words that just shouldn't be [Archive]

Spike Spiegel

Apr 8, 2003, 10:20 AM

I think the idiots who use stupid words and stupid word combinations should be eliminated. What follows is an overheard converstation from the res caf at my college.
Random stupid kid: Ima get sum hot chocolate
Stupid lackey: you should put milk instead of marshmallows, kid
R.S.K.: NA, YO. MARSHMALLOWS IZZZZZ MILK.
:eek: ...........
Also I think the word Holla (or hollah, or holler) should be done away with completely as it has been abused to the point wearing dark sunglasses and saying that it fell into doorknobs. It shouldn't be possible to have an enitre converstaion with just ONE word, no matter how many different inflections you use.

And, apparently, the word belligerent (or beligerant, as it is spelled in some circles:eek: :eek: ) has ceased to be a useful word for describing behavior, as it now means drunk...

I may be done ranting...hang on........hmmmm.......................yup, im done:)

Oh, one more thing. For people who like making fun of the dregs of our society, I encourage you to check out an upcoming site I'm working on with some friends called cyborgity.com. It's going to be web-comic based, illustrating our adventures in exploring the deterioration of the human race. As of last night, we finished inking several comics, and probably in the next month, the site will be up and running. Here's a peek at our nifty Header... its actually two posts down because i suck.:D

mrjamin

Apr 8, 2003, 10:23 AM

there are some really funny words in other languages that really shouldnt exist - there's a little-used german verb which means "to beat a badger". Hmm, now i wonder why its never used?

<offtopic>While i'm talking about verbs, the justification for not splitting infitives (i.e. "to boldly go" is considered wrong; should be "to go boldly") is due to the fact that infitive verbs in latin are one word, as opposed to the "to [verb]" in English. As you can see this is crap, because we're not talking Latin, it's english, why shouldn't we??

Correct me if i'm wrong, but in the US the postal service deliver the mail, in the UK Royal Mail deliver the post. Explain that!!</offtopic>

Spike Spiegel

Apr 8, 2003, 10:34 AM

oops, didnt do it right. Here it is...

AlphaTech

Apr 8, 2003, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by scem0
well, I can tell you right now, nobody says winningest in Austin,
Texas - or all of Texas for that matter.

One word I would love to see go would be ******. When people
use this word, it annoys the crap out of me. :)

Methinks thou does protest too much... heh

FYI the word ****** has more then one meaning you know. In times past, a fagot was a bunch of bound sticks. The extra 'g' changes the meaning from the original, but they sound the same.

SYLLABICATION: fag·ot
PRONUNCIATION:fag' et
VARIANT_FORMS:also fag·got
NOUN: 1. A bundle of twigs, sticks, or branches bound together. 2. A bundle of pieces of iron or steel to be welded or hammered into bars.

TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: fag·ot·ed also fag·got·ed , fag·ot·ing , fag·got·ing , fag·ots , fag·gots
1. To bind into a fagot; bundle. 2. To decorate with fagoting.

ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, from Old French, from Old Provençal, possibly from Vulgar Latin *facus, from Greek phakelos, bundle.

As for words that should not be.... microsoft... heh

wdlove

Apr 8, 2003, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by eyelikeart
maybe useless threads...

What threads would you target? Please not our/your favorites! ;)

Giaguara

Apr 8, 2003, 11:31 AM

"microsoft". that should be banned. really. if i had a peecee, i'd make that microsoft - free running only *BSD and/or Linux in it.

and if i think about the word "microsoft" not as with computers.. well, even that way it really isn't impressive. yucky.

"real basic". it sounds so "really basic", i mean .. moron.

"wellness". okay finally a non-computer term but it just sounds so idiotic.

wdlove

Apr 8, 2003, 11:35 AM

I would like to see alot of the politically correct words not uses any longer or use them in properly. Such as "gay" which means happy.

evoluzione

Apr 8, 2003, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by mrjamin
Correct me if i'm wrong, but in the US the postal service deliver the mail, in the UK Royal Mail deliver the post. Explain that!!</offtopic>

~cracks up~ you're on to something there mate.

in my humble opinion (sorry, don't like acronyms ;) ) the words winningest, and gotten, should not be used, maybe it's because I've been brought up in england, and they just aren't words there. They're bad, grammatically.
I try not to use the word "got" too, there really is no need for it, it's just laziness.

having said all that, my command over the English language, is diabolical :rolleyes: call me what you will, but i do try and speak proper english, like what i should. ;)

eyelikeart...not that useless of a thread is it? people are discussing, isn't that the aim?? :)

medea

Apr 8, 2003, 02:56 PM

something that often bothers me is when people are saying a number, such as a phone number, and the pronounce the 0 as an o instead of zero, o is a letter people not a number, it's zero.....I mean you don't see people dropping the si off of 6 do you.

Oh and let's not get started with the whole chat/IM/text messaging crap.....
I luv u 2 so don't h8 me

beez7777

Apr 8, 2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by barkmonster
aluminum

it sounds wierd everytime I hear it pronounced like that.

It's Aluminium (AL-YOU-MIN-E-UM)

always has been, always will be :D

i don't understand why aluminum would be pronounced (AL-YOU-MIN-E-UM). doesn't make any sense to me.

there is an alternate spelling of it though, "aluminium" in which it's pronounced how you say it is. but i think if you were to see the word aluminum in a book its pronounced "al-OO-min-um" (caps for emphasis)

tcolling

Apr 8, 2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by AlphaTech
Methinks thou does protest too much... heh

FYI the word ****** has more then one meaning you know. In times past, a fagot was a bunch of bound sticks. The extra 'g' changes the meaning from the original, but they sound the same.

SYLLABICATION: fag·ot
PRONUNCIATION:fag' et
VARIANT_FORMS:also fag·got
NOUN: 1. A bundle of twigs, sticks, or branches bound together. 2. A bundle of pieces of iron or steel to be welded or hammered into bars.

TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: fag·ot·ed also fag·got·ed , fag·ot·ing , fag·got·ing , fag·ots , fag·gots
1. To bind into a fagot; bundle. 2. To decorate with fagoting.

ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, from Old French, from Old Provençal, possibly from Vulgar Latin *facus, from Greek phakelos, bundle.

As for words that should not be.... microsoft... heh

You know, I'm thinkin' that if you said to your buddy, "Go get me a fagot to burn, I want to start a fire", chances are you might be accused of political incorrectness.

The English (not necessarily referring to the Queen's English, for you Brits) language is indeed the most colorful and poorest way of communicating human beings have ever developed. My favorite example is the following two sentences, which are phonetically equivalent, yet opposite in meaning.

"I'm going to a good old-fashioned barn raising."
"I'm going to a good old-fashioned barn razing."

Like every episode of Three's Company, all each collection of words we attempt to put together can only muster confusion and misinterpretation. I've never trusted that what I hear is 100%what the speaker intended. (One of the reasons for so many flame wars, methinks.)

Oh, and by the way, two of my pet peeves:

"Irregardless" - Not a word, the word is "regardless".

"I could care less" - This phrase is supposed to state the lack of care, but by discluding the negative, it simply means that one cares to some unknown degree. The phrase is "I couldn't care less", which means that the caring is of the smallest possible degree.

crankopotamus

Apr 8, 2003, 04:01 PM

I never thought I'd see the day when this knowledge would come in handy. My degree is in technical theatre (stage management), but my school made all techies take some acting classes and all actors take some basic tech classes.

In Voice & Movement, we learned Standard American English, which was essentially unlearning our regional accents. The "Y" sound, as in the word You, is known as the jot in the International Phonetic Alphabet. Just so you don't think I'm making this up. Anyway, according to the teacher, one is supposed to stick in a jot (pronounced yot) before the letter U in most words. So:
Tuesday = Tyoosday
Tuba = Tyooba
Student = Styoodent
Never mind what people say to me when I talk like that.

But the teacher was careful to point out that you can't put a jot after the letter L, because your tongue and palate aren't in the right place after saying the L to say the jot. It's too rich. So aluminum is, in fact, pronounced al-oo-min-um.

-Crankopotamus

PS How about "nuc-u-lar"? Makes me cringe whenever Dubya says it.

tcolling

Apr 8, 2003, 04:04 PM

I also just remembered that in England, a fag is a cigarette (at least I think). I can see "I'm going to go burn a fag" is another one I wouldn't want to hear.

MacFan25

Apr 8, 2003, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by crankopotamus PS How about "nuc-u-lar"? Makes me cringe whenever Dubya says it.
Yeah, I've noticed he says that, too. lol

As for aluminum, I have always pronounced it just like it looks - a-loo-min-um

shadowfax

Apr 8, 2003, 04:11 PM

'i "brang" my lunch today' is annoying to me. it's "brought."

'"y'all" get on outta here' is annoying, and i get too much of it here in TX.

jelloshotsrule

Apr 8, 2003, 04:20 PM

tcolling

great calls on irregardless and i could care less

those damn fools!

w00t!

crazy hackers

shadowfax

Apr 8, 2003, 04:25 PM

i hate when beer drinkers pronounce "draught" with the "ought" ending. it's pronounced "draft," for goodness' sake!

lol.

wdlove

Apr 8, 2003, 04:29 PM

I get kidded here in Boston for my accent, they call it a southern accent. I grew up in southwestern Ohio. The word that causes laughs is washington, say I pronounce it warshintington. To me it sounds normal, but now I'm conscious of the difference! :p

evoluzione

Apr 8, 2003, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
'i "brang" my lunch today' is annoying to me. it's "brought."
unless it's bought ;)
that brings up a whole other issue with the word bring. i've noticed in the states, people use the word "bring" when they should really use "take"
for example, "bring the cutlery to the dining table" when you are in the kitchen for example, it should be "take the cutlery to the dining table". Just the differences betwen American English, and English? or do some of you Americans agree?

oh, and to "borrow" a cigarette off someone, in England, a lot of people say, "can I bum a fag?" which can be taken a totally different way! Also, the word "******" is also a type of dumpling in food. nice.

I do like the word "thunk" though ;)

as for aluminium, i've started to say the American pronunciation, maybe it's quicker to say, maybe I'm getting lazy, but certainly when talking to Americans, or reading it even, I say aloominum, whereas the correct English is al-yoo-min-ium, the spelling does have the extra i in it, and also I do pronounce the "jot" even though I didn't know it existed until crankopotumas pointed that one out :) cheers

evoluzione

Apr 8, 2003, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
i hate when beer drinkers pronounce "draught" with the "ought" ending. it's pronounced "draft," for goodness' sake!

lol.

people really say that?????

wow, in nyc a lot of people say "tap" heh, i say "draft".

deryk

Apr 8, 2003, 04:51 PM

shadowfax

Apr 8, 2003, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by evoluzione
people really say that?????

wow, in nyc a lot of people say "tap" heh, i say "draft". hmmm, shouldn't it be draught? with an "a"???
god, i am ashamed to call myself a human being. yeah, i think i misspelled it. i'll edit my post if you edit yours :D

evoluzione

Apr 8, 2003, 05:03 PM

Shadowfax....nice one, lol ;)

shadowfax

Apr 8, 2003, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by evoluzione
Shadowfax....nice one, lol ;)
seriously, and this is like the worst place to do something stupid like that. i am bowing my head in shame.

"nuke-you-lar" is definitely my most vehemently hated one, though, as you guys pointed out, because so many famous brinksmen (and more) like Eisenhower and GW (ok, so he isn't really much of a brinksman, but hey!) use it. it sounds so unintelligent, coming from the "leader of the free world."

evoluzione

Apr 8, 2003, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
seriously, and this is like the worst place to do something stupid like that. i am bowing my head in shame.

"nuke-you-lar" is definitely my most vehemently hated one, though, as you guys pointed out, because so many famous brinksmen (and more) like Eisenhower and GW (ok, so he isn't really much of a brinksman, but hey!) use it. it sounds so unintelligent, coming from the "leader of the free world."

don't fret, i'll keep it quiet ;)

so which came first? the word "nuke" or "nuke-you-lar? i can't remember who it was now, a few years back, there was a politician, vice-pres perhaps? who was in a classroom and he "corrected" the word potato in the blackboard by adding an e onto the end, thus making "potatoe". good one.

(and yes, i say blackboard, we used to have blackboards and whiteboards at school.) digressing a li'l here, i like to think i'm not racist, but i say "black" not "african-american", i don't know whether someone is from africa or the west indies, is that wrong of me?

shadowfax

Apr 8, 2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by evoluzione
so which came first? the word "nuke" or "nuke-you-lar? i can't remember who it was now, a few years back, there was a politician, vice-pres perhaps? who was in a classroom and he "corrected" the word potato in the blackboard by adding an e onto the end, thus making "potatoe". good one.
that was Bush senior's Vice Pres, i can't think of his name.. Dan Quayle, methinks.

he's a sharp tack. he was just taught it funky in school.

Rower_CPU

Apr 8, 2003, 05:39 PM

Here's a couple more words with funny pronunciations:

realtor - RI-luh-ter
jewelry - JOO-luh-ri

scem0

Apr 8, 2003, 05:43 PM

King Cobra

Apr 8, 2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by Spike Spiegel
It shouldn't be possible to have an enitre converstaion with just ONE word, no matter how many different inflections you use.
Most clever line I've seen in this thread.

Alpha, perhaps you remember:
"Roasting [newbies] on an open fire..."

There's also the "poinsettia" mishaps. My father likes to pronounce it correctly. I'm somewhere in the middle of
/poin seh' tuh/ (incorrect) and
/poin se' ti uh/ (correct).

shadowfax

Apr 8, 2003, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by scem0
Well, I actually knew all that, and I wouldn't mind if someone
said 'I'm gunna throw this fagot in the fire'.... umm.... well,
scratch that. I wouldn't mind people saying 'I'm gunna pick up
a fagot of sticks', but if someone says '**** that gay fagot whore'
then it would make me mad. :)
well, i would be plenty offended no matter what word you put in that phrase.

**** that gay stanky twanky whore is just as nasty.

scem0

Apr 8, 2003, 05:51 PM

What is so bad about 'my twankies look stanky on the benz'?

It isn't offensive or anything... It is just confusing.

boskie

Apr 8, 2003, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by tcolling
I also just remembered that in England, a fag is a cigarette (at least I think). I can see "I'm going to go burn a fag" is another one I wouldn't want to hear.

I've known people to say: can i bum a cigarette? so i think you know where i'm going with that :eek: :mad: :rolleyes: :) :p :D

shadowfax

Apr 8, 2003, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by scem0
What is so bad about 'my twankies look stanky on the benz'?

It isn't offensive or anything... It is just confusing.

nothing. i said you could put darn near anything in the phrase and make it sound bad. that was just the first example i thought of.

evoluzione

Apr 8, 2003, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by King Cobra
There's also the "poinsettia" mishaps. My father likes to pronounce it correctly. I'm somewhere in the middle of
/poin seh' tuh/ (incorrect) and
/poin se' ti uh/ (correct).

yeah that's another one, i always say poin se ti ah, it has an i in it, so i presume it should be pronounced right? :)

mcrain

Apr 8, 2003, 06:42 PM

Get rid of the words, "God, Jeweh, Jehovah, Allah, Buddah, Vishnu, etc..." and every other form of the concept of a diety.

Get rid of those and you eliminate a huge amount of hate in this world, as well as many wars.

shadowfax

Apr 8, 2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by mcrain
Get rid of the words, "God, Jeweh, Jehovah, Allah, Buddah, Vishnu, etc..." and every other form of the concept of a diety.

Get rid of those and you eliminate a huge amount of hate in this world, as well as many wars.

that would be deities, and no, hate is not in words, it's in hearts, sorry.

bousozoku

Apr 8, 2003, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by evoluzione
unless it's bought ;)
that brings up a whole other issue with the word bring. i've noticed in the states, people use the word "bring" when they should really use "take"
for example, "bring the cutlery to the dining table" when you are in the kitchen for example, it should be "take the cutlery to the dining table". Just the differences betwen American English, and English? or do some of you Americans agree?

oh, and to "borrow" a cigarette off someone, in England, a lot of people say, "can I bum a fag?" which can be taken a totally different way! Also, the word "******" is also a type of dumpling in food. nice.

I do like the word "thunk" though ;)

as for aluminium, i've started to say the American pronunciation, maybe it's quicker to say, maybe I'm getting lazy, but certainly when talking to Americans, or reading it even, I say aloominum, whereas the correct English is al-yoo-min-ium, the spelling does have the extra i in it, and also I do pronounce the "jot" even though I didn't know it existed until crankopotumas pointed that one out :) cheers

Ohhhh yes.

Take and bring, go and come. Americans constantly seem to not know where they are. ;)

We Japanese had settled the aluminium/aluminum issue long ago--it's alumi. :)

What about learned and learnt? It used to be acceptable in the states to say learnt, but it's fallen from fashion now.

wdlove

Apr 8, 2003, 07:52 PM

shadowfax

Apr 8, 2003, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by wdlove
They are both intelligent men. Their pronunciations are a result of where they were born and grew up. As I've mentioned before, it's an accent. I'm sure Bill Clinton had his own unique pronunciations, but not mention! :(

Valium and Vaalium

Creek and Crek

i disagree that it is an accent. an accent is accenting the syllables differently. nuke-you-lar is not changing the emphasis or saying the vowel differently, it's actually transposing the letters. as a matter of fact, it's even more than that. it would have to be "neucular." same with "warshington." you're not using just a different syllable, you're adding a consonant sound in that frankly isn't there.

i have seen different rules for pronunciations of words, but nowhere is "new-cue-lar" accepted.

i know those men were perfectly intelligent, but it's a shame if you can't teach an old dog new tricks. you can be taught to say something differently.

one that kills me here in Austin is "Guadalupe."
i spent most of my life in New Mexico. it's pronounced "gwad uh loo pay," more or less. here in Austin, people will not understand you if you say that. you have to say "gwad uh loop." it's like a repudiation of the cultural intelligence of the city.

wdlove

Apr 8, 2003, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
i disagree that it is an accent. an accent is accenting the syllables differently. nuke-you-lar is not changing the emphasis or saying the vowel differently, it's actually transposing the letters. as a matter of fact, it's even more than that. it would have to be "neucular." same with "warshington." you're not using just a different syllable, you're adding a consonant sound in that frankly isn't there.

i have seen different rules for pronunciations of words, but nowhere is "new-cue-lar" accepted.

i know those men were perfectly intelligent, but it's a shame if you can't teach an old dog new tricks. you can be taught to say something differently.

one that kills me here in Austin is "Guadalupe."
i spent most of my life in New Mexico. it's pronounced "gwad uh loo pay," more or less. here in Austin, people will not understand you if you say that. you have to say "gwad uh loop." it's like a repudiation of the cultural intelligence of the city.

You are probably correct shadowfax. I will disagree on you saying the "those men were perfectly intelligent." Born with intelligence and are still with above average intelligence.

I find it very difficult to change the way I pronnounce words. Does that make me less a person?

evoluzione

Apr 8, 2003, 08:54 PM

so how many of you use the words "surname", and "fortnight"? I use them all the time, and I get the impression that a lot of people don't know what they mean

shadowfax

Apr 8, 2003, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by wdlove
You are probably correct shadowfax. I will disagree on you saying the "those men were perfectly intelligent." Born with intelligence and are still with above average intelligence.

I find it very difficult to change the way I pronnounce words. Does that make me less a person? no. but you're not a public person. you can write people off who denounce your accent as uneducated etc., but presidents can't, and in this age, i think it's important for them to sound intelligent as well as be so. this is immensely helpful in getting elected, and while it's not always so important there, it is definitely importtant for one to be a good diplomat, which i feel a president must be.

i don't think people who say those words like that are stupid automatically; obviously i would never have guessed you say it like that, as you sound intelligent here, but i do thing that that "accent" makes you sound less intelligent in today's world, for what it's worth. many people don't notice. others notice but would never point it out. still others notice, may make fun of you now and then, but don't seriously form any ideas about you from it (that's me :D), and finally there are those that will rip you to shreds over it, or just not say anything about it but think you're dumb.

that latter one is of course unintelligent as well, but the bottom line is that you will project yourself better if you say "new-clear" and "wash" without the r. it's up to you; it doesn't honestly have much to do with anything when you aren't trying to please everyone, and who is but politicians/other public figures?

shadowfax

Apr 8, 2003, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by evoluzione
so how many of you use the words "surname", and "fortnight"? I use them all the time, and I get the impression that a lot of people don't know what they mean
i never use them, but i know what they mean :D

Kwyjibo

Apr 8, 2003, 09:03 PM

I"m not sure what you guys are complaining about these are all perfectly cromulent words. They can embiggen even the smallest soul.

shadowfax

Apr 8, 2003, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by Kwyjibo
I"m not sure what you guys are complaining about these are all perfectly cromulent words. They can embiggen even the smallest soul.
don't you mean "most smallest sole?"

G4scott

Apr 8, 2003, 09:21 PM

My english teacher has a funny saying.

She says a person is hanged, and a picture is hung. I wonder why she says that :D

She also says that profanity takes away the power of words.

evoluzione

Apr 8, 2003, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by G4scott
My english teacher has a funny saying.

She says a person is hanged, and a picture is hung. I wonder why she says that :D

She also says that profanity takes away the power of words.

she's right, on both counts. always wondered about the former though. with regards to the latter, i try not to swear, but it's !%#*in' difficult at times :rolleyes:

bbarnhart

Apr 8, 2003, 09:34 PM

Asterisk - It's pronounced as-terisk not as-trick.

February - It's pronounced feb-roo-ary not feb-u-ary.

shadowfax

Apr 8, 2003, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by G4scott
She also says that profanity takes away the power of words.

people who say that have a simplistic, ethnocentric view of the language. offending someone is not automatically bad, nor does it make you powerless. it's also not a mark of a lack of intelligence or laziness in self-expression.

saying, "oh, damn it!" for instance, is at least as powerful as "oh, rats," or "man!" or just plain "argh!"

in fact, it conveys the feeling people often have when they stub a toe, or get dumped by a girlfriend/boyfriend. your english teacher can suck it--er, i mean... uh... right.

evoluzione

Apr 8, 2003, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by bbarnhart
Asterisk - It's pronounced as-terisk not as-trick.

February - It's pronounced feb-roo-ary not feb-u-ary.

hah, what about "ask"....it's not "ax"
but that's a whole other ebonics thing.....

rice_web

Apr 8, 2003, 09:50 PM

Person A to Person B: "Can you borrow me a pencil?"
Person B to Person C: "Can you loan me a pencil?"
Person C to Person B: "Here you go."
Person B to Person A: "Ah, thanks for borrowing me a pencil."

Stupid people.

Nipsy

Apr 8, 2003, 11:25 PM

Ironical, a bastardization of ironic.

Pants, common, but just wrong.

Nipsy

Apr 8, 2003, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by MacAztec
That word makes sence.

"He was the most winningest runner of all time"
Cents is a word, describing a number of pennies
Scents is a word, describing a number of odors
Sense is a word, describing either logic, or a
feeling

Sence is not a word. Rather ironical in a thread about language!

anneleonard

Apr 9, 2003, 02:40 AM

You guys are really funny having these conversations about the "correct" pronounciation of this word or that word. Language is evolutionary, it develops over time and you can't say which is "right" and which is not. Americans have it rather easy on this front - the British possibly have the strongest regional dialects in the world, with widely varying pronounciations of words. Never can you say to someone "don't say it like that" because its all about regional differences. You just have to try and understand them as they are. If you don't like a word, its up to you, but you can't tell someone else how they should speak unless they ask your advice!

Oh and to clear something up- "gotten" is an old english word that was phased out in Britain but is still used in America- and the same goes for other words like "fall" for autumn. Its a very little known fact that linguists believe that americans speak more like old english people than the modern-day British! I'd really recommend a book by Bill Bryson called Mother Tongue about the english language - its really interesting.

pinks

Apr 9, 2003, 04:37 AM

A few things i've noticed...

Textual
Some of these are commonly misused the world over, some highlight OED English vs US English

accommodation not accomodation
aluminium not aluminum
sulphur not sulfer
adrenaline not epinephrine
aeroplane not airplane
colour not color
fibre not fiber
metre not meter (unit of distance, kilometre)
programme not program
cheque not check (form of payment, cheque-book)
catalogue not catalog
centre not center

Pronounciations

route: 'root' NOT 'rowt'
herb: 'herb' NOT 'erb'
Edinburgh: 'ed-in-bu-ru' NOT 'edin-bo-ro' OR 'eden-boo-ro'
Qatar: 'qua'tar' NOT 'catter' OR 'cadder'
'z': 'zed' not 'zee'
platter: 'pla-ter' NOT 'pladder' - yes, those are 'ts'
metre: 'meet-r' NOT 'meeder' - yup, that's a 't' as well - not a 'd'
quality news: 'BBC' NOT 'FOX' ;)
Loch (as in Ness): 'lo-cccchhhhh' (gutteral noise) NOT 'lock'

I could go on, but I'm beginning to bore myself.

Difference is diversity, diverity is cultural wealth. Looks like were all pretty well off! :p

- pinks

evoluzione

Apr 9, 2003, 05:31 AM

Originally posted by pinks
A few things i've noticed...

Textual

Pronounciations

- pinks

Basically all American versions of "Oxford English Dictionary" English. It's all down to dialects and accents that though, how many Brits drop the "t"? Americans (especially New Yorkers) replace that "t" with a "d". Having lived in NYC for a while now, I'm beginning to prefer "budder" to "bu'uh". :)

My original point, the reason for this thread, was on actual words, that have "evolved" shall we say, like "winningest", it just shouldn't exist. Thanks to anneleonard for pointing out that the word "gotten" should, possibly exist, I always thought it to be a "bad" word.

The word "burglarized" is another one.

pinks

Apr 9, 2003, 06:03 AM

Originally posted by evoluzione
I'm beginning to prefer "budder" to "bu'uh"

My original point, the reason for this thread, was on actual words, that have "evolved" shall we say, like "winningest", it just shouldn't exist. Thanks to anneleonard for pointing out that the word "gotten" should, possibly exist, I always thought it to be a "bad" word.

The word "burglarized" is another one.

Totally agree... double d better than no ts at all. Londoners are terrible for that. Also, I had always thought "gotten" to be non-word but I'll be happy to acknowledge that I was wrong. "Thusly" is not a real word... although I have heard it used.

Burglarized is an interesting one because there is a perfectly suitable word, "burgled", which is far easier to use, already in existence. I assume they mean the same thing, but again I'll happily acknowledge any misinterpretation.

Ooo, just thought of one: "disrespect" as in the usual Jerry Springer-esque "don't you disrespect me!" You can treat someone with disrespect, but can you disrespect someone? This is an evolution in terms of the use of a word, not necessarily in terms of the word itself. Does it count evoluzione? I'll tryu and do better next time. BTW, were you happy with the Man U. score last night or are you a die-hard LFC fan?

-pinks

evoluzione

Apr 9, 2003, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by pinks
BTW, were you happy with the Man U. score last night or are you a die-hard LFC fan?

-pinks

oh i'm a die-hard liverpool fan aright :) and i saw the real v man u game on espn, great game. good to see utd beaten after that terrible game on saturday morning :eek:

shadowfax

Apr 9, 2003, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by pinks
A few things i've noticed...

Textual
Pronounciations

I could go on, but I'm beginning to bore myself.

Difference is diversity, diverity is cultural wealth. Looks like were all pretty well off! :p

- pinks

Russia-- "rush uh" not "rush are"

MacFan25

Apr 9, 2003, 05:55 PM

I've heard people pronounce Wisconsin,
wes-consin.

The proper way is wis-consin, right?

Doctor Q

Apr 9, 2003, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
'i "brang" my lunch today' is annoying to me. it's "brought."Famous true story in my family:

My cousin: "I brang my lunch."
My aunt: "There is no such word as 'brang'."
My cousin: "Yes, there is, like lemon brang pie!"

MacFan25

Apr 9, 2003, 06:02 PM

Whenever people say, "where are we at?"

at isn't needed in the sentence. it annoys me sometimes when people say that. ;) :D

Doctor Q

Apr 9, 2003, 08:03 PM

I don't mind slang and I frequently use the wrong word on purpose just to be silly, e.g., "I wented to the store." But when I write (business letters, e-mail, technical documentation, proposals, etc.), I'm very careful about grammar, spelling, and the right choice of words.

The written mistakes that drive me crazy are affect vs. effect and its vs. it's. Meanwhile, I drive others nutty by forgetting whether to say farther or further. No matter how many times I'm told a simple rule to distinguish them, I've forgotten again.

In spoken language, "feb-you-ary" drives me batty. I always talk back to the TV when announcers say this.

This thread asks for words that shouldn't be. Maybe we could solve these problems by changing the words to match the way people use them. Get rid of affect and its and further and change February to Febuary!

King Cobra

Apr 9, 2003, 08:22 PM

I pronounce February as /Feh bri air' ie/.
:confused:

Farther deals with a physical condition.
Further deals with an abstract condition.

Farther: "The golf hole is farther than I thought."
Further: "Do not continue any further with this conversation." (example, of course. Do proceed...)

shadowfax

Apr 9, 2003, 08:26 PM

Nazism --> "Nazi-ism" or "knots ism"?

thoughts?

wdlove

Apr 9, 2003, 08:33 PM

shadowfax

Apr 9, 2003, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by wdlove
Sorry Shadowfax, but guess I happen to be the odd person. The worst I do when I'm very angry is "Oh shoot". I worked one summer at a steel mill on the railroad gang, had to listen to them. Every 5th word at least was a bad word.
well, there are certainly "obscene" (literally "off scene, private") words, like "*****," and so on, that should more or less be kept in private, but "oh shoot" really means the same thing as "oh *****." it's just that you think you are toning it down, but the thing you are expressing is exactly the same thing. "jeez" is the same thing. everyone knows you are saying "jesus." i laugh at those who use the "euphemisms" and then get mad at people for really cursing. however, i scowl at all the kiddies who don't have the respect for others to not use "foul" language around people whom they know to get offended by it.

jelloshotsrule

Apr 9, 2003, 08:44 PM

are you supposed to say "i'm standing IN line" or "i'm standing ON line"?

i personally think it's IN. i think that people who say "on" (including my girlfriend) are inferior to me, and should be pissed on

but what are your takes on it?

ps. don't be afraid to disagree with me on the subject... well. be afraid, just don't let that stop you from saying it anyways.

shadowfax

Apr 9, 2003, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
are you supposed to say "i'm standing IN line" or "i'm standing ON line"?

i personally think it's IN. i think that people who say "on" (including my girlfriend) are inferior to me, and should be pissed on

but what are your takes on it?

ps. don't be afraid to disagree with me on the subject... well. be afraid, just don't let that stop you from saying it anyways.

i have never heard "on line" refer to being physically in a line. you get in line, get in line. you skate with inline skates. they aren't online.

online refers to (well the internet for one) being also being connected to some network or other. the systems are coming online, the satellite is just coming online, and so on.

at the line in the grocery store, you become a part of the line. you are in it. you could be on it, but that would be kind of kinky.

and speaking of kinky, you can go ahead and piss on your gf.

e-coli

Apr 9, 2003, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by scem0
well, I can tell you right now, nobody says winningest in Austin,
Texas - or all of Texas for that matter.

Maybe that's because Texas is full of losers.

hehe...couldn't resist. ;) :D

scem0

Apr 9, 2003, 08:56 PM

Why would the poop king (or whatever he is) piss on her? :rolleyes: ;)

shadowfax

Apr 9, 2003, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by e-coli
Maybe that's because Texas is full of losers.

hehe...couldn't resist. ;) :D
it's only mostly full. Austin itself has a lot of wannabe intellectuals, and a few truly brilliant people :D

can't speak for many other places.

wdlove

Apr 9, 2003, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
well, there are certainly "obscene" (literally "off scene, private") words, like "*****," and so on, that should more or less be kept in private, but "oh shoot" really means the same thing as "oh *****." it's just that you think you are toning it down, but the thing you are expressing is exactly the same thing. "jeez" is the same thing. everyone knows you are saying "jesus." i laugh at those who use the "euphemisms" and then get mad at people for really cursing. however, i scowl at all the kiddies who don't have the respect for others to not use "foul" language around people whom they know to get offended by it.

I use it seldom though. It's the obscene words that bother me. No longer get mad, just prefer not to listen to the words. In my mind it doesn't mean the same, please don't laugh!

vniow

Apr 9, 2003, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by scem0
Why would the poop king (or whatever he is) piss on her? :rolleyes: ;)

Not the Poop King, Jello Hot Srule is the Presidential Candidate and Spiritual Leader of the PPP.

I think you're thinking of eyelikepoop, the Official Macrumors Poop Master.

G4scott

Apr 9, 2003, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
people who say that have a simplistic, ethnocentric view of the language. offending someone is not automatically bad, nor does it make you powerless. it's also not a mark of a lack of intelligence or laziness in self-expression.

saying, "oh, damn it!" for instance, is at least as powerful as "oh, rats," or "man!" or just plain "argh!"

in fact, it conveys the feeling people often have when they stub a toe, or get dumped by a girlfriend/boyfriend. your english teacher can suck it--er, i mean... uh... right.

Uh, I don't think she meant it like that. She's a very intelligent woman, and knows more about language than the average person. She just believes that using words like *****, *****, and other words like that on a regular basis take away the power of the words. People say stuff like "oh *****, I lost my sock", and it really takes away the power of the word. She doesn't think that offending people is bad. She does it all the time, actually. She just thinks that using very strong words for every little mishap takes away the power of words. You can say "darn it, I stubbed my toe", and it would be understood but saying: "holy mother ******** ***** of the all-mighty, I stubbed my toe!!!" is going overboard, unless you broke off your toe, or you're bleeding to death. Many of those strong words have very powerful meanings, and should be reserved for powerful feelings...

Of course, she also had a sign that said "profanity is a sign of a limited mind", until somebody wrote some profanity on it.

She just believes that people should find more creative ways to express themselves, like by saying "hay tortuga!" instead "oh my god!" or stuff like that...

Nipsy

Apr 9, 2003, 09:06 PM

I alomost forget my favorite:
indexes

The plural of index is indices, but thanks to the blithering idiots on TV (save for CNN's Richard Quest, who harps on users of 'indexes' as mouch as I do), indices will leave our lexicon in decades.

shadowfax

Apr 9, 2003, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by G4scott
Uh, I don't think she meant it like that. She's a very intelligent woman, and knows more about language than the average person. She just believes that using words like *****, *****, and other words like that on a regular basis take away the power of the words. People say stuff like "oh *****, I lost my sock", and it really takes away the power of the word. She doesn't think that offending people is bad. She does it all the time, actually. She just thinks that using very strong words for every little mishap takes away the power of words. You can say "darn it, I stubbed my toe", and it would be understood but saying: "holy mother ******** ***** of the all-mighty, I stubbed my toe!!!" is going overboard, unless you broke off your toe, or you're bleeding to death. Many of those strong words have very powerful meanings, and should be reserved for powerful feelings...

Of course, she also had a sign that said "profanity is a sign of a limited mind", until somebody wrote some profanity on it.

She just believes that people should find more creative ways to express themselves, like by saying "hay tortuga!" instead "oh my god!" or stuff like that...

there's a difference between saying "cursing is something you should do infrequently and with reservation" and unequivocally saying "cursing is a sign of a weak mind." the former is true, the latter is, as i said, simplistic. so, as long as she took her poster down and moderated her view, she's off the hook for me :D

shadowfax

Apr 9, 2003, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by Nipsy
I alomost forget my favorite:
indexes

The plural of index is indices, but thanks to the blithering idiots on TV (save for CNN's Richard Quest, who harps on users of 'indexes' as mouch as I do), indices will leave our lexicon in decades.

don't forget "this data" (these data) and of course

vertexes (vertices)
oasises (oases)

scem0

Apr 9, 2003, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by vniow
Not the Poop King, Jello Hot Srule is the Presidential Candidate and Spiritual Leader of the PPP.

I think you're thinking of eyelikepoop, the Official Macrumors Poop Master.

oh yes...... of course. How could I forget ;). Thank you for correcting me.

wdlove

Apr 9, 2003, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
there's a difference between saying "cursing is something you should do infrequently and with reservation" and unequivocally saying "cursing is a sign of a weak mind." the former is true, the latter is, as i said, simplistic. so, as long as she took her poster down and moderated her view, she's off the hook for me :D

I agree with you Shadowfax, thank you. ;)

Nipsy

Apr 9, 2003, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
don't forget "this data" (these data) and of course

vertexes (vertices)
oasises (oases)

Vertices is primarily used in mathematics and design. This should mean that those most likely to use the word are of a precise mindset, and less likely to misuse the word.

I would like to think that oasises just sounds incorrect to the few people who have the opportunity to use it, but I could be wrong.

As much as I understand the evolution of language (having lived for some time with a Ph.D. linguist), it irks me to see those who support misuse as a stage of said evolution.

To put things in MacRumors terms, IE accepts poor language, and parses it into pages. This allows developers to be less intelligent in their code, and get away with it. Mozilla interprets correct language correctly, and rejects "slang", but people shy away from it because it sometimes won't render thier page.

It may sound elitist, but the "common" will prevail over the "proper" every time, as the masses lazily try to avoid learning how to do it correctly.

The same thing that is happening in artificial languages is happening in natural languages. The correct use is more difficult to master than the incorrect use. People become well versed in the incorrect language, and slang, misuse, and grammatical nightmares are allowed to propagate.

Every time you see a typo of yours, and are too lazy to click the edit button, remember, you're part of the problem!

evoluzione

Apr 9, 2003, 11:41 PM

carrying on with the slight tangents of the thread.... i think i say "are you on line?", i used to say "you in the queue?", but no one here understands me at the best of times, let alone when i say that word heh. i do say "i'm in line" though, weird.

what does really annoys me though is people just don't seem to understand the difference with they're, their, and there.

oh, and abbreviations that are now commonplace, for example, "lite", or "till". I was horrified when my li'l sister (16, in England) emailed me and typed "till". it's an abbreviation of "until" and therefore should be 'til shouldn't it????

pinks

Apr 10, 2003, 03:40 AM

Definitely "in line" or preferably "in the queue." "On line" is something very different, i.e. connected to the internet

People who refer to "stadiums" really get on my tits. Everyone knows that the plural of stadium is "stadia," don't they?

I have heard that the plural of "fish" can either be "fish" - when refering to multiple fish of the same species, or "fishes" when refering to multiple fish of different species.

- pinks

Nipsy

Apr 10, 2003, 04:56 AM

While we're on weird plurals, can anyone explain "persons".

Is there a reason "people" didn't work for you?

Doctor Q

Apr 10, 2003, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
don't forget "this data" (these data)I do a lot of technical writing and editing, and work with others who do the same. I've argued for years with a coworker about whether data, when used in the computer field, is singular or plural. I claim that data is not only almost always singular in common usage ("the data is transmitted over the Internet"), but that it is perfectly acceptable in technical writing too. My coworker claims it must always be treated as plural ("the data are transmitted over the Internet") or readers will think less of us.

I found an old quote from Donald Knuth (one of the most respected computer scientists in the academic world) saying that he considers "data" to be a singular noun, but that wasn't enough to convince my coworker.

Anyone want to back me up on this?

shadowfax

Apr 10, 2003, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
I do a lot of technical writing and editing, and work with others who do the same. I've argued for years with a coworker about whether data, when used in the computer field, is singular or plural. I claim that data is not only almost always singular in common usage ("the data is transmitted over the Internet"), but that it is perfectly acceptable in technical writing too. My coworker claims it must always be treated as plural ("the data are transmitted over the Internet") or readers will think less of us.

I found an old quote from Donald Knuth (one of the most respected computer scientists in the academic world) saying that he considers "data" to be a singular noun, but that wasn't enough to convince my coworker.

Anyone want to back me up on this?

It's Latin, and not arguable as a technicality.

Datum is the singular. "Data" would be the plural form; it's a neuter second declension noun. end of story.

That said, most people, like yourself, use it as a singular noun, and thus consider it such. It's just not so; Latin is a dead language and doesn't evolve anymore. But keep on using it if feels natural, i slip when I'm speaking too.

I don't think that the computer world should be permitted to just change it to confuse people because they are too lazy to use the right forms. the field of computer science should have respect for language; there is no reason to blot out the singular form of data, thus making it a word of ambiguous number.

Doctor Q

Apr 10, 2003, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
I don't think that the computer world should be permitted to just change it to confuse people because they are too lazy to use the right forms. the field of computer science should have respect for language; there is no reason to blot out the singular form of data, thus making it a word of ambiguous number. Language changes. Holding on to obsolete forms is more likely to confuse or annoy people than using the terminology they themselves use. There is nobody who "should be permitted" or "shouldn't be permitted" to change how the word "data" is used in the computer world. I claim that it has already evolved and that my coworker didn't look up from an old dictionary long enough to notice. Dictionaries are suposed to reflect and record the language, not control it, and I think technical writing should do the same.

I'd be happy to use data plural (or datum singular) if it didn't make our technical writing read awkwardly and seem unnatural, but I think it does more and more.

As far as making the plurality ambiguous, yes, the change that evolved had that effect. As a computer scientist, I recognize this "loss of information". That's too bad, but we can't put the genie back in the bottle any more than we can bring back the formerly friendly connotation of the word "hacker". The evolution of the adjective "gay" has certainly added ambiguity!

I think the data/datum change is also happening to the words media/medium.

I understand exactly what Shadowfax is saying, but I draw the opposite conclusion from the facts. Anyone else care to comment?

scem0

Apr 10, 2003, 06:14 PM

Latin is a dead language and doesn't evolve anymore. But keep on using it if feels natural, i slip when I'm speaking too.
I don't think that the computer world should be permitted to just change it to confuse people because they are too lazy to use the right forms. the field of computer science should have respect for language; there is no reason to blot out the singular form of data, thus making it a word of ambiguous number.

We aren't speaking Latin though... Just because datum is derived
from either datum, or do (dare, dedi, datum), doesn't mean it
should hold Latin grammar rules. Data is singular in 99% of the
population's eyes, and people are acknowledging that:

data
(used with a sing. or pl. verb)
dictionary.com seems to think 'this data' is grammatically correct.

kylos

Apr 13, 2003, 01:20 PM

To throw in more confusion, www.m-w.com allows datums as well as data for the pluralization of datum.
And all you Britons, I will spell it pluralization not pluralisation, that just looks nasty. Well, ok, I won't bother you about replacing 's' with 'z', "er" with "re", skipping the 'e' in words such as judgement, changing "or" to "our", or any other pollution of the American :p language as long as you'll refrain from forcing your ways upon me. ;)

anneleonard

Apr 13, 2003, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by Kyle?
And all you Britons, I will spell it pluralization not pluralisation, that just looks nasty. Well, ok, I won't bother you about replacing 's' with 'z', "er" with "re", skipping the 'e' in words such as judgement, changing "or" to "our", or any other pollution of the American :p language as long as you'll refrain from forcing your ways upon me. ;)

Ooh get you! Why are you being so defensive? Who made the language in the first place? :D Methinks someone's got some trans-atlantic issues... wanna talk about it? (I'm a psychologist!)

kylos

Apr 13, 2003, 02:21 PM

Well, it sure wasn't the Britons who created the language. You resorted to borrowing from all your neighbors and now we share this jumbled mess of a language.

Nah, the trans-atlantic issues are for the fun of it.:D Always fun to throw in a little old-world/new-world conflict. Tehe.:D

p.s. In america, we spell it aluminum. Can't believe you would spell it aluminium. how dumb:p. Well at least I understand your pronounciation issues now.:D

mc68k

Apr 14, 2003, 12:19 AM

the word guesstimate:

do ppl just think this is cute or they sound intelligent using it? pick guess or estimate...they mean the SAME ******** thing. this 'word' should be abolished.

gots:

it's has...my best friend still uses this and it bugs me to NO end. kids were weaned off this in 3rd grade around here...

when ppl append an 's' to a word when it doesn't have one:

barnes and nobles
best buys

maybe because a lot of places have an 's' and they assume all of them do?

panties:

this word is stupid

Foxer

Apr 14, 2003, 01:49 PM

My biggest gripe is the word IRONIC. Ever since that damn Alanis Morrisette song. Not one thing she cited was actually irony. I've heard the the word used correctly maybe a dozen times. We are morons.

Nuclear. I know how it is "properly" pronounced. I worked on counter-proliferation matters for several years, representing all you Americans out there, and am sure that I consistently said nuke-u-lar, becasue that's just how I say it. The OED lists both pronounciations, which is good enough for me. It is just another weapon in the smug arsenal. I should know, because I am as smug as they get.

Irregardless isn't a word, but many stupid people who want to sound smart think it is.

Originally posted by MacFan25
I've heard people pronounce Wisconsin,
wes-consin.

The proper way is wis-consin, right?

As an immigrant to Wisconsin. i can verify that the pronounciation of the first syallable is WIS as in "wisker,' not WES as in "west." However, a native of this state will then go on to change the second vowel from an O as in "on" to an AAAA as in no other sound known on earth. Wiscaaaansin. It's really, really awful.

I am also annoyed by those people who pronounce the S in Illinois (Illi-NOISE).

Foxer

Apr 14, 2003, 01:58 PM

My favorite odd plural - those baby angels you see (such as cupid) in classical artwork. One is a Cherub, the plural of which is Cherubim. I love that!

My other bete noir is ending sentances with prepositions. Another way to feel smug.

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
are you supposed to say "i'm standing IN line" or "i'm standing ON line"?

i personally think it's IN. i think that people who say "on" (including my girlfriend) are inferior to me, and should be pissed on

but what are your takes on it?

ps. don't be afraid to disagree with me on the subject... well. be afraid, just don't let that stop you from saying it anyways.

I say "in line," but I went to school with a number of people from the NYC/NJ area - They most certainly stand ON line for movie tickets, etc... It sounds so awful.

Foxer

Apr 14, 2003, 02:10 PM

My last post, but I find this thread fascinating....

"Impact" as a verb is another one I hate. It is a noun. Important events have an impact on me, they do not impact me. I hear too many people with MBAs using it as a verb. They're the same people who use PARADIGM. Let's ban that one, too.

People who talk of a "myriad of" also need to be jailed. It's an adjective, not a noun. Functionally identically to "great many." There are a myriad people who use this word because it makes them sound more educated than they are. Usually, again, people with MBA's.

Originally posted by Doctor Q
Meanwhile, I drive others nutty by forgetting whether to say farther or further. No matter how many times I'm told a simple rule to distinguish them, I've forgotten again.

My simple rule, which you can add to the list of those you've forgotten: Farther deals specifically with physical distance and location. Farther down the road. I equate it with the word "Far." Other locations can be far away, not "fur away."

Doctor Q

Apr 14, 2003, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Foxer
My simple rule, which you can add to the list of those you've forgotten: Farther deals specifically with physical distance and location. Farther down the road. I equate it with the word "Far." Other locations can be far away, not "fur away." I know why I always forget the rule. My mother and farther didn't teach it to me early enough!

Did anyone mention utilize? It's another word, like myself, that people use incorrectly thinking it makes them sound impressive. Not to mention people who say "you and I" in an object phrase, such as The Doors saying "Till the stars fall from the sky for you and I" in the song Touch Me, a line that always makes me cringe.

evoluzione

Apr 14, 2003, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by mc68k
when ppl append an 's' to a word when it doesn't have one:

barnes and nobles
best buys

maybe because a lot of places have an 's' and they assume all of them do?

It annoys me when people say "Legos". It's very much an American thing, I was always under the impression that the plural of Lego, is, in fact, not existent. Now, Lego bricks, would make sense. Lego is the brand name.

Well, for a thread that escaped an premature death, I have learnt a lot (or is it learned???). I'm confused on some words now, but being English, living in NYC, I feel bad that I don't actually know much at all about the English language. Although my spelling seems to be way above a lot of people, which makes me happy :D

evoluzione

Apr 14, 2003, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q Not to mention people who say "you and I" in an object phrase, such as The Doors saying "Till the stars fall from the sky for you and I" in the song Touch Me, a line that always makes me cringe.

yeah, it should be "me and you" right? If my memory serves me right, I always look at it as if it's just me, so if I would say just "I" then that's what I would use if I add another person. Not clear, but, if I were to say "I went to the shops" then I would say "Monica and I went to the shops" not "me and Monica"...if only I knew the correct English to explain it properly :rolleyes:

shadowfax

Apr 14, 2003, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by evoluzione
yeah, it should be "me and you" right? If my memory serves me right, I always look at it as if it's just me, so if I would say just "I" then that's what I would use if I add another person. Not clear, but, if I were to say "I went to the shops" then I would say "Monica and I went to the shops" not "me and Monica"...if only I knew the correct English to explain it properly :rolleyes:

methinks 'tis "you and me".

evoluzione

Apr 14, 2003, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
methinks 'tis "you and me".

yeah, um, that's what i meant. crap. :rolleyes:

cheers mate :) I rest my case :p

Doctor Q

Apr 14, 2003, 10:52 PM

When I was little, I thought the owner of a nearby restaurant made a mistake because the place was named I 'n Joy Bagels. Obviously, it should have been Joy and I or Joy and Me. When I got older, I discovered it was a joke: I Enjoy Bagels. Duhhhh!

voicegy

Apr 15, 2003, 12:11 AM

In keeping with the flavor of the original post (words that just should not be), the Education community, of which I am a part of, is notorious for coming up with some amazing terms and phrases that never should have made it out of the gate.

One that has been bantered about of late in my district (it popped out of our current reform efforts with an emphasis on literacy) is this horrid word:

"Readerly."

I believe its actually being used as some kind of reference to a concept, as in "Our children participate in a readerly way during the literacy block."

Along with practically making up words out of thin air, Education is also full of phrases that fall in and out of vogue seemingly along with the seasons - or depending upon who is in power. Phrases such as:

"Off Task" "Realistic problem settings-anchored instruction." "Authentic Assessment" "Performance-Based Education" (funny, I thought it always was!) "Outcome-Based Math" "Needs-Based Assessments" "Multimedia interdisciplinary thematic units" "Context-oriented teaching"

and on it goes....

I've noticed a lot of "lovers of the language" in this post, so I include this link that I stumbled upon recently. I don't have a copy of it yet, but perhaps one of our on-line Brits can give us the "411" on what looks like a great book:

Mind the Gaffe - The Penguin Guide to Common Errors in English

"For all those who have ever feared being shown up by using one of the twenty worst words and phrases to be avoided at all costs, or confusing the complex with the complicated, this trouble-shooting guide to common errors in English should be able to help."

http://makeashorterlink.com/?J1CC22634

Doctor Q

Apr 15, 2003, 01:04 AM

Sorry, voicegy, your link produces the messageSession error!

A problem has occurred with your session on the Blackwell's Online Bookshop. This may be due to your current session timing out (timeout occurs after 30 minutes of inactivity) or due to a configuration problem with your Web browser's cache.

Please return to the Blackwell's Online Bookshop home page, to start a new session.

It was a link within your session at Blackwell's, so when your session expired, so did the URL.

By the way, I've been to Blackwell's shop in Cambridge. A great bookshop!

Rower_CPU

Apr 15, 2003, 01:45 AM

Originally posted by voicegy
In keeping with the flavor of the original post (words that just should not be), the Education community, of which I am a part of, is notorious for coming up with some amazing terms and phrases that never should have made it out of the gate.

One that has been bantered about of late in my district (it popped out of our current reform efforts with an emphasis on literacy) is this horrid word:

"Readerly."

I believe its actually being used as some kind of reference to a concept, as in "Our children participate in a readerly way during the literacy block."

Along with practically making up words out of thin air, Education is also full of phrases that fall in and out of vogue seemingly along with the seasons - or depending upon who is in power. Phrases such as:

"Off Task" "Realistic problem settings-anchored instruction." "Authentic Assessment" "Performance-Based Education" (funny, I thought it always was!) "Outcome-Based Math" "Needs-Based Assessments" "Multimedia interdisciplinary thematic units" "Context-oriented teaching"

LOL, I recognize some of those. ;)

A lot of them fall under the umbrella of redundancy, and verbosity for verbosity's sake. However, I see some of those as attempts at being subtle distinctions between schools of thought/models/theories. While non-sensical, they're born of a necessity for clarification.

What I actually like about edu-speak is the playfullness of it. For instance, prefixes and suffixes. The English language is so complex, yet so malleable that you can do some really fun stuff with it.

Take "-ness" for example. When added to the root word it means to typify or to contain the essence of. So, all the parts that make a chair a chair are its chair-ness. :)

Sure, some of it is pretty ugly and "un-correct", but language only grows through changes likes these.

anneleonard

Apr 15, 2003, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by voicegy
I've noticed a lot of "lovers of the language" in this post, so I include this link that I stumbled upon recently. I don't have a copy of it yet, but perhaps one of our on-line Brits can give us the "411" on what looks like a great book:

Mind the Gaffe - The Penguin Guide to Common Errors in English

If we knew what on earth a 411 was, then we might be able to help!:p

voicegy

Apr 15, 2003, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by anneleonard
If we knew what on earth a 411 was, then we might be able to help!:p

Actually, I put that term in there on purpose, wondering if the American slang term for "information" had jumped the pond. (we dial "411" on our phones to get Directory Information) Just having a little fun...

As to the link, I'm dreadfully sorry...didn't know that it would time out like that. When you get to the online store, simply perform a search for the book "Mind the Gaffe."

TTFN. I'm off to have a computerly day.

kylos

Apr 15, 2003, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by voicegy
In keeping with the flavor of the original post (words that just should not be), the Education community, of which I am a part of

A preposition beginning and ending a phrase? And such phrase used to indicate your membership in the education community? :) :D

Evoluzione, lego bricks? They've always been and always will be legos regardless of grammer. Dumb Americans. ;)

voicegy

Apr 15, 2003, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Kyle?
A preposition beginning and ending a phrase? And such phrase used to indicate your membership in the education community? :) :D

Evoluzione, lego bricks? They've always been and always will be legos regardless of grammer. Dumb Americans. ;)

Oh, HONESTLY! Such a tough audience!:(

Regarding my membership in the education community, I never claimed to be a teacher...as the Information Technology department liaison, I'm allowed a mistake or two...

BTW, isn't it spelled "grammar?":)

(all of this is quite fun, actually):p

kylos

Apr 15, 2003, 12:36 PM

Agghhhh! You got me! I can't believe I let that slip! *sigh* I guess I can't be perfect all the time...

kylos

Apr 15, 2003, 12:37 PM

...And yes, it is all quite fun.:)

Doctor Q

Apr 15, 2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by evoluzione
It annoys me when people say "Legos". It's very much an American thing, I was always under the impression that the plural of Lego, is, in fact, not existent. Now, Lego bricks, would make sense. Lego is the brand name.Sorry, but I saw the word Legos in Newsweek news magazine this week. I was going to say "Brand names aren't in the dictionary, so there's no authority to regulate their usage other than the whims of the owner". Then I discovered that Kleenex is at dictionary.com, defined as "a trademark used for a soft facial tissue". So I guess a dictionary CAN give rules for plurals (Kleenicies?). Dictionary.com does for Xerox, which they define as "a trademark used for a photocopying process", with xeroxes as the plural form.

I also looked up Lego and learned that it comes from Leg Godt, Danish for "play good" - I never knew that! But no rule for the plural form.

shadowfax

Apr 15, 2003, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
Sorry, but I saw the word Legos in Newsweek news magazine this week. I was going to say "Brand names aren't in the dictionary, so there's no authority to regulate their usage other than the whims of the owner". Then I discovered that Kleenex is at dictionary.com, defined as "a trademark used for a soft facial tissue". So I guess a dictionary CAN give rules for plurals (Kleenicies?). Dictionary.com does for Xerox, which they define as "a trademark used for a photocopying process", with xeroxes as the plural form.

I also looked up Lego and learned that it comes from Leg Godt, Danish for "play good" - I never knew that! But no rule for the plural form.

it strikes me that under similar logic condemning the use of "trademarks" as words, you could also condemn the use of names as words, like "Vidkun Quisling" or something. i think Legos is really fine. it's much more convenient to say "a box of legos" than to say, "i have a box of lego blocks," which honestly sounds like you're trying to make some fruity rhyme.

Doctor Q

Apr 15, 2003, 06:11 PM

Speaking of grammar and British-American differences, there is one British rule of grammar that is clearly superior to the American rule. Americans are supposed to write

The dogcow said "moof."
Did he really say "moof?"

whereas, as I understand it, the British style is

The dogcow said "moof".
Did he really say "moof"?

Obviously, the British got this one right. The period and question mark belong to my sentence, not to the quotation from Clarus the dogcow, so punctuation not attributed to the quotee rightly belongs outside the quotation marks. When I write technical documentation, I tend to cheat and use the British convention because otherwise the results are misleading.

Extreme example - a command that ends with a period in a sentence that also ends with a period:

At the command-line prompt, type "tar cvf test.tar .." <--- American(?)

At the command-line prompt, type "tar cvf test.tar ." <--- American(?)

At the command-line prompt, type "tar cvf test.tar .". <--- British

In general, anytime I put sentence punctuation inside quotation marks, people might take what's inside literally.

Who wants to join me in a mutiny against the American rulemakers?

kylos

Apr 15, 2003, 06:47 PM

Yeah, I always fudge on that rule as well when following the rule obfuscates my meaning.

wdlove

Apr 15, 2003, 07:37 PM

Doctor Q as you have noted I already have a mutiny against American rule makers! :p

Doctor Q

Apr 16, 2003, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by evoluzione
It annoys me when people say "Legos". It's very much an American thing, I was always under the impression that the plural of Lego, is, in fact, not existent. Now, Lego bricks, would make sense. Lego is the brand name.Originally posted by Doctor Q
Sorry, but I saw the word Legos in Newsweek news magazine this weekHere's an update on my report: I was referring to the use of the word LEGOs in an article about the garage-rock group White Stripes in the April 14 2003 Newsweek, which said they used animated LEGOs in their music video. That was page 57. Yesterday I flipped a few more pages and there on page 62 was an article about encouraging girls to be engineers, referring to "gender-neutral standbys like Lincoln Logs, Tinker Toys and regular LEGOs."

I think that your discussion about the word caused them to appear retroactively in Newsweek, since I've never noticed legos to be hot news topics before!

wdlove

Apr 16, 2003, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
Here's an update on my report: I was referring to the use of the word LEGOs in an article about the garage-rock group White Stripes in the April 14 2003 Newsweek, which said they used animated LEGOs in their music video. That was page 57. Yesterday I flipped a few more pages and there on page 62 was an article about encouraging girls to be engineers, referring to "gender-neutral standbys like Lincoln Logs, Tinker Toys and regular LEGOs."

I think that your discussion about the word caused them to appear retroactively in Newsweek, since I've never noticed legos to be hot news topics before!

You are bringing back great memories Doctor Q! I remember growing up playing with Erector Set, Lego, & Lincoln Logs. Thank you for the memories!;)

evoluzione

Apr 16, 2003, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
Here's an update on my report: I was referring to the use of the word LEGOs in an article about the garage-rock group White Stripes in the April 14 2003 Newsweek, which said they used animated LEGOs in their music video. That was page 57. Yesterday I flipped a few more pages and there on page 62 was an article about encouraging girls to be engineers, referring to "gender-neutral standbys like Lincoln Logs, Tinker Toys and regular LEGOs."

I think that your discussion about the word caused them to appear retroactively in Newsweek, since I've never noticed legos to be hot news topics before!

hahahaha, awesome. newsweek is american though, so of course they say legos ;) if i don't say lego bricks/blocks (which i don't usually) i use lego as both singular and plural. and just 'cause it's in there, doesn't mean it's true ;) :p

ohhh, what was that li'l track thing with the dumper truck???? Big Loader or something???? used to LOVE that!

Doctor Q

Apr 18, 2003, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
[B]In spoken language, "feb-you-ary" drives me batty. I always talk back to the TV when announcers say this.Just to show you how much this one bugs me, I read reviews of the previous concerts on the Foo Fighters current tour, so I'd know whether to expect them to play their song "February Stars" when I go to their concert tonight in Los Angeles. Luckily, it's not on their concert playlist. Otherwise, I figure I'd have to go up on stage and hand Dave Grohl a dictionary when he got to the slow "Feb... you... air... eee... stars" line in the chorus. I'm sure he'd appreciate the helpful correction.

Doctor Q

May 3, 2003, 01:38 PM

In a Newsweek article about SARS, a young lady is quoted about her disappointment at having her soccer team's trip to Canada canceled: "I was literally crushed." Unless the soccer coach actually sat on her while giving her the news, she thought literally adds emphasis, a common mistake. Literally means not figuratively.

Well, thanks for listening. I'm glad I had this chance to let off some steam, literally. I mean definitely! ;)

evoluzione

May 3, 2003, 01:50 PM

hahahaha, nice example.

i don't think i've ever actually said literally in that sense, well, the wrong sense anyways.

tcolling

May 5, 2003, 06:27 AM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
Speaking of grammar and British-American differences, there is one British rule of grammar that is clearly superior to the American rule. Americans are supposed to write

The dogcow said "moof."
Did he really say "moof?"

whereas, as I understand it, the British style is

The dogcow said "moof".
Did he really say "moof"?

Obviously, the British got this one right. The period and question mark belong to my sentence, not to the quotation from Clarus the dogcow, so punctuation not attributed to the quotee rightly belongs outside the quotation marks. When I write technical documentation, I tend to cheat and use the British convention because otherwise the results are misleading.

Extreme example - a command that ends with a period in a sentence that also ends with a period:

At the command-line prompt, type "tar cvf test.tar .." <--- American(?)

At the command-line prompt, type "tar cvf test.tar ." <--- American(?)

At the command-line prompt, type "tar cvf test.tar .". <--- British

In general, anytime I put sentence punctuation inside quotation marks, people might take what's inside literally.

Who wants to join me in a mutiny against the American rulemakers?

I'm American, and I learned to write 'The dogcow said "moof"'.

(Without the extra quotation marks: The dogcow said "moof".)

I'm also from Wisconsin. I hear Wes-consin all the time, but I think it's mostly from those who reside out of state. The real trick to pronouncing Wisconsin is to add an exaggerated nasal emphasis to the "con", a la Fran Drescher :p .

lmalave

May 5, 2003, 06:59 AM

I think they need to officially change the spelling of "colonel". It's just crazy for it to be pronounced the same way as "kernel". As someone who learned English as a second language this was the most messed up thing I can remember learning. All the other idiosyncracies in the language I can take, but that one goes way overboard.

evoluzione

May 5, 2003, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by lmalave
I think they need to officially change the spelling of "colonel". It's just crazy for it to be pronounced the same way as "kernel". As someone who learned English as a second language this was the most messed up thing I can remember learning. All the other idiosyncracies in the language I can take, but that one goes way overboard.

what about lieutenant? in England it's pronounced leff tenant, stupid eh?

iJon

May 5, 2003, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by medea
something that often bothers me is when people are saying a number, such as a phone number, and the pronounce the 0 as an o instead of zero, o is a letter people not a number, it's zero.....I mean you don't see people dropping the si off of 6 do you.

Oh and let's not get started with the whole chat/IM/text messaging crap.....
I luv u 2 so don't h8 me
man, i dont think i could ever stop saying o and 0 and mixing them up. its just built in or something. i have some white friends who say aight. i hate that, tryign to be wiggers or soemthing.

iJon

wdlove

May 5, 2003, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by lmalave
I think they need to officially change the spelling of "colonel". It's just crazy for it to be pronounced the same way as "kernel". As someone who learned English as a second language this was the most messed up thing I can remember learning. All the other idiosyncracies in the language I can take, but that one goes way overboard.

The English language has numerous idiosyncracies, another difficult one is to, too, and two! ;) They are all pronnunced the same.

evoluzione

May 5, 2003, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by wdlove
The English language has numerous idiosyncracies, another difficult one is to, too, and two! ;) They are all pronnunced the same.

how about cough, rough, bough, though, nought and thought?

man, no wonder i don't speak no proper english like what you lot do ;) (and i'm the english one haha)

Doctor Q

May 5, 2003, 10:06 PM

The words "wonderful" and "awful" originally meant "full of wonder" and "full of awe", making them essentially synonyms. So one or the other was an unnecessary duplicate, i.e., a "word that just shouldn't be". However, they both evolved in meaning and now they are antonyms! Isn't etymology fun?

scem0

May 5, 2003, 10:11 PM

My IPC teacher used a word that annoys me today:

Overage.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

TonicAngel

May 5, 2003, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by scem0
My IPC teacher used a word that annoys me today:

Overage.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Overage? Is that a word? I've heard of underage, as in "they are underage" (which now just looks odd to me right now...):rolleyes: Thank you for this thread, it made me laugh. :D I absoutely cannot stand to hear someone say, "I done it", or "Ain't me, iz him." ARGH!! It makes me want to just hit them. :mad: Original post: Who on earth says "winningest?"

scem0

May 5, 2003, 10:45 PM

She said overage in this context:

"We are grading on a 90 point scale, so I am giving y'all ten
points, so we can afford a little bit of overage."

:rolleyes: :)

lmalave

May 5, 2003, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by wdlove
The English language has numerous idiosyncracies, another difficult one is to, too, and two! ;) They are all pronnunced the same.

Yeah, that doesn't bother me as much. Spanish has some single syllable words that are pronounced the same and even spelled the same, but you put an accent over the vowel and it has a different meaning.

Whereas English is one of the most idiosyncratic languages, I think Spanish is one of the easiest. From speaking Spanish with non-native speakers I notice that the whole thing with assigning genders to inanimate objects is confusing. I didn't think about it in Spanish because it comes automatically. I got some flavor of the difficulty when I learned French, but even then it's no big deal because most objects have the same gender in Spanish and French, so it again came naturally.

TonicAngel

May 5, 2003, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by scem0
She said overage in this context:

"We are grading on a 90 point scale, so I am giving y'all ten
points, so we can afford a little bit of overage."

:rolleyes: :)
:D Okay, so "overage" is meaning over average? Or am I just not reading that correctly?
Oh nothing beats seeing someone write "morans" instead of morons, which is based on accent pronunciation.

Doctor Q

May 5, 2003, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by lmalave
I think Spanish is one of the easiest.Hawaiian has only 5 vowels and 8 consonants, consistent pronunciation, and no diacritic marks. We should all be able to learn it wikiwiki.

scem0

May 5, 2003, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by TonicAngel
:D Okay, so "overage" is meaning over average? Or am I just not reading that correctly?
Oh nothing beats seeing someone write "morans" instead of morons, which is based on accent pronunciation.

yeah, that is what I worked out the meaning to be but who knows... :rolleyes:

Rower_CPU

May 6, 2003, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
Hawaiian has only 5 vowels and 8 consonants, consistent pronunciation, and no diacritic marks. We should all be able to learn it wikiwiki.

Ah ah ah, not so fast. It does indeed have diacritic marks. They are:
'okina - ' (apostrophe)
kahako - - (bar over vowels)

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/6794/o-diacriticalmarks.html

Xero

May 6, 2003, 01:28 AM

ok these arent exactly words, but the way people say them.

PEL-LOW [pillow]
BAH-GLE [bagel]
BAGE [bag]
etc...

this stuff drives me nuts! how can people pronounce this stuff so strangely, its not that hard! ...man, this is what i get for living in Wisconsin...:rolleyes:

Stelliform

May 6, 2003, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by Xero
ok these arent exactly words, but the way people say them.

PEL-LOW [pillow]
BAH-GLE [bagel]
BAGE [bag]
etc...

this stuff drives me nuts! how can people pronounce this stuff so strangely, its not that hard! ...man, this is what i get for living in Wisconsin...:rolleyes:

I read a study not long ago that found people are developing more of a regional accent now. The trend throughout the 1900's was to not have a regional accent, but now the tide is turning the other way. I know that I have more of a Cajun accent than my parents. And you should hear my Nephew's Texas accent!

guitargeek

May 6, 2003, 09:30 AM

agreenster

May 6, 2003, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by guitargeek
When I was in school, I was always taught what you call the British style. The first one is just wrong, and I have never seen anybody use it, either. Weahd.

Not me. Im from the midwest, and we learned the rule --"Punctuation before quotation."

Read any American English publication or any American English language textbook and it wil be done this way. What do you mean you've never seen it done this way? Pick up a newspaper or magazine and check for yourself.

Personally however, I think I have to agree with the 'British' way of addressing the issue. It makes sense that the punctuation should follow the quotation because the punctuation refers to the statement, not the quote. However, I have to stick with the American way if I dont want to come off sounding like an idiot.

The one that gets me is how people don't know how to use there, their, and they're.

There is the book.
Those books are theirs.
They're reading some books.

People instead use 'there' for EVERYTHING and its quite annoying, especially here at MacRumors.

evoluzione

May 6, 2003, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by agreenster
The one that gets me is how people don't know how to use there, their, and they're.

There is the book.
Those books are theirs.
They're reading some books.

People instead use 'there' for EVERYTHING and its quite annoying, especially here at MacRumors.

have to agree with you there mate. it's a strange thing with me, if i've just met a girl, and rather than phoning whilst at work, she may email me, if she can't use the correct word like that, it's a big turn off. there are a few other words similar, that people always get wrong, to and too being one, where, were and we're being another.... is that a li'l too freaky of me? heh :)

tcolling

May 6, 2003, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by agreenster
Not me. Im from the midwest, and we learned the rule --"Punctuation before quotation."

Read any American English publication or any American English language textbook and it wil be done this way. What do you mean you've never seen it done this way? Pick up a newspaper or magazine and check for yourself.

Personally however, I think I have to agree with the 'British' way of addressing the issue. It makes sense that the punctuation should follow the quotation because the punctuation refers to the statement, not the quote. However, I have to stick with the American way if I dont want to come off sounding like an idiot.

I think I need to disagree. Check those textbooks again. Punctuation comes before quotation marks only in complete sentence quotes. Here's is a correct example of how quotation marks should be used:

Example 1:

"I want to say one thing to the American people. I want you to listen to me. I'm going to say this again: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky. I never told anyone to lie, not a single time. Never. These allegations are false."
- Bill Clinton

Bill Clinton said, "It means that there is not a sexual relationship, an improper sexual relationship, or any other kind of improper relationship."

Example 2:

Bill Clinton requested that the grand jury define "sexual relationship", "alone", and "stain".

"It depends on how you define 'alone'." - Bill Clinton

You'll note that all punctuation in the first example is located within the quotation marks, because the quotation is a complete sentence. In the second example, the quoted items are not in quotation marks, because the word is being highlighted and are not complete thoughts and/or sentences.

Ugg

May 16, 2003, 08:18 PM

Forte is one of my peeves. In the US it is pronounced fortay, that would obviously make it a verb in French. They pronounce the noun as fort.

Language is fluid though and English more so than any other. Does this altered pronunciation now mean that it is an American English word? How long in common usage before a foreign word with a changed pronunciation is accepted as native speech?

tazo

May 16, 2003, 08:24 PM

two of em; foyer and zealot.

isnt it FOY-YEAH, and ZEE-LIT

i hear a lot of FOY-YER and Zell-It

what do you guys think?

Doctor Q

May 17, 2003, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by tazo
two of em; foyer and zealot.

isnt it FOY-YEAH, and ZEE-LIT

i hear a lot of FOY-YER and Zell-It

what do you guys think?I think they are FOY-YAY and ZELL-IT. Foyer is French, so you'd only say FOY-YER if you mistook it for an English word and pronounced the YER as in LAWYER. A zealot is somebody who is zealous (like Mac fanatics!) and both words have the 'L' in the first syllable.

shadowfax

May 17, 2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
I think they are FOY-YAY and ZELL-IT. Foyer is French, so you'd only say FOY-YER if you mistook it for an English word and pronounced the YER as in LAWYER. A zealot is somebody who is zealous (like Mac fanatics!) and both words have the 'L' in the first syllable. on the other hand, with Foyer, you have not just a french word that is used as a french word within english (like faux pas), but a word that has been assimilated, so there is really nothing wrong with saying it like lawyer. same with fin de siecle. americans say FIN de SEEK el, not FIN de SYEH cluh, or howver it's done in the French.

as for zealot, though, i agree with you. you don't pronounce the "zeal" in the word like the stand-alone word (ZEEL), but as in "zealous" (ZELL)--words can change pronunciation when they change forms, heh.

tazo

May 17, 2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
on the other hand, with Foyer, you have not just a french word that is used as a french word within english (like faux pas), but a word that has been assimilated, so there is really nothing wrong with saying it like lawyer. same with fin de siecle. americans say FIN de SEEK el, not FIN de SYEH cluh, or howver it's done in the French.

as for zealot, though, i agree with you. you don't pronounce the "zeal" in the word like the stand-alone word (ZEEL), but as in "zealous" (ZELL)--words can change pronunciation when they change forms, heh.
]
those are the same responses I got from my englush teacher, although he says foyer :rolleyes: :) :)

shadowfax

May 17, 2003, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by tazo
]
those are the same responses I got from my englush teacher, although he says foyer :rolleyes: :) :) well, when anyone says foyer, they say foyer. the question is, does he say it "FOY er or "FOY ay"?

tazo

May 17, 2003, 08:56 PM

woops, i meant that he says it like foy-yer

shadowfax

May 17, 2003, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by tazo
woops, i meant that he says it like foy-yer me too. i'm glad too. it sounds fine. Fox Pass and motrox sound stupid, but foy yer and fin de seek el are fine, IMO.

scem0

May 17, 2003, 10:28 PM

That is how 95% of the people in the US say it (including me). If anyone gets mad at us for saying it 'wrong' - they are wrong, because they need to learn that words evolve.

shadowfax

May 17, 2003, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by scem0
That is how 95% of the people in the US say it (including me). If anyone gets mad at us for saying it 'wrong' - they are wrong, because they need to learn that words evolve. can you cite a source for that statistic?

tazo

May 17, 2003, 10:43 PM

don't forget that the majority of statistics are made up.

scem0

May 17, 2003, 10:45 PM

It was an educated assumption, not a statistic. But don't you think it is accurate? I don't think I've every heard anyone say anything other than 'foy-yer'.

Doctor Q

May 17, 2003, 10:55 PM

A lot of people pronounce the word mature as MUH-TOOR, but I think that sounds pretentious. I say MUH-CHURE.

Ugg

May 17, 2003, 10:56 PM

You discount the fact that many Americans speak French and Spanish and those people are likely to say foy-yay. Also, there are still regional and class influences in our speech patterns. While there are those who insist on a country wide pronunciation it is doubtful they will be successful.

Personally I say foy-yay and fin de se ecl. My french teacher would have killed me for saying it any other way:D Actually within France there are probably 10 different ways to pronounce any particular word. In the south, mais oui becomes beh wah. Go figure, huh!

Loan words tend to evolve on their own, much like forte and fortay or kinderrgarden instead of kinduhgartten, socker and socher, murlow and marelo.

There are always snobs out there who insist that their pronunciation is the only correct one.

Doctor Q

May 17, 2003, 11:01 PM

In the U.S., why do most national newscasters seem to speak with a California accent, even if they are based in the east? It's as if our "west coast accent" is the official language of television.

scem0

May 17, 2003, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by Ugg
You discount the fact that many Americans speak French and Spanish and those people are likely to say foy-yay. Also, there are still regional and class influences in our speech patterns.

There are always snobs out there who insist that their pronunciation is the only correct one.

Yeah, I think cultural background has a lot to do with the (my assumed) 5% of the people who say 'foy-yay', But I still maintain the stance that only about 5% of americans say 'foy-yay'. Maybe it is just in Texas, but I never hear it pronounced any other way other than 'foy-yer'.

btw this is my last post on a less than important word. ;)

scem0

May 17, 2003, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
A lot of people pronounce the word mature as MUH-TOOR, but I think that sounds pretentious. I say MUH-CHURE.

I agree. It does sound very pretentious to say it Muh-toor. I, and most people, say 'ma-chure'.

tazo

May 17, 2003, 11:37 PM

shadowfax

May 17, 2003, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by scem0
It was an educated assumption, not a statistic. But don't you think it is accurate? I don't think I've every heard anyone say anything other than 'foy-yer'. having lived in numerous places in the south of the US, i can agree--based on that, i would assume more like 99%, lol. no one i know, at all, has said foyay. i haven't even heard it on TV or anything, though, granted, that's not a word you hear much.

evoluzione

May 18, 2003, 03:35 PM

people really pronounce faux pas as fox pass???? i agree with scem0 that words tend to evolve but that's just poor.

just out of interest, how do you all say Notre Dame??? It used to make me cringe when i heard it pronounced Noduh Dame and not Nohtrruh Dahm (or a close approximation)

Ugg

May 18, 2003, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by evoluzione
people really pronounce faux pas as fox pass???? i agree with scem0 that words tend to evolve but that's just poor.

just out of interest, how do you all say Notre Dame??? It used to make me cringe when i heard it pronounced Noduh Dame and not Nohtrruh Dahm (or a close approximation)

No truh daam. the e at the end of a french word is silent for the most part. It really depends upon where you are in France.

We say madaam (madame) but say daym for dame.

As far as Notre Dame the university, well I think that most people say daym, but if you're talking about the cathedral on the ile de paris then you should say no truh daam.

The English have their own quirks about language too. If you ever listen to the BBC you'll notice that Montana becomes Montaner. St. John becomes Sinjin which is a close approximation of the french pronunciation.

Doctor Q

May 18, 2003, 04:13 PM

noo-OR-linz? NOO-or-leenz? loo-e-zee-anna? looz-e-anna?

scem0

May 18, 2003, 04:22 PM

looz-e-anna is pretty bad.... ;).

I say 'Notre-daam'.

pinks

May 18, 2003, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
noo-OR-linz? NOO-or-leenz? loo-e-zee-anna? looz-e-anna?

a. nee'oo-or-leenz

b. loo-ee-zee-anna

Also, "foyer" isn't a widely used term in the US, where they generally use the term "lobby."

I did get into a spot of linguistic bother when I was visiting Texas a couple of years ago.

I wanted to pay for some petrol at the petrol station with a travellers cheque. Now, after a few quizical looks, subsequent phoning of head office to confirm that they could accept travellers cheques, and about 25 minutes (the attendant having never seen them, despite being right beside an airport!) I was told that this would be acceptable. I was told to make the cheque payable to (pr.) 'ee-zee-mart' and, naturally, I subsequently wrote "Easy Mart". The woman took one look at the cheque and said, "No, no, no, [pr.] ee-zee-mart!" She was already a little annoyed with me for causing her to have to phone head office, and my apparent ignorance of this company's corporate identity seemd to tip her over the edge. Anyway, I was confused: I thought I had written what she had asked for!

Of course, the problem was that the company was named "EZ Mart" which, in Scotland, would be pronounced ee-zed-mart. I informed the lady of this interesting linguistic situation and she consoled me by saying that "Gee, you speak real good English for somebody from Scotland!" :eek:

The whole experience suddenly made sense!! :rolleyes:

Isn't diversity great!

- pinks

shadowfax

May 18, 2003, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by pinks
a. nee'oo-or-leenz

b. loo-ee-zee-anna

Also, "foyer" isn't a widely used term in the US, where they generally use the term "lobby."

I did get into a spot of linguistic bother when I was visiting Texas a couple of years ago.

I wanted to pay for some petrol at the petrol station with a travellers cheque. Now, after a few quizical looks, subsequent phoning of head office to confirm that they could accept travellers cheques, and about 25 minutes (the attendant having never seen them, despite being right beside an airport!) I was told that this would be acceptable. I was told to make the cheque payable to (pr.) 'ee-zee-mart' and, naturally, I subsequently wrote "Easy Mart". The woman took one look at the cheque and said, "No, no, no, [pr.] ee-zee-mart!" She was already a little annoyed with me for causing her to have to phone head office, and my apparent ignorance of this company's corporate identity seemd to tip her over the edge. Anyway, I was confused: I thought I had written what she had asked for!

Of course, the problem was that the company was named "EZ Mart" which, in Scotland, would be pronounced ee-zed-mart. I informed the lady of this interesting linguistic situation and she consoled me by saying that "Gee, you speak real good English for somebody from Scotland!" :eek:

The whole experience suddenly made sense!! :rolleyes:

Isn't diversity great!

- pinks and i'm stuck in this hell hole! :rolleyes:

Doctor Q

May 19, 2003, 10:15 PM

:eek: Somebody please call the grammar police! Jennifer Garner opened the ABC 50th Anniversary TV show tonight by saying "As one of the recent members of the network family, welcome to the ABC 50th Anniversary Celebration."

tazo

May 20, 2003, 12:03 AM

ad-ver-ties-mint or ad-ver-tiz-mint

i say it the first way, although I hear the 2nd used frequently on tv shows.

Ugg

May 20, 2003, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by tazo
ad-ver-ties-mint or ad-ver-tiz-mint

i say it the first way, although I hear the 2nd used frequently on tv shows.

Same here, I'm pretty tolerant of different pronunciations but ad ver tiz mint drives me crazy. We say ad ver ties, not ad ver tiz.

tazo

May 20, 2003, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by Ugg
Same here, I'm pretty tolerant of different pronunciations but ad ver tiz mint drives me crazy. We say ad ver ties, not ad ver tiz.

Exactly, I do not hear that a lot around here, but I tend to hear it frequently if you talk to people from the east coast out to about minnesota. that central area to the east coast.

lmalave

May 20, 2003, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
noo-OR-linz? NOO-or-leenz? loo-e-zee-anna? looz-e-anna?

I thought it was "Nawlins".

tazo

May 20, 2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by lmalave
I thought it was "Nawlins".

nawlins is for drunk sailors from the south pacific. I thought it was always 'new-or-leans'

MacFan25

May 20, 2003, 05:11 PM

i dont know if this has been posted or not, but it gets on my nerves whenever people say senence, instead of sentence. :eek: :D

tazo

May 20, 2003, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by MacFan25
i dont know if this has been posted or not, but it gets on my nerves whenever people say senence, instead of sentence. :eek: :D

I admit I had to say that one a few times in my head before I got it :P That also annoys me. I hear people say nukular a lot instead of nuclear, but then again look at who is modeling that :eek: :eek:

shadowfax

May 20, 2003, 05:31 PM

i brang my lunch today... :rolleyes:

tazo

May 21, 2003, 09:10 AM

I hate it when people say 'libel' as lih-bell, as opposed to its corect usage lie-bull

Doctor Q

May 21, 2003, 09:20 PM

No "words that just shouldn't be" list could possibly be considered complete without a mention of pompatus, made famous by the song The Joker by the Steve Miller Band. I did a little reading and discovered this story (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_065.html), which is a plausible explanation of how Steve Miller misheard and reused the made-up word puppetutes (note: spelling unclear, since it was sung but never written down) from a 1950's R&B song.

In any case, I think we could get along just fine without the word pompatus.

Doctor Q

Jun 1, 2003, 06:47 PM

Why do we all say cut and paste when we usually mean copy and paste? Example: "It's easy to cut and paste an e-mail address from a MacRumors post into your web browser." But I'm not referring just to MacRumors members. Everyone seems to say cut when they mean copy.

Ugg

Jun 1, 2003, 07:10 PM

Cut and paste is a holdover term from pre computer days when you literaly cut and pasted. Copy and paste even sounds a little funny now that I think about it, it should be something like copy and move.

shadowfax

Jun 1, 2003, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
Why do we all say cut and paste when we usually mean copy and paste? Example: "It's easy to cut and paste an e-mail address from a MacRumors post into your web browser." But I'm not referring just to MacRumors members. Everyone seems to say cut when they mean copy. cutting and pasting works fine too. i can cut an address from safari and paste it into an IM or a post window and it works like copying :)

but i guess technically cutting only works with editable text like that, so whatever. just an odd mannerism.

wdlove

Jun 1, 2003, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
cutting and pasting works fine too. i can cut an address from safari and paste it into an IM or a post window and it works like copying :)

but i guess technically cutting only works with editable text like that, so whatever. just an odd mannerism.

Yes, I also use cut and paste alot in my Diary and Journal in Filemaker Pro, and in Word. It's a very important function to me! I would say that I do more cut and paste than copy and paste!

Doctor Q

Jun 11, 2003, 07:30 PM

Today, an ad I noticed at the top of a web page at a well-known website (in case you're curious, it's MacRumors!) said

Select your system and press go!

There was indeed a Go button, but I didn't happen to be using a touch screen monitor, so all I got were more fingerprints on the glass. I think it would be more appropriate for a web form to tell you to click a button rather than to press it.

Meanwhile, I hear people mention that they dialed 9-1-1 to report an emergency and I hear ads telling me to dial 1-800-CALL-ATT for my collect calls, even though I can't seem to find a dial on my telephone!

I guess I just have trouble following simple directions. ;)

Sun Baked

Jun 11, 2003, 07:42 PM

I really hate the PC crowd and/or the twisting of classic meanings of words.

It's gotten to the point that you can no longer take pleasure in being the first to plunge your torch into the mound of ******s piled under the heretic tied to the stake.

Say that in the wrong bar nowadays and you're liable to be the flaming heretic tied to the stake. :rolleyes:

Ugg

Jun 11, 2003, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Sun Baked
I really hate the PC crowd and/or the twisting of classic meanings of words.

It's gotten to the point that you can no longer take pleasure in being the first to plunge your torch into the mound of ******s piled under the heretic tied to the stake.

Say that in the wrong bar nowadays and you're liable to be the flaming heretic tied to the stake. :rolleyes:

Now, now, language is very elastic and the meaning of words changes all the time. The International Herald Tribune had an article about correct usage today. Bush (yes, again) had used the word continuous instead of the more proper contiguous when stating that the Palestinian state should be all one piece. The IHT (a rather conservative rag based in Paris) went on to say that continuous is perfectly fine and don't get all bent out of shape because we know what he meant and, they said, as it turns out continuous is perfectly acceptable according to the dictionary.

Ok, yes, continuous works but when you're talking about one of the most volatile regions of the world, it would be good to have your ps and qs in order. Nonetheless, I agree that continuous is perfectly fine.

PS Since when has the word ****** ever been in use in the US outside of the occasional Brothers' Grimm Fairytale?

Sun Baked

Jun 11, 2003, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by Ugg
PS Since when has the word ****** ever been in use in the US outside of the occasional Brothers' Grimm Fairytale? A new sci-fi novel of all places... from the plunge onwards.

The twisting of words is getting a tad out of hand, we all know what the people mean. But now they grab a lawyer and seek big money.

Bush however is really butchering the dictionary and the English language, and we all though the spud flap was bad.

Now we have a President who would do far worse in the spelling bee. ;)

Excuse me Mr. President, what was that last new word you invented? could you spell that?

Foxer

Jun 12, 2003, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by Ugg
The International Herald Tribune had an article about correct usage today. Bush (yes, again) had used the word continuous instead of the more proper contiguous when stating that the Palestinian state should be all one piece. The IHT (a rather conservative rag based in Paris) went on to say that continuous is perfectly fine and don't get all bent out of shape because we know what he meant and, they said, as it turns out continuous is perfectly acceptable according to the dictionary.

The IHT is wholly owned by the NY Times. It is published out of Paris, but all the articles are off the Time's wire, as are the editorials. Until a couple years ago, it was a joint-op btw the Times and Washington Post. I sought it out daily while an expat in order to get the crossword puzzle and box scores.

So I don't know what your definition of "conservative rag" is, but it ain't the NY Times. Unless your source of news is the Village Voice or L'Monde.