Behold! For We May Yet Be in the Season of His Coming! Praise God Almighty!

[Shrek]

I have been reading the Left Behind series lately as well as the Are We Living in the End Times? book by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins and have to come to some interesting conclusions about current events and end times prophecy:

War in Iraq? Hmmm. The rebuilding of Babylon? An even BIGGER HMMM. Sounds familiar. Sounds like something I've read about in prophecy.

In his book, Are We Living in the End Times?, Tim Lahaye points out that the Bible makes it very clear that Babylon will be destroyed twice and rebuilt twice and then destoyed once and for all during the Great Tribulation. Tim LaHaye also speculates (on page 142) that Saddam Hussein may very well be the forerunner of the Antichrist.

Long after the destruction of Babylon by the Roman Empire in A.D. 70, Saddam Hussein began rebuilding his own country in 1971. So Babylon has been destroyed and rebuilt once in history.

But as I speak Babylon is being destroyed yet again, by coalition forces in the Persian Gulf and must again be rebuilt. After that it can only be destroyed once more once and for all time. If that is true, then who must rebuild Babylon? I believe that it is the Antichrist himself! He will rebuild it to be the most technologically advanced, earthquake-proof, modern city in the world!

Who is the Antichrist? From Daniel 9:26-27 we learn that the Antichrist is of Roman decent and must come from one of the eastern Mediterranean countries. He may very well fulfill many, but not all, of the prophecies for "Messiah." But He is NOT the Messiah! For those who are Left Behind, I say to you, "Beware of the One who comes to power in the world after the Rapture. For He will rule the world through diplomacy, through a false peace. He will be killed by a sword and rise from the dead at the mid-point of the Tribulation. Do not trust Him for Satan will indwell in Him!"

The point is, we must be ready for the rapture to come anytime after Saddam Hussein's successor comes to power in Iraq. For in that position, his successor will be in the perfect place to become secretary-general of the U.N. and create a one-world government after the rapture. He will sign a treaty with Israel gauranteeing her saftey and allow the Muslim Dome of the Rock holy site to be moved so that the Jews can rebuild their temple there. Possibly sometime during the Tribulation Russia and her Arab allies may attack Israel, but Israel will be supernaturally protected.

Oh! We must be ready! If you haven't already accepted Christ as your savior, do it now before it is too late! And if you have already accepted Christ as your savior, perhaps you should do it again to be rest assured. For no one in their right mind will want to live through the terrible judgements of the 7-year Tribulation. If you want to be saved, say this little prayer:

Dear Heavenly Father, I confess that I have sinned against heaven and in your sight and need forgiveness. Thank you for sending your son Jesus to die on the cross for my sins, according to the scriptures, and I thank you for raising him from the dead. Today I ask Him to come into my heart to cleanse me from my sin and become my Lord and Savior. I give myself to you. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen.

Now go find a Church so that you can fellowhship with other Christians. And remember, "Go and sin no more!"

The rapture could occur only months from now, or even weeks. As it says in the Bible, no one knows the hour in which Christ will come and no one should guess the hour in which Christ will come. But we can guess the season. And I believe the season is this season! Here! Now! It may not be long before the believers are all in heaven! SO BE READY FOR THE LORD!!! :D :D :D

"He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come Lord Jesus! The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." --Revelation 22:20-21

[iJon]

wow thats pretty cool, i may talk to my bible group about this.

iJon

[mischief]

Originally posted by Shrek
I have been reading the Left Behind series lately as well as the Are We Living in the End Times? book by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins and have to come to some interesting conclusions about current events and end times prophecy:

War in Iraq? Hmmm. The rebuilding of Babylon? An even BIGGER HMMM. Sounds familiar. Sounds like something I've read about in prophecy.

In his book, Are We Living in the End Times?, Tim Lahaye points out that the Bible makes it very clear that Babylon will be destroyed twice and rebuilt twice and then destoyed once and for all during the Great Tribulation. Tim LaHaye also speculates (on page 142) that Saddam Hussein may very well be the forerunner of the Antichrist.

Long after the destruction of Babylon by the Roman Empire in A.D. 70, Saddam Hussein began rebuilding his own country in 1971. So Babylon has been destroyed and rebuilt once in history.

But as I speak Babylon is being destroyed yet again, by coalition forces in the Persian Gulf and must again be rebuilt. After that it can only be destroyed once more once and for all time. If that is true, then who must rebuild Babylon? I believe that it is the Antichrist himself! He will rebuild it to be the most technologically advanced, earthquake-proof, modern city in the world!

Who is the Antichrist? From Daniel 9:26-27 we learn that the Antichrist is of Roman decent and must come from one of the eastern Mediterranean countries.

The point is, we must be ready for the rapture to come anytime after Saddam Hussein's successor comes to power in Iraq. For in that position, his successor will be in the perfect place to become secretary-general of the U.N. and create a one-world government after the rapture.

Oh! We must be ready! If you haven't already accepted Christ as your savior, do it now before it is too late! And if you have already accepted Christ as your savior, perhaps you should do it again to be rest assured. For no one in their right mind will want to live through the terrible judgements of the 7-year Tribulation.

The rapture could occur only months from now, or even weeks. As it says in the Bible, no one knows the hour in which Christ will come and no one should guess the hour in which Christ will come. But we can guess the season. And I believe the season is this season! Here! Now! It may not be long before the believers are all in heaven! SO BE READY FOR THE LORD!!! :D :D :D

"He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come Lord Jesus! The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." --Revelation 22:20-21

Well..... You can quit blathering... I've been here for 25 or so years. They really buggered up the translations though so don't be looking for a verbatim Rapture. :rolleyes:

[alset]

You know, we can link just about anything to anything. I see no reason to worry about it. I even wrote a paper for a New Testament class (you see, I like to know exactly why I don't subscribe to religion) likening Steve Jobs to Jesus. I had all kinds of prophecy fulfilled by the man. It was tongue in cheek, but you wouldn't believe how easy it was.

I'm just saying, you know....

My instructor loved it, btw, and I got an A+.

Dan

[timbloom]

Originally posted by alset
You know, we can link just about anything to anything. I see no reason to worry about it. I even wrote a paper for a New Testament class (you see, I like to know exactly why I don't subscribe to religion) likening Steve Jobs to Jesus. I had all kinds of prophecy fulfilled by the man. It was tongue in cheek, but you wouldn't believe how easy it was.

I'm just saying, you know....

My instructor loved it, btw, and I got an A+.

Dan

HA! That is hillarious, you should post the paper, in it's own thread of course. I would love to see it!

[NavyIntel007]

Bagdad has been bombed numerous times in 30 years. Iran-Iraq war, Persian Gulf 1, Operation Dessert Fox, and Operation Iraqi Freedom. So apparently the devil has already come, the tribulations are already over and we should all be in hell? Nah, dude.

I like the linking of Frank Herberts Dune to Iraq better.

[Sun Baked]

You sure they aren't talking about San Francisco?

[MacRumorSkeptic]

If the book of Revelation is true I don't believe we can know exactly how it will come about.
There are a lot of differing opinions on the meaning of certain scriptures.

For example the destruction of Mystery Babylon (Rev. 17 & 18). Many think these chapters describe the United States of America and that her destruction will open up the opportunity for a one world government to take control (maybe the U.N.).

When it comes to the Mark of the Beast some wonder if it will simply be a mark on your forehead or hand or GPS chip technology embedded in your forehead or hand.

As for the Anti-Christ the prime candidate would have to be Maitreya (www.shareintl.org) or someone very much like him. Remember that the Anti-Christ is not someone that most people will fear but will rather look at him as someone who has the answers to the problems of the time.

[brogers]

Very interesting stuff. I love it. I too am a believer in the Rapture as well as the 7 year Tribulation. I have read the Left Behind series and Revelations as well as most of the Bible.

I also consider myself "saved" as I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior. I feel though that the most important part of all the end times stuff is to stay focused on my personal relationship with Jesus and to leave the when and hows to him.

I have seen some people get so caught up in the prophecy stuff that they forget to be a Christian.

BTW, I would love to see the Steve Jobs/Messiah paper or whatever it was. Jesus fulfilled all the Old Testement prophecies for the Messiah.....all of them. That is over 300. Statistically that is impossible unless of course, he was the Messiah.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Shrek, i must point out that when you look at all the crimes against humanity that Saddam had done, the world community did little if anything! And the little it did was with the U.S. pushing as hard as it could. The world is perfectly ripe for the next Hitler,antichrist or whatever you want to call him. I think this person will indeed come out of Europe somewhere and will be able to fool all the Peace marcher types, the appeasers, the so called do nothings and he will use this to gain power. It will be to late for many by the time they figure this out.

[Stelliform]

....

[scem0]

Didn't god say after he flooded the world that he would never
punish us again, or something along those lines?

THe whole idea of rapture seems contradictory to 'God's
uncodional love'.

:(

[chewbaccapits]

I'm a Believer here as well, good to see other here, follow the Lord...One thing though, that Maitreya stuff is kinda scary...

[brogers]

Good point Scem0.

However, God makes it perfectly clear that there are consequences for our actions. That is why we have "free will". We can choose our path, but sin comes with a cost.

The rapture clears the world of the people that belongs to God/Jesus and paves the way for terrible things brought on by man/Satan. Those caught up in the Rapture are rewarded by not having to be here during those times. There is no complete destruction of the world. Jesus comes back and reigns for 1000 years.

There will, however, be death, earthquakes and famine. Not a good place to be for that 7 years.

I liken it to my kids. I love them 100%. They do something wrong, I still love them, but they must pay the price. Does not change my love for them at all.

Someone smarter than me can chime in whenever they want if I have the rapture part wrong.

[alset]

Originally posted by brogers
Jesus fulfilled all the Old Testement prophecies for the Messiah.....all of them. That is over 300. Statistically that is impossible unless of course, he was the Messiah.

But you never met the man. If, years from now, my paper calling Steve a messiah had origins unknown then all kinds of embellishments could be considered statistical proof.

Dan

[brogers]

Originally posted by alset
But you never met the man. If, years from now, my paper calling Steve a messiah had origins unknown then all kinds of embellishments could be considered statistical proof.

Dan

True and a good point. The Bible however is a really accurate history of the world that has survived for thousands of years. The prophecies of Jesus were documented during his life and accounts of his life were written very shortly after his death by people who knew him.

These people also knew that they could be killed for their faith and teachings. Seems logical that they would not go so far as to die for something they knew to be wrong.

Then there is faith. If you don't have it, none of the Bible works.

[iJon]

Originally posted by brogers

Then there is faith. If you don't have it, none of the Bible works.
exactly, its like trying to tell someone harry potter is true. gotta have faith to believe in it. which i do, but it is very hard to prove, although didnt they find noah's arc some time ago?

iJon

[scem0]

I don't know how they could possible find a ship and know that
it was 'Noah's Arc'...... Well, the story of Noah was taken from
the Sumarian Story of Gilgamesh, so it wouldn't really credit the
bible much if the did find it. :rolleyes:

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
I don't know how they could possible find a ship and know that
it was 'Noah's Arc'...... Well, the story of Noah was taken from
the Sumarian Story of Gilgamesh, so it wouldn't really credit the
bible much if the did find it. :rolleyes:

That what some people try to say--that because two stories are closely related they must be one and the same, but they're really not. The idea that Noah's story is based upon a Sumarian story is only speculation and nothing more.

[brogers]

Most ancient cultures have a story of world flooding. These are all told from different parts of the world by civilizations that could never have met each other. Seems likely to me that a great flood happened.

Oceanographers as starting to study shore lines and some other complicated stuff that I can't quote. Saw a great show on Discover a year or so ago about it. Turns out that they believe the Black Sea was once a thriving community in a deep valley that was flooded by a massive world wide event.

More stuff that makes me think that science will eventually proof the Bible correct.

Thing is, I don't need scientific proof or artifacts or ruins of ancient cities. I have faith and the word of God. Once I found faith, it just seemed to make since. Before that, it was a confusing mess that I debated all the time.

[FatTony]

Originally posted by Shrek
But as I speak Babylon is being destroyed yet again, by coalition forces in the Persian Gulf and must again be rebuilt. After that it can only be destroyed once more once and for all time. If that is true, then who must rebuild Babylon? I believe that it is the Antichrist himself! He will rebuild it to be the most technologically advanced, earthquake-proof, modern city in the world!

Well, Bush is asking for $2.5 billion (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/25/sprj.irq.bush.day/index.html) (out of his request for $75 billion) for for relief and reconstruction of Iraq. Does that make Bush the antichrist?

I think it would take more than $2.5 billion to make any city the "most technologically advanced, earthquake-proof, modern city in the world."

[Shrek]

Originally posted by FatTony
Well, Bush is asking for $2.5 billion (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/25/sprj.irq.bush.day/index.html) (out of his request for $75 billion) for for relief and reconstruction of Iraq. Does that make Bush the antichrist?

I think it would take more than $2.5 billion to make any city the "most technologically advanced, earthquake-proof, modern city in the world."

Well, yes, $2.5 billion isn't enough. Most of the money needed to rebuild the country will come from it's own treasures--it's oil wells. ;)

And no, Bush is not the Antichrist. He hardly fits the Biblical prophecy for the Antichrist.

[Mr. Anderson]

Last I checked Babylon was not a major city in Iraq and is only a tourist attraction (well, would be if you could go) south of Bagdad.

I don't think its going to be destroyed in the war, and its not been rebuilt, either.

D

[Shrek]

Originally posted by dukestreet
Last I checked Babylon was not a major city in Iraq and is only a tourist attraction (well, would be if you could go) south of Bagdad.

I don't think its going to be destroyed in the war, and its not been rebuilt, either.

D

"Babylon" in the Bible is really is a generic term for "the headquarters of Satan." Present-day Iraq was the first such headquarters, but was eventually moved to Rome in 70 A.D. after the fall of Babylonian Empire to the Romans. But "Babylon" is about to move back to present-day Iraq where it is believed that the Antichrist (or Son of Satan) himself will rule from it. :eek:

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Shrek
"Babylon" in the Bible is really is a generic term for "the headquarters of Satan." Present-day Iraq was the first such headquarters, but was eventually moved to Rome in 70 A.D. after the fall of Babylonian Empire to the Romans. But "Babylon" is about to move back to present-day Iraq where it is believed that the Antichrist (or Son of Satan) himself will rule from it. :eek:

Sure, ah thanks for clearing that up for me. And you truly believe this?

I don't want to get this thread mired down, but you're making things a little too black and white here. Its never that simple and saying that the ultimate evil will be showing up is a little absurd. Sorry. You're entitled to your beliefs, and I respect that, but this is not for me.

D

[Potus]

Originally posted by MacRumorSkeptic
If the book of Revelation is true

Exactly.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by dukestreet
Sure, ah thanks for clearing that up for me. And you truly believe this?

I don't want to get this thread mired down, but you're making things a little too black and white here. Its never that simple and saying that the ultimate evil will be showing up is a little absurd. Sorry. You're entitled to your beliefs, and I respect that, but this is not for me.

Oh, Duke. Do you always have to lash out against freedom of speech on these boards? Prophecy is not something that is easy to understand, so not everyone will get it. But if you say this thread is not for you, then please, just don't get involved. Thank you for understanding. ;)

[Potus]

Tim LeHaye is a lunatic.

[Shrek]

Ok, Potus. That's enough.

[Potus]

Originally posted by Shrek
Ok, Potus. That's enough.

Would you prefer that I list his right-wing beliefs and causes?

[Shrek]

Originally posted by MacRumorSkeptic
If the book of Revelation is true I don't believe we can know exactly how it will come about.
There are a lot of differing opinions on the meaning of certain scriptures.

A tip to help you understand scripture better:

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense, but take every word at it's primary literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context clearly indicate otherwise. --Dr. David L. Cooper

[Shrek]

Originally posted by Potus
Would you prefer that I list his right-wing beliefs and causes?

Enough. I won't hear it.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Shrek
Oh, Duke. Do you always have to lash out against freedom of speech on these boards?

ah, excuse me, but did you read my last sentence?

"You're entitled to your beliefs, and I respect that, but this is not for me."

Not for me is the idea you're putting forward. I'm not lashing out, I'm engaging you in discussion of these beliefs. You can say just about anything you want, with in reason. If I don't agree, that's fine - not everyone agrees on a majority of the issues discussed in these forums. You need to realize this and not take every argument as a personal attack. If you come in here 'prophesizing', you should expect there to be some contrary discussion.

One big assumption you seem to make, in this case, is that everyone here is Christian - that's far from the case. Take less of a 'soap box' approach with these types of posts and you might even have an interesting and stimulating discussion.

D

[Potus]

Originally posted by Shrek
Enough. I won't hear it.

It's sad when someone fears the truth. On the other hand, it's always possible that you agree with him on matters other than his potboiler science fiction.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by dukestreet
One big assumption you seem to make, in this case, is that everyone here is Christian - that's far from the case. Take less of a 'soap box' approach with these types of posts and you might even have an interesting and stimulating discussion.

Huh? I never assumed that. I mean I know from my own experience that a lot of people on these boards are Christian, but not all. But that's not why I posted the thread. And yes, we are having an interesting, stimulating discussion already. Maybe you just can't see that because it's "not for you."

Ah, enough of this already. Back to business as usual. . .

[agreenster]

In all honesty, I seriously doubt that Iraq is going to see any type of technologically advanced city any time soon. After this war, it will be lucky (no matter how much money they have) to barely sustain government and a society, much less 'the most technologically advanced city ever.'

And dont attack Duke for not believing. I hate how Christians can be SO defensive sometimes.

I encourage you to read outside your beliefs once in a while and discover that Jesus was simply a Jew who believed that the Jewish law was too oppressive, and encouraged forgiveness and love. Paul spread 'Christianity' as we sort of know it today by concocting much of the hocus pocus of christianity. (the christmas story, miracles, and the diety of Jesus)

Americans are so narrow-minded sometimes, and we think we know everything.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Shrek
Huh? I never assumed that. I mean I know from my own experience that a lot of people on these boards are Christian, but not all. But that's not why I posted the thread. And yes, we are having an interesting, stimulating discussion already. Maybe you just can't see that because it's "not for you."

Ah, enough of this already. Back to business as usual. . .

duke wasn't attacking. so get off the soapbox

[Shrek]

Originally posted by agreenster
And dont attack Duke for not believing. I hate how Christians can be SO defensive sometimes.

Never did.

Funny how people can sometimes twist what you say or what you mean to say. I respect your right to be human.

Can we not get back to a decent, stimulating discussion? Like I said, back to business as usual. . . :D

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Shrek
Huh? I never assumed that. I mean I know from my own experience that a lot of people on these boards are Christian, but not all. But that's not why I posted the thread. And yes, we are having an interesting, stimulating discussion already. Maybe you just can't see that because it's "not for you."

Well, even if the majority of the people on the forum are Christian, my point is that your approach needs to be a little different, less pontificating and more open. Its always tough with personal beliefs, not everyone is going to share them with you. By not accepting any critisism and going ahead with blinders you're only making it worse.

Agreenster's got the right of it - open your mind a bit and see that there is so much more out there. This is not a personal attack,either. I'm fine with my beliefs and you should accept that.

D

[Shrek]

Potus, let's hear those right wing beliefs and causes of Tim Lahaye. :D

[Megaquad]

..about end times: Father Elijah by Michael D. O' Brien
He said he wrote book while he was inspired by holy ghost and book is authentic to bible's teachings.
It is a very intriguing thriler, I recommend you to read it.

It describes that antichrist was president of "federation of european countries" who was influenced by satan/sold his soul etc. and yet God sent father Elijah to tell antichrist he is offering him one more chance to leave satan etc.
Very, but very good book!
p.s. i think it says in bible that apocalypse will come on one easter.. and I doubt somehow it will be this one ;)

[Gus]

Originally posted by agreenster
I encourage you to read outside your beliefs once in a while and discover that Jesus was simply a Jew who believed that the Jewish law was too oppressive, and encouraged forgiveness and love. Paul spread 'Christianity' as we sort of know it today by concocting much of the hocus pocus of christianity. (the christmas story, miracles, and the diety of Jesus)

agreenster, while I don't think you intended this to be an attacking post, it is really difficult for a Christian to read this and not take it personally. Your posts suggests that everything we believe in is a bunch of rubbish, and that we are stupid for believing it. Yes, it does. Calling any part of Christianity "hocus pocus" is demeaning.

I am a very well read Christian with a scientific leaning, but that doesn't mean I don't believe any less, and that I don't take offense to comments like this.

While Shrek may have started this thread a little more boldly than I might have, please don't condemn him for his posts. If you don't have an interest in Christian ideas or prophecy, why do you bother to read a thread with a title like this one, and better yet, why do you bother to post something that tells the poster that they are wrong, or not open. You condemn Shrek for not being open to other peoples' ideas, and then you make fun of his ideas.

Shrek, in response to your actual thread topic, there is one thing on these boards that is backwards, I believe that the attack on Israel by Russia occurs before the rise of AntiChrist. It is the 3 years of peace that occur when the AntiChrist is rising to power, and when that is over, the bad stuff really happens.I could be wrong though.

Oh, by the by, I have read some of Tim Lahaye's other writings and yes, some of them seem to be a little extreme, but I do not think any of those ideas have bled into his "Left Behind" writings. For example, he believes that women should be subordinate to their husbands, but in the series of books, he writes very independent and strong female characters. This might be the influence (and need) of his partner, Jerry Jenkins.

Anyway, just wanted to add my thoughts on the topic.

Regards,
Gus

[vniow]

Originally posted by Shrek


Oh! We must be ready! If you haven't already accepted Christ as your savior, do it now before it is too late! And if you have already accepted Christ as your savior, perhaps you should do it again to be rest assured.


No thank you.

[agreenster]

Sorry Dude. I take my comment about 'Christians being so defensive' back. Obviously, I was wrong.


Seriously though, I think Im allowed to disagree with him. Why come into a thread just to disagree with it? Because it stirs discussion, and maybe it will make Shrek think. NO one wants to read a thread that is nothing but Amens and Preach On! I do have an interest in this topic, but I just disagree with it.

I was heavily raised in the church and was 'well-read' myself. But it wasnt until I actually started reading about Jews, and Mid-East history, and the nature of the wandering, waring tribes of Jesus' day did I begin to realize it was all just history. The Jews of the day needed a 'savior' for many different reasons, politcal, religious, etc...and Jesus offered the idealistic fundamental principles of forgiveness and love in place of Jewish law and restriction. He was killed for his beliefs, martyred, and legendized. It wasn't until Paul began preaching to the Greeks (who believed in half-diety, half-men because of their practices of mythology) did Jesus suddenly become God. It was a method for Paul to get through to the Greeks and gain support for the new Church. The majority of the gospels werent written for 40 years or more after Jesus' death. Plus, they are full of contradictions. I actually have a paper written about it.

Well, anyway, I could go on forever. My point is, read more and more, Shrek, from contradicting viewpoints, and learn to draw your own conclusions instead of accepting the Sunday School hocus pocus they've fed you since birth.

Here's a question to wet your whistle: If what you say is true, then can you honestly believe that all of the billions and billions of people throughout history (buddhists, Native Americans, wandering nomads, etc) who had never even heard of Jesus, and lived their life lovingly and selflessly are all burning in eternal damnation? I dont think so.

[Mr. Anderson]

Again, I agree with agreenster. Reading more and forming your own conclusions is by far the best approach here instead of letting someone else do the thinking for you. :D

D

[FatTony]

Originally posted by Shrek
And no, Bush is not the Antichrist. He hardly fits the Biblical prophecy for the Antichrist.

But he would make such a good one. Those darn quotas, we should get rid of affirmative action right now! :)

[Gus]

Well, once again, I have been labelled and generalized. If anything I say that is different from what you think is being "defensive", and anything you say that is different from the way that I think is logical, then how can I ever say anything without being defensive, or just a kook? Can you see the frustration in this situation?

Duke, I have always respected and enjoyed your posts, but are you insinusting that I allow others to think for me? Just because I believe in something that many others do does not mean that I am just following the herd. I was a non-believer for years, and only after much thought and a lot of faith did I make my decision.

About the buddhists, etc. If they were informed of God and Jesus and chose not to believe, then yes they do not have a place in heaven. If they were never exposed to God and Jesus either through writings or His word, then heaven is open to them. Children who do not know to make a decision are also allowed to enter heaven without a profession of faith.

By the way, if discussion is really what you are after, then how about wording your posts in the forms of questions, like "What makes you sure that Revelations is true?" or "Why do you believe in something that can't be proven?" Those questions by themselves are bound to start a discussion without seeming like a jibe or an attack. Once again, I really am not accusing you, just offering suggestions. If you wanted to ask a homosexual person why they were that way, would you ask them, "So what makes you a freak?" (JUST AN EXAMPLE, DON'T THROW FITS), no, if you were intent on a real discussion, you would ask, "When did you know you were gay?", or similar questions that allow the poster to respond without feeling like they HAVE to defend something.

Regards,
Gus

[Shrek]

Originally posted by agreenster
Here's a question to wet your whistle: If what you say is true, then can you honestly believe that all of the billions and billions of people throughout history (buddhists, Native Americans, wandering nomads, etc) who had never even heard of Jesus, and lived their life lovingly and selflessly are all burning in eternal damnation? I dont think so.

Now if I could just find the exact verses that talk about this, I'd show it to you. But let me just give you a rundown on that: The Bible does say that those who never hear of the word of God in their lifetime may not be sent to eternal damnation. Rather those who seek some kind of God, some kind of deity of love and justice will be saved. But those who hear of the word and reject it outright never to beleive it [again] will be subject to eternal damnation. I'll try and find the verses for you if need be. ;)

[agreenster]

Is because I dont have a question.

Anyway, I dont worry about the afterlife, or the antiChrist, or anything really. The only thing that makes me sad is leaving loved-ones alone here on earth after I die. Other than that, I trust the force of life that keeps me alive right now to sustain me in the life (or lack of one) to come. All humans are absolutely the same when it comes down to it, so I will simply follow in the pattern of life just like everyone who died before me, whatever that may be. I was born like everyone else, and I'll die just like everyone else. I wasnt worried about uncertanties when I was born (that I can remember! :)) so I wont worry about uncertainties when I die.

Politics, Religion, the AntiChrist, and the Rapture are all things I could give a rip about. I say love each other often, be quick to forgive, be generous, and live your life the best way you know how. That was the message of Jesus, and I'll follow that.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Gus
Duke, I have always respected and enjoyed your posts, but are you insinusting that I allow others to think for me? Just because I believe in something that many others do does not mean that I am just following the herd. I was a non-believer for years, and only after much thought and a lot of faith did I make my decision.

Ok, off to the wrong place here. I'm not insinuating a thing about you Gus. It was my impression that these comments were in return to the things that Shrek had mentioned earlier. I'm a Christian as well, but I have some reservations on being given ultimatums on what we should and shouldn't believe/do/think, etc.

There are so many ways to approach this discussion: these topics on religion will be with humanity forever. Truth based in fact vs. truth based in faith is not something that will ever have a resolution, period. They are two diametrically opposed paradigms that really don't mix.

Using the Bible as the 'source' of all the facts has its draw backs as well. In quite a few cases, as has continually been proven over the past centuries, the Bible was based on historical record. So it is a resource. But there are so many different beliefs, faiths, and religions. And in those religions there are different interpretations which cause even more confusion.

I can't exactly speak for agreenster, but what really bothers me is someone who uses the Bible to justify and corroborate their actions when it flies in the face of reality (there is a larger interpretation here that too big to go into right here). Just because you can open up the Bible and point to a passage and use that as 'proof' doesn't necessarilly make it right.

I'm not attacking anyone here. For me what this discussion has become is dealing with seeing people become open minded enough to realize that there are many sides to the issue and not all of them are wrong. They're just different.

And that's ok. :D

D

[Shrek]

Agreenster:

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. --Revelation 20:14-15

This is how the Bible describes Hell. In other verses it says this lake of fire and brimstone burns with sulfur and those who are thrown in it will tormented day and night forever and ever.

Forever and ever. Hmmm. That must mean an eternity. Think about what an eternity is for a minute. Ok, now think about spending an eternity in a lake of fire and brimstone that burns with sulfur where you will be tormented day and night. Does that not scare you?

It sure scares me and that's why I decided to follow Christ--because I fear God. But I don't fear him in a sense that "he's going to wreck my life." I fear him in the sense that if I don't follow Christ, well, you know. And there's nothing wrong with fearing God. The Bible does say that Christians are suppose to fear him.

Now I don't know about you, but I'd rather be on the safe side. :)

[agreenster]

Originally posted by Shrek
Agreenster:

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. --Revelation 20:14-15

This is how the Bible describes Hell. In other verses it says this lake of fire and brimstone burns with sulfur and those who are thrown in it will tormented day and night forever and ever.

Forever and ever. Hmmm. That must mean an eternity. Think about what an eternity is for a minute. Ok, now think about spending an eternity in a lake of fire and brimstone that burns with sulfur where you will be tormented day and night. Does that not scare you?

It sure scares me and that's why I decided to follow Christ--because I fear God. But I don't fear him in a sense that "he's going to wreck my life." I fear him in the sense that if I don't follow Christ, well, you know. And there's nothing wrong with fearing God. The Bible does say that Christians are suppose to fear him.

Now I don't know about you, but I'd rather be on the safe side. :)

Sigh. This is a scare tactic Shrek. It isnt true. It was written to less-intelligent people hundreds and thousands of years ago to convince them to follow the religion. What satisfaction would an all-powerful God have in throwing people into a mythical lake of fire?

No. That doesnt scare me because it isnt true. And no, I wont follow a God who threatens to throw me into a lake of fire if I dont listen to him. Its rubbish! God, if there is a God, wants us to be the best people we can be here on earth, not sit in a church pew every Sunday. You think God cares?

And if the only reason you 'decided to follow Christ' was because you are scared of Hell, then you became a Christian for all the wrong reasons, thats for sure. Sounds more like a life-insurance policy.

I dont claim to understand the meaning of life, or why we are all here, but I do know its more than just 'finding Jesus, ' and waiting out my time to die so I can avoid hell.

I think Forest Gump said it best when asked if he had 'found Jesus.' He said, "I didnt know I was supposed to be lookin' for him."

[vniow]

Originally posted by Shrek


Forever and ever. Hmmm. That must mean an eternity. Think about what an eternity is for a minute. Ok, now think about spending an eternity in a lake of fire and brimstone that burns with sulfur where you will be tormented day and night. Does that not scare you?


It doesn't scare me at all, for the simple reason that I don't believe in it.

Remember this quote from earlier on in the thread?

Originally posted by brogers
Then there is faith. If you don't have it, none of the Bible works.

Faith is something that's subjective and personal so everybody's beliefs are not the same, even if they belong to the same sect of the same religion.

I don't believe in the Rapture or Heaven or Hell, but that does not mean that it doesn't exist, it just doesn't exist for everybody.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by agreenster
What satisfaction would an all-powerful God have in throwing people into a mythical lake of fire?

None. That's why He sent his son Jesus.

[Gus]

Duke, I am sorry. I've muddled up my message so much here. You are right, and I did know that you were a Believer based on posts in other threads.

I totally agree with you on using the Bible as fact, and I especially agree with you when you talk about a discussion with faith versus "fact". I guess what I'm trying to say is that while agreenster makes points, his points are based on someone else's speculation on what Paul "really" was trying to do. None us knew what Paul was trying to do except for what he wrote. These discussions always boil down to faith. Being a believer requires taking a great deal on faith. I am studying for my doctoral music comrehensive exams right now, and one of my chosen pieces is the opera Moses und Aron by Arnold Schoenberg. In Act I, scene 3, the whole action revolves around the doubt of the Jews when Moses and Aaron tell them about their "new" God, the one and only God, and they have a very hard time accepting this fact. This of course leads to the miracles in which they believe. I just thought about how that relates to this discussion. It's all a leap of faith.

Regards,
Gus

[Shrek]

Originally posted by vniow
It doesn't scare me at all, for the simple reason that I don't believe in it.

Remember this quote from earlier on in the thread?

Faith is something that's subjective and personal so everybody's beliefs are not the same, even if they belong to the same sect of the same religion.

I don't believe in the Rapture or Heaven or Hell, but that does not mean that it doesn't exist, it just doesn't exist for everybody.

And you think that the sun, the moon, the stars, the ocean, life on earth-- you think that was all just an accident? It can't be.

[Shrek]

Let me ask you an all important question, vniow. If the rapture occurs, and when it does, and you're still here, what will you think?

[vniow]

Originally posted by Shrek
And you think that the sun, the moon, the stars, the ocean, life on earth-- you think that was all just an accident? It can't be.

Ummmm....ok.http://forums.tactical-ops.to/images/smilies/o_O.gif

I'm not sure where that came from, but whatever.

[vniow]

Originally posted by Shrek
Let me ask you an all important question, vniow. If the rapture occurs, and when it does, what will you think?

That's the thing though, I don't believe it will occur so I'm not sure how I would answer that.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by vniow
That's the thing though, I don't believe it will occur so I'm not sure how I would answer that.

This is not a question a question of wether or not you believe it. You're avoiding the question altoghether. Again I ask, IF the rapture occurs. . . what will you think? What will you do?

[Shrek]

Gotta go now. Be back in a couple of hours. . .

[vniow]

Originally posted by Shrek
This is not a question a question of wether or not you believe it. You're avoiding the question altoghether. Again I ask, IF the rapture occurs. . . what will you think? What will you do?


Go about my normal life.

Can't add much more to that.

Edit: You know, there's really no telling what I would do, I could speculate all day and end up doing something completely different if it were to occur so any response would be irrelevant.

I could tell you what I would like to do, but not what I would do.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Shrek
And you think that the sun, the moon, the stars, the ocean, life on earth-- you think that was all just an accident? It can't be.

Ah, now this is a good question. And brings up the faith vs. fact issue. If you think that 4000 years ago or so that if the Jewish Rabbis who wrote down Genisis knew about how the universe was created that they would have put made sure they got it right.

Well obviously they really didn't know (and even modern science today doesn't know), so they used a mystical fable to fill in the gaps. There's nothing wrong with that even though some people refuse to believe even today that the universe is billions of years old.

What's wrong with believing in God and believing in the age of the universe? Nothing. Maybe this is just one of many things God has left to us to figure out. We don't know where the universe and therefore all the stars, planets and galaxies came from. Using the 'Big Bang' as a theory is almost the same as saying God made the Heaven and the Earth in 6 days. Although with the Big Bang, its observed through science and not read in a book.

Every night I go out and see the stars I can't help but feel awed by its size and complexity. I don't think all of it was a mistake, either. But I also believe that we don't have all the answers and that we won't ever find them. But I'll live as good a life as possible knowing that I'm part of something much bigger. :D

D

[runningman]

Originally posted by Shrek
This is not a question a question of wether or not you believe it. You're avoiding the question altoghether. Again I ask, IF the rapture occurs. . . what will you think? What will you do?
NOw this isn't bait. Butwhat would you do Shrek if you were still here? What would any of use do? Actually this question was asked on another thread.
From my christian up bringing and the catholic schools etc. the fire and brimstone wasn't preached. Hell was living without God and God's love. That was the damnation knowing that you could have had it all by just accepting God's love and God's doctrine and accepting things on faith. But instead you chose against that. You chose out of your own free will same as you chose to accept. Accepting because you fear fire and brimstone doesn't work. It's accepting the love with free will that does.
:D ;)

[Gus]

I also see nothing wrong with combining sccience and my faith. For example, I have no problem believing that God created man and woman, and I also have no problem with the theory of evolution. God does not specifically say HOW he created man. And for those who have a hard time with the Bible's account of woman being created with Adam's rib, well, that is a little strange, but even if you only subscribe to evolutionary theory, we still have no idea how exactly it happend, and which sex evolved first. Or, I guess you could assume that both sexes evolved parallel to each other. It's not the sex that matters, but the idea. Neither idea can really be proven. Evolution does happen, but we can't see back in time to exactly where and how we became man. We have the evidence of neanderthal man and Java man, etc. and the ficsh that grew legs, etc., but we don't really know why or how these things were forced to evolve. In that sense, even those who only see evolutionary theory are taking a leap of faith with science. You are believing something that can't be directly proven. For that matter, we are all assuming that science is right about a lot of things like the Sun for instance. We have no idea what the actual inside of the sun looks like, but we have hypothesized based on some assertions of some pretty darn smart people. Like I said before, it's all a leap of faith.

Regards,
Gus

[Rower_CPU]

What aspects of evolution can't be "directly" proven to you?

[wdlove]

Originally posted by vniow
Go about my normal life.

Can't add much more to that.

Edit: You know, there's really no telling what I would do, I could speculate all day and end up doing something completely different if it were to occur so any response would be irrelevant.

I could tell you what I would like to do, but not what I would do.

My understanding is that it will be a frightening time in which to live. Jesus in Matthew "Two women will be working in the field, one will be taken. Woe to that person that is left."

[WinterMute]

I was never comfortable with the "carrot and stick" nature of Western Christianity (or many of the worlds religeons for that matter), I found it simplistic as a world-view, it also smacked of bullying. I appreciate the free-will arguments and I've done my share of scripture study, and this post is in no way meant as an attack on anyone's personal beliefs, but...

I'm an atheist. There is no rapture and there will be no hell, death is an ending, just as everything returns to entropy and chaos. Our purpose, as far as I can tell, is to hold off entropy as long as we are physically able.

This is not a knee-jerk reaction, I have come to this position after many conversations and arguments (some very heated) over many years. Consequently, the fact that someone has drawn parallells in contemporary events with writings that are altered in translation and by church politics means precisely nothing to me.

This war is not sign, it's a war, that's bad enough without reading the end of the world into it.

I hope that everyones faith is a source of comfort and strength to them, I personally find no need for it.

On a slight tangent, prophecy is a notoriously fickle business, Nostradamus was a crowd pleaser in the court of the Sun King, his "prophecy" was designed to be self-fulfilling, and whilst I don't equate that charleton with any scripture, there are parallells.

As Heinlien once wrote: "An authentic soothsayer should be shot on sight, cassandra didn't get half the kicking she deserved"

[scem0]

Arguing Creatonism vs. Evolutionism is stupid.

Everyone, including the Creationists, know the Evolutionists are
right but they are too stubborn to admit it. Every single piece
of proof is on evolutionism's side.

Here is a pic which I like a lot ;)

well, I couldn't find it but it said something along these lines:
Evolution - "Here is the evidence, what can we drawn from it?"
Creatonism - "Here is what we believe, how can we prove it?"

something like that. I've posted it before, so someone might
be able to find it.

But back on the issue at hand - I still don't see why God would
do this if he was all-forgiving, and all-loving.

WHere is Krossfyter when you need him. He always has a clear,
unbiased answer to my questions.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by dukestreet
Ah, now this is a good question. And brings up the faith vs. fact issue. If you think that 4000 years ago or so that if the Jewish Rabbis who wrote down Genisis knew about how the universe was created that they would have put made sure they got it right.

The Word of God comes from God and nowhere else. ;)

[scem0]

I want to see someone prove that...... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Shrek]

Originally posted by runningman
Butwhat would you do Shrek if you were still here?

Ask forgiveness from God for whatever I did wrong and never trust the Antichrist.

[scem0]

would you be mad? You put your trust in God and he left you
to the rapture. I sure would be mad...

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
I want to see someone prove that...... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The proof is in the pudding. Put your life in God's hands, study his word, and after awhile everything will begin to make sense to you. That's what happened to me.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
would you be mad? You put your trust in God and he left you
to the rapture. I sure would be mad...

It won't happen. I know in my heart that I am saved.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by WinterMute
I was never comfortable with the "carrot and stick" nature of Western Christianity (or many of the worlds religeons for that matter), I found it simplistic as a world-view, it also smacked of bullying.


Look at it from a different perspective. By making it fire and brimstone, using scare tactics you're also saying that if you believe in another God you're going to hell. "This" is the true path, etc.

Its political with economic principles applied. The more people you have, the more money they give you, the more powerful you get, etc. The Catholic Church during the last millenium is a perfect example here.

When its people with their own motives and desires for power, etc., that you're dealing with, God and religion sometimes become the vehicle used to get there. Spirituality is very personal, religion is not.

I'm not saying that all religion is bad, either. And as a whole, I think the human race is still moving in a positive direction in terms of spirituality and enlightenment in what ever form that takes. Our human nature is slowly changing to make things better for all people. But there will always be stumbling blocks, Sadams, Hitlers, Stalins, etc. in the way. It will take us many more centuries or millenia to create a society that is closer to providing equality for its citizens. I just hope I can do something to help us all get there quicker. :D

D

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Shrek
The Word of God comes from God and nowhere else. ;)

Ok, I'm going to bite here, but I'm not thinking it will do any good.

Explain to me how you think the Old Testament was written, especially Genisis.

D

[WinterMute]

I agree to the extent that the church as a political/socioeconomic power has very little to do with faith and everything to do with religeon.

The biggest landowner in the UK is the Church of England. They have a vested interest in keeping the masses terrified and superstitious, it keeps the money rolling in.

I'm not so nieve as to believe that this is all the church is about, as it's role in the community is undeniable, I simply have no fear of the threat, as I have no belief in a god.

As an aside, burn victims don't feel pain after the initial injury, as all the nerves ae gone, does this assume a level of tissue regeneration in the lake of fire?

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by WinterMute
I'm not so nieve as to believe that this is all the church is about, as it's role in the community is undeniable

Very true, but its the more secular aspect of the church I was refering to, sorry. Christianity as a whole, is a decent religion, teaching a set or morals that have stood the test of time for over millenia. They are a good basis for living a good and prosperous life.

D

[Shrek]

Originally posted by dukestreet
Ok, I'm going to bite here, but I'm not thinking it will do any good.

Explain to me how you think the Old Testament was written, especially Genisis.

I know that the first 5 books of the Old Testament were written by Moses. And Moses himself had made contact with God according to the Bible. God spoke through Moses.

In the New Testament the first four books are written by four of Jesus' disciples. Jesus spoke through His disciples.

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by dukestreet
Christianity as a whole, is a decent religion, teaching a set or morals that have stood the test of time for over millenia. They are a good basis for living a good and prosperous life.

D

Agreed, many stable religions provide excellent social frameworks, they are light in an uncertain world, but they have also killed more people through-out history than anything short of bubonic plague, and that comes a poor second.

It is too easy to find conflicting ground in the world's religions, there just doesn't seem enough willingness to co-exist.

[Gus]

Originally posted by scem0
Arguing Creatonism vs. Evolutionism is stupid.

Everyone, including the Creationists, know the Evolutionists are
right but they are too stubborn to admit it. Every single piece
of proof is on evolutionism's side.

First, if you read my post, I stated that I believe in evolution.Second, our sciencetific "proof" of evolution is not direct. There is no one has has found a strand of DNA or genteic material that they have followed through time and actually seen the genetic material change spontaneously. They have speculated on the observations of different species' ability to adapt and change through time. That IS evolution, but it is not any proof. They observe and have a good theory. 500 years ago, scientists observed that certain materials burned easily, while others did not, or not at all. Scientists decided there was a chemical called "flagiston" that existed in these materials that allowed them to burn or not. We now know this is wrong. They did not have actual proof of the mystery chemical, but they observed the reactions of materials. If you have incontrovertable evidence of evolution then I would be more than happy to change my statements and my ideas. Just please show me an instance where scientists have actually documented the evolution of a species, and I seriously will agree with you. Otherwise, evolutionary theory is just that-a theory.

Because while God is all-knowing and all-loving, he is also a vengeful God. He wil smite those who have chosen against him. You're going to say, "so there's the proof, if you don't do it your way, then we all burn in hell". In a word, yes. If you have the knowledge about God and Jesus, and you choose to ignore it, then you will not go to heaven. It does not matter how good of a person you are now, only if you believe in Jesus. Yes, you should model your like after Jesus, and obey the commandments, but as long as you believe, your transgressions on earth will be forgiven.

Some have stated that they think Christians are too pushy or too defensive. It really is not that we are defensive or trying to be pushy. Really. It's just that we know what is going to happen-God told us in Revelations-and he also told us how to avoid the suffering of the end times, and we are trying to help you both avoid the Tribulation by being ready before the Rapture, and to let you understand what it is to be a believer. It is not all about fire and brimstone, although some stress that more than anything else as a scare tactic. Just consider it a warning. You have the free will to choose which way you would like to go, but it can have consequences.

For the atheists: if you are so sure that you are right, and everything ends when we die, why are you concerned with what I, or others believe? I mean, does it really matter?Even if you don't believe in a religion, you have to realize that when beings die, they are put back into the system, so to speak. Your decomposing body will nourish the soil, etc., etc. it happens all of the time with every living thing.

Anyway, this has been interesting. Thanks for the discussion.

Regards,
Gus

[brogers]

Originally posted by scem0
Arguing Creatonism vs. Evolutionism is stupid.

Everyone, including the Creationists, know the Evolutionists are
right but they are too stubborn to admit it. Every single piece
of proof is on evolutionism's side.

Here is a pic which I like a lot ;)

well, I couldn't find it but it said something along these lines:
Evolution - "Here is the evidence, what can we drawn from it?"
Creatonism - "Here is what we believe, how can we prove it?"

something like that. I've posted it before, so someone might
be able to find it.

But back on the issue at hand - I still don't see why God would
do this if he was all-forgiving, and all-loving.

WHere is Krossfyter when you need him. He always has a clear,
unbiased answer to my questions.

No, that is incorrect. That would mean that people around the world that believe in creation are walking around lying to everyone and themselves. Not so for me. You are being too general with your statements.

Also, I have studied alot of evolution...I was once a non believer...and they all fall short and admit that evolution can't be proven either. For example, some scientists are now saying that whales came from wolves which goes against what evolutionists once believed. Seems like everytime I watch a show about evolution, they are changing what came from what. It cannot be proven at all...only speculated.

Also, if Christianity was as easy to explain away as so many here are pointing out, then we would not have Christianity. It has survived for 2000 years and creation even longer than that. I suspect that they both will be around a lot longer and evolutionist will still by trying to convince everyone that whales were once wolves. I just choose creation because it makes more since. It is a faith thing.

Lastley, I answered your last concern earlier. God gave us free will. He never said "go act how you want, deny me, do as you please and you can see me in the end." He makes it clear that there are conscequinces for our actions. Our sins are not rewarded, but our faith in Jesus is the reward. Just my thoughts.

[Gus]

The Bible has been written the same way since the beginning: God chooses writers or prophets to whom he dictates the events that have happened, or the events that are to come. Sometimes an angel is chosen to bring the word of God to us, sometimes it is a man like Jesus, but any way you look at it, the Bible is the Word of God.

Are their issues with translations, and the persons who copied the Bible throughout time, yes, but those who believe know that to alter the book of God is to suffer the same fate as those that choose not to believe. The end of the Bible makes this point clear.

Regards,
Gus

[runningman]

OOHHHH making head hurt:D
The best thing about this thread so far. No bait just gentle discussions with both sides at a point agreeing to disagree.
Matter of fact. I'm a believer in evolution but have to prefice with that trying to figure out why 3 billion years ago a single cell organism came to being out of a swamp of muck by random chance alone just can't be done. If there is nothing after this, if there is nothing for us to work for or to that isn't an atheist beleif that's nihilistic(sorry for the spelling)
:rolleyes:

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by Gus

For the atheists: if you are so sure that you are right, and everything ends when we die, why are you concerned with what I, or others believe? I mean, does it really matter?Even if you don't believe in a religion, you have to realize that when beings die, they are put back into the system, so to speak. Your decomposing body will nourish the soil, etc., etc. it happens all of the time with every living thing.

I'm concerned with what you or anyone thinks and believes because I don't live in a vacuum, and I'm open minded. If you or anyone else can show me that error in my belief to my personal satisfaction I will gladly change my mind, it's been tried and, so far, nothings changed.

Please don't asume that lack of faith equates to lack of humanity or a general malaise. I care about a great many things, religion simply isn't one of them.

[erik1975]

Originally posted by Shrek
This is not a question a question of wether or not you believe it. You're avoiding the question altoghether. Again I ask, IF the rapture occurs. . . what will you think? What will you do?

I prefer to take a Catholic view on your comment. (maybe because I am Catholic)

First of all, rapture is not biblical, which is interesting for some sola-scriptura people to explain. Still many Protestants may tend to argue either there is pre-tribulation, post-tribulation, etc.

I believe that one must live their faith every day of their life. We should not worry about when the end times are coming. Is forcasting the end times a way of gauging when we should decrease the level of sin in our life, or maybe repent all together from no faith at all. I say NO! We are called to be holy people, period! It really makes living life a lot better by knowing that we are calledto be the best people we can while here on earth, and that by the grace of God when he chooses to take us from this planet we may spend eternity in Heaven with Him as a reward.

I am not trying to flame, or criticize anyone. This is simply what 'I' believe, and how I try to live my life.

P.S. I also believe that God is not the one who chooses to cast people into the fire of Hell, it is up to people on Earth who choose to ignore Him that 'request' a trip to Hell.

[Gus]

Good point runningman, and I was just about to say that. Nihlism and atheism are not interchangable words. You can not believe in God (why, I don't know :), but still believe in a point to life.

Regards,
Gus

[Rower_CPU]

Gus-

So is the fossil record meaningless to you, or is it just not proof enough?

Scientists have shown how many species currently around today are directly descendant from the dinosaurs (birds, for example). Changes in our own species are documented from early primates through neanderthals to modern man through the fossil record.

Proof is there. People choose whether or not to believe it.

Also, regarding the phlogiston reference. New technology makes new insights into chemistry/biology/astronomy/etc possible everyday. The DNA sequence of humans was just decoded within the last year or so. Asking for people to show you "spontaneous" changes in DNA during evolution right now is like asking the early settlers in the US to erect a building 1000 feet tall. It's possible, but not with our current knowledge/technology.

[Gus]

Originally posted by WinterMute
Please don't asume that lack of faith equates to lack of humanity or a general malaise. I care about a great many things, religion simply isn't one of them.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply a lack of humanity, I was trying to imply that you just did not believe in anything after death, and if you did how you took into account nature.

Sorry about that.

Regards,
Gus

[Mr. Anderson]

Wow, this thread is really getting interesting and there is too much to handle ;)

Shrek: Blanket statements are easy. The Pentateuch (first five books of the bible) are attributed to Moses, but not without some controversy.

Moses obviously did not write the account of his own death in Deuteronomy 34.

In the original documents, or the oldest ones available to scholars, each book has subtle differences, different names for God, and writing styles. All indications of different authors. Sure its not proof, but its no more proof than what you've given me.

As for the Creationism vs. Evolution - well, everyone can believe what they want, but I'd have to say I'm a believer of wolf-like mammals being the ancestors to whales :D And sure, the 'findings' are always changing. That's because new evidence keeps being found with new fossils that require rethinking old theories.

If you were to address a paleological society 100 years ago about what is taken for theory today you'd be laughed off the podium. And the thing is we are by no means finished in determining our past on this planet.

Brogers, how old do you believe the earth to be?

D

[Gus]

Rower-that is my point. It cannot be shown as proof right here in front of you. We are relying on our future ailities to accomplish something that we don't know can be done today. That is faith. You are not 100% sure, but you know one day you will be. Faith.

I have stated twice now that I believe in evolution. The fossil record exists and documents things that were indeed alive at one point in history, and are now dead. DNA cannot be extracted from fossils, so there is no way to prove that the dinosaurs and birds are directly related BUT the evidence sure does make a real good case. I even subscribe to that theory, BUT there is no incontrovertable proof that this is the case. We cannot see the direct genetic link betweenthe two species, but because of all of the observations we have made, we theorize that this is what happened.

Regards,
Gus

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by runningman
OOHHHH making head hurt:D
The best thing about this thread so far. No bait just gentle discussions with both sides at a point agreeing to disagree.

And I want to thank everyone for discussing this maturely and not getting carried away. Other religious threads have come up before, only to be shut down due to personal attacks and general flaming.

Congrats all :D

D

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by Gus
Good point runningman, and I was just about to say that. Nihlism and atheism are not interchangable words. You can not believe in God (why, I don't know :), but still believe in a point to life.

Regards,
Gus

Absolutely, there is a point to life, we are self-aware and that sentience carries a responsibility.

If I am simply a mechanism for perpetuating a gene pool, OK, but I'm also the being that gives my daughter some of her world view (I don't discuss god with her, she is free to make her own choices based on her education, later, IF she asks, then we'll discuss it) and I'm a dynamic force in my society, I change others as they change me.

This may well be the entire purpose of life.:)

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by Gus
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply a lack of humanity, I was trying to imply that you just did not believe in anything after death, and if you did how you took into account nature.

Sorry about that.

Regards,
Gus

No apology neccassary Gus, we athiests have thicker skin and less to get riled about:D

[Gus]

Originally posted by dukestreet
And I want to thank everyone for discussing this maturely and not getting carried away. Other religious threads have come up before, only to be shut down due to personal attacks and general flaming.

Congrats all :D

D

Yeah, this has got to be a record. 4 pages (going on 5) and no flame wars or name calling yet. WooHoo!

Regards,
Gus

[mymemory]

Just in my lifetime (I'm 28) the world should be destroyet about 8 times at list.
In 1988
1999
1990
1996
1997
1998
1999

In 1988 because I do not know what, later because of the Desert Storm stuff, later because some Maya profecies and stuff, then because the Y2K, before that because we were alingned with all the planets, etc.

But I have my eye on it any way.

[Gus]

mymemory, I'm confused, do you mean that it has been announced 8 times in your lifetime that the world is going to end?

Regards,
Gus

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by WinterMute
I'm a dynamic force in my society, I change others as they change me.

This may well be the entire purpose of life.:)

I feel the same here as well, but with one caveat - that the purpose might be to change in a positive direction, what ever that may be for the individuals in question. But that negative effects can also happen, which are to be avioded.

[iJon]

wow this getting to turn into a lot like my old thread "do you belive in god" this is all very interesting. i believe in god but based on faith, many of you bring up strong points and i do not know enough about the bible to say an educated to some of your guys answers, hopefully some people can so i can learn. lets hope no personally flaming goes on because this is really interesting and im learning alot and i dont want it to get shut down.

iJon

[Fukui]

About the buddhists, etc. If they were informed of God and Jesus and chose not to believe, then yes they do not have a place in heaven. If they were never exposed to God and Jesus either through writings or His word, then heaven is open to them.

This fails to take into account that not all people are exposed to the same life experiences, their brains are formed differently, they have different abilities for sense etc. therefore they can never be judged according to the same scale. If one person lost their loved one and rejected Christianity even after being preached to, and dies, that means they don't go to heaven??? What if, instead of dying the said person was preached to by a pastor that was "really good at it" and converted said person...then they can go to heaven? See the failure of logic? Why is it that one's salvation relies on how well someone can preach to you? If you believe god to be fair, you cannot believe that one needs salvation in order to be with together with god.

Secondly, I cannot believe either Christian, Jewish or Islamic, or other culture specific beliefs because they all say "god is only for the jews," god is only for the "pure muslims," "god is only for the saved." Blablabla, if you go to almost any other culture in the world you will find that their religion is rooted in their culture and theirs is the "one" chosen by god. Riiiiiiigghht.

So...which one do you believe? The one that lights most incense? The one with the most gods? The one with the strongest language? The one that scares the most crap outa ya?

Thirdly, the real problems in the world are not caused by "antichrists" or "devils," they are caused by our own selfishness and inability to change when change is needed...we are hesitant to learn, quick to anger, and slow to change.

Think about the origin of conflict in the world, what is the cause? It is most likely selfishness. Think about it, why does a snake bite someone when they approach it? It is because it is scared of the person. Conversely, why is the person inclined to attack and kill snake? Because they are scared for their life. Why does someone mug a rich person to steal their wallet? Because they wouldn't help them when they asked.

This can be scaled to the conflicts in the world as well, why does Iraq have chemical and bio weapons? Because they are afraid America would attack them...and why is the U.S attacking Iraq? Because they are afraid Iraq would kill them!!! See the connection? We are all attacking each other because the other is afraid to die.

If we can just purge ourselves of these amounts of selfishness we can build instead of destroy. There may very well be something good that comes from the liberation of Iraq, but has anyone really tried to make peace with them so that don't need those weapons after all?

Just look at the people of Iraq and Saddam himself: why does he gas his own people and torture them? Because he is afraid of losing power, and why do the people threaten him? Because they are afraid he is going to kill them (which he would)...so you see its a vicious circle that we humans have been living in forever.

Buddhism, in its purest original form (before incense, golden statues, rosaries, holy water /* yes catholic took it from Buddhists */, monks in robes /* also derived from Buddhists */, and other frivolous items of uselessness), believed that we didn't know exactly why there are people here, why the universe is here, how reality came to exist, it is simply believed that all we can know is that we ARE here, and that in order for one to be enlightened, they had to stop asking questions that they can't answer and instead help each other and have compassion for all living beings. See how everything becomes easy once you stop chasing your tail? Even Jesus said the beautiful flowers neither spin nor toil, that hate causes hate, and that the less you have (worldly concerns), the more full your heart becomes.

We must learn to stop having little trust in others other wise everyone will suspect the other, it has to stop somewhere!!!!!
We don't need to rely on the devil bring an antichrist, we'll make one ourselves if we don't change.


When it comes to the Mark of the Beast some wonder if it will simply be a mark on your forehead or hand or GPS chip technology embedded in your forehead or hand.

Scott McNealy is already there, he put one in his dog and his employees are probably next...think about it, why would we even need to be tracked in our privacy if we weren't going to do something bad? Why would they need to track us unless they were afraid of something we would do?

I think, if christians would look more to what Jesus SAID instead of what others appended to his words, they would be more like buddhists...

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by iJon
lets hope no personally flaming goes on because this is really interesting and im learning alot and i dont want it to get shut down.

iJon

I'm not going to let it, I'm really enjoying this as well. A little intellectual stimulation and maybe helping people see things from a different perspective. I've learned some hear already ;)

D :D

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by dukestreet
I feel the same here as well, but with one caveat - that the purpose might be to change in a positive direction, what ever that may be for the individuals in question. But that negative effects can also happen, which are to be avioded.

Yup, and spotting the positive and negative effects ahead of time is the real challenge.

I think we'd all like to improve our lives and the lives of those around us, I just think its a more difficult task from within a rigidly structured belief framework, especially when trying to reach people of differing beliefs.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Fukui
I think, if christians would look more to what Jesus SAID instead of what others appended to his words, they would be more like buddhists...

That gets back to the whole political/socio-economic aspect of religions. In theory they all preach the good word, but in practice, because people are petty and egotists, human nature gets in the way and causes problems.

Makes for interesting times, but there's that quote I can't exactly remember about living in interesting times....

D

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by dukestreet
That gets back to the whole political/socio-economic aspect of religions. In theory they all preach the good word, but in practice, because people are petty and egotists, human nature gets in the way and causes problems.

Makes for interesting times, but there's that quote I can't exactly remember about living in interesting times....

D

"May you live in interesting times"

It was a curse I believe.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by WinterMute
I think we'd all like to improve our lives and the lives of those around us, I just think its a more difficult task from within a rigidly structured belief framework, especially when trying to reach people of differing beliefs.

Laws imposed on the faithful are put there for a reason, but over time, societies change and the laws don't allow for the growth. One reason why religions today are having problems with getting believers. I'm all for openess and before when I mentioned that spirituality is personal and religion isn't was sort of what you mentioned.

I'm very spiritual, but not very religious. I'm over awed by nature and the universe and am willing to go on faith alone that there is a reason for it all and God behind it. It would seem such a waste if it wasn't......

D

[Gus]

Fukui, welcome to the discussion, and what an entrance!

First, I will agree that selfishness is a prime reason for conflict-the need to have something that someone else already has, however, I think you begin to oversimplify a bit when you start to discuss the concflicts in the world. I know you probably have much more to say about it, but it would probably fill about 4 pages of posts. :)

Before I continue, I found it ironic that in a discussion involving Christianity you include an example with a biting snake. Very nice!

Buddha was a wise man, no doubt about it, and the philosphy behind Buddhism is sound. I personally believe that both Buddha's and Jesus' reference to forsaking wealth was more to focus on the ideas rather than wealth being necessarily a bad thing, but for sure the need for material possessions has caused trounble throughout the years.

Now about your first example-the person who was a believer and chose to not believe? Yes, unfortunately, that person will not be saved. They have chosen of their own free will to reject God and Jesus. It is sad they had a loved one pass, but it is not an excuse to reject God. It is natural to question God in a time of loss, I have been guilty of it myself, but the important thing is that God can be there to help you through the hard times as well. Many non-believers would see that as a psychological crutch, but it is true that your belief can help.

Regards,
Gus

[Rower_CPU]

I see where you're coming from, Gus, but I still don't agree that the same kind of "faith" applies to science as to religion.

If a new discovery shows that humans are descended from prehistoric newts a scientist has some sort of objective evidence to back up his claim. He may be completely wrong, but he's got evidence. Objective, verifiable evidence. His conclusions are suspect, the "proof" is not.

In religion you are expected to have faith that the teachings in a book come from some higher power. You have to take these claims at face value, as there is no proof, objective or otherwise, to substantiate the claim.

To me, those are two very different ways of looking at things.

Just to let you all know my religious background and beliefs, so we're all on the same page here:
I was baptised Catholic, attended church until I was 8 or so, and then my family stopped going. No particular reason, just didn't feel that we were getting anything out of it.
I believe that there may be some sort of spirit/energy running through all things. Call it life energy, Gaia, whatever. The God in Western religion is the same as Allah, is the same as Buddha, etc. All one positive force.
To me, we have such an amazing, wonderful world around us that it seems a crime to spend your whole time looking to the "afterlife". To me, the promise of Heaven is a concept to comfort those scared of the finality of death. hell, likewise is a concept to make sure people take into account consequences extending past this life.
To me, a god that requires worship/sacrifice/faith in exchange for some payoff down the road is a ridiculous concept. It's more a gamble than a religion.
I believe the morals Jesus taught are good and should be practiced by everyone. I don't believe that people need the threat of Hell hanging over them to get them to behave in accordance with these morals.

*phew* :)

[Mr. Anderson]

Nice post Rower!

Ok, I'm off for a bit, everyone play nice! And thanks so far for a nice discussion.

D :D

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by dukestreet
Laws imposed on the faithful are put there for a reason, but over time, societies change and the laws don't allow for the growth. One reason why religions today are having problems with getting believers. I'm all for openess and before when I mentioned that spirituality is personal and religion isn't was sort of what you mentioned.

I'm very spiritual, but not very religious. I'm over awed by nature and the universe and am willing to go on faith alone that there is a reason for it all and God behind it. It would seem such a waste if it wasn't......

D

Strangely I come to much the same position but am sure it's a natural, random phenomena.

"All things shall pass" doesn't imply wastage to me, it implies a correctness of order leading to a proper ending, and that ending is right and should be welcomed.

I stand on the face of a spinning planet and I can now accept my place as truly insignificant, I look at the stars and the planets and see the inevitable physics of the cosmos, but I truly can't accept an intelligence designing and running it all. To posit one would lead to the supposition of others, and where does that leave an omni-potent deity?

Maybe the ancient Greeks were right...;)

[Gus]

Fukui, also about the multiple religions, and who is right?

Well....

I think that this all stemmed from the Tower of Babel story in the Bible. When the people tried to create a tower that would reach God and be equal to him, he destroyed the tower and sent the people to different corners of the earth. He also made sure they spoke different languages so that they could not rebuild the tower. I believe that the reason why many of the beliefs of the major religions overlap is because of this. Basically, the major religions believe in a higher being, and a messenger/prophet/Messiah that follows. For the Muslims it is Mohammed, for the Jews, it is a Messiah that has yet to come, for the Christians, it is Jesus. Now, while I believe these things, I also believe in my God, which by the way is also the Jews' God, and his son Jesus as the saviour. As a Christian I believe that my God is an active, living God that the Bible speaks of and will one day return for me. now, does this mean that I think the other religions are wrong. Well, i believe that if they don't believe in Christ then they will not be with God in the afterlife. I DO NOT condemn them for that, I only wish that they can see the true God that Moses spoke of. I am not a hater of other religions. I do not despise people for not being Christian, and unless they ask, I will not evangelize to them. Like I said before, in Christianity their is free will to choose God or not, and I leave that up to them to make that decision.

Regards,
Gus

[Gus]

Oh yeah, I just thought of another faith example. Gravity. What? you say?! Everyone knows gravity is real, it keeps me from spinning into space!

I Agree.

But...

What in the world is gravity, really, and what causes it? When did it start? Will it ever end?

Some of you will point me to a site that shows that gravity is caused by centrifugal motion of the spinning of the earth and that it also deals with magnetic fields, etc., but HOW? Why did it start? If it is indeed caused only by the spinning of the earth, then what caused the spinning? The Sun? Ok, why does it have gravity, what started it spinning? You see what I mean? We know these things to happen, and what they do, but the reason is not as clear.

Looking back, maybe this wasn't such a great example. Darn. :p

Regards,
Gus

[Fukui]

now about your first example-the person who was a believer and chose to not believe? Yes, unfortunately, that person will not be saved. They have chosen of their own free will to reject God and Jesus. It is sad they had a loved one pass, but it is not an excuse to reject God. It is natural to question God in a time of loss, I have been guilty of it myself, but the important thing is that God can be there to help you through the hard times as well. Many non-believers would see that as a psychological crutch, but it is true that your belief can help.

Yes, but the problem comes when one person can be saved by someone, say...person A, but they are preached to by person B who is really bad at preaching... and they are not saved, see how it all can depend on who preached to you? It doesn't always rest on the person being preached to then...therefore how can god blame you for what someone else didn't do?

The only way I could see this happening is if god let you comeback in another life until you finally "believed." Then you could go to heaven...its the only fair way unless everyone receives compassion by god fairly. PLUS, why would Jesus help all of the wicked and evil people on the earth, but once they got to heaven, shut the door on them???:confused:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Fukui
PLUS, why would Jesus help all of the wicked and evil people on the earth, but once they got to heaven, shut the door on them???:confused:

Ok, I was following you until there. How does Jesus help all of the wicked people on earth?

As for the first part, I believe that if person A, is not good at preaching to you, that God will eventually send a person B. It's like with Moses and Aaron. Moses was not confident that he would not be able to speak to the people of Israel well and would not be able to get God's message across, so God allowed Moses' brother Aaron to do the talking and convincing. While Moses was still the one God chose to relay the commandments and free the Israelites, God allowed Aaron to use his ability to speak to the people to convince them to follow Moses. God will make sure that you have an opportunity to hear.

Now, one could be pessimistic and say that you already had a chance, and already heard the word when you were a believer to begin with, but I believe God gives you opportunities, and it's up to you to make the most of them.

Regards,
Gus

[Shrek]

Originally posted by Gus
I do not despise people for not being Christian, and unless they ask, I will not evangelize to them. Like I said before, in Christianity their is free will to choose God or not, and I leave that up to them to make that decision.

Yes, exactly. It is not a good idea to preach to someone unless they are willing to listen. I learned that lesson the hard way several months ago.

[Rower_CPU]

Now you're getting into stuff I like! :)

Here's the way I understand gravity as it's explained now. If we look at space as a plane (using 2D for the sake of simplicity) and that it's made of a firm yet pliable material. Objects in space sink slightly into the plane, causing depressions. These depressions are what cause objects to be "attracted" to planets, moons, stars, etc.

The denser the object, the larger the depression, the more "attractive" it is.

I'm sure duke will come in later and correct me. ;)

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by Gus

Now, one could be pessimistic and say that you already had a chance, and already heard the word when you were a believer to begin with, but I believe God gives you opportunities, and it's up to you to make the most of them.

Regards,
Gus

Where does that leave those who have never heard the christian message, or could never understand it if they had?

I'm thinking of those dying very young, or peoples from remote parts of the planet.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
The denser the object, the larger the depression, the more "attractive" it is.


Does that mean Angelina Jolie is "dense", cause she's awfully "attractive". LOL :-)

That's an intersting theory though. Got a link to anything about it?

Regards,
Gus

[Shrek]

Originally posted by Gus
God will make sure that you have an opportunity to hear.

God is always seeking those who are not followers of Christ. He is always "knocking on your door." He is just waiting for you to "answer it." He is always "calling you on the phone." He is just waiting for you to "pick it up" and listen. Ironically, Christianity is the only religion that teaches that God is always seeking the unsaved.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by WinterMute
Where does that leave those who have never heard the christian message, or could never understand it if they had?

I'm thinking of those dying very young, or peoples from remote parts of the planet.

If you go back a few pages in this thread and start reading you will find the answer to that question.

[Gus]

Originally posted by WinterMute
Where does that leave those who have never heard the christian message, or could never understand it if they had?

I'm thinking of those dying very young, or peoples from remote parts of the planet.

Sure, and actually, not to be mean, but I mentioned this a while ago in this thread. God explains that those that do not get the message will not be held accountable for non-decision. Chldren are also not held accountable as they are considered too young to understand or choose. It is, of course, a little more complex than that, but it is the basic gist of it. It centers around hearing the message of the Christians and still choosing to not believe. Like Al Pacino says in Devil's Advocate ,"Free will is a *itch".

Regards,
Gus

[Fukui]

As for the first part, I believe that if person A, is not good at preaching to you, that God will eventually send a person B.
My point was that person A, if they preached to you, then for sure you would be saved, but instead, if person B came, and they didn't, then why is it my fault that A didnt come?


Ok, I was following you until there. How does Jesus help all of the wicked people on earth?
Jesus cared for people that were prostitutes, tax-collector, killers, crippled (they though they were crippled because they did something bad), so why is it that once you die, that God/Jesus can't help you any more? It seems so arbitrary.

[iJon]

Originally posted by WinterMute
Where does that leave those who have never heard the christian message, or could never understand it if they had?

I'm thinking of those dying very young, or peoples from remote parts of the planet.
good question, ive always wondered that myself. we talked about this at camp. i believe somewhre in the bible there is an age of accountability, but i cant swear on it, maybe someone can make me right or make me wrong.

iJon

[wdlove]

Originally posted by Shrek
It won't happen. I know in my heart that I am saved.

Good for you, for you were chosen. It is up to us to accept his love or not. It is not by works alone but by faith. "No one comes to the Father accept through me." Jesus

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Gus
Does that mean Angelina Jolie is "dense", cause she's awfully "attractive". LOL :-)

That's an intersting theory though. Got a link to anything about it?

Regards,
Gus

Ha, density and attractiveness in terms of humans is a whole other subject. I would posit that in many cases, density and attractivess are directly proportional. ;)

I'll see what I can find...

[Fukui]

Chldren are also not held accountable as they are considered too young to understand or choose.

Also, when is it that a child is no longer a child? When they are 14? 15? Exactly the second they are 15? Or nano-second or is it on the pico-second? Any size justification can always be broken down into infinitly smaller peices, and the change from one state to another is never definite.

For example, if you remove the bolts that hold the wheel to a car, and the wheel comes off, but at another time you remove them, and the wheel stays on...can you always say for certain "If you unscrew the bolts the wheel will fall off?" No. So how can you say that when one becomes an adult they can now go to hell...different people at different times are at different levels of development...

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by Shrek
If you go back a few pages in this thread and start reading you will find the answer to that question.

I read the thread from the start before I began posting.

I recognise the position, but it seems so weak when everyone else has to sweat blood to make the grade, and how do you feel as an "uncontacted" member of heaven? Would you really want to be there? How do you feel as a christian, having to share heaven with people who neither know nor care about your god?

I'm sure these people have their own religion, what happens if they are intrinsically evil in their characters, do they get in simply because they were never exposed to the word of the christian god?

The comments in the thread don't even scratch the surface.

[Rower_CPU]

OK, here's a quickie on space-time and relativity:

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970610.html

There has been experimental evidence for the curvature of spacetime by a massive object since the early part of this century (1922), when observers set out to test the predictions of general relativity. During a solar eclipse, they realized, the light from stars in the same general area of the sky as the Sun are visible during the day. If light from these stars is affected by the curvature of spacetime due to the Sun's mass, then this would be measurable as a deflection (or a change in location) of the star's position on the sky. The stars closer to the position of the Sun in the sky would suffer a larger deflection; in general the deflection would be proportion to the stars distance from the Sun's location on the sky. This effect was observed for 15 stars during the solar eclipse of 1922 in Western Australia, and was interpreted as observational verification of the predictions of general relativity. General relativity predicts that spherical masses deform spacetime in much the same way a lead ball would deform the surface of a rubber sheet. It is this deformation that causes the planets to orbit the Sun, and the Moon to orbit the Earth. In fact, all orbital motion is the result of bodies being affected by the curvature of the spacetime in which they move.

Since that time, astronomers have observed other instances of the curvature of spacetime near massive objects. One example is the deflection of radio waves from quasars which are occulted by the Sun every year (such as 3C 279). Another is the growing collection of gravitational lenses. A gravitational lens occurs when the light from a very distant object (often a quasar) is bent by a closer massive object (such as a galaxy) into *multiple* images. Some very impressive images of gravitational lenses have been taken. See, for example the Astronomy Picture of the Day:

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap961215.html

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap970503.html

[Shrek]

Originally posted by iJon
good question, ive always wondered that myself. we talked about this at camp. i believe somewhre in the bible there is an age of accountability, but i cant swear on it, maybe someone can make me right or make me wrong.

After the Rapture, you can be rest assured that their will be no children in the world. Even the unborn will be raptured away. Probably only some older children and teenagers will remain, but the rest will all be gone.

NOW, Imagine that!!! A world without children! :eek:

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by Shrek
After the Rapture, you can be rest assured that their will be no children in the world. Even the unborn will be raptured away. Probably only some older children and teenagers will remain, but the rest will all be gone.

NOW, Imagine that!!! A world without children! :eek:

Now that is just garunteed to p**s everyone off:p

Imagine as a non-believer, you wake up to loud trumpets (apparently) and all your kids are gone!

Hmm, I see lawsuits ahead;)

[WinterMute]

Gents, its been fine, but it's 1:15am here in the UK, and I'm lecturing in the morning.

I'll look forward to this thread's development when I get back to the site tomorrow.:)

[Computer_Phreak]

Originally posted by Shrek
God is always seeking those who are not followers of Christ. He is always "knocking on your door." He is just waiting for you to "answer it." He is always "calling you on the phone." He is just waiting for you to "pick it up" and listen. [i]Ironically, Christianity is the only religion that teaches that God is always seeking the unsaved.[i]

Not to attack you or anything...

But don't ever say that any religion is the ONLY religion to do something.... There are many many many religions that you or I have never heard of, let alone know about, that may have these beliefs.

I hope to contribute to this thread, as I am a perfect specimen to experiment on... more about that later.

[Gus]

You guys are really making this interesting!

The Bible is not specific about ages Fukui. I'm sorry that I can't give you a quantatative answer, but the Bible mentions only that "children" are God's and that a man should try to be more "childlike" in his beliefs, which we take to mean more innocent. Basically, I cannot tell you when the differentiation is.

Winter, just hearing the mesaage of the Christians is not enough, you have to hear it and believe in it. As for what happens to those who have not heard and therfore cannot believe, the answer is much like the children question. While God does not specifically condemn those that have not heard, he doesn't exactly pardon them. The whole reason behind missionaries was to make sure that the Word of God WAS going to be heard by everybody. Now, I understand that some people have issues with missionaries and see them as a political force more than a religious force, but I believe that the people who actually went out, and still go out, into the world are doing it for spiritual reasons and not political ones. They honestly want to make sure that as many people as possible have the chance to hear the Word and make their decision. While many tribes in Africa have become Christian, many others have rejected the idea. Once again, a choice.

Regards,
Gus

[Gus]

Guys, I desperately want to continue this great discussion, but I have to finish studying for my comps. I will jump back in later. Everyone play nice now. :)


Regards,
Gus

[Potus]

Graduate of Bob Jones University

Co-founder of the Moral Majority
(fundraising letters speak agains humanist, homosexuals, and abortion)

Founder of Council for National Policy, American Coalition for Traditional Values

(Wife Beverly founded Concerned Women for America

Opposed to separation of Church and State; favors theocracy

anti-Semitic ("convert or die")

anti-Catholic

homophobic

opposed to arms control

anti-ecumencism

anti-choice

[Computer_Phreak]

Originally posted by Potus
Graduate of Bob Jones University

Co-founder of the Moral Majority
(fundraising letters speak agains humanist, homosexuals, and abortion)

Founder of Council for National Policy, American Coalition for Traditional Values

(Wife Beverly founded Concerned Women for America

Opposed to separation of Church and State; favors theocracy

anti-Semitic ("convert or die")

anti-Catholic

homophobic

opposed to arms control

anti-ecumencism

anti-choice

who is this referring to?

[iJon]

Originally posted by WinterMute
Now that is just garunteed to p**s everyone off:p

Imagine as a non-believer, you wake up to loud trumpets (apparently) and all your kids are gone!

Hmm, I see lawsuits ahead;)
its not to piss anyone off, its the truth. lawsuits.... please. who are you gonna sue, God, ha.

iJon

[Potus]

Originally posted by Computer_Phreak
who is this referring to?

Tim LaHaye

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by WinterMute
Now that is just garunteed to p**s everyone off:p

Imagine as a non-believer, you wake up to loud trumpets (apparently) and all your kids are gone!

Hmm, I see lawsuits ahead;) Somehow I find it hard to believe that lawyers aren't proof that the end of the world is coming.

Or at least be a major factor in the downfall of civilization.

[Computer_Phreak]

ok... so i read somewhere that in the near future computers may be powerful enough to render a virtual reality so realistic, people will not be able to differentiate it from the real world.

Chips would be implanted in your brain, taking over your nervous system and artificially reproducing all external stimulation to match that of the virtual reality.

Seems scary, and very unChristian like in its beliefs. In fact, its even possible that we are all in it right now!

Can we say, The Matrix?

[iJon]

Originally posted by Computer_Phreak
ok... so i read somewhere that in the near future computers may be powerful enough to render a virtual reality so realistic, people will not be able to differentiate it from the real world.

Chips would be implanted in your brain, taking over your nervous system and artificially reproducing all external stimulation to match that of the virtual reality.

Seems scary, and very unChristian like in its beliefs. In fact, its even possible that we are all in it right now!

Can we say, The Matrix?
im a christian but that sounds really fun. maybe you could turn it on and off. go to the beach real quick or something, lol.

iJon

[Shrek]

Originally posted by Potus
Graduate of Bob Jones University

Co-founder of the Moral Majority
(fundraising letters speak agains humanist, homosexuals, and abortion)

Founder of Council for National Policy, American Coalition for Traditional Values

(Wife Beverly founded Concerned Women for America

Opposed to separation of Church and State; favors theocracy

anti-Semitic ("convert or die")

anti-Catholic

homophobic

opposed to arms control

anti-ecumencism

anti-choice

Just where do you get your information, Potus? Can I have a link, please?

[Shrek]

Originally posted by iJon
im a christian but that sounds really fun. maybe you could turn it on and off. go to the beach real quick or something, lol.

Shame on you!











j/k

[Mr. Anderson]

Damn, I go away and someone starts bringing physics into this.

Gravity? ha! The best way to go about trying to explain that is looking at the other forces involved. There has been tons of work in the past century on Grand Unifying Theory or Unified Field Theory for physics that shows how magnetism, gravity and the weak and strong electro field are all related. A decent theory hasn't been developed yet.

here (http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/unified_field_theory.html) for an overview.

To me, once the GUT is proven is just further evidence of a higher power. All this complexity and its inter-relationship isn't all coincidence.

I don't fully understand it all - I'm not sure anyone truly does. But, for me, there is a bit of faith associated with this as well. Even though I can't see gravity, I know its there, tugging at me. Evidence for God is less tangible, but from my perspective, no less obvious. The wonder and awe I get from learning more about the universe just gives me more faith in the bigger picture. The size and complexity of the objects we are discovering on a regular basis is astounding. The age of the universe is mind numbing along with its size.

Ever see the deep field shot from Hubble. Thousands of galaxies....and God made man in his image? Don't know if I think that's the case. Given the number of planets out there, well, I think its selfish and egotistical to think we're alone. And when we do make contact, what then? What if it a highly evolved race that has a recorded history going back billions of years? All speculation, I know. But don't you think they'll have their own God? How does that fit into the big scheme of things? I know this is getting far from the topic, sorry, but for arguements sake, blanket statements (from previous posts) just don't cut it. We have to be willing to accept that our perceptions are biased, personal, and that we're just a small part of something much bigger.

D

[Rower_CPU]

Was my description OK, D, or would you change any parts?

I tried to make it as simple and straightforward as possible w/out getting too technical.

Has the theory changed much since the example I posted was first used?

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Was my description OK, D, or would you change any parts?

You were talking specifically about gravity, I was delving a bit deeper, it was fine. Curvature of space is a pretty interesting thing and very hard to grasp in 4D.

But here's a little mind exercise - imagine your at the north pole with two balls, one in each hand. And these balls won't hit the ground when dropped, but pass through the earth.

Now if you threw them both up in the air, in a parallel trajectory next to each other. If the kept on going to the center of the earth, the parallel lines would cross, and somewhere near the center of the Earth they would intersect and hit each other. Parallel lines intersecting? Can't happen unless you have curvature of space :D

D

[scem0]

Originally posted by Computer_Phreak
ok... so i read somewhere that in the near future computers may be powerful enough to render a virtual reality so realistic, people will not be able to differentiate it from the real world.

Chips would be implanted in your brain, taking over your nervous system and artificially reproducing all external stimulation to match that of the virtual reality.

Seems scary, and very unChristian like in its beliefs. In fact, its even possible that we are all in it right now!

Can we say, The Matrix?

I read an article (which I was directed to from a Matrix site
actually :)) which was very interesting. It was talking about how
likely we are of living in a virtual reality, much like that of the
matrix. The person writing it (it wasn't a 12 year old or anything,
he had a phd) estimated that there was a 25% chance that
we are living in a virtual reality.

[bcsimac]

Originally posted by scem0
Didn't god say after he flooded the world that he would never
punish us again, or something along those lines?

THe whole idea of rapture seems contradictory to 'God's
uncodional love'.

:(

God said that He would never destroy the earth or cut off life by flood.......He never said that He wouldn't judge the world or destroy it by other means.

Also I want to explain that God often uses water first and then fire.

God used the Flood to destroy the earth.......He promises in Revelation to destroy the earth by fire.

God judged mankinds sin on earth via the flood in Noah's day.......in revelations our works and deeds will be judged and tested by fire.

John the Baptist used water to baptize people......but Jesus said that believers will be baptized by the spirit with fire.....or in some translations like as if by fire.....basically same meaning........if you remember the disciples on Pentecost were filled and baptized by the Holy Spirit and the Spirit rested on them like flames of fire.

[Gus]

Duke, thank you for explaining in a better way what I was trying to say. Much better!

About the alien encounter thing... I actually have thought about that a lot, and I am stumped. Who knows, maybe we'll meet aliens, and they end up looking lke us. I know, seems far fetched, but who knows? Well, maybe those guys at Area 51 know...

Although, if you think about it, God said he made Man in his own image, but he doesn't say that he didn't create any other beings anywhere else in a different or same image. I know that he also created the plants, animals, etc. and they are not in his own image, but it is possible, however slim, that he created others elsewhere in his image, or perhaps just created them in another image. I guess we'll find out one day, but probably not before I'm already dead, in which case, hopefully I am in heaven and will know that answer. :)

Regards,
Gus

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by scem0
The person writing it estimated that there was a 25% chance that we are living in a virtual reality.

That would require a link.....


so this is going to be it? Come on folks, physics and God, how much more do you need ;)

D

[scem0]

The Matrix site I got it from was bought out by Warner Bro's :(.

I loved that site too. I might be able to find it w/o it though.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by dukestreet
so this is going to be it? Come on folks, physics and God, how much more do you need ;)

Only way I can relate physics to God is to tell unbelievers not to underestimate God. You see, some people think that the laws of physics bar the existence of God, but I say to them, "God invented the laws of physics, He is the laws of physics and has full control over the laws of physics, so He can get around the laws of physics as He pleases."

There, I just had to mention that. ;)

[Computer_Phreak]

Originally posted by scem0
I read an article (which I was directed to from a Matrix site
actually :)) which was very interesting. It was talking about how
likely we are of living in a virtual reality, much like that of the
matrix. The person writing it (it wasn't a 12 year old or anything,
he had a phd) estimated that there was a 25% chance that
we are living in a virtual reality.


Well, If the VR was realistic enough, there would be no way to tell :eek:

I really don't believe that, though.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Shrek
Only way I can relate physics to God is to tell unbelievers not to underestimate God. You see, some people think that the laws of physics bar the existence of God, but I say to them, "God invented the laws of physics, He is the laws of physics and has full control over the laws of physics, so He can get around the laws of physics as He pleases."

Ah, that's a bit trite. Although I generally would agree, God wouldn't need to 'get around' the laws of physics. There is so much room for doing anything, especially at a quantum level, that there is no need. And we don't fully understand it all either.

If you showed a Neanderthal a bic lighter he would think it was magic and defies what he know's as the 'laws of physics'.

D

[Computer_Phreak]

Personally, I think most religions (especially Christianity) were created for one of the following purposes:

1. To exert control over the followers of the religion (i.e. the Crusades, in which Christians were persuaded to fight a "holy war," in which they killed many non-Christians].

2. To make people do good and not bad

3. To comfort people and reasure them they are not alone and that they will live forever

[scem0]

This isn't the same article, but it is a good one:

http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=/articles/art0552.html

can't find the one I spoke of in my previous posts. :( :o

[DarkNovaMatter]

Wow! A thread on Life/Creation/The World that has lasted 6 pages without a all out flame war! Nice! Something to add- Rower have you heard of the Higgs Boson (I think I spelled it right)? A simple thing to call it is "graviton" and there has been many interesting developements in the feild of it. While I think that if you live your life as in kidness to others and basically doing a good life that your life would be worth whatever you believe is at the end. I think the learning about X religion and then not acting on it means your going to "hell" "rapture" is a little to convienant for a religion.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by DarkNovaMatter
Wow! A thread on Life/Creation/The World that has lasted 6 pages without a all out flame war!

I think were all just scared of having our accounts deleted, as the new policy states: "No warnings." :eek:

[scem0]

The idea of Hell and the Rapture still both seem contridictive of
what I have learned in church about God. He is supposed to
forgive people, not doom them... :( :o :)

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Computer_Phreak
3. To comfort people and reasure them they are not alone and that they will live forever

Taking a more fundamental approach on religion - even philosophical - where did religion come from?

People wanted answers, that's it. To life, the universe and everything. We're always going to be looking for the 'answer'.

When primative humans looked around and had absolutely no clue why the sun set, or the stars only shone at night, they needed to come up with something. Well, obviously the Gods did it all and the religions we have today are result of the refinement of the faiths we've carried along with us from the very beginning.

Its quite simplistic, again, I apologize. How we ended up with Christianity, Buddism, Islam, etc. isn't an easy question to answer. But by looking at the roots of all religions, for me at least, is a way to show how all things are related and that God is part of it all, in what ever form we choose to give him.

D

[Gus]

For anyone who knows any history at all, it is not disputable that the church in the middle ages and up through the protestant reformation was all about control and sociio-political issues. Yes, the crusades were a bloody and a horrible chapter in the history of the Christian church, but it is not the only religion to invoke the name of God or their gods in order to make political , economic, or social gains. Equally bloody and horrible were the now ridiculous wars between the Catholics and Protestants in Europe over religious dominance. Yes, people throughout the history of time havve invoked the names of their respective religions in order to rally "the people" around it. Earlier, someone mentioned something similar to this about being selfish and that being part of the reasons for conflicts. Many of these wars in the name of religion were for the gain of those in power only, and the people had no idea. Don't forget that in the Middle Ages, the average person could not read, or understand Latin, which Catholic masses were given in. In fact, the commoner was not even allowed to look at the altar during the church services-only clergy and royalty were worthy of this honor.

Christianity has changed in many ways and learned through big mistakes, but the fundamental beliefs have remained the same about reaching Heaven-the professed belief in Christ as the Son of God.

Regards,
Gus

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
The idea of Hell and the Rapture still both seem contridictive of
what I have learned in church about God. He is supposed to
forgive people, not doom them... :( :o :)

God does not take any pleasure in sending his children to eternal damnation or suddenly taking all the saints and innocents out of this world leaving the rest to experience His wrath, but sometimes the man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. ;)

[scem0]

Originally posted by Shrek
God does not take any pleasure in sending his children to eternal damnation or suddenly taking all the saints and innocents out of this world leaving the rest to experience His wrath, but sometimes the man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. ;)

Why does he have to do it? :confused:

[Gus]

Originally posted by scem0
The idea of Hell and the Rapture still both seem contridictive of
what I have learned in church about God. He is supposed to
forgive people, not doom them... :( :o :)

God does forgive anyone who asks for forgiveness. It is unconditional. You are not supposed to purposefully commit sins, but God knows that we are not perfect and that we will sin because we are not perfect. That is why He forgives those who ask. It is why he sent His Son to earth. If you profess belief in his Son, and ask for forgiveness, you will have it. It is the covenenant that he made with us. It is his promise to us. It is up to you which way you would like to choose: either his guaranteed Love and Forgiveness, or take the chance that billions of us have been wrong for 2000 years. ;p

Regards,
Gus

[Computer_Phreak]

Its been fun...

I must go to bed now as my mom is yelling.

Have no fear though, for I shall return!
(after soccer practice tomorrow:D _

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
Why does he have to do it? :confused:

Good question. Why don't ask him IF you get to heaven? :p

[iJon]

Originally posted by scem0
Why does he have to do it? :confused:
how much have the bible have you read?

iJon

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Shrek
God does not take any pleasure in sending his children to eternal damnation or suddenly taking all the saints and innocents out of this world leaving the rest to experience His wrath, but sometimes the man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. ;)

Again, this whole idea is based on faith alone and your blanket statements don't have an depth to back them up. You can continue repeating the words, but at some point you're going to have to think for yourself.

I was thinking on this earlier and realized that I have no true 'faith' in the written word. That's something someone has provided for me as a guide, but there is no real reason to belief that its is true or false.

My faith comes from what I've experienced, seen and felt. Its not simple, and its going to be something that's going to continue growing and changing as I get older.

D

[scem0]

Why did God let thousands of kids march to their death in
the Children's Crusade. :confused: :(. All these things seem evil
to me, not loving or caring. I don't want to get into the question
of 'why does evil exist' etc. But I want to know why all those
children who believed and trusted in God died. I want to know
why God would send people to hell if he has endless mercy.

[iJon]

Originally posted by scem0
I want to know
why God would send people to hell if he has endless mercy.
because they never accepted him.

iJon

[scem0]

Originally posted by iJon
how much have the bible have you read?

iJon

All of Genesis, and a little bit of some of the other books, but
I stopped reading when I quit believing. Why do you ask?

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
I want to know why God would send people to hell if he has endless mercy.

ENDLESS mercy? That's an overestimation of God.

[scem0]

Originally posted by iJon
because they never accepted him.

iJon

that doesn't add much credibility to the Bible which tells of a god
that forgives unconditionally.

[Gus]

Originally posted by scem0
Why does he have to do it? :confused:

Scemo, I understand your desire to have this question answered, but I'm afraid that I am not the one who can answer it for you. All of the answers I would give you would be based on my limited scope. I guess the best I could do is to say that God wants to know who is with Him. Who is on His side when the final battle against evil is to be fought. Revelations mentions a battle of the forces of Heaven and Hell before the 1000 years reign of Jesus. It is this battle in which the sides will be drawn. The battle is, of course, Armageddon.

Sorry that I can't be of more help with that particular question. Maybe Duke or someone else could help. Krossfyter would probably have a much more eloquent answer.

Regards,
Gus

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
forgives unconditionally.

Yet another overestimation.

[vniow]

Originally posted by iJon
because they never accepted him.

iJon

So because some people have different beliefs than what's stated in the Bible they're automatically condemed to hell?

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by scem0
that doesn't add much credibility to the Bible which tells of a god
that forgives unconditionally.

Ah, but here you are missing the point. You have to ask for the forgiveness, without asking, you don't get it.

I don't exacly believe this, for there are many individuals through the eons who have not been able to 'ask' for forgiveness so they can be accepted into Heaven. I'm thinking its more of the scare tactic laid down by the Catholic church at the start and its stuck around.

D

[scem0]

How kind of God......

Im just gunna kill everyone who isn't on my side.

I know I am saying that very generally, but it is true according to
y'all.

I thought Christians were supposed to help show 'the light' to
non-believers, not kill them. :eek: :(

[bcsimac]

Originally posted by Potus
Graduate of Bob Jones University

Co-founder of the Moral Majority
(fundraising letters speak agains humanist, homosexuals, and abortion)

Founder of Council for National Policy, American Coalition for Traditional Values

(Wife Beverly founded Concerned Women for America

Opposed to separation of Church and State; favors theocracy

anti-Semitic ("convert or die")

anti-Catholic

homophobic

opposed to arms control

anti-ecumencism

anti-choice

Although I don't always agree with Bob Jones University and see them as a major stumbling block for Christianity, I do believe that some from BJU have done some good for the Christian faith and are true Christians....just a little more verbal and forceful about their beliefs than other Christians would be.

Humanism is the antithesis of Christianity and that is why Tim Lahaye would speak against it. Humanism says that man is generally good and that their is no sin and no evil......the Bible makes it clear that man is born with Inherited depravity(sin nature or original sin) and that man is sinful in his innermost being.......humanism refuses to recognize that man is finite and limited.......man is seen as never making mistakes when we see everyday man making all kinds of mistakes and stupid-dumb things.......humanism of course denies a higher being and a god......this is totally the opposition of Christian faith and belief........humanism makes man his own judge of right and wrong and since there is no wrong.......man is always right.....in his own eyes......never mind what harm it may do to others.........in the Bible and in Christianity......God is judge of right and wrong.......He is standard of morality and perfection.......I applaud Tim Lahaye for standing up against humanism that is designed to put man up where he doesn't belong.....on a pedestal!

Homosexually is detestable to God as he declares in Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Romans. Homosexually is considered by God to be an act of sin......now I didn't say the person wasn't loved nor did I say his feelings are bad.......but committing the act of homosexually is sin. I have to be honest and say I have had friends or acquaintances who were homosexual. They asked me if I was quote "homophobic". I told them that I cared for them as a person with a spirit and a soul and that I cared for them as a person and would not treat them with less respect as any other person. I did however tell them my beliefs that I believe Christ supports which is love the sinner, but not the sin. Christ loved the sinners......he went to sinners houses and ate meals with sinners......when the sinner realized they needed him and asked to be saved........Christ told them to believe AND he told them to stop sinning.......to turn from their sin.......Does this mean he hated them or didn't love them......no! Does this mean he was quote "phobic" about these sinners?........no!

Abortion is murder plain and simple......God is the only one who can decide the time of death for a person......who is man to think he can decide or judge this for himself when he is so finite? People say it is tissue......well tissue is living and breathing.....it has living cells.....does these babies have life blood......oh they most certainly do......doesn't God say to protect the life blood of all?.......he most certainly does! The excuse that it is just tissue is the quote "pro-choice" way of avoiding the truth which is that the baby is living and has life blood and their excuse to avoid God's moral standard. I believe the only choice besides keeping the baby yourself is adoption......I am for choice......You can "choose" to abstain from sex and thereby not take the chance of getting pregnant.......You can "choose" to keep the baby.......or you can "choose" to give the baby away via adoption.........man can never "choose" to be judge, jury, and executioner of the time of a baby's life.......at least I mean this from the moral standard by which God sees things......I am not talking about what can actually be done physically. God gives us a choice to either obey him and respect his standard of morality or to disobey and rebel.......we do have a choice......so in a sense I am "pro-choice" in that I realize that man has the free will to "choose" to do what God says or to rebel against God and go his own way. If you "choose" to rebel against God, then you should be also deal with the consequences of that choice.....abortion is just man's attempt to avoid the consequences of those choices.

If you ask most protestant Christians, they would tell you that the Catholic church as really fallen from where it came from as far as doctrine, spirituality, and the loyality to the truth of the gospel of Christ. The Catholic church to most protestants does not represent the true universal church......nor does it properly represent the gospel of Jesus Christ.......nor does it speak for the Christian community in general.......in fact many fundamental Christians believe that the Catholic church is a cult........I won't go that far as I believe many Catholics are true believers and true followers of Christ......but the Catholic Church in general has accepted way too many Un-biblically based traditions and beliefs. This was because Charlemagne (not sure of sp?) was supposedly converted to Christianity around AD 300 and declared Christianity to be the official religion of Rome and the Roman Empire......this allowed for non-believers as well as false prophets to get in and cause havoc with true doctrine and true beliefs and allow "heathens" to introduce un-biblical traditions into the Catholic church.

[Gus]

Unconditional forgiveness? Well, it's not for just anyone. Once again, you must have professed your faith in God, and His Son Jesus as the saviour. it's not like everybbody is automatically "included". Everyone has the ability and the opportunity to take God up on his offer, but it's not just automatic.

Now, your question on the Chldren's Crusade brings up another religious topic: Is God controlling every aspect of our lives everyday, or did he create us, tell us the rules and the guidelines with a help manual, and then let us to our own devices? This is actually a very important question as to how you view God in your life as a believer.

Regards,
Gus

[Shrek]

Originally posted by vniow
So because some people have different beliefs than what's stated in the Bible they're automatically condemed to hell?

That's a very complicated matter, vniow. And we can only scratch the surface of this. But we can be rest assured that God is a fair God and will judge everyone fairly.

[scem0]

Originally posted by dukestreet
Ah, but here you are missing the point. You have to ask for the forgiveness, without asking, you don't get it.

I don't exacly believe this, for there are many individuals through the eons who have not been able to 'ask' for forgiveness so they can be accepted into Heaven. I'm thinking its more of the scare tactic laid down by the Catholic church at the start and its stuck around.

D

THe Catholic church has used many scare tactics throughout
history, so I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if you are correct.

If someone offended me, they don't have to ask for my
forgiveness. I forgive them without them asking... Does that
make me more forgiving than God?

I see many people saying 'No' after I click the submit button ;).

[scem0]

Originally posted by Shrek
That's a very complicated matter, vniow. And we can only scratch the surface of this. But we can be rest assured that God is a fair God and will judge everyone fairly.

fair to him might not be fair to me, V, or someone else.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
fair to him might not be fair to me, V, or someone else.

Oh, sure. No one will think it's fair to go to hell. Heck, life's not fair. :p

[Gus]

bcsimac, while I will agree and have mentioned some of the problems with the Catholic Church, I don't think it is the evil empire some imagine it to be. Does it have some problems? Yes, it does, but Catholics themselves are not necessarily responsible for the problems, but the flawed humans running it. Don't forget either that for hundreds of years, the Catholics were the only Christian game in town. People recognized the problems in the church and tried to correct them, one of whom was Martin Luther. This is something we could debate for weeks though, so I will just respectfully back awat from this part of the discussion.

Good Night all!

Regards,
Gus

[scem0]

Originally posted by Shrek
Oh, sure. No one will think it's fair to go to hell. Heck, life's not fair. :p

If I murdered someone, I would think sending me to Hell could be
justified. BUt if I flushed a spider down the toilet and went to
hell along with all the other spider-flushers, I would be pissed.
This all depends on what Hell is, or if there is a Hell at all, though.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
If I murdered someone, I would think sending me to Hell could be
justified. BUt if I flushed a spider down the toilet and went to
hell along with all the other spider-flushers, I would be pissed.
This all depends on what Hell is, or if there is a Hell at all, though.

I don't think flushing spiders down the toilet is God's idea of sin, though, he does wish for man to take care of his planet. Personally, I wouldn't flush a spider down the toilet 'just because.' You know, God has ways of punishing man here on earth, too. Sacrificing a spider to Satan would be a BIG no no! :eek:

[Potus]

Originally posted by bcsimac
Although I don't always agree with Bob Jones University and see them as a major stumbling block for Christianity...

Humanism is the antithesis of Christianity and that is why Tim Lahaye would speak against it. Humanism says that man is generally good and that their is no sin and no evil......the Bible makes it clear that man is born with Inherited depravity(sin nature or original sin) and that man is sinful in his innermost being.......humanism refuses to recognize that man is finite and limited...

Homosexually is detestable to God as he declares in Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Romans. Homosexually is considered by God to be an act of sin......now I didn't say the person wasn't loved nor did I say his feelings are bad...

Abortion is murder plain and simple...

If you ask most protestant Christians, they would tell you that the Catholic church as really fallen from where it came from as far as doctrine, spirituality, and the loyality to the truth of the gospel of Christ. The Catholic church to most protestants does not represent the true universal church......nor does it properly represent the gospel of Jesus Christ.......nor does it speak for the Christian community in general.......in fact many fundamental Christians believe that the Catholic church is a cult...

If you are going to cast aspersions on other groups, you might get your facts right; for example, you are probably referring to Constantine. Nevertheless, you proved my point about Tim Lahaye and those who share his attitudes of bigotry, intolerance, homophobia, and misogyny.

[scem0]

How would one know what God's idea of sin is?

[runningman]

Wow to keep up with this thread I'll have to take a vacation. I leave for 4 hours and there are 3 pages of material.
When people talk about science and religion they always state that science has proof and religion doesn't. That for the most part is true. But then you talk about things like gravity and you start talking about quarks and attraction fields and string theory and everyone will state that it exists they think. But there is a lot of faith in the rules that they have discovered that they will work. Which is similar to religion. You have faith. The age old question do you love your wife, child parent etc. ? Then prove it. It becomes a beleif or a faith.
We have to remember rules or ever changing. Remember when classical mechanics was the end all and then along came quantum and now I just don't understand it make me head hurt.
I put this qoute on the qoute page but thought some would like it.
A dead atheist is someone dressed up with no place to go.
No bait just thought the imagery was striking

[FatTony]

I think Fukui thouched on it earlier and I would like to hear some thoughts on this hypothetical scenario:

Let's say there are two remote cultures not connected in any way. One is peaceful and loving, the other is violent and murderous. Christian missionaries go to the peaceful culture and deliver their message. The peaceful culture says "no thank you" and continues with their peacefule and loving ways. The missionaries then go to the violent culture to delver their message and are murdered before having the chance. The violent and murderous culture lives the rest of their lives never hearing of God's will.

Who goes where when they die?

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
How would one know what God's idea of sin is?

Uh, like. Read the Bible. After all, you've admitted that you only read part of it so far and stopped when you stopped believing. Hey, it'll be good for you. Even many non-believers have read the Bible from cover to cover. You should do it!

[scem0]

you can test your faith in science.

Testing your faith in God is a totally different story.

[scem0]

Originally posted by Shrek
Uh, like. Read the Bible. After all, you've admitted that you only read part of it so far and stopped when you stopped believing. Hey, it'll be good for you. Even many non-believers have read the Bible from cover to cover. You should do it!

Boring. :rolleyes: ;). I might some day, but when people make claims
and don't back them up it annoys me.

Just because something is in the Bible doesn't make it true.

[runningman]

Oh I forgot in regards to not believing because of a bad preacher. God delivers the word it is up to the person to accept it. This is not about talking people into believing it's about informing people of God and Jesus and hoping that they will accept their love. Similar to this page, their are a lot of opinions all differing some better than others(of course I'm one of the others) and it's up to each individual to accept the argument they believe in.
The problem that one can run into is applying your own logic on God(if you chose to believe in one). Now by saying you believe in a god any god of your chosing you are admitting that there is a higher being than you that functions at a level that we can not even fathom. Our logic would not apply no different than your 2 year olds logic why it's okay to only have chocolate milk and gold fish crackers.
I respect the argument of Fu I use to have the same one but realized that if I truly believe there is no way that I am going to understand and that I can chose to accept the faith and the love or I can chose to decline it no matter who the provider of information is. Just like when I was doing my taxes I had no idea what I was doing I could chose to accept the end result and realize that uncle sam got more of my money than I did or I could decline it either way the man got paid.:cool:

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
Boring. :rolleyes: ;). I might some day, but when people make claims
and don't back them up it annoys me.

Just because something is in the Bible doesn't make it true.

Well, you may just come to faith in God if you do, but you may not. But at least you will learn a lot about love and justice as well as history; that's just the thing that you don't seem to understand. That's the whole point in it! :D

[runningman]

Originally posted by scem0
Boring. :rolleyes: ;). I might some day, but when people make claims
and don't back them up it annoys me.

Just because something is in the Bible doesn't make it true.
Agreed but how do you test your faith in science.
Also not everything you read in science is true. The world was flat, the moon was cheese:D , the earth was the center of the earth, man will never fly, man will never be in space, man will never land on the moon, windows is the ultimate operating system:D , pamela lee is all natural.

[iJon]

Originally posted by scem0
All of Genesis, and a little bit of some of the other books, but
I stopped reading when I quit believing. Why do you ask?
so you are arguing on a subject which you have barely studied. now im not gonna say i have read all the bible because i havent, but dont you think a little more knowledge would be needed to put down the bible.

iJon

[scem0]

I guess it would benifit me, but not as much as reading a book
of similar length on philosophy, history, or something else like
that. :)

[Shrek]

One other thing, Scem0. To make the Bible more interesting you don't have to read it in chronological order. I'd recommend starting with the New Testament and read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John first. Ask your pastor for some recommendations on what order you should read it in. Tell him that you wanna to get to the good stuff first and then touch up on the rest later. It'll make it more interesting and fun! :D

[iJon]

Originally posted by scem0
I guess it would benifit me, but not as much as reading a book
of similar length on philosophy, history, or something else like
that. :)
i kind of think of the situation like my pc friends who used a powermac 7600 with 8.6 and played with it for 5 minutes and said i give up. but i do hope enlightment will come your way.

iJon

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
I guess it would benifit me, but not as much as reading a book
of similar length on philosophy, history, or something else like
that. :)

Oh, but scem0! The Bible is just FULL of philosophy and history! It is the best book on philosophy and history that you'll ever read, hands down! :D

[scem0]

except the Bible is never upgraded, and new, better books come
out all the time. If I must use a computer analogy. ;)

[scem0]

Originally posted by Shrek
Oh, but scem0! The Bible is just FULL of philosophy and history! It is the best book on philosophy and history that you'll ever read, hands down! :D

I think a philosophy book would be better for philosophy and
a history book would be better for history :):D.

[Potus]

Originally posted by scem0
I guess it would benifit me, but not as much as reading a book
of similar length on philosophy, history, or something else like
that. :)

Good point. It's important to read widely and thoughtfully and to concetrate on any one book would strike me as a waste of time.

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
except the Bible is never upgraded, and new, better books come
out all the time. If I must use a computer analogy. ;)

New and better? Bah! They'll never be as good as the Bible no matter what. The Bible is greatest book ever written.

One other thing I'd recommend is getting a study bible in an upgraded version like NIV or NKJV. Many people think that the Bible is boring because they can't understand it. I have a study bible that has in it what I like to call "dummy notes." :D

[vniow]

Originally posted by Shrek
Oh, but scem0! The Bible is just FULL of philosophy and history! It is the best book on philosophy and history that you'll ever read, hands down! :D

I have to second this.

On top of all that it's full of myth and poetry, yum.

[scem0]

how can you say that the Bible is the best book ever written?

Have you read every book? DO you know the future? Well, it
would be pretty cool if you did, but I doubt you have read every
book, or can read the future. ;)

[iJon]

Originally posted by scem0
except the Bible is never upgraded, and new, better books come
out all the time. If I must use a computer analogy. ;)
may i ask why it has to be upgraded? its not like you read the first version anyways.

iJon

[Shrek]

Originally posted by scem0
how can you say that the Bible is the best book ever written?

Have you read every book? DO you know the future? Well, it
would be pretty cool if you did, but I doubt you have read every
book, or can read the future. ;)

Scem0, no offense, but you're being really stubborn. If you're not gonna listen, then just say it, so I can quit wasting my time with you and go to bed. Otherwise, I wish you an exciting read!

[iJon]

Originally posted by scem0
how can you say that the Bible is the best book ever written?

Have you read every book? DO you know the future? Well, it
would be pretty cool if you did, but I doubt you have read every
book, or can read the future. ;) \
he can say it for the same reason you dont like the bible and havent read all of it.

iJon

[Potus]

The "historicity" of the bible is questionable althought it certainly contains more reliable narratives than either the Koran or the Book of Mormon.

[scem0]

okay this computer analogy is starting to make little sense :).

I'm not saying it HAS to. I'm just saying that there are a lot of
modern books concerning the same things (mainly philosophy
books) which most probably would benefit me more to read.

I actually am reading philosophy for dummies (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764551531/104-7063724-3288744?vi=glance) btw. :D:D

[scem0]

Originally posted by Potus
The "historicity" of the bible is questionable althought it certainly contains more reliable narratives than either the Koran or the Book of Mormon.

it also has things which have been proven false. So, it is a pretty
good history source, but I wouldn't call it the BEST, or flawless.

[Potus]

Originally posted by scem0
it also has things which have been proven false. So, it is a pretty
good history source, but I wouldn't call it the BEST, or flawless.

True.

[scem0]

Originally posted by Shrek
Scem0, no offense, but you're being really stubborn. If you're not gonna listen, then just say it, so I can quit wasting my time with you and go to bed. Otherwise, I wish you an exciting read!

I am an increadibly stubborn person. Sorry :(.

he can say it for the same reason you dont like the bible and havent read all of it.

Yes, that is true. BUt I never said that the Bible wasn't the best
source of history. I just said that I didn't think it was. I think that
Shrek should have said that 'IMO the Bible is the best source of
philosophy and history' instead of just saying it was.:)

[iJon]

Originally posted by scem0
it also has things which have been proven false. So, it is a pretty
good history source, but I wouldn't call it the BEST, or flawless.
not that i am disagreeing with you but im curious to know what has been proven wrong, completly off the subject.

iJon

[cartier]

I am definitely a Christian. You have got to love Jesus. His first miricle in the Bible was to turn water to wine! That shows how important alcohol was to Him. He didn't save a sick man or raise the dead first...he made wine for a wedding party because the booze had run out.

[Shrek]

C'mon scem0! Just tell me if you're gonna listen to me or not. I'm waiting on you to go to bed. If you have to, just send me a PM.

EDIT: Uh, nevermind. I am going to bed. Nite.

[Potus]

Originally posted by iJon
not that i am disagreeing with you but im curious to know what has been proven wrong, completly off the subject.

iJon

The sun stood still?

[iJon]

Originally posted by Potus
The sun stood still?
thanks, this is all a learning experience, ill have to look that up and read on it, thanks.

iJon

[scem0]

I'm listening to you, but I just don't accept all that you claim.

lol cartier.

iJon-
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science.html

I am going to bed too, so goodnight

[iJon]

Originally posted by Potus
The sun stood still?
doesnt the sun stand still ,and we just revolve around it? im no science major so get to mad at me if i sound stupid (although it probably doesnt take a science major ot figure this out)

iJon

[jelloshotsrule]

i can't claim to have read each and every post all the way to this point. but i read/skimmed most.

i may have to double post just to keep my thought clear..

1. i'm catholic. i live by myself (at college) and continue to practice. i go to weekly mass and the occasionaly daily mass.

2. i'm somewhat 'liberal'. i believe in gay rights. and i admit i have a hard time knowing what to believe about homosexuality in terms of sin. i certainly do not think that gay people are sinners. i admit i'm not clear on how i feel about it. but i know that everyone should be loved. and i love em. anyhoo. i believe that catholicism, and even christianity are not the only way to "get to heaven". and i also see the purpose of living like jesus not so much as being a means to an end, but because that is how we SHOULD live. kinda like what you said rower.. i think that people who try to live a good life, whether muslim, christian, jewish, agnostic, atheist, are judged by their actions, not their words. on that note, i am struck by something my uncle once told me as to why he is no longer catholic, despite growing up in a very strong catholic family (10 kids!!!). he had been at church as a kid, and his dad (my grandfather), was driving them out of the parking lot one day after mass. and apparently he cut someone off, or whatever... the person yelled at him and cursed and whatever. right after mass this is.

it is precisely this type of talking (going to mass, doing the routine) but not doing (living a life of compassion) that makes me feel that calling yourself a christian is not even close to enough.

3. the catholic church is not representative of the entirety of christianity??? of course it's not. that's why there are separate denominations. i personally disagree with much of the fundamentalist beliefs that you have to know jesus before you even have a chance to be saved. i think that knowing jesus is great, but i don't think anyone truly knows him until they live in his footsteps. likewise, whether or not they declare it, i feel like non-christians that live like jesus, know jesus as a result....

4. protus- we agree on the death penalty. and i love your big words. i just want to mention that most pro life people (or anti choice as you call it) are not pro life because they don't want women to have a choice. or because they think men should rule the women and thus they want to take womens' rights from them. but rather, it is a simple (yet ridiculously complex) difference of opinion on when life begins. i personally feel that anything other than conception is at best a slippery slope (is it when the arm comes out? is it when the head comes out? is it 2 months of pregnancy? 4? 6?). and also i feel that there is a spiritual/soul element that comes at conception. it is this reason that i am against abortion, not because of some desire to weaken the woman.

and i feel that while the catholic church on the whole might not be progressing as far as abortion/pregnancy/etc, there are some great, insightful priests out there that talk about things in a very open minded way. for instance, it's easy to idealize everything. to say, "abstain from sex" and then, no need for condoms, no need for abortions, etc. but that's not realistic, and some priests (and catholics, etc) realize this. also, morality is oftentimes very conditional. for instance, abortion for rape victims, etc. and as such, i feel there is no black and white. and i would never look at a rape victim and tell her, you must have that child... i would support her and hope that she would find the strength to have the child and maybe give it up for adoption, but i certainly would not condemn her if she chose not too, nor do i think god would.

i think that's all i wanted to say... and that i think god is a merciful, loving god with the utmost compassion. he became man and therefore knows the weakness of man. he feels compassion for those of us (all) with that weakness.

peace

ps. scem. if you ever feel the pull to read the bible, do it. don't worry about the hassle you're getting. the fact is, if you read it begrudgingly anyways, it won't matter much. do it on your own if you feel the desire, but beyond that, just keep asking questions. in my opinion, they will eventually lead to god. :)

[Gus]

While there have been poetic instances in the Bible that people have "debunked", there are, as someone has already pointed out as many scientific theories that have been proven to be junk too. If we want to just just narrow this down to a dunking session, this thread will be 1000 pages long and contain thousands of debunks on both sides because we will nitpick every little thing. Yes, there are discrepencies in the Bible-how did Moses and others live to be hundreds of years old? It' sall relative to the poetic tendencies of the Bible, and the world and time much of it was written in (speaking of the Old Testament where a lot of these "problems" appear). No one actually knows how long God took to create the universe. How long is a day to God? It is a poetic way of describing the creation of the universe. These are definitely interesting questions, but do not make the Bible a less important document. If you think it is boring scem0, try reading the Psalms. Most people find something in Psalms that they like. Or maybe Revelation. It can be hard to understand some of the things in there, but it is a very vivid and action-packed story--the stuff hollywood likes to make movies about.

Regards,
Gus

[vniow]

Originally posted by iJon
doesnt the sun stand still ,and we just revolve around it? im no science major so get to mad at me if i sound stupid (although it probably doesnt take a science major ot figure this out)

iJon

I think it rotates along its own mini-orbit but I may be wrong.

jello: 10 kids? Damn.

That's how many were in my dad's family, I couldn't imagine growing up with 9 other siblings.http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=251718

[jelloshotsrule]

indeed. my mom was the 3rd of the 10... so i have a lot of cousins and ****e.

[Gus]

jello, as a long-time reader of your posts, I appreciate your thoughts, but I must respectfully disagree with you on one point. The Bible is clear that the only way to Heaven and God is through Jesus. Good deeds should be the foundation of a Christian's life, but belief in Jesus is the only way to salvation. I know it sounds cruel and hard and excluding, but these are not my words, but God's.

I have not quoted scripture through this whole debate, so please read this before getting on me.

He does not mince words and it is mentioned in different ways in different parts of the Bible, not the least of which is John 3:16-18 which says, "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

This is as clear as it gets.

Regards,
Gus

[Fukui]

Let's say there are two remote cultures not connected in any way. One is peaceful and loving, the other is violent and murderous. Christian missionaries go to the peaceful culture and deliver their message. The peaceful culture says "no thank you" and continues with their peaceful and loving ways. The missionaries then go to the violent culture to delver their message and are murdered before having the chance. The violent and murderous culture lives the rest of their lives never hearing of God's will.

Who goes where when they die?
Yes, also, what happens when buddhists hear the story of Jesus? They usually say he must have been another Buddha after hearing it...so do they go to heaven?? They believe it happened...

To be honest, I got a lot more enlightenment out of a 20 page buddhist pamphlet than the the whole bible. (this may be just me...:()
The bible is too weighed-down with religious zealotry (Israel chosen above all other groups), and the part where Jesus comes is cut way too short IMHO....

All I can say on this subject is that all I know is that I do not know. Accepting this makes everything easy. If God exists I am very happy, but until I die, I probably won't know. Without the weight caused by trying to understand things that we cannot comprehend, I can face the world without worry, and if the universe is empty, I have nothing to fear. What is, is. I am at peace. Some people may face existential dilemmas, and religion usually fills this space, but I feel that it is most likely a fabrication, and buddhists never have the existential problem because they never bother to ask in the first place!!

Chiao

[scem0]

To clear up the sun thing:
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/astronomy/gifs/labelsolarsystemanswers.GIF

I have heard of the sun thing too. Something important happened
and then the sun stopped by the will of God. It is what made
people believe that the sun rotated around the earth (As did
the other planets).

[iJon]

Originally posted by vniow
I think it rotates along its own mini-orbit but I may be wrong.

jello: 10 kids? Damn.

That's how many were in my dad's family, I couldn't imagine growing up with 9 other siblings.http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=251718
ah well i went and read the verse and i was mis understanding what he was pointing out. i now realize what he was trying to say.

iJon

[scem0]

Originally posted by Fukui

Yes, also, what happens when buddhists hear the story of Jesus? They usually say he must have been another Buddha after hearing it...so do they go to heaven?? They believe it happened...

To be honest, I got a lot more enlightenment out of a 20 page buddhist pamphlet than the the whole bible. (this may be just me...:()
The bible is too weighed-down with religious zealotry (Israel chosen above all other groups), and the part where Jesus comes is cut way too short IMHO....

All I can say on this subject is that all I know is that I do not know. Accepting this makes everything easy. If God exists I am very happy, but until I die, I probably won't know. Without the weight caused by trying to understand things that we cannot comprehend, I can face the world without worry, and if the universe is empty, I have nothing to fear. What is, is. I am at peace. Some people may face existential dilemmas, and religion usually fills this space, but I feel that it is most likely a fabrication, and buddhists never have the existential problem because they never bother to ask in the first place!!

Chiao

Wow! I agree with someone! :D:)

I like when religions admit that the origin existance will, and can
never be known. I like when a religion admits that some
questions have no answers, and don't give me any of that
'you can find your answers through God' crap. :rolleyes: :(

[Fukui]

I like when religions admit that the origin existence will, and can
never be known. I like when a religion admits that some
questions have no answers, and don't give me any of that
'you can find your answers through God' crap.
Well, who knows, perhaps we can, but the point is, that as a Buddhist, you never discount something just because it doesn't feel good, if something is correct, it is correct, when it is proven otherwise, then it is proven otherwise, if there is no answer, then, at least for now, there is no answer.

To be REALLY to the point, as a Buddhist, you don't blind yourself with unproven ideas, or things that seem illogical. You become silent so that in your own silence, you may be able to hear.

Everyone lives their lives like they are in a big pool of water splashing around and making a big mess, it may be fun for a while, but once you get tired, you want to find the ground under the water so you can stand up and get out...only until you stop splashing and let the water become calm and still can you then see where the bottom is shallow enough to put your feet down and rest...

[kylos]

Wow. I barely got through all that.

Ok, now to the issues.

The Bible says the sun stood still during a battle for a whole day (in the book of Joshua). If you question this by saying that the earth rotates about the sun so it would be scientifically inaccurate since such behavior could not generate another day, then I would point out that we still refer to certain stages in the earth's rotation as sunrise and sunset. It is simply terminology based on an earthly reference point. If you don't believe in the miraculous, well then we can bring that up as well.:D

Some things to realize about God. If you say that he exists and that he created everything, it would seem that by his sheer superiority his ways and reasons would be far beyond human comprehension. So when you ask about those never specifically given an opportunity to believe, or maybe those given an opportunity in a poor method, you must realize that God has his own answers. He doesn't rule by democracy or public opinion. Every aspect or decision of God is not and does not have to be revealed to humans.

On to morality. Many people base their opinion of God on their own morality (what they believe is right and acceptable). That just doesn't work. If God is supreme, he doesn't have to follow your code. After all, where does your code of conduct receive validation? God's laws are validated because he started it all after all. (If you're interested in why I believe God exists (not because the Bible tells me so) I'll try to explain, but that could take some room). So when you ask about sending people to hell etc., it may seem harsh, but when you check God's code (found in the Bible) you'll see his reasons.

Origins. Ah, here many Christians are called ignorant because they believe the account in the Bible. However, after examining evolution closely, it becomes apparent that the data has been fitted to the belief. The fossil record: Mount Saint Helens, after its eruption in 1980 formed an impressive example of rapid stratification greatly speeding up the believed length of time required for such fossil layers to form. According to the Bible, when the Flood occurred, the fountains of the deep broke open, providing the geothermal violence necessary to overwhelm living creatures and bury them alive. I could provide more evidence and many stronger arguments on this subject, quoting from extensively researched projects and brilliant scientists. Most people will never hear such things though, since their textbooks will use blatantly falsified evidence such as the peppered moth in G.B. which 'evolved' by changing their color to blend in with trees blackened by soot. (Dead moths were glued to trees since they didn't naturally rest on the trees, the best that can be assumed is a micro-evolutionary change based primarily on genetic strains). There is so much of this sort of info available if you want to pursue it.

Accuracy of the Bible. Check any reputable scholar and you'll find out that for a historical document from that far back, the Bible is the most well recorded. I could keep going here, but I've forgetten so many of the discussions and need my sleep, so I'll pause here. Some books that deal with a lot of questions posed in this thread are "The Case for Faith" and "The Case for Christ", both by Lee Strobel, a former investigative journalist from Chicago, who decided to give Christianity a fair trial.

[scem0]

The Bible is an accurate source of history, but there
are many fallacies (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=biblical+fallacies&btnG=Google+Search) and contradictions (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=biblical+contradictions&btnG=Google+Search).

[Gus]

Buddhists, without the explicit belief in Jesus as the Son of God, are in the same boat as the non-believers. I know that this seems to be a hard thing to accept to non-believers, but it is quite clear.

scem0 and Fukui, I see that i will not be able to change any of your thoughts on these topics, but I implore you to rethink this issue at annother point in your life. MMy intention with koining this discussion a whle back was not to convert anyone or to judge them, but to try and answer the questions that were belong asked to the best of my knowledge.

Please, just read this last quote that I found:

In the next chapter Nebuchadnezzar sets up a gold statue on the plain of Dura. On the surface this seems to be only the foolish gesture of a vain monarch who insists that the statue be worshiped as a symbol of the unity of the empire. However, when the story is read with the vision of the statue of chapter 2 in view, one realizes that the later episode actually shows Nebuchadnezzar rebelling against God's decree. God had said, "Your kingdom will be succeeded by other kingdoms, kingdoms of silver, brass and iron." Nebuchadnezzar replied, "No, my kingdom will endure; it will always be glorious--I will create a statue of which not only the head will be of gold, but the shoulders, thighs and legs also. It will all be of gold, for it will represent me and my descendants forever." This personal involvement with the statue explains the king's violent reaction when the three Jewish men refused to bow down to it.

It also explains the violent reaction of the secular mind to Christian claims today. It is not just a question of the Christian God versus other gods, each one presumably thinking that his or her god is the true one. It is the rebellion of man against God, period. God is He to whom we are responsible. But fallen men and women do not want to be responsible to anyone. They want to rule themselves. They want to exclude God from His own universe.

Maybe someone else would be better suited for talking to you guys, so please do not make any final decisions based on my knowledge, or lack thereof.

Regards,
Gus

[scem0]

No descisions of mine are final.

And I am not excluding the creator of the universe he made, I am just
acknowledging that it doesn't have to be God (but it could be) that
created me, and everyone else.

[Rower_CPU]

Everything in the entire universe is moving.

Our solar system is in an arm of the Milky Way galaxy, which is spinning. Our entire galaxy is moving through the universe as well.

Nothing can be said to be "still", except for maybe the central point of the "Big Bang", but even that theory is under scrutiny these days.

[scem0]

but within our solar system the sun stays still.

It is like me sitting in my chair right now. I am moving, techincally,
because i am on the earth which is rotating around the sun, but
I am still. The same goes for the sun.

[Fukui]

Buddhists, without the explicit belief in Jesus as the Son of God, are in the same boat as the non-believers. I know that this seems to be a hard thing to accept to non-believers, but it is quite clear.

scem0 and Fukui, I see that i will not be able to change any of your thoughts on these topics, but I implore you to rethink this issue at another point in your life. MMy intention with coining this discussion a while back was not to convert anyone or to judge them, but to try and answer the questions that were belong asked to the best of my knowledge.


Don't worry, I don't think that anyone here tried to offend someone, or force another belief, we are simply trying to help one another, and through discussion, we do this, it is commendable that we want to help each other and not attack. I wish that other people around the world would be this way, we could do so much!!

It also explains the violent reaction of the secular mind to Christian claims today.
I think I have seen far more violent reactions from religious infighting/wars than between religious people and secular people...

I am not denying that God, in any form does not exist, nor do I rebel against the idea of God, if I "rule" my self, and I come to be a compassionate person who seeks the truth without bias, I should not be prejudice against it or for it. If we were not to rule ourselves, then why do we have free will? With our free will, we -can- see the truth. We may find God yet. The point is, as a Buddhist, we must always remain open minded.:)

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by scem0
but within our solar system the sun stays still.

It is like me sitting in my chair right now. I am moving, techincally,
because i am on the earth which is rotating around the sun, but
I am still. The same goes for the sun.

In relation to the objects within your room, and on the surface of the Earth, yes, you are still.

In relation to the universe, everything is moving, all the time.

[scem0]

there is a term for that. I forgot what it is called.

Depending on what is your 'background' determines if something
is in motion or not. I won't be able to sleep now, because Im
goingto try to think of that all night. :o ;) :)

[Potus]

Originally posted by Kyle?
Wow. I barely got through all that.

Ok, now to the issues.

The Bible says the sun stood still during a battle for a whole day (in the book of Joshua). If you question this by saying that the earth rotates about the sun so it would be scientifically inaccurate since such behavior could not generate another day, then I would point out that we still refer to certain stages in the earth's rotation as sunrise and sunset. It is simply terminology based on an earthly reference point. If you don't believe in the miraculous, well then we can bring that up as well.:D

Some things to realize about God. If you say that he exists and that he created everything, it would seem that by his sheer superiority his ways and reasons would be far beyond human comprehension. So when you ask about those never specifically given an opportunity to believe, or maybe those given an opportunity in a poor method, you must realize that God has his own answers. He doesn't rule by democracy or public opinion. Every aspect or decision of God is not and does not have to be revealed to humans.

On to morality. Many people base their opinion of God on their own morality (what they believe is right and acceptable). That just doesn't work. If God is supreme, he doesn't have to follow your code. After all, where does your code of conduct receive validation? God's laws are validated because he started it all after all. (If you're interested in why I believe God exists (not because the Bible tells me so) I'll try to explain, but that could take some room). So when you ask about sending people to hell etc., it may seem harsh, but when you check God's code (found in the Bible) you'll see his reasons.

Origins. Ah, here many Christians are called ignorant because they believe the account in the Bible. However, after examining evolution closely, it becomes apparent that the data has been fitted to the belief. The fossil record: Mount Saint Helens, after its eruption in 1980 formed an impressive example of rapid stratification greatly speeding up the believed length of time required for such fossil layers to form. According to the Bible, when the Flood occurred, the fountains of the deep broke open, providing the geothermal violence necessary to overwhelm living creatures and bury them alive. I could provide more evidence and many stronger arguments on this subject, quoting from extensively researched projects and brilliant scientists. Most people will never hear such things though, since their textbooks will use blatantly falsified evidence such as the peppered moth in G.B. which 'evolved' by changing their color to blend in with trees blackened by soot. (Dead moths were glued to trees since they didn't naturally rest on the trees, the best that can be assumed is a micro-evolutionary change based primarily on genetic strains). There is so much of this sort of info available if you want to pursue it.

Accuracy of the Bible. Check any reputable scholar and you'll find out that for a historical document from that far back, the Bible is the most well recorded. I could keep going here, but I've forgetten so many of the discussions and need my sleep, so I'll pause here. Some books that deal with a lot of questions posed in this thread are "The Case for Faith" and "The Case for Christ", both by Lee Strobel, a former investigative journalist from Chicago, who decided to give Christianity a fair trial.

This is a joke, right? Although, I agree that Kettlewell's photographs were fraudulent, so what?

[WinterMute]

I'm back and I love this thread, I'm going to take some time to think about some stuff so I'll catch up with you all later today (tonight my time), one thing, if god is truly omnipotent, how can we ever overestimate him or his works?

He can do as he wishes and we are left to deal with the consequences, condemning those who do not choose him to everlasting torment seems petty and petulant. If we are subject to a petulant god then we are in deep *****, a fair and loving god at least gives you a chance to make the grade.

This brings me to Job, he got royally scr**ed by his god, didn't he? The promise was made and broken, I've heard it described as a destruction test. Please note, it's been a long time since I read the book of Job, and I may be confusing elements of it with Heinliens's book "Job, a Comedy of Justice"

Any thoughts? Feel free to ignore/twist/amend as you see fit;)

[kylos]

Originally posted by scem0
there is a term for that. I forgot what it is called.

Depending on what is your 'background' determines if something
is in motion or not. I won't be able to sleep now, because Im
goingto try to think of that all night. :o ;) :)

I mentioned that in my post. It's called inertial reference frame.

Potus, what do you find to be a joke? 'Cuz I'm willing to discuss it point by point if you want. (I'll be at work today, but back on at night).

[hvfsl]

There seems to be a lot of people saying that they prefer a religon that does not have all the answers, well how stupid is that. If there was a devine force that created everything, he/she would know what was created and how it worked. That devine force would have to be pretty stupid to create something and not now how it worked, that is my problem with many eastern religons.

Its like Apple creating a computer without understanding how electronics work, it just does not make sense.

[runningman]

Originally posted by hvfsl
There seems to be a lot of people saying that they prefer a religon that does not have all the answers, well how stupid is that. If there was a devine force that created everything, he/she would know what was created and how it worked. That devine force would have to be pretty stupid to create something and not now how it worked, that is my problem with many eastern religons.

Its like Apple creating a computer without understanding how electronics work, it just does not make sense.
But do they know how electronics work or are they operating on theory. As you get to the subatomic level they aren't sure what happens when they get to the macro level they can predict what happens. But it is not a guarantee. So as before people in life are operating on faith that the rules will con't to apply

[scem0]

Originally posted by Kyle?
I mentioned that in my post. It's called inertial reference frame.

Potus, what do you find to be a joke? 'Cuz I'm willing to discuss it point by point if you want. (I'll be at work today, but back on at night).

oh yeah! Well, I learned it as frame of reference, but w/e ;).

I would post but I got to go to school.

[hvfsl]

Originally posted by runningman
But do they know how electronics work or are they operating on theory. As you get to the subatomic level they aren't sure what happens when they get to the macro level they can predict what happens. But it is not a guarantee. So as before people in life are operating on faith that the rules will con't to apply


Yeah but the devine force would have created everything, how could he/she create everything if they did not know how it worked, how would they be able to create? It basically comes down to how clever you think the devine force is, well I want to believe in one that knows everything, not one that does not know everything and seems pretty stupid.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by Shrek
Scem0, no offense, but you're being really stubborn. If you're not gonna listen, then just say it, so I can quit wasting my time with you and go to bed. Otherwise, I wish you an exciting read!

First, missed all this and it really is something I need to comment on. The Bible is Shrek's favorite and best book, its not Scem0's. Its all personal preference.

Shrek, you're the one who doesn't listen and you keep refering back to the Bible as the 'only' source. Well, for you that might be enough, but in this conversation with Scem0 (and many others), its not. Open your mind and look at the bigger picture here.

As for the sun stopping for a whole day - I don't think so. Its story telling as far as I'm concerned. The Bible has truths, but not all of it is truthful. Written by men who want to make the power of God believable, so they 'embellish' it a bit. There's nothing wrong with that, but for me to believe that everything in the Bible really happened I would be lying to myself.

D