Amazon and TiVo Partnership?

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

The New York Post (http://www.nypost.com/business/amazon_and_tivo_get_in_movie_biz_business_tim_arango.htm) claims that Amazon and TiVo are in negotiations about bringing Amazon's Unbox movies to your television screen. According to their sources, the potential new feature would allow users to automatically transfer online movie puchases to their TiVO.

This offers a similar service as Apple's pre-announced iTv device (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/09/20060920012814.shtml). Apple's iTv attempts to provide this computer-TV connection with a seperate set-top box which locally connects to your Mac/PC to play your iTunes downloaded content. Presumably, a TiVo version of this would provide similar functionality with Amazon Unboxed videos.

Amazon's Unbox service has received poor reviews (http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/18/technology/lewis_unbox.fortune/?postversion=2006091909) since its launch (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/09/20060907165405.shtml).

[dizastor]

let's hope iTV + iTunes has the functionality to outperform the unbox + TiVo solution.

I'm not concerned at this point, I'm sure this is a "let's play catch-up" move whereas Apple has been designing and integrating their services behind the scenes for well over a year now.

[lopresmb]

this is supposed to read apple and TiVo partnership, not amazon and Tivo, dangit

[askthedust]

This is exactly what I posted that the iTV should do. remove the computer from the process and let the box connect and store the content.

[Squonk]

Although I have no plans to buy anything from Unbox, their selection is really great. I've been watching snippets of the original Star Trek series. I'd buy them if they were on iTunes. Steve??? :)

[peharri]

I can't help but think that's good news. It's going to be a while before Amazon and TiVo gets the warts out their product, but in the long term we'll be seeing a real alternative to iTV/iTunes.

While iTV and iTunes may end up still being "better", competition can only improve things and keep the dominant player in check. It also creates incentives for the "second place" player to find ways of increasing their share, by including people who wouldn't normally want or be able to obtain either service.

I'm sure people will vote this as negative because it's competing with Apple, but I take the opposite view. It may be "competing", but in the end, both services and the created market will be stronger for it.

[Squonk]

Will the "iTV" perform DVR (recording) functionality as well or is it strickly a playback device?

[lopresmb]

TiVo ease of use combined with front row/iTv interface sure would be amazing

[arn]

Will the "iTV" perform DVR (recording) functionality as well or is it strickly a playback device?

Based on the announcements, it's strictly a playback device.

[iMeowbot]

Will the "iTV" perform DVR (recording) functionality as well or is it strickly a playback device?
The box as shown doesn't seem to have any inputs that would allow recording. Iger's mention of a disk drive leaves some possibility of downloads, but we'll have to wait for the box to arrive before we know what it really can do.

[baleensavage]

Amazon's Unbox service has received [url="http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/18/technology/lewis_unbox.fortune/?postversion=2006091909"]poor reviews (http://www.macrumors.com)
Wow, that was a scathing review. I hope Apple gets better reviews. As of right now it appears that it may take a deal with Tivo to save Unbox.

[05elstonc]

The major problem with this is the connection speed of most Tivo users. Many tivo users have their box connected via Dial-up using the built in modem. This segment will not be able to use the service, so their goes at least 40% of the installed tivo base who could even use the service. Then for those that are connected the series 2 boxes have flakey 802.11g support so download times will be slow slow slow. Then the geeks who would try this have the lifetime service, so their credit card is not on file, like the monthly subscribers are. I just see so many friction points that this sort of service will be quite tough to gain traction. Not to mention the unbox movies are around 2gigs which is a hefty file on a 40gig tivo.

[lhmpdx]

If Amazon can send HD movies to the new Series 3 HD Tivo, both Toshiba and Sony lose big time. It would be a great end to their format war.

[Doctor Q]

Thread cross-reference: Please use the What should the iTV product be named? thread for comments about the iTV product name.

[bommai]

I heard somewhere that Tivo runs on Linux. So, they need to somehow decode Micro$oft DRM'd Unbox files. Easier said than done since this does not exist for Linux and only exists for Windows. Also, most Tivo users are actually using it through DirecTV. Only 35% of Tivo users have a standalone box. This standalone box cannot do any HD. The series two box has only a USB port and you need to buy a 802.11b dongle. I don't even think the 802.11g exists for Tivo. The only product that will come close to good solution is Series 3, but that costs $800 and it just came out.

While I think Apple should include a DVD/CD drive in iTV and up the price by $50 (if they want!), I think iTV is a better solution than going after cable/satellite business.

A lot of people that desperately want a DVR don't realize that only 12% of the US household get their TV from rooftop/rabbit ears antenna. 88% get it through subscription to cable/satellite. These 88% cannot be served well with a DVR solution that is not endorsed by the cable/satellite companies. These companies are holding these markets to themselves and contrary to what people say it is going to stay that way for a while to come. It is wise for Apple to stay away from the built-in tuner market and let Elgato do that as an addon. However, by adding an upconverting DVD drive to iTV, Apple can effectively assist customers in getting rid of one more box (the DVD player). Most TVs in the market now have only one or two HDMI ports. While Apple might want to get away from DVD/CD distribution, they should position iTV 1.0 as a crossover device that can play users's DVD/CDs as well as streamed content (cached with a hard drive). The user can use on HDMI cable for all that, instead of yet another one.

[mdntcallr]

you are right, the selection of movies and tv shows is great there.

great selection of tv on apple. but... apple needs to let movie studios price the movies variably or even for rental the way they want to do.

if apple let the studios price their way... they would have a much larger selection of content.

but to be honest, i DO NOT see the benefit of buying a movie digitally at almost $20 USD when i can buy dvd's for about the same price.

so i do see the limit of $15 as appropriate. oh well lets see how this pans out. the studio's may do a 2 year deal to get this stuff going then re-negotiate a new deal on pricing.

[Kirkmedia]

Based on the announcements, it's strictly a playback device.

It's going to have an internal hard drive. I'm sure it will record.

[speakster]

It's going to have an internal hard drive. I'm sure it will record.

Yes, they would love to cannibalize their TV and Movie sales by letting people get the content for free.

:rolleyes:

And it was Iger who said it would have a hard drive....If it's not from SJ's mouth or on the Apple website, it isn't true....yet. My bet is that if it is in there, it's there for buffering purposes only.

But I would love to be wrong...

[Kirkmedia]

Yes, they would love to cannibalize their TV and Movie sales by letting people get the content for free.

:rolleyes:

And it was Iger who said it would have a hard drive....If it's not from SJ's mouth or on the Apple website, it isn't true....yet. My bet is that if it is in there, it's there for buffering purposes only.

But I would love to be wrong...

This why an amazon/tivo partnership is good. Apple will have to provide
DVR functionality to compete. And the Movie studios will be forced to negotiate
with Apple.

[arn]

It's going to have an internal hard drive. I'm sure it will record.

record what? there's no video in.

arn

[Kirkmedia]

record what? there's no video in.

arn

If apple wants to compete with amazon/tivo this device will have to
evolve quick.

[Squonk]

(snip)
But to be honest, i DO NOT see the benefit of buying a movie digitally at almost $20 USD when i can buy dvd's for about the same price.


I agree. For old TV shows, let's make the pricing in the impulse range and I would think the sales would soar. Old shows for $.99 and I'm in.

(snip)
oh well lets see how this pans out. the studio's may do a 2 year deal to get this stuff going then re-negotiate a new deal on pricing.

That's what people were saying on the music side of things and at the time of renewal, Steve had to fight something fierce to keep the current model. It will be interesting to see if more movie companies jump on board or not.

[Samurai]

This is exactly what I posted that the iTV should do. remove the computer from the process and let the box connect and store the content.

I always thought it was really dumb that I have this powerful Mac computer in my house and then I have a TiVO which is a full computer by itself complete with Linux, HD, networking, etc. Why can't I just have my Mac do all this for me ? I don't want another computer under my TV. I think iTV is exactly what we want. Leverage the computer you already have and just interface it to to your TV. I think Unibox and TiVo is the wrong way. I don't want to pay $799 for another computer to sit under my TV when I already have my Mac. We just need to add a USB tuner for Cable, OTA, or Sat connected to the Mac (not connected to iTV). iTV should just be an interface, recording and everythinhg else should be done on your Mac.

[Kirkmedia]

[QUOTE=speakster]Yes, they would love to cannibalize their TV and Movie sales by letting people get the content for free.

:rolleyes:

They make more selling hardware, than content. And they would still sell
a ton of content.

[Yvan256]

Isn't Tivo USA-only?

Getting a PVR in Canada is quite complicated... except if you go with your content provider, in which case you have only one choice of PVR box and it costs 500$CAD or more. The "iTV" device and TV shows/movies can't come fast enough here. If Apple sets decent pricing for whole seasons of TV shows, I might even drop my cable service altogether.

I might not like the idea of paying to own TV shows, but then again I'm already paying to have the shows sent to me on a fixed schedule that I might miss if I'm not home (or if I forget to set the digital cable box to the right channel and program my VCR for the right input at the right time).

All I have to do is add the digital cable bills for a year, calculate the number of shows I really watch, then compare the total cost with how much it'd cost with buying the shows from Apple. As long as it's at least equal, I'll switch to the Apple solution within a month.

I hope we get Canadian TV shows along with USA content, though. I'd hate to have to pick between Corner Gas* and Battlestar Galactica. :D

* it's like a Canadian version of Seinfeld, except that it's a show about nothing set in the middle of nowhere**.

** no offense to people in Saskatchewan.

[bommai]

Yes, they would love to cannibalize their TV and Movie sales by letting people get the content for free.

:rolleyes:

And it was Iger who said it would have a hard drive....If it's not from SJ's mouth or on the Apple website, it isn't true....yet. My bet is that if it is in there, it's there for buffering purposes only.

But I would love to be wrong...

The iTV box is really small. So, even if it has a hard drive, it will be a tiny one like the Playstation 3 - 20 to 60GB. You can't really use a 20-60GB hard drive for doing DVR (especially HD). So, get over it. iTV will not record from a tuner. It will however use the HD effectively for buffering streams and giving the end user a smooth experience. For example, if the user wants to fast forward or rewind, you don't want the iTV box hiccup because it needs to stream more stuff do you!!

Flash is not effective for caching streams because it is going to be constantly used. The iPod uses RAM for caching and flash for storing the songs (Nano, shuffle).

[arn]

iTV should just be an interface, recording and everythinhg else should be done on your Mac.

now this is a good thought. You really just need a TV-in/DVR software for your Mac that integrates with iTunes.... and iTv will playback that.

You don't even need Apple to make this happen.

arn

[nagromme]

Yes, they would love to cannibalize their TV and Movie sales by letting people get the content for free.

:rolleyes:

Next thing you know, Apple will cannibalize music downloads by letting people import their CD collection ;)

There are many factors involved in the equation: raw numbers of video downloads is but one. And even THAT could benefit by greater adoption of Apple products including iTV--and recording ability would help speed that adoption.

For instance, if iTunes did NOT allow CD importing, I believe Apple would have sold LESS music by download. Because CD importing is something people want, and the lack of it would have hampered the adoption of iTunes.

[bommai]

now this is a good thought. You really just need a TV-in/DVR software for your Mac that integrates with iTunes.... and iTv will playback that.

You don't even need Apple to make this happen.

arn

I am sure elgato will come up with that one as long as the video hardware in iTV can decode MPEG2 Transport Streams (for OTA HD). However, it is still not an elegant solution since you won't be able to pause live TV from your couch, unless iTV can send a message back to the Mac and to the Elgato software to pause. Also, this setup will still be for niche people since most of the US gets their broadcasts from Cable/satellite. OTA HD is great (I use that exclusively) but unfortunately, still niche. I think Apple should specialize in getting computer media (iLife including store bought content) to the living room.

[Kirkmedia]

The iTV box is really small. So, even if it has a hard drive, it will be a tiny one like the Playstation 3 - 20 to 60GB. You can't really use a 20-60GB hard drive for doing DVR (especially HD). So, get over it. iTV will not record from a tuner. It will however use the HD effectively for buffering streams and giving the end user a smooth experience. For example, if the user wants to fast forward or rewind, you don't want the iTV box hiccup because it needs to stream more stuff do you!!

Flash is not effective for caching streams because it is going to be constantly used. The iPod uses RAM for caching and flash for storing the songs (Nano, shuffle).

If you can get 80 gig in an ipod, you can get 250 gig in itv. Or you just add more drives to your Mac and record to the mac.

You will be recording with itv before you know it. Either to itv's own internal
drive, or your Mac's internal drive or a combination of both.

[Purpleshorts]

I agree with Samauri. Use your powerful Mac to be your DVR. All it lacks is inputs.

The same trend is seen in my music studio - In ancient times (four years ago) each of the samplers, drums, and rackmount effects units each had its own processor. Over time, much of this hardware has been replaced by software, all run from a single music workstation computer.

It's easy to imagine an Apple TIVO being written in software, to be viewed through iTV. (or iTube, iFlicks, iCinema, iShow, airFlicks, airTube...)

Another welcome addition would be burning (legal or otherwise) of DVDs.

[Yvan256]

If you can get 80 gig in an ipod, you can get 250 gig in itv. Or you just add more drives to your Mac and record to the mac.

You will be recording with itv before you know it. Either to itv's own internal
drive, or your Mac's internal drive or a combination of both.

Given its size, if there's a hard drive in the "iTV" then it has to be a 2.5", which maxes out at around 100-120GB right now (AFAIK).

As for recording, the "iTV" and current Macs don't have any inputs for recording video. And would you go with the obsolete analog cable TV channels or the digital cable version? Isn't there a few different standards for that? Not to mention the differences between countries.

Apple are trying to skip all those problems and distribute the content themselves. If I want a TV show, I don't "program my unit to record it on a given date and time", I have the server send what I want directly to me. I hope the content networks see Apple as just another distribution channel instead of a new competitor.

[balamw]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo....

I love my TiVos (I have three DirecTiVos and only two Macs) Now I won't know what to lust after, the iTV or the TiVo Series 3...

Anyhow, even though TiVo runs on Linux, they've aligned themselves with Windows Media, with their adoption of WMV DRM for TiVo to Go.

Given its size, if there's a hard drive in the "iTV" then it has to be a 2.5", which maxes out at around 100-120GB right now (AFAIK).
FWIW I think Apple has a good supplier of 1.8" drives too. :p Could be a 30 GB 1.8".

[Squonk]

Given its size, if there's a hard drive in the "iTV" then it has to be a 2.5", which maxes out at around 100-120GB right now (AFAIK).


160GB is the current max size for 2.5" drives. And I think that Toshiba has a 200GB in the works to come out this fall, if my memory is correct...

[Thanatoast]

Let Amazon have Tivo. I'd rather have the ability to buy and watch the media I want to watch rather than the ability to record two hundred channels worth of crap I have no interest in.

[Kirkmedia]

Who's to say tivo won't support Unbox & Itunes Store?

[Yvan256]

FWIW I think Apple has a good supplier of 1.8" drives too. :p Could be a 30 GB 1.8".

I've read somewhere that 1.8" drives aren't designed to be used as "always-on" storage devices like regular computer hard drives. Also, 1.8" drives would cost even more per GB than 2.5" drives (which already cost a lot more than 3.5" drives per GB).

[dante@sisna.com]

I always thought it was really dumb that I have this powerful Mac computer in my house and then I have a TiVO which is a full computer by itself complete with Linux, HD, networking, etc. Why can't I just have my Mac do all this for me ? I don't want another computer under my TV. I think iTV is exactly what we want. Leverage the computer you already have and just interface it to to your TV. I think Unibox and TiVo is the wrong way. I don't want to pay $799 for another computer to sit under my TV when I already have my Mac. We just need to add a USB tuner for Cable, OTA, or Sat connected to the Mac (not connected to iTV). iTV should just be an interface, recording and everythinhg else should be done on your Mac.

Yes exactly, I agree. Plus with iTV one can stream to multiple TV's. I don't think Tivo offers this.

[arn]

Yes exactly, I agree. Plus with iTV one can stream to multiple TV's. I don't think Tivo offers this.

I'm not sure what you mean. You can't easily watch your iTunes movies on more than one TV unless you have multiple iTVs.

arn

[SirOmega]

As someone who is both a TiVo and Apple fanboy, let me offer the following...

TiVo has been looking for a partner for the whole download and watch on your big screen. They tried netflix, but the studios put the kibosh on that. Sad really, it would have destroyed the competition (apple, amazon, etc) in the movie market, and probably hurt DVD sales significantly.

Amazon Unbox uses the WMV9 (VC-1) codec. This means the only TiVo that would be able to watch unbox videos is the new Series 3 Hi-Def TiVo which costs $800 currently (though the price is expected to decrease some in Q1 07). The S3 TiVo has a broadcom chip inside that will decode MPEG2, H.264 and WMV9/VC-1. It also has a 250GB HD, with the option of external eSATA storage (though that functionality isnt available yet), so space isnt an issue. The S3 TiVo will also eventually support multiroom viewing (obviously requiring a S3 TiVo at each HDTV).

What is an issue is the market these are aimed at. If I buy a S3 TiVo, I sure as hell am not going to be buying near DVD quality movies online, after I've put almost $6,000 into my home theater. I'm going to spend money on a HD-DVD player and buy HD movies from the store and make sure I get the best quality. Its the same reason I probably wouldnt buy a iTV unless there was compelling HD content to go with it. Amazon unbox and the iTunes store would need to sell me HD quality movies, and my 10Mb/s downstream pipe would suck it down in about 1/2 realtime (2 hour movie takes 4 hours to d/l). Then there is the issue of not being able to backup these movies - computers are still much more fragile (HD crash, etc) than my bookshelf with movies on it. Hard drives are getting cheaper, but do I really need to put together a 5TB RAID array to backup my movies to?

[Counterfit]

From the Unbox review: My home DSL connection clocks in consistently at around 4.9 gigabits per second - fast by American residential standards - and it still took me five hours to download a movie from Unbox.
Riiight....

[bommai]

If you can get 80 gig in an ipod, you can get 250 gig in itv. Or you just add more drives to your Mac and record to the mac.

You will be recording with itv before you know it. Either to itv's own internal
drive, or your Mac's internal drive or a combination of both.

Pricing is key!! 80GB iPod = $349. iTV = $299. You decide. 1.8" HDs are pretty expensive. iTV has a lot of other expenses that are not in the iPod.

It has HDMI, optical audio, an OS to handle Front Row, etc, chipsets to handle H.264 in High Def, Wifi, ethernet, USB. For $299 and its size, it is a guarantee that the hard drive is not for DVR.

However, as Cringley said in his recent column, a novel use for the USB port would be an iSight camera. Use your iTV to do video chat without the need for a computer to be on. This way, if PC people buy iTV they can chat amongst other iTV users as well as Mac users. Increases use of iChat in the market place.

[FaasNat]

let's hope iTV + iTunes has the functionality to outperform the unbox + TiVo solution.

I'm not concerned at this point, I'm sure this is a "let's play catch-up" move whereas Apple has been designing and integrating their services behind the scenes for well over a year now.
Here's hoping iTV picks up live TV recording capabilites with a nice TV guide (like TiVo's).
this is supposed to read apple and TiVo partnership, not amazon and Tivo, dangit
Maybe Apple will just have to buyout TiVo. Hasn't that been a long standing rumor? Then after that, they can buy Amazon, eBay, and more! :D

[Yvan256]

However, as Cringley said in his recent column, a novel use for the USB port would be an iSight camera. Use your iTV to do video chat without the need for a computer to be on. This way, if PC people buy iTV they can chat amongst other iTV users as well as Mac users. Increases use of iChat in the market place.

Isn't the iSight a FireWire camera? I was thinking the USB port would be for external hard drives.

[balamw]

Isn't the iSight a FireWire camera? I was thinking the USB port would be for external hard drives.
The current built-in iSights use USB.

B

[mdntcallr]

hey apple ought to do some sort of deal with tivo for DVR functionality.

and for itunes integration.

well maybe even buy tivo. just a thought

[nagromme]

From the Unbox review:
Riiight....
He didn't say the Unbox problem was his bandwidth, he said it was NOT his bandwidth: some problem on Amazon's end, like server overload.

[ddrueckhammer]

I don't even think the 802.11g exists for Tivo.

One of the easiest ways to get 802.11g on a Tivo series 2 is to get a USB to Ethernet adaptor and hook it up to an Airport express. I have this setup since I already was using the Airport to stream music to my stereo and it works flawlessly. The USB might be the slowdown here though as I think it might be USB 1...

[ddrueckhammer]

He didn't say the Unbox problem was his bandwidth, he said it was NOT his bandwidth: some problem on Amazon's end, like server overload.

I'm not sure if Amazon's servers are overloaded or they just throttle their downloads but i didn't get any faster than 2.4Mbps on my 5.0Mbps connection. I would get the 15Mbps connection from Verizon Fios but I find that many sites limit download speeds to conserve bandwidth so what is the point? If Apple would offer a rental service, I would be all over it.

[DarkNexus]

Isn't Tivo USA-only?


Tivo can and does work fine in Canada

[HecubusPro]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo....

I love my TiVos (I have three DirecTiVos and only two Macs) Now I won't know what to lust after, the iTV or the TiVo Series 3...

Anyhow, even though TiVo runs on Linux, they've aligned themselves with Windows Media, with their adoption of WMV DRM for TiVo to Go.


FWIW I think Apple has a good supplier of 1.8" drives too. :p Could be a 30 GB 1.8".

I would say go for whatever has the best value with the products you want. If amazon offers HD content to go along with the tivo 3 then it sounds like a great idea--assuming they can work out the problems unbox is having right now (until they do, I wouldn't even consider using unbox.)

I don't have a tivo--never owned one, and I hope to never have one. So far, itv would be my choice as an HDTV owner.

[sonicboom]

So far, itv would be my choice as an HDTV owner.

Why? The iTV/iTunes service as described doesn't offer HD... just "near DVD" quality (which is considerably less).

[HecubusPro]

Why? The iTV/iTunes service as described doesn't offer HD... just "near DVD" quality (which is considerably less).

HD content will be coming on itv.

[Westside guy]

Also, most Tivo users are actually using it through DirecTV. Only 35% of Tivo users have a standalone box.

Please provide a source for this. When DirecTV moved away from Tivo, the stories I read quoted Tivo losing 5-10% of their base - NOT 65%.

In my circle there's only one DirecTV Tivo user, while there are six standalone Tivo owners (don't think I've left anyone out...).

[Westside guy]

I suspect that, if Unbox and Tivo team up, it'll be a Windows only solution - probably managed similarly to how Tivo shows can be put on the iPod right now.

Clunky, in other words.

I've been a Tivo fanboy for 3-4 years now; but they're pretty much running in place. A better alternative is likely to come along soon - at that point Tivo will no longer be getting my $20 a month (2 Series2 Tivos). The Series3 boxes are currently way too pricey for me to even consider.