble thus underlining their "investigativeness".

Congratulations! Wow, how cool these PBZone people must be!

O.K. i know what you're going to say. As a proper citizen we're all supposed to report anyone who breaks the law. That's the moral standard in our society, but it's not my moral standard. This might be because I was born with a brain. Check your point of view, your moral standards supplier (and your brain if you feel like it).

What will happen? In the future, everybody who might even have considered to leak anything to PBZone will drop the idea. Thus, PBZone will turn from a lame site to an extremely lame site vanishing in the dark holes of unimportantness where they belong.

Personally, I will reject links from PBZone to any site I administer. Furthermore, I think these guys should be denied the use of Macintosh hardware for, say, 5 years.

_________

It's desirable that those who yield power
recieved wisedom equal or greater than the power they yield.
(Whishful thinking)

niji

Feb 9, 2003, 09:05 AM

doug@deltadesign.com

QuiteSure

Feb 9, 2003, 09:12 AM

I don't care if Adam was at fault or if PBzone was at fault. It happened. The consequences have happened. Adam, like all of us, must now understand the critical difference between what has happened and what is still to come.

What has happened cannot be changed. We can learn and comment but not amend events which are even one minute in the past. For those of us in the macrumors community, if it in any way improves our lives (speaking purely subjectively), then certainly, we can blame, judge, condemn, forgive, ignore. But Adam must move on. Although he cannot impact the past, he can affect the future.

First, remove any even vaguely offensive items from his directory. Commit no further "crimes."

Second, stop feeling sorry for himself. Every minute of his life that is spent in self-pity or self-condemnation is a minute wasted. Learn from mistakes, certainly, but attempt to be dispassionate.

Third, focus on the strengths of his life and use them to bring future happiness and success. He is obviously intelligent, skilled and conscientious. It appears he has good people skills. These will hold him in good stead as he moves forward in his life.

In a week or less, the rest of the world will have forgotten this. Only Adam will remain as a testament to this mistake. I sincerely hope that he can put this to rest in his own life. After all, if we have learned anything it is that the world is remarkably forgiving to those who mistakes, whether they be college freshmen or U.S. presidents. In the end, our most pernicious judges are ourselves.

Good luck to Adam and all who have ever erred.

Hattig

Feb 9, 2003, 09:19 AM

Yeah, the kid made a mistake, although considering how easily accessible the folder is from the "website" it would have happened sooner or later.

However the actions of pbzone are despicable. Not only do they post all the personal details (for no reason that I can think of, except to explicitely get him fired, and possibly thrown from his course - otherwise WHY mention that?), but they stalked him regarding the port change and the files being taken down, etc.

I think it is pretty clear that Apple didn't contact pbzone, and that the owner contacted Apple, or just posted the story without contacting Apple. I wouldn't expect much truth from this guy. Why do I say this? Because Apple would not have wanted the screenshots to be published online or linked to in a story.

jeffff

Feb 9, 2003, 10:44 AM

Adam Attarian has been the victim of an unnamed attacker who searched through his site index and posted information that Adam did not offer to the world. Yes, the information was findable on his site, but he did not provide anyone with a link to that information. The fact that PBZ followed his move to 8080 -and posted it!- is unconscionable.

This information doesn't constitute a rumor, a tip, or any other kind of freely offered information. It is not journalism. IMHO, it's the first cousin to breaking and entering.

By pilfering these screenshots AND attaching Adam's name, Powerbook Zone has caused Adam to lose his job. He did not violate the NDA. It was violated for him by Powerbook Zone, causing him monetary damages, pain, and suffering.

If I were him, I'd hire a lawyer and sue the hell out of Powerbook Zone. IMHO, he'd own the creeps, lock, stock, and barrel by this time next year.

I'm not him though, so I just contacted Powerbook Zone's advertisers (whom I patronize) to ask them if they want to support these kinds of ethics. I hope others do the same.

DeadlyBreakfast

Feb 9, 2003, 11:22 AM

What a crybaby...He F'ed up. Get another job...Stop crying to the world. Lots of other people have it alot worse then him...

He should ****

G4scott

Feb 9, 2003, 11:22 AM

Wow... This thread is turning into a witch hunt. I remember seeing this thread at shashdot about how they found the home address of some guy who was responsible for the majority of the spam that fills your inboxes, and posted it online. Everybody was encouraged to sign him up for every free mailing thing that they could find. It was truly hilarious.

I do think that pbzone was wrong in posting this guy's personal info. They probably got anxious, thinking this was some big rumor, so the put up all of the info. Unfortunately, it just turned out to be some internal applications, and a guy getting fired.

Freg3000

Feb 9, 2003, 11:25 AM

I feel bad for him, even though it was partly his fault. :(

On a separate note, I like this little touch Arn:
"Apple Rumor Casualty...
Approved/Edited by arn on Saturday February 08 07 57 PM
from the not a good thing department"

Instead of from the rumors department, it was from the "not a good thing" department.

The little things are the best. :)

jeffff

Feb 9, 2003, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by MacWhispers
This whole incident raises an important question.

Just what are the rights to materials many of us have posted on our web servers? Does the fact that they are "accessible" make them public property?

This is a critical point.

If I drive my car to a public parking lot and accidentally leave it unlocked, am I granting anyone the right to enter it?

If I set my lunch box on a picnic table and walk away for a moment, does that give anyone the right to open it?

One might say, 'You'd be a fool to do those things, because people will steal from you in an instant!'

Correct. They will steal.

In a very few years, the internet will be regulated like the public place that it is. We don't live in an anarchy, we live in a democracy, and people will soon demand a minimum of protection.

Let's face it, no one would go downtown to a baseball game if there weren't cops around.

kettle

Feb 9, 2003, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by longday

I know I'm a macgay, and I know of at least 3 other macgays. I'm pretty sure being gay must use the same part of the brain as being a Macuser. More open to alternative thinking. (i.e. gay & MacOS versus straight & Windows).

Seems perfectly logical to me javascript:smilie(':)')

Bigot.

I'm pretty sure being straight uses the part of the brain that stops humans from abusing their own and other peoples sexual organs.

This kind of bull is the driving force behind the P.C. movement.

By the way, I'm born in December and that gives me the intellectual measure of the other eleven twelfths of the world.

Did you know that 80% of statistics are made up and that more than half of the population has to live on a below average wage.

this really is a witch hunt, I wonder if witches float or drown?

Duff-Man

Feb 9, 2003, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by HornetOSX
What we have with all of Adams info posted is a WITCH HUNT.. It would seem to me the owner of the PBzone one [snip] of Delta Design
which is located at

[snip]
Duff-man says.....here all you people are berating and slagging pbzone for posting personal info and now you resort to the same thing....just a tad hypocritical, no? i thought "an eye for an eye" went out with the dark ages. oh yeah!

longday

Feb 9, 2003, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by kettle

Bigot.

I'm pretty sure being straight uses the part of the brain that stops humans from abusing their own and other peoples sexual organs.

This kind of bull is the driving force behind the P.C. movement.

By the way, I'm born in December and that gives me the intellectual measure of the other eleven twelfths of the world.

Did you know that 80% of statistics are made up and that more than half of the population has to live on a below average wage.

this really is a witch hunt, I wonder if witches float or drown?

OMG That whole comment was tongue in cheek, you're trippin.

Sun Baked

Feb 9, 2003, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by jeffff
This is a critical point.

If I drive my car to a public parking lot and accidentally leave it unlocked, am I granting anyone the right to enter it?

If I set my lunch box on a picnic table and walk away for a moment, does that give anyone the right to open it?

One might say, 'You'd be a fool to do those things, because people will steal from you in an instant!'

Correct. They will steal.

In a very few years, the internet will be regulated like the public place that it is. We don't live in an anarchy, we live in a democracy, and people will soon demand a minimum of protection.

Let's face it, no one would go downtown to a baseball game if there weren't cops around. You are talking information, not physical property.

If you paint your name on the mailbox, are you going to be pissed that someone knows your name?

If you use a credit card to buy gifts for your mistress, are you going to be pissed your wife finds out? And what if it's her account to begin with?

If you put a bunch of photos, mp3s, movies on the web for people to look at and copy, are you going to be pissed that they look through every folder you leave open?

Is a company going to be pissed that you leave a super secret widget covered by a NDA in plain view on the front seat of your car in a newspapers parking lot?

What happens if you take the new Chrysler prototype car out to lunch to impress the babes? Hope the plaque in braille that warns to not take picture works, even if you left it in the trunk...

If you leave directory browsing enabled, and leave your website 100% open with no html front-end -- where's the line between public and private?

Oh that's right, it's private because you haven't told anyone about it -- but you did leave a link back to it on slashdot. ;)

[edit - left out a word, while information is a form of property, it gets a little harder to define when you go to the police station]

kettle

Feb 9, 2003, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by longday

OMG That whole comment was tongue in cheek, you're trippin.

ditto

except I'm assuming you're dim rather than on drugs

jante99

Feb 9, 2003, 12:49 PM

About this open webserver issue. Some companies have sued people for accessing information on a webserver that is not directly available (like in this case) under the DMCA. But in my opinion these are really stupid lawsuits.

Adam really does not have a case for sueing pbzone though since pbzone was acting as a journalists. Since Adam broke his NDA he broke the law. This instantly makes him a public figure and hence can be covered by the news media.

Also if you read the pbzone they clearly state that Apple already knew about the postings since the pictures were originally found by other Apple employees. Adam was caught even before the pbzone knew about the pictures. Pbzone is not to blame.

This hoepfuly proves once and for all that NDA are real and if you break them you will be fired.

Sayer

Feb 9, 2003, 12:49 PM

I have some problems with his "story."

First of all why did he screenshot various internal software that Apple uses for tracking repairs of Mac hardware? Software that manages lots of personal information about the customers of Apple Computer, Inc.

The guy states that in addition to screenshots of the Apple software displaying his own information "I had one screenshot of open repairs for the store, but all the names and SNs were blured out." So he realized that *someone* other than himself would see these images and thus obscurred serial numbers and names to protect this info. Innocent victim my ass.

Why were these screenshots saved to a directory on a WEB SERVER? Just about any directory on a web server can be accessed publicly even if there is no HTML file located within. In fact without an HTML file you get a nifty directory content listing!

From this guy's posts he's obviously web server (Apache)-savvy including bits like these: "[I] looked at the virga.log from apache" and "I grep'd the access_log." and also "[I] even null routed anything in the 17.0.0.0/8 block." All of these tasks are performed by UNIX-savvy Apache web server users, not dumb "I can barely turn on my Mac let alone upload a folder of blurred screenshots of Apple internal software and info" people.

So how did he goof up and put screenshots in a publicly accessable directory on his personal, fully public, web server which he linked to in a post to the largest geek news site in the world (thereby assuring lots of web-server savvy people would see it)?

Frankly I have no respect for this guy. He was a complete and utter dumbass for doing what he did. He knew he was doing *something* wrong because he obscurred info in the screenshots (if only he saw them why would he need to obscure the info?). And he obviously knows his way around an Apaache-based web server including which directories are publicly available.

Bravo guy! Hopefully you won't take a job at the FBI or other government agency any time soon and upload troop movement information to another public web server directory and post a link to the server on an Iraqi message board.

Dont Hurt Me

Feb 9, 2003, 01:08 PM

For some reason society no longer wants to look at things as right or wrong. They want to blame everyone and their mother except for the person screwing up. Just like good old Saddam. Lets give this a million shades of grey instead of just say Saddam you are screwing UP. This is the same, he screwed up! Black and white. Sounds like he was a good worker though and if so he will find work!

jeffff

Feb 9, 2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by Sun Baked
You are talking information, not property.

Some information is property. Apple's actions clearly demonstrate that!

Adam has suffered monetary damages. Whether or not he is truly negligent may be determined by a jury. I'll bet on Adam.

Personally, I hope PBZone has to spend a bundle to defend themselves. An ambitious lawyer might take up Adam's cause on a contingency basis.

This case has all the makings of a big-time trial: 1) A name brand player (Apple), 2) A babe-in-the-woods (Adam), 3) A malicious fiend (PBZ), 4) The bigotry angle (Cha-Ching), 5) Internet Privacy.

I can't wait for the headlines!

arn

Feb 9, 2003, 01:21 PM

hey all...

everyone's entitled to their opinion... however, let's not make this into a "witch hunt" of sorts.

arn

pseudobrit

Feb 9, 2003, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by jante99
Since Adam broke his NDA he broke the law. This instantly makes him a public figure and hence can be covered by the news media.

He didn't break any law, he violated a contract.
He suffered the consequences of that error. If Apple could prove he did what he did on purpose with malice, and it cost them money they could sue him for damages, but in this case, I'd say the only who'll lose money is him. Stop categorizing him as a criminal.

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me For some reason society no longer wants to look at things as right or wrong... Black and white...

Really? I'd say things were the other way around. Most people like things to be black and white, good and evil, right and wrong. People like a fairy tale with its clearly defined villain and for things to be simple so they don't have to think about mitigating factors or silly things like evidence and proof.
When someone steps in and calls for reason and further discussion, the simpletons accuse them of supporting evil or being cowards and dismiss them.

Sun Baked

Feb 9, 2003, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by jeffff
Some information is property. Apple's actions clearly demonstrate that!Yeah, I had caught that before you posted.

In your example...

If you leave the car door open and catch someone entering the car to take the stereo and the $100 on the front seat, it's real easy to go to have the guy arrested.

However, if you leave a page of sensitive information on the front seat and someone takes a photo of it -- they may have "potentially" stolen far more than a few hundred bucks. But try getting a police office to arrest a guy for taking a photo of your car.

Can't really use the physical property angle to describe information.

Mr. MacPhisto

Feb 9, 2003, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by coolsoldier
Send a petition to Apple requesting an apology:

http://www.petitiononline.com/apple123/petition.html

Include what Apple products you own--Tell them Apple enthusiasts are the reason they exist.

I'm not signing a petition for a guy who posts internal material to the web like that. I don't understand why it was even on the web as such either if it was personal. Besides, he's not much of a computer-science student if he couldn't tell that that was in a public directory. PBZone may have linked it, which is questionable, but this kid knew what he was doing and got caught with his pants down. Having had similar information a couple years ago when I worked for IBM, I always handled internal docs and info with great care. Besides, if you truly like the company you're working for, why would you want to post internal info that could weaken competitive advantage. You might think it's harmless, but you have no idea what a comptetitor might think. If anyone should issue an apology, Adam should issue one to Apple.

Mr. MacPhisto

Feb 9, 2003, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by xDANx
as adam described in his weblog, the screenshots he took were of an application called 'vantive' which is a database application that apple uses to track customer information, purchases, serial numbers, applecare info, etc. if you've ever called apple for tech support or to buy something then whatever personal information you gave is stored in that database. the main issue with posting screenshots of vantive is that it could violate apple's privacy policies by having sensitive customer information posted on the web. adam claimed in his weblog that the vantive screens were of his own personal information...which probably makes no legal difference in apple's eyes, but makes the whole thing seem pretty insignificant in general. not that managing to have those images viewed by someone who has the capacity to fire him was a great display of common sense, but it's hardly a huge offense.

as for apple's reaction, i don't find it surprising or inconsistent. i worked for them doing frontline technical support on the phone for about a year and they are not a nice bunch of people. while i admire the products they create, i find that they treat their employees with serious disrespect. a huge portion of apple's tech support is contracted out to firms specializing in phone based customer support (such as the one i worked for)...contracting out benefits everyone but the actual employees. we were instructed to lie to customers if they asked us any questions related to who we actually worked for...as far as anyone who called in knew, they were talking to someone who worked directly for apple. getting threatening e-mails sent to all employees about keeping our mouths shut when we left work was not uncommon. the point is that apple's reaction to adam's indiscretion is fully consistent with how they treat their employees in general, and not very fair.

and BTW, it's been over a year since i worked for apple and so my non-disclosure agreement so longer applies.

Contracting out tech support info is common practice - as is making people unaware of it. IBM did it when I worked for them, still does. The big companies usually aren't the ones that ensure people stick to the NDA, it's the small companies. Why? Because they have a big NDA with the compmany they contracted out to. They don't want you to do anything because if you do, they'll get sued by Apple and lose the contract.

I know people who actually work for Apple in Cupertino. They love it. They get to refer to Jobs simply as Steve, and they are encouraged to enjoy what they do. It's never the same when working for a contractor. That's because the contractors are too busy worrying about their margins and $$$.

jeffff

Feb 9, 2003, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by Sun Baked
...if you leave a page of sensitive information on the front seat and someone takes a photo of it -- they may have "potentially" stolen far more than a few hundred bucks. But try getting a police office to arrest a guy for taking a photo of your car.

That's true, you won't be able to get a police officer to arrest him. But you can certainly use the legal system, particularly if that person has caused you monetary damages as a result of their actions.

In your example, if the person taking that photo causes you to lose your job as a result of the photo, and their actions are furthermore on the public record, the photographer could well be liable. Don't forget, there are real damages here.

I think this case is actionable. Let PBZone prove they did no wrong in a court of law. Adam has nothing to lose, if he can get an ambitious lawyer to take his case.

Mr. MacPhisto

Feb 9, 2003, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by MacWhispers
This whole incident raises an important question.

Just what are the rights to materials many of us have posted on our web servers? Does the fact that they are "accessible" make them public property?

I, briefly, failed to have an index.html file in my root directory a couple of weeks ago, inadvertently leaving all of my files there open to simple browser access. That's fixed now. But, during that two-day period, did the whole world have a "right" to rummage through everything there, grab whatever they might want, post direct links to those files?...

What ever happened to the concept of "permission?"

Just because I can gain "access" to a place does not somehow empower me with the "right" to be there.

If my neighbors go to work and forget to lock their home, does that give me the right to enter their house and begin rummaging through their property?

This is a challenging idea, one that bores straight to the root of the nature of the internet.

I, personally, don't believe being crafty enough to enter a place without the owner's permission somehow embues me with the right to do so.

I am startled by people who post here with comments based around the idea that, "If he was silly enough to have th files on his server..." Whoa... hold on a minute... Are these people claiming that, if someone has property in their house, and leaves the garage door open, everybody in the world is somehow entitled to enter, plunder, and publish?

This whole line of faulty reasoning scares me.

Folks, the last time I checked, I could have a chair sitting just inside a glass window at the front of my house, one that everyone walking by could see; and, I could have my front door unlocked, and not be at home. If you walk by under these circumstances, is that then (somehow) your chair?

I think this is an important issue. What do you think?

The home analogy doesn't apply to the internet. You own your home (or at least are making payments to eventually own it). I'm sure you'd find that courts would rule that any unprotected data is open for public consumption.

Also, if you do leave your home unlocked, how likely is it that insurance would pay if something is stolen? How serious would police take you? Not very. If you leave your house unlocked then you are negligent, even if it is an accident - and you may not recover anything that is taken. Same goes for the web. If someone hacks in, then it is illegal. If you leave things open, tough luck. I believe legal precedent may have already been established on this one. Adam got caught making things public that he ought not to have. Why post these pics on a server? They seem to have had been there for awhile. If he was worth anything, then he would have realised they were public. I for one don't post private stuff and not check where I've put it - just like I always check that my car or house door is locked when I leave. PBZone should have been more discreet, but Adam's stuff comes up on a google search for Apple Internal. All his info is right there. If a rumors site posted this info without names, locations, etc then people could have found it anyways.

jeffff

Feb 9, 2003, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Mr. MacPhisto
If you leave your house unlocked then you are negligent, even if it is an accident - and you may not recover anything that is taken.

What country do you live in? U.S. citizens enjoy much more protection than that. In the U.S., you cannot enter someone's home without their permission. Locks have nothing to do with it. Nothing.

I guess, in your example, I can just tell the police that I'm not a burglar, because the door was unlocked. Good plan!

Sun Baked

Feb 9, 2003, 02:16 PM

Roger1

Feb 9, 2003, 02:16 PM

Seriously... aren't all mac users gay? I got my girlfriend a powerbook for Christmas and I've caught her oogling some girls now.

Coincidance? I think not.

Maybe you two can find one to share;)...looking, that is.

sfoalex

Feb 9, 2003, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy

Originally posted by MacWhispers
What a horror story...

I debate whether to post here or not, for fear of it seeming self-serving. But, I have to comment that a high-traffic Mac site, news, rumor, whatever format, has a tremendous power to screw up people's lives. At MacWhispers, I, literally, base every single item I publish on direct conversations with people working in the Mac supplier pipeline. A while back, I, personally, got creamed by some ugly web publicity, fostered by a high-traffic Mac site. I know how painful that can be. Now, I'm blessed to host a site pulling around 30,000 unique visitors each day; and, I take the responsibility that entails very, very seriously.

PBZone should never have run this young man's identity, nor posted direct links to his personal server space. And, while I'm venting, here's another one: no reputable site should have ever posted FTP security access instructions to the Toshiba storage site last week. I had the same information, but chose not to post the information, as nobody from Toshiba had given me permission to do so. If a directory sits behind a password, it is not "public information."

The tone of the article here is right: There is indeed a rabid, almost viscious intensity to the quest for Apple related product information. Understood. However, there simply must remain some bit of huma kindness, decency, and ethics in pursuing that chase. Information is neat, sure. But screwing a living, breathing person for that information flat isn't right, and it's not in the Mac community ethos to which I and all of my long time Mac friends subscribe.

PBZone was wrong.

MacWhispers, as much as I enjoy your site, you couldn't be more wrong. None of these rumor sites have Apple's permission to post any of this stuff. Think Secret leaves a anonymous email link. You, yourself go to people who do not have the permission of their employment to speak to you. Ethics my @ss, none of you have ethics. It is okay for me to speculate based on my own opinion. Some make great observations and can come close to the mark. Speculation is very fun, but I also know people at Apple and I have yet to ever ask them a single question about anything related to Apple. I don't play that game where I ask them to anonymously tell me something. I don't invite people to break their NDA. I don't invite so called people who overheard something that never signed an NDA to speak to me. That's just a bunch of bull and you know it.

If you ask me, you guys are the problem. You invite this on to yourselves because I guess you think you are special some how. You guys make a business out of releasing information you should have at all. PBZone does exactly what you guys do. You're not in this for anyone but yourselves. You want hits, you want the money and you want the popularity.

Why don't you focus more on helping the Macintosh community than spewing out this trash.

By the way, sorry to say this, I think Adam has some talent there and I hate to see this sort of thing happen, but come on, taking screen shots of corporate systems... If he didn't know he was screwing himself, he ought not work for Apple. As if he didn't know how private they try to be. If anything, I wouldn't want a kid like that working for me either. So he decides what to blur and what not to blur in an image? I don't think so... He should not be taking snap shots of anything and posting them anywhere, end of story. Heaven knows what someone with his thinking would do had he come across real information of new products. He is simply not using his head. At Apple, that is a bad thing, plain and simple.

arn

Feb 9, 2003, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by sfoalex

If you ask me, you guys are the problem. You invite this on to yourselves because I guess you think you are special some how. You guys make a business out of releasing information you should have at all. PBZone does exactly what you guys do. You're not in this for anyone but yourselves. You want hits, you want the money and you want the popularity.

Why don't you focus more on helping the Macintosh community than spewing out this trash.

This is a topic I've thought about a lot...

First of all.... the info posted on PBZone could have been posted anywhere. If I had received a link for screenshots... I certainly may have posted a link to them. On a personal note, I would not have if I had known they were accidentally posted by an Apple Store employee... nor would I have posted his personal info... mostly because I don't want anyone to get fired... or sued. etc...

That being said... frequently, other "leaked" items are posted... such as the 20.1" LCD Specs on TCO's site... do I know for sure that someone at TCO didn't get fired over that? I kinda doubt it... but I don't actually know for sure.

What this comes down to is the ethics of rumor sites...

I guess I feel that rumor sites exist because of intense interest in Apple.... not the other way around. This sort of rumor-hunger was not created from rumor sites. Rumor sites are the product of the interest.

That being said... rumor sites are the low end part of that which is journalism. I'm not saying it's noble or anything... but the same issues you'd run into with any news source. Are there not news stories from sources which could get people fired? It's not isolated to "rumor" sites. For example, if George Bush accidently left some controversial documents exposed on his personal website... you can be sure the mainstream media would pick it up... and whoever does his web work would likely get fired.

I guess in the end, people should expect to be responsible for what they post to the public... that being said... I do think sites (including rumor and other) do have a responsbility to not maliciously link or try to expose people in an effort to "hurt" them (by getting them fired). Obviously, depending on the webmaster, your milage will vary.

arn

pseudobrit

Feb 9, 2003, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by Mr. MacPhisto
Also, if you do leave your home unlocked, how likely is it that insurance would pay if something is stolen? How serious would police take you? Not very. If you leave your house unlocked then you are negligent, even if it is an accident - and you may not recover anything that is taken.

That's one of the saddest things I think I've ever heard. Not to mention a ridiculous notion.

No one is supposed to enter your house illegally. Insurance will pay if your house is broken into, regardless of whether or not you've taken steps to secure it. See Bowling for Columbine and see why it's sick that we feel the need to lock our doors all the time.

Insurance will also pay if your car is stolen when you've left the keys in it, by the way.

The police would take any burglary where someone left their doors unlocked just as seriously as one where someone had to defeat a thousand-dollar security system and tranquilize a dog. Theft is theft and you should not have to take steps to secure your property to enjoy equal protection under the law.

In this case, however, the information was made available to the public on a publicly browsable site, which makes the argument of breaking and entering null.

I've seen leaked screenshots of Jaguar, and in those cases, the website had removed all pertinent data from the shot and simply cropped the pictures to show the relevant window, but most importantly, the website DID NOT link to the information but hosted it themselves.

I think if pbzone would have downloaded the screenshots, notified the man of his publicly available sensitive information and told them they were going to release the images to the public, he would have had a chance to remove them from his site (and maybe saved the guy).

pbzone woud have been able to release cropped pictures of the apps and they STILL would have gotten a scoop, but no heads would have rolled.

His cover story that Apple already found out is not logical.

bertinman

Feb 9, 2003, 02:47 PM

sorry if this has already been talked about...

but if he took screen shots AT WORK, how did they get to his HOME computer? I think that would be reason enough for me to fire him if I was his boss. Company info should not go home. Seperate work and play.

Also, he proved his untrustworthyness by saying he'd lie to anyone who didn't know, and say he wanted to leave and he wasn't fired. I'd be glad I fired him, and tell others not too.

Now that the tech industry is slowing down, TONs of people are wiz coders, and companies are more competitive A coder who is not trustworthy is not a good idea.

2cents...

-- bert

reiggin

Feb 9, 2003, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Arcady

I have met the guy who runs it. I have pictures of him from a party at macworld. However, I would not post them, or any of his information, because I don't want to be an ass like he has been.

Funny part: One picture has him and Ryan Meader in it. Two jerks in one picture!

Oh, I'd have to vote for that one as a MacRumors picture of the year... I can see the caption now... "Two guys who don't know diddly about running a website."

Dont Hurt Me

Feb 9, 2003, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by Mr. MacPhisto

I'm not signing a petition for a guy who posts internal material to the web like that. I don't understand why it was even on the web as such either if it was personal. Besides, he's not much of a computer-science student if he couldn't tell that that was in a public directory. PBZone may have linked it, which is questionable, but this kid knew what he was doing and got caught with his pants down. Having had similar information a couple years ago when I worked for IBM, I always handled internal docs and info with great care. Besides, if you truly like the company you're working for, why would you want to post internal info that could weaken competitive advantage. You might think it's harmless, but you have no idea what a comptetitor might think. If anyone should issue an apology, Adam should issue one to Apple. I agree with mcphisto apple doesnt have anything to apologize for? for enforcing their own rules and policies? please here we go again blame any and everyone but the one doing wrong. I know this is to simple of an idea for all those complex minds out there sorry.

tsugaru

Feb 9, 2003, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by xDANx
as adam described in his weblog, the screenshots he took were of an application called 'vantive' which is a database application that apple uses to track customer information...

I worked for Hewlett Packard over a year ago, so my confidentiality agreement is over with them. HP also uses Vantive (which is a horrible program) which ran on Windows. I wasn't aware that Vantive ran on Macintosh (if the Apple Tech people use Macs there.)

janey

Feb 9, 2003, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by jeffff
What country do you live in? U.S. citizens enjoy much more protection than that. In the U.S., you cannot enter someone's home without their permission. Locks have nothing to do with it. Nothing. I guess, in your example, I can just tell the police that I'm not a burglar, because the door was unlocked. Good plan!
Not necessarily true (true when you're talking about ordinary people though)...US citizens are protected from unreasonable searches (by government officials) by the Constitution. However, under the USA Patriot Act, which in itself is slightly unconstitutional, the federal and state governments have the right to search anything they want, do anything they want.
Why are you guys picking on the poor guy? He didn't know that those screenshots were even readily accessible and pbzone had no right to post those screenshots and his name as well. And even if he broke his NDA, Apple should have understood. It's not like he told EVERYONE that those pictures even existed. And I also find the NDA to be really pointless because a lot of people (unbeknownst to Apple) break their NDA's.

GeeYouEye

Feb 9, 2003, 04:43 PM

What Adam did could, at best, be described as negligent, and at worst as downright stupid. He should have at least checked to make sure that that folder was completely secured.

However, what PBZone did was completely out of line. One does not post personal information on a rumors site, even if they have been assured that the person has already been fired. In this case, either their contact who informed them of the imminent firing could have been either wrong or malicious, and that's if I buy that story from PBZ, which I don't.

janey

Feb 9, 2003, 04:55 PM

if all of you were in adam's shoes right now you wouldn't be saying all this...

shadowfax

Feb 9, 2003, 05:06 PM

On one level, i am inclined to think that life is about second chances. anyone who's never had one should stand up right now and say adam deserves to lose his dream job forever, to condemn him to his just deserts.

I believe in the sovereignty of law and the importance of upholding contracts, of course, and i've found this one of the most stimulating discussions i've read in a long time... the question of privacy in a strictly legal sense, especially as touching the internet, is a very compelling one to us who use the internet every day, who rely on its integrity (read: stability) to conduct business &c.

i hate to come out smack in the middle, but while i agree with sun baked and what i would more or less term the "legalist crowd" that apple has every right to fire adam and perhaps even to sue him for compromising absolutely nothing (which he promised not to compromise under the NDA), i have a great deal of sympathy for a man who made a mistake--i've made more than a few in my life, and i can't help but admit that i'm doomed to make a few (read: a hell of a lot) more.

in the law there is no mercy, and none should ever be expected. in man's heart there is (sometimes) mercy, and there should we rake for it. this is a complicated issue, naturally, but i think we could ease a great deal of tension if we had some of said mercy on adam's plight.

Mr. MacPhisto

Feb 9, 2003, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by jeffff

What country do you live in? U.S. citizens enjoy much more protection than that. In the U.S., you cannot enter someone's home without their permission. Locks have nothing to do with it. Nothing.

I guess, in your example, I can just tell the police that I'm not a burglar, because the door was unlocked. Good plan!

Do they? If something is missing from your home and there is no evidence of a break-in because the door was unlocked, etc then good luck trying to get the insurance company to replace something or the police to take it seriously. Ideally we do have better protection, but realistically we do not. Don't believe me? Ask your insurance company how they feel when things go missing and there is no evidence for a break in. ask your local police too.

shadowfax

Feb 9, 2003, 05:16 PM

in the interest of the property/information debate, i don't think this has been mentioned. screenshots of "secret" apple apps and so on is not neutral information, it's intellectual property--information that can be owned and stolen, and illegally shared (even if by accident), like Mac OS X itself, or all those mp3s floating around the internet. intellectual property is unlike physical property in that you can copy it. making analogies to stolen property is mostly illogical, because intellectual property is not literally stolen--it's copied. so it was like the photograph of the sensitive stuff you left on your dashboard that has been mentioned in this thread... it's much more complicated than simple stealing. i know this explanation is redundant, but i thought i would bring up the term for more precise use in further discussion.

i don't think it's been mentioned yet; i've thoroughly read most of this thread and skimmed the rest, but if so, sorry in advance for being dumb.

Xerov

Feb 9, 2003, 05:19 PM

I feel Sorry for the guy lossing his job and all...but what where the pictures of? I mean, has any of you seen them?

Do any of you have them?

jeffff

Feb 9, 2003, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by Mr. MacPhisto
If something is missing from your home and there is no evidence of a break-in because the door was unlocked, etc then good luck trying to get the insurance company to replace something or the police to take it seriously.

We're using an analogy to talk about a real life situation with Adam, remember? You're changing your own analogy to suit your argument on the fly. Nice!

In the case at hand, PBZone (or their informant) not only admitted to 'lifting' the stuff without Adam's permission, they followed him to 8080! And posted that! And posted his name!

By the way, you're wrong about the insurance company not replacing a missing item in the case of an unlocked door or lack of evidence of forced entry. The missing item itself is the evidence of the break in!

I know of a similar case. The best guess is that the item was stolen by someone who was employed by the home owner. Nothing was ever proven, but the insurance company had to pay. And believe me, the police and the insurance company took it very seriously!

janey

Feb 9, 2003, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by Xerov
I feel Sorry for the guy lossing his job and all...but what where the pictures of? I mean, has any of you seen them?

Do any of you have them?
Read more carefully. Adam had screenshots of apple internal applications: vantive, sword, and remote access. I doubt that anyone has those pics because Adam pulled it off his site. Read more at http://www.livejournal.com/~virga.

MrMacMan

Feb 9, 2003, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by übergeek

Read more carefully. Adam had screenshots of apple internal applications: vantive, sword, and remote access. I doubt that anyone has those pics because Adam pulled it off his site. Read more at http://www.livejournal.com/~virga.

Yeah he had some of the pics, he had the authority to see these programs.

No he shouldn't of posted them but.

Anyone who looks through the folders like that should be shanked. Really looking for stuff like that. I mean sure it was a pretty good find but look I wouldn't post it here.

And no i haven't seen these pics either.

A) are any of them good
B) what do they show
C) will it kill apple if we know a Program is coming?

janey

Feb 9, 2003, 06:30 PM

Hmmm after rereading the NDA i signed with apple very carefully i guess it won't hurt to tell you that nothing is going to KILL apple. Apple's just really secretive.
The screenshots were of stuff he did in those programs I guess...

Xerov

Feb 9, 2003, 06:32 PM

IndyGopher

Feb 9, 2003, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by übergeek
if all of you were in adam's shoes right now you wouldn't be saying all this...
I think the point that you aren't getting here is that no one with any sense would have GOTTEN into Adam's position. He screwed up. Really. A lot. If the worst that comes from it is losing a job as an underpaid sales grunt at a retail store, he's damned lucky. Stop defending stupidity and carelessness. The next internal document he posts on a website might have your credit card information on it. THEN would your heart bleed for him?

Mr. MacPhisto

Feb 9, 2003, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by jeffff

We're using an analogy to talk about a real life situation with Adam, remember? You're changing your own analogy to suit your argument on the fly. Nice!

In the case at hand, PBZone (or their informant) not only admitted to 'lifting' the stuff without Adam's permission, they followed him to 8080! And posted that! And posted his name!

By the way, you're wrong about the insurance company not replacing a missing item in the case of an unlocked door or lack of evidence of forced entry. The missing item itself is the evidence of the break in!

I know of a similar case. The best guess is that the item was stolen by someone who was employed by the home owner. Nothing was ever proven, but the insurance company had to pay. And believe me, the police and the insurance company took it very seriously!

Why didn't Adam move the stuff off the site completely? And why did he post it publically? I'm sorry, but someone who obviously knows what they are doing would know that it was public. He hid the sensitive data that was in the screen captures. He meant to post it publically. He directed people to his website with his post on slash-dot, and someone intelligent looked at the directory and saw what was there. How do we know Apple didn't look there themselves without PBZone's help?

And as for something missing in your home and no evidence for a break-in: yes, insurance will pay out, but they will keep their eyes on you and the police will investigate the situation and will likely be suspicious that you removed the item yourself. It's happened before. I've known people who have removed there own tvs and 'puters in an effort to get a more up to date product and not have to pay the full price. In some cases, insurance refused to pay because he could not prove that a something external from the house had taken it. Some companies will eat it, some will not.

And besides, it's immaterial. The stuff Adam posted was not his own anyways, he had already taken it from Apple.

MacSlut

Feb 9, 2003, 07:03 PM

Shame on you for what you did to Adam. Your update to
the "story" is even more shameful.

Your account of what happened makes no sense. An
Apple employee decided to report Adam to Apple
Security and to PowerBook Zone?

"Apparently" the link was on Slashdot.org first? Do
you ever verify anything?

Do you have any concept that this is someone's life
you're messing with?

And for what?

As addicted to Mac rumors as I am, I'm not even
curious to see those screenshots. Those screenshots
are not newsworthy at all to anyone who would dare
look at a monitor at an employee's station of an Apple
Store.

If you thought it was so newsworthy, why didn't you go
to a store yourself months ago with a camera?

Count me as one person who will never come back to
your site.

PS: I hope you get sued.

tsugaru

Feb 9, 2003, 07:05 PM

Vantive is a database program ala Oracle. Apple and HP (among others) use this program...

Only thing I can recall from this is that Vantive does not run on Macs, therefore Apple is using Windoze PCs (prolly through VPN) somehow for their DBase program.

Maybe that's why they were quite pissed off. Cuz of the fact that they run their customer service/tech support stuff through a PC Program.

edit here

I agree with macslut. I hope that @$$monger from pbzone gets sued.

MacKid

Feb 9, 2003, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Xerov

What do these programs do? vantive and Sword that is...remote access is pretty self-explanitory...and Are they programs apple is working on for release or just programs they made for themselves?

As was stated before, the Vantive program is partly used to just make the AppleCare database easier, like when you go into an Apple Store and it takes about 5-10 minutes for them to look up your AppleCare info. I'm not sure what Sword does.:confused:

janey

Feb 9, 2003, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by IndyGopher

I think the point that you aren't getting here is that no one with any sense would have GOTTEN into Adam's position. He screwed up. Really. A lot. If the worst that comes from it is losing a job as an underpaid sales grunt at a retail store, he's damned lucky. Stop defending stupidity and carelessness. The next internal document he posts on a website might have your credit card information on it. THEN would your heart bleed for him?
I'm not defending Adam and I'm not standing up for him either. I do get the point, it was a dumb thing to do, but the thing is humans are fallible. Everyone makes mistakes and you do too even if you might deny it. And he's not damned lucky!! You don't understand how it's like to work at an Apple Store. You don't know how it feels like to work at Apple. I don't care if the next internal doc he posts has my credit card info on it. **** happens!

sedarby

Feb 9, 2003, 08:25 PM

140+ posts? Is this really that compelling? I've seen fewer posts for real information.

Oh well, I guess whatever gets you through to the next announcement from Apple.

janey

Feb 9, 2003, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by sedarby
140+ posts? Is this really that compelling? I've seen fewer posts for real information.

Oh well, I guess whatever gets you through to the next announcement from Apple.
It's the actual act of firing a wonderful and thoughtful Apple Store employee that's compelling.

daRAT

Feb 9, 2003, 08:43 PM

Adam has updated his site, he mentioned it was HIS account that the screen shots were of, and I believe they (the screen shots) have been in that directory for some time.

More than likely it was for his own use, (I have also done screen shots of setups also and saved them).

Just poor judgement on his part, but I do not think he sould have been fired over it, reprimand yes, to be more careful.

PBzone just got a hardon over being able to post a name/address etc. Doug probably figures it's worth it for the extra hits he is getting... :\

kettle

Feb 9, 2003, 09:00 PM

shadowfax

Feb 9, 2003, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by sedarby
140+ posts? Is this really that compelling? I've seen fewer posts for real information.

Oh well, I guess whatever gets you through to the next announcement from Apple.

now that's the sympathy and mercy i'm talking about.

Dave Marsh

Feb 9, 2003, 09:30 PM

So, a computer science college student chooses to make available online info he might want to access easily from elsewhere...among all this data is some personal, including an ongoing and revealing blog, some items related to his work, etc. Now, Adam posts a news item to slashdot, with a link to his website...oops...a rumor site searches this website, and finds some non-controversial work-related data which Adam kept around for some unspecified reason (perhaps to remind him how to fill out a form in a complicated database, or to remember what was saved concerning his account in the database, or whatever). The rumor site decides it doesn't like Adam from reading his blog and noting some of the other info on his site, and sees an easy way to ruin him by turning him in for being careless about protecting the insensitive work screenshots.

Is he guilty of not protecting the work screenshots? Yes. Should he be fired for that? Perhaps, following a private discussion with his boss, considering the sensitivity of the revealed data, Adam's response, and his work history with the store. I can't help but remember how many stupid things I did in my youth that, luckily, I got away with...

Are the motives of the website that chose to publish his error, along with his personal information, ensuring he would be caught culpable? To my mind, yes.

It's interesting reading all the responses on this thread. Most are sympathetic...but it's those who are not whose comments are the most telling. I don't know about them, but I've never lived in a perfect world. Perhaps if I had I would feel differently. But in my world, people make mistakes, and we normally don't use those mistakes to ruin their lives, unless the errors were exceptionally heinous. This error doesn't, on the surface at least, appear to meet this criterion.

Yes, I know, he's only 19...and he should have known better, and what if he had had some juicy Apple-sensitive info on his website? But, is the economy really so filled with eager young technologists that we really feel it's OK to toss out everyone who's not perfect? And for those who hide behind the "he screwed up so he's toast mantle," why are you so quick to judge?

Yeah, you're right...I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.:cool:

Oh, and one more thing...I also don't recall ever seeing a rumor site name a source. Now really... if the rumor site had actually copied the bland screenshots up and announced them as proof of some new exotic rumor, such as APPLE USES VANTIVE, who would have cared? Certainly not me. But, let's get this guy fired! Hey, that's entertainment!

kansaigaijin

Feb 9, 2003, 10:00 PM

the information that was disclosed is not really that interesting, to be posted on PBzone. I think thier motive was simply to attack and destroy Adam. Now why would they want to do that?

Perhaps because he is openly gay?

voicegy

Feb 9, 2003, 10:08 PM

Geesh, this has turned really passionate since I last posted on page one!

If Apple feels such a mistake was worthy of termination, then I stand behind Apples' decision. I certainly wouldn't go screaming to them about such internal affairs and decisions.

I'm also surprised at the gay "angle." Suffice it to say, I'm homosexual (being of scientific mind, I prefer that phrasology) and I've made mistakes, and like to think I use both sides of my brain. I know heterosexual men who like the Mac AND work on the PC side. Guess that makes 'em bisexual in the brain?:p And "witch hunt" because the guy is homosexual?! I haven't stopped laughing yet at that remark.

Again, the kid's quite young. He'll survive. All in all, it's an interesting story and I'm glad it was posted, but hardly worthy, IMHO, of writing endless e-mails, signing petitions, banning sites, boycotting products on those sites, and furthering grief.

coolsoldier

Feb 9, 2003, 10:09 PM

Nobody Disputes the following facts (i think):
a) Adam is at leas partially at fault for this, even if his fault is just being a not-too-security-consious, curious kid (some say it is more serious).
b)PowerBook Zone is primarily at fault, even if no more than most news sources (again, some say it is more serious)

Now, onto the REAL issue here (Adam got fired), with som speculation of my own:

Adam was obviously knowledgable and passionate about the product (Macintosh Computers) he was selling. Since this doesn't seem like particularly sensitive information, it seems like a knowledgeable, passionate employee would be worth more to Apple in terms of business goals (i.e. selling computers) than screenshots of internal software. Also factor in that Adam, after this fiasco, is sustantialy less likely to leak apple information in the future than the average equally passionate employee. The real question Apple should be asking is "Is this guy helping us sell more computers?" I suspect the answer is yes.

"Second chances reward you with the most experienced friends."
(A good quote, but I can't remember who said it)

Apple would do well to have a little more compassion for it's most passionate users. I am a pretty enthusiastic Apple nut myself, and I think Apple needs to show some compassion for the part of it's user base primarily responsible for ANYONE ELSE using their products -- The mac faithful. I think Apple needs to give this kid the benefit of the doubt, and I am willing to tell them that.

xDANx

Feb 9, 2003, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by tsugaru
Vantive is a database program ala Oracle. Apple and HP (among others) use this program...

Only thing I can recall from this is that Vantive does not run on Macs, therefore Apple is using Windoze PCs (prolly through VPN) somehow for their DBase program.

Maybe that's why they were quite pissed off. Cuz of the fact that they run their customer service/tech support stuff through a PC Program.

edit here

I agree with macslut. I hope that @$$monger from pbzone gets sued.

vantive does run on Macs...but only using OS 9, not X. classic mode + vantive = a lot of crashes, and a lot of waiting, pissed off customers. i imagine that there must be some intention to develop an OS X compatible vantive but who knows when it might become available.

shadowfax

Feb 9, 2003, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by kansaigaijin
the information that was disclosed is not really that interesting, to be posted on PBzone. I think thier motive was simply to attack and destroy Adam. Now why would they want to do that?

Perhaps because he is openly gay?

I think you're overanalyziing on the issue of homosexuality. i'd be really surprised if this were a hate-inspired act. to maliciously defame someone like that would be nothing short of insidious; i think the people over at pbzone are just thoughtless, insensitive idiots, though their lack of remorse/sympathy or admission of guilt at even the most remote level does suggest a much worse picture of them than i was thinking at first...

Originally posted by Dave Marsh
So, a computer science college student chooses to make available online info he might want to access easily from elsewhere...among all this data is some personal, including an ongoing and revealing blog, some items related to his work, etc. Now, Adam posts a news item to slashdot, with a link to his website...oops...a rumor site searches this website, and finds some non-controversial work-related data which Adam kept around for some unspecified reason (perhaps to remind him how to fill out a form in a complicated database, or to remember what was saved concerning his account in the database, or whatever). The rumor site decides it doesn't like Adam from reading his blog and noting some of the other info on his site, and sees an easy way to ruin him by turning him in for being careless about protecting the insensitive work screenshots.

Is he guilty of not protecting the work screenshots? Yes. Should he be fired for that? Perhaps, following a private discussion with his boss, considering the sensitivity of the revealed data, Adam's response, and his work history with the store. I can't help but remember how many stupid things I did in my youth that, luckily, I got away with...

Are the motives of the website that chose to publish his error, along with his personal information, ensuring he would be caught culpable? To my mind, yes.

It's interesting reading all the responses on this thread. Most are sympathetic...but it's those who are not whose comments are the most telling. I don't know about them, but I've never lived in a perfect world. Perhaps if I had I would feel differently. But in my world, people make mistakes, and we normally don't use those mistakes to ruin their lives, unless the errors were exceptionally heinous. This error doesn't, on the surface at least, appear to meet this criterion.

Yes, I know, he's only 19...and he should have known better, and what if he had had some juicy Apple-sensitive info on his website? But, is the economy really so filled with eager young technologists that we really feel it's OK to toss out everyone who's not perfect? And for those who hide behind the "he screwed up so he's toast mantle," why are you so quick to judge?

Yeah, you're right...I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.:cool:

Oh, and one more thing...I also don't recall ever seeing a rumor site name a source. Now really... if the rumor site had actually copied the bland screenshots up and announced them as proof of some new exotic rumor, such as APPLE USES VANTIVE, who would have cared? Certainly not me. But, let's get this guy fired! Hey, that's entertainment!

This is one of the most eloquent posts i've seen in these forums, and expresses my thoughts much better than i probably could. kudos.

one thing that can be said of pbzone, if nothing else:
what a bunch of losers! who would go to a site that gets bored enough to post this? as has been said, this isn't even remotely interesting at the occurrence level. who honestly cares about any of these screenshots?

i would be appalled by their carelessness and foolishness in posting such a triviality that can only serve to damn a single person in the eyes of apple's NDA. even if their stupid story about him already being cooked when they published the article were true, what pathetic people must run a site that would post something like that? it's not exactly "new iPods on wednesday?" is it? this can't be because of rumor competition either, in my mind. i mean, i can see fighting to be the first to get details on the latest apple hardware or software, but none of the stuff on his page has any relevance or interest to the general public or the mac community, at whatever cost.

i laugh at macOSrumors for posting fairly mean things and stupid rumors (quad processors are coming this year, you know, it's the only way to deal with motorola), but i still go there. PBzone is the first on my list of mac sites NEVER to go to again.

Hugh

Feb 9, 2003, 10:29 PM

Interesting that Vantive is on that Mac. I used to work for an ISP, and they use Vantive as well. I was like the only Mac person and wanted to bad to use Vantive on the Mac that would sit on my desk along side my PC.

Oh by the way, I haven't worked for the ISP in 2 years and my NDA as been up.

-Hugh

Jahan

Feb 9, 2003, 10:51 PM

Following is the email I sent PBZone. I hope that the following petition I signed will help Adam's future with Apple. Go to petition link (http://www.petitiononline.com/apple123/petition.html)

Dear Pbzone,

Adam's loyalty and passion for Apple is not in question. Information that was found to be newsworthy was taken without his knowledge. The fact that the screenshots were for his personal use seems to have been forgotten.

The individual(s) who dobbed him in and the newsworthiness of this post showed no respect for Adam which is thoroughly disturbing.

Justification by technicality is a poor subsitute for the right thing. I'd question the Apple employee that reported the link more than Adam.

With regret I shall no longer frequent your site for mac information based on your behaviour.

Yours sincerely,

Jahan

Hmm

Feb 9, 2003, 11:08 PM

Some people are also voicing their displeasure at the PBzone forum thread:

http://www.macdebate.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000608.html

praetorian_x

Feb 9, 2003, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by MacWhispers
I, briefly, failed to have an index.html file in my root directory a couple of weeks ago, inadvertently leaving all of my files there open to simple browser access. That's fixed now. But, during that two-day period, did the whole world have a "right" to rummage through everything there, grab whatever they might want, post direct links to those files?...

What ever happened to the concept of "permission?"

It's built right into your os:

chmod 500 some_file_I_dont_want_the_world_to_see.jpeg

Originally posted by MacWhispers

Just because I can gain "access" to a place does not somehow empower me with the "right" to be there.

True in the physical world. A non-password protected network resource, without a clear posting that it is not to be accessed, is pretty much fair game though.

Originally posted by MacWhispers

If my neighbors go to work and forget to lock their home, does that give me the right to enter their house and begin rummaging through their property?

Fallacious metaphor. I can't rummage through your house through a standardized protocol that your house is fully accepting and responding to.

Originally posted by MacWhispers

This is a challenging idea, one that bores straight to the root of the nature of the internet.

Yeah, just ask the RIAA...

Originally posted by MacWhispers

I, personally, don't believe being crafty enough to enter a place without the owner's permission somehow embues me with the right to do so.

I am startled by people who post here with comments based around the idea that, "If he was silly enough to have th files on his server..." Whoa... hold on a minute... Are these people claiming that, if someone has property in their house, and leaves the garage door open, everybody in the world is somehow entitled to enter, plunder, and publish?

This whole line of faulty reasoning scares me.

<laugh/> The web delivers content through an HTTP server. A web server is free to respond hower it likes to whatever request is made of it. If you don't understand how to make it not deliver content you don't want delivered, you have two options: 1) don't set up a web site. 2) learn.

Originally posted by MacWhispers

Folks, the last time I checked, I could have a chair sitting just inside a glass window at the front of my house, one that everyone walking by could see; and, I could have my front door unlocked, and not be at home. If you walk by under these circumstances, is that then (somehow) your chair?

I think this is an important issue. What do you think?

Well, again, I think this is a broken metaphor. It's more like people looked in through that window, from the street. And that the window had been set up explicitly for viewing from the street. And our friend just forgot to put some stuff away that he didn't want seen. It just so happens that, on the web, the view and the original are the same. But, really, it's your http server. If it gets a request, it is your choice how to handle it.

Cheers,
prat

praetorian_x

Feb 9, 2003, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by jeffff
I think this case is actionable. Let PBZone prove they did no wrong in a court of law. Adam has nothing to lose, if he can get an ambitious lawyer to take his case.

Precisely what america needs. More lawsuits.

<rolls-eyes/>

Cheers,
prat

shadowfax

Feb 9, 2003, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by praetorian_x

Precisely what america needs. More lawsuits.

<rolls-eyes/>

Cheers,
prat

yeah, i don't think we need any legal action either.

but i do think that it's senseless to support PBZone as a website--i mean, you have to admit that the article is pathetic if not downright mean.

TheMessenger

Feb 10, 2003, 12:52 AM

Interesting to note that the PBZone.com thread in MacDebate.com does not exist (anymore). Censorship anyone?

Fight The Power
TheMessenger

Sun Baked

Feb 10, 2003, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by TheMessenger
Interesting to note that the PBZone.com thread in MacDebate.com does not exist (anymore). Censorship anyone?

Fight The Power
TheMessenger Not really, that thread's sole purpose was to spread a hate filled message.

Opening up something for general debate is one thing, once it devolves into vile verbal vomit it should get killed.

While you may not agree with what the guy did, it's still best to remain calm and avoid placing yourself in a position where you act worse than they do (ie, DoS attacks, actual slander, etc.)

If you look at the print media and the tv broadcasts, a few times a year reporters go much further than this guy -- basically reaching into peoples lives and holding a trial in the media, even credit card info is sometimes broadcast along with setting up shop on people's front lawns.

---

Just think what would happen to your life if you're ever branded an "investigative lead"...

TheMessenger

Feb 10, 2003, 01:50 AM

I didn't get to see the actual thread, so I did not know what was posted in there. I just thought it was interesting to note that the thread that was being advertised was not there anymore. Nothing more, nothing less.

Fight The Power (Well, Sometimes)
TheMessenger

Foocha

Feb 10, 2003, 03:32 AM

It's not the first time that Shadowfax has posted wisdom on this forum.

Everyone makes mistakes - Adam has made one and he will have to learn to live with the consequences. It's certainly not the end of the world for him, he's obviously talented (at movie making, not server administration) and he's got his whole life ahead of him.

The movie he produced is very good, and I admire the fact that he's using this situation to promote it - maybe something good will come out of the mistake after all.

shadowfax

Feb 10, 2003, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by Foocha
(at movie making, not server administration)

i loved your qualification. i haven't had time to see his film, but i thought it was great to point out that this guy is not incompetent--just not a pro at administering his server. it's been said that you should know better--learn or not use apache, so to speak. i strongly disagree. to learn, you must use. this guy is a college student, a youth, and as such is in the process of learning. i don't think he needs someone to give up on him, to toss him aside; on the contrary, he needs someone to say, hey, buddy, you're not an apache guru i see... you should be more careful with company secrets next time. here, here's a second chance. truth is, most of us in this life are on our 50th chance or worse, buddy. it's no big deal. you live, you learn, you don't do it again.

suggested reading from my senior english class: Mark Twain - Advice to Youth.

JBracy

Feb 10, 2003, 07:10 AM

As I see it this is the reall issue. PBZone actually has nothing to do with it:

1) The guy takes screen shots of internal Apple info (thus violating his NDA)

No problem as long as no one finds out.

2) He copies them to some kind of removable media and brings them home.

A little problem, as I'm sure Apple does not allow you to take info of site

3) He goes through the trouble of converting these to jpegs and bluring sensitive info.

Why would he do this if they were for his own personal use?

4) He puts them on a publicly accessible web server and posts a link to that server on slashdot!

OK he may actually not have meant to have this directory publicly accessible, if so, then it should have been password protected, or at least the ownership of the files should have been limited to him. The fact that they were there and anyone could open them makes him guilty of violating his NDA.

Now to follow the analogy of someone breaking into your house. It's actually more like someone walked past your front window, saw a box stating "Property of xyz corp, do not remove from xyz headquarters". So they call xyz and tell them that they saw some of their property at this address.

If a CIA agent leaves a top secret briefcase in a cab, and the cab driver reads the documents, who has broken the law? It depends. If the case is locked and says top secret etc... then the cab driver. if it's open with no identification, then the agent is at fault.

This guy was 100% wrong. Wether through ignorance, naivety, stupidity or maliciousness I can't say, but he was wrong and if nothing else deserved to lose his job.

whooleytoo

Feb 10, 2003, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by praetorian_x

Fallacious metaphor. I can't rummage through your house through a standardized protocol that your house is fully accepting and responding to.

Like... a door? A standard protocol for entering/exiting a house :)

I'd be very interested in the legal definition of hacking, IIRC it's more like "unauthorised computer access". PBZone posting that link may well fall into that category.

I have to say, I've no respect for PBZone's actions. If they gave a crap about Apple's rights, they would have informed Apple about the screenshots, but wouldn't have drawn any attention to them by posting a link.

The ONLY interesting thing about these screenshots (and I'm an ex-Apple employee and have used these programs) was they were in a folder called Apple Internal.

PBZone took some mundane screenshots, sensationalised them by posting a link and making a big deal out of it, *BENEFITTED* from the exposure, and then hypocritically dumped Adam in it.
"Ooh look, some nasty person's posting Apple secrets - (See them here first!!!)"

They are as guilty as he is.

Mike.

sedarby

Feb 10, 2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by übergeek

It's the actual act of firing a wonderful and thoughtful Apple Store employee that's compelling.
Nothing compelling about it. He messed up.

I work for a contractor to the US Gov't and you can bet I don't keep ANYTHING from work on my home computers.

Apple was well withing their rights to fire him and is probably considering legal action. Ignorance is no excuse.

My advise to this person, never keep anything on your home computer, NDA or not.

shadowfax

Feb 10, 2003, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by JBracy

This guy was 100% wrong. Wether through ignorance, naivety, stupidity or maliciousness I can't say, but he was wrong and if nothing else deserved to lose his job.

it's possible for him to be 100% at fault and for PBzone to still be complete idiots/jerks. it's also 100% your fault for mispelling naïvete. my god, you're contributing to the demise of the english language, the written word! the fact of the matter is that he made a mistake; he didn't know that they were accessible online, just like you had no idea how to spell naïvete. how naïve you both are! maybe he did deserve to lose his job... but, maybe we'd all be damnéd if we got our just deserts. why be harsh on the guy? he's had plenty of that.

Sun Baked

Feb 10, 2003, 06:30 PM

shadowfax

Feb 10, 2003, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by Sun Baked
Strange...

My spell check program bounced on that version and offered naivety, naïveté, naiveté as ways to spell the word.

Of course it is a MS product, which is know to be riddled with spelling errors.

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?postid=158571

let's not play this game. my point wasn't his error, if we all faulted each other's errors, this would be one heck of a crappy forum. the point was that we overlook negligence, at least the first time, because everyone makes mistakes.

to address your correction:
perhaps MS, as well as the english-standardizing source have conceded to "naivety." but this is my point--contributing to the devolution of language. it used to be spelled "naïf," and now "naïve..." but of course, he isn't contributing to it anymore, because i have gone to my OED, and it already has "naivety," "naïvety," and "naïvete" in it (didn't remember to use my accent on my original, and apparently that's acceptable). looks like this one has already gone to the dogs, so to speak. so, bad illustration, but my point about mistakes stands.

JBracy

Feb 10, 2003, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax

it's possible for him to be 100% at fault and for PBzone to still be complete idiots/jerks. it's also 100% your fault for mispelling naïvete. my god, you're contributing to the demise of the english language, the written word! the fact of the matter is that he made a mistake; he didn't know that they were accessible online, just like you had no idea how to spell naïvete. how naïve you both are! maybe he did deserve to lose his job... but, maybe we'd all be damnéd if we got our just deserts. why be harsh on the guy? he's had plenty of that.

1) Get a dictionary. You're a student use the library for once.

SYLLABICATION: na·ive·ty
PRONUNCIATION: n?-?v?t?, nä-, n?-??v?-t?, nä-
VARIANT_FORMS: or na·ïve·ty
NOUN: Artlessness or credulity; naiveté.
_
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by the Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

2) I didn't say that PBZone was fine I said that they actually had nothing to do with wether Adam was right or wrong. Just because someone points out that you are breaking the law in a totally asinine manner does not make you any less guilty.

3) He did know they were accessible online, he specifically altered them so that when someone saw them they wouldn't get any personal info from them. Not the work of someone who didn't mean for these to be seen. Let alone the fact that he is a Computer Science major and knows how to

I grep'd the access_log. 100 apple.com hostnames. Oh *******. OH *******, when it was hitting me. i even null routed anything in the 17.0.0.0/8 block.

He knew exactly what he was doing. Now wether he knew he was violating his NDA? I don't know. I do know that when I went to work for Quark I had a lawyer go over my NDA so I knew exactly what I was signing.

4) Get a life.

Sun Baked

Feb 10, 2003, 07:57 PM

As I said, MS spell check sucks ... ;) :p

JBracy

Feb 10, 2003, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax

i have gone to my OED, and it already has "naivety," "naïvety," and "naïvete" in it (didn't remember to use my accent on my original, and apparently that's acceptable).
[/edit]

Glad to see you found that dictionary :)

BTW "I" should be capitalized :p

OK Truce.

Good night.

shadowfax

Feb 10, 2003, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by JBracy

1) Get a dictionary. You're a student use the library for once.

SYLLABICATION: na·ive·ty
PRONUNCIATION: n?-?v?t?, nä-, n?-??v?-t?, nä-
VARIANT_FORMS: or na·ïve·ty
NOUN: Artlessness or credulity; naiveté.
_
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by the Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
...
4) Get a life.

you should read the posts put up before making corrections that have already been posted, but hey, thanks for furthering my embarrassment. i am sorry for using that example, i wasn't aware that that particular spelling had been assimilated; i don't spend much time in recent literature, and i haven't looked that one up in a dictionary. that said, though, i resent your insulting my intelligence. i made a mistake. i'm also a national merit finalist, and i've gotten 4s and 5s on all of my 5 APs (as of my Junior year), with 6 more on the way by the end of this year. I'd appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about people based on isolated singular experiences.

2) I didn't say that PBZone was fine I said that they actually had nothing to do with wether Adam was right or wrong. Just because someone points out that you are breaking the law in a totally asinine manner does not make you any less guilty.

this is exactly what i have said previously. i was saying that i think you should have a little compassion on the guy.

3) He did know they were accessible online, he specifically altered them so that when someone saw them they wouldn't get any personal info from them. Not the work of someone who didn't mean for these to be seen. Let alone the fact that he is a Computer Science major and knows how to
...
He knew exactly what he was doing. Now wether he knew he was violating his NDA? I don't know. I do know that when I went to work for Quark I had a lawyer go over my NDA so I knew exactly what I was signing.

the fact that he blurred the sensitive stuff is not conclusive evidence that he wanted to violate his NDA. furthermore, from what i have heard, the NDA does not prevent you from retaining such things at your home; it sounds like it just says you can't share them with non-apple folks. he could have blurred the stuff he didn't care about that he didn't want anyone to see should they come upon it in some strange manner (i won't even go there), and still have intended not to go out of his way to show them to someone, or even to leave them available for public access. true, he should have known better, but why are you telling me? i freely admitted that. that's entirely different from what i wanted to say.

i am sorry about the naivety thing, but, if you please, change my previous analogy from "naivety" to "wether." it's not wether, it's whether, and you have mispelled it 2 times now. i don't care, honestly. i was just making a point. you can defend yourself on some instances, of course, but the fact remains--you aren't perfect either.

about capitalization: if you read my posts, it's a formality i forego very consistently in electronic communication, and often for style. i don't do it because i am a senior and no one has told me to capitalize my first letters of sentences and my i's, or because i forget. my friends respect my skills of editing so much that they actually offer to pay me to edit their college admission essays and other important compositions.

shadowfax

Feb 10, 2003, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by Sun Baked
As I said, MS spell check sucks ... ;) :p

much as i hate to admit it, MS was right at i was wrong, lol.

MS proved you and JBracy right on that particular count.

:p ;) :eek:

janey

Feb 10, 2003, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
the fact that he blurred the sensitive stuff is not conclusive evidence that he wanted to violate his NDA. furthermore, from what i have heard, the NDA does not prevent you from retaining such things at your home; it sounds like it just says you can't share them with non-apple folks. he could have blurred the stuff he didn't care about that he didn't want anyone to see should they come upon it in some strange manner (i won't even go there), and still have intended not to go out of his way to show them to someone, or even to leave them available for public access. true, he should have known better, but why are you telling me? i freely admitted that. that's entirely different from what i wanted to say.
Of course the NDA does not prevent you from retaining ANYTHING in your own home...it's just that Apple seriously overreacts every time something like this happens. I know that it's possible for them to lose their market share and stuff like that but does it really make a difference if someone (like me) gave out copies of prerelease software to anyone who wanted it? Not really. Besides, I have a lot of Apple software on my servers-which is technically violating the NDA i signed if people who didn't sign an NDA are allowed to access but do I really care? No...

janey

Feb 10, 2003, 09:20 PM

Ummm I can't believe I actually said that...I take that back I do care.

DakotaGuy

Feb 10, 2003, 10:47 PM

I don't understand why someone posted all that garbage to the petition. Yeah, I would have to agree the petition will probably not work, but if you like the idea that Adam was fired, then don't sign it and forget the 2nd grade comments.

I feel bad for whoever started the petition because I think it was a thoughtful thing to do and then someone had to go on there putting all this crap up.

janey

Feb 10, 2003, 11:01 PM

i don't think it was even a good idea to fire adam in the first place let alone the petition and this whole thread on MR.

JBracy

Feb 11, 2003, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by Shadowfax

you should read the posts put up before making corrections that have already been posted, but hey, thanks for furthering my embarrassment. i am sorry for using that example, i wasn't aware that that particular spelling had been assimilated; i don't spend much time in recent literature, and i haven't looked that one up in a dictionary. that said, though, i resent your insulting my intelligence. i made a mistake. i'm also a national merit finalist, and i've gotten 4s and 5s on all of my 5 APs (as of my Junior year), with 6 more on the way by the end of this year. I'd appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about people based on isolated singular experiences.

this is exactly what i have said previously. i was saying that i think you should have a little compassion on the guy.

the fact that he blurred the sensitive stuff is not conclusive evidence that he wanted to violate his NDA. furthermore, from what i have heard, the NDA does not prevent you from retaining such things at your home; it sounds like it just says you can't share them with non-apple folks. he could have blurred the stuff he didn't care about that he didn't want anyone to see should they come upon it in some strange manner (i won't even go there), and still have intended not to go out of his way to show them to someone, or even to leave them available for public access. true, he should have known better, but why are you telling me? i freely admitted that. that's entirely different from what i wanted to say.

i am sorry about the naivety thing, but, if you please, change my previous analogy from "naivety" to "wether." it's not wether, it's whether, and you have mispelled it 2 times now. i don't care, honestly. i was just making a point. you can defend yourself on some instances, of course, but the fact remains--you aren't perfect either.

about capitalization: if you read my posts, it's a formality i forego very consistently in electronic communication, and often for style. i don't do it because i am a senior and no one has told me to capitalize my first letters of sentences and my i's, or because i forget. my friends respect my skills of editing so much that they actually offer to pay me to edit their college admission essays and other important compositions.

I think you'll find that you are the one who insulted my intelligence. And you are the one who brought up the whole area of spelling and grammar. So I don't care if you do prefer to use lowercase 'i's, or not to capitalize your sentences, it is grammatically incorrect.

Back on topic. I don't know what the Apple NDA says, but some NDA's will prohibit taking screen shots, moving info to computers not controlled by the company, etc... I can't say if just his bringing it home was a violation of NDA, but it's not unreasonable to assume that it was. The point is if he blurred the image to prevent non-Apple folks seeing the info, then it is safe to assume that he knew that someone would see it. This guy is a CS major. He knew what he was doing, and Apple had every right to fire him. If I was his boss I would have too.

BustANut

Feb 11, 2003, 11:39 AM

Adam definitely deserved his firing. Anyone who thinks otherwise is completely ignorant of how the corportate world operates. Adam simply got a dosage of reality - he was living in a fantasy world based on how he preceived Apple as this perfect little, "wonderful" company. Well, when you violate an NDA policy, the ***** is bound to hit the fan. Additionally, keep in mind that Adam Attarian NEVER worked for Apple - he worked in a RETAIL store in a shopping mall - there is a huge difference there, he was nothing more than a mall employee. Because Apple Retail is a subdivision of the company as a whole, retail employees fall under the same policies, but are smacked 10x faster and 10x harder for violating policies. Apple has a separate HR division for retail, a separate security dept for retail, basically EVERYTHING for retail is separate.

Put it this way, retail employees are easily disposable, and because practically ALL of the Apple stores were overhired, many, many employees have since been fired or laid off. Of course, Apple would much rather fire employees since lay-offs make the company look financially destitute. Apple expected a bunch of full-time retail employees to leave on their own account, because that's how the retail world operates. Retard, 3rd or 4th assistant managers from The Gap and Old Navy were purposely hired as Apple knew the more qualified people working under them would become pi$$ed and leave. Unfortunately, before most could leave, those same retarded retail managers would find ways to get their employees fired.

More people come & go from retail jobs than any other job. In this case, many of the full-timers Apple hired were not leaving due to slightly higher-than-normal retail pay, every full-timer also received some skimped version of the full corporate benefit package, and the false feeling of being employed by Apple as a corporate employee kept others on board longer than expected.

Adam is NO exception to the case of firings - I would estimate that roughly HALF of all MG's hired since Apple first opened their stores have been fired. Only a select few have quit or been laid off. It was MUCH easier for Apple to fire Mac Geniuses. Additionally, I would say that Adam's violation of an NDA policy is up there as one of the BEST reasons to fire an MG. Others were fired for much more arguable and shady reasons. Most of the noted "lead geniuses" that Apple hired from their phone support in Sacramento have also been fired - most lead geniuses were complete incompetent phone monkeys who should've NEVER left tech support in the first place.

As for the Apple policies, hourly retail employees DO NOT receive Apple-issued hardware and therefore are NOT permitted to download or even log into any of Apple's internal file servers without explicit permission from a manager or from someone on the corporate level. The fact that Adam logged into the internal file servers to take those screenshots was a violation in itself worthy of termination.

You also have to ask the question: "Why the hell did Adam take screenshots of Apple's Internal file servers in the first place?". Seems like very few have asked that one in these forums. Although I can't read the kid's mind, my first assumption would be that he originally took the screenshots to show off to his CS buddies at school. "Hey, I can get to all this cool *Apple Internal Only* software - who wants some?" Who knows how much this kid downloaded from those servers to distribute to his friends at school. Oh, yeah, it's all assumption-based, but typical of apple retail employees - and I guarantee that whoever fired him thought up all the thoughts I just mentioned. Many Mac Geniuses AND Sales Associates have been fired for unauthorized software duplication, warezing, and other ethical breaches (such as surfing porn sites at work, or eating in the AppleCare room - the room where customers' Macs are repaired), etc. I'm sure this wasn't the first time that Adam violated some sort of NDA or policy of ethics.

It frustrates me to see people placing petitions online, etc. Adam will NEVER get rehired, everyone has to learn to face that as the harsh reality. My advice to Adam - change your major at college to arts or music (you appear to not know jack ***** about CS), consider applying to Target since you're an experience retail employee, and next time you get hired, try not to disclose confidential information - it just might get you fired again. Hopefully this kid learned his lesson. Since this case has received so much publicity on the rumor sites I would not be surprised if Apple goes after him in civil court. Yeah, it would be senseless for Apple to sue him, but it's possible.

Also, what's this crap about Adam being employed as a Mac Genius? Various sources have confirmed that Adam was nothing more than a lousy part-time sales associate. From what I've seen everyone here has assumed that Adam Attarian was a Mac Genius. I can't believe this kid is so bent for being canned as a SALESMAN.

-hh

Feb 11, 2003, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by BustANut
Adam definitely deserved his firing.

FWIW, I'm inclined to disagree, but I don't dispute the fact that the kid made a mistake.

... Well, when you violate an NDA policy, the ***** is bound to hit the fan. Additionally, keep in mind that Adam Attarian NEVER worked for Apple - he worked in a RETAIL store in a shopping mall - there is a huge difference there, he was nothing more than a mall employee...

Yes, this is the direction I was thinking. If Apple's foolish enough to provide significantly sensitive corporate info to a mere retail employee, *shame on Apple*. Mistakes like this are bound to occur, day in and day out.

More people come & go from retail jobs than any other job.

More the reason to compartmentalize your sensitive corporate info, so that the "temps" never have an opportunity to see it. Which really begs the question why these employees have an NDA in the first place, since its pragmatically not necessary for their environment. Apple's playing a nasty game here in that they're setting up their own people for failure, with no compensating chance of a reward.

As for the Apple policies, hourly retail employees DO NOT receive Apple-issued hardware and therefore are NOT permitted to download or even log into any of Apple's internal file servers without explicit permission from a manager or from someone on the corporate level. The fact that Adam logged into the internal file servers to take those screenshots was a violation in itself worthy of termination.

So then if he shouldn't have had permissions, how did he get these photo's? Sounds to me that if Apple's on a rampage, then at least one more person must be canned as well.

You also have to ask the question: "Why the hell did Adam take screenshots of Apple's Internal file servers in the first place?". Seems like very few have asked that one in these forums. Although I can't read the kid's mind, my first assumption would be that he originally took the screenshots to show off to his CS buddies at school. "Hey, I can get to all this cool *Apple Internal Only* software - who wants some?"

Exactly. And since the Retail environment is inherently insecure, so Apple's a fool if they think that they can prevent simple screenshots of some of this stuff from ever getting out.

And on these lines, I think the next time I go into an Apple Store, I'll take along a personal Digital Camera and play the legal role of a screen-in-public-view Paparatzi, if for no other purpose than to show Apple that their Retail-level NDA is an excercise in futility.

It frustrates me to see people placing petitions online, etc. Adam will NEVER get rehired... I can't believe this kid is so bent for being canned as a SALESMAN.

Personally, I'm inclined to sign the petition even though I agree that Adam won't be rehired.

The dillemma that I see is that by many reports, Adam was providing superior customer service, and that's Apple's loss.

Apple has to realize that young people are prone to mistakes, and that when you have an employee who the customer likes, you have to forgive minor indiscretions such as this one appears to be.

Apple had better damn well hope that he doesn't become a celebrity down at the Gateway store, as an "Un-Switcher".

-hh

Jahan

Feb 11, 2003, 04:42 PM

PBzone has posted a further update to their reasons for posting the screenshots.

It's worth having a revisit for those that never had the benefit of seeing the screenshots when discussing this thread.

Internal Screenshots update 11 (http://www.pbzone.com/)

I found the most interesting part of this thread was not the issue of whether it was fair for Apple to terminate Adam but in the huge contrast of goodwill in the responses.

I remember back when Apple killed the Newton in 1998 when Steve Jobs returned to the company, even though fans demonstrated in the parking lot of Apple's Cupertino campus. (Apple officials apparently gave them coffee and cookies but refused to resurrect the device).

Fans still take their Newtons to Jobs' keynote speeches at Macworld and wave them in the air in silent protest.

There is a very personal element for being a mac user and the expectations we have of Apple. Realistic or not.

I believe one of the motivations for having a Mac is the opportunity to take a position and defend it like some have in supporting Adam.

Maybe some of us expected Apple to

"...think different " ?

J

shadowfax

Feb 11, 2003, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by JBracy

I think you'll find that you are the one who insulted my intelligence. And you are the one who brought up the whole area of spelling and grammar. So I don't care if you do prefer to use lowercase 'i's, or not to capitalize your sentences, it is grammatically incorrect.

ai, you are still missing the point. I've already apologized for this, and it wasn't an attack on your intelligence, it was an illustration about how even you can make mistakes. i made one too--i pointed out something you did as a mistake, and it really wasn't. but that doesn't mean you don't make mistakes, and it DOES NOT insult your intelligence at all, unless you think making mistakes makes you stupid, in which case, everyone that's ever lived is stupid. my lack of capitalization is indeed a grammatical error, but it is intentional, like James Joyce's sentence structure, or Emily Dickinson's poetic style. mispelling is a mistake, whether you just make a typo or you really have no clue how to spell a word, and are just too lazy to check, or you think it's right.

once again, i am not apologizing for insulting your intelligence, because it was never my intention to do so, nor do i believe i have. i was simply making an application to your (and everyone else's) life as to why mercy is due. i am, however, sorry once again for making a mistake with naivety/naïveté, but it just goes to extend the illustration to me; i realize that i am in just as great a need of mercy as you are, and Adam.

shadowfax

Feb 11, 2003, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by Jahan
PBzone has posted a further update to their reasons for posting the screenshots.

It's worth having a revisit for those that never had the benefit of seeing the screenshots when discussing this thread.

Internal Screenshots update 11 (http://www.pbzone.com/)

I found the most interesting part of this thread was not the issue of whether it was fair for Apple to terminate Adam but in the huge contrast of goodwill in the responses.

I remember back when Apple killed the Newton in 1998 when Steve Jobs returned to the company, even though fans demonstrated in the parking lot of Apple's Cupertino campus. (Apple officials apparently gave them coffee and cookies but refused to resurrect the device).

Fans still take their Newtons to Jobs' keynote speeches at Macworld and wave them in the air in silent protest.

There is a very personal element for being a mac user and the expectations we have of Apple. Realistic or not.

I believe one of the motivations for having a Mac is the opportunity to take a position and defend it like some have in supporting Adam.

Maybe some of us expected Apple to

"...think different " ?

J

thanks for the info. i still dislike the fact that they even raised the issue by publishing this article, but it certainly makes them look much less mean and much more simply willing to post an article that contains nothing redeemable in the least--it makes them look like ambulance chasers. "the damage has been done, so we may as well inform the mac community about it so they can all go and see the files... he's not going to get into any LESS trouble, right?" Now that i think about it, i still don't like PBzone at all.

I thoroughly enjoyed your comments about thinking apple would think different, but i do see that as a large corporation they really can't afford to hold a double standard to him. i do think that they should lighten their standard though. for a minor leak that costs them nothing, it seems like they could show mercy the first time.

Rower_CPU

Feb 11, 2003, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
<snip>
my lack of capitalization is indeed a grammatical error, but it is intentional, like James Joyce's sentence structure, or Emily Dickinson's poetic style. mispelling is a mistake, whether you just make a typo or you really have no clue how to spell a word, and are just too lazy to check, or you think it's right.
<snip>

I have to point this out, Shadowfax: mispelling can be used as a stylistic element in literature as well. Authors often use it to give a character a distinctive voice, or to set a piece in a period/location.

The English language is something that is played with, mangled, destroyed and resurrected in literature all the time. You might want to come down off that horse - be careful, that first step's a doozy. ;)

JBracy

Feb 11, 2003, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax

it's also 100% your fault for mispelling naïvete. my god, you're contributing to the demise of the english language, the written word!

Originally posted by Shadowfax

ai, you are still missing the point. I've already apologized for this, and it wasn't an attack on your intelligence, ? and it DOES NOT insult your intelligence at all, unless you think making mistakes makes you stupid, in which case, everyone that's ever lived is stupid.

Sorry, but that was a little insulting, although I realize that it was tounge in cheek. I have no personal problem with you, I was just a little put back at you vehement reply to my original post. I don't know you, your background or anything about you, so I don't like to make judgments.

Now, I agree that the world is in need of mercy, however, from reading Adam's blogs, I am of the impression that he still has no idea why what he did was wrong other than the fact that he lost his job. Furthermore, I can almost guarantee that if Apple had not fired him and just slapped his wrist that he would continue to do exactly the same thing, but hide it better.

I response to the comments that Apple has lost a talented and well liked employee, I don't know what to say. If he had worked for me I would have fired him even if he was the best most loved employee I had. Teenagers who want to work for Apple are a dime a dozen, and I'll bet that Apple will have no problem filling his shoes.

shadowfax

Feb 11, 2003, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by Rower_CPU

I have to point this out, Shadowfax: mispelling can be used as a stylistic element in literature as well. Authors often use it to give a character a distinctive voice, or to set a piece in a period/location.

The English language is something that is played with, mangled, destroyed and resurrected in literature all the time. You might want to come down off that horse - be careful, that first step's a doozy. ;)

huckleberry finn did come to mind quickly. i made my generalization about spelling to fast; i was thinking about high school papers and this forum.

reconsidering, it seems that writers do mispell things on purpose to give a certain voice to a character, but i don't think that using a dialect from a different period could be considered mispelling, unless it's actually considered incorrect within that dialect. the old colour/color issue, i see. thanks for bringing that up, i guess i am jumping to the isle of conclusions rather quickly in certain places, but i still maintain my overarching point :).

shadowfax

Feb 11, 2003, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by JBracy

Sorry, but that was a little insulting, although I realize that it was tounge in cheek. I have no personal problem with you, I was just a little put back at you vehement reply to my original post. I don't know you, your background or anything about you, so I don't like to make judgments.

about five posts after you said "truce," i think i am ready to call it too. I am sorry for looking vehement, but i really was completely joking about the "demise of the english language," as you clearly understand. I just want to emphasize that and apologize for any initial misconceptions that may have facilitated.

Now, I agree that the world is in need of mercy, however, from reading Adam's blogs, I am of the impression that he still has no idea why what he did was wrong other than the fact that he lost his job. Furthermore, I can almost guarantee that if Apple had not fired him and just slapped his wrist that he would continue to do exactly the same thing, but hide it better.

I have read them as well, and i think this is debatable, but i do admit that they are at the least ambiguous. i think now that he has had his pants scared off him, if he were able to come back, he would DEFINITELY be more careful, but there is a lot to be said for excessive lenience. i meant to quote Bardolph from Henry V some time ago in here - "do not, when thou art king, hang a thief!"
Henry replied, "No; thou shalt."

now that i think of it, this may not be in the play itself, but rather in Branagh's ingenious 1989 film rendition of it, in which case the lines are probably from Henry IV or something. that play/movie is a great analysis of guilt and mercy, among other things. i highly recommend it to anyone who's interested in this issue.

I think that we've resolved our issues for the most part, and are in agreement at least on principle, if not on the actual implementation of it.

I response to the comments that Apple has lost a talented and well liked employee, I don't know what to say. If he had worked for me I would have fired him even if he was the best most loved employee I had. Teenagers who want to work for Apple are a dime a dozen, and I'll bet that Apple will have no problem filling his shoes.

he's certainly replaceable, i'll give you that one. i would jump on his job, myself. unfortunately, there are no Apple stores here in Austin :(.

Dave Marsh

Feb 11, 2003, 06:32 PM

Awwww, misspelled. Probably one of the most commonly misspelled words in the English language! :D

janey

Feb 11, 2003, 07:03 PM

okay...a thread about Adam turns into a thread bout misspelling? Okay...
Adam does not deserve to be fired and that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. You can say that i'm exercising my first amendment rights (if there is such a thing).

HoRNeT7

Feb 11, 2003, 11:10 PM

Jesus Christ.

Suddenly, all the board trolls come out and take their anger and their pathetic little whining about how the poor guy "deserved to be fired".

People make mistakes, and also deserve to have second chances. He was negligent, yes, but almost every person who posted on this topic have probably been moreso.

I really don't see about what Apple seems to gain about firing one intelligent and upcoming employees.

coolsoldier

Feb 11, 2003, 11:15 PM

I will say it is unlikely adam will get rehired. I signed the petition because I don't think it's fair, but that's the way it is. Adam is young. He'll get over it, he'll find another job, and he'll be more careful in the future. I think apple was stupid to put information they didn't want divulged in front of a 19 year old kid, but what he did was a mistake in judgement. PBZ showed disrespect for Adam for whatever reason, but that's done. Case Closed.

Incedently, Whois data for PBZ shows an adress in my home town of Baton Rouge. We have a joke around here that everything bad has roots in Baton Rouge (from the Beltway Sniper, to our own Serial Killer to the American Taliban). This is just more proof :)

I am done reading or posting in this thread. Continue your discussions about spelling.

shadowfax

Feb 11, 2003, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by HoRNeT7
Jesus Christ.

hahahaha! two words for what i was trying to say. and i thought you were cursing for a second!

HoRNeT7

Feb 11, 2003, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by coolsoldier
[B]I will say it is unlikely adam will get rehired. I signed the petition because I don't think it's fair, but that's the way it is. Adam is young. He'll get over it, he'll find another job, and he'll be more careful in the future. I think apple was stupid to put information they didn't want divulged in front of a 19 year old kid, but what he did was a mistake in judgement. PBZ showed disrespect for Adam for whatever reason, but that's done. Case Closed.

Well, that information was necessary to an Apple Store employee, as he needed to use the program that would retrieve customer information.

Also, I'm pretty sure they would be informed about an upcoming project a bit before it comes out, so they could provide iformation about it and successfully sell it.

janey

Feb 12, 2003, 12:25 AM

Originally posted by coolsoldier
...Adam is young. He'll get over it, he'll find another job, and he'll be more careful in the future...
Ummm the problem is that getting fired by Apple is gonna ruin his entire resumé. He's not gonna be able to get a decent job for a long time.

BustANut

Feb 12, 2003, 12:38 AM

hh :

Yes, this is the direction I was thinking. If Apple's foolish enough to provide significantly sensitive corporate info to a mere retail employee, *shame on Apple*. Mistakes like this are bound to occur, day in and day out.

Ok, I somewhat agree with what you stated. However, you are, in a sense, removing any responsibility from the employees themselves (or, possibly you're just being sarcastic). Employees still must adhere to ethics policies and constantly ask themselves "am I supposed to be doing this?". If you're not sure of the answer to that question, ask someone above you so that the issue becomes *their* responsibility.

The private, behind-the-firewall access is provided to the stores so that MG's can get access to Apple's "internal" kbase articles, not viewable by the public. However, I would certainly approve of any decision made to yank access to internal file servers from the retail stores - all necessary software is MAILED to the stores via FedEx for installation on back-of-house and front-of-house systems, so it's entirely unnecessary to allow access to internal file servers at the Retail stores.

Exactly. And since the Retail environment is inherently insecure, so Apple's a fool if they think that they can prevent simple screenshots of some of this stuff from ever getting out.

And on these lines, I think the next time I go into an Apple Store, I'll take along a personal Digital Camera and play the legal role of a screen-in-public-view Paparatzi, if for no other purpose than to show Apple that their Retail-level NDA is an excercise in futility.

I disagree there - Apple shouldn't have to take measures to prevent those types of incidents. Well, let me restate that -- Apple DOES take measures to prevent "leakage" of confidential information - it's called "You're f'n fired, b*tch!". ALL employees know this, but apparently this didn't phase Adam.

Retail employees are told time & time again NOT to commit such acts as they violate Apple's NDA policies. Adam might not be all that bright, but he's certainly not a Lemming - he can make his own decisions and must certainly held liable for the consequences of those decisions.

As for the digital camera idea, about 6 months ago Apple enacted a policy that CUSTOMERS are NOT permitted to bring in digital cameras to take any sort of flash photography/video inside of the store, unless they bring the camera in for a training session and are CONSTANTLY supervised by an employee of the store. If you have trouble believing what I say, stop by your local Apple Store and speak with one of the managers about this. So, that basically shoots down that idea.

The dillemma that I see is that by many reports, Adam was providing superior customer service, and that's Apple's loss.

Apple has to realize that young people are prone to mistakes, and that when you have an employee who the customer likes, you have to forgive minor indiscretions such as this one appears to be.

I would disagree that firing Adam was a "loss" for Apple. He was a sales associate, not some vice president or virtuoso software developer that Apple depends on. I'm not going to argue whether or not he was excellent at selling Apple's goods, it doesn't really matter if he's the best sales associate from here to Mississippi, he violated a fairly major policy. If anything, firing Adam was a gain for Apple - he definitely won't be leaking any more confidential information, AND, Apple freed up some payroll (most of the Apple stores are still grossly over-hired and over-staffed).

This is where I have to bring in the "life just ain't fair" concept. Yeah, people undoubtedly make mistakes, but I would say that what Adam did was too intentional and blatant to simply pass it off as a mistake. I'm sure that at some point this thought, or something similar crossed his mind "hey, maybe I shouldn't be taking screen shots of sensitive information". Then again, I'm not a mind reader, maybe Adam was stoned or under the influence of some other substance and therefore his decision-making was impaired....but, oh, I forgot, this is another policy violation worthy of instant termination.

Let me state for the record that I LOATHE Apple as a company. I worked for them as a senior software engineer for a couple of years and they were, by far, the WORST employer I ever had. I absolutely love it when I see employees that have the balls (or lack the intelligence) to leak company information. Apple sucks as an employer, but I still like their products. Anyone who says "oh, Apple is an awesome company to work for" is either in their first month of emploment there, NOT really employed by Apple, or is just BS'ing to mask their contempt for the company.

Several buddies of mine currently work at Apple stores (most are there part-time, some are full-time - I pity them), all of them are currently seeking employment elsewhere when not at work. The only reason they've stayed there is due to the employee purchase plan (25% off a Mac system makes part-time employment worthwhile if you can tolerate the stupidity of the idiot retail managers).

So, hh, you brought up some decent points but I definitely would say that you are biased here - you're too pro-Adam. Look at the larger picture, he is certainly responsible for his actions, no matter how little or how unimportant the screenshots may have been regarding "sensitive" information. The facts are clear - Adam took screenshots of something he shouldn't have had gotten into in the first place (he wasn't an MG or a Manager so he was DEFINITELY not permitted to even see that information), he most likely knew the consequences, and went ahead and did it anyway.

I rest my case.

shadowfax

Feb 12, 2003, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by übergeek

Ummm the problem is that getting fired by Apple is gonna ruin his entire resumé. He's not gonna be able to get a decent job for a long time.

i don't know... that's not necessarily true. it can't help, but i bet he'll get another job without to much hullabaloo. seriously, much worse things have happened to people. it's not as bad as a dishonorable discharge from the army, i can't imagine. and even that is not as it used to be.

janey

Feb 12, 2003, 12:41 AM

yeah but if you wanted to hire him wouldn't you hesitate to think bout how exactly trustworthy he was?

shadowfax

Feb 12, 2003, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by übergeek
yeah but if you wanted to hire him wouldn't you hesitate to think bout how exactly trustworthy he was?

that goes with the territory of screwing up, i guess. He can explain himself to prospective employers, write little cheesy essays about the lessons he learned from his experience with apple... someone will have the mercy that we (i) have been saying is so needed in situations like these.

if your boyfriend lies to you, is the relationship over just like that? especially if it is just a white lie? someone will have mercy on him. faith!

shadowfax

Feb 12, 2003, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by BustANut
you brought up some decent points but I definitely would say that you are biased here - you're too pro-Adam.

now that someone's mentioned Jesus, isn't it almost ironic that the guy's name is Adam? anyone else think about this and chuckle?

BustANut

Feb 12, 2003, 09:32 AM

Just wanted to respond to a couple of quotes by shadowfax:

now that someone's mentioned Jesus, isn't almost ironic that the guy's name is Adam? anyone else think about this and chuckle?

No.

that goes with the territory of screwing up, i guess. He can explain himself to prospective employers, write little cheesy essays about the lessons he learned from his experience with apple... someone will have the mercy that we (i) have been saying is so needed in situations like these.

Very true. OR, he can rely on chance, leave the whole Apple thing off from is resume (it's not really related to his career goals, unless he wants a life as a salesman), and hope that no one ever brings it up at an interview. I've interviewed plenty of young, aspiring software engineers; and if I were interviewing Adam or someone like Adam, I'd want to know all about his programming experience and his curriculum at whatever college he was attending. I couldn't give a rat's a$$ about some job at a retail store.

It's not dishonest to "not mention" something on a resume (especially if you're fired), but it is dishonest to twist the truth and lie if you're specifically asked, "Why the hell did you leave that job?", or "Were you fired?". I'd still mention that I once worked for Apple, but I would keep the description of the work responsibilities as simple as possible in order to prevent prospective employers from questioning the whole thing.

Unless Adam changes his major of study to marketing and/or retail management, I'd say that his termination from Apple has little or no bearing on his future career plans (unless he wants to develop software as an Apple employee - he'll never be eligible for rehire there due to the nature of his termination).