jobs/careers

[howard]

was just curious about everybodys jobs. What is it that you guys do for a living?

i'm a student and i study music.

[eyelikeart]

Graphic Designer...Photographer...Producer...

I'm a production artist for a print company, do freelance design on the side, freelance photographer & co-founder of www.thefotohauscom, co-producing a new low-budget series targeted at the New Orleans market...

I should put in my title "Miracle Worker" at my job...heh

[MrMacMan]

I'm a student and uh I'm majoring in 'failing' ;)

[job]

i'm a high school student currently in all A.P. classes with a 4.0. I also run and swim on the varsity level.

I'll be lifeguarding this summer at 7.50 an hour (min 5~6 hours per day.) I will also be teaching a 2 hour swim class 3 times a week for small kids at 9.50 an hour.

Most of the money will go to restoring my old Beetle, but a select amount will go to a new tower and LCD. :D

[macktheknife]

I'm an economics and finance consultant in his mid-20's with a typical yuppie lifestyle (minus the BMW and the designer clothes). I had majored in History and minored in Asian Studies in college, but I'm now studying to become a Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) and maybe earn a MBA in the future.

I'm not a "techie" by any stretch of the imagination, but I am interested in computers and programming. I also recently became a Sun Certified Java Programmer (SCJP) after my friend practically dared me to take the test. I plan to continue my foray into programming by becoming a Sun Certified Web Components Developer (SCWCD) in the very near future.

BTW, I'm also a recent switcher who returned back to the Mac camp after abandoning it for six years after high school. :D

[jefhatfield]

i have a gardening landscaping business (since '89) and a pc computer repair business (since '99) and i have been taking college or grad school classes since 1980...but mostly for fun these days in computer or art related fields

when i retire, i want to teach people computers for the sheer joy of watching people improve their lives with technology...and it doesn't have to be mac, either (but that would be the preferred platform):p

[kylos]

Cs major, interior trim carpenter when not in school (waiting for that job with apple :D :) ).

[scem0]

I am a student, and I eat ramen noodles... a lot of ramen noodles.

Oh, and I like computers.

I plan to go into semiconductor manufacturing.

[vniow]

Ah yes....that job I can't seem to get.....

[howard]

Originally posted by scem0
I am a student, and I eat ramen noodles... a lot of ramen noodles.
.

you'll do very well in your college years scem0 :)

[rainman::|:|]

i'm a 'production project manager of corporate communications" at an insurance administration company. lots of fun... it was a temp to hire bit, and even tho their budget is frozen they're thinking of taking me on perm. which would mean a BIG raise and some new Apple equipment :)

pnw

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
i'm a 'production project manager of corporate communications" at an insurance administration company. lots of fun... it was a temp to hire bit, and even tho their budget is frozen they're thinking of taking me on perm. which would mean a BIG raise and some new Apple equipment :)

pnw

congrats...remember to live within your means

yeah right, huh;)

[MacAztec]

Im a freshman in highschool.

I work Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, and sometimes on weekends as an Umpire for baseball games. Its cool. I get 30$ a game. Sometimes there are double headers. If I do it on a weekend, for a tournament, I get 30$ an hour. I make about 120-150 dollars on Tournament weekends.

New job, its pretty good pay too for me.

[lmalave]

Computer programmer.

I'm part of the new Apple core constituency that switched to Mac because of OS X. A Unix that runs Microsoft Office, Intuit Quicken, etc. and works great with peripherals. Gotta love it.

Working on my MBA part-time now though. Kids, if you're wondering what career to get into I don't recommend software engineering, especially working as a computer consultant. All the work is getting outsourced to India. Just as blue-collar jobs moved overseas in the 70's and 80's, now we're seeing white collar jobs like computer programming being outsourced. It's simple economics: India has a huge surplus of people with advance computer and engineering degrees and good English skills, and they're willing to work for $20K (and that's about the most they'd get, if they have a PHD and have a senior position).

For someone like me that's more established the outsourcing won't affect me as much, but for a kid coming out of school it's going to be brutal.

[lmalave]

Originally posted by scem0
I am a student, and I eat ramen noodles... a lot of ramen noodles.

Oh, and I like computers.

I plan to go into semiconductor manufacturing.

Dude, what's a twankie?

[Moxiemike]

I'm currently a guinea pig for sleeping disorder testing. But when i'm awake, i pretend to be creative director of my lil' freelance company.

It's a lot of work, and probably the reason i have problems with the sleepiness. but hell.

i also help eye with thefotohaus.com so i guess you could say i'm a photographer. but i'd hesitate to call myself that.

i really sometimes think i should go back to academia and become a psychologist like i originally planned....

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by lmalave
Computer programmer.

I'm part of the new Apple core constituency that switched to Mac because of OS X. A Unix that runs Microsoft Office, Intuit Quicken, etc. and works great with peripherals. Gotta love it.

Working on my MBA part-time now though. Kids, if you're wondering what career to get into I don't recommend software engineering, especially working as a computer consultant. All the work is getting outsourced to India. Just as blue-collar jobs moved overseas in the 70's and 80's, now we're seeing white collar jobs like computer programming being outsourced. It's simple economics: India has a huge surplus of people with advance computer and engineering degrees and good English skills, and they're willing to work for $20K (and that's about the most they'd get, if they have a PHD and have a senior position).

For someone like me that's more established the outsourcing won't affect me as much, but for a kid coming out of school it's going to be brutal.

a lot of fields in the white collar field in medicine, business (especially consulting/accounting), and almost any white collar job you can think of can and will be outsourced

thanks to our friend the internet

high tech is looking worse and worse by the day but the field will eventually jump out of its slump...the most optomistic predictions are for a turn around after three years...i hope so

i am amazed at how much computer talent there is in china, india, and russia

it took some time for some of the poorer countries to catch up but while some of america's best and brightest computer geeks were obsessed with the latest and coolest computer game...some third work computer geek could not afford a game, but there was always coding to pass the time away

and in the computer hardware field, a lot of jobs were lost from america years ago

[peterjhill]

Network Engineer for Carnegie Mellon University. I keep everyone connected to the Internet, except for the ones who get caught being bad. I get to smack their connection down. Currently I am working with a small group redesigning their entire network of routers and switches.

[iGav]

art direction
compositing
design
dv
interactive
lecturing
lover
motion graphics
post production
print

;) :)

[Cursor]

I'm an Art Director. But i am seriously thinking about switching fields, and becoming a cop.

[WinterMute]

Senior lecturer is Music/audio technology, recording engineer and producer for 15 years before that, Mac fanatic and Aikido black-belt (yes, that's a vocation):D

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by Moxiemike

i also help eye with thefotohaus.com so i guess you could say i'm a photographer. but i'd hesitate to call myself that.

i really sometimes think i should go back to academia and become a psychologist like i originally planned....

no way!!!! :eek:

psychology would be...so...

how many psychologists have a use for a DSLR?!?! :D

[bbarnhart]

I am a computer programmer on the Windows platform and I'm also worried about my job going overseas. The large company that I work for is consolidating its many development centers into a few and luckily, where I'm at is one area where the development centers are being consolidated. But, other development centers are being redirected overseas because of it's cheaper.

I don't know what I'll do if they decide to close my shop in a few years. Maybe I'll try welfare.

[Chad4Mac]

I'm a private broker, researching and managing all types of stocks for a investment company. In addition to NYSE, I also hunt down real estate. I also manage the Extreme Sport line of a large glove manufacturer.

I don't have formal training with fixing computers, but I make sure the company's hardware is running perfectly, server and all. To say the least, I spend a lot of time with tech support. In the past two months I have bought (for the company) two 17in iMacs, 5 2.4 Dell systems, 3 HP all-in-one's, and the most insane 4 19in screen monitor set-up from 9X Media (http://www.9xmedia.com).

My boss will have the best trading system

Chad4Mac

[Mr. Anderson]

I do a bit of everything, design, photography, illustration, web. The design and illustration is mostly 3D and once in a while I do some animation, not enough though.

D

[iGav]

Originally posted by WinterMute
Senior lecturer is Music/audio technology, recording engineer and producer for 15 years before that, Mac fanatic and Aikido black-belt (yes, that's a vocation):D

I'd love to learn Aikido....

[evoluzione]

me too.... that's the one with the wicked suit and helmet right? (i apologise for my ignorance)


well, i'm basically freelancing right now, fixing, upgrading and installing macs and everything that goes with that. working mainly in the video, photography and retouching/pre-press industry as that's what i've learnt over the last 8 or 9 years or so.

i'm also starting to import minis into nyc. :D
the looks ya get when flying around the city in a tiny li'l car that can outpace and outhandle most things around... priceless :p :D ;)

[scem0]

Originally posted by iGAV
I'd love to learn Aikido....

no, Aikido is no fun. Take kung fu, or if you really want a hard
leg workout, then take wushu, which involves lots of jumping.

I take both Kung Fu and Wushu, and having done many sports
required jumping, flipping, and gymnastics, I am a natural at
wushu, but any martial art requires patience, and perseverance.

Kung Fu is more beautiful than Aikido, and although it takes years
and years to be able to use it to fight, it benifits just about
everything else you do.

If you really like music, and dancing for that matter, take capoeira,
which is a fighting style that is just as much dance as it is fighting.
I took a couple of classes of this, and since it also (can - depending
on which style of capoeira you take) involves a lot of jumping, I
excelled in it. But I didn't like the fact that I barely learned any
self defense, so I started up wushu (and kung fu, which I had
already been taking). THe music is a HUGE part of capoeira, so if
you are annoyed by capoeira music, then you shouldn't take
capoeira.

Oh, and capoeira is a game, not a fighting style. You don't 'fight'
in capoeira, you 'play'. I thought that was interesting.

Sorry to go off on this martial arts rant, but I love martial arts, and
I think they are one of the most healthy things you can do for
yourself. They exercise everything about you, physically, mentally,
and even spiritually.

http://www.capoeira.super-net.pl/gal23/Clip0007.jpg

^^^ Advanced capoeira is AMAZING to watch. Find a video if you can ^^^.

[howard]

thanks for the run-down of different martial arts, i've always been interested in them but never justified spending the money to take lessons...maybe someday...

i have heard of capoeira. thats the fighting style they use in that movie only the strong (which really isn't that great of a movie) but yes it is very interesting to watch. i also saw someone once at a rest stop somewhere off a highway who was practicing capoeira. it was neat to see it in person.

[scem0]

It resembles breakdancing more than anything.

wushu videos (http://www.beijingwushuteam.com/video.html)

Capoeira movies (http://www.princeton.edu/~capoeira/md_mov.html)

[WinterMute]

I've posted a new Martial arts thread, plus a reply to scem0's original post, see you over there.:D

[SPG]

I believe "the one with the wicked suit and helmet" is Kendo. Bamboo sword that you hit your oppoenent with for points is the other part.
Back on topic...

I'm a media whore. Advanced DVD authoring, video/film editing, cinematography. Used to do a bunch of segment producing for some TV shows, but not anymore.

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by iGAV
I'd love to learn Aikido....

Then go and do it:)

Seriously, it's the single best decision I've made in the past few years, it's loads of fun and can be immensly effective.

Dave Rubens club in Kilburn is particularly highly regarded, although I don't get there much, I train in a tomiki club in SE London.

5th world championships are in Leeds this summer...

[scem0]

well, I recommend going out and previewing different martial
arts classes. Some let you participate when you preview, others
are 'watch only'. Be sure to look at all the styles you are
interested in. I really envy you if there is a monkey kung fu
studio where you live. I REALLY want to take monkey kung fu,
but nobody teaches it in Austin :o :rolleyes: ;).

[evoluzione]

Originally posted by SPG
I believe "the one with the wicked suit and helmet" is Kendo. Bamboo sword that you hit your oppoenent with for points is the other part.
Back on topic...


oh yeah, i believe you're right :) thanks for that. hmm, what's Aikido then? (it's not a dog right? ;) )

anyways, enough of this tangent....


SPG = Special Patrol Group?????

[SPG]

Originally posted by evoluzione

SPG = Special Patrol Group?????

Heck no. SPG=SuPerGenius :D

[Les Kern]

Professional Zeppelin Repair Consultant and part-time Bandwidth Waster.

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by evoluzione
oh yeah, i believe you're right :) thanks for that. hmm, what's Aikido then? (it's not a dog right? ;) )

anyways, enough of this tangent....


SPG = Special Patrol Group?????

Aikido is an MA that uses balance breaking, avoidance, joint locks and throws to inflict as much pain and misery on the human form as possible...:D

The dog is an atika as you well know;)

SPG lol, there's someone who spent too much time in Brixton:D

[SPG]

Originally posted by WinterMute

The dog is an atika as you well know;)

SPG lol, there's someone who spent too much time in Brixton:D

I know who the SPG are in the UK, and I don't like 'em, I'm pissed that they stole my name!

BTW, I think you meant Akita.

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by SPG
I know who the SPG are in the UK, and I don't like 'em, I'm pissed that they stole my name!

BTW, I think you meant Akita.

Yeah, my typo, sorry.

Crufts on the telly at the weekend as well:)

[evoluzione]

Originally posted by WinterMute
SPG lol, there's someone who spent too much time in Brixton:D

actually i was referring to the young ones, vyvians (sp?) pet thing was called spg. but yeah, gotta love brixton.

so good draw for the 'pool, diouf had a blinder. just watched the game at a celtic pub, rousing rendition of "you'll never walk alone".

allez les rouge!

[WinterMute]

Oh yeah, hamster wasn't it?

Diouf is getting better, but for £10 million he wants to get a lot better a lot quicker.

Good result given the first minute.

I'll mail the Cup goals over tomorrow, got a T3 line at work:D

I'm going up to Anfield for the Charlton game in April, not been for a while, bound to lose my voice:D

[agreenster]

Im a 3D animator for a small studio producing an animated children's show. Not until our premiere can I really talk about it

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by agreenster
Im a 3D animator for a small studio producing an animated children's show. Not until our premiere can I really talk about it

tease.....

you've done other things too, right? and where is that pirate animation that you promised us, what, um, last year? ;)

D

[agreenster]

Never got uploaded--too busy. Besides, compared to my work now, I wouldnt want to show it off....

I also used to do Flash Web design, for about two years at Trenton Design Group. www.trentonbranding.com Now I just do freelance to make extra money

[macktheknife]

Originally posted by lmalave
Working on my MBA part-time now though. Kids, if you're wondering what career to get into I don't recommend software engineering, especially working as a computer consultant. All the work is getting outsourced to India. Just as blue-collar jobs moved overseas in the 70's and 80's, now we're seeing white collar jobs like computer programming being outsourced. It's simple economics: India has a huge surplus of people with advance computer and engineering degrees and good English skills, and they're willing to work for $20K (and that's about the most they'd get, if they have a PHD and have a senior position).

Yeah, unfortunately, this is a trend that's only going to continue. With other countries quickly developing and investing heavily in human capital (i.e. education, skills, etc.), the U.S. will face a more competitive environment going forward. Hopefully, the U.S. can do more to improve its competitive position, but as someone who has recently survived high school (graduated more than 6 years ago), I'm not too optimistic about the batch of kids coming out of our educational system. :(

[mymemory]

I'm a VJ for large corporate events. I'm looking to do visual for big artists like Depeche Mode.

I create sets, work with light, shadow, create atmospheres plus the visual aspect.

I'm free to work in the US, I'm worth every penny:cool:

[lmalave]

Originally posted by macktheknife
Yeah, unfortunately, this is a trend that's only going to continue. With other countries quickly developing and investing heavily in human capital (i.e. education, skills, etc.), the U.S. will face a more competitive environment going forward. Hopefully, the U.S. can do more to improve its competitive position, but as someone who has recently survived high school (graduated more than 6 years ago), I'm not too optimistic about the batch of kids coming out of our educational system. :(

I'm all for investing a lot more in education but I don't think it's the root problem. Despite all the naysayers the U.S. has the best educated, most productive workforce in the world. We are, much more so than any country, a nation of workaholics and high achievers.

It's just an issue of what economists call comparative advantage. With free trade, jobs in an industry will move to whatever country can best produce those goods in terms of price/performance. And in the past decade India moved miles ahead of anyone else in being able to produce quality software cheaply.

There are always new frontiers, though. The U.S. is waaaaaay ahead of everyone else in biotech, nanotechnology, etc. Even in the computer industry IBM is still cranking out innovations that are years ahead of anyone else. The U.S. still cranks out the finest scientific and engineering minds in the world. We can go mano-a-mano with Japan, Germany, or anyone.

[mymemory]

Originally posted by lmalave
I'm all for investing a lot more in education but I don't think it's the root problem. Despite all the naysayers the U.S. has the best educated, most productive workforce in the world. We are, much more so than any country, a nation of workaholics and high achievers.

It's just an issue of what economists call comparative advantage. With free trade, jobs in an industry will move to whatever country can best produce those goods in terms of price/performance. And in the past decade India moved miles ahead of anyone else in being able to produce quality software cheaply.

There are always new frontiers, though. The U.S. is waaaaaay ahead of everyone else in biotech, nanotechnology, etc. Even in the computer industry IBM is still cranking out innovations that are years ahead of anyone else. The U.S. still cranks out the finest scientific and engineering minds in the world. We can go mano-a-mano with Japan, Germany, or anyone.

You are talking so much *********!!!!!

I can tell you each one of my friends who are working in Silicon Graphics , MTV, and lots of places. There are not people that "I heard of", there are people that I'm exchanging e-mails every dayand I know for the last 10 years may be.

When I graduate from my multimedia school in Orlando FL there were classmates that were working as bank cashiers a year later while I was back here in Venezuela doing what you just saw in the picture.

Do not come here to show your ignorance and your lack of experience that no every one are from highschool and some of us have been living in the US and in some other countries for a few years.

Let me tell you that your goverment is filtering tons of things that are happening outside your frontiers, that is why you will never are gonna see good foreing movies, good foreing music because everything from the outside is "an invation".

So shut your mouth because the world doesn't depend of the United States. I know tons of histories of the US goverment stilling technology and brains from other countries.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by lmalave


The U.S. is waaaaaay ahead of everyone else in biotech, nanotechnology, etc. Even in the computer industry IBM is still cranking out innovations that are years ahead of anyone else. The U.S. still cranks out the finest scientific and engineering minds in the world. We can go mano-a-mano with Japan, Germany, or anyone.

usually i agree with you on threads but on this one, i have to totally disagree...he he

i live just south of san jose, arguably the best high tech center in the world...silicon valley and all?...wrong! look to japan or just ask anyone who works in the valley

i went to a very international graduate school with strong ties to technology and biotech and some of the best talent in these areas are not from the usa

as an undergraduate, i spent some time studying in england, university of london, and their high end brain trust is way beyond ours...our educational institutions are based on the model of oxford and cambridge

the us was the undisputed leader of the world educationally in the years after world war II and now among industrialized nations, our kids pale in comparison in the math and science skills to children of (many) other nations

[jefhatfield]

without a strong base, which are our children, then our whole educational system beyond 12th grade will fall

the college system is like a house, very tall and impressive from afar, but it is built on the kids and their prior education (K-12)

we have to invest monetarily early on and if the money is in short supply and we have to make a choice, for america, put it in the K-12 areas

http://edreform.com/update/2001/010828.html has some interesting facts, too

ps - i may not agree with everything this site says about how to reform, but something has to be done about our government failing our kids...otherwise, our colleges will be seeded with improperly trained children

ok, i will get off the soapbox now:p

[SPG]

Just to chime in on the technology and education thing...
How is the US going to stay at the forefront of biotech when we outlaw the research that is pushing the advance to new discoveries? I'm talking of course about the religious influences that have sought, and now achieved, a ban on cloning and stem cell research.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by SPG
Just to chime in on the technology and education thing...
How is the US going to stay at the forefront of biotech when we outlaw the research that is pushing the advance to new discoveries? I'm talking of course about the religious influences that have sought, and now achieved, a ban on cloning and stem cell research.

good point

the religious people of the past persecuted a man named galileo who proved the earth was not flat

and the definition of politics and religion are being blurred more and more everyday and taking us into a really ignorant place:mad:

we are inching towards a taliban fundamentalist type of belief here in the usa when we have people like reverend phelps gaining more and more believers and having had gop candidates like pat buchannan suggesting massive public executions...not unlike the taliban

some of the more right wing christian fliers out there suggest that minorities are the seed of the serpent and eve and that the true israel are the anglo race (based from early racist beliefs in england from the anglo-israeli philosophy)

the whole sections of the bible that ask for us to take care of our weak and poor have been tossed out in favor of a tax cut that helps the top 1% percent of income earners...and that is supposed to represent christianity?

it's ok to teach creationism in schools but to adhere to a past pope's belief that the earth is just a few thousand years old (which was before marco polo discovered an older culture) might have worked for the medieval european way of life then

but science has proved otherwise

i don't think real christianity wants to hinder medicine or biotech, it's just the fanatic religious zealots, peppered with all their racism and hate, that want to keep everybody ignorant...all the more easy to control

[lmalave]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
usually i agree with you on threads but on this one, i have to totally disagree...he he
i live just south of san jose, arguably the best high tech center in the world...silicon valley and all?...wrong! look to japan or just ask anyone who works in the valley


Silicon Valley is still the U.S. center for computer technology, but Massachusetts is actually the center for Biotech. I think you underestimate our competitive positioning in bleeding-edge technology.


i went to a very international graduate school with strong ties to technology and biotech and some of the best talent in these areas are not from the usa
as an undergraduate, i spent some time studying in england, university of london, and their high end brain trust is way beyond ours...our educational institutions are based on the model of oxford and cambridge


Hehe, we have nothing to worry about here, believe me. I went to MIT undergrad and I can tell you that it is not based on the Oxford/Cambridge model. It would not be an overstatement to say that during the 20th century MIT became the world model for scientific and engineering research. It's worthwhile noting that when MIT was already establishing itself as a powerhouse 100 years ago, schools like Oxford and Cambridge were still placing most of their emphasis on Latin, Greek, and Theology.

But anyway, back on topic: "their high end brain trust is way beyond ours". Huh? What? Ok, admittedly I'm biased, but I think MIT, Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, CalTech, University of Chicago, etc. (need I go on?) stack up pretty darn well against anyone: Oxford, Cambridge, Sorbonne, London School of Economics, etc. I mean, just look at the international awards like the Nobel Prize that U.S.-based researchers win very disproportionately.


the us was the undisputed leader of the world educationally in the years after world war II and now among industrialized nations, our kids pale in comparison in the math and science skills to children of (many) other nations
Well, this is basically because the U.S. is abandoning its egalitarian values that served it so well during the middle part of the 20th century. Part of this has been abandoning a commitment to strong public education. On the flipside, though, our universities keep getting better and better, especially the top universities. And the keep in mind the top U.S. universities are magnets for the world's top minds, and many of those students choose to stay in the U.S. to make their fortunes.

[macktheknife]

I think the United States does have a world-class post-secondary educational system and is the leader in technology. Nonetheless, the gap between the U.S. and other countries is hardly insurmountable. China and India have made rapid strides in the past decade and are poised for further growth. China in particular has climbed the value ladder rapidly in the past 10 years that it's attracting many high-tech manufacturing and research. The U.S. can't have a world-class post-secondary education system if the kids it accepts are ill-educated.

Here are some links to people to read:

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/articles/0,15114,367922,00.html
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/technology/articles/0,15114,420024,00.html
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/articles/0,15114,408670,00.html

[lmalave]

Originally posted by mymemory
You are talking so much *********!!!!!

I can tell you each one of my friends who are working in Silicon Graphics , MTV, and lots of places. There are not people that "I heard of", there are people that I'm exchanging e-mails every dayand I know for the last 10 years may be.

When I graduate from my multimedia school in Orlando FL there were classmates that were working as bank cashiers a year later while I was back here in Venezuela doing what you just saw in the picture.

Do not come here to show your ignorance and your lack of experience that no every one are from highschool and some of us have been living in the US and in some other countries for a few years.

Let me tell you that your goverment is filtering tons of things that are happening outside your frontiers, that is why you will never are gonna see good foreing movies, good foreing music because everything from the outside is "an invation".

So shut your mouth because the world doesn't depend of the United States. I know tons of histories of the US goverment stilling technology and brains from other countries.

Bull, eh? Perhaps you'd like to take up this issue with the World Economic Forum (an organization founded and based in Europe, by the way):

http://www.weforum.org/site/homepublic.nsf/Content/USA+Reclaims+Top+Ranking+in+Global+Competitiveness+Report+2002-2003


And I was trying to find a worldwide ranking of research universities, but the only worldwide ranking I could find was for MBA universities in London's Financial Times:

http://specials.ft.com/spdocs/FT3543AD2BD.pdf

The U.S. has 8 of the top 10 and 16 of the top 20 graduate MBA programs, and I think you'd see similar results in the rankings of just about any undergraduate or graduate program.

Hey, as someone born in a U.S. colony I understand your visceral reaction to U.S. hegemony and arrogance. But just because the U.S. is arrogant doesn't change the reality that its dominace is based on real economic dominance. And yes, even on scientific and academic dominance.

[lmalave]

Originally posted by macktheknife
I think the United States does have a world-class post-secondary educational system and is the leader in technology. Nonetheless, the gap between the U.S. and other countries is hardly insurmountable. China and India have made rapid strides in the past decade and are poised for further growth. China in particular has climbed the value ladder rapidly in the past 10 years that it's attracting many high-tech manufacturing and research. The U.S. can't have a world-class post-secondary education system if the kids it accepts are ill-educated.

Here are some links to people to read:

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/articles/0,15114,367922,00.html
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/technology/articles/0,15114,420024,00.html
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/articles/0,15114,408670,00.html

This is not a zero-sum game, folks. I read in Fortune above about China becoming the world's workshop and I think that's just great. This will lead to cheaper goods which will increase our standard of living.

I mean, look, the U.S. lost its dominance in automobiles, memory chips, steel, etc. to Japan and Taiwan. Did the U.S. go down the tubes? Hardly! We're still on top economically and can afford to buy excellent automobiles and electronic goods from Japan.

I mean, I'm in a job that's getting outsourced to India, and I accept that it just makes sense economically for the U.S.. For example, I work for a large investment bank, and outsourcing to India means lower technology costs and therefore higher profits for my company.

As for our secondary school system, you have to come to the realization that this is to a large degree a class issue. I would say the top 20% or so of schools are still just as good as they've ever been. The difference is that society is in general more stratified than it was 25 or 50 years ago, and conservatives are less willing to invest in top-notch public education as something intrinsically valuable even to themselves even if their children are not attending. I'm not sure who to blame for this. Maybe Ayn Rand?

And as for your statement "The U.S. can't have a world-class post-secondary education system if the kids it accepts are ill-educated". Believe me, the students that the top schools are accepting are not ill-educated. Have you read the latest statistics on what the average student going to Harvard, MIT, or Stanford looks like? It's just sick. I would say the top schools are even more competitive than they were 13 years ago when I applied.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by lmalave
This is not a zero-sum game, folks. I read in Fortune above about China becoming the world's workshop and I think that's just great. This will lead to cheaper goods which will increase our standard of living.

I mean, look, the U.S. lost its dominance in automobiles, memory chips, steel, etc. to Japan and Taiwan. Did the U.S. go down the tubes? Hardly! We're still on top economically and can afford to buy excellent automobiles and electronic goods from Japan.

I mean, I'm in a job that's getting outsourced to India, and I accept that it just makes sense economically for the U.S.. For example, I work for a large investment bank, and outsourcing to India means lower technology costs and therefore higher profits for my company.

As for our secondary school system, you have to come to the realization that this is to a large degree a class issue. I would say the top 20% or so of schools are still just as good as they've ever been. The difference is that society is in general more stratified than it was 25 or 50 years ago, and conservatives are less willing to invest in top-notch public education as something intrinsically valuable even to themselves even if their children are not attending. I'm not sure who to blame for this. Maybe Ayn Rand?

And as for your statement "The U.S. can't have a world-class post-secondary education system if the kids it accepts are ill-educated". Believe me, the students that the top schools are accepting are not ill-educated. Have you read the latest statistics on what the average student going to Harvard, MIT, or Stanford looks like? It's just sick. I would say the top schools are even more competitive than they were 13 years ago when I applied.

1) have you ever been to japan?

2) have you ever been to oxford/cambridge/university of london and compared it against stanford, cal, etc?

3) and did you read my link...he he...not my stats but official stats...we are in grade inflation times!!!

prior generations focused on reading, writing, and arithmetic and fared better for focusing on the basics...today, that is not the case

also the SAT was changed to make a person score higher...do a search and check it out

some conservatives want the general public to believe we are the smartest nation (or nearly so) and that the schools are ok so they don't have put that much more money into it

even in california, democratic governor gray davis is pushing across huge cuts in education and we are facing, in california, and somewhat less in the rest of the nation, an educational recession

i feel so strongly about how badly the decline in education has affected the minds of the young people, that when i retire, i want to teach computer science in college and/or secondary school

on my free time, i teach an adult class on networking...for free

[jefhatfield]

imalve,

i will admit as a math head, engineer, and general techie...i am upset about america's math and science skills declining against the rest of the world...especially in k-12...our nation's educational foundation

but reading, writing, music, and artistic skills among our youth are still very much at the cutting edge in the world...so it is not everywhere where america is slipping (i give you that)

but something has really happened to our math skills and science skills and in my state, there is a huge shortage in math and science teachers and even without requiring a credential and with generous pay, california cannot find the math and science teachers to teach the next generation of math and science professionals/teachers

it is a vicious cycle and it will pay off badly in the long run

whether you are a democrat or republican or other, urge your local polliticians to care about education in america

[jefhatfield]

third post...but i am so mad about this topic

in the local college where i live, they are just considering teaching computers as it relates to microsoft...it dawned on them that ms has something to do with the industry

school administrators at the other local college thought it might be cute to make all computer science students learn how to draw nude people and make that a requirement over networking technology, for instance

so the school has plenty of nude models but no routers, switches, or hubs...and when you graduate, you are a network/computer engineer

nothing wrong with nudity, otherwise i wouldn't be able to bathe

and the dean says, "oh, we don't do engineering"

what???

[lmalave]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
imalve,

i will admit as a math head, engineer, and general techie...i am upset about america's math and science skills declining against the rest of the world...especially in k-12...our nation's educational foundation

but reading, writing, music, and artistic skills among our youth are still very much at the cutting edge in the world...so it is not everywhere where america is slipping (i give you that)

but something has really happened to our math skills and science skills and in my state, there is a huge shortage in math and science teachers and even without requiring a credential and with generous pay, california cannot find the math and science teachers to teach the next generation of math and science professionals/teachers

it is a vicious cycle and it will pay off badly in the long run

whether you are a democrat or republican or other, urge your local polliticians to care about education in america

Unfortunately, I think it's going to get worse before it gets better. The overall trend is toward more stratification in society and things like school voucher programs will only accelerate it. Unfortunately, the egalitarianism that led the U.S. to build the world's best public education system, implement the G.I. bill, etc. is now just a fading memory. Maybe if there is a rapid and shocking statistical decline people will wake up, but I'm pessimistic :(

[beatle888]

Originally posted by mymemory

So shut your mouth because the world doesn't depend of the United States.


oh boy :rolleyes:

[lmalave]

Originally posted by jefhatfield

1) have you ever been to japan?

Ok, no, but do you really think Japan sends its best and brightest to its local universities? The best and brightest study in the top U.S. engineering programs. MIT undergrad was something like 14% international, and the school I'm attending now, Stern, is a whopping 30% international, I kid you not. So I've certainly had an opportunity to meet the best and brightest the world has to offer, including powerhouses like Japan, China, Russia, etc. I didn't really see a difference in ability or work ethic (a common stereotype) between the international students and the american elite students. The only students that I saw clearly distinguishing themselves from the pack were Hong Kong students. Wow they were smart! Just from anectodal evidence I would have to guess that Hong Kong must have an absolutely amazing education system.


2) have you ever been to oxford/cambridge/university of london and compared it against stanford, cal, etc?

Ok, granted, Oxford and Cambridge are two of the only schools that compare with the elite U.S. schools, so I can't really say that I've had a first hand look at the U.K.'s finest. But you could do more objective studies of a university's prestige and influence: for example, the number of times research from the university is cited by their peers worldwide. And if I'm not mistaken I read that Harvard is first followed by MIT. MIT Professor of Linguistics Noam Chomsky alone is the most cited source in the world after the Bible and the collective works of Shakespeare!!!

3) and did you read my link...he he...not my stats but official stats...we are in grade inflation times!!!

prior generations focused on reading, writing, and arithmetic and fared better for focusing on the basics...today, that is not the case

also the SAT was changed to make a person score higher...do a search and check it out

Yeah, there's definitely grade inflation in general. My theory is that the root of this is that high schools and undergraduate programs want their students to look good on paper when they apply to college or grad school. This is a totally stupid philosophy, though - a school is never going to admit someone on GPA alone - that's why class ranking and test scores are used to compare students from different schools.

As for SAT scores, keep in mind that a much higher percentage of the population takes the SAT now than they did in 1967, so naturally average and median scores would trend lower. That being said, it's clear that language skills especially are declining in the U.S. I'm not sure about math, though. I'm not convinced that math and science are in absolute decline, but clearly our relative performance compared to the rest of the world has declined, so we better get our act in gear.


some conservatives want the general public to believe we are the smartest nation (or nearly so) and that the schools are ok so they don't have put that much more money into it

even in california, democratic governor gray davis is pushing across huge cuts in education and we are facing, in california, and somewhat less in the rest of the nation, an educational recession


Yup, this is truly a sad state of affairs. But keep in mind that folks that want to cut funding for schools and promote voucher programs or whatever are doing so because their kids are certainly doing ok. Think about it. Would a politician advocate cutting funding for schools if they saw their kid's school in decline? Of course not! That's why I still maintain that this is at its core a class issue. But like I said, I don't see this problem getting better before it gets worse. Unfortunately, at this point it looks like it would take a seismic cultural and political shift to make education a priority again :(

[mmoin]

at Amherst College majoring in econ but also studying cs and arabic (4 semesters now). I hope to either go to law school or find a job in finance or gov't.

[Roger1]

I'm an information systems support technician for a school district. I've been doing this for a few years now.

The pay isn't great, but I enjoy what I do. :)

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by lmalave


Yup, this is truly a sad state of affairs. But keep in mind that folks that want to cut funding for schools and promote voucher programs or whatever are doing so because their kids are certainly doing ok. Think about it. Would a politician advocate cutting funding for schools if they saw their kid's school in decline? Of course not! That's why I still maintain that this is at its core a class issue. But like I said, I don't see this problem getting better before it gets worse. Unfortunately, at this point it looks like it would take a seismic cultural and political shift to make education a priority again :(

i think most of the politicians have kids already out of the k-12 system so they don't really factor into the equation

i think a lot of the best and brightest of the world go to american schools because of the name brand prestige from a reputation of a golden age which has passed in american higher education

this evening, i worked on a former engineer's mac network and talked about the subject we are at in these forums

besides his graduate education at stanford and his 50 years in the field of teaching, he has seen a steady decline in education with the worst yet to come

"American ingeniuty? Who do you think sent us to the moon, then?"

I replied, "German scientists."

"Exactly. A lot of the great minds here in America did not come from here or have their training here."

the usa is a great country, but we can't simply extrapolate and say that because of that, we have the best educational system, or that it has not declined over the years

and if someone stretches and says that since we are so good in education, then we could cut back on education and spend more on, let's say defense, then their logic has gone out the window...i fear the gop wants to make further cuts in education and spend the money on their pet projects of tax returns for the rich, government deregulation, and more unrestricted money for the defense department

[mmoin]

Well, I would definitely challenge any argument that US higher education is anything less than best in the world. Certainly, our primary/secondary educational system is in trouble, but there is a reason that the best students from around the world come here for college/university. We simply have an overwhelming majority of the top universities here- I'll concede that Cambridge, UTokyo, the Sorbonne, etc, are all great schools, but they're just on par with the Ivy league, etc.

In fact, many of the previous top foreign schools (Oxford and LSE, to be specific) have suffered precipitous declines in quality/prestige in recent years.

[lmalave]

Originally posted by jefhatfield

i think a lot of the best and brightest of the world go to american schools because of the name brand prestige from a reputation of a golden age which has passed in american higher education

I still think you don't give U.S. higher education enough credit. The golden age is for U.S. higher education is now. American universities have never been more dominant. I agree with the poster above that the prestige of many universities in the Old World is just not what it used to be. And Asia actually doesn't have any universities that really compare to those of the U.S. and Europe.


this evening, i worked on a former engineer's mac network and talked about the subject we are at in these forums

besides his graduate education at stanford and his 50 years in the field of teaching, he has seen a steady decline in education with the worst yet to come

"American ingeniuty? Who do you think sent us to the moon, then?"

I replied, "German scientists."

"Exactly. A lot of the great minds here in America did not come from here or have their training here."

the usa is a great country, but we can't simply extrapolate and say that because of that, we have the best educational system, or that it has not declined over the years

Well it's a cliche that old-timers always say that school was more rigorous in their day. I heard it all the time from professors at MIT and I'm hearing it now at Stern. But guess what? in the past 10 years the U.S. has seen real productivity gains equal to any in its history - even comparable to the manufacturing revolution of the 1920's. And who was behind these innovations? Mostly, it was U.S.- educated folks in their 20's and 30's. Yes, talented Indian and Chinese engineers have played a central role in companies like Intel for quite some time, but look at Intel, Microsoft, Apple, Dell, Oracle, Cisco, IBM, Sun, EMC, and you'll see that U.S. born and educated engineers that more than hold their own with their overseas-educated colleagues.

The main reason we are barely hanging in there is that our top high schools still rival any in the world. I've met plenty of people from Exeter, Andover, Choate, etc. as well as top public schools like Lexington and that one down in Virginia that gets about 40 National Merit semi-finalists every year. One of the smartest kids I met actually went to high school in your neck of the woods - Fremont High.

But the problem is that every year that goes by, modern enonomies need more and more of its people to be highly educated. In Edison's and Ford's day all you needed was a few talented engineers - everyone else was varying degrees of skilled and unskilled manual labor. Nowadays digital circuit design, software engineering, and biotech take legions of highly skilled engineers working together. Unless the U.S. gets its act together it's going to lose competitiveness, since the great majority of our high schools are now lagging behind those of other advanced economies. For now we're bridging the gap by importing overseas talent, but as India's and China's economies surge, more and more of their engineers are opting to stay home.

[jefhatfield]

imalave,

if your mit and nyu professors say that school, in general, was more rigorous in their day...think for a second that maybe they are saying the truth

we went over the changes in the sat, grade inflation, and educational budget cuts...so i don't think i can convice you of my point

sure we have more schools than japan, germany, france, or england...but we have a much larger population than any of those countries

HOWEVER,

as time goes on, people need more education and that is a point i can agree with you on

at the turn of the 20th century, having a high school diploma was a special honor

thirty years ago, you were in the top tenth percentile when you had a bachelor's degree

now, one has to have either be a graduate student, have a master's degree, have a professional MD-JD-PsyD-PharmD, or PhD to be in the top ten percent

nearly 25 percent of american populace now has a bachelor's degree or higher and along with holders of an associate's college degree, that makes one third of all americans with some kind of college degree

as an mba, i am sure you can look up those same facts in the statistical abstract of the usa

in our lifetime, maybe half of all americans will hold an associate's degree or higher

so basically, at some point...let's say in the next century sometime, a 4 year college education won't be considered higher education, but standard education for everyone...instead of k-12, it may be k-16

budget cuts, called on by conservatives will even further reduce the priority of education as commerce and the military take a front seat even more than they have now

...and then where will our college graduates be?

i think by then, because of the usa's focus on other issues besides education, america will lose the lead, or lose ground, in the field of education...for children and adults alike

but i am sure mit will still be around and still be one of the nation's elite schools...and your kid's kid will be a professor at mit or sloan telling that generation's crop of new mba students that they are not as smart as the ones in the old days

computers and other forms of technology will continue to do more of the "work" while students will have to do less

in my chosen field of network engineering, the earliest workers in the field usually had to possess an advanced degree in math

then later a BS in ee or el was the most common degree for a network engineer (early 1980s)

now, most network engineers are simply certified and many are not even that

it's kind of nice not having to work with tubes and having math co-processors eradicate the need for any type of entry level computer engineer to have to be a full on mathematician these days

[WinterMute]

I'm never certain that claims of "who's best" are worthy or useful, certainly anyone who has been to a Uni will tell you the course was only half of the attraction, the expansion of personality and exposure to other worldviews is at least as important.

I teach graduate and post-grad programs at a new London Uni (10 years old now), I've been senior lecturer for 2 years, and I see a change in the composition of the student body.

More mature students are enrolling, more students from non-standard educational backgrounds (i.e. a-levels, HND's etc. in the UK), and many more overseas students.

The general levels of competancy in number, language and cognitive thinking are lower now than I have ever seen them, the Uni has support structures for students who can't read or write coherently, and I'm not talking about foreign students here. I constantly hear an elitist undercurrent that usually starts "University education shouldn't be for everyone..." and am genuinly horrified by it.

Higher education isn't a right, it's true, but it should be achievable by dint of hard work. Gaining a degree is another matter, as long as academic standards are safegaurded in the face of change then unfit students will not be awarded.

I teach music and audio tech, in a school of music and media, and it is taking a long time for the management of that school to realise the sea-change in society affects them as much as anyone. Traditional subjects (music performance and composition for example) are being largely ignored by younger students in favour of the subjects more pertinant to the industry, MT, video, web technologies and digital arts are still booming here.

Whilst we aren't quite at the same operational level as Berkeley's MT dept, (although not far away at all), we are certainly at the forefront of the industry here and abroad.

The biggest change I see in academia is the grudging acceptance that industrial experience is as valid as academic qualification, and TVU now allowes under-qualified lecturers the chance to upgrade to post grad whilst teaching, if they have the skills we require in the area.

People start being who they eventually become at Uni, it's a lifetime's journey for many, but getting the habit of learning is more valuble than any degree certificate from anywhere.

I don't like the idea of "elite" establishments, but I recognise they will aways exist, if only because they put the fees up.

[bcsimac]

Currently, I don't have a paying job. I am a preacher in training. I used to work as a Mac salesman and technician, but I got laid off Valentine's Day. The mac sales and repair industry is a really tough one to survive in. I just can't wait to go overseas as a missionary. I am so tired of the secular workplace.