Newest Mac OS X 10.4.8 with Faster OpenGL? [Updated]

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Apple just released a Mac OS X 10.4.8 developer seed (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/09/20060909002617.shtml) marked as build 8L2112 (Intel) and 8L112 (PPC). This latest build was released to developers with little fan fare.

An unconfirmed post (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/09/20060909002617.shtml) claimed the latest 10.4.8 build did incorporate enhanced OpenGL performance which led to the following Cinebench that does not show significant improvements:

Update: Apologies, it appears the benchmarks are not significantly better. Updated numbers seen. Improvements may have been gradual over 10.4.x updates or simply variability in the benchamrks

[arn]

can someone with a Macbook Pro 2.16, 2GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.7 run cinebench and post their results?

arn

[Eidorian]

I'm waiting for 10.4.8 Apple....

[EricNau]

I'm surprised Apple didn't just wait for Leopard.

...But I'm glad they didn't! :D

[nitynate]

C'mon apple!


I need more rosetta support. :D


As it is, it sucks. :o


Woot for Multithreaded OpenGL...

[arn]

What does this mean for PPC users such as myself?

It means if you have a multi-core or multi-processor Mac, then you will see similar speed benefits.

Remember that multi-core/multi-processor PowerPC macs where limited to PowerMacs, however.

arn

[mkjellman]

while these are impressive speed increases, i am not sure how impressive it would be in real life. does any part of the native os x gui or core elements use OpenGL?

the real question is would this increase the "snappyness"' :D of the next release?

[Eidorian]

while these are impressive speed increases, i am not sure how impressive it would be in real life. does any part of the native os x gui or core elements use OpenGL?

the real question is would this increase the "snappyness"' :D of the next release?Let me try not to die from the laughter.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/opengl/

Oh and yes you're going to see a performance increase on integrated graphics systems with multiple-cores.

[skoker]

It means if you have a multi-core or multi-processor Mac, then you will see similar speed benefits.

Remember that multi-core/multi-processor PowerPC macs where limited to PowerMacs, however.

arn

Well, guess my iBook G4 and in-the-mail Clamshell, PPC mini, and 12" PB G4 are left out of this party.

[xPismo]

Am I reading that correctly to say its a 4x to 7x improvement?

Thats staggering.

[arn]

Am I reading that correctly to say its a 4x to 7x improvement?

Thats staggering.

No, it's a 2x improvement if anything. I still need someone to run it on a latest 10.4.7 Mac Book Pro with 2.16GHz CPU and 2GB of ram if possible to verify results.

edit: MacBook Pro

arn

[skoker]

No, it's a 2x improvement if anything. I still need someone to run it on a latest 10.4.7 Mac Book with 2.16GHz CPU and 2GB of ram if possible to verify results.

arn

Are you looking for a MacBook or a MacBook Pro? I don't think there is a 2.16 GHz MacBook

[Animaniac]

Would this result in a Quartz Extreme speed up?

[Sol]

I really hope this update will double the graphics performance of my dual G4 PowerMac. Ideally games will not have to be updated to take advantage of 10.4.8's Open GL improvements.

[OwlBoy]

I really hope this update will double the graphics performance of my dual G4 PowerMac. Ideally games will not have to be updated to take advantage of 10.4.8's Open GL improvements.

The way blizzard is talking, yes they do have to be updated.

-Owl

[sluthy]

Certainly looks like it's there, almost exactly 2x everything. Very cool, since OpenGL is used just about everywhere. Things are looking up for my hopefully imminent MB/MBP purchase in Jan/Feb maybe. Will Vista have multithreaded OpenGL or anything similar (is DirectX multithreaded)?

[arn]

I got some strange results from another MacBook Pro benchmark

2.0GHz, 2GB RAM, 10.4.7:


Rendering (Single CPU): 300 CB-CPU
Rendering (Multiple CPU): 569 CB-CPU

Multiprocessor Speedup: 1.90

Shading (CINEMA 4D) : 342 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Software Lighting) : 1288 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Hardware Lighting) : 2339 CB-GFX

OpenGL Speedup: 6.84


Still not as fast as the 10.4.8 #s, but not that bad. Until I see some more benchs, I pulled the story off the front page. Need more benchmarks...

arn

[OwlBoy]

Certainly looks like it's there, almost exactly 2x everything. Very cool, since OpenGL is used just about everywhere. Things are looking up for my hopefully imminent MB/MBP purchase in Jan/Feb maybe. Will Vista have multithreaded OpenGL or anything similar (is DirectX multithreaded)?

DirectX has had it for awhile.

-Owl

[sluthy]

Ideally games will not have to be updated to take advantage of 10.4.8's Open GL improvements.
The way blizzard is talking, yes they do have to be updated.
Some code modification is reportedly required to see the full benefits of the multi-threaded OpenGL.
Hopefully it will just be a simple small download patch rather than a complete rewrite. Hopefully this OpenGL speedup will encourage more native Mac game development.

[sluthy]

DirectX has had it for awhile.
Bugger. :D :o

So hang on, why do gamers insist there's not much improvement to be had by dual cores yet if DX is multithread aware? How long have the developers had to rewrite their code?

[OwlBoy]

Hopefully it will just be a simple small download patch rather than a complete rewrite. Hopefully this OpenGL speedup will encourage more native Mac game development.

Yeah, from what I can tell World of Warcraft already has some of the stuff put in, if not all. And is just sitting idle untill OpenGL is patched.

Blizzard pushing on Apple for help to make WoW faster is part of the reason these large OpenGL changes are coming along.

-Owl

[melchior]

Just for fun here are my Cinebench frm 10.4.7

CINEBENCH 9.5
****************************************************

Tester : censored

Processor : Hackintosh
MHz : 2130 @ 3280
Number of CPUs : 2
Operating System : 10.4.7

Graphics Card : X1800 XT
Resolution : 1600 x 1200
Color Depth : 24 bit

****************************************************

Rendering (Single CPU): 540 CB-CPU
Rendering (Multiple CPU): 1013 CB-CPU

Multiprocessor Speedup: 1.88

Shading (CINEMA 4D) : 641 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Software Lighting) : 2497 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Hardware Lighting) : 5177 CB-GFX

OpenGL Speedup: 8.08

****************************************************

[marcosc]

Hi there,

My first post, with results.

Cinebench ran on MacBook Pro 15" 2.16GHz, 2GB Ram, X1600 256mb card, with OS X 10.4.7:

CPU (1 CPU): 329CB
CPU (2 CPU): 626CB
Multiprocessor Speedup: 1.90x

C4D Shading: 385CB
OpenGL SW-L: 1476 CB
OpenGL HW-L: 2828 CB
OpenGL Speedup: 7.35x

Double-checked results, they are accurate. It would appear that your results for 10.4.7 are pretty inaccurate. The real gain is practically negligible. Also, note that I'm running the MacBook on clamshell mode connected to a 30 ACD, so I'm pretty sure the number of pixels powered influences the results a bit.

Later,
M.

[nertzy]

CINEBENCH 9.5
****************************************************

Tester : Grant Hutchins

Processor : Intel Core Duo
MHz : 2.16 GHz
Number of CPUs : 2
Operating System : Mac OS X 10.4.7

Graphics Card : ATI Radeon X1600
Resolution : 1680 x 1050
Color Depth : 32-bit Color

****************************************************

Rendering (Single CPU): 328 CB-CPU
Rendering (Multiple CPU): 559 CB-CPU

Multiprocessor Speedup: 1.70

Shading (CINEMA 4D) : 381 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Software Lighting) : 1503 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Hardware Lighting) : 2947 CB-GFX

OpenGL Speedup: 7.74

****************************************************

[arn]

ok...

I suppose there have been speed increases along the way from the first 10.4.x results that where posted.

So, no substantial increase in speed I suppose. Also, I verified that the Multicore OpenGL speedups do require code modification, so it's unlikely to be the cause of any significant speed up on these benchmarks.

thanks. will update to a Page 2 story. Sorry for the false alarm.

arn

[Rocksaurus]

ok...

I suppose there have been speed increases along the way from the first 10.4.x results that where posted.

So, no substantial increase in speed I suppose. Also, I verified that the Multicore OpenGL speedups do require code modification, so it's unlikely to be the cause of any significant speed up on these benchmarks.

thanks. will update to a Page 2 story. Sorry for the false alarm.

arn

So does Cinebench require a code modification to recognize the OpenGL speedup too...? Until it gets it can we even truly know what we're looking at here?

[arn]

So does Cinebench require a code modification to recognize the OpenGL speedup too...?

apparently so.

[thefunkymunky]

Here's mine.

CINEBENCH 9.5
****************************************************

Processor : MBP
MHz : 2.16GHz
Number of CPUs : 2
Operating System : 10.4.7

Graphics Card : X1600 256MB

****************************************************

Rendering (Single CPU): 329 CB-CPU
Rendering (Multiple CPU): 620 CB-CPU

Multiprocessor Speedup: 1.88

Shading (CINEMA 4D) : 380 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Software Lighting) : 1477 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Hardware Lighting) : 2868 CB-GFX

OpenGL Speedup: 7.55

****************************************************

[KevanDual2.5]

can someone with a Macbook Pro 2.16, 2GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.7 run cinebench and post their results?

arn


Sorry if these are not in a logical order. I have never used Cinebench before.

MacBook Pro 2.16Ghz with 2GB RAM...

Rendering (1 CPU) 322 CB-CPU
Rendering (x CPU) 613 CB-CPU
Multiprocessor Speedup 1.90x

C4D Shading 375 CB-GFX
OpenGL SW-L 1463 CB-GFX
OpenGl HW-L 2560 CB-GFX
OpenGL Speedup 7.07x



PowerMac G5 Dual 2.5GHz with 2.5GB RAM and ATI 9800XT

Rendering (1 CPU) 382 CB-CPU
Rendering (x CPU) 693 CB-CPU
Multiprocessor Speedup 1.81x

C4D Shading 372 CB-GFX
OpenGL SW-L 1053 CB-GFX
OpenGl HW-L 1880 CB-GFX
OpenGL Speedup 5.05x

I hope this info is what you are asking for.

[Peace]

From the Cinebench website :

Note:
April 7, 2006: CINEBENCH 9.5 adapted to the latest Mac OSX OpenGL implementation.


There's a newer version of OpenGL in 10.4.8 thus making any benchmark not very accurate.At least not as accurate as it would be had it been optimized for the newer version.

The newest version of OpenGL went out Sept.7th

[Thomas Harte]

In any case, surely the dramatic gains for an updated OpenGL would be for the Core Duo Mac Mini and MacBook? If the improvements are all threading related then they're only going to be of dramatic benefit to the computers that are having to use their CPU a lot for OpenGL tasks. Sure there is probably room for shaving overhead off the T&L performing GPU machines but surely nobody is really expecing anything drastic?

[Xapplimatic]

Looking at the results for 2x processor machines, it works out to a 12% gain in OpenGL speed for dual processors. That's nothing to shake a stick at.. That's the difference between a game running at 53 FPS and a full 60 FPS when it starts to bog down. That's a very nice gain for a free update.. Very nice indeed! And once all the debugging code is removed for the final update, I'm sure it will gain a little bit more even. However, I doubt that this has anything to do with multi-threaded OpenGL. I could be wrong.

[Stridder44]

Looking at the results for 2x processor machines, it works out to a 12% gain in OpenGL speed for dual processors. That's nothing to shake a stick at.. That's the difference between a game running at 53 FPS and a full 60 FPS when it starts to bog down. That's a very nice gain for a free update.. Very nice indeed! And once all the debugging code is removed for the final update, I'm sure it will gain a little bit more even. However, I doubt that this has anything to do with multi-threaded OpenGL. I could be wrong.


Thank God. I hope you're right.

[akac]

I got some strange results from another MacBook Pro benchmark

2.0GHz, 2GB RAM, 10.4.7:



Still not as fast as the 10.4.8 #s, but not that bad. Until I see some more benchs, I pulled the story off the front page. Need more benchmarks...

arn

Its possible, just like the Mac Pro, you won't see any speedup until the software has been patched to add support for the multi-threaded OpenGL.

[displaced]

Its possible, just like the Mac Pro, you won't see any speedup until the software has been patched to add support for the multi-threaded OpenGL.

I believe the latest World of Warcraft patch has indeed added support for this OpenGL improvement. In which case, I'll be doing a quick FPS test in WoW before and after applying the 10.4.8 patch. However, FPS tests in an MMORPG isn't foolproof, because it's difficult to run two identical tests.

[madmark]

The way blizzard is talking, yes they do have to be updated.

-Owl

Tigerclaw (WoW Mac dev lead) is hoping to get Multi-Threaded OpenGL into an upcoming release (1.12.1, possibly).

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20343283&postId=200937104&sid=1#1

-MAD

[dwishbone]

these benchmarks dont reflect the OpenGL enchancements. from what ive seen some of the techs on the blizzard forums say...10.4.8 will have multithreaded OpenGL which can lead to almost double the performance on certain machines. however, its not just the OpenGL...but the implementation. the application has to be rewritten to take full advantage of it. i am guessing cinebench hasnt, thus its only slight improvements. Blizzard is saying that 10.4.8 is going to be a godsend for mac gaming, and as someone else posted they will have it in an upcoming patch...hopefully near the 10.4.8 distribution date.

[Glass]

CINEBENCH 9.5
****************************************************

Tester : Cinebench 9.5

Processor : MacBook Pro
MHz : 2000
Number of CPUs : 2
Operating System : Mac OS X 10.4.7

Graphics Card : X1600
Resolution : <fill this out>
Color Depth : <fill this out>

****************************************************

Rendering (Single CPU): 305 CB-CPU
Rendering (Multiple CPU): 580 CB-CPU

Multiprocessor Speedup: 1.90

Shading (CINEMA 4D) : 352 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Software Lighting) : 1344 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Hardware Lighting) : 2593 CB-GFX

OpenGL Speedup: 7.37

****************************************************


are my results normal? I'm seeing some others killing me here.. haha

[aussie_geek]

I believe the latest World of Warcraft patch has indeed added support for this OpenGL improvement. In which case, I'll be doing a quick FPS test in WoW before and after applying the 10.4.8 patch. However, FPS tests in an MMORPG isn't foolproof, because it's difficult to run two identical tests.

Try testing your fps where everyone gathers in ironforge for battlegrounds in the Military Ward before and after the update. ;)

aussie_geek

[Peace]

Just tested a new 20" iMac Core 2 Duo 2.33 w/2Gb Ram :

Processor : iMac Core 2 Duo
MHz : 2.33
Number of CPUs : 2
Operating System : 10.4.8

Graphics Card : ATI XT 1600 256M
Resolution :1680X1050
Color Depth : 32-Bit

****************************************************

Rendering (Single CPU): 386 CB-CPU
Rendering (Multiple CPU): 727 CB-CPU

Multiprocessor Speedup: 1.88

Shading (CINEMA 4D) : 470 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Software Lighting) : 1774 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Hardware Lighting) : 3676 CB-GFX

OpenGL Speedup: 7.83


seems the Shading OpenGL kicks some serious butt!!

****************************************************

The X-Bench Score was 146.Comperable to most PPC Dual 2.7 and 2 PPC Quad Core machines.Don't ask me!! Just reporting.

[godindav]

Hey man. I just got my update and :mad: I am heartbroken. Please don't tell me that will only be for mac pro or leopord.

[rbarris]

Tigerclaw (WoW Mac dev lead) is hoping to get Multi-Threaded OpenGL into an upcoming release (1.12.1, possibly).

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20343283&postId=200937104&sid=1#1

-MAD

WoW's MTGL support is being finalized and improved, and we will ship that in the next major patch after the 1.12 series. Still a few weeks away minimum.

As with a lot of efforts in software, it's one thing to get it "working" and another thing to make it "shippable".

[godindav]

Thats great news about the WoW update. Question is has anyone those who have the original core duo imacs get the update? Or did we get it and not know it?

[rbarris]

Thats great news about the WoW update. Question is has anyone those who have the original core duo imacs get the update? Or did we get it and not know it?

10.4.8 provides the multi-threaded OpenGL engine on all Intel Mac systems. Testing internally has been focused on machines with discrete GPU's (ATI&NVIDIA) so far; it may offer some benefit on machines with integrated video (Intel GPU) but we don't have test data for them yet.

With respect to WoW, the new engine support for MT GL has not yet been released, though it is present in the Burning Crusade expansion client which is now in closed beta test. The MT GL support will be released for all users however, it is not tied to the expansion pack.

[12angrymacs]

CINEBENCH 9.5
****************************************************

Tester : 12angrymacs

Processor : PowerMac G5
MHz : 2.5 Quad
Number of CPUs : 2
Operating System : MacOS X 10.4.8

Graphics Card : 512 MB 7800GTX
Resolution : <1900x1200>
Color Depth : <32Bit>

****************************************************

Rendering (Single CPU): 379 CB-CPU
Rendering (Multiple CPU): 1121 CB-CPU

Multiprocessor Speedup: 2.96

Shading (CINEMA 4D) : 397 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Software Lighting) : 1313 CB-GFX
Shading (OpenGL Hardware Lighting) : 3441 CB-GFX

OpenGL Speedup: 8.68

****************************************************

After i've changed my graphics card, there's a significant changes for Cinebench, but I thought Cinebench is more to processor benchmarking rather than video graphics'

[godindav]

10.4.8 provides the multi-threaded OpenGL engine on all Intel Mac systems. Testing internally has been focused on machines with discrete GPU's (ATI&NVIDIA) so far; it may offer some benefit on machines with integrated video (Intel GPU) but we don't have test data for them yet.

With respect to WoW, the new engine support for MT GL has not yet been released, though it is present in the Burning Crusade expansion client which is now in closed beta test. The MT GL support will be released for all users however, it is not tied to the expansion pack.


Thanks bud that is great info. I havn't got to play WoW yet but trust me when that new patch with that support picks it up I will be first in line. I have friends who tell me I am really missing out on this game and I am really looking forward to play.