Wii Hardware surprises to come... [Archive]

mrgreen4242

May 12, 2006, 10:13 PM

Ok, this didn't get much notice in the massive thread I mentioned it on, and I was hoping for some comments, so as much as I hate it, I have to start another Wii thread.

Ok, there is a video interview with Perrin Kaplan, VP in charge of Marketing for Nintendo, over on IGN's Wii site where she is asked "are there more hardware secrets in store for the Wii" and she replies, "yes, yes, yes. Next Question."

The next bit of info is this, http://revolution.ign.com/articles/708/708155p1.html, interview with a Konami developer. He mentions that the Wii has "built in physics simulation".

There were rumors many many months ago talking about the Revolution (at the time) having a hardware PPU. I think that's the last bit of news. I think it will push the capabilities of the system to "the next level". Not only will there be the impressive physics simulations allowing the Wii to do the things that the multi CPU core 360 and PS3 can do, but also free up CPU cycles and memory for improved AI and, yes, graphics.

I think that's the last piece of the puzzle. It will give the system the little edge it needs to pull of some cool effects and games, as well a little more headroom to make us say "wow" at the graphics, as promised.

What do ou guys think?

Haoshiro

May 12, 2006, 10:16 PM

I think if that quote is true then it is very likely it does have some sory of PPU.

That would definitely be nice and I'm sure developers would appreciate it.

cartoonfox

May 12, 2006, 10:50 PM

Mario Galaxy and Smash Bros. Brawl has allready WOW'ed me. : ]

Anyway, the GPU is still under tight wraps, either it's not finished yet or they are keeping it a secret for other reasons. Even the CPU is know finalised and known.
Also, the FINAL dev kits will be available in June. Hard to beleive but most games (bar Nintendo perhaps) are running on basicaly Gamecubes with more RAM.

Edit, ok not hard to believe for some games, but hey Red Steel and Metroid Prime look cool, right? :p

peace

Ayre

May 13, 2006, 12:17 AM

I dunno, don't you think the physics calculations are already being done? I mean, it takes a lot of technology to translate remote movements to actual game control. Maybe that's what they're talking about when they mean seperate physics calculations.

sam10685

May 13, 2006, 02:42 AM

i think a PPU would be awsome... a lot of games' graphics 'wowed' me but some games looked silly-- like they had a lot of 2D pictures plastered onto stuff to make them look 3D. hopefully it'll be cool whatever it is...

Dagless

May 13, 2006, 05:58 AM

I think it has. Reason? Theres a video from Metroid Prime 3 where the player has to open a door by shooting these 4 bits off it. when they are destroyed a rope connecting to the door drops. It's such a tiny, miniscule reason but it just seems right. The physics look very powerful, very real. It's more than just software... possibly.

It's a good idea too. Nintendo said photo-realistic graphics are already upon us. That much is true, the next steps to realism are going to be small steps, we're just pulling ourselves up to that plateau now. But there are so many advancements that still need doing away from the graphics. Such as immersion and physics.

GFLPraxis

May 13, 2006, 01:59 PM

sam10685

May 13, 2006, 02:18 PM

anouncement of a PPU would probably go along with the anouncement of the system specs. (which may or may not happen.) another hardware secret will probably be much bigger.

mrgreen4242

May 13, 2006, 02:57 PM

The developers I interviewed told me that as far as they were aware they already had the final kits. At least two seperate developers told me this.

That's good to hear. The more time they have with the kits the better. It doesn't mean there aren't hardware features in the final product that are just being emulated on the dev kits.

rob finch

May 14, 2006, 05:19 AM

So there's still hope for Red Steel to iron out it's reported problems then. It also might explain why the Ubisoft guy demonstrating at E3 had problems controlling the game. If Ubi haven't had the final dev kits yet, it can't have been easy to reproduce the control that we saw in Zelda and tennis.

mac000

May 14, 2006, 04:22 PM

mac000

May 14, 2006, 04:27 PM

ok here's a theory :

1. obviously nintendo looked a lot more complete than Sony at E3 and they are both "assumed" to be out with their next gen systems around the same time. Maybe Nintendo is pushing back their system even though it is very well good to go so they can put in a PPU when the prices of them go down later in the year?

2. question though: do games have to be "built" for a PPU? say they just slapped one in there now, would game automatically pick up on this and be more realistic or not?

Dagless

May 14, 2006, 05:15 PM

2. question though: do games have to be "built" for a PPU? say they just slapped one in there now, would game automatically pick up on this and be more realistic or not?

The PPU acts as a shortcut. Where a graphics card you'd say "make it glow" or whatever, you'd say "this object has this weight" and "this object has another" so when it collides it will do it's own thing. Of course it can be disabled. You wouldn't want physics in Tetris... would you?! :)

Physics are the way forward. HL2 taught me that way back when.

mrgreen4242

May 14, 2006, 05:19 PM

i really hope Wii has a PPU, it would really make up for no HD and it would be better than HD and no PPU.

has anyone done any investigating to find out how true this might be? Besides the quote " as the Wii system has built in physics simulation" from http://wiinintendo.net/?cat=7

what else could he be refering to? and why wouldn't Nintendo include the "Wii's with the PPU in them" at E3?

any thoughts? :confused: :confused:

It could be refering to a software physics API. Nintendo could have just bundled a physics software package, like Havock, into the SDK to make it easy on developers.

Now, them doing that wouldn't preclude a hardware PPU, however. It could be compiling for execution on the CPU on the dev kits/early Wii builds, but be later targeted for a PPU once that hardware is finalized.

mac000

May 14, 2006, 05:36 PM

The PPU acts as a shortcut. Where a graphics card you'd say "make it glow" or whatever, you'd say "this object has this weight" and "this object has another" so when it collides it will do it's own thing. Of course it can be disabled. You wouldn't want physics in Tetris... would you?! :)

Physics are the way forward. HL2 taught me that way back when.

oh i understand, what i was asking was - Since Nintendo obviously did not have a PPU in their Wii's at E3 and the games are already in the process of completetion, if they put a PPU into the Wii as a final step will the games automatically work with a PPU engine? Or must they be written for a PPU? I am assuming no, correcT?

mac000

May 14, 2006, 05:37 PM

It could be refering to a software physics API. Nintendo could have just bundled a physics software package, like Havock, into the SDK to make it easy on developers.

Now, them doing that wouldn't preclude a hardware PPU, however. It could be compiling for execution on the CPU on the dev kits/early Wii builds, but be later targeted for a PPU once that hardware is finalized.

Whats the difference between a sofware physics API and a PPU?

Dagless

May 14, 2006, 05:41 PM

Whats the difference between a sofware physics API and a PPU?

Physics API is software driven. It seeps off the main CPU. a PPU is the hardware version of a physics API.
Think trying to run a game in software rendering rather than using a dedicated graphics card. It's a world of difference, depending on the power of the original CPU and the PPU. Ie. the PS3's cell chip could use 1 CPU as a PPU and maybe get away with it.

plinkoman

May 14, 2006, 05:44 PM

Dagless

May 14, 2006, 05:48 PM

I mentioned a while back about HD upscaling. The 3D chip produces a 480p image, and a separate 2D chip upscales that to 720p using a rendering technique that does not affect the 3D one at all. Median or some kind of smart blur. You've all seen those Super Sai and other scaling effects. It's a possibility and would be quite cheap to implement and requires NO coding from the developers at all.

Forgot to say; developers would have to code for the physics chip. but it would be very simple indeed and require no real extra coding on their end.

mrgreen4242

May 14, 2006, 05:48 PM

the one thing i'm having trouble grasping about this ppu, is if it is so cheap (to be put in a $200ish console), yet has such great gains... why wouldn't microsoft and sony have included one too?

I'd like to believe nintendo has something up their sleeves that will make the wii's graphics, though non-HD, rival the 360 and ps3; after all, i always took pride in that metroid prime looked better than anything that could be produced on a ps2; but i just don't see it realistically having that great an effect. :cool:

The PS3 and 360 are multi-core CPU systems. They don't really need another chip for physics work; they can offload it to another CPU and be fine. The Wii has a single core CPU, so could utilize the extra help from a PPU well.

There was talks from both ATI and NVidia that their GPUs could be repurposed to a PPU with the right software. If the Wii does have one, I wouldn't be surprised if it was based on an older ATI GPU design.

mac000

May 14, 2006, 06:23 PM

whens the next pausable time Nintendo will talk about the Wii, or will they come out of no where?

mrgreen4242

May 14, 2006, 06:31 PM

whens the next pausable time Nintendo will talk about the Wii, or will they come out of no where?

TGS - Tokyo Games Show, or something like that. Want to say it's September. I am guessing that we will hear some other "out of the blue" info in July as well, and then everything else at TGS. Then in stores eary November.

Not that I know anything, just speculating.

Dagless

May 14, 2006, 06:43 PM

TGS - Tokyo Games Show, or something like that. Want to say it's September. I am guessing that we will hear some other "out of the blue" info in July as well, and then everything else at TGS. Then in stores eary November.

Not that I know anything, just speculating.

The force is strong in this one. I predict the same.

Symtex

May 14, 2006, 06:50 PM

My prediction : NO PPU in Wii. Nintendo is trying to cut down on features to have a low price.

mac000

May 14, 2006, 06:59 PM

Apparently the Havok physics engine will be built into the Wii console. Announced on the official Havok website.
http://www.havok.com/

Symtex

May 14, 2006, 07:00 PM

Apparently the Havok physics engine will be built into the Wii console. Announced on the official Havok website.
http://www.havok.com/

It just mean Wii has an API that supports Havok physics. Not a PPU.

mac000

May 14, 2006, 07:08 PM

could it possibly mean that nintendo's graphic card has the engine in it?

http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/03/20/nvidiahavok/index.php

Symtex

May 14, 2006, 07:14 PM

could it possibly mean that nintendo's graphic card has the engine in it?

http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/03/20/nvidiahavok/index.php

I don't think so. btw, PS3 and X360 has the havok API instruction set too.

mrgreen4242

May 14, 2006, 07:19 PM

My prediction : NO PPU in Wii. Nintendo is trying to cut down on features to have a low price.

The cost of a basic PPU in something that will be made in the 10's of millions = ~$12. It's about the same cost (and same product) as a low end GPU.

Anyways, not saying that there will be one for sure... just that cost won't keep them from doing it.

Apparently the Havok physics engine will be built into the Wii console. Announced on the official Havok website.

It doesn't mention if it's part of the official SDK or just available to developers. The Havok engine, in general, is licensed per game, not for a while system. I'd tend to think they will keep it this way.

GFLPraxis

May 14, 2006, 07:30 PM

could it possibly mean that nintendo's graphic card has the engine in it?

http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/03/20/nvidiahavok/index.php

The engine is software, not hardware.

mac000

May 14, 2006, 07:42 PM

The engine is software, not hardware.

well HL 2 looked pretty good

sam10685

May 14, 2006, 08:06 PM

time for the dumb-ass question of the day... what is a PPU and what would it do for the graphics?

edit: i know what it stands for. 'physics processing unit.'

thejadedmonkey

May 14, 2006, 08:13 PM

PPU= Physics Processing Unit

If you take a rock and throw it at the ground, it will bounce in one direction. Do it a 2nd time and it will bounce a different direction.

With software physics (ie, no PPU API's) each time you throw a virtual rock at the ground, it will be programmed to bounce in a certain way. With Physics API's in place, each time you throw a virtual rock it will bounce randomly, like in real life.

If a computer has a PPU in it, the API's that would be run off of the CPU are instead run off of the PPU.

Basically, it reduces strain on the CPU, so that the CPU can do other things, resulting in better graphics and more realistic interactions between objects.

RoxStrongo

May 14, 2006, 09:03 PM

It doesn't mention if it's part of the official SDK or just available to developers. The Havok engine, in general, is licensed per game, not for a while system. I'd tend to think they will keep it this way.

I distinctly remember Nintendo mentioning the fact it had teamed up with Havok also. Was no indication whether it was software of hardware related. I've seen in the ign forum that Nintendo have apparently teamed up with pixart for motion sensing. Not really sure of the implications but could be eyetoy style or it could just improve usability.

crachoar

May 14, 2006, 09:48 PM

Hard to beleive but most games (bar Nintendo perhaps) are running on basicaly Gamecubes with more RAM.

Edit, ok not hard to believe for some games, but hey Red Steel and Metroid Prime look cool, right? :p

They look like Gamecube games, using more RAM.

Actually, 'Red Steel' looked atrocious.

RoxStrongo

May 14, 2006, 10:01 PM

HiRez

May 14, 2006, 10:19 PM

If it's true that the Wii development system has the Havok physics engine as a standard feature, that could bode well for a dedicated physics chip. Without the API, developers would have to know about the chip in order to take advantage of it. But, if the chip works natively and automatically with the Havok engine, and developers are coding to the Havok API, everything will work with no PPU present (in prerelease hardware), but will work faster and automatically when a PPU is inserted later (in theory). Similar to how many Quartz graphics operations will be automatically accelerated by activating Quartz 2D Extreme, even though it didn't exist when the Quartz APIs were written. Of course it doesn't necessarily mean anything and if I had to guess, I'd guess the guy was just talking about Havok and there will be no dedicated PPU in the system.

Spanky Deluxe

May 14, 2006, 10:31 PM

Apparently the Havok physics engine will be built into the Wii console. Announced on the official Havok website.
http://www.havok.com/

Good find!! If its built into the sdk then it is the kind of thing that could be rerouted to a ppu afterwards if they did choose to go that route.

GFLPraxis

May 14, 2006, 11:41 PM

They look like Gamecube games, using more RAM.

Actually, 'Red Steel' looked atrocious.

From a technical standpoint, Red Steel wasn't bad; in fact, it had some staggeringly impressive lighting.

Unfortunately, the environments were INCREDIBLY ugly. More the fault of the modellers than the engine.

Zelda looked REALLY good. Some of the people in line were here at last year's E3 and commented how much better it looked on the Wii- there was noticeably more going on on the screen.

Those GameCube's in the back might have been overclocked.

GFLPraxis

May 14, 2006, 11:44 PM

hows this for a hardware suprise?

http://nintendogossip.com/?p=180#comments

the reason no specs have been announced is that they haven't been finalised. why would nintendo be using their own dev kits if the hardware was final? i think a ppu or enhanced graphics are likely to arise.

That's interesting...
The devs I talked to at Blitz were actually somewhat excited about the system's capabilties and thought it would look notably better than GameCube once developers got the hang of it. They also said that as far as they were aware of they were using finalized Wii dev kits (the Hudson guys said the same thing) and the hardware was final.

Dagless

May 15, 2006, 07:28 AM

In responce to the "it looks the same as Gamecube but with more RAM" *how is that possible, can you see ram?*

I have never seen Gamecube games with no obvious signs of polygons and with HDR lighting. Please direct me to a Gamecube game that has those. :)

AlmostThere

May 15, 2006, 08:12 AM

The force is strong in this one.

Speaking of which:

Physics + Wii controller = Force powers + Lightsabre = Ultimate Star Wars.

Moria

May 15, 2006, 08:57 AM

I reckon that Nintendo were planning to spill everything at the Press Conference, but then Sony announced the tilt sensor controller and they decided not to. TGS I think...

crachoar

May 15, 2006, 10:07 AM

In responce to the "it looks the same as Gamecube but with more RAM" *how is that possible, can you see ram?*

In response to your lack of percetion and deductive reasoning...

The person I quoted had mentioned that they were, in a sense, utterly impressed with the way the games looked. My comment was, in sum, 'I'm not impressed'. The 'Gamecube with more RAM' comment was originally posted by him, and I simply re-used it to prove my point that the games are only marginally improved in the graphics department, so it's not that hard to believe that the Wii (or it's Dev Kit) is essentially, a souped-up Cube.

There.

As for your second statement, I don't see a different between 'Prime 2' and 'Prime 3' aside from some (possibly animated) physics. The controls seemed to suffer the same problem as 'Red Steel', and I hate the fact that there's still a lock-on. It doesn't look as precise as I was hoping it would be, but I'll hold judgement until I own it or borrow it.

Sue me.

Dagless

May 15, 2006, 11:59 AM

Differences I've seen in Prime 2 and 3

-Much more detailed environments, which is a hard feat to accomplish going off the detail in Prime.
-Gui is simpler. fits with Nintendo's strategy.
-HDR lighting. it's all glowy and showy
-Couldn't see a polygon. not one that shouldn't be there. Samus's helmet looks smooth as can be.
-Don't know if this is HDR lightings fault- but the light is more natural. there are soft elements that wasn't across in current gen systems.

Things I didn't like

- The explosion effects look toned down from previous games. infact...
- the whole experience looks like the old Metroid Prime Hunters Demo to the full-game scenario again.

Oh and the physics bits aren't animated. Watch as one rope falls down (in the IGN trailer) it bounces off another block beneath it. it doesn't fall through. it bounces. so it's either a physics system in there or they made 2 animations, 1 without the object in the way and 1 with. hm.