DVD-R Only?

[MacRumors]

Despite indications (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/02/20030220194342.shtml) that Apple is using a Sony DVD writer in at least some of their newest iMacs, News.com (http://news.com.com/2009-1088-984352.html?tag=lh) reports that Sony Superdrive owners will be unable to take full advantage of the hardware:

However, Apple confirmed that iMacs, even those with Sony DVD burners, can only use DVD-R media. The Mac maker wouldn't say whether the +R media support was disabled in hardware or software.

Apple offically supports the "DVD-R" format.

[KershMan]

I have an 15", 800 Mhz iMac I bought last summer with the Pioneer Superdrive. I have been able to use DVD-RW media using Toast. Toast allows me to reformat and reuse as well.

I have only been able to use the Apple burning software for DVD-R.

So, I would hope the new iMacs are the same. There is no reason to disable the functionality in the firmware. I think it should only be a matter of Apple supports only DVD-R. But Toast should work with DVD-RW. If not, Apple/Sony would have explicitly set the firmware that way.

I just can't believe they would do that. Why would they?

[KershMan]

Oh, now I see. They are talking DVD-R vs. DVD+R. Still, I would question if it is really disabled or if Apple is sticking to the party line that they only support DVD-R.

Anyone have a new iMac with the Sony and Toast? I would hope Toast could burn to DVD+R.

[conceptdev]

Has anyone tried the external Sony FW multiformat DVD+/-R with toast?

[springscansing]

Can someone elighten me as to why DVD+R would be an important feature, and which companies are backing each format? It's been awhile since I read up on this, and I forget.

[Macpoops]

ok so how long til someone hacks it? I don't even own an imac or a superdrive, but it will be interest to see how long it would take someone to hack it

[paulc]

Of COURSE, the evil monopoly just this morning joined a coalition of companies to promote/enforce the DVD+R/RW format. I guess they weren't too happy with Safari & Keynote.

I'm pretty sure that "-" had a defined market lead a year ago. Has that dried up? Why?

Far as I know/have read SO FAR, I can't see any material difference between the two, despite coming across the usual "it's so much better" without any reasoning behind such statements.

[yzedf]

Gateway shows the way to a G4 Powerbook

In a print ad touting digital music solutions, a recent Gateway ad features an urban hipster jamming to tunes on his notebook--a PowerBook G4 Titanium notebook to be specific. Gateway said the inclusion of the Mac notebook was a production error and said the ad ran in just one publication in December before being pulled.
[Feb. 19, 2003]

Above was at the very bottom of the linked page.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by springscansing
Can someone elighten me as to why DVD+R would be an important feature, and which companies are backing each format? It's been awhile since I read up on this, and I forget.

Probably the biggest important feature si that DVD+ is a part of the Mt. Ranier spec which allows PCs to R/W removalbe storage (with a focus on cd/dvd) without the need for additional software or drivers.

[Sol]

Are we forgetting that SuperDrives can also burn DVD-RWs? Apple hides that fact to sell more of the write-once DVD-R discs, or at least that is what a cinical user would think. By the way, the DVD+R format is completely redundant since it offers nothing that DVD-R has not allready offered.

[bignumbers]

Two possibilities that I can think of.

1) Apple had trouble getting the Pioneer drives, got the Sony's cheaper, or just wanted a second source (a good thing), or

2) Apple is planning to support DVD+RW as their rewriting format, but not until some future OS update. This gives them a head start with hardware support in some models without announcing anything. Maybe when 10.3 is announced they'll also provide this drive as standard in all Macs. Just not yet.

If Apple gets bogged down supporting every little feature of every OEM'd part they have, they'd have less time for the big stuff. I'm sure Toast will support (of not already) the +RW for those few who really need it now.

[Bear]

Originally posted by springscansing
Can someone elighten me as to why DVD+R would be an important feature, and which companies are backing each format? It's been awhile since I read up on this, and I forget.
The main reason why this would be a nice feature is that it means you don't have to worry if someone hands you a disc in DVD+R or DVD-R format. For my own needs, I'll stick to DVD-R. Especially since I have some systems that can only handle DVD-R.

[Jaykay]

Im just going to assume that maybe apple just didnt update the disc burning software in the OS to support DVD+R rather than specificaly stopping users from using it. Id also assume that it would be possible to use with a program like toast or something...

[bikertwin]

The "+" camp has a number of advantages:

* As someone else mentioned, Mt. Ranier support

* Erasing speed: Erasing a DVD-RW takes minutes while a DVD+RW takes seconds

* Writing Speed: The + camp has always been ahead of the - camp. When DVD+RW came out in Oct 2001, it was writing at 2.4x while DVD-RW was writing at 1x. DVD-RW only recently got boosted to 2x. DVD+R started at 2.4x, and both -R and +R are now at 4x. Oh, and + drives write CD-R and CD-RW faster than - drives.

* Reliability: Even though you can write to DVD-R at speeds greater than 1x, for *serious* applications it is recommended that you only write at 1x because of all the write errors/corrections at 2x and higher. Check out the DVD Studio Pro forum on Apple's Discussions page for evidence of this. There is *no problem* writing to 2.4x or 4x on DVD+R or DVD+RW.

* Compatibility: One area that didn't quite live up to the + hype was compatibility. The + group promised much higher compatibility with DVD players before their products shipped. After they shipped and comparisons were done, +R was shown to be about as compatible as -R, and +RW was shown to be about as compatible as -RW, so no biggie here. However, Trai Forrester (a somewhat eccentric but very smart DVD expert) has recently stated that at "reasonable" data rates (6 Mbps or less), + is much more compatible than - ; it's only when you get to marginal data rates (near the max of 9.8 Mbps) that the compatibility of + goes down to near that of - .

But overall I was much happier with my PC's + writer than I am with my Mac's - writer. If Apple supported both + and - I would be much happier. And that way, you wouldn't have to worry who won the wars because your Mac could do both.

[JW Pepper]

My new 1ghz iMac has a Sony drive and I can burn to DVD+RW from the finder. However... iDVD will only burn to DVD-R it will not burn DVD-RW, DVD+RW or DVD+R.

[bikertwin]

Keep in mind that all current Macs can *READ* DVD+R and DVD+RW in addition to DVD-R and DVD-RW.

It's not like Beta vs. VHS tapes. Those were totally incompatible. + vs. - is just a WRITE compatibility difference.

You can't use a Pioneer - drive to *WRITE* to a + disc, but you can certainly *READ* it.

More (somewhat biased) information on + drives is at http://www.dvdplusrw.org

[bikertwin]

Originally posted by JW Pepper
My new 1ghz iMac has a Sony drive and I can burn to DVD+RW from the finder. However... iDVD will only burn to DVD-R it will not burn DVD-RW, DVD+RW or DVD+R.

On my older iMac with the Pioneer DVR-104, I can now write to DVD-RW with iDVD 3. Are you using version 2 or 3?

Also, even with version 2, you could do the "switch": put in a DVD-R when first prompted, then when iDVD says it's generating menus just eject the DVD-R and replace it with a blank DVD-RW and it's none the wiser.

Does this work on your Sony?

[cryptochrome]

I'd like to smack the exec who decided it was a good idea to name an alternative DVD R/RW format with a name that differed by only one, non-alphanumeric character, so you can't even search google for it properly. It's a damned recipe for confusion. I reckon that's at least part of the reason that apple's avoiding it for now - because if they started selling DVD-Rs and DVD+R in the apple store they'd get a million confused calls.

[FelixDerKater]

What is the difference among the standards?

[eric_n_dfw]

Ars has a good article about the formats and why MicroSoft is behind the "+" standard. (And no, it's not just because Apple went with the "-" standard.)

http://arstechnica.com/archive/news/1046168812.html

[FelixDerKater]

Thanks for the info, eric_n_dfw. Now it makes more sense.

[JW Pepper]

Originally posted by bikertwin
On my older iMac with the Pioneer DVR-104, I can now write to DVD-RW with iDVD 3. Are you using version 2 or 3?

Also, even with version 2, you could do the "switch": put in a DVD-R when first prompted, then when iDVD says it's generating menus just eject the DVD-R and replace it with a blank DVD-RW and it's none the wiser.

Does this work on your Sony?

Well it rejected the +RW outright (iDVD3) but I did not try the eject trick. I have not tried the DVD-RW yet, but if it works no one will be more pleased than I.

[greenstork]

Here is an explanation of the companies supporting each format and may explain why Apple is picking one format over another:

http://www.macnews.com/2003/02/24/dvdrwalliance

[BenRoethig]

The inclusion of the Sony drive is a very good idea. If I was to order a new PowerMac or iMac, I would request one. Right now we don't know who's going to win the DVD-burner format war and I wouldn't want to be stuck with a burner that could be left out in the cold. I wish the DVD Forum and the DVD+RW Alliance would get together, decide on a final format, and let the consumers breathe a little easier.

[ktlx]

Originally posted by BenRoethig
I wish the DVD Forum and the DVD+RW Alliance would get together, decide on a final format, and let the consumers breathe a little easier.

I do not see that happening. I see the DVD+RW Alliance taking the stand that the only technical problem with the DVD+RW standard is that it is not compatible with DVD-RW devices. Since the current penetration of any DVD recording standard compared to the total addressable market is tiny, there is little reason for them to budge.

The major pusher for DVD-RW in computers has been Apple and I doubt any of the DVD+RW Alliance members give a rat's ass about what Apple has or has not done. Most of them are even Apple's competitors.

The interesting thing in my mind is what Pioneer does. Apple is hardly married to DVD-RW and could follow the Sony path in a heartbeat.

[lelereb]

As I know all superdrives read -format, and only recent superdrives read also +format.

The use of +format can introduce a backward compatibility problem. I don't see real reason to use it, benchmarks and stats tends to overstimate any differences that in real use you note with difficulty.

If you feel good with -format keep using it.

[timbloom]

Here is the main reason I think DVD+RW is a good idea:

"Lossless-linking technology enables you to perform basic editing tasks right on the disc.

No need to reload all your DVD contents back to your PC to make minor changes

No need to re-burn an entire DVD after making small edits"

That was taken from http://www.dvdrw.com/customerbenefits.html

Basically stating, you don't have to erase and reburn the disk when you want to add something to it. Just add it dynamically. Sounds good to me, expecially for backup purposes!

Is it just me or is this a HUGE difference?!

[Dunepilot]

Originally posted by bikertwin
Keep in mind that all current Macs can *READ* DVD+R and DVD+RW in addition to DVD-R and DVD-RW.

It's not like Beta vs. VHS tapes. Those were totally incompatible. + vs. - is just a WRITE compatibility difference.

You can't use a Pioneer - drive to *WRITE* to a + disc, but you can certainly *READ* it.

More (somewhat biased) information on + drives is at http://www.dvdplusrw.org

But I can't read DVD+RW on my combo drive in a newish dual 867 :rolleyes: .

is it only 'superdrives' that'll read DVD+RW?

[gotohamish]

I, like many of you, am waiting on the Dual 1.42 - do you think that it will have the Sony drive in? Is there a pattern emerging?

[DharvaBinky]

http://arstechnica.com/archive/news/1046168812.html

:)

Dharvabinky

[tumbleweed]

Originally posted by bikertwin
The "+" camp has a number of advantages:

* As someone else mentioned, Mt. Ranier support

* Erasing speed:
* Writing Speed:
* Reliability:
* Compatibility:


And don't forget another big technical advantage the + camp has over the - camp: VBR recording!

I've noticed the price parity in the stores for media seems to be now heading in favour of the + camp, as well (though you have to look hard to notice that). The speed advantage of - over + is going to be going away _very_ soon with the next generation of drives, as well, so that's a non-issue.

Yeah, + has it all over -. Just look at the names. :)

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by tumbleweed
And don't forget another big technical advantage the + camp has over the - camp: VBR recording!Um, no.

VBR has nothing to do with the Media any more than a MSDOS formatted floppy has over an HFS formatted one. (or a Digital 8 tape has over MiniDV for that matter <--- just had to throw that in to confuse the matter! :D )

VBR is part of the MPEG-2 encoding process. (not that MPEG-2 and VBR are tied together exclusively either)

[ktlx]

Originally posted by tumbleweed
The speed advantage of - over + is going to be going away _very_ soon with the next generation of drives, as well, so that's a non-issue.

According to HP, the speed advantage is already gone. Their DVD300i drive claims to be 4X.

[StealthRider]

it's true-i have a NEC ND-1100A DVD+RW in my Dell and it (claims to) burn at 4x. If anyone could fing the specs for that drive, that'd be great, 'cause it also claims to burn DVD-R/RW

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by bikertwin
The "+" camp has a number of advantages:

* As someone else mentioned, Mt. Ranier support

* Erasing speed: Erasing a DVD-RW takes minutes while a DVD+RW takes seconds

* Writing Speed: The + camp has always been ahead of the - camp. When DVD+RW came out in Oct 2001, it was writing at 2.4x while DVD-RW was writing at 1x. DVD-RW only recently got boosted to 2x. DVD+R started at 2.4x, and both -R and +R are now at 4x. Oh, and + drives write CD-R and CD-RW faster than - drives.

* Reliability: Even though you can write to DVD-R at speeds greater than 1x, for *serious* applications it is recommended that you only write at 1x because of all the write errors/corrections at 2x and higher. Check out the DVD Studio Pro forum on Apple's Discussions page for evidence of this. There is *no problem* writing to 2.4x or 4x on DVD+R or DVD+RW.

* Compatibility: One area that didn't quite live up to the + hype was compatibility. The + group promised much higher compatibility with DVD players before their products shipped. After they shipped and comparisons were done, +R was shown to be about as compatible as -R, and +RW was shown to be about as compatible as -RW, so no biggie here. However, Trai Forrester (a somewhat eccentric but very smart DVD expert) has recently stated that at "reasonable" data rates (6 Mbps or less), + is much more compatible than - ; it's only when you get to marginal data rates (near the max of 9.8 Mbps) that the compatibility of + goes down to near that of - .

But overall I was much happier with my PC's + writer than I am with my Mac's - writer. If Apple supported both + and - I would be much happier. And that way, you wouldn't have to worry who won the wars because your Mac could do both.

Mt. Rainer doesn't do much until we get OS's that support it. + does have built in error correction, but I haven't seen wide spread reports that faster than 1x burning causes problems for -R. Maybe it's a DVD SP + Superdrive centric problem? + and - have similar compatibility on players made in the past year 1-2 years but the older the player the less likely + will work on it.


Lethal

[norsman]

I received my new 17" 1ghz iMac last friday. Roxio reports it as the new Pioneer 05 drive.