Does Apple's new iTV stand to hurt PS3/Blu-ray sales?

[Haoshiro]

If you haven't read about it, Apple has announced the iTV (http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/09/12/itv/index.php), a set-top box letting you stream content for display on your television.

Now the product itself is not games related, but it stands to demonstrate a potential problem with the PS3 and the new "HD" disc formats of HD-DVD and Blu-ray.

It's been said in other threads on the topic of PS3 that it is likely a new disc format will not become the new standard replacing DVD, but instead online distribution will due to convenience, not because of better image quality (although that would only be limited by bandwidth and compression).

Does anyone else think the Apple iTV is a sign of things to come? I for one am much more interested in having all of my media content stored digitally with a convenient and easy to use solution to access this across a network on multiple devices. I'd take a quality hit for that sort of ease of use, the kind the iTV is suggesting will be available soon.

If this turns out to be true for a majority of consumers then inclusing of Blu-ray in PS3 may become pointless very quickly, and even the HD-DVD addon for the Xbox 360 could be short lived.

Good bye disc formats and game systems that facilitate other media, and hello to total media convergence...

[apachie2k]

i also wish iTV has a 1TB HD or extremely large one so that i can store all my movies digitally, and a way to rip my dvd's to it's hd and play them like DVD, with all the features that come with it(subtitles, menus, all that), that would be real convienent and i'll be able to free up some space on my mbp

[dwishbone]

this is exactly what ive wanted...not "new" media...i want "no media". i have always wanted one central enterainment server that i can access anywhere in the house with a slick interface...with no wires.
iTV is going to do that. i will have a media server hidden in a closet somewhere and the iTV just looking so nice.
neither BluRay or HDDVD have me sold on their usefulness. yeah they look better than DVDs, but not that much better that makes you scream...i gotta go buy me a player for $500-1000 to get it.
most people are very happy with DVD and with HDTV's finally gaining momentum people are discovering how good their DVDs have ALWAYS looked...they just didnt have the screen for it. this is why i think Nintendo was on the right track with the Wii. yes HD is great, but it wont be a huge deal for another 4 to 5 years...and by then everyone will be prepping their next gen systems.
im signing up for iTV the day it becomes available.

[Haoshiro]

i also wish iTV has a 1TB HD or extremely large one so that i can store all my movies digitally, and a way to rip my dvd's to it's hd and play them like DVD, with all the features that come with it(subtitles, menus, all that), that would be real convienent and i'll be able to free up some space on my mbp

Personally I think what we will see is people using a combination of the Mac Mini, iTV, and an external harddrive like those from LaCie (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/6334003/wo/eO4Ca8s4kLiH2up3zDIc67NWPj8/5.0.21.1.0.8.25.7.11.2.3) to build a component media center machine.

That seems evident from the size of the iTV, and I think it is a much better solution then an all-in-one device.

[srobert]

That seems evident from the size of the iTV, and I think it is a much better solution then an all-in-one device.

Indeed. Juts add storage to your computer(s) and iTV will make use of it.

iTV is simply the wireless equivalent of a video/audio cable between your computer and TV with Front Row to make accessing your media easy.

I like iTV's compact size. Some people will probably bolt it behind wall mounted display. (If they can use a non infrared remote or some sort uf USB IR receiver dongle).

I don't think iTV will be competing derectly with BluRay/HDDVD for as long as you can't download HD content from the iTMS. There is a world of difference between "near DVD quality" that the iTMS offers and Full HD quality provided by BluRay/HDDVD.

[Haoshiro]

I don't think iTV will be competing derictly with BluRay/HDDVD for as long as you can't download HD content from the iTMS.

What I question is if people will care more about convenience then HD. Which is why iTV could compete even if not directly.

People don't like to buy a movie twice (see: PSP) and that makes this product more appealing, specifically with the iTunes connection. If I can buy a movie for $10US and use it on my PC/Mac (and have it backed up using Leopard's Time Machine), plugin my iPod and watch it on a road trip, plus have access to it from my TV that is a LOT more attractive then paying $25-30US for the same movie in HD, at least for me and I'd venture to guess this would be true for most people.

That's why I think it could draw enough attention to make people see HD Blu-ray/HD-DVD and say "ahh, cool.... but so what?" - moreso then people already are.

[BurtonCCC]

i also wish iTV has a 1TB HD or extremely large one so that i can store all my movies digitally, and a way to rip my dvd's to it's hd and play them like DVD, with all the features that come with it(subtitles, menus, all that), that would be real convienent and i'll be able to free up some space on my mbp
I'd rather just buy another huge external hard drive for my computer. I'd rather have a really small iTV with no hard drive than a bigger one.

Daniel.

[MacRumorUser]

It's been said in other threads on the topic of PS3 that it is likely a new disc format will not become the new standard replacing DVD, but instead online distribution will due to convenience, not because of better image quality (although that would only be limited by bandwidth and compression).

Yep it was me who's be shouting that the loudest in all the ps3 threads - only to usually get laughed or snubbed at afterwards :rolleyes:

I think obviously someone at apple obviously thinks the same and hence iTV

[Dagless]

I don't know if users will replace the PS3's media abilities for iTV (which is a very popular and old TV channel over here and sounds too similar to EyeTV) but I will buy an iTV and not a PS3. Wireless streaming of content from PC and Mac? Top dog. That's something the 360 hasn't grasped, or if they have it isn't advertised enough for me to know about it.

Will it hurt? Well that depends. Those who want a media streamer will likely get this. those who want games will get a PS3. Those who want a computer will buy a computer. I wish Sony would grasp that there is such a little market for "all in one super devices" that they shouldn't gamble the Playstation line on it. Look at what happened the last 2 times they tried it (and 2 only times).

[dwishbone]

has anyone bought any movies yet? what are the file sizes?
my DVDs i ripped in H264 were generally about 400 to 500MB. but there are in double the rez, so was just wondering.

[2nyRiggz]

I don't think HD-DVD, BR or the digital download will top DVDs right now or the next couple of years but I really think people want that effective way of getting and storing their media with this digital way but nothing will replace the novelty of acutal ownership:rolleyes: of the physical box itself.....there is room for this and that but the table just got bigger.

Yes BR/HDDVD will take a hit..DVDs as well

Bless

[Motley]

There are many options with this thing just depends on where Apple wants to go with it. I really want to know if it's possible to stream to multiple iTVs in a house. Not to mention if El Gato could get thier SW to work through iTV so you can control and program the EyeTV with the iTV remote (can't wait for the real iTV name).

I'm excited, this could lead to something new and amazing, or not:D

[GFLPraxis]

I don't think it's a huge threat- one is a streamer, the other stores the movies itself.

However, Apple and Sony seem to have a good relationship. If Sony were to announce that the PS3 is an iTunes-compatible streamer...ooooooh, I might have to bite the bullet on that price point :)

[jdechko]

At $299 with HDMI (and I assume HDCP) it might become a viable alternative to Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. I certainly am tempted to get one when the HD content becomes available.

Another interesting note is the bandwidth. Apparently Blu-Ray calls for a 36Mbps bandwidth throughput. It was mentioned before that there was no note of what 802.11 spec was being used. One might infer that Apple will use the 802.11n, which has a normal bandwidth throughput of 200Mbps and a theoretical max of 540Mbps (Wiki-Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/802.11n)), which is more than enough for several Blu-Ray Streams (at 1080p ?).

[ChrisK018]

I still see this as apples and oranges. Blu Ray and HD-DVD are still a long way from critical mass, and the same goes for HDTV.

I think iTV might impact DVD sales, as various movie studios also seem to be thinking, but even then I'm not so sure.

The PS3 is coming out sometime this fall in the US and Japan? iTV is not due until 2007.

Personally, I want 1080p, and will probably not get too excited about downloadable content until basic internet DSL speeds up. That will probably be in like 5 years, when 1080p tv's are more affordable, and the Blu Ray v. HD DVD war will have a winner (I hope).

So I guess what I'm saying is that in like 5 years I think this thread topic will be very relevant. Not quite so much right now.

[Dagless]

I still see this as apples and oranges.

I wish people would stop using this. Humans have the ability to compare anything. You can compare shampoo to a duck, everything has links. everything can be compared. And it's true here;

DVD's are supposedly on their way out. Sony themselves said the PS4 may not even come with a disc drive. Internet speeds are increasing and more people want things now. It's the age of convenience after all. It's 11pm. All the shops have shut, more rubbish on TV. Oh, I could buy that film I wanted! *downloads and streams* done. I did the same when HL2 came out, instead of spending hours going into town, queuing up then getting home - I just downloaded it via Steam.
Not saying it's an excellent system. I currently have a 512kbps connection so anything downloading will take a long time.

[zero2dash]

DVD's are supposedly on their way out.

Whoa whoa whoa let's not get hasty here. :D
DVDs aren't going anywhere. It took several years for the generic average Walmart crowd blue collar household "owns a DVD player and tossed out the VCR" ratio to go up - you think these same consumers are going to toss their DVD player out the window now to buy unproven newfangled electronics equipment? Fear not my friend.

DVDs will be around for at least the next 3-4 years if not longer. In order for DVDs to be phased out, people need a reason to do so. Considering that most homes don't own HDTVs and don't use component cables because they don't know they're better - there is no reason to upgrade to something higher than a DVD player right now and for the foreseeable future. When more homes own HDTVs, satellite providers offer more than 20+ channels in HD and people start wanting higher resolution products, THEN DVDs will go away. That day is a long way off.

Sony themselves said the PS4 may not even come with a disc drive.

Sony says a lot of stupid BS. Betamax is better than VHS. UMD is the wave of the future! /snicker
Don't put a lot of faith into what comes out of Sony's mouth. Sony's also about to go belly up in bankruptcy as well, so - don't count on too many more radical ideas from them. If BluRay goes belly up like Betamax and UMD did, then Sony's in deep $#!t.

Internet speeds are increasing and more people want things now. It's the age of convenience after all. It's 11pm. All the shops have shut, more rubbish on TV. Oh, I could buy that film I wanted! *downloads and streams* done. I did the same when HL2 came out, instead of spending hours going into town, queuing up then getting home - I just downloaded it via Steam.
Not saying it's an excellent system. I currently have a 512kbps connection so anything downloading will take a long time.

You have a good point. But you also didn't mention the fact that most homes do not have broadband connections. Those that do - the speeds are increasing. Mom and pop out in the boonies, 50 miles away from a city living in the woodlands - don't get broadband (unless it's that satellite BS and that's pathetically slow compared to cable, DSL, T1, OC3 etc). You're falling into the same category as DVDs going away...physical media (whether games, music, movies, tv shows etc) will be here for a long time. Until the entire world is "connected", don't plan on anything going away.

Besides that, most people would rather have a physical disc with the music/show/game on it and be able to transfer it to a secondary device where it's stored (ie a hard drive or set top box) so in the event that the cd is trashed, the music/show/game is still available to them (and vice versa). Hard drives fail more often than a cd is busted in half, but nevertheless.

As for the original though - iTV hurting Ps3/BluRay sales? Doubtful. You're talking about two markets wanting different things. It's like saying "will a Cadillac sale sway a Yugo shopper" and the answer is no.

[greatdevourer]

At $299 with HDMI (and I assume HDCP) it might become a viable alternative to Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. I certainly am tempted to get one when the HD content becomes available.

Another interesting note is the bandwidth. Apparently Blu-Ray calls for a 36Mbps bandwidth throughput. It was mentioned before that there was no note of what 802.11 spec was being used. One might infer that Apple will use the 802.11n, which has a normal bandwidth throughput of 200Mbps and a theoretical max of 540Mbps (Wiki-Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/802.11n)), which is more than enough for several Blu-Ray Streams (at 1080p ?). Ah, but will the comp that's hosting the files have n? My media server is still on b, so with the exception of the newest comps at the time, wires'll still be important

You have a good point. But you also didn't mention the fact that most homes do not have broadband connections. Those that do - the speeds are increasing. Mom and pop out in the boonies, 50 miles away from a city living in the woodlands - don't get broadband (unless it's that satellite BS and that's pathetically slow compared to cable, DSL, T1, OC3 etc). You're falling into the same category as DVDs going away...physical media (whether games, music, movies, tv shows etc) will be here for a long time. Until the entire world is "connected", don't plan on anything going away. Leave the US, you'll see a lot more bandwidth per capita ;)

[GFLPraxis]

At $299 with HDMI (and I assume HDCP) it might become a viable alternative to Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. I certainly am tempted to get one when the HD content becomes available.

Another interesting note is the bandwidth. Apparently Blu-Ray calls for a 36Mbps bandwidth throughput. It was mentioned before that there was no note of what 802.11 spec was being used. One might infer that Apple will use the 802.11n, which has a normal bandwidth throughput of 200Mbps and a theoretical max of 540Mbps (Wiki-Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/802.11n)), which is more than enough for several Blu-Ray Streams (at 1080p ?).


802.11n was the first thing I thought, while I was watching the conference.

If this thing is like an Airport Express for video, I wonder if it might even function as an 802.11n base station? That might tempt me to get one, since if 802.11n costs as much initially as 802.11g did, base stations will cost around $200 normally.

[zero2dash]

Ah, but will the comp that's hosting the files have n? My media server is still on b, so with the exception of the newest comps at the time, wires'll still be important

Leave the US, you'll see a lot more bandwidth per capita ;)

Oh I know, broadband is available practically everywhere in Europe and Asia. But no one's going to ignore the US market (and our unfortunate technological crutches). :) Yeesh I couldn't imagine having dialup after having DSL for the last 8 years of my life. Two years ago I went from 1.5 -> 3 meg...no lookin' back. Almost upgraded to 6 meg recently but I don't get to use the 3 meg as much anymore with a 2 y/o daughter to take care of now. :D

[apfhex]

If you watched the Showtime event, you might have noticed that the iTV also has ethernet, so that /should/ allow for content delivery over that instead of 802.11. Here's hoping. That would allow for true HD content and is still WAY WAY better than getting a 50+ ft DVI/HDMI cable.

The problem with iTV vs Blu-ray/HD-DVD is how do you get the HD content? Apple would have to start selling it to us, which they probably aren't going to be doing very soon.

I, for one, don't plan on having a Blu-ray or HD-DVD player anytime soon, but if I could get HD content on an iTV I'd gladly buy one.

[apachie2k]

the notion of having iTV also bieng a router for the new 802.11n draft hadn't creeped into my small head yet, what a good idea! also i thought if this was the case, then maybe the new mbp would have be enabled to access this new "standard", what a thrilling idea!! also i was worried that people obviously have more than one t.v. now adays, so are we expected to buy a couple of these iTV's at 200 bucks each... i would also like to know if anyone thinks that iTV could be used to watch t.v. on your computer, and record shows like a dvr...

cheers

[Dagless]

zero2dash -

I don't agree with what they're saying. But I'm sure I've heard other companies than Sony speak of erasing disc formats and using downloads to keep things running. Like I said myself; I only have a 512kbps connection which is split between my laptop a mile from the router and 2 LAN connected PC's downstairs with my brother downloading yet another Xbox 360 HD trailer.

Anywho... with faster connections and stores like iTunes this situation will happen. It will massively reduce the cost of the media (printing, cases, disc etc).

[Cooknn]

What I question is if people will care more about convenience then HDNo way. Once you go HD you are ruined. Convenience goes out the door because you are now relegated to about a dozen channels even though your cable or satellite provider gives you hundreds. If iTV is going to compete with Blu-Ray/HD-DVD it will have to do Hi-Def and Apple will have to offer it up at a resonable monthly fee and not just a flat rate price per movie. If not, those ruined by HD will get their fix another way.

I'm going to be on the doorstep of my local Gamestop the day they start taking pre-orders for the Playstation 3 hoping to become one of the chosen few who will receive the new console with built in Blu-Ray before they sell out of their limited stock. Once I'm hooked up with that, a subsciption to NetFlix is the remaining piece of the puzzle to set me up for home entertainment nirvana ;)

[dwishbone]

since the iTV does have HDMI and component capabilities i think its pretty safe to assume Apple has plans to have HDMI content available...even if its just the ability to somehow convert HDDVD/BluRay discs to H264 yourself.
if they didnt have HD plans then they wouldnt have bothered to have HD connectors on the device.
also apple does have some HD content (such as movie trailers) already on iTunes i believe.

[XNine]

Zero, you obviously only know HALF of what you are talking about. Beta WAS superior to VHS. The cost wasn't, but the quality was.

As for those complaining about Bluray's video quality, that's probably becuase there hasn't been any bluray discs released (or at least reviewed) that have had films filmed in HD to start with.

Secondly, the iTV is like an extension to front row, and a damned expensive one at that, not much else. I already have these features of movie/pics/itunes sharing with my original modded xbox and my xbox 360. I can play everything (especially since all of my DRM purchases get cracked and stripped of the stupid DRM anyway). DVD movies? Right into the disc tray. iTunes and iPhoto straight through the Blades....

IF, and this is a big IF, the iTv recorded TV shows to your Mac (just like a Tivo/ReplayTV/DVR of your choice functions with an HDD for all content), plays DVD's, plays streamed music, photos, videos/movies from the Mac, then it's more than worth the 299 price tag. But all evidence shows so far is that all it really is, is a front-end for Frontrow.

Technology WILL advance so far that one day, maybe even 5 years from now disc media will be obsolete. I don't doubt it. That's why there's tons of R&D into 3-D storage devices, think of a cylindar with tons of layer sthat can be read/written to.

Not far from now we will see this happen.

[jrv3034]

I'm just waiting for someone to do the "shampoo - duck" comparison...

[Thanatoast]

What I question is if people will care more about convenience then HD. Which is why iTV could compete even if not directly.

People don't like to buy a movie twice (see: PSP) and that makes this product more appealing, specifically with the iTunes connection. If I can buy a movie for $10US and use it on my PC/Mac (and have it backed up using Leopard's Time Machine), plugin my iPod and watch it on a road trip, plus have access to it from my TV that is a LOT more attractive then paying $25-30US for the same movie in HD, at least for me and I'd venture to guess this would be true for most people.

That's why I think it could draw enough attention to make people see HD Blu-ray/HD-DVD and say "ahh, cool.... but so what?" - moreso then people already are.
This is an excellent point. Ten dollars to own it, back it up, watch it on my iPod and my TV. I have a crappy $35 dvd player that has not-so-great picture quality and a 27" traditional tv. I neither need nor want HD, and I'm usually the first to suffer from techno-lust. If Steve can convince America that iTV is as convenient, cheap and easy to use as an iPod+iTMS I think Apple might actually pull this off.

[Haoshiro]

No way. Once you go HD you are ruined. Convenience goes out the door because you are now relegated to about a dozen channels even though your cable or satellite provider gives you hundreds. If iTV is going to compete with Blu-Ray/HD-DVD it will have to do Hi-Def and Apple will have to offer it up at a resonable monthly fee and not just a flat rate price per movie. If not, those ruined by HD will get their fix another way.

I'm going to be on the doorstep of my local Gamestop the day they start taking pre-orders for the Playstation 3 hoping to become one of the chosen few who will receive the new console with built in Blu-Ray before they sell out of their limited stock. Once I'm hooked up with that, a subsciption to NetFlix is the remaining piece of the puzzle to set me up for home entertainment nirvana ;)

I've seen HD content and it is beautiful, but I am just not the tech-junkie I used to be so it doesn't have the same effect on me as it seems to on you. I think the tech-junkie crowd is niche, personally.

What I really think people are missing here is the convenience to the publishers and studios, and that ultimately is what causes technology adoption.

What makes the most money for a studio like Walt Disney? Physical distribution has so many people involved everyone is getting there hands on the money, packaging, discs, physical shipping, retailer, etc.

Studios stand to make a lot more money with digital distribution and they are the last people to jump on a new technology because it's cool and tech-junkie's love it, heh.

So the real question is... will Sony team with Apple or avoid making all that extra cash selling their movies/music on iTunes just so they can "do it themselves"?

[ReanimationLP]

It might just be me, or my stores demos, buttttttttttttttttt....

HDDVD looks a lot nicer than Blu-Ray.

And we're using the Samsung player and the HDMI and the 1080p TV on our demos. >.>'